Zenos went to the end of the universe just to throw hands. Like honestly, respect for always keeping your goals as a priority. a very inspirational character.
What's always interested me about Zenos is that he's never been just a bloodthirsty brute. For all his complete boredom at the world and bloodlust, back in SB what got me was when we first got his interest in Doma, he suddenly switched to talking in downright poetic terms. "For the time between the seconds, for the sole pleasure left to me in this empty, ephemeral world." And it's a trend he continued, when he talks about drinking a sea of souls while looking at the moon in the last patch before Endwalker, he speaks in iambic pentameter. Zenos has always been portrayed as extremely intelligent, but not in the usual strategic villain intelligence. He's always indicated this philosophical side to him, and while in SB and ShB it was easy to just say he's wrong, actually putting his nihilistic philosophies to the test in EW actually proves them right. His counter to Jullus is honestly spot on and even when Allisae fires back, she doesn't poke holes in his beliefs, she just calls him a dick and points out that he could be spot on but nobody will care if he keeps being a dick. Similarly, his philosophy perfectly contrasts Meteion's, and actively argues _for_ life despite his destructive tendencies. His final words are, again, really poetic but also surprisingly poignant. "In these fleeting moments, there is a spark. Blinding, brilliant... gone too soon." Zenos is straight up depressed when we first meet him, much like Hermes and Meteion. But while their beliefs translate into not thinking life has a point so we shouldn't bother, Zenos believes that even in the darkest despair, there _is_ a spark that can be found, and that devoting oneself to that spark is how we rise out of despair and make life worth it. By the end, he actively champions the idea that this spark can be anything for anyone, for us it's the heroic cause, for him it's the thrill of his life hanging in the balance. Such things don't need artificial justification like mortality or justice, that's the mistake the empire made. The desire alone is what justifies action, individual self-actualisation. We don't save Ethyris because it's moral, we save Ethyris because we want to, that's enough. That's our spark.
This is really well stated and explains why Ive always loved him so much. Ive seen a lot of stuff on people choosing the opposition speech options in the end...but I like to think I chose right. Acceptance, at last...
"His counter to Jullus is honestly spot on and even when Allisae fires back, she doesn't poke holes in his beliefs, she just calls him a dick and points out that he could be spot on but nobody will care if he keeps being a dick." I think you're right in that based on his previously stated philosophy Zenos wouldn't care that most other people wouldn't care about him being a dick. But the part of that message that got through to him was the fact that if nobody cared that would also include the WoL, the one person he does care about in his weird Zenos way.
Reading this reminds me that Armstrong from Metal Gear Rising also desired something similar to what Zenos strives for. He wanted to create a world where the people living there can do the things THEY THEMSELVES want or believe are right. Not do things because someone else says so, nor because of a social construct like general justice and morality, but because of what they personally desire and believe in
Those moments lying on the ground with Zenos brought tears to my eyes. What he said just made me think about how we weren't so different. About what could have been if he had simply been born to a family that loved him. In that moment, despite everything he had done, all the atrocities he committed, I wanted to comfort him.
he is us if we didn't have the scions we would travel, hunt, and eventually lose all emotional connection to those around us... you know this suddenly sounds like alot of the wow players now that i think about it they hunt for more and more power but alot of them have stopped caring about the story and characters in wow... that makes me sad not gonna lie
Zenos is also the first to answer Meteion's question with a real answer. not one covered in the bias of a life of pain, or apathy. He answered Jullius when asked why he did what he did. he responded with "would it be better had i a reason" but after that, he continues and says, in far more words, that everyone makes their own purpose in life. he knew the answer to the question before we even knew the question was being asked.
It really makes the philosophical spectrum of Endwalker clear. On one axis you have good and evil, and on the other hope and despair. the good-hope extreme is the WoL and Vanat, and on the good-despair extreme is Hermes. On the evil - hope extreme is Zenos, and on the Evil - Despair extreme is Amon.
@@shillinhite3911 No, it's that Zenos has found his meaning and whether it inconveniences others or not is irrelevant. Unlike the Scions, the world at large isn't part of his meaning save for one person. Besides, it's not like the Scions or the WoL can say they were never the cause of strife, even though they weren't trying to be assholes. What with the Crystal Braves and all.
As far as villains who got what they wanted, I'd put Ilberd on that list too. Ala Mhigo is free and the empire decimated, largely due to him setting Stormblood into motion.
You could also add Hermes to that list. He didn't want to end the world or himself, that was Fandaniel. He was simply frustrated by the hypocrisy of the ancients not holding themselves to the same standard as the lives they created and destroyed, and sought to address the issue in the most extreme way possible. He didn't want to destroy humanity, nor did he want to save it. His goal was for humanity to be tested and fairly judged. Whether humanity survived or not was irrelevant. Hermes got what he wanted the moment he set things in motion that fateful day in Elpis.
I know it’s probably because the asset was already there, but I love that the dinner with Zenos is the exact same as what you ate with Aymeric. It rly made the scene darker for me as a simp for both lol
I love how he thought black rose was "boring" and helped it not end the world. Also, doing the final fight with him as a WHM with the frilly pink level 89 set totally looked like an "I'm done with your shit" moment.
That might have made it worth it. I fought him as a steampunk Sage, frilly and pink would have been better. Honestly the only thing I felt at the end of that fight was "thank the twelve I'm done with this fool"
My favorites are the lalafels. There is nothing else quite like watching Zenos fold himself in half to punch a potato right in the face, no effs given. Sorry for the ten months later response, but I wanted to share.
Nearing the end, I've been wondering how Zenos will factor in the overall story. He did not disappoint! And that quip about "Why does it still live...?" made me chuckle and realize how much respect for our power Zenos has that it surprised the latter that the Endsinger still lives.
I adored how his story went, but I really felt bad for giving him such a lonely grave. I just..... I know he wouldn't care if that was his grave but I would like to honor our friendship more than just leaving his corpse at the end of everything and alone.
I disagree seeing as its the farthest he's ever been. I'd see it as "you came all this way for your fight, I'm not taking you from it" instead of a disrespectful thing. Instead I liked to see it as acknowledging how far he went for his goal
Here's a bit of a brain nibble for you, then. The universe has no end. What we are fighting at is at the edge... of a new day, the very beginning, so I have hope that Zenos' soul will find its way back and be reborn into a life that is happy. Gods know that poor sod deserves it after everything he went through. So, not the end, a beginning, as a new day dawns.
Some folks were also questioning why we couldn’t just “walk away” at the end of the MSQ as Zenos implied. Realistically, this is just an all around bad idea. Zenos, at the end, is giving you every opportunity to fight him to the death with no stakes other than your own lives. That’s genuinely the nicest thing he’s ever done. You could walk away and he could go back to being a threat to your mental health and everyone around you just to get your attention- but instead he wants to give you a clean, cathartic break from everything. Even if your character doesn’t like him or doesn’t agree with him, there would be no better time to close out his chapter in the story of your life than right there.
what i took from the end was that the last area what big on how many people have their own meanings and purposes for living. So the last scene felt like our character acknowledging that This is his reason for living and denying that fight is along the same line of saying "your reason for living is bad" You just spend the past couple hours seeing how everyone has their own reasons to keep moving forward and all are valid in their own ways but immediately tell someone theirs is wrong though cause you dont like them just feels wrong to me
I disagree, we could literally meet him a week later after resting up a bit, getting back to full power. We'd be in the same position, arguably better knowing the people we've fought to save are safe and doing well, and just settle up then when we haven't just fought our way through unsurvivable terrain and pushed ourselves to our limits and beyond to save the universe from the ultimate threat. Hell, if we explained it to him in those terms, he'd be fine with it. It's not that I hate the idea of fighting Zenos, it's that I hate the idea of being _forced_ to fight Zenos here and now because the writers decided this was the time despite having Zenos himself say he wouldn't stop us if we wanted to walk away, which in my opinion my character had every right to want exactly that in this specific moment. If he'd just attacked us instead, fine, but they had him stand there talking at us in a moment where I definitely would have just been following a new friend I was pretty sure I'd never see again back to ones I thought I'd lost, safe in the knowledge that since Zenos was alive, he'd turn up again and we could settle things then.
I think Zenos stands out because we DON'T know everything about him too. Just like people IRL. You just don't get everyone's answers spelled out for you. People have paths and baggage we just don't get to see. His childhood has some windows into it but mostly he's an enigma. And I think Zenos is beautiful in that regard. We don't have all the answers. He's a mess. Do you accept that mess or ultimately reject him? The game doesn't force you to pick one or the other, like it does with other characters. Your character will, always, accept Gaius and Emet... but in the end, you can send Zenos off with a smile and understanding, or still reject him fully. The story doesn't change, but you do. This whole mess started because Hermes asked 'what gives life meaning' and Zenos has always been the one character with an answer: whatever you want. Find your spark and chase it. Looking for fate or outside meaning will always leave one empty. Zenos was great. I do hope this is the end of his arc - dragging him back I think would heavily diminish the character. It's time to let him rest. It's time to sever ties with our trying past.
All great points. Definitely something to be said for leaving some of the answers unknown. Nothing wrong with letting your audience draw their own conclusions.
The Zenos hate has always annoyed me. People often think "good" characters have to be complicated. And that's the genuis of Zenos - he's NOT complicated, he's not nuanced or shades of grey. Admittedly my love of Zenos started because I'm a sucker for the "villain is definitely in love with the hero but doesn't know what love is" trope, but it endured becasue I found his complete confidence in his goal and complete dedication to it interesting. People like Zenos exist - maybe not to the psychopathic world ending level, but there are absolutely people out there who are so single minded it hurts them and everyone around them. And since they've only known and cared about one thing their entire lives, eventually that thing becomes empty once they mastered it. Zenos didn't stand a chance to ever develop his own life outside of combat. His mother died in childbirth and his father saw him as a weapon. And so he became a weapon because it was the only path he was given. That of course led everyone to regard him with fear and hatred. He never knew love or laughter or friendship or anything beyond the single minded goal of the empire. But that goal was never HIS, and so he had to figure out his own reason for living within the confines of the world her was raised in. When he meets us, that's the first time he feels anything at all, ever. Imagine if your entire existence had been the same tone, the same level, the same emptiness, the same shade of beige for your entire life. And then suddenly you see color and feel joy and taste the best foods - you're going to become obsessed with it. Also, everyone seems to forget Zenos never WANTED to survive Stormblood. He really did believe he was going to die when he killed himself. And he did that because at the time he knew there was nothing that would ever feel as good again, and enduring the bland life he'd had before would become even more insufferable. He had tasted ambrosia, and to go back to water would be toture. Zenos didn't survive on purpose - he didn't know he could switch bodies, it just happened. So then he had to find a new goal, a new purpose. And that led us to Endwalker and the incredible Endwalker experience. He rode the light of the stars to us, that's pretty amazing. Another thing I haven't seen people talk about much is that the writing team managed to give us an AMAZING team up between the Warrior of Light and Zenos WITHOUT having to change the essence of Zenos' character. They don't try to make him a good guy, they don't give him a redemption arc. And I love that so much. I don't know if they'll bring Zenos back or not, and I'm not sure which outcome I hope for. I kind of like the idea that he's this entity that's always around and not really an ally but not our main focus either. None of us can solve every problem and "Defeat" every bad person in our lives - sometimes we have to learn to forge ahead in spite of them, and I think that's an interesting way to interpret Zenos, though it's not the only way nor is it my favorite. Sorry for the novel, but all of that to say - Zenos was always interesting, and they really took his path an incredibly interesting direction. I also think the void stuff will be the theme of the next bit arc - whether that includes Zenos or not I can't say, but I DO think they've hinted at it enough with the Sky Pirate raid and now reapers that there is DEFINITELY more there. I can't wait to see where this goes. Also, great video!
Don’t apologize for sharing your thoughts. I’m sorry it took me so long to get to this one! I think Zenos could return in an interesting way but they definitely need to give Endwalker’s impact time to breathe. Don’t cut his death down to size by bringing him back so soon, you know? I’m confident the writers will handle it well. Shadowbringers and Endwalker were top notch so I’m not worried. Thanks for sharing!
zenos....upfront was one deminsional...but in reality he is in my opinion the yin vs yang of us.. If the warrior of light is us doing the journey...zenos was more of the "us who finished the game and been waiting for something more exciting and or was losing interest and WoL is the thing/person who brings that interest back". to me he is the exact if not perfect representation of players who once things are done sit there and complain or be bored of "nothing to do" type until a close friend comes around and says "hey lets do this..."together"" and jump and be like let do this!" and even when things go south he be the one laughing because in the end to him it wasn't the winning or losing...it was the Fun of being with like minded people
Zenos reminds us that the warrior is a person and what the player ("should" hope to do). His purpose is to remind us of that. Also yeah, I wish people realized that zenos definitely loves WOL. It doesn't need to be from positive emotions. The strong emotional attachment is there for him. WOL makes him feel. Black romance/romantic rivalry is not that hard to understand. I never saw zenos as one dimensional. Hes just straightforward and not complex. I wouldn't even say hes the worse villain: unpopular opinion, but that's the annoying cliche blue birb girl. Zenos is definitely an antagonist to the world, but hes the WOL personal antagonist
His jubilant pursuit of his goal in life and his joy in completing his goal, and his embrace of his coming demise is the clearest, most obvious refutation of the "villain" of Endwalker, even though he's "evil" by most standards, Zenos still offered the best answer of anyone to "the question" of the entire expansion/story.
why the hell is evil in quotation marks? He's a mass murdering sociopath. I DO however think it was a genius writing moment to show that finding purpose and value in your live doesn't necessarily make you a good person.
@@Keira_Blackstone I'd say he is beyond good and evil. He said it himself if he did all of that for a good reason would it change anything? No so he is really just Neutral. A very dark neutral but he isn't good or evil. He's just doing his own thing for that 1v1.
@@Keira_Blackstone Zenos puts it in his own words, what makes an action evil or good is wholly dependent on whether it benefited the observer or not. Did Jullus and his people ever condemned the Garlemald for putting provinces into slavery? No. Because it benefitted their ego as a Garlean. Does that make Jullus and his people evil? To us and Eorzeans, most likely yes; to Garleans, absolutely not. Jullus lashed out at Zenos for committing evil things and destroying his own country, not even realizing the hypocrisy of his pride as a Garlean for embracing how he has contributed to the likely destruction of other countries. It's only bad because Zenos had done it to them, when Zenos did it to any other country but Garlemald, they barely minded.
The fact that Zenos effectively defeated Meteion (he helped, ok) is kind of inspiring as someone who has suffered from depression. We are often told there's so much to live for, but like Zenos, perhaps you really only need one thing to live for. Maybe don't make it something that involves your own happiness coming at the expense of others, but whether it's your art, a pet, or someone you care for, it's better to have that connection than to succumb to despair.
It’s so easy to miss. He mentions it during the epilogue in the Rising Stones but only if you talk to him again after the initial required conversation. We need New Game+ so we can revisit it.
I've held long before Endwalker that Zenos was less a mirror to the Warrior of Light and more a mirror to the player - he is the kind of person that many competitive players are. Uncaring for the world they enter, uncaring for the people around them, only coming to fight, and fight, and fight, and continuing to do so simply for the thrill of it or for their own selfish desires, no matter what implication that has on the world. Endwalker kept this - with a lot of his lines hitting way harder in this lens - but as you mentioned, he also becomes a wonderful foil to both Meteion and the WoL themselves.
