One note: Zenos doesn't actually *fight* Elidibus. He says as much, that he was looking forward to fighting his own body, but Elidibus scurried away before Zenos had the chance to beat his own ass.
FInished watching the video, excellent job. Just wanted to add my two cents. Zenos not only works as a perfect foil for the WoL, but as an essential puzzle piece to one of the core themes of Endwalker: what is the point of going on living, when life is filled with endless suffering and monotony? When there's nothing waiting at the end but... the end? The excrutiating despair that both Hermes and Amon struggle with in the course of their stories, and never manage to find a cure for. Well, Zenos had the answer to this question this entire time. To live for what makes you happy. If you have even one happy moment in the future to look forward to, then life is still worth living. You can live for that one thing that makes you happy, and that's what keeps life from being meaningless. Alisaie's famous line to him is an essential part of that lesson too. Because living for what makes you happy won't necessarily mean you can get it. You might have to end up caring about things you wouldn't otherwise care about in order to reach those moments of happiness for yourself. It's an argument for why morality still matters, even in our post-modernist world of life having no meaning aside from what we ascribe to it. If you're living for your own happiness: you're going to *need* other people to make those moments happen in the first place. And so, you better start caring about them. I really do understand why a lot of people don't like Zenos, but I love him so much. He's probably one of my favorite villains in any story ever and I'm really thankful to FFXIV for giving him to us.
same, Zenos is probably my favourite villain (turned anti-hero/friend?) I have EVER experienced in media. I understand people not relating to him and despising him, but I love his character and especially that final fight.
I looked at it from another angle, a psychological perspective. Zenos professes constantly that he wants the ultimate combat. In reality, what he wants /is to feel/. This is a man born into royal privilege and opulence. Emperor Varis had no time for him, possibly no care. His mother died when he was very young. The servants that tended to him had no love for him. He was a duty. He did not have any siblings. He never had to struggle for anything. Zenos was depressed. (Which, tbh, is probably what drew him and Fandaniel together but that's another thought for another time.) He said as much in many of his long winded, poetic diatribes (you know he spoke very close to iambic pentameter sometimes?) That the world is dull, boring, devoid of interest. Except when he's in combat. It's why he fell in love with the Warrior of Light. (And yes, I really believe in some twisted way he did.) Because, that light burned and he /felt/ something. From that point forward, the die was cast. He would stop at nothing to feel that again, to be close to the WoL one more time.
This is 100% the exact same way I see it, and I've flipped Zenos haters who thought he was a shallow and unrelatable character. People who've struggled with depression and felt nothing can more easily spot when someone is seeking something to live for. And I do believe it was a lust for combat because he never experienced anything else. He was never shown love, so how was he supposed to understand his own feelings? All he knew was that it was a burning desire and passion for the only person he'd ever felt for, and I don't see him magically becoming well adjusted and dropping off flowers.
@@thewitchiebunny I know a bit of Japanese and have seen the difference between the subtitles and actual speech in spots. They still do a good job of translating the overall feel but they add a little twist to it similar to 90s anime like Ocean Dub did with early Dragonball Z. It works out nicely.
Apparently the canonical reason for why you can beat Zenos at the end of Stormblood is rage. He remarks on the value of anger and hatred multiple times throughout the story. He cultivates Fordola and Yotsuyu to embrace this rage inside of them to subjugate the masses, as he tries through each encounter to make sure you hate him more and more as the story progresses. He is delighted when he sees your progress at the end of the Ala Mhigo dungeon, implying that this is what he's been waiting for. The fact that he's playing a part to get you there is further mentioned after you defeat Shinryu. He remarks that he's "played his part to perfection". This selfsame part was most likely originally played to try and get a worthwhile battle from the rebels in Ala Mhigo and Doma. He wanted to sow the seeds of hatred so that someone might rise from the masses, so that he'd find someone worthy of the hunt. I suppose this would be an example of Zenos using his power for his own selfish wants. Instead he finds you, someone who is already strong but lacks the personal stakes to give their all against a foreign foe. This is just from what I've seen so far, as I'm still in Shadowbringers. But I think Zenos is neat. 👍
Also just noticed but the lighting for Zenos before he kills his father is the same as the lighting used for your character when you watch Thordan die at the end of Heavensward. Kinda neat.
Late to the party but I didn't understand him at all until I was scrolling through some spicy Zenos memes and someone jokingly asked what kind of s*xual he was. Someone else responded "Combat s*xual" and suddenly it all made sense. He lives for nothing else than the thrill of combat, nothing else is engaging to him or makes him feel anything. He is very clear with his intentions too, telling you over and over he just wants to fight and is even willing to wait until you finish your mission so you can give him you're full attention. My favorite Zenos moment is at the end. After you two are left alone at the edge of existence. I was fed up with him and the end of the worlds crisis was handled already so I admitted I wanted to kill him. He was so happy! He cheered and celebrated! Bloodthirsty me was so ready to kick his butt, yelling "Bring it B*tch!" I was kinda sad to leave him there after such a wonderful expression of genuine happiness but sure as heck wouldn't want to bring him back. I feel the lack of tension is why the WoL beat him though. Every time we'd met him prior we were doing something important, more was on our mind. With so much on the line we couldn't be fully present. At the edge of existence it was just him and us. The worlds were saved, the battle was won. Now it's just us, nothing in our way or distractions/responsibilities holding us back. The only time we've been allowed to let loose and think of nothing but the person in front of us. Your explanation makes sense too, maybe it's both. We hate him so much AND have nothing left to lose, why wouldn't we fully commit?
I loved Zenos since I first met him. Almost nothing from the short story told me anything I couldn't already peace together from MSQ itself. Though the father was "shocked" that Elidibus did take Zenos body, Varis in no way shape or form after the reveal showed any remorse to his son's corpse being puppeted around. Nor make any form of demand to return the body back to the grave, the dad used the body as much as Elidibus did. Here's a few things to think about on Zenos, for here is the build up discussion. For two opposing factions, to have a "champion" on each faction is just the expected in story telling about factions at war unless told otherwise. Each faction will have their, "hero" to say. ie. Metroid IP has Samus for the Federation, the space pirates had the many bosses and Ridley. The Garlean Empire is such a huge force that has conquered and controlled land all across Etherys that to even imply that the Empire doesn't have a good amount of champions of it's own would need some writing excuse to explain why. Then if the Empire does have champions of its own, then who is the best of the best among them. Who would strike fear at the mere presence of such a foe, in the case of Stormblood, this was Zenos. It could of honestly been any other Legion commader, but the story wrote it for Zenos. So it became Zenos, no need to make a deeper explanation for that unless you want to go into the discussion of how an empire that large with that much influence should of only had Gaius as a champion and that's it. For Zenos in endwalker, he was perfect for the central message of the theme of the story. Think about what the theme was Endwalker was, to find your own little joy in a world of despair and to be happy with that little joy. For every moment we met Zenos, not a single time did he smoke to show that he was ever turning into a Blasphemy. Why? Zenos little small joy of facing the WoL is more then enough to have him continue living until he faces the WoL again. Just because it isn't a joy you, yourself approves of doesn't invalidate his joy of it. Zenos doesn't need the approval of the people, the audience, the players for Zenos to like what he likes to keep his life going. It's destructive, yes. But that is kinda the point. Regardless if the joy is destructive or not, a person should not change what they like or who they are to get the "upvotes" from other people. He's living his life, his way, for his sake, not yours or anyone elses. He's a monster yes, I will no dispute this, but I respect his choice because he made it his choice and not because of "circumstances of his creation". We will meet people like this, they exist. We are not supposed to attach our lives to people like this, which is why his actions, though respectable, are not to be copied or followed. I respect his choice but I can also not condone them as well. Now for his final lines I always found interesting. People say that they would like to walk away and I wonder, "why?". I'm not thinking in a "like him or hate him way." Zenos tells you his motive in life. He loves fighting and will not stop seeking out the WoL. So what can you break down from what he says at the end? Zenos will never stop causing trouble for you or your friends as long as he lives. He is a monster and will not stop being a monster. So what does that say about the players who want to walk away when a Monster tells you that he won't stop causing problems? You walk away from him, any and all deaths he causes from living, especially since you have a chance to permanently stop him, are on the hands of the WoL. Why take that chance to let him live another day? What is going through the mind of the player who doesn't see the next potential threat and decides, "Nah, I'm just going to walk away because reasons." I'm not saying to fight Zenos to make him happy, I'm saying to stop Zenos because he's telling you that he's going to continue to be a threat. To walk away isn't an option, should never be an option. The choice is obvious, regardless if it's what Zenos wants or not.
To add an additional bit of lore and psych into this, Zenos was more than just depressed or aimless. He is a psychopath. While depression is often feeling nothing, Zenos takes it a step further and simply CANNOT feel anything. He is not capable of emotion. Not like most people anyways. But what he DOES have is a working sympathetic nervous system. He CAN feel adrenaline and he CAN feel pain. So starting as a kid, according to his short stories posted on the official FFXIV website, he is a genius, good at anything he tries, but shows no enthusiasm for any of it and his father wants nothing to do with him, so he is alone most of the time. Everything is just empty boredom.....until he goes hunting and starts mandatory combat training. Because then 2 things happen: he gets truly hurt for the first time and he gets his first taste of adrenaline. These are now the only two "feelings" he's ever had other than the "stinking mire of banality" as he calls it. So he chases them with reckless abandon. His Ascian blood makes him bigger and stronger than the other kids just like his grandfather before him. (Note: Emet is not his grandfather, he is his great-grandfather. His grandfather is Emet's direct son and he is said to have been a truly MASSIVE person who also went mad and killed himself because he started remembering the Final Days). His size makes combat easy which is NOT what he wants, but practice makes perfect regardless of whether you want to get better and soon, he was the best. And the sticky uncomfortable grey boredom seeps back into every moment of his life as combat no longer gives hi mthe adrenaline rush he needs. So he goes to war and that's a little more fun but eventually gets too good at that too. And then there's YOU. The WoL. An equal. Someone who is also constantly improving. Constantly growing. Always a challenge. Always a glut of the 2 feelings he is capable of: the thrill of battle and the sting of pain. You can notice in many cutscenes that Zenos really only stops "playing with his food" when someone lands a hit on him, like when Lyse breaks his helmet. The first time he tastes defeat in Ala Mhigo, it is so sweet, so perfect, that he kills himself rather than sink back into the sludge. But he doesn't die and he takes this as a sign .That there can be more. That he can be more. That it can be even BETTER. And so he chases that. This is what he refers to as "the hunger". The need to fill the void, to feel SOMETHING. ANYTHING. And you're the only way to get it until finally he dies satisfied, knowing that for one glorious fight, he felt human. Psychopaths are not capable of empathy and so when he sees the thrill of battle and sting of pain on your face instead of naked fear or resignation as he's used to, he assumes you are the same. That you are also here to fight for nothing more than the fun of a good fight and so he thinks he has found a friend. It depends on your WoL but I think most people play their WoL as a hero and so, you aren't doing that. You're fighting FOR something. The thrill of the fight and whether you enjoy is entirely up to your RP and that RP element really changes how a lot of people react to this character. Are you a kindred spirit? Or do you just see a monster fixated on you? I love that some people hate him and some people love him because yes, depending on who you and your WoL are, those are both fully understandable reactions to him. I love Zenos...but then again, everyone always says that Lalafells are evil. >:)
Good analysis. Fully agree'd with this explanation. However, instead of the kindred spirit thing, it could be possible that he is acknowledging that your character is seeking the thrill from Adventure. Because with his last speech, he is acknowledging you as just that. An Adventurer, rather than a Hero. Because that *IS* where we started from. Remember the Chocobo Cart ride into the starting city? The answer you gave the old man? He also asks you what you're hoping for when riding in. You can answer with multiple choices. They are, I believe, Fortune, Glory or Power. Regardless of any of them, really if you were anything like Ardbert, you were just truly in it for the thrill of the adventure. Alternatively, it's essentially asking you, the player, what you played the game for. Did you play it for the adventure? The thrill of it all? The story? The battles? Could you really deny that you enjoyed those particularly challenging battles from your perspective as the player? I think many people don't even consider that with how they dislike him even towards the end. However, at the end, the right answer in my opinion will always be to Zenos "That, I cannot deny."
Personally I'm one of the players that really disliked Zenos but not for his character but rather how he's used by the story, an unkillable boss that wins because the game demands he does so. I always hate that in games, he's not winning those boss fights because players can't kill him from a lack of skill or trying, but rather because there's a straight up 'you die' mechanic. Without those he could be beaten, no doubt, and it sucks, it sucks a lot but I also understand that the devs can't really do anything else. If they had really just given him level 80 stats and put him up against us at 70 I feel like it'd just be better overall, maybe juice him up to 85 or even 90 if needed... Anyways that's why I hated Zenos and going into Endwalker I just felt like there's no way in hell they could've made the kill-stick psycho into something even remotely as interesting and enjoyable as Emet-Selch. I'd argue I was right, what we get in Endwalker pales in comparison but ultimately Zenos does earn his spot as a close 2nd/3rd in the rankings of good well written villains even if he doesn't appeal to me. I understood why he did what he did, I got his motivations and drives, but it just falls short in every conceivable way when measured up, hell, Emet's appearance at the end of Endwalker has more emotional depth and nuance than all of Zenos during the entirety of the expansion.
@@boanoah6362 I like Zenos, but I feel they didn't do as good a job as they could to make him a full character in the game instead of having to do homework for that (seems to be a trend in Japanese entertainment). I also feel that him and other Garlean Characters that were batshit nuts, they were made like that because throughout the story to me they felt more sympathetic than the characters you help. It's like having the worst of the worst to remind people, "HEY, HEY, REMEMBER THEY'RE BAD GUYS!"
And there is one aspect where we ARE similar. we both do have fun in combat, to some level. But our mortal combat is not for the sole reason of fun, its primarily to accomplish a goal like saving our friends, the world or w/e. It is just also fun.
@@rednova2212you can also answer with nothing to that question which I chose because my WoL doesn’t want any of these things. She just likes helping people out and enjoys traveling. The fight for the world was not on her to do list 😅. And as a player I enjoy decorating houses and dressing up my character as well as story, all battles are hindrance to my enjoyment of the game, so Zenos really doesn’t speak to me at all as my mirror because he isn’t in any way. It’s my biggest gripe with him as a character I cannot relate to him in any capacity, but game acts as if I should and it’s cognitive dissonance to me 😅. I get that most players enjoy game mechanics but I’m the rare kind that doesn’t, not really xD. I don’t mind them but if I can avoid doing roulettes I definitely will.
I once watched a video long ago about Paddington Bear and why the Paddington Bear movie works, even though the titular character has no character arc and is basically a perfect darling little guy the entire movie. (If anyone knows what video I'm talking about, please let me know!) The author concluded that the reason the movies still work is because they're more about how the people around Paddington are changed by his simplistic but strong perspective on the world and pure actions, which is the core of what makes the story interesting, rather than how Paddington changes as a character. Anyway, there's absolutely no reason I'm bringing this up in the comments section of a video about Zenos.
Something of a necro here, but this phenomenon/archetype has a name. I've heard it called a "flat arc." An obvious oxymoron, to be sure, but there are plenty of good examples. Zuldim brought up Goku, and he's another example. Rarely going through meaningful change, but often inspiring change in those he interacts with.
There is so much to love about Zenos and here's a few more things to think about. Zenos is not a spoiled person- A person having access to more then another person does not make them spoiled. To be spoiled is more of a mental state then a material one. A spoiled person is someone who thinks themselves, in a way, like a Mary Sue. Like the world, in some way, bends around their needs. Like just giving a child Mc Donalds happy meals on every thursday no matter what. Then on the one time you do not, they throw a fit, that child is spoiled even though it's just a Happy Meal. Zenos is more then happy to stand in an imaginary queque that doesn't exist, ie walking away during the moon segment, if something else is more important to the WoL. He is respecting the WoL needs over his own. Zenos teleporting bodies- I'm honestly not sure how many people missed this, but way back in ARR patch 2.2 about Leviathan. A Sahajin Priest specifically says they have unlocked a higher potential of the Echo. Which allowed him to jump his soul from one body to the next if his body was in danger. How you even teach such a technique in the first place is never explained. But if a Sahajin Priest can do that, there is no reason to assume Zenos couldn't do the same thing.
Personally, I really enjoyed having Zenos around since it was interesting to essentially have an mmo player who doesn't give a shit about the story as an NPC against you. Really loved the fear and hunger video, so curious to see your thoughts on this.
I actually really appreciated Zenos' simplicity while going through Stormblood. It's a bit of a pet peeve of mine how many stories about oppresion and cruelty spend a lot of time on the motivations of the perpetrator, even though their woes come nowhere close to weighing up against the harm they inflict. It doesn't mean those stories aren't worth telling (as Endwalker especially shows), but I'm glad Stormblood kept the focus strictly on the victims. Though I completely agree that Zenos makes for a weak climax. Anyway, thanks for helping me sort through some of my own Zenos thoughts. And I fully agree that stories can be good and bad at the same time, and that that's interesting.