Zenos: "What of you, my mirror? Born into this world, bestowed a name, bid to seek out strife and adventure." "Did you find...fulfillment?" I read line 1, as being directed at the player character. Born into FFXIV, bestowed a name by the player. Controlled by the player to seek battle and adventure. And, line 2 as being directed at the player: did you, the player, find fulfillment in the FFXIV
Through the entirety of Endwalker, I always felt like Zenos was talking not to the WoL but to the player directly. I mean, in the Endsinger cutscene he literally breaks the 4th wall to get in. Not exactly the most subtle of hints.
When Zenos chased me down to the edge of the universe and came crashing through the shield like the Kool-Aid man just for his damn 1v1.... he earned my admiration and the ass whooping that was coming his way 😂. I thought it was a great end to this arc of the Zenos story (I don’t think he is truly gone just yet).
The devs said he is, so unless they change their minds... I heard they also said they had a hard time with what to do with Zenos in this expansion, so I don't see them willingly bringing him back.🤔 But you're free to keep hoping ofc.😜
I hope he's done only because that was, I think, a perfect ending for him. The "come back to life to fight again" has already been done for him after all.
Zenos 100% became worthy of being the final fight at the end. His character growth through Endwalker is what ultimately drove me to want to finally fight him. The final battle was extremely satisfying as well and they pulled out all the stops. By the way I also wanted to add amazing stuff and great video. You have great story telling skills! Keep it up. :)
The final battle was great for me. The build up over the expansion worked and it really felt like a decade of stories wrapping up in one duty. And thank you for the kind words. I'll try and top this one with something else soon!
I was fairly hesitant during the last quarter of EW, but the moment his Solo Duty came up, I was absolutely brimming with excitement. FINALLY! a Reaper vs Reaper 1on1! Loved it
Admittedly it felt a bit fast paced for me, but I won’t say I didn’t have fun in that final fight. To me he earned it and we couldn’t let him return with us.
@@acgearsandarms1343 I honestly would have wanted to, but it would also be a disservice to him after all the character growth. Our only reward for his growth is to give him what he has always wanted. A fight that will burn through the candle of his life, anything less would be an insult.
I'm playing with French voiceover, and the voice of Zenos made him very endearing for me. He has a gentle tone, soft, caring voice, and it's so diagonally opposed with his ruthless personality. I loved that he doesnt do evil things for a good or evil motive, but rather a personal satisfaction only. Sure he despised most people, but only because they fell below his expectations, constantly. His plans and schemes only had one goal : Find the ultimate opponent, worthy of his respect and admiration. The most uncomplicated motive, no plans within a plan, and yet he was the fiercest opponent.
Sad thing is, Zenos really could have gotten what he wanted sooner and with a lot less trouble. If only he had seen that the Warrior of Light was more than just a hero. An easy mistake to make because of the circumstances of their meetings in Stormblood. Why else are you helping the rebels liberate Ala Mhigo? Zenos was THE BAD GUY. So he decides to be THE BAD GUY. But you weren't there just to be the hero. The WoL is a thrill seeking adventurer. The WoL got roped up into this whole mess to help his friends. Ala Mhigo was no different, even though it was a just cause. And that is why Zenos is ultimately bamboozled and ignored when he done everything he could as THE BAD GUY.
I think a big chunk of it his to do with his upbringing. As a young man he used to read epic tales and dream about facing off against a “mighty hero” that could push him to his limits it battle. Being the single-minded person unshackled by morals that he is, he likely had more than enough insight into the plight of Garlemald vs the rest of the world to realize that the other continents saw them as the “bad guys” (he even has the wherewithal to call Jullus out on how hypocritical the Garlean justifications for expansion and conquest were), and knew that leaning into the role would inspire heroes to rise up against him. That’s more or less the plot of SB; Zenos playing the role of the bad guy for no other purpose than to create his perfect opponent, and then- having found that in you- spending the end of his life in combat as opposed to depending/atoning for his mistakes. I think his upbringing would have to change drastically in order for him to find fulfillment in any way other than what went down from SB through EW.
@@DioDinero I think its also the fact that he never got the opportunity to learn how human relationships really work, both due to his isolated upbringing as well as his socialization as royalty in an empire where you just take what you want. He saw no other way to get the Warrior of Light to acknowledge him, other than just forcing them to face him by creating a world threatening catastrophe, until Alisaie just points it out to him that he just could do something nice for the WoL and maybe get something nice in return. Which is really the sad part of his character, that this had to be pointed out to him.
I think it is worth noting that in replays... that the questions Zenos asks ALMOST the EXACT same as thing Venat! Venat asks "Has your journey been good? Has it been worthwhile?" and the answer is interrupted. Zenos asks "what of you adventurer?... was this life a gift or a burden?... did you find fulfillment?" And when Zenos goes to continue he just... "I..." and dies. The parallel is UNMISTAKABLE. imho (and a little meta... as it always feels like YoshiP asking. ;P )
Zenos, from day one, has always represented the manifestation of depression to me. As someone who suffers from clinical depression, I have experienced considerable difficulty finding meaning in anything. Zenos's character absolutely speaks to that feeling. The incessant boredom, the lack of interest in almost everything. Zenos is depression. What they did with him... giving him that one sole focus (fighting the WoL) also spoke to my experience. Just hanging in there, waiting for that one spark to brighten the world a bit and give direction, to give purpose. This video,as well as the other Zenos video, truly do him justice. I appreciate it in ways I can't express. Thank you.
Zenos felt like a medium to address the player directly, so while he may not come off to some people as a great story villain, he does make the player think not just our character. Not just him but several characters ask in their own way if we found meaning in things. If we enjoyed our part of the story. So in that regard I think he was miles ahead of characters like Ran'jit who just didn't have any real arc or noticible depth beyond what we are shown directly. Though his last words do imply there was something we just never got to see.
I absolutely love how his role in the story serves as a contrast to Meteion’s gloomy perspective. While he might not be the most well-written or in-depth character, his role in the story serves as a way that you can still have unfleshed out villain and still have him be amazing as his role in the whole grand scheme of things.
I remember how there was just a "switch" in my mind during Zenos's talk with Julius. That single line "Would you be happier if I had a better reason" made me sit straight up in my chair and realize that there was more to Zenos's thought processes than just chaos and carnage.
I thought Zenos' story was an analysis of friendship. If the WoL hadn't have made friendships with the Scions, much of the things he has done would've never happened. They never would've given him the teleporter or used it to get him to safety. Zenos had none of those things, and he was left there to die, all alone... I honestly felt terrible for him
@@StoutHelm he wanted to die after his big fight, he sees no point of going on after, as no fight could ever top this one. he thought much the same the first go around.
Aye, the simplistic nature of the character was really in service to the story and the writers utilized him quite well thematically. Video was pog, thanks for covering Zenos' portrayal in Endwalker and going a bit more into it, I love content like this!
@@StoutHelm I loved him dearly and his finale was everything I wanted. I am devastated to see him go but… it’s his time he has finished his story. I know some people want him to become a Scion…. Like again I love him… he’s done far to much evil for that to ever be accepted
Not sure he's Scion material, but I could see him operating on the sidelines just... doing his own thing, following his best buddy around, trying to understand why he cares so much for the commoners.
@@barubary218 more like he hasnt done anything to earn a place next to us, or the Scions. Let the poor soul rest.. he deserves it after his help with The end.
I actually "liked" Zenos in Stormblood. I appreciated that he was a simple villain with the upper hand. All the things he did made me hate him in a way where you love to hate him, and you seriously need to stop him. This reminded me in wrestling where it's 1 heel and 1 babyface feuding for the world championship. The build up to that final battle was one of the bright points in SB to me. When we got the payoff, post 4.0 Zenos was just a nuisance. And this hate for him wasn't like how it was, rather... Why are they trying to shove this guy down my throat? I was thrilled that we didn't have to worry about him in Shadowbringers. The way they wrote him in Endwalker though... I was surprised. This buildup, was refreshing. I legitimately didn't feel any hate for him by the end of EW, and he was like... The homie. So when the last trial was all said and done, how could you say no? This was the perfect setting. 1v1? No Primals? No Ascians? No War? Fuck yeah, lets go!
Challenging fights I always found the most fun, and continue to seek out more by playing the game. When Zenos asked that final question, I was like... "oh damn... i cannot deny that..." It was like he was asking me, "why do you even play this game and continue to do so?" like, he's playing the game too out of enjoyment.
I want to add some of my interpretation to Zenos’s speech in Ultima Thule. It doesn’t only have to apply to battle for those players who like to take the slow life approach or are interested in other activities. They all have their own form of challenge and satisfaction associated with them. It’s an adventure with fulfillment as well. Crafting, mahjong, racing, etc. Each has a challenge to overcome that gives each individual a sense of satisfaction.
My favourite part about Zenos' speech towards Jullus is that the scene happens so soon after the Elpis part of the story We just saw a guy broke down because he felt that life had no meaning and projected that onto his daughter. Then, of all people, its _Zenos_ who had things figured out; no one is born with meaning so you should decide for yourself rather than ramble on about hopelessness and it doubles as a brutal critique on Garlemald's culture of justifying its years of invading and colonizing other nations as some kind of "greater good" born out of a misplaced sense of victimization
He got what he wanted, but I'm not sure it was what he expected. He was disappointed to have been defeated again. I can't help but shake the feeling he still has one more act to play in FFXIV.
I do think he died not really understanding the Warrior but his final speech shows us he really wanted to. He had more to say, wish we could’ve gotten it. Maybe he’s not done. We’ll see.
The scene where he takes over your body, I just couldn't take it seriously on my first go through EW, because I was playing a lalafell dressed up as a dwarf. Just those expressionless glowing eyes glaring at the nameless imperial was just too funny. But that's just the beauty of it all.
My start into FF was with one note villains so I've never had a problem with Zenos. The more they revealed the more I felt he was a victim rather than a villain in fact. Given that Emet didn't care for his grandson (Varis) it stood to reason that Varis, never receiving love or recognition from family, would not impart any onto his own son. The whole world just seemed designed to make Zenos miserable and lonely. No love from family, people want him dead BECAUSE of who he is related to, he's unnaturally large, his height surpassing that of the Elezan and Au'ra meaning that he could never foster any interest 'outside' of combat because everything was just too small. (Go to Mor Dhnoa to the upstairs kitchen there's a lalafell stirring a bowl lamenting how everything is sized as she stands on a stool. And its the same from the other end for Zenos.) In fact Zenos seems to be an opposite of Vauthry, a baby who never got a say, condemned to a life that would end in death and misery. But while Vauthry was hailed a savior and protector by the misinformed, Zenos was reviled as a monster and hated/feared at large. I know Zenos did terrible things, but he certainly is a villain that I pity.
FFXIV felt like a philosophy lesson to me The main question was despair (Song of Oblivion) and finding a reason for living The WoL's journey answers this by confronting conflict and suffering and accepting these exists, but to not give up anyway. To find joys in the little things, building happiness with others or for yourself, perhaps later losing it, but starting over again anyway. Zenos is this philosophy taking a dark turn by only living for the little things that make him personally happy. FFXIV shows that this route will give you a working reason to live, but will isolate you. Not seeking to understand others, blindly pursuing your personal enjoyment, and basically saying "this is my life to live let me do as I want" while still keeping within the tenets of "suffering exists, but live for the little happiness" similar to the WoL leads to an empty existence, as shown by Zenos saying his life was lonely The difference between the 2 modes of living life can be summarized in Answers: "Answer together", and in Venat's words "They are my meaning my purpose my love" Zenos is basically an Azem, who didn't learn how to love. He traveled, he fought, he adventured, but he never made connections. Meeting the WoL and seeing similarities with him (in strength) made him feel a connection possibly for the 1st time in his life. No wonder he appeared so clingy. Interestingly as well, the only time he was actually able to make proper progress towards his wish was by 1. Agreeing to help Kryle in Sharlyan (Imagine him defending people and working with Loporrits), whereafter he was given access to the remains of the mother crystal to follow the WoL to the edge of the universe, and 2. Helping the WoL defeat the Endsinger got him his fight. My current head cannon is that Zenos was actually trying out helping the scions earlier on, but got rejected by Alisaie, her (much like everyone, and understandably so) probably not seeing his actions as an actual attempt to try out helping. The man had high IQ after all, but low EQ. Maybe the guy was in his youth just always misunderstood, and eventually ended up deciding fk it, I'll live for myself. Sorry for the wall of text. FFXIV just makes my almost middle aged self regress back to a university student
Don’t apologize for big comments, I do my best to try and read them. And maybe Zenos is a piece of Azem somehow. I couldn’t begin to tell you how he traveled from a reflection to the source but I don’t think it’s impossible.
"Never have I understood those around me. Understood their obsessions. Besieged by their banality, the world was a mire of tedium and trivialities. But in these fleeting moments, there is a spark. Blinding, brilliant. Gone… too soon." - The moment every introvert who's ever lost themselves in MMOs somehow felt a bond with a ruthless, genocidal psychopath.
Zenos is honestly one of my favorite villains from FF14. His ending was perfect. I was honestly very touched by the way his story wrapped up, especially when I realized that he was the one who saved me when I had no more strength to save myself.
Ironically I actually want him to return, it feels like his story arc was at this point a turning point more than an ending. The thing is... Zenos is what id describe as the Sesshomaru type of antagonist if you use Inuyasha as an example, he repesents apathy that later becomes empathy. There is some very tiny part of him a spark that could in turn eventually bloom into a humanity that is actually genuine. But its that same reason, I believe he needs his moment ot shine -again-. Did he die, yes, but heres the thing, death isnt the end in 14, and his body remains lost without any way of returning at the end of the universe, his corpse dwells but Zenos soul may very well still be roaming somewhere. Not only this, but Zenos has hardly let death end him for good before, hes always been able to defy the emptiness of naught. Its why one day, im hoping to see an ominous cinematic of the sound of footsteps, a lone scythe, and no body. Zenos to me deserves what id call a dark redemption arc, he doesnt need to be a good person but he would certainly make a compelling anti-hero that acts as a reluctant distant aide to the warrior helping defeat foes to gain strength, experience and power for yet another cosmic rematch. Only this time, he actually becomes somewhat more redeemed and willing to help people in need, if mainly to serve his own end of finding ever greater foes to satisfy his hunger. Also, to who could be his companion on that journey? We kinda already might know... which I believe will inavoidably be Meteion. Theres an irony and perfect contrast that the most hopeless bird who sought hope meets the most mirthless warrior seeking purpose and complete each other, she is enough of a person that he might find something actually worthy of protecting, if not out of love for something, out of amusement at her naievete. She may in turn teach him that now she has learned the wols lesson, there are things worth caring about, and the two can only find them together if he seeks to do things the right way this time. Its a pipe dream of mine, but seeing those two together one day approaching us would complete them imho.
really great vid; did a good job of going over what made me love zenos so much. i distinctly remember talking to a friend while i was around level 82 in the msq about how what i wanted was a final battle with zenos at the end of the universe once everything else had been concluded, as a way to finish of the story with a final wonderful moment. imagine my reaction when i got exactly what i wanted. really a moment i wish i could relive
My man! I wrote in the previous video about Zenos and how you should add this current knowledge into it. You replied saying you were working on it and here we are! Heck yeah, I love it
I played the entire story in about a month, and I LOVE Zenos. The guy is up for the ride in *hopes* of finding someone or something that makes him feel alive, and when he sees a glimmer of hope in the WoL you see him starting to show more emotion, killing his father after discovering he was planing on releasing a weapon that would decimate everyone silently, the WoL included (specifically for us does he do it). Then he’s along for Fandaniel’s ride in hopes of getting a rematch with us, and ultimately, he’s along for Krile’s ride to get what he wants! He is extremely simple minded, and I think that’s his charm. He just wants to fight your all with his all in an epic setting, until either one is dead, that’s it.
My theory is that Zenos was always planned to be an in-lore mirror to the hardcore raider kind of players. Those that literally only care about the hardest bossfights, the hardest encounters, the greatest challenges. Zenos is the mirror to the people that love games like Dark Souls. Raiders and Souls-Players alike usually care little about stories, NPCs and all the other stuff around it. In that, they are exactly like Zenos. Zenos is the answer to the question: "What if we had a villain whose mindset is basically that of a hardcore raider?" But I think he is also meant to be a mirror to the general desire in players of MMOs to get better at the game, get to max level, get better gear, and the thrill of beating harder and harder fights. While not everybody, me included btw, finds Ultimate and Savage raiding worthwhile or has time for it, most people just enjoy the thrill of a bossfight they just won by the skin of their teeth. I remember the other night I did Aglaia and at the Rhalgar fight like everybody apart from me and 4 other folks decided to stand under the meteor and died when the fist came out of the wrong hoola-hoop. The Destroyer still had about 15%+ HP left but we somehow managed to hold out long enough to fill the third LB3 for the almost dead and very out-of-mana healer to rez everybody. The whole raid run went from "eh, lets farm some glam gear" to "Oh crap! Can we even do this?!" to "We can do this! YES! YEASSSSS!" and made it memorable. This. THIS! THIS is what Zenos is talking about when he calls us his mirror. This is why Zenos is such a perfect fit for the WoL's antagonist too. Zenos also answers the question: How would the WoL have ended up if he just cared about getting to Endgame and beat hard bosses? In the end Zenos is a very sad character really. But I am happy in how they handled him in Endwalker and the whole juxtaposition with the Endsinger. The Endsinger is the antithesis of hope. It is utter despair, nihilism, depression. Zenos is the epitome of selfishness but also manic-depression. The manic part only being active when he could lose his life in a fight. Or to put it in a slightly different viewpoint: The Endsinger is Nihilism (nothing matters, everything is pointless) while Zenos is Optimistic Nihilism (nothing matters, everything will eventually be gone anyway but since nothing matters anyway I can indulge myself / I can chose my own way free of worrying about the future since eventually everything I do will be forgotten anyway). What I also love about Endwalker is that Zenos and the Endwalker both in the end got their little redemption arcs. The Endsinger could be proven wrong and could change back to Meteion and find hope again. While Zenos could take Alisaie's words to heart and for once take an interest in the plight of another, even if it was only to have the reunion with the WoL. I mean he literally flew to the end of the universe to help you. So all that being said, yeah... Zenos Best Boi.
I always had a liking for Zenos. He was the bored, powerful person, the one who didn't look for it but was born into it. He feels unfulfilled in his life, and even attempts on his life were futile. His first murder as a kid, where he showed genius, he showed talent, revealing more than just some spoiled prince. Raised in hatred, caring only about what could make him happy, and that was conflict. He knew nothing but conflict and thus found joy only in that, no surprise the hell he was raised under by Varis who loved a dog more than his own son who he would rather be dead. Zenos grew into someone that I believe would end up this way after a point in their life. 26 years old and knowing only this? Yeah, no surprise. That's why I liked him. He wasn't 1 dimensional, except maybe in desire. He just had that kind of upbringing and made him the man he became. What EW did with him honestly was amazing and his "ending" was a little depressing. Not that it was poorly written, but that he seems to still feel unhappy, or realize that perhaps, this isn't what he wanted after all.
people didn't like this man in stormblood so they ignore any development he's had to whine about how he's a bad character because he doesnt have a sad backstory like every other xiv villain even when he calls this out in the story quest people are too busy complaining about him! dude jumped to my fav villain with the conversation with jullus and this video sums it up perfectly so bless you
Zenos is a fourth generational consequence of Solus and Varis' actions (and by extension the ascians in general). The product of all that power, slaughter and war mongering over obviously bulshit reasons produced a creature who only lived for violence for its sake after being surrounded by false motivations invented by its forebears with the hidden aim for his homeland to be an engine of chaos. It's like chinese whispers, but with family generations. I find it hilarious that both of Emet's proudest creations, the empires of Allag and Garlea, each produced a being who completely ruined the ascian's plans more than the WoL ever did.
Wish I found this video sooner. I could never put into words how Zenos affected me and my character. You, on the other hand, were able to put not just my feelings, but those of others, into perfect words. Thank you.
Zenos was a man driven by one thing: to find a fight he could relish. He ultimately got that in his final confrontation with the Warrior of Light. He's not complicated or has other motives, he didn't need them. From the onset, he was singularly driven, but in his pursuit he grew bored and uncaring to everything around him. You can see a glint of life in his eyes when he takes Fordola under his wing, sensing a familiar drive in her. Zenos isn't a master schemer like Emet-Selch. He isn't a master diplomat like Elidibus. He isn't a cunning strategist like Gaius. He isn't a leader like Solas or Varis. He didn't need to be, nor should he have been. Some of the greatest characters in fiction have been driven by a single urge. In the end, he ultimately became what the Meteia never could be: lost in despair then find a purpose to life. We meet him and he's essentially the Endsinger; bored and full of apathy. We, directly and indirectly, gave him a purpose to live. It's what makes him an intriguing character.
Exactly. He doesn’t need to be complex to fulfill a purpose in the story, a lot of people seem to miss that when compared to someone like Hermes or Emet-Selch.
Zenos and the WoL are truly 2 side of the same coin. both powerful, both head strong in their approach, both will not stop to achieve their goal....one will always fight for the sake of others, the other will always fight only for themselves...Zenos is not wrong to say the WoL must also enjoying the fight also. the WoL was an adventure...the whole reason one would be an adventure is because they want to seek challenge...in this sense, Zenos and the WoL are basically identical. they both seek thrilling challenge, but the way they going at it is totally different. when Zenos say the WoL is his "Mirror", he is not wrong
My WoL, in the end, regarded Zenos with equal friendship, with equal zeal, and he didn't wanna leave him behind in that void they both lay dying in. I like to think he's still with us. It's not realistic at all, and I acknowledge that it's pure fanfiction, but I like to imagine he latched onto our soul as we left using his Resonant powers, his consciousness traveling with us, no longer powerful enough to do anything of note, but able to be with us as a constant companion, similarly to how Ardbert did. Another voice in the WoL's increasingly crowded head...
I wonder how therapy sessions would go for our WoL. Your Idea reminds me Of Fantasy Star Online 2s Dark Falzs. When we gain there power There (Souls?) Are with us in our head....with funny side stories of them arguing, bickering, having fun within there sides of our heads. Get alot of stares, Some concerned some amused, after we come out of our head. So i can imagine this would be equally as Hilarious
Like how Midgardsormr and Ardbert are having a rent-free in WoL's mind? I like that though, it'd certainly bring more conversations to one's head. I mean Hydaelyn has moved out.
I just found your channel looking for lore on Garlemald and The Allagan Empire. I just wanted to say this is the most amazing analysis of one of my favorite characters in this game. People love to hate Zenos but ive always loved him since his introduction. This just made me fall in love with him even more.
My take on Zenos is he is effectively the WoL's mirror, similar but opposites. And the final fight captures that when he points out that we enjoy pushing ourselves to the limit just as much as him, which is great as the player cannot deny that about themselves. We fight harder versions of a boss for the thrill, all Zenos wants is WoL Ultimate for the same reason, which we oblige.
Zeno's is OUR foil, finding new ways to get stronger and pushing our character to higher limits, sometimes we lose sight of that with all our leveling of other classes, crafters etc or even simply completing the story and setting the game down no one but Zenos could there as the constant reminder. Endwalker also started out STRONG, giving us fights at the start we would normally only see at the end of an expansion. Zeno's simply is there to give us a reason to stake our entire strength to the end.
Actually really liked Zenos even in Stormblood, in a game where every villain had very good reasons to chase what they were after, and with the brains/plans to match, it was amazing to have that one guy who was extremely honest with what he wanted, and chased it with every fiber of his being shamelessly, especially since he was very much a reflection of the MC, a Champion/Hero/greatest warrior who was undefeated.(To the Garleans, Zenos was very much their Champion/National Hero-since he conquered in their name-though there is definitely a healthy dose of Fear in there as well)before he defected. To me, the scene where he sheathed his weapon and walked away from you on the moon, was the moment where I sort of fall in love with this amazing dynamic character, because while he is changing, he never wavered from his goal, he changed himself in order to chase after his goal, that alone is amazing. For anyone. This is not a villain stuck in his old ways of thinking, or limited by society/morality, or even his own capabilities, this is a character who is willing to better himself into the strongest, best version of himself, in order to share the best thing he knows in the world, with you. In the end, after I said "That, I can't deny." He replied "Acceptance. At long last." I smiled, because I actually felt happy for him. extra: Think about it this way, even before he made the flight to the end of the world, he ate Zodiark... for you, kinda crazy.
The smallest changes in his character end up changing him in significant ways for me. I was really meh on him in Stormblood but loved what they did with him.
I never hated Zenos as a character, i hated him as a person tho as i tend to go really into character and immerse myself with the world and the characters. So when i saw him i wasnt "urgh so annoying go away" rather i was "dang you zenos , im not your friend but il kick your ass anytime" and really felt joy when Alliese gave him a piece of her mind. And that final battle with him on the edge of the universe felt like a satisfying conclusion to his character. For that reason i dont want them to bring him back. Emet- selch on the other hand can come back any time , i never get enough of him.
I never really minded Zenos. Villians don't need to be these complex, morally grey characters with these lofty motivations. Sometimes, it's good to have a BBEG that's just simple, easy. "I want to fight you because it's the only time I've /felt something/." That's his motivation. That's it. And given the narrative in Endwalker, it actually /works/ just like you mentioned; it's the foil to Meteion. "Meanings in life is what YOU give it." I think people are uncomfortable with Zenos, because of a simple reason: He's a reflection of us. Not us, the player, but of our species. There are people, in the real world, that do terrible, horrible things. Unspeakable acts of evil and when asked, they simply say "Because I find it fun". We're uncomfortable with Zenos because he is, and likely unintentionally, a reflection of the worst our modern civilization has to offer. Single minded drive where one does unspeakable evil because it's "their spark". We don't understand these people, we recoil and shun them, but /they exist/. Endwalker made us confront this fact, and it's not an easy one. It's a sad, terrible, horrifying truth. It gives something to ponder on beyond the story of the game, and that, in and of itself, is amazing.
I think there is also kind of a community reason, why many people just couldn't warm up on Zenos: He as a character is supposed to be the mirror to a player who engages with the video games for the fun, thrill and challenge of it. And I think this just didn't stick because a majority of the playerbase in FF14 are not that interested in the challenging aspects of the game, most of them never enter savage or even just extremes and rather want to be engaged with the story. The FF14 Community in my opinion is kinda notorious in its aversion to challenging or competetive content.
Just a small correction: he doesn't do acts of evil 'because he finds it fun'. The opposite in fact. It's stated multiple times in SB he doesn't enjoy bloodshed, he finds it a waste. Heck he doesn't even find joy in fighting (his side story). If he found bloodshed fun he would have been happy. Zenos is quite suicidal but when he is brought to his knees it's when his entire body screams that he wants to live. That singular moment of facing his own mortality is when he feels that he should go on. It's the lifeline that keeps him going. "In darkness, seek joy". Battle so far is the only outlet that he found for that joy as he excelled in every other academic field. If he had been allowed to properly socialize as a kid he would have fared better (Varis tried to set playdates with children of other politicians so they'd become his future minions but Zenos didnt like that)
@@OracleGrouse He generally feels somebody who's talents and personality was fully wasted in the golden cage Varis build for him. Especially in his dying breath, it really comes off like he actually would have enjoyed to live a life more like the WoL, being able to travel the lands and seek challenges all across them. Instead he was used like a weapon by his father for most of his life. and I can totally see him not liking being set up with a bunch of snobby elite kids. He seems to be somebody who craves very honest and intimate relationships, which what Varis tried to set him up for wouldn't really give him. I also feel like thats why he had to die, because the other alternative after him having his personal revalation would have been to become a permanent ally to the WoL and I think the devs considered that step, even if it is consequential, to be too controversial, especially because they would have been forced to really deal with the fact that he is Aetherys most wanted criminal and his actions couldn't be forgiven to the world.
@@shizachan8421 Oh he quite despises snobby elites. His first scenes in SB show as much when he cuts down a general for sitting back and using his troops as cannon fodder while Zenos praises the low-rank soldier even though he ended up fleeing the battle. Also had more respect in Yotsuyu and Fordola than the other Garleans. In general, he has more respect for lower classes especially when they fight for respect and better conditions against the elites. He hates protocols and decorum as well as it 'makes people act like soulless puppets'. An opinion likely formed by the servant and maids that raised him
Just discovered your videos and am greatly enjoying them. The scene with Zenos and Jullus is my absolute favorite scene in Endwalker not only because it showcases Zenos' worldview perfectly, but because his response is a scathing dissection of Jullus'. Even then Jullus is looking for some sense of reason or motive that he can grab onto to understand how Zenos justifies what he did, and Zenos verbally slaps him in the face for it. Zenos knows what he's done is monstrous and he doesn't care, he did it for his own reasons and he basically insults Jullus because if he could be so influenced by the reasoning of another as to even potentially justify an act he so violently abhors that he's currently holding himself back from attacking Zenos in that moment, then he might as well be an unthinking beast. The idea that Jullus can't simply form his own opinion on the matter and that be enough is baffling to Zenos. And that's why Alisaie's comment actually works while anything Jullus said was completely ineffective, she acknowledged that how he lived his life up until that point had clearly worked for him and made no statement on it being incorrect, but instead pointed out that his current goal didn't involve only himself and his motivations but those of the WoL. She simply clarified something he had been confused about without trying to make him fundamentally alter his worldview. In the end Zenos is a very simply written character and that honestly what I like about him, he's not complex because he doesn't need to be. He's not meant to be the main enemy of the story, he doesn't need hidden motives and eccentric motivations. In that way he is actually a lot like a modern Hythlodaeus, he doesn't think of himself as overly important, he merely plays the bit part given to him to the best of his ability and is satisfied as such. He is fine being the side or dlc boss that you fight after the important story is done because it doesn't matter when he gets that fight as long as he gets it. I'd also like to point out something I found funny in that I don't think Zenos thought he would have a part to play against the Endsinger when he made the choice to help the Scions in Endwalker. I truly believe he thought the gesture alone of coming to our aid even if it wasn't needed would be enough to convince us to finally give him the fight he craved. And I think this because when he arrives and sees the Endsinger he says "I take it this is your prey. But why does it still live, surely it is no match for you." No one who knows or has heard of the WoL has the same level of confidence that Zenos has in you, even the Scions are worried sick about us and praying for our safe return while he sees the Endsinger's defeat as a forgone conclusion. I get why some people don't like him as a character, he's definitely not for everyone, but I love him and I don't get people who say he is a bad character, even before Endwalker. He is a simple villain and simplicity doesn't have to mean bad or boring and at least for me Zenos definitely wasn't either.~
Despite the choices you have to say to Zenos, I always believed my character to consider Zenos a friend. From Stormblood to Endwalker. And in the final moments, when Zenos finally came to understand us in his own way, I picked the first option. My character, losing sight of why he saw him as a friend in stormblood, seeing that Zenos finally understands, was the spark that made my character remember what he saw in him. And he embraced this final battle gladly, not as a hero and a villain, not as a soldier and a prince, but as two friends. Two enemies at the end of everything, giving each other their all in a final climactic battle.