You have a beautiful manner of speaking, and I can feel the love and passion you feel for these games. I have never played final fantasy. I probably never will. And yet, here I am, listening to you talk about these characters that I have never met, learning to love them as you do. Thank you.
As a big Zenos fan, I appreciated the perspectives you brought up in the video. Some good and balanced takes! I'd love to see you do one on Minfilia in the future, or really any of the female characters. But Minfilia especially is disregarded by the fandom even though I think she had a lot of good moments.
As far as female characters go, I was thinking Lady Iceheart/Ysayle might be one I'm interested in covering after Emet, especially since I haven't covered Heavensward much at all yet. Minfilia, and what they did with her in Shadowbringers (and Ryne) would be an interesting one to tackle! Tricky for me since I'm pretty sure she was around back in 1.0, and I first started playing in ARR.
SO I'm in the "loves Zenos camp" but you forgot the fight with Zenos in 5.2-3? where elidibus is making you fight all of the bosses again to prove a point.
Your example of the lich king is interesting because in this case the WOL is the Lich King. They have been built up as this nearly unstoppable force. A peerless warrior, a god killer. Then out of nowhere this Garlean prince that we know nothing about beyond “he’s scary” comes and hands the WOL there butt. It felt super cheap. At least in the Lich Kings case Tirion was a legend and had the legendary Ashbringer, and the build up to that moment was amazing. One a side note: unlike WoW XIV generally does a fantastic job of telling you all the story bits you need in game, there is not a bunch of novels you need to read ect ect to get the full picture. Zenos is a rare exception, that short story at least tells you why finding a powerful opponent is so important to him. Regardless of how shallow that reasoning may be, it’s still there.
Congratulations on your 2 years on RUclips. I'm a very new viewer/listener to your channel and have only listened to your FFXIV-related topics and absolutely enjoyed listening to them while working. It was very nice to listen to these, in a way, to look back on how well the story was written with these characters/themes for the game, and am looking forward to your future videos. As a funny side note, I finished listening to your video revolving around Fandaniel as today, you posting this video, and after I refreshed my feed, I saw THIS video pop up on my feed and immediately started listening to this one, lmao. Great work!
I appreciate your XIV videos as a way to succinctly express some of the thoughts I have about the characters and game that I'd like to speak to my friends about but would be hard to coherently express without hours of going back to things or getting sidetracked hundreds of times.
I liked Zenos since his very first appearance in Stormblood. He felt menacing but human, compared to the primals and dragons we had fought up until then he was a more personal threat. His character and how disassociated from every day life he was until he entered combat and lit up was so intriguing. I feel that XIV as a whole will be weaker without him going forward, he is my favorite character in the game. Also he has the best VA.
Zenos does curb stomp us initially. but with us its not the same as with everyone else. that's why he doesn't kill us but tells us to live and get stronger. He sees someone who can give him the battle- and defeat he wants.
I love Zenos, hands down one of the best villains I've ever experienced. He's a psychologically broken soul with a bloodlust for combat and a sick ass design. His personal connection and parallel to the player, as well as his representation of the themes of the final expansion of the first arc are both so well done.
Is he broken though? He’s rather sane in my opinion. All his choices was of his own volition. He just doesn’t fit the common mold like other people usually do. He has different interests and desires. He just had the unfortunate disposition to find joy in a specific thing and that thing alone. Combat. Other people can find entertainment or joy in fighting, but that’s not the only thing in their life that would give them that feeling as an example.
@@acgearsandarms1343 it's notable that zenos didn't find joy in combat, he actually hates how boring combat is to him normally. What he's addicted to is the rush of emotions he gets when his life is threatened. Combat means nothing to him if the enemy doesn't have an actual chance of beating him
@@acgearsandarms1343 finally someone acknowledging Zenos's agency in that he made his choices, from each axis of cruelty to act of apathetic mercy, of his own volition people love to say 'varis didn't love him enough so zenos's murdering and sadness is ENTIRELY Varis's fault' like bruh...
Not done watching by a long shot but stopping to commend you on the correct au ra hairstyle Edit: finished the video, great job! Pretty much all my thoughts about Zenos summed up in there along with a bunch of stuff I never considered
Isn’t it ironic that someone like Zenos has a reason to live and didn’t succumb to despair when so many others did who had arguably more fulfilling lives? He has a reason to continue even if his motive and desire is questionable or unconventional to most people. He didn’t care for nor understood what other people lived for, just couldn’t growing up. Admittedly he wanted to end his own life originally once he felt he had his fulfillment back in the Royal Menagerie. But through circumstances, he still found something past death that gave him a reason to ultimately ended up working in our favor and got him what he wanted. I hate him, but as a person. Not as a character. He fulfilled his role, no more or less and was at least honest about him and somewhat is the player. What does that say that someone like him could live on where others could not?
Loved the video, great work as always ♥ The only thing I wanna hop in and nitpick is calling the short story a 'retcon'. I feel like that term is overused a lot, at least with my own understanding of it. I always understood retcon to be retroactive rewriting "no no no, THIS is actually what happened" as opposed to just, going in and filling in backstory post-hoc. My understanding based on the video is that this is more of a case of the later, that a story was written in after the fact, but it wasn't overwriting something that was there before, just filling a void. That being said, everything you said ABOUT how that kind of stuff would have been great to be told in game is totally true, and I'm in no way trying to assert that writers 'had this backstory in mind the whole time' or anything like that. But yeah, as long as pre/backstory isn't contradicting or overwriting already established story, IMO it can't fully qualify as a retcon.
I agree that "retcon" is a term that's definitely been overused, which has kind of warped the meaning to mean "overwriting old storytelling." I think since it is literally an abbreviation of "retroactive continuity," almost any sort of prequel or backstory like this would qualify. But, yeah, this is definitely me using it in a very by the letter and not in the spirit of what "retcon" means to prove a point. I don't actually have a problem with retcons when used well, most of Shadowbringers and Endwalker's best story beats fit the definition much more tightly, but because they rule, people are happy with it. I do see your point though and don't necessarily disagree that I'm stretching the definition here.
There are few notifications that make me drop whatever I am doing an watch. Your videos are one of them. You have a gift for dissecting characters and explaining their motivations.
Zenos would probably wonder why you’re making this video when you can instead be out killing things. **SPOILER** I still remember when he breaks through the wall during the encounter with the end singer. You’re like “is it another monster!? Oh god it’s worse than a monster it’s Zenos!” Then I laugh when he says, “is that your prey? Why is it still alive?” It’s very telling that, besides himself, he refers to your opponent as “prey.” That word use speaks a lot about his personality and perspective.
@@ivybennett2274 Yeah, when he asked that I was thinking, "boy, are you over estimating my abilities." Chick can fly, throw planets, alter reality...all she'd have to do is stand out of range and murder us if Zenos hadn't shown up to give us a ride.
"But why is it still alive? Surely it is no match for you." At first caught me off guard, like... "You're talking my game up?" But then my brain caught up and I was like. "Oh, yeah... This is Zenos. Of course he's talking up my game here."
good MORNING king my sister and I have woken up and just seen the alert for this video and we're currently shouting about what a good day today is will comment again at the end of the video but I wanted u to know about our nice morning u made! so excited I only started to like zenos after I fucking killed him so I'm thrilled to see how our journies match up and don't!
@@ZuldimYT Thank you for your video!! I enjoyed it very much. You and I had very similar experiences with him, and I appreciated hearing you lay everything out. Our reads on it differ mostly in two crucial aspects: 1. I absolutely would have skipped his fight the first time, because it's what my WoL would have done 2. I am /really glad/ they didn't give you the option to, BECAUSE I(, world's number one natsuko ishikawa stan) was forced(obliged) to go 'well, this is (WoL)'s story now. Let's make this make sense.' Because I felt my taste-reflexes tested so pleasantly by it, it felt like a fun challenge instead of, in other places and with other storytellers, being really annoyed and aggravated by it. Instead, it made me take my babygirl to more interesting, complicated places! and then the big happy sappy ending felt even more sweet because it was even more earned. Otherwise yes yes god let this guy stay dead please please please. Very VERY excited about the upcoming Emet-Selch video. He is indeed the best fucking guy
Absolutely beautiful story beautifully presented. While I don't play FFXIV (though I do play WoW), I've loved experiencing its stories through your videos. Excited for whatevers next!