Zenos fans stay winning, thank you for putting into words something I've been struggling to convay to others. Zenos loves the player but can only show it in the only way he knows how.
There's something more to Zenos calling us his mirror as well: Zenos throughout SB to EW is projecting really hard onto the WoL. He felt a connection with them but imagined the WoL to be an exact copy of them, values and feelings. But as he saw them more and more out of battle in EW, his perception of the WoL is shaken as they don't behave as he expected. And he's starting to doubt what he felt back in SB. And Alisaie words made him rethink *what* he had felt in common. Then he finds it. Though his statement before the duel can be interpreted from a gamer's pov, it's also a callback to the very first question asked to you when you start ARR: why did you choose to be an adventurer, why choose the path of seeking challenges and encountering foes? What Zenos is admitting in that moment is that he too has the soul of an adventurer. Which makes his final question even more tragic, asking the WoL if it's possible for beasts like them to find happiness...and he could have been happy all along if he had just left Garlemald. And for his 'lack of character depth', maybe it's easier to think that in English. I play in jp and his voice direction has a wider range of emotion (not just aggressively bored or battle horny, good performance from his VA but a lot of scenes are missing nuances because of it) and the contrast between his actions, his words and what emotions are leaking through his voice show the can of worm ready to be open and oh boi, is it a mess of repressed emotions. He feels a LOT but cant process them so he interprets everything as 'dull'
I think you’re right about not being able to express himself properly, but I think the writers did a better job of conveying that in Endwalker. There’s a meta joke in there somewhere lol
I always dug the potential Zeno had as an antagonist. The fact that he acknowledges my character as someone who always rises to greater challenges was a perfect way to let them finally let loose. It kinda felt like he was basically saying "It's alright to admit you're selfish, just this once." I had to reward him for seeing my character as an individual.
I honestly loved Zenos especially at the end. It was the first time in a long time I felt someone truly saw my character as who she was, I always envisioned her as an adventurer first that rather than saving the world because she's a hero she instead simply went with it because it's the kind of adventure you'd only hear of in the exaggerated tales of bards. I never felt more seen before the "is that not so... Adventurer?". I absolutely loved the writers for the smirk and "That I can't deny". I honestly think that had the WoL and Zenos met sooner they could have become friends.
Admittedly from the start, Zenos was a character that I loathe so so much but in the last few moments, his character was worthy of the long build-up, that developed into the kind of bond that is frenemy worthy to WoL. The last battle between Zenos and WoL was the greatest battle of the two and that fulfilled Zenos' heart desire immensely and worthy of Zenos' eternal rest. Prior to Endwalker, I'd deemed Emet Selch another fond character that I enjoyed seeing his development through Shadowbringers. The conclusion of Shadowbringers with Emet served a deserving mark, and even more so during Endwalker Emet and his best friend Hythlodaeus are like the best pair, top the cake off with the addition of Venat. I found myself IRL more fond of the last expansion and constantly thinking of the 10-years story arc that no other medium has had me this hooked. The messages of friendships and striving through tribulations and chaos compiled through a series of memories and flashbacks bear too much more than just in-game experiences, but also a reminder that even in the real world, we will bear the fruit of reliefs as long as we are resilient and persevere through them at our best of possible effort. FFXIV and specifically Endwalker is more than just a game, it's a life lesson tributing that there is more to life and living than what our eyes can see.
Somehow, someday, I hope to read the words "For this duty, you will be playing as Zenos." across my screen. It'd be interesting if they made mini retro-scenarios that put us in the shoes of some of the antagonists or other various characters. Kinda like what FarCry 6 is doing with its DLCs.
i loved what they did with Zenos, so much so that i switched from a whm main to reaper main just so my wol can honor the memory of his rival and never forget what he taught my wol. Zenos taught him that, no matter what everyone calls him, he should be true to himself. To not hide who he is just to uphold the standards which others placed him on. To hold nothing back and 'bring his all to bare'.
I'd like to say that regardless of what people say, the guy has so much power that no matter what they do say, he can do whatever he wants. Who's going to stop him? There's only 1 person who can. Someone can always potentially die when he's on screen. Hope he does come back somehow though, will miss him.
While I like Zenos a lot and thought the ending of EW with him was great, I can't help but feel he and also Fandaniel were wasted in Endwalker. I suppose it's because I was looking forward to them being the villains with how they were set up in Shadowbringers but they ended up not getting all that much screen time, what they got was good, but I really wanted to see more of them.
Fandaniel is a weird case because we did get lots of him - just in his various sundered forms - Fandaniel, Hermes and Amon. And they all function a little differently so it's weird to think of them as one entity.
After a certain point, yes. There’s a short period where Amon doesn’t know his origins. It’s only when Emet reveals it to him that they go on the same path.
As odd as it sounds, i relate to Zenos. Not in the fashion of loathing life, but measuring my own blade's edge against that of my friends. Nothing brings me more joy than victory or loss to that of my closest friends, they push me to become stronger, and I them.
I appreciate this video (and the previous one) for giving me a little more understanding into why the fight was there. Right at that moment I was so raw from the previous 3 hours that I liked exactly none of the dialogue choices and didn't actually want to fight him at all, so I had to walk away and take a good 20-30 minute break before I could stand to do the fight. Did I enjoy the fight for the essence of what it was? Yes actually. Had my character been answering every previous question in the expansion about what I do with "I like making stuff!" if that was an option? YEP. (I can't escape it, I'm a crafter main before anything else.) But I am working towards understanding what everyone else likes about him and loved about the final fight, so thank you for this video.
You know, I’ve held to the belief that Zenos isn’t gone, and while I have no proof to support that, there’s just something of a gut feeling if you will, that his “death” was just to open ended. I dunno what I’m hoping for if they bring him back again because I don’t think there’s any form of redemption for him but I just have a gnawing feeling that we haven’t seen the last of him. And to that I say, until we meet again my old friend. My greatest enemy…
At 15:28 “what of you my mirror” I felt like he wasn’t talking to WoL. He is talking to his reaper voidsent, they are making us think Zenos is talking to us but I don’t think he is. (The camera angle) Yoshi P hinted that there was something we should be looking at in Zenos reaper avatar. I don’t think we’ve seen the last of it. “I” is the voidsent responding to Zenos, but Zenos dies before we hear the answer.
On the teleporter, my interpretation of that is that the WOL called it back themselves. Which sort of shows the difference between the WOL and Zenos. Zenos calls us his mirror, but that's not really accurate. The WOL and Zenos share one trait, that love of pushing themselves. But that's it. That's all Zenos had, and so after he got it, he dies alone with nothing else to live for. My interpretation is that the WOL, who doesn't JUST live for that, wanted to return to their friends and that manifested in dynamus calling the remote to them. The WOL, ultimately, wanted to go on living, where Zenos was content once more to die after getting what he wanted. The game is purposefully vague though and I think either interpretation there is valid.
I felt this response was accurate uptil the part where Urianger suggests that maybe it was Zenos that brought it there which definitely makes the interpretation layered in different directions. Was it Zenos that summoned the Teleporter as thanks, penance, or fulfillment? Was it the WoL that wanted to return home to their friends and people? Was it the Scions who had been praying for your safe return? Open ended for sure. For me literary, it makes the most sense for it to be Zenos but only cause it concludes the one moment Zenos did something in his life that wasn't self-serving (Final Trial).
I have a long time of reflection after hearing zeno's words at the ending. For 22 years to live on earth, I still looking the goal of my life, not knowing what to do with my life. After his word, I might have a glimpse of idea for my purpose, what is my fulfillment of my life. Kinda ironic that it's come from a villain's mouth
I thought the Garlemald scene was literary perfection not only because of the scene itself but because of the timing it happens in the story. You have roughly just left Elpis, with Hermes posing a question to Meteion of finding the answer to the question " What is life" or "What does it mean to live". While ultimately she came up with the answer being "Death", the purpose of Hermes's question was to hopefully deter his people from ridiculing life and death with their overzealous creationalism. He was trying to help his people learn their faults. Fast forward to the scene with Zenos, a man who he has rarely (if ever) helped anyone and has murdered countless people even those of his own nation. This is where I believe you see the first contrast with Meteion and a clear take that Zenos is a foil for her as well. After Jullus confronts him with "what was the meaning of all this? Zenos a few seconds later states "What meaning there is to be found in the petty vicissitudes of your existence must be gleaned by you and you alone." The character that uptil they fought you, had essentially no reason to their life, has come to discover the answer to Hermes's question. Someone who didn't care about the destruction of his people has answered the question of the person who cared about his people and creations. That is literary genius in spades.
"would you be 'happier' if I had a 'good reason?'" is a pretty good meta commentary on the communities willingness to forgive all the terrible deeds people do if the motives make a degree of sense - lets not forget Emet-Selch, who we pretty much all love, is directly responsible for millions of deaths, and was even cool with the Black Rose plan (which, it should be noted, Zenos stopped, maybe not for alturistic reasons, but still). Yotsuyu is another example, she caused untold suffering on everyone in her country because some people were assholes, but we "get" it. The complaints about Zenos being one-note is entirely the point of his character, and it works really well imo. I wouldn't want every villain to be like him, and am really glad they aren't - but as a single dark mirror character to our WoL's, I think Zenos is brilliant.
Zenos understands how I look at enemies in fiction. Equal in strength, a true challenge, no clear winner. Loved him because of this want for a good fight, I ALWAYS wanted to fight him each time we encountered.
16:10 not only zenos they have Ilberd as a villain he want to liberate Ala Mhigo by trick the Garlean to fight The grand company of Eorzea and summon a primal. So he has complete his goal anyway.
He's an one-dimensional character but I do think that every soul on this planet should be like him. He's a villain, yes, but He did stay true to his purpose and goal, to fight with the strongest opponent. What we learn from his perspective is we all should stay true to what we're pursuing (dreams, goal etc.) and live the best out of your life until the very last day of it. He lived and died for what he believed and achieved it in the very end of his last breath
I agree with most of this. I can’t help but wonder if he had some regrets in his dying moments, that he couldn’t experience life like the Warrior. We may never know.
Its ironic, because even back during Stormblood, he had the answer every single civilization we saw in Ultima Thule failed to grasp, that there is no objective meaning of life and that life should be lived nut in search for a higher purpose, but for what brings somebody joy in life.
Something tells me that as time went on, a part of our character began to linger in his mind, yes he was a heartless bastard with no care at all towards others, but something tells his last action was purely because of what our character stands for, he was never going to be a good guy, hell not even an anti-hero but even the most evil of beings can do one good deed when bested. In my case, that final battle with him was amazing, seeing my Fem Roe Lightning Gunbreaker send him FLYING with that BRUTAL haymaker was beautiful, loved seeing her expression, SHE. WAS. PISSED!!!
"Why does it still live? Surely its no match for you" - best friend gassing me up
Right?? Talk about motivation!
Bro I shed tears of laughter & joy in this moment
This line lives rent free in my head forever
Out of all your friends, Zenos never doubted you for a single moment. He knew all along you'd never lose until you faced him.
@@Boonoojootoo Im pretty sure he knew he'd lose then too. He knew that ending was the only one for him.
Zenos went to the end of the universe just to throw hands. Like honestly, respect for always keeping your goals as a priority. a very inspirational character.
The man is dedicated, can’t deny that.
What's always interested me about Zenos is that he's never been just a bloodthirsty brute. For all his complete boredom at the world and bloodlust, back in SB what got me was when we first got his interest in Doma, he suddenly switched to talking in downright poetic terms. "For the time between the seconds, for the sole pleasure left to me in this empty, ephemeral world." And it's a trend he continued, when he talks about drinking a sea of souls while looking at the moon in the last patch before Endwalker, he speaks in iambic pentameter.
Zenos has always been portrayed as extremely intelligent, but not in the usual strategic villain intelligence. He's always indicated this philosophical side to him, and while in SB and ShB it was easy to just say he's wrong, actually putting his nihilistic philosophies to the test in EW actually proves them right. His counter to Jullus is honestly spot on and even when Allisae fires back, she doesn't poke holes in his beliefs, she just calls him a dick and points out that he could be spot on but nobody will care if he keeps being a dick. Similarly, his philosophy perfectly contrasts Meteion's, and actively argues _for_ life despite his destructive tendencies. His final words are, again, really poetic but also surprisingly poignant.
"In these fleeting moments, there is a spark. Blinding, brilliant... gone too soon."
Zenos is straight up depressed when we first meet him, much like Hermes and Meteion. But while their beliefs translate into not thinking life has a point so we shouldn't bother, Zenos believes that even in the darkest despair, there _is_ a spark that can be found, and that devoting oneself to that spark is how we rise out of despair and make life worth it. By the end, he actively champions the idea that this spark can be anything for anyone, for us it's the heroic cause, for him it's the thrill of his life hanging in the balance. Such things don't need artificial justification like mortality or justice, that's the mistake the empire made. The desire alone is what justifies action, individual self-actualisation. We don't save Ethyris because it's moral, we save Ethyris because we want to, that's enough. That's our spark.
I like this comment a lot. Well said, great analysis.
This is really well stated and explains why Ive always loved him so much.
Ive seen a lot of stuff on people choosing the opposition speech options in the end...but I like to think I chose right. Acceptance, at last...
"His counter to Jullus is honestly spot on and even when Allisae fires back, she doesn't poke holes in his beliefs, she just calls him a dick and points out that he could be spot on but nobody will care if he keeps being a dick."
I think you're right in that based on his previously stated philosophy Zenos wouldn't care that most other people wouldn't care about him being a dick. But the part of that message that got through to him was the fact that if nobody cared that would also include the WoL, the one person he does care about in his weird Zenos way.
He's Vegeta without going full hero.
Reading this reminds me that Armstrong from Metal Gear Rising also desired something similar to what Zenos strives for. He wanted to create a world where the people living there can do the things THEY THEMSELVES want or believe are right. Not do things because someone else says so, nor because of a social construct like general justice and morality, but because of what they personally desire and believe in
Those moments lying on the ground with Zenos brought tears to my eyes. What he said just made me think about how we weren't so different. About what could have been if he had simply been born to a family that loved him. In that moment, despite everything he had done, all the atrocities he committed, I wanted to comfort him.
Me too. Even if just a little.
Agreed. I felt even more bad when, after all that we just had been through, we just frigging left him there at the edge of the universe...
.........
Standing here I realize.....
@@cell0401 I am incredibly selfish, all i could think of was "Wait no! GRAB THE SCYTHE DAMN IT!"
he is us if we didn't have the scions we would travel, hunt, and eventually lose all emotional connection to those around us... you know this suddenly sounds like alot of the wow players now that i think about it they hunt for more and more power but alot of them have stopped caring about the story and characters in wow... that makes me sad not gonna lie
Zenos is also the first to answer Meteion's question with a real answer. not one covered in the bias of a life of pain, or apathy.
He answered Jullius when asked why he did what he did. he responded with "would it be better had i a reason" but after that, he continues and says, in far more words, that everyone makes their own purpose in life.
he knew the answer to the question before we even knew the question was being asked.
I like the answer from the cutscene at Camp Broken Glass before everything goes to shit. "It's the little things that make life worth living."
It really makes the philosophical spectrum of Endwalker clear. On one axis you have good and evil, and on the other hope and despair. the good-hope extreme is the WoL and Vanat, and on the good-despair extreme is Hermes. On the evil - hope extreme is Zenos, and on the Evil - Despair extreme is Amon.