I am honestly amazed how easy this was for me to follow. I never played any of the Final Fantasy games and had very little to no exposure to the lore in it, so I while did wait until I had the time to watch this video in full in one go I very much assumed I'd just be confused for most of it. Instead I just found myself having a lot of fun while learning about an interesting if flawed character in a world I knew nothing about! Big compliment for how accessible you made this while (judging by the comments) still being good for fans of the game and not boring people knowing the story with long backtracking and explanations. I'm rather mindblown. Definitely going to have to check out your other Final Fantasy videos now!
Thank you! I try to write all of my content to be as accessible as possible to anyone watching, whether they're familiar with the material beforehand or not, so it means a lot to hear that I'm doing a good job at it.
Really interesting video, Ive always liked Zenos but this video essay really puts alot of my feelings into words that I couldnt express myself. One of my favorite characters is Elidibus, who I feel is extremely complex and fascinating character.
I'm glad I was recommended this. This was clearly a thought out and well organized deconstruction. I especially loved the opening with the Nicholas Cage stuff! At the end of the day, art and entertainment is different for everyone. What flies for one person isn't always gonna be good for another, and that's ok. As for me. Is Zenos Good or Bad? To me, he's both. I found the concept of Zenos in Stormblood to be a wonderful change of pace and the final climax in Ala Mhigo to be both brutal and memorable. However, I also found his sudden resurrection to be awkward and forced as it felt like he was now simply there for the sake of being there. But all in all. Wonderful video my friend! I'll have to listen to more of your work.
My own WoL is an interesting case because she started out with no emotions but bloodlust, and even after unlocking her ability to feel other things, it was still her primary emotion and motivation until Shadowbringers. So my WoL got this really neat mix of "finally someone gets me" and "the only person to understand me is a monster, what is wrong with me". I love Zenos and his simple motivations- which I never saw as being a one-sided character, just a depressed and obsessed person. We really don't need more political and philosophical villians since we have so many, and sometimes it's nice to have someone who's just there to fight. He's my battle buddy! And he throws a neat wrench into Garlemald just by existing, as what he does in his one-minded focus on getting a good fight out of you often runs directly counter to what he should be doing as Viceroy/Crown Prince/Garlean citizen. About him as Stormblood antagonist, I think he serves nicely to make Stormblood the WoL's story too. As noted, it is an incredibly political expansion, and its main focus is in bringing together many disparate factions for a common goal. I love that about it, and the times when that pays off- the storming of Doma Castle and Ala Mhigo- are some of my favorite moments in the game. The true end boss, for the story of those peoples, is the empire itself, and those are their battles. Stormblood is not an expansion that is really about us. But since we are the main character and all, we need a personal foe. He's the foe who stands specifically in *our* way. And I think having a grand final confrontation that allows us to have our win while keeping it mostly separate from the people's win (even if the world assumes otherwise) is a really smart move for the expansion. I absolutely agree with how the forced defeats weren't well executed. Felt like "I was doing so well though, why did you make me stop..." Interestingly I didn't realize that Zenos was talking to the player until I heard everyone talk about it. It just made sense to me that the Warrior, even not my personal one, started as an adventurer with some kind of drive for a fight, or we wouldn't be here.
The simplicity of zenos is in itself a great part of his character. He is above acting, he is above pretending, he is royalty of garlemald(which gives him the luxury to not have to care about anything, but personal fulfillment) and the single strongest non Warrior of Light combattant in the world, no one can criticize him and survive. He very much is likely the most self-conscious or at least self understanding personality, he knows exactly what he (and no one else for him) wants and is bound by nothing else, there is no need for trying to find some deeper meaning or intentions, he tells you them in the face, the first time you meet him. It is pure. It is unapologetic. It is raw. It isn't some world ending threat, it is a personal one. He is the perfect counter to the complete over the top idealistic and abstract threat to existence that the endsinger is. Between loving his "ending" in stormblood (both his discussion with us, as well as his cinematic "death") and the final fight with him being my favourite part of endwalker. I love zenos and i love that the WoL struggled and collapsed in exhaustion after the fight. Not after fighting great elder wyrms (Nidhogg) or Ancient old ones (ascians/Emet-Selch) or literal deities of light and dark do we crumble, but after finding our mortal equal, the one thing he was looking for himself. That fight being not a duty is perfect too, as it is a literal one versus one *at the end of the universe* and both know it is the last time they see and fight each other. It is a melancholic fight. It is like saying goodbye to a close friend, except you were never close, nor friends. It likely comes down to me really enjoying his endings and his general drive being so... relatable i guess. It is the answer to the core question in philosophy "why live?", find something that fulfills you on a personal level, that drives you and follow it. It isn't to live and work for the dead (emet selch, nidhogg) nor is it meaningless (endsinger), nor is it some grandiose upholding of an ideology of society (galvus, The church in heavensward). I have totally felt targetted by zenos meta commentary when it happened, as it was in my mind part of the story of my character. It likely is why it feels so personal, he doesn't just see the literal MSQ, he sees how you were pushing yourself in optional side Quests, not for saving others, but to beat a challenge. I kinda missed the wholistic meta commentary on me as the player. Also, totally agree, for Zenos to be a good character, he needs to stay dead at the end of the universe.
I found your channel through your Fear and Hunger video, and then right after that watched this one. Congrats on 2 years of youtube, I am definitely going to watch more of your past one's and look forward to seeing what you have to say on games in the future. Got yourself a new sub. It's very refreshing to find someone who doesn't just go over the events of a game, but talks about their personal impact on themselves and actually puts more emphasis on the PLAYERS interaction with a game, not just the game itself. Also it helps that you have very good mic quality (trust me, after going through so many fear and hunger videos, because I wanted to know about the game but don't have the time to play something like that over and over, and like... most of them were like listening to mumbled static, this is a giant plus)
So, Stormblood is less a political theme, and more a theme of empire and resisting empire. Zenos is an example of what happens to soldiers in empire. All the wonders of the world are at the finger tips of the Garleans, but they do not come by them in any way other than combat. For Zenos then, a tool of the empire, the only thing that matters is battle, and the only thing that can ever produce value is battle. You bring up anime poisoning, but ignore the most crucial anime poison - fighting spirit. When you first fight Zenos, you are not honed in conviction or goal. You've been dragged into this rebellion through wicked deeds, and your goal is to have everyone survive. You're not engaging in battle for an outcome; you're engaging just to survive the empire. By the end, when you rematch him, you and your friends have a common and attainable goal. You are battling Zenos with a purpose, and he has never battled or encountered anyone else with a goal beyond survival in battle. Everyone in the empire and subjugated by the empire are fighting for survival. Their life is more important than the battle. Fighting Zenos, you are prepared to sacrifice your life for a cause. Zenos is willing to sacrifice his life for a true battle. You are willing to sacrifice your life for your friends. This common bridge comes together in Endwalker. He is vaguely redeemed because he battles the Endsinger with you, because he wants to battle you. He is fighting a battle for something more than the battle. He has transcended his simple state by the nature of assisting you in saving all life. He's a foil for the player, which is why he's so annoying to most people. He's the 1337 PVPer who ganks low levels to get a fight when no one wants one. He's a simple character, but a great embodiment of empire.
I try my hardest to make these FF14 videos accessible to people who don't play the game, I think of them like VaatiVidya lore videos since FF14's story is incredible but requires hundreds of hours of playing an MMO to experience, although I'll admit this one in particular might be a little inside baseball.
I actively hope they resurrect Zenos, only because I feel like they missed out on a golden opportunity to turn *him* into an adventuring partner for an expansion, similar to Estinien, who'll get to fight powerful opponents in return for getting to hang around his friends.
@@Hadosama But that's the interesting thing! Because once Zeno's has what he wants, it gets an avenue for further working through Zeno's crippling depression
A few months ago, I stumbled across the Fandaniel video and loved every second of it but somehow fell off and didn't subscribe afterwards. Just got done binging this and the Garlemald video the last couple of days between my day job, freelancing and therapy. Made the commutes and late nights infinitely more bearable. Absolutely love the vids and the way you let certain scenes just play in between commentary instead of only ever describing them is a really nice touch!
i think another aspect of the final fight with zenos is that throughout endwalker it's all about discovering meaning through/dispite suffering and dispair, so when zenos aproches you and says the one thing that gives his life meaning is to burn through his life fighting you, to deny him is to deny his life meaning and deny the message of the game.
I personally love Zenos, but he really, really needed the Chronicles of Light story to be *told* to the player. Without it he just falls flat until Endwalker. And don't get me started on the entire dropped plotpoint about Emet-Selch doing *something* to him that gave him the Amaurot dreams. So much, from his strength to his apathy and nihilism, could have been explained and expanded upon with that. Pros and cons of longform, episodic story telling, I suppose. As for the video, loved it! Zenos is a fascinating character for good and bad, both story-wise and meta, reasons and you did him, and the whole discussion around him, justice!
The thing with Emet-Selch really was distracting when rewatching all of Zenos story at once for this video. My headcanon is that it's just because he's... what, an eighth Ascian/Ancient? But I think it's definitely a dropped story thread.
@Zuldim Maybe? Fandaniel's line about "Emet-Selch found a way?" when Zenos talks about the dreams throws me off, honestly. Cause by Emet-Selch's own admission he's had more than enough children over the millenia, so what makes the Galvus line so special? We don't know if Varis or any others had Amaurot dreams, as far as I know, so that's a dead end. Guess we'll never know.
I think you hit the nail on the head for me about the autonomy in the final fight. Everything else I can enjoy about Zenos' character from a writing perspective, and Endwalker did go a long way to fleshing him out in a way that made him much more interesting than he was in Stormblood. But to me, the biggest disconnect was the whole 'a mirror darkly' throughline to the WoL. It felt forced. I never once felt Zenos challenged my perceptions of my morality or motives in a way other villains did, such as Emet-Selch. A big part of that is my own reason I enjoy the game. A big reason I dedicate time to FFXIV over other games - especially MMOs - is that I'm attached to the world. I love the story. I love the characters. Yes, I enjoy the content and combat and raid bosses, but a large part of the reason I play this game over something like, say, WoW, is because I'm genuinely attached to the setting in a way I'm not to other games. And I think that's where Zenos' motives and speech before the final combat ring hollow to me. It's not that he challenges the idea I enjoy combat more than I admit, it's that he specifically says 'this you do for no other reason.' That's where he loses me. There ARE other reasons. If there weren't, I'd just be playing a game with a story and setting I didn't care about. I also just think think it contradicts a lot of the themes in the expansion. Venat's whole arc was teaching you to find meaning in a meaningless world. But she did so by the forming of bonds and finding beauty in the world, something Zenos himself admits he can't see or understand. She fought and clearly enjoyed a good fight - as shown by your duel with her - but she didn't do so at the expense of her love for the world. Zenos coming along right at the end after you've saved Meteion with the power of hope and being empowers by your companions, saying 'come on brah I know you just wanna 1v1 mid lane with no distractions' feels contradictory. I'm sure others feel different, and it was good the designers gave them some impetus to respond. But you're right, not being allowed to walk away from the fight just felt like it was depriving me the chance to show how I really felt about Zenos, not as a character but in terms of me and my character's disposition towards him: apathy. His words wrang hollow. They aren't my views or ideals. I didn't care to placate him. It doesn't help that the other options you can choose before the fight cause him to smugly go 'I don't believe you, you're just in denial, I know you better than you know yourself' and it's like um, don't tell me how I feel fuckboi, you only just discovered the power of mutual cooperation and now you're trying to tell me how I should feel about positive nihilism. Also completely apropos of anything to do with the story, I feel a big part of the issue is that I feel characters like Zenos just attract the same kind of obnoxious hedonistic nihilists every other edgy nihilistic 'I just want to fight and get strong' character does. No not every Zenos fan is that archetype, but there's enough of the kinds of people who go on that he has a point and that nothing matters so you should pursue the need to meet that singular bliss at all costs - completely missing the point of Alisae's retort - that I feel that's what inflames a lot of the discussions around him.
I cannot speak as someone who has played and loved, liked or hated the game but I can speak as someone who loves stories. I had liked Zenos as a character when you briefly mentioned him/his arc in Fandaniel video. I love characters who show a positive character growth and characters who seem/are one dimensional in a story with complex characters. That's because I know the writers can write a complex character and so, I feel like the character is intentionally one-dimensional. Add to that the fact that Zenos ended up seeing the player character as an actual friend and respecting them enough to aid them in a battle and then _ask_ for a battle instead of demand it made me like his character more. After watching (ehh..listening to) this video, I feel like I am not incorrect in making that assessment. I realize that my assessment of his character from watching two videos will be quite different from having to deal with his character thoughout playing a game. But I assume, if one ends up liking his character, it would feel more rewarding than me liking him via a small portion in a 3 hour video and then a 1.5 hr video.
It's super interesting to hear the take of someone who has experienced this story vicariously through my videos. I'm glad you were able to watch and enjoy these without having played the game, I try to make them accessible to a wider audience because these stories are so special I believe they deserve to be experienced by people who don't want to or can't spend 300+ hours on an MMO. Of course it'll never be the same as playing the game yourself, and it'll be filtered through my own perspective, but it sounds like it was at least comprehensible, and that makes me feel like I've done my job right. Thank you for taking the time to watch and respond!
@@ZuldimYT You have done a phenomenal job in making the video accessible to a wider audience. Before I found your channel, I never even imagined I'd be following a creator/channel that's not Game Theory who exclusively makes videos on video games, let alone being so excited about watching a video about a game that I didn't know a single thing about before watching your videos. A video about the _characters_ in a game I know nothing about. Honestly, you are an amazing storyteller and video-essayist and I am excited to know more about this game and its characters solely through you. I can see this game being to your channel what FNAF is to Game Theory for me. That being said however, I am equally excited for any other video you have planned, no matter the subject of the video.
@@Saphia_ It's really awesome and makes me really happy to hear someone say that. Video games, and specifically the unique stories I believe only games can tell are one of my greatest passions, and I'm ecstatic I can share that with someone who wouldn't otherwise get to experience these stories.
“If my Motives met with your approval would you no longer resent the outcome” this line so encapsulates Zenos’s relationship with the player. Zenos’s first fight i think is what drew me to him and why i think he worked for me. I liked the fact he shows up to show you just how strong he is. I heard a theory and i think i like it. Zenos functions as a representation of someone who sees a game only as a challenge. As a player who doesnt care about the story but cares about their own power fantasy.
I stumbled on this video much later than you put it out but I offer you my praise in coordinating your thoughts as well as you did in a video about a character and story that are giant and unwieldy. I would be intimidated to start a project like this for many reasons so I am glad i was able to enjoy it from your perspective. I started playing ffixiv just several months before EW and I had a lot of free time and was able to get through the ENTIRE msq without skipping anything or rushing through and finished ARR through EW almost back to back because I finished SHB just a day before EW launched so it was a completely unbroken playthrough. I am someone who often doesn't get too analytical about stories the first time I experience them. I just ...experience them. Then I go back and rewatch or re-read and develop my ideas more but FFXIV is SOO massive that I am intimidated to go back and redo sections of the story in NG+. I wouldn't really know where to start so I just accept that I will have to squeeze as much enjoyment out of that first time I do something and experience it. The concept of Zenos speaking to us the players at the end with the "not so different you and I" speech is probably one of the most "literary" things I've seen done in a video game. It's not so 4th wall breaking that it takes me out of the scene but just recognizable enough that I can imagine him speaking to me and trying to get me to question why I play games or really do many many things. FFXIV is a modern masterpiece perhaps because of where we are in the world today. I don't think a story like this would have made much sense 70 years ago or even 30 years ago. We live in a increasingly isolated and paradoxically connected world. We are told to pursue things for the sake of careers and traditions and cultural norms while also being told what we should care about by others. And all of this constructed world probably starts to feel very tired to many of us. Maybe all of us could take a piece of Zenos's interpretation of our WoL as a form of advice and "seek things for their own sake". Ignore the banal nihilism that has infested the world and pursue something we enjoy with such reckless abandon that it gives meaning to our lives. That is a good lesson or at least some food for thought going forward into modernity. Thanks for the video
In 1.0 the final cutscene for the first main story is Gaius appearing as an unstoppable force tanking every single attack of the Scions, being an being that cannot be taken on alone. They likely tried to recreate this with Zenos but with a different twist.