Is the takeaway that dwelling on sadness and being an asshole are both equally a cause of problems?
@@shillinhite3911 No, it's that Zenos has found his meaning and whether it inconveniences others or not is irrelevant. Unlike the Scions, the world at large isn't part of his meaning save for one person. Besides, it's not like the Scions or the WoL can say they were never the cause of strife, even though they weren't trying to be assholes. What with the Crystal Braves and all.
that was honestly one of my favorite cutscenes in the game.
Scions: You can't do this alone.
Zeno: Why this depressed bird still stand? It's nothing for you.
a true friend indeed
I was like, gotdammit why is this bastard the only one who thinks I got this
I wish that were true and we didn't need to call on 7 other adventurers.
As far as villains who got what they wanted, I'd put Ilberd on that list too. Ala Mhigo is free and the empire decimated, largely due to him setting Stormblood into motion.
Another commenter mentioned him and I’d agree that he’s the only one who could arguably say mission accomplished.
You could also add Hermes to that list. He didn't want to end the world or himself, that was Fandaniel. He was simply frustrated by the hypocrisy of the ancients not holding themselves to the same standard as the lives they created and destroyed, and sought to address the issue in the most extreme way possible. He didn't want to destroy humanity, nor did he want to save it. His goal was for humanity to be tested and fairly judged. Whether humanity survived or not was irrelevant. Hermes got what he wanted the moment he set things in motion that fateful day in Elpis.
@@Hammer1987 this is also fair. Though it took a long time for Hermes to get his answer, and now he’s paying for his sins in the aetherial sea.
Even if the way he ended up going about it could be seen as *S L O P P Y*
@@benjaminschroeder5465 ABOUT TIME someone made this joke
I know it’s probably because the asset was already there, but I love that the dinner with Zenos is the exact same as what you ate with Aymeric. It rly made the scene darker for me as a simp for both lol
Now there’s something I didn’t pick up on!
Omg another simp for Zenos AND Aymeric?? I'm so glad I'm not the only one out there lmaooo
I love how he thought black rose was "boring" and helped it not end the world. Also, doing the final fight with him as a WHM with the frilly pink level 89 set totally looked like an "I'm done with your shit" moment.
That might have made it worth it. I fought him as a steampunk Sage, frilly and pink would have been better.
Honestly the only thing I felt at the end of that fight was "thank the twelve I'm done with this fool"
beat him as a Fem Roe in the Lightning outfit, that haymaker looked awesome, my character had clearly snapped lol
I did it as black mage female dunesfolk lala. It was every bit as hilarious as it sounds.
My favorites are the lalafels. There is nothing else quite like watching Zenos fold himself in half to punch a potato right in the face, no effs given. Sorry for the ten months later response, but I wanted to share.
I did the exact same 😂 WHM with that Tataru Taru's Boutique outfit.
Nearing the end, I've been wondering how Zenos will factor in the overall story.
He did not disappoint! And that quip about "Why does it still live...?" made me chuckle and realize how much respect for our power Zenos has that it surprised the latter that the Endsinger still lives.
His dialogue is always awesome.
I adored how his story went, but I really felt bad for giving him such a lonely grave. I just..... I know he wouldn't care if that was his grave but I would like to honor our friendship more than just leaving his corpse at the end of everything and alone.
Agreed.
i mean he is a mass murderer and all that
I disagree seeing as its the farthest he's ever been. I'd see it as "you came all this way for your fight, I'm not taking you from it" instead of a disrespectful thing. Instead I liked to see it as acknowledging how far he went for his goal
Here's a bit of a brain nibble for you, then. The universe has no end. What we are fighting at is at the edge... of a new day, the very beginning, so I have hope that Zenos' soul will find its way back and be reborn into a life that is happy. Gods know that poor sod deserves it after everything he went through.
So, not the end, a beginning, as a new day dawns.
@@DSDragonyou got that wish with the patch MSQ. He may not be who he was, but a piece of his soul became Zero.
Some folks were also questioning why we couldn’t just “walk away” at the end of the MSQ as Zenos implied.
Realistically, this is just an all around bad idea. Zenos, at the end, is giving you every opportunity to fight him to the death with no stakes other than your own lives. That’s genuinely the nicest thing he’s ever done. You could walk away and he could go back to being a threat to your mental health and everyone around you just to get your attention- but instead he wants to give you a clean, cathartic break from everything. Even if your character doesn’t like him or doesn’t agree with him, there would be no better time to close out his chapter in the story of your life than right there.
Agreed. There were no distractions, just you and him. That’s the only way their final battle could’ve gone down in a meaningful way.
what i took from the end was that the last area what big on how many people have their own meanings and purposes for living. So the last scene felt like our character acknowledging that This is his reason for living and denying that fight is along the same line of saying "your reason for living is bad"
You just spend the past couple hours seeing how everyone has their own reasons to keep moving forward and all are valid in their own ways but immediately tell someone theirs is wrong though cause you dont like them just feels wrong to me
You actually can walk away, there is an exit
@@perrydunetz882 you could, but the story wouldn't move forward until you fight him
I disagree, we could literally meet him a week later after resting up a bit, getting back to full power. We'd be in the same position, arguably better knowing the people we've fought to save are safe and doing well, and just settle up then when we haven't just fought our way through unsurvivable terrain and pushed ourselves to our limits and beyond to save the universe from the ultimate threat. Hell, if we explained it to him in those terms, he'd be fine with it.
It's not that I hate the idea of fighting Zenos, it's that I hate the idea of being _forced_ to fight Zenos here and now because the writers decided this was the time despite having Zenos himself say he wouldn't stop us if we wanted to walk away, which in my opinion my character had every right to want exactly that in this specific moment. If he'd just attacked us instead, fine, but they had him stand there talking at us in a moment where I definitely would have just been following a new friend I was pretty sure I'd never see again back to ones I thought I'd lost, safe in the knowledge that since Zenos was alive, he'd turn up again and we could settle things then.
I think Zenos stands out because we DON'T know everything about him too. Just like people IRL.
You just don't get everyone's answers spelled out for you. People have paths and baggage we just don't get to see. His childhood has some windows into it but mostly he's an enigma.
And I think Zenos is beautiful in that regard. We don't have all the answers. He's a mess. Do you accept that mess or ultimately reject him? The game doesn't force you to pick one or the other, like it does with other characters.
Your character will, always, accept Gaius and Emet... but in the end, you can send Zenos off with a smile and understanding, or still reject him fully. The story doesn't change, but you do.
This whole mess started because Hermes asked 'what gives life meaning' and Zenos has always been the one character with an answer: whatever you want. Find your spark and chase it. Looking for fate or outside meaning will always leave one empty.
Zenos was great. I do hope this is the end of his arc - dragging him back I think would heavily diminish the character. It's time to let him rest.
It's time to sever ties with our trying past.
All great points. Definitely something to be said for leaving some of the answers unknown. Nothing wrong with letting your audience draw their own conclusions.
I don't think that's the end for him but I trust if they bring him back it'll be for a good reason
If they DO bring him back, I want it to be as an antihero or as a Vegeta/Goro Majima analogue
@@benjaminschroeder5465 Zenos Everywhere™ system when
The Zenos hate has always annoyed me. People often think "good" characters have to be complicated. And that's the genuis of Zenos - he's NOT complicated, he's not nuanced or shades of grey. Admittedly my love of Zenos started because I'm a sucker for the "villain is definitely in love with the hero but doesn't know what love is" trope, but it endured becasue I found his complete confidence in his goal and complete dedication to it interesting.
People like Zenos exist - maybe not to the psychopathic world ending level, but there are absolutely people out there who are so single minded it hurts them and everyone around them. And since they've only known and cared about one thing their entire lives, eventually that thing becomes empty once they mastered it.
Zenos didn't stand a chance to ever develop his own life outside of combat. His mother died in childbirth and his father saw him as a weapon. And so he became a weapon because it was the only path he was given. That of course led everyone to regard him with fear and hatred. He never knew love or laughter or friendship or anything beyond the single minded goal of the empire. But that goal was never HIS, and so he had to figure out his own reason for living within the confines of the world her was raised in.
When he meets us, that's the first time he feels anything at all, ever. Imagine if your entire existence had been the same tone, the same level, the same emptiness, the same shade of beige for your entire life. And then suddenly you see color and feel joy and taste the best foods - you're going to become obsessed with it.
Also, everyone seems to forget Zenos never WANTED to survive Stormblood. He really did believe he was going to die when he killed himself. And he did that because at the time he knew there was nothing that would ever feel as good again, and enduring the bland life he'd had before would become even more insufferable. He had tasted ambrosia, and to go back to water would be toture. Zenos didn't survive on purpose - he didn't know he could switch bodies, it just happened. So then he had to find a new goal, a new purpose. And that led us to Endwalker and the incredible Endwalker experience. He rode the light of the stars to us, that's pretty amazing.
Another thing I haven't seen people talk about much is that the writing team managed to give us an AMAZING team up between the Warrior of Light and Zenos WITHOUT having to change the essence of Zenos' character. They don't try to make him a good guy, they don't give him a redemption arc. And I love that so much.
I don't know if they'll bring Zenos back or not, and I'm not sure which outcome I hope for. I kind of like the idea that he's this entity that's always around and not really an ally but not our main focus either. None of us can solve every problem and "Defeat" every bad person in our lives - sometimes we have to learn to forge ahead in spite of them, and I think that's an interesting way to interpret Zenos, though it's not the only way nor is it my favorite.
Sorry for the novel, but all of that to say - Zenos was always interesting, and they really took his path an incredibly interesting direction. I also think the void stuff will be the theme of the next bit arc - whether that includes Zenos or not I can't say, but I DO think they've hinted at it enough with the Sky Pirate raid and now reapers that there is DEFINITELY more there. I can't wait to see where this goes. Also, great video!
Don’t apologize for sharing your thoughts. I’m sorry it took me so long to get to this one!
I think Zenos could return in an interesting way but they definitely need to give Endwalker’s impact time to breathe. Don’t cut his death down to size by bringing him back so soon, you know? I’m confident the writers will handle it well. Shadowbringers and Endwalker were top notch so I’m not worried. Thanks for sharing!
zenos....upfront was one deminsional...but in reality he is in my opinion the yin vs yang of us.. If the warrior of light is us doing the journey...zenos was more of the "us who finished the game and been waiting for something more exciting and or was losing interest and WoL is the thing/person who brings that interest back". to me he is the exact if not perfect representation of players who once things are done sit there and complain or be bored of "nothing to do" type until a close friend comes around and says "hey lets do this..."together"" and jump and be like let do this!" and even when things go south he be the one laughing because in the end to him it wasn't the winning or losing...it was the Fun of being with like minded people
Zenos reminds us that the warrior is a person and what the player ("should" hope to do). His purpose is to remind us of that.
Also yeah, I wish people realized that zenos definitely loves WOL. It doesn't need to be from positive emotions. The strong emotional attachment is there for him. WOL makes him feel.
Black romance/romantic rivalry is not that hard to understand.
I never saw zenos as one dimensional. Hes just straightforward and not complex. I wouldn't even say hes the worse villain: unpopular opinion, but that's the annoying cliche blue birb girl.
Zenos is definitely an antagonist to the world, but hes the WOL personal antagonist
@@delsingray5923 YEP! He's also my WoL's ill advised drunken hookup
@@reyennarhel2505 this cracks me up
His jubilant pursuit of his goal in life and his joy in completing his goal, and his embrace of his coming demise is the clearest, most obvious refutation of the "villain" of Endwalker, even though he's "evil" by most standards, Zenos still offered the best answer of anyone to "the question" of the entire expansion/story.
I like this!
why the hell is evil in quotation marks? He's a mass murdering sociopath. I DO however think it was a genius writing moment to show that finding purpose and value in your live doesn't necessarily make you a good person.
@@Keira_Blackstone he is evil, but he personally is beyond evil or good, only others moral systems can describe him as it
@@Keira_Blackstone I'd say he is beyond good and evil. He said it himself if he did all of that for a good reason would it change anything? No so he is really just Neutral. A very dark neutral but he isn't good or evil. He's just doing his own thing for that 1v1.
@@Keira_Blackstone Zenos puts it in his own words, what makes an action evil or good is wholly dependent on whether it benefited the observer or not. Did Jullus and his people ever condemned the Garlemald for putting provinces into slavery? No. Because it benefitted their ego as a Garlean. Does that make Jullus and his people evil? To us and Eorzeans, most likely yes; to Garleans, absolutely not.
Jullus lashed out at Zenos for committing evil things and destroying his own country, not even realizing the hypocrisy of his pride as a Garlean for embracing how he has contributed to the likely destruction of other countries. It's only bad because Zenos had done it to them, when Zenos did it to any other country but Garlemald, they barely minded.
The fact that Zenos effectively defeated Meteion (he helped, ok) is kind of inspiring as someone who has suffered from depression. We are often told there's so much to live for, but like Zenos, perhaps you really only need one thing to live for. Maybe don't make it something that involves your own happiness coming at the expense of others, but whether it's your art, a pet, or someone you care for, it's better to have that connection than to succumb to despair.
Even one thing to live for is better than nothing. And as someone who has also suffered from depression, I’m glad you’re pushing through it.
a connection could really save you, a purpose in others.
not me just learning about Urianger's theory that Zenos willed the teleportation device.. i'm bawling my eyes out all over again.
It’s so easy to miss. He mentions it during the epilogue in the Rising Stones but only if you talk to him again after the initial required conversation. We need New Game+ so we can revisit it.
I've held long before Endwalker that Zenos was less a mirror to the Warrior of Light and more a mirror to the player - he is the kind of person that many competitive players are. Uncaring for the world they enter, uncaring for the people around them, only coming to fight, and fight, and fight, and continuing to do so simply for the thrill of it or for their own selfish desires, no matter what implication that has on the world. Endwalker kept this - with a lot of his lines hitting way harder in this lens - but as you mentioned, he also becomes a wonderful foil to both Meteion and the WoL themselves.
Makes sense to me.
Zenos: "What of you, my mirror? Born into this world, bestowed a name, bid to seek out strife and adventure."
"Did you find...fulfillment?"
I read line 1, as being directed at the player character. Born into FFXIV, bestowed a name by the player. Controlled by the player to seek battle and adventure. And, line 2 as being directed at the player: did you, the player, find fulfillment in the FFXIV
Imagine if Ravana, Susano, Gilgamesh, and Zenos fused...
@@idminister so in a sense, Zenos is breaking the fourth wall here, interesting
Through the entirety of Endwalker, I always felt like Zenos was talking not to the WoL but to the player directly. I mean, in the Endsinger cutscene he literally breaks the 4th wall to get in. Not exactly the most subtle of hints.
When Zenos chased me down to the edge of the universe and came crashing through the shield like the Kool-Aid man just for his damn 1v1.... he earned my admiration and the ass whooping that was coming his way 😂. I thought it was a great end to this arc of the Zenos story (I don’t think he is truly gone just yet).
Man literally traveled the entire universe for the salty run back.
I think he is.
The devs said he is, so unless they change their minds... I heard they also said they had a hard time with what to do with Zenos in this expansion, so I don't see them willingly bringing him back.🤔
But you're free to keep hoping ofc.😜
Well considering the MSQ at this point I would say he is dead forever.
I hope he's done only because that was, I think, a perfect ending for him. The "come back to life to fight again" has already been done for him after all.