This was fascinating to listen to. Your voice captures my interest and I am all for it. Even when talking about the character that ruined my enjoyment of the game. Not directly mind you, but due to a woman whom was down bad for Zenos. Still thou you have me hooked and I eagerly await your next video :D
1.1:25:10 haha man that speech of his and my character smirking at him like that when he figured out my dirty secret, that i'm just here for the fun time, i'm just here to fight hard bosses and dominate this world inside and out and be damned the rest of it absolutely sold me, i love him for this and how he's the only character who truly "gets" how i feel about the game. It was so cool seeing the devs (YoshiP) show how they really understand us like that. I really felt very empty knowing he's gone.. but he can't come back. It just won't work
Honestly, this video has made me appreciate Zenos more. I experienced most of his early character... development(?) in the described back-to-back way. I hit max level mid 5.1. So I got the spiel of his death and rebirth in quick succession. I was one of those who initially picked against giving him the rematch, though upon subsequent replays of the story, and reflection on what exactly is being asked of us, I had chosen to give him the acceptance. I am glad however, that so far the only post-6.0 story about Zenos we've gotten is through osmosis by proxy of other characters, though. Subbed, by the way. Long form content about FFXIV has been sorely missing, if you ask me.
Seriously, I love your work. Your editing and scripting are on point. As someone with ADHD who can't stand the thought of sitting through entire movies, I thoroughly enjoyed this. Rapt, I tell ya. Got a good lol when it transitioned to the end of the WoL vs Zenos post-Endsinger scene playing A Father's Pride over top at 24:26 during the criticisms. It was great.
I hope the devs watch this and decide to retroactively implement Zenos' backstory into cutscenes in StB. With how much they've listened to fans in the past especially in contrast to most other MMO's, I wouldn't even doubt it at this point. Just a matter of time. They clearly care about their creation. In regards to the final battle being mandatory. They already had to push back the release date without adding the option to deny the duel. On top of that, I don't recall a single dialogue choice ever having any meaningful narrative impact throughout the entirety of this game.
it's so goddamn exhausting to see everyone chain themselves to the meta response in the final dialogue option with Zenos. Whatever the creators intended, this is a role-playing game, and I was playing the role of my warrior of light, who absolutely does not engage in acts of violence except to defend the innocent. they take no pleasure in the death and misery they cause. They have nightmares about having to kill Rhitatyn, a good but misguided man who just happened to be in their way when trying to stop the Ultima weapon. They don't kill for pleasure, they never have and never will. me sitting behind a screen pushing buttons that make a red bar go down does not change this. So to my WoL, Zenos was a sad, pathetic sociopath who could not conceive of the idea that anyone else had motivations and desires any more complex than his own. It make his end incredibly compelling to me, but in a way that was completely at odds with how everyone else seemed to experience it. I'm one of those people who most likely would have walked away and not fought him if that had been an option. I'm still kind of pissed that the dialogue made it sound like it would be and then they didn't do it. Maybe it's a vain hope that this glimmer of potential empathy might have led him to being a better person, but my WoL felt he'd earned a chance to find a more worthwhile reason to live after helping stop the Endsinger, whatever his personal desires may have been. Though honestly my WoL was tired and just wanted to get back to their friends. In the end I had to settle for 'call it what you want, but I'm not letting you leave this place,' because whatever else Zenos is, he's a serious threat to other people, and despite my WoL's personal desires, ending that threat is still their responsibility.
You've done an excellent job of articulating my thoughts on Zenos and his story as a whole. I hated Zenos through my playthrough. I hated him so much. And somehow, after endwalker, I missed him. I don't know when the shift happened. I don't know if I always loved his character through the hate, but his final words as they happened caught me by surprise. I'll never forget the emotion I felt in that moment; such profound sorrow.
One critique (more of a missed thing): I by no means believe Zenos is portrayed stronger than Nidhogg. Canonically I hope I’m recalling correctly, but Hraesvelgr loaned us his eye so we could compete against Nidhogg after the two Greatwyrms had already fought.
Part of me loves Zenos because he's different from all of the other villains who have complicated motivations for why they're awful and half of them get redeemed at some point. Zenos is largely uncomplicated. His motivations are simplistic and his wants are easy to explain. He's not some sympathetic character who had a traumatic childhood, or his desire for justice has warped into revenge, or did a lot of bad things, but deep down is good guy. He's just evil, plain and simple and sometimes a little unambiguousness is refreshing in this complicated stories.
Moreover though, he's our dark mirror. Like, we didn't set out to get involved in politics, we just joined the Scions because they were people who were getting shit done and they wanted you to help. Even when we are in involved in politics, we're mainly there as support or there in case the situation goes sideways. Zenos is you from the other side. He shows up suddenly and without warning and beats down his enemies with unimaginable might because that's what you do. He doesn't have an extended complicated backstory because you don't. He doesn't have complicated motivations because you don't. You just want to protect and help people. Zenos just wants a challenge. The reason you keep getting stronger each time you fight him is because, that's kind of what you do. You rise to the occasion to defeat the bad guy hurting people. Be it a megalomaniacal military general, or an ancient elder dragon, or a super powered machine from outerspace, or literal gods made manifest you rise to the occasion.
46:00 i never noticed how goofy Alphinaud looks in this scene, it's like he doesn't know what to do so he's just trying to keep himself busy by looking at a random bird on the roof or something. same for Pipin and what's her face but at least she's looking at the screen lol.
One side note on Arthas: the Lich King fought at the top of ICC is a weaker version of the Lich King at the beginning of the xpac. During the quest line starting with "exploited weakness." Tirion destroyed Arthas's heart which was implied to have greatly weakened him. He was weakened enough during the fight at the frozen throne that we could defeat him.
Zenos is a perfect fit for Endwalker due to his mentality. He’s the type of nihilist who recognizes that life has no inherent meaning, but takes the opposite message from it that Hermes did. To Zenos, every action has a meaning because the person making that action chose it, and to him that has value.
This whole video just seems to come at this from the wrong angle to me. Zenos Lives for the moment. The Feeling. The Fight. He does not *WANT* to get stronger, he pursues strength for the fight it will lead to. Hydaelyn represents hope for the future. The eternal struggle forward. The Endsinger despairs at the suffering of the past, rooted in it and doomed to the belief that there is no true way forward. Zenos represents the exact moment in which you live. not the path behind you, not the next step, but the place where your feet are currently planted. Those singular moments. Gone too soon. And Zenos shows that while he has the right of it in theory, In practice you cannot simply live for now. You will find yourself empty and unfulfilled. And the great tragedy of Zenos is that he simply cannot live any other way.
The reason I like Zenos: He is a perfect foil and opposite for our WoL. We are a character that slowly grows in strength due to the connections we form with the people around us. Zenos is a man born with strength at the top, and is thus alienated from those around him. We fight to protect those around us and as a necessity to keep the world safe. Zenos fights because he WANTS to, because that's all he knows, all that gives him joy and pleasure. I do not think his simplicity as a character is BAD. I think his simplicity is what makes him INCREDIBLE.
The best villain in this game and one of my favorite characters. After the amazing conclusion of Stormblood, when my character couldn’t save her friend, she was stuck in some meaningless world that held no stakes for her with that gross piss yellow skybox and the over -the -top “I am charming so people will like me” Remember Me guy. When we finally got back to Eorzea and got to revisit the conflict with her friend, Square robbed her of her agency and wouldn’t allow her to tell Zenos that she loved him dearly as a friend in spite of his evil ways. A man who was never given a chance to be human from birth, that my character could be anything resembling a friend to him or a person who could make him feel human for a moment, that should have embraced. Not shunned. I hope we can meet him again
In reference to the "unsure of what changed other than we were lvl 63 and lvl 65" The WoL still fights several hundred foes between each encounter getting more "experience" as a fighter in combat become both more skilled and stronger. I apply this to each expansion as we fight different classes of foes or just a different type of foe that fights a different way.
I certainly hated Zenos as a character but I really enjoy how this game tells its stories. It made me want to understand Zenos more and I feel like this video helped me do that. I still don’t love Zenos, but I really appreciate him so much more as a character after watching so thank you!
I don't think they knew what to do with him and the character suffered for it. They dropped the thread they had been dangling since ARR with the "true power of the echo" (merging with primals) and never went anywhere with that. They even dropped the late SHB stuff with him having dreams of the final days. It just never went anywhere. I think in Stormblood, he has the same problem as Lyse. They are the victim of the expansion having two writers. For Lyse, all of that character development from Doma including the great scene with she and Hien talking in the jail cell vanished into the wind as soon as they returned to the other writer's story section back in Ala Mhigo. Both writers planted seeds but when they chose Ishikawa to handle the 5.x story, they just had nowhere else for her to go. Zenos felt like a similar situation. He felt like someone that at one time they wanted to be the final big bad of the arc but after the Shadowbringers story direction and the ancients making an appearance, he just had nowhere to go.