Zenos 100% became worthy of being the final fight at the end. His character growth through Endwalker is what ultimately drove me to want to finally fight him. The final battle was extremely satisfying as well and they pulled out all the stops. By the way I also wanted to add amazing stuff and great video. You have great story telling skills! Keep it up. :)
The final battle was great for me. The build up over the expansion worked and it really felt like a decade of stories wrapping up in one duty. And thank you for the kind words. I'll try and top this one with something else soon!
I was fairly hesitant during the last quarter of EW, but the moment his Solo Duty came up, I was absolutely brimming with excitement. FINALLY! a Reaper vs Reaper 1on1!
Loved it
@@NPDStudio that moment was incredible. The music timing, the smirk. One of my favorite moments of the game.
Admittedly it felt a bit fast paced for me, but I won’t say I didn’t have fun in that final fight. To me he earned it and we couldn’t let him return with us.
@@acgearsandarms1343 I honestly would have wanted to, but it would also be a disservice to him after all the character growth.
Our only reward for his growth is to give him what he has always wanted. A fight that will burn through the candle of his life, anything less would be an insult.
I'm playing with French voiceover, and the voice of Zenos made him very endearing for me. He has a gentle tone, soft, caring voice, and it's so diagonally opposed with his ruthless personality. I loved that he doesnt do evil things for a good or evil motive, but rather a personal satisfaction only. Sure he despised most people, but only because they fell below his expectations, constantly.
His plans and schemes only had one goal : Find the ultimate opponent, worthy of his respect and admiration. The most uncomplicated motive, no plans within a plan, and yet he was the fiercest opponent.
Interesting! I need to give the French dialogue a listen sometime.
I do love how each of the language options has something to bring to the table over the others.
It's the same in japanese. He's really soft-spoken though he can range from sounding excited to frustrated, angry, worried etc.
Sad thing is, Zenos really could have gotten what he wanted sooner and with a lot less trouble. If only he had seen that the Warrior of Light was more than just a hero. An easy mistake to make because of the circumstances of their meetings in Stormblood. Why else are you helping the rebels liberate Ala Mhigo? Zenos was THE BAD GUY. So he decides to be THE BAD GUY. But you weren't there just to be the hero. The WoL is a thrill seeking adventurer. The WoL got roped up into this whole mess to help his friends. Ala Mhigo was no different, even though it was a just cause. And that is why Zenos is ultimately bamboozled and ignored when he done everything he could as THE BAD GUY.
I think a big chunk of it his to do with his upbringing. As a young man he used to read epic tales and dream about facing off against a “mighty hero” that could push him to his limits it battle. Being the single-minded person unshackled by morals that he is, he likely had more than enough insight into the plight of Garlemald vs the rest of the world to realize that the other continents saw them as the “bad guys” (he even has the wherewithal to call Jullus out on how hypocritical the Garlean justifications for expansion and conquest were), and knew that leaning into the role would inspire heroes to rise up against him. That’s more or less the plot of SB; Zenos playing the role of the bad guy for no other purpose than to create his perfect opponent, and then- having found that in you- spending the end of his life in combat as opposed to depending/atoning for his mistakes. I think his upbringing would have to change drastically in order for him to find fulfillment in any way other than what went down from SB through EW.
@@DioDinero I think its also the fact that he never got the opportunity to learn how human relationships really work, both due to his isolated upbringing as well as his socialization as royalty in an empire where you just take what you want. He saw no other way to get the Warrior of Light to acknowledge him, other than just forcing them to face him by creating a world threatening catastrophe, until Alisaie just points it out to him that he just could do something nice for the WoL and maybe get something nice in return. Which is really the sad part of his character, that this had to be pointed out to him.
I think it is worth noting that in replays... that the questions Zenos asks ALMOST the EXACT same as thing Venat!
Venat asks "Has your journey been good? Has it been worthwhile?" and the answer is interrupted.
Zenos asks "what of you adventurer?... was this life a gift or a burden?... did you find fulfillment?"
And when Zenos goes to continue he just... "I..." and dies.
The parallel is UNMISTAKABLE. imho
(and a little meta... as it always feels like YoshiP asking. ;P )
I hadn’t thought about that connection until just now! This is a great observation!
Zenos, from day one, has always represented the manifestation of depression to me. As someone who suffers from clinical depression, I have experienced considerable difficulty finding meaning in anything. Zenos's character absolutely speaks to that feeling. The incessant boredom, the lack of interest in almost everything. Zenos is depression.
What they did with him... giving him that one sole focus (fighting the WoL) also spoke to my experience. Just hanging in there, waiting for that one spark to brighten the world a bit and give direction, to give purpose.
This video,as well as the other Zenos video, truly do him justice. I appreciate it in ways I can't express. Thank you.
Zenos felt like a medium to address the player directly, so while he may not come off to some people as a great story villain, he does make the player think not just our character. Not just him but several characters ask in their own way if we found meaning in things. If we enjoyed our part of the story. So in that regard I think he was miles ahead of characters like Ran'jit who just didn't have any real arc or noticible depth beyond what we are shown directly. Though his last words do imply there was something we just never got to see.
Yes! He was calling US out with that speech.
i loved it when he called us the adventurer
I absolutely love how his role in the story serves as a contrast to Meteion’s gloomy perspective. While he might not be the most well-written or in-depth character, his role in the story serves as a way that you can still have unfleshed out villain and still have him be amazing as his role in the whole grand scheme of things.
I agree 100 percent. He doesn’t have to be incredibly deep to serve his purpose in the greater story. He’s just enough.
Turns out the meaning of life is not in how we live, but how we die.
I remember how there was just a "switch" in my mind during Zenos's talk with Julius. That single line "Would you be happier if I had a better reason" made me sit straight up in my chair and realize that there was more to Zenos's thought processes than just chaos and carnage.
I thought Zenos' story was an analysis of friendship. If the WoL hadn't have made friendships with the Scions, much of the things he has done would've never happened. They never would've given him the teleporter or used it to get him to safety. Zenos had none of those things, and he was left there to die, all alone...
I honestly felt terrible for him
I definitely didn’t like leaving him behind. But who knows when he’ll pop back up.
Zenos wanted to die, and his Dynamis "wish" after his death, was for us to live, and HE is the reason the teleporter dropped, not our friends.
@@keithfilibeck2390 that’s how I look at it, though I’m not sure he really wanted to die.
@@StoutHelm he wanted to die after his big fight, he sees no point of going on after, as no fight could ever top this one. he thought much the same the first go around.
Aye, the simplistic nature of the character was really in service to the story and the writers utilized him quite well thematically. Video was pog, thanks for covering Zenos' portrayal in Endwalker and going a bit more into it, I love content like this!
Thanks, I’m glad you enjoyed it! I’m going to try and do more vids exploring characters and lore on a deeper level.
The only time I ugly cried in this game was at Zenos death. He was by far my favorite villain and character in the game. I will miss him
He had a great ending. I know some folks want him to return but I feel like it will cheapen his finale. We’ll see what happens.
@@StoutHelm I loved him dearly and his finale was everything I wanted. I am devastated to see him go but… it’s his time he has finished his story. I know some people want him to become a Scion…. Like again I love him… he’s done far to much evil for that to ever be accepted
Not sure he's Scion material, but I could see him operating on the sidelines just... doing his own thing, following his best buddy around, trying to understand why he cares so much for the commoners.
@@barubary218 more like he hasnt done anything to earn a place next to us, or the Scions. Let the poor soul rest.. he deserves it after his help with The end.
That's the only time I cried at all during this game.
I actually "liked" Zenos in Stormblood. I appreciated that he was a simple villain with the upper hand. All the things he did made me hate him in a way where you love to hate him, and you seriously need to stop him. This reminded me in wrestling where it's 1 heel and 1 babyface feuding for the world championship. The build up to that final battle was one of the bright points in SB to me. When we got the payoff, post 4.0 Zenos was just a nuisance. And this hate for him wasn't like how it was, rather... Why are they trying to shove this guy down my throat? I was thrilled that we didn't have to worry about him in Shadowbringers. The way they wrote him in Endwalker though... I was surprised. This buildup, was refreshing. I legitimately didn't feel any hate for him by the end of EW, and he was like... The homie. So when the last trial was all said and done, how could you say no? This was the perfect setting. 1v1? No Primals? No Ascians? No War? Fuck yeah, lets go!
It's cool how people with terrible taste can also enjoy the game
Challenging fights I always found the most fun, and continue to seek out more by playing the game. When Zenos asked that final question, I was like... "oh damn... i cannot deny that..." It was like he was asking me, "why do you even play this game and continue to do so?" like, he's playing the game too out of enjoyment.
Final question was too hype. I loved it.
I want to add some of my interpretation to Zenos’s speech in Ultima Thule. It doesn’t only have to apply to battle for those players who like to take the slow life approach or are interested in other activities. They all have their own form of challenge and satisfaction associated with them. It’s an adventure with fulfillment as well. Crafting, mahjong, racing, etc. Each has a challenge to overcome that gives each individual a sense of satisfaction.
My favourite part about Zenos' speech towards Jullus is that the scene happens so soon after the Elpis part of the story
We just saw a guy broke down because he felt that life had no meaning and projected that onto his daughter. Then, of all people, its _Zenos_ who had things figured out; no one is born with meaning so you should decide for yourself rather than ramble on about hopelessness and it doubles as a brutal critique on Garlemald's culture of justifying its years of invading and colonizing other nations as some kind of "greater good" born out of a misplaced sense of victimization
He got what he wanted, but I'm not sure it was what he expected. He was disappointed to have been defeated again.
I can't help but shake the feeling he still has one more act to play in FFXIV.
I do think he died not really understanding the Warrior but his final speech shows us he really wanted to. He had more to say, wish we could’ve gotten it. Maybe he’s not done. We’ll see.
We are in space of dynamis. Zeno wished to get one more fight, and for both to live. He need to finish WoL normal trial.
The scene where he takes over your body, I just couldn't take it seriously on my first go through EW, because I was playing a lalafell dressed up as a dwarf. Just those expressionless glowing eyes glaring at the nameless imperial was just too funny. But that's just the beauty of it all.
I love that quest.
This video really helped me understand Zenos better.
I never realized how Zenos's philosophy is basically the complete opposite of Meteion's.
I’m glad it gave you something you didn’t know before! Thanks for taking the time to watch it.
My start into FF was with one note villains so I've never had a problem with Zenos. The more they revealed the more I felt he was a victim rather than a villain in fact. Given that Emet didn't care for his grandson (Varis) it stood to reason that Varis, never receiving love or recognition from family, would not impart any onto his own son. The whole world just seemed designed to make Zenos miserable and lonely. No love from family, people want him dead BECAUSE of who he is related to, he's unnaturally large, his height surpassing that of the Elezan and Au'ra meaning that he could never foster any interest 'outside' of combat because everything was just too small. (Go to Mor Dhnoa to the upstairs kitchen there's a lalafell stirring a bowl lamenting how everything is sized as she stands on a stool. And its the same from the other end for Zenos.) In fact Zenos seems to be an opposite of Vauthry, a baby who never got a say, condemned to a life that would end in death and misery. But while Vauthry was hailed a savior and protector by the misinformed, Zenos was reviled as a monster and hated/feared at large.
I know Zenos did terrible things, but he certainly is a villain that I pity.
Mixing bowl lalafell is my favorite NPC lol
@@ol-Daddy-doodoo and that's where you find Alpha, he'll be there at her back practicing his greeting!
FFXIV felt like a philosophy lesson to me
The main question was despair (Song of Oblivion) and finding a reason for living
The WoL's journey answers this by confronting conflict and suffering and accepting these exists, but to not give up anyway. To find joys in the little things, building happiness with others or for yourself, perhaps later losing it, but starting over again anyway.
Zenos is this philosophy taking a dark turn by only living for the little things that make him personally happy. FFXIV shows that this route will give you a working reason to live, but will isolate you. Not seeking to understand others, blindly pursuing your personal enjoyment, and basically saying "this is my life to live let me do as I want" while still keeping within the tenets of "suffering exists, but live for the little happiness" similar to the WoL leads to an empty existence, as shown by Zenos saying his life was lonely
The difference between the 2 modes of living life can be summarized in Answers: "Answer together", and in Venat's words "They are my meaning my purpose my love"
Zenos is basically an Azem, who didn't learn how to love. He traveled, he fought, he adventured, but he never made connections. Meeting the WoL and seeing similarities with him (in strength) made him feel a connection possibly for the 1st time in his life. No wonder he appeared so clingy.
Interestingly as well, the only time he was actually able to make proper progress towards his wish was by
1. Agreeing to help Kryle in Sharlyan (Imagine him defending people and working with Loporrits), whereafter he was given access to the remains of the mother crystal to follow the WoL to the edge of the universe, and
2. Helping the WoL defeat the Endsinger got him his fight.
My current head cannon is that Zenos was actually trying out helping the scions earlier on, but got rejected by Alisaie, her (much like everyone, and understandably so) probably not seeing his actions as an actual attempt to try out helping. The man had high IQ after all, but low EQ. Maybe the guy was in his youth just always misunderstood, and eventually ended up deciding fk it, I'll live for myself.
Sorry for the wall of text. FFXIV just makes my almost middle aged self regress back to a university student
Don’t apologize for big comments, I do my best to try and read them. And maybe Zenos is a piece of Azem somehow. I couldn’t begin to tell you how he traveled from a reflection to the source but I don’t think it’s impossible.
"Never have I understood those around me. Understood their obsessions.
Besieged by their banality, the world was a mire of tedium and trivialities.
But in these fleeting moments, there is a spark. Blinding, brilliant.
Gone… too soon."
- The moment every introvert who's ever lost themselves in MMOs somehow felt a bond with a ruthless, genocidal psychopath.
Zenos is honestly one of my favorite villains from FF14. His ending was perfect. I was honestly very touched by the way his story wrapped up, especially when I realized that he was the one who saved me when I had no more strength to save myself.
Ironically I actually want him to return, it feels like his story arc was at this point a turning point more than an ending.
The thing is... Zenos is what id describe as the Sesshomaru type of antagonist if you use Inuyasha as an example, he repesents apathy that later becomes empathy. There is some very tiny part of him a spark that could in turn eventually bloom into a humanity that is actually genuine.
But its that same reason, I believe he needs his moment ot shine -again-.
Did he die, yes, but heres the thing, death isnt the end in 14, and his body remains lost without any way of returning at the end of the universe, his corpse dwells but Zenos soul may very well still be roaming somewhere.
Not only this, but Zenos has hardly let death end him for good before, hes always been able to defy the emptiness of naught.
Its why one day, im hoping to see an ominous cinematic of the sound of footsteps, a lone scythe, and no body.
Zenos to me deserves what id call a dark redemption arc, he doesnt need to be a good person but he would certainly make a compelling anti-hero that acts as a reluctant distant aide to the warrior helping defeat foes to gain strength, experience and power for yet another cosmic rematch.
Only this time, he actually becomes somewhat more redeemed and willing to help people in need, if mainly to serve his own end of finding ever greater foes to satisfy his hunger.
Also, to who could be his companion on that journey? We kinda already might know... which I believe will inavoidably be Meteion.
Theres an irony and perfect contrast that the most hopeless bird who sought hope meets the most mirthless warrior seeking purpose and complete each other, she is enough of a person that he might find something actually worthy of protecting, if not out of love for something, out of amusement at her naievete.
She may in turn teach him that now she has learned the wols lesson, there are things worth caring about, and the two can only find them together if he seeks to do things the right way this time.