One major point of conflict for me that interfered with Zenos making an impact for me is the fact when asked "You seek these pursuits purely for the joy of the fight, with the hope to fill the void", I couldn't really answer with a yes. I don't know if it's a matter that I'm lying to myself or something, but it just didnt resonate Which is why I appreciate video analyses like these because I couldnt quite pull all the threads apart. scenes like the one in Garlemald and his "motivations" were great, but many other details were sort of lost for me. Endwalker is in this really weird boat where it has such an interesting story to tell, yet it rushes through it so much that a lot felt left behind. But I do appreciate your analysis (and others' as well) for digging into the cracks, cause I dont think I would have dug up all the depth on offer here, even if I don't find myself fully resonating with Zenos's ultimate intentions.
Great video, and after this and the other two FFXIV essays I've decided to subscribe! Partly because Emet-Selch is also *my* favourite character and I can't wait to hear what you say about him. :D I'm not the kind of person who can easily break down what I liked about this video or any specific point, but I definitely did like it. It was enjoyable hearing you work through thoughts about this character from both angles. :) Also, missed opportunity when describing the final fight with Zenos at the end of the game to have inserted everyone's favourite sound byte by also describing the fight as "a test of your reflexes!"
Excellent video essay, I thoroughly enjoyed it despite being a certified Zenos hater™️ and I agree with you on most fronts. I greatly enjoy the comparison to community, cause that really does encapsulate the experience of grappling with Zenos. I made a video essay on my main channel about endwalker as a whole about a year back (it's called Endwalker's Answer and is on the Digital Dream Club) and that meant that I had to take Zeno's incredibly seriously and evaluate his place not only in Endwalker's story but also how he related to and furthered it's themes and ideas as such a central character. It was difficult, kind of like eating vegetables as a kid, but I came to a lot of the same conclusions about how Zenos is done well - in endwalker. I ended up writing pages about his positive place in the narrative despite hating him the whole time, and it really does come out to what you've said here: he can't be defined on binary lines, he's neither good nor bad, it all depends. In the end I had to swallow that cognitive dissonance, I had to admit and precisely lay out how he worked and worked well in endwalker while also finding him annoying and shallow and maintaining that he was absolutely the wrong Villain for Stormblood that did a lot to weaken the expansion like a faulty central pillar. Anyway. That's my long-winded way of saying I greatly enjoyed this video and appreciate how well you laid out and dissected Zenos and his position within FFXIV
Second thoughts after my first comment.... I feel like perhaps we would have had less player fatigue with Zenos if we assumed that Zenos was well and truly dead at the end of Stormblood, but with some bizarre teaser, perhaps in the Werlyt Dark dungeon of one of the bosses we encounter being a generic Garlean soldier that for some reason is far more powerful than the trash we fought, and upon defeat, retreats the battle rather than dying. Then post Shadowbringers, perhaps through an echo flashback or through information relayed to us through Gaius or Estinien, we learn about all that happened to Zenos in the post Stormblood story. And from there we discover that this seemingly unusual boss fight in Wyrlit was actually the Garlean soldier inhabited by Zenos's soul. This could have added more intrigue to the character and had his many, many cutscenes feel less like they're as irrelevant as they seemed at the time.
I started ffxiv when ShB was almost done, I watched the intro cutscene and got so hyped by Zenos in it. And I was so dissapointed by him in stormblood.. I wish we had an option to refuse the final fight in ew. I didn't want to do it after everything we went through. He was the last thing I wanted to interact with Edit as I'm watching : so basically, we get robbed of the backtory of the main vilain because it's told in a novel we barely have access to? That's wow level of bad decisions
I really couldn't agree with you more about the bit at the end, was it worth it to bring him back in the first place. I remember vividly when i was playing endwalker, ranting to my friend about how much i despised zenos as a character, and the way his writing always felt cheap, coming back from the dead, seemingly able to and unable to do whatever the writers just happened to need to happen at the moment. And yet when i had done that final fight, it all felt worth it. Except it didn't, I remember saying to her that i still don't agree with them bringing him back, but once they did, this was the greatest ending his character could've had, and it felt worthy to me.
I really appreciated your deep dive here. It made me think of a wild discussion happening on another video about Venat. Knowing the direction the world was going to go especially, were her actions truly justified? I think that morality or critical thought is important to consider when you have Emet and the other Ascians killing millions to enact their plan, or multiple "good guys" like Venat or the Alliance leaders in regards to their more questionable actions. This video definitely gave me that feeling, but I agree. I hope this is truly the end, and not just for Zenos, but Emet, Hytholadaeus, Lahabrea, Venat, and Elidibus. Leave them behind. Truly.
You did miss a Zenos fight. During patch 5.3 Elidibus in Arbert form makes you fight all your friends and allies you've met up to that point. And makes a copy of Zenos. He then takes it back because he realizes even can't control or predict the copy of Zenos that he made.
Zenos putting the player on blast right at the end hit me like a truck. The use of the word Adventurer was really good. By that point in the story WoL's swimming in titles, Scion, Warrior of Darkness, etc. We haven't been an "adventurer" since the Praetorium really.
Thank you for this exercise! I didn't consider Zenos' words in Endwalker as meta-commentary... That does sort of make him better in my eyes. When I originally played, I was roleplaying as my character so his dialogue mostly just rang frustratingly presumptive. My WoL is an extension of myself, as they are with so many other players, and while I the player might enjoy bigger and better challenges, I the WoL fight for more heroic reasons than that. I altogether see him as an annoyance to be rid of, which has some pretty interesting character parallels but for all the wrong reasons. I do wish I was given the option not to fight him, because my sense of justice compels me not to indulge him in his contemptible desires and because it would have accurately reflected my perspective that he's not worth my time. But instead I was given a mandatory battle I neither wanted nor particularly cared for.
30:34 Here is an expansion of that idea At the Invasion of Rhalg Reach You control Lyse and/or Yshtola Vs Zenos while WoL is kept from reaching by Fordola
One note: Zenos doesn't actually *fight* Elidibus. He says as much, that he was looking forward to fighting his own body, but Elidibus scurried away before Zenos had the chance to beat his own ass.
Lmao
He probably freaked out that Emet died and fell back to the moon to collect thoughts/info
FInished watching the video, excellent job. Just wanted to add my two cents. Zenos not only works as a perfect foil for the WoL, but as an essential puzzle piece to one of the core themes of Endwalker: what is the point of going on living, when life is filled with endless suffering and monotony? When there's nothing waiting at the end but... the end? The excrutiating despair that both Hermes and Amon struggle with in the course of their stories, and never manage to find a cure for.
Well, Zenos had the answer to this question this entire time. To live for what makes you happy. If you have even one happy moment in the future to look forward to, then life is still worth living. You can live for that one thing that makes you happy, and that's what keeps life from being meaningless.
Alisaie's famous line to him is an essential part of that lesson too. Because living for what makes you happy won't necessarily mean you can get it. You might have to end up caring about things you wouldn't otherwise care about in order to reach those moments of happiness for yourself. It's an argument for why morality still matters, even in our post-modernist world of life having no meaning aside from what we ascribe to it. If you're living for your own happiness: you're going to *need* other people to make those moments happen in the first place. And so, you better start caring about them.
I really do understand why a lot of people don't like Zenos, but I love him so much. He's probably one of my favorite villains in any story ever and I'm really thankful to FFXIV for giving him to us.
same, Zenos is probably my favourite villain (turned anti-hero/friend?) I have EVER experienced in media. I understand people not relating to him and despising him, but I love his character and especially that final fight.
I looked at it from another angle, a psychological perspective. Zenos professes constantly that he wants the ultimate combat. In reality, what he wants /is to feel/.
This is a man born into royal privilege and opulence. Emperor Varis had no time for him, possibly no care. His mother died when he was very young. The servants that tended to him had no love for him. He was a duty. He did not have any siblings. He never had to struggle for anything.
Zenos was depressed. (Which, tbh, is probably what drew him and Fandaniel together but that's another thought for another time.) He said as much in many of his long winded, poetic diatribes (you know he spoke very close to iambic pentameter sometimes?) That the world is dull, boring, devoid of interest. Except when he's in combat.
It's why he fell in love with the Warrior of Light. (And yes, I really believe in some twisted way he did.) Because, that light burned and he /felt/ something. From that point forward, the die was cast. He would stop at nothing to feel that again, to be close to the WoL one more time.
This is exactly how I view him, thank you.
For the pentameter I wouldn't trust the English version to be this close to the Japanese seeing how much the localisation changes dialogues etc
@@Raven3557 given the attention and care the localization team pays to their translations, i would.
This is 100% the exact same way I see it, and I've flipped Zenos haters who thought he was a shallow and unrelatable character. People who've struggled with depression and felt nothing can more easily spot when someone is seeking something to live for.
And I do believe it was a lust for combat because he never experienced anything else. He was never shown love, so how was he supposed to understand his own feelings? All he knew was that it was a burning desire and passion for the only person he'd ever felt for, and I don't see him magically becoming well adjusted and dropping off flowers.
@@thewitchiebunny I know a bit of Japanese and have seen the difference between the subtitles and actual speech in spots. They still do a good job of translating the overall feel but they add a little twist to it similar to 90s anime like Ocean Dub did with early Dragonball Z. It works out nicely.
Apparently the canonical reason for why you can beat Zenos at the end of Stormblood is rage. He remarks on the value of anger and hatred multiple times throughout the story. He cultivates Fordola and Yotsuyu to embrace this rage inside of them to subjugate the masses, as he tries through each encounter to make sure you hate him more and more as the story progresses. He is delighted when he sees your progress at the end of the Ala Mhigo dungeon, implying that this is what he's been waiting for. The fact that he's playing a part to get you there is further mentioned after you defeat Shinryu. He remarks that he's "played his part to perfection".
This selfsame part was most likely originally played to try and get a worthwhile battle from the rebels in Ala Mhigo and Doma. He wanted to sow the seeds of hatred so that someone might rise from the masses, so that he'd find someone worthy of the hunt. I suppose this would be an example of Zenos using his power for his own selfish wants.
Instead he finds you, someone who is already strong but lacks the personal stakes to give their all against a foreign foe.
This is just from what I've seen so far, as I'm still in Shadowbringers. But I think Zenos is neat. 👍
Also just noticed but the lighting for Zenos before he kills his father is the same as the lighting used for your character when you watch Thordan die at the end of Heavensward. Kinda neat.
Late to the party but I didn't understand him at all until I was scrolling through some spicy Zenos memes and someone jokingly asked what kind of s*xual he was. Someone else responded "Combat s*xual" and suddenly it all made sense. He lives for nothing else than the thrill of combat, nothing else is engaging to him or makes him feel anything. He is very clear with his intentions too, telling you over and over he just wants to fight and is even willing to wait until you finish your mission so you can give him you're full attention.
My favorite Zenos moment is at the end. After you two are left alone at the edge of existence. I was fed up with him and the end of the worlds crisis was handled already so I admitted I wanted to kill him. He was so happy! He cheered and celebrated! Bloodthirsty me was so ready to kick his butt, yelling "Bring it B*tch!" I was kinda sad to leave him there after such a wonderful expression of genuine happiness but sure as heck wouldn't want to bring him back.
I feel the lack of tension is why the WoL beat him though. Every time we'd met him prior we were doing something important, more was on our mind. With so much on the line we couldn't be fully present. At the edge of existence it was just him and us. The worlds were saved, the battle was won. Now it's just us, nothing in our way or distractions/responsibilities holding us back. The only time we've been allowed to let loose and think of nothing but the person in front of us. Your explanation makes sense too, maybe it's both. We hate him so much AND have nothing left to lose, why wouldn't we fully commit?
So Zenos wanted you to use your full power against him, power you subconsiously hold back unless very very angy.
"Michael Myers dropped into Game of Thrones" is such a delightfully succint way to describe Zenos
LMAO. But also GoT has the Mountain
I loved Zenos since I first met him. Almost nothing from the short story told me anything I couldn't already peace together from MSQ itself. Though the father was "shocked" that Elidibus did take Zenos body, Varis in no way shape or form after the reveal showed any remorse to his son's corpse being puppeted around. Nor make any form of demand to return the body back to the grave, the dad used the body as much as Elidibus did.
Here's a few things to think about on Zenos, for here is the build up discussion. For two opposing factions, to have a "champion" on each faction is just the expected in story telling about factions at war unless told otherwise. Each faction will have their, "hero" to say. ie. Metroid IP has Samus for the Federation, the space pirates had the many bosses and Ridley. The Garlean Empire is such a huge force that has conquered and controlled land all across Etherys that to even imply that the Empire doesn't have a good amount of champions of it's own would need some writing excuse to explain why. Then if the Empire does have champions of its own, then who is the best of the best among them. Who would strike fear at the mere presence of such a foe, in the case of Stormblood, this was Zenos. It could of honestly been any other Legion commader, but the story wrote it for Zenos. So it became Zenos, no need to make a deeper explanation for that unless you want to go into the discussion of how an empire that large with that much influence should of only had Gaius as a champion and that's it.
For Zenos in endwalker, he was perfect for the central message of the theme of the story. Think about what the theme was Endwalker was, to find your own little joy in a world of despair and to be happy with that little joy. For every moment we met Zenos, not a single time did he smoke to show that he was ever turning into a Blasphemy. Why? Zenos little small joy of facing the WoL is more then enough to have him continue living until he faces the WoL again. Just because it isn't a joy you, yourself approves of doesn't invalidate his joy of it. Zenos doesn't need the approval of the people, the audience, the players for Zenos to like what he likes to keep his life going. It's destructive, yes. But that is kinda the point. Regardless if the joy is destructive or not, a person should not change what they like or who they are to get the "upvotes" from other people. He's living his life, his way, for his sake, not yours or anyone elses. He's a monster yes, I will no dispute this, but I respect his choice because he made it his choice and not because of "circumstances of his creation". We will meet people like this, they exist. We are not supposed to attach our lives to people like this, which is why his actions, though respectable, are not to be copied or followed. I respect his choice but I can also not condone them as well. Now for his final lines I always found interesting.
People say that they would like to walk away and I wonder, "why?". I'm not thinking in a "like him or hate him way." Zenos tells you his motive in life. He loves fighting and will not stop seeking out the WoL. So what can you break down from what he says at the end? Zenos will never stop causing trouble for you or your friends as long as he lives. He is a monster and will not stop being a monster. So what does that say about the players who want to walk away when a Monster tells you that he won't stop causing problems? You walk away from him, any and all deaths he causes from living, especially since you have a chance to permanently stop him, are on the hands of the WoL. Why take that chance to let him live another day? What is going through the mind of the player who doesn't see the next potential threat and decides, "Nah, I'm just going to walk away because reasons." I'm not saying to fight Zenos to make him happy, I'm saying to stop Zenos because he's telling you that he's going to continue to be a threat. To walk away isn't an option, should never be an option. The choice is obvious, regardless if it's what Zenos wants or not.
To add an additional bit of lore and psych into this, Zenos was more than just depressed or aimless. He is a psychopath. While depression is often feeling nothing, Zenos takes it a step further and simply CANNOT feel anything. He is not capable of emotion. Not like most people anyways. But what he DOES have is a working sympathetic nervous system. He CAN feel adrenaline and he CAN feel pain. So starting as a kid, according to his short stories posted on the official FFXIV website, he is a genius, good at anything he tries, but shows no enthusiasm for any of it and his father wants nothing to do with him, so he is alone most of the time. Everything is just empty boredom.....until he goes hunting and starts mandatory combat training. Because then 2 things happen: he gets truly hurt for the first time and he gets his first taste of adrenaline. These are now the only two "feelings" he's ever had other than the "stinking mire of banality" as he calls it. So he chases them with reckless abandon. His Ascian blood makes him bigger and stronger than the other kids just like his grandfather before him. (Note: Emet is not his grandfather, he is his great-grandfather. His grandfather is Emet's direct son and he is said to have been a truly MASSIVE person who also went mad and killed himself because he started remembering the Final Days). His size makes combat easy which is NOT what he wants, but practice makes perfect regardless of whether you want to get better and soon, he was the best. And the sticky uncomfortable grey boredom seeps back into every moment of his life as combat no longer gives hi mthe adrenaline rush he needs. So he goes to war and that's a little more fun but eventually gets too good at that too.
And then there's YOU. The WoL. An equal. Someone who is also constantly improving. Constantly growing. Always a challenge. Always a glut of the 2 feelings he is capable of: the thrill of battle and the sting of pain. You can notice in many cutscenes that Zenos really only stops "playing with his food" when someone lands a hit on him, like when Lyse breaks his helmet. The first time he tastes defeat in Ala Mhigo, it is so sweet, so perfect, that he kills himself rather than sink back into the sludge. But he doesn't die and he takes this as a sign .That there can be more. That he can be more. That it can be even BETTER