Its a pipe dream of mine, but seeing those two together one day approaching us would complete them imho.
really great vid; did a good job of going over what made me love zenos so much. i distinctly remember talking to a friend while i was around level 82 in the msq about how what i wanted was a final battle with zenos at the end of the universe once everything else had been concluded, as a way to finish of the story with a final wonderful moment. imagine my reaction when i got exactly what i wanted. really a moment i wish i could relive
I couldn't help but say "farewell my friend, I shall never forget you!" after that fight.
My man! I wrote in the previous video about Zenos and how you should add this current knowledge into it. You replied saying you were working on it and here we are! Heck yeah, I love it
I’ve gotta deliver man! I want to keep giving you guys content you enjoy. :)
I played the entire story in about a month, and I LOVE Zenos. The guy is up for the ride in *hopes* of finding someone or something that makes him feel alive, and when he sees a glimmer of hope in the WoL you see him starting to show more emotion, killing his father after discovering he was planing on releasing a weapon that would decimate everyone silently, the WoL included (specifically for us does he do it). Then he’s along for Fandaniel’s ride in hopes of getting a rematch with us, and ultimately, he’s along for Krile’s ride to get what he wants! He is extremely simple minded, and I think that’s his charm. He just wants to fight your all with his all in an epic setting, until either one is dead, that’s it.
Exactly.
My theory is that Zenos was always planned to be an in-lore mirror to the hardcore raider kind of players.
Those that literally only care about the hardest bossfights, the hardest encounters, the greatest challenges. Zenos is the mirror to the people that love games like Dark Souls. Raiders and Souls-Players alike usually care little about stories, NPCs and all the other stuff around it. In that, they are exactly like Zenos.
Zenos is the answer to the question: "What if we had a villain whose mindset is basically that of a hardcore raider?"
But I think he is also meant to be a mirror to the general desire in players of MMOs to get better at the game, get to max level, get better gear, and the thrill of beating harder and harder fights.
While not everybody, me included btw, finds Ultimate and Savage raiding worthwhile or has time for it, most people just enjoy the thrill of a bossfight they just won by the skin of their teeth.
I remember the other night I did Aglaia and at the Rhalgar fight like everybody apart from me and 4 other folks decided to stand under the meteor and died when the fist came out of the wrong hoola-hoop. The Destroyer still had about 15%+ HP left but we somehow managed to hold out long enough to fill the third LB3 for the almost dead and very out-of-mana healer to rez everybody.
The whole raid run went from "eh, lets farm some glam gear" to "Oh crap! Can we even do this?!" to "We can do this! YES! YEASSSSS!" and made it memorable.
This.
THIS!
THIS is what Zenos is talking about when he calls us his mirror.
This is why Zenos is such a perfect fit for the WoL's antagonist too.
Zenos also answers the question: How would the WoL have ended up if he just cared about getting to Endgame and beat hard bosses?
In the end Zenos is a very sad character really.
But I am happy in how they handled him in Endwalker and the whole juxtaposition with the Endsinger.
The Endsinger is the antithesis of hope. It is utter despair, nihilism, depression.
Zenos is the epitome of selfishness but also manic-depression. The manic part only being active when he could lose his life in a fight.
Or to put it in a slightly different viewpoint:
The Endsinger is Nihilism (nothing matters, everything is pointless) while Zenos is Optimistic Nihilism (nothing matters, everything will eventually be gone anyway but since nothing matters anyway I can indulge myself / I can chose my own way free of worrying about the future since eventually everything I do will be forgotten anyway).
What I also love about Endwalker is that Zenos and the Endwalker both in the end got their little redemption arcs.
The Endsinger could be proven wrong and could change back to Meteion and find hope again.
While Zenos could take Alisaie's words to heart and for once take an interest in the plight of another, even if it was only to have the reunion with the WoL.
I mean he literally flew to the end of the universe to help you.
So all that being said, yeah... Zenos Best Boi.
I always had a liking for Zenos. He was the bored, powerful person, the one who didn't look for it but was born into it. He feels unfulfilled in his life, and even attempts on his life were futile. His first murder as a kid, where he showed genius, he showed talent, revealing more than just some spoiled prince. Raised in hatred, caring only about what could make him happy, and that was conflict. He knew nothing but conflict and thus found joy only in that, no surprise the hell he was raised under by Varis who loved a dog more than his own son who he would rather be dead. Zenos grew into someone that I believe would end up this way after a point in their life. 26 years old and knowing only this? Yeah, no surprise. That's why I liked him. He wasn't 1 dimensional, except maybe in desire. He just had that kind of upbringing and made him the man he became. What EW did with him honestly was amazing and his "ending" was a little depressing. Not that it was poorly written, but that he seems to still feel unhappy, or realize that perhaps, this isn't what he wanted after all.
I love, that when the keyword 'friend' falls in the current 6.4 msq sequence, we think of zenos
people didn't like this man in stormblood so they ignore any development he's had to whine about how he's a bad character because he doesnt have a sad backstory like every other xiv villain
even when he calls this out in the story quest people are too busy complaining about him! dude jumped to my fav villain with the conversation with jullus and this video sums it up perfectly so bless you
That conversation is a massive reveal, you’re exactly right. I’m glad you enjoyed it!
Zenos is a fourth generational consequence of Solus and Varis' actions (and by extension the ascians in general). The product of all that power, slaughter and war mongering over obviously bulshit reasons produced a creature who only lived for violence for its sake after being surrounded by false motivations invented by its forebears with the hidden aim for his homeland to be an engine of chaos. It's like chinese whispers, but with family generations.
I find it hilarious that both of Emet's proudest creations, the empires of Allag and Garlea, each produced a being who completely ruined the ascian's plans more than the WoL ever did.
Wish I found this video sooner. I could never put into words how Zenos affected me and my character. You, on the other hand, were able to put not just my feelings, but those of others, into perfect words. Thank you.
Thank YOU my friend, I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Zenos was a man driven by one thing: to find a fight he could relish. He ultimately got that in his final confrontation with the Warrior of Light. He's not complicated or has other motives, he didn't need them. From the onset, he was singularly driven, but in his pursuit he grew bored and uncaring to everything around him. You can see a glint of life in his eyes when he takes Fordola under his wing, sensing a familiar drive in her.
Zenos isn't a master schemer like Emet-Selch. He isn't a master diplomat like Elidibus. He isn't a cunning strategist like Gaius. He isn't a leader like Solas or Varis. He didn't need to be, nor should he have been. Some of the greatest characters in fiction have been driven by a single urge.
In the end, he ultimately became what the Meteia never could be: lost in despair then find a purpose to life. We meet him and he's essentially the Endsinger; bored and full of apathy. We, directly and indirectly, gave him a purpose to live. It's what makes him an intriguing character.
Exactly. He doesn’t need to be complex to fulfill a purpose in the story, a lot of people seem to miss that when compared to someone like Hermes or Emet-Selch.
the embodiment of,
Ah Yes, a worthy opponent,
Our battle will be LEGENDARY!
A TEST OF YOUR REFLEXES!
Great video, cant wait to see more FFXIV videos from you in the future.
Thanks friend.
Zenos and the WoL are truly 2 side of the same coin. both powerful, both head strong in their approach, both will not stop to achieve their goal....one will always fight for the sake of others, the other will always fight only for themselves...Zenos is not wrong to say the WoL must also enjoying the fight also. the WoL was an adventure...the whole reason one would be an adventure is because they want to seek challenge...in this sense, Zenos and the WoL are basically identical. they both seek thrilling challenge, but the way they going at it is totally different. when Zenos say the WoL is his "Mirror", he is not wrong
My WoL, in the end, regarded Zenos with equal friendship, with equal zeal, and he didn't wanna leave him behind in that void they both lay dying in. I like to think he's still with us. It's not realistic at all, and I acknowledge that it's pure fanfiction, but I like to imagine he latched onto our soul as we left using his Resonant powers, his consciousness traveling with us, no longer powerful enough to do anything of note, but able to be with us as a constant companion, similarly to how Ardbert did. Another voice in the WoL's increasingly crowded head...
I don't think it's out of the question with all the voidsent lore that was added this expansion. I like the headcanon though.
I wonder how therapy sessions would go for our WoL. Your Idea reminds me Of Fantasy Star Online 2s Dark Falzs. When we gain there power There (Souls?) Are with us in our head....with funny side stories of them arguing, bickering, having fun within there sides of our heads. Get alot of stares, Some concerned some amused, after we come out of our head. So i can imagine this would be equally as Hilarious
This comment is one of the best solely for the PSO reference.
Like how Midgardsormr and Ardbert are having a rent-free in WoL's mind? I like that though, it'd certainly bring more conversations to one's head. I mean Hydaelyn has moved out.
I just found your channel looking for lore on Garlemald and The Allagan Empire. I just wanted to say this is the most amazing analysis of one of my favorite characters in this game. People love to hate Zenos but ive always loved him since his introduction. This just made me fall in love with him even more.
I’m glad you enjoyed it! Zenos is one of my favorites too. Very misunderstood.
My take on Zenos is he is effectively the WoL's mirror, similar but opposites. And the final fight captures that when he points out that we enjoy pushing ourselves to the limit just as much as him, which is great as the player cannot deny that about themselves. We fight harder versions of a boss for the thrill, all Zenos wants is WoL Ultimate for the same reason, which we oblige.
Zeno's is OUR foil, finding new ways to get stronger and pushing our character to higher limits, sometimes we lose sight of that with all our leveling of other classes, crafters etc or even simply completing the story and setting the game down no one but Zenos could there as the constant reminder.
Endwalker also started out STRONG, giving us fights at the start we would normally only see at the end of an expansion. Zeno's simply is there to give us a reason to stake our entire strength to the end.
Actually really liked Zenos even in Stormblood, in a game where every villain had very good reasons to chase what they were after, and with the brains/plans to match, it was amazing to have that one guy who was extremely honest with what he wanted, and chased it with every fiber of his being shamelessly, especially since he was very much a reflection of the MC, a Champion/Hero/greatest warrior who was undefeated.(To the Garleans, Zenos was very much their Champion/National Hero-since he conquered in their name-though there is definitely a healthy dose of Fear in there as well)before he defected.
To me, the scene where he sheathed his weapon and walked away from you on the moon, was the moment where I sort of fall in love with this amazing dynamic character, because while he is changing, he never wavered from his goal, he changed himself in order to chase after his goal, that alone is amazing. For anyone.
This is not a villain stuck in his old ways of thinking, or limited by society/morality, or even his own capabilities, this is a character who is willing to better himself into the strongest, best version of himself, in order to share the best thing he knows in the world, with you.
In the end, after I said "That, I can't deny." He replied "Acceptance. At long last." I smiled, because I actually felt happy for him.
extra: Think about it this way, even before he made the flight to the end of the world, he ate Zodiark... for you, kinda crazy.
The smallest changes in his character end up changing him in significant ways for me. I was really meh on him in Stormblood but loved what they did with him.
I never hated Zenos as a character, i hated him as a person tho as i tend to go really into character and immerse myself with the world and the characters. So when i saw him i wasnt "urgh so annoying go away" rather i was "dang you zenos , im not your friend but il kick your ass anytime" and really felt joy when Alliese gave him a piece of her mind. And that final battle with him on the edge of the universe felt like a satisfying conclusion to his character. For that reason i dont want them to bring him back. Emet- selch on the other hand can come back any time , i never get enough of him.
I never really minded Zenos. Villians don't need to be these complex, morally grey characters with these lofty motivations. Sometimes, it's good to have a BBEG that's just simple, easy. "I want to fight you because it's the only time I've /felt something/." That's his motivation. That's it. And given the narrative in Endwalker, it actually /works/ just like you mentioned; it's the foil to Meteion. "Meanings in life is what YOU give it."
I think people are uncomfortable with Zenos, because of a simple reason: He's a reflection of us. Not us, the player, but of our species. There are people, in the real world, that do terrible, horrible things. Unspeakable acts of evil and when asked, they simply say "Because I find it fun". We're uncomfortable with Zenos because he is, and likely unintentionally, a reflection of the worst our modern civilization has to offer. Single minded drive where one does unspeakable evil because it's "their spark". We don't understand these people, we recoil and shun them, but /they exist/. Endwalker made us confront this fact, and it's not an easy one. It's a sad, terrible, horrifying truth.
It gives something to ponder on beyond the story of the game, and that, in and of itself, is amazing.
interesting take on him tbh!
I think there is also kind of a community reason, why many people just couldn't warm up on Zenos: He as a character is supposed to be the mirror to a player who engages with the video games for the fun, thrill and challenge of it. And I think this just didn't stick because a majority of the playerbase in FF14 are not that interested in the challenging aspects of the game, most of them never enter savage or even just extremes and rather want to be engaged with the story. The FF14 Community in my opinion is kinda notorious in its aversion to challenging or competetive content.
Just a small correction: he doesn't do acts of evil 'because he finds it fun'. The opposite in fact. It's stated multiple times in SB he doesn't enjoy bloodshed, he finds it a waste. Heck he doesn't even find joy in fighting (his side story). If he found bloodshed fun he would have been happy.
Zenos is quite suicidal but when he is brought to his knees it's when his entire body screams that he wants to live. That singular moment of facing his own mortality is when he feels that he should go on. It's the lifeline that keeps him going. "In darkness, seek joy".
Battle so far is the only outlet that he found for that joy as he excelled in every other academic field.
If he had been allowed to properly socialize as a kid he would have fared better (Varis tried to set playdates with children of other politicians so they'd become his future minions but Zenos didnt like that)
@@OracleGrouse He generally feels somebody who's talents and personality was fully wasted in the golden cage Varis build for him. Especially in his dying breath, it really comes off like he actually would have enjoyed to live a life more like the WoL, being able to travel the lands and seek challenges all across them. Instead he was used like a weapon by his father for most of his life.
and I can totally see him not liking being set up with a bunch of snobby elite kids. He seems to be somebody who craves very honest and intimate relationships, which what Varis tried to set him up for wouldn't really give him. I also feel like thats why he had to die, because the other alternative after him having his personal revalation would have been to become a permanent ally to the WoL and I think the devs considered that step, even if it is consequential, to be too controversial, especially because they would have been forced to really deal with the fact that he is Aetherys most wanted criminal and his actions couldn't be forgiven to the world.
@@shizachan8421 Oh he quite despises snobby elites. His first scenes in SB show as much when he cuts down a general for sitting back and using his troops as cannon fodder while Zenos praises the low-rank soldier even though he ended up fleeing the battle. Also had more respect in Yotsuyu and Fordola than the other Garleans.
In general, he has more respect for lower classes especially when they fight for respect and better conditions against the elites.
He hates protocols and decorum as well as it 'makes people act like soulless puppets'. An opinion likely formed by the servant and maids that raised him
Just discovered your videos and am greatly enjoying them. The scene with Zenos and Jullus is my absolute favorite scene in Endwalker not only because it showcases Zenos' worldview perfectly, but because his response is a scathing dissection of Jullus'. Even then Jullus is looking for some sense of reason or motive that he can grab onto to understand how Zenos justifies what he did, and Zenos verbally slaps him in the face for it. Zenos knows what he's done is monstrous and he doesn't care, he did it for his own reasons and he basically insults Jullus because if he could be so influenced by the reasoning of another as to even potentially justify an act he so violently abhors that he's currently holding himself back from attacking Zenos in that moment, then he might as well be an unthinking beast. The idea that Jullus can't simply form his own opinion on the matter and that be enough is baffling to Zenos.
And that's why Alisaie's comment actually works while anything Jullus said was completely ineffective, she acknowledged that how he lived his life up until that point had clearly worked for him and made no statement on it being incorrect, but instead pointed out that his current goal didn't involve only himself and his motivations but those of the WoL. She simply clarified something he had been confused about without trying to make him fundamentally alter his worldview.
In the end Zenos is a very simply written character and that honestly what I like about him, he's not complex because he doesn't need to be. He's not meant to be the main enemy of the story, he doesn't need hidden motives and eccentric motivations. In that way he is actually a lot like a modern Hythlodaeus, he doesn't think of himself as overly important, he merely plays the bit part given to him to the best of his ability and is satisfied as such. He is fine being the side or dlc boss that you fight after the important story is done because it doesn't matter when he gets that fight as long as he gets it.
I'd also like to point out something I found funny in that I don't think Zenos thought he would have a part to play against the Endsinger when he made the choice to help the Scions in Endwalker. I truly believe he thought the gesture alone of coming to our aid even if it wasn't needed would be enough to convince us to finally give him the fight he craved. And I think this because when he arrives and sees the Endsinger he says "I take it this is your prey. But why does it still live, surely it is no match for you." No one who knows or has heard of the WoL has the same level of confidence that Zenos has in you, even the Scions are worried sick about us and praying for our safe return while he sees the Endsinger's defeat as a forgone conclusion.
I get why some people don't like him as a character, he's definitely not for everyone, but I love him and I don't get people who say he is a bad character, even before Endwalker. He is a simple villain and simplicity doesn't have to mean bad or boring and at least for me Zenos definitely wasn't either.~
Despite the choices you have to say to Zenos, I always believed my character to consider Zenos a friend. From Stormblood to Endwalker. And in the final moments, when Zenos finally came to understand us in his own way, I picked the first option. My character, losing sight of why he saw him as a friend in stormblood, seeing that Zenos finally understands, was the spark that made my character remember what he saw in him. And he embraced this final battle gladly, not as a hero and a villain, not as a soldier and a prince, but as two friends. Two enemies at the end of everything, giving each other their all in a final climactic battle.
I like this.
Zenos fans stay winning, thank you for putting into words something I've been struggling to convay to others. Zenos loves the player but can only show it in the only way he knows how.
There's something more to Zenos calling us his mirror as well: Zenos throughout SB to EW is projecting really hard onto the WoL. He felt a connection with them but imagined the WoL to be an exact copy of them, values and feelings. But as he saw them more and more out of battle in EW, his perception of the WoL is shaken as they don't behave as he expected. And he's starting to doubt what he felt back in SB. And Alisaie words made him rethink *what* he had felt in common.
Then he finds it. Though his statement before the duel can be interpreted from a gamer's pov, it's also a callback to the very first question asked to you when you start ARR: why did you choose to be an adventurer, why choose the path of seeking challenges and encountering foes?
What Zenos is admitting in that moment is that he too has the soul of an adventurer. Which makes his final question even more tragic, asking the WoL if it's possible for beasts like them to find happiness...and he could have been happy all along if he had just left Garlemald.
And for his 'lack of character depth', maybe it's easier to think that in English. I play in jp and his voice direction has a wider range of emotion (not just aggressively bored or battle horny, good performance from his VA but a lot of scenes are missing nuances because of it) and the contrast between his actions, his words and what emotions are leaking through his voice show the can of worm ready to be open and oh boi, is it a mess of repressed emotions.
He feels a LOT but cant process them so he interprets everything as 'dull'
I think you’re right about not being able to express himself properly, but I think the writers did a better job of conveying that in Endwalker. There’s a meta joke in there somewhere lol
I really hope he comes back and joins you on journeys with the sole reason being that he loves a challenge and wants to study what makes you so strong
I could see him wanting to join us, maybe. I wouldn’t hate it down the road.
I always dug the potential Zeno had as an antagonist. The fact that he acknowledges my character as someone who always rises to greater challenges was a perfect way to let them finally let loose. It kinda felt like he was basically saying "It's alright to admit you're selfish, just this once." I had to reward him for seeing my character as an individual.
Felt the same way.
I loved Zenos since stormblood, and Endwalker made it even better
This made me so emotional (again!!) :(( The part about "in darkness, seek joy" and how it relates with Zenos
I’m sorry I made you emotional, but I’m glad Zenos resonates with you in a similar way that he did for me. Really enjoy where they took the character.
I honestly loved Zenos especially at the end. It was the first time in a long time I felt someone truly saw my character as who she was, I always envisioned her as an adventurer first that rather than saving the world because she's a hero she instead simply went with it because it's the kind of adventure you'd only hear of in the exaggerated tales of bards. I never felt more seen before the "is that not so... Adventurer?". I absolutely loved the writers for the smirk and "That I can't deny".
I honestly think that had the WoL and Zenos met sooner they could have become friends.
I have personally always loved Zenos’ character, from Stormblood to Endwalker he’s always been awesome.
I miss him in the story so bad.
One thing to notice about the meal with Zenos, its the same meal as we had with Aymeric in Heavensward. Thought that was a bit creepy in a sense.
Someone else pointed that out in another comment, I hadn’t noticed it until then.
Admittedly from the start, Zenos was a character that I loathe so so much but in the last few moments, his character was worthy of the long build-up, that developed into the kind of bond that is frenemy worthy to WoL. The last battle between Zenos and WoL was the greatest battle of the two and that fulfilled Zenos' heart desire immensely and worthy of Zenos' eternal rest.
Prior to Endwalker, I'd deemed Emet Selch another fond character that I enjoyed seeing his development through Shadowbringers. The conclusion of Shadowbringers with Emet served a deserving mark, and even more so during Endwalker Emet and his best friend Hythlodaeus are like the best pair, top the cake off with the addition of Venat.
I found myself IRL more fond of the last expansion and constantly thinking of the 10-years story arc that no other medium has had me this hooked. The messages of friendships and striving through tribulations and chaos compiled through a series of memories and flashbacks bear too much more than just in-game experiences, but also a reminder that even in the real world, we will bear the fruit of reliefs as long as we are resilient and persevere through them at our best of possible effort.
FFXIV and specifically Endwalker is more than just a game, it's a life lesson tributing that there is more to life and living than what our eyes can see.
💯
We didn't even have the courtesy to actually bury the man. We left him in the middle of space. Bro literally helped us.
It’s sad.
Somehow, someday, I hope to read the words "For this duty, you will be playing as Zenos." across my screen.
It'd be interesting if they made mini retro-scenarios that put us in the shoes of some of the antagonists or other various characters. Kinda like what FarCry 6 is doing with its DLCs.
I’d absolutely be down for this
So in stormblood I actually accepted as a friend, he called me his first friend and it made me happy
i loved what they did with Zenos, so much so that i switched from a whm main to reaper main just so my wol can honor the memory of his rival and never forget what he taught my wol. Zenos taught him that, no matter what everyone calls him, he should be true to himself. To not hide who he is just to uphold the standards which others placed him on. To hold nothing back and 'bring his all to bare'.
I like that as head canon!
Zenos is the awkward quiet guy who just needs a good friend who can share his passion
I'd like to say that regardless of what people say, the guy has so much power that no matter what they do say, he can do whatever he wants. Who's going to stop him? There's only 1 person who can. Someone can always potentially die when he's on screen. Hope he does come back somehow though, will miss him.
I already miss him.
Great video. The Zenos story was absolutely beautiful in the end. I absolutely cheered for him when he came and helped us fight the Endsinger.
While I like Zenos a lot and thought the ending of EW with him was great, I can't help but feel he and also Fandaniel were wasted in Endwalker. I suppose it's because I was looking forward to them being the villains with how they were set up in Shadowbringers but they ended up not getting all that much screen time, what they got was good, but I really wanted to see more of them.
Fandaniel is a weird case because we did get lots of him - just in his various sundered forms - Fandaniel, Hermes and Amon. And they all function a little differently so it's weird to think of them as one entity.
Compare to Ardyn's screen time and the overall impact he gave, I much prefer the short time we had with Zenos.
@@iryu7288 agreed.
@@StoutHelm Well, Fandaniel and Amon are basically the same, aren't they? Even when he dies as "Fandaniel", we see his spirit in its Amon form.
After a certain point, yes. There’s a short period where Amon doesn’t know his origins. It’s only when Emet reveals it to him that they go on the same path.
I cried when he threw the teleportation device at me chad energy
When bodysnatcher Zenos came up to my 2 fave Scions i was so scared
As odd as it sounds, i relate to Zenos. Not in the fashion of loathing life, but measuring my own blade's edge against that of my friends. Nothing brings me more joy than victory or loss to that of my closest friends, they push me to become stronger, and I them.
I appreciate this video (and the previous one) for giving me a little more understanding into why the fight was there. Right at that moment I was so raw from the previous 3 hours that I liked exactly none of the dialogue choices and didn't actually want to fight him at all, so I had to walk away and take a good 20-30 minute break before I could stand to do the fight. Did I enjoy the fight for the essence of what it was? Yes actually. Had my character been answering every previous question in the expansion about what I do with "I like making stuff!" if that was an option? YEP. (I can't escape it, I'm a crafter main before anything else.) But I am working towards understanding what everyone else likes about him and loved about the final fight, so thank you for this video.
Hey, thank YOU for taking the time to check it out!
Can't believe there are ppl who don't like Zenos as a character, this shit is brilliant
You know, I’ve held to the belief that Zenos isn’t gone, and while I have no proof to support that, there’s just something of a gut feeling if you will, that his “death” was just to open ended. I dunno what I’m hoping for if they bring him back again because I don’t think there’s any form of redemption for him but I just have a gnawing feeling that we haven’t seen the last of him. And to that I say, until we meet again my old friend. My greatest enemy…
Zenos is gone.
For now.
At 15:28 “what of you my mirror” I felt like he wasn’t talking to WoL. He is talking to his reaper voidsent, they are making us think Zenos is talking to us but I don’t think he is. (The camera angle) Yoshi P hinted that there was something we should be looking at in Zenos reaper avatar. I don’t think we’ve seen the last of it. “I” is the voidsent responding to Zenos, but Zenos dies before we hear the answer.
Have you finished the 6.1 story yet?
On the teleporter, my interpretation of that is that the WOL called it back themselves. Which sort of shows the difference between the WOL and Zenos. Zenos calls us his mirror, but that's not really accurate. The WOL and Zenos share one trait, that love of pushing themselves. But that's it.
That's all Zenos had, and so after he got it, he dies alone with nothing else to live for. My interpretation is that the WOL, who doesn't JUST live for that, wanted to return to their friends and that manifested in dynamus calling the remote to them. The WOL, ultimately, wanted to go on living, where Zenos was content once more to die after getting what he wanted.
The game is purposefully vague though and I think either interpretation there is valid.
I like that it isn’t explicitly spelled out for us. We don’t need all the answers. Interpretation is fun.
I felt this response was accurate uptil the part where Urianger suggests that maybe it was Zenos that brought it there which definitely makes the interpretation layered in different directions.
Was it Zenos that summoned the Teleporter as thanks, penance, or fulfillment?
Was it the WoL that wanted to return home to their friends and people?
Was it the Scions who had been praying for your safe return?
Open ended for sure. For me literary, it makes the most sense for it to be Zenos but only cause it concludes the one moment Zenos did something in his life that wasn't self-serving (Final Trial).
@@rubykid15 this is why I think Urianger is right as well
I have a long time of reflection after hearing zeno's words at the ending.
For 22 years to live on earth, I still looking the goal of my life, not knowing what to do with my life.
After his word, I might have a glimpse of idea for my purpose, what is my fulfillment of my life.
Kinda ironic that it's come from a villain's mouth
Sometimes it takes a long time for people to figure out the direction for their lives. Nothing wrong with that friend.
I thought the Garlemald scene was literary perfection not only because of the scene itself but because of the timing it happens in the story. You have roughly just left Elpis, with Hermes posing a question to Meteion of finding the answer to the question " What is life" or "What does it mean to live". While ultimately she came up with the answer being "Death", the purpose of Hermes's question was to hopefully deter his people from ridiculing life and death with their overzealous creationalism. He was trying to help his people learn their faults.
Fast forward to the scene with Zenos, a man who he has rarely (if ever) helped anyone and has murdered countless people even those of his own nation. This is where I believe you see the first contrast with Meteion and a clear take that Zenos is a foil for her as well.
After Jullus confronts him with "what was the meaning of all this? Zenos a few seconds later states "What meaning there is to be found in the petty vicissitudes of your existence must be gleaned by you and you alone."
The character that uptil they fought you, had essentially no reason to their life, has come to discover the answer to Hermes's question. Someone who didn't care about the destruction of his people has answered the question of the person who cared about his people and creations.
That is literary genius in spades.
I hadn’t realized the parallels to Hermes in that scene but you’re right. Lots of connections to find.
This is like my 3rd or 4th time watching this video and I must say this is my favorite analysis of Zenos on youtube.
Thank you so much friend, that really means a lot!
"would you be 'happier' if I had a 'good reason?'" is a pretty good meta commentary on the communities willingness to forgive all the terrible deeds people do if the motives make a degree of sense - lets not forget Emet-Selch, who we pretty much all love, is directly responsible for millions of deaths, and was even cool with the Black Rose plan (which, it should be noted, Zenos stopped, maybe not for alturistic reasons, but still). Yotsuyu is another example, she caused untold suffering on everyone in her country because some people were assholes, but we "get" it.
The complaints about Zenos being one-note is entirely the point of his character, and it works really well imo. I wouldn't want every villain to be like him, and am really glad they aren't - but as a single dark mirror character to our WoL's, I think Zenos is brilliant.
I agree with just about everything you said. He doesn’t have to be as deep as Emet to fulfill his role well.
Zenos understands how I look at enemies in fiction.
Equal in strength, a true challenge, no clear winner.
Loved him because of this want for a good fight, I ALWAYS wanted to fight him each time we encountered.
16:10 not only zenos they have Ilberd as a villain he want to liberate Ala Mhigo by trick the Garlean to fight The grand company of Eorzea and summon a primal. So he has complete his goal anyway.
He did accomplish some of his goals, though I don’t think he intended to die when he did. Fair point though.
Thank you for the great explanation!! Clean and wonderful
Thank you for taking the time to check it out, I’m glad it was worth it!
He's an one-dimensional character but I do think that every soul on this planet should be like him.
He's a villain, yes, but He did stay true to his purpose and goal, to fight with the strongest opponent. What we learn from his perspective is we all should stay true to what we're pursuing (dreams, goal etc.) and live the best out of your life until the very last day of it.
He lived and died for what he believed and achieved it in the very end of his last breath
I agree with most of this. I can’t help but wonder if he had some regrets in his dying moments, that he couldn’t experience life like the Warrior. We may never know.
Its ironic, because even back during Stormblood, he had the answer every single civilization we saw in Ultima Thule failed to grasp, that there is no objective meaning of life and that life should be lived nut in search for a higher purpose, but for what brings somebody joy in life.
the battle with zenos was perfect, cant wait to see whats next for him
Zenos was the best dance partner I ever had.
A test of your reflexes!
Something tells me that as time went on, a part of our character began to linger in his mind, yes he was a heartless bastard with no care at all towards others, but something tells his last action was purely because of what our character stands for, he was never going to be a good guy, hell not even an anti-hero but even the most evil of beings can do one good deed when bested.
In my case, that final battle with him was amazing, seeing my Fem Roe Lightning Gunbreaker send him FLYING with that BRUTAL haymaker was beautiful, loved seeing her expression, SHE. WAS. PISSED!!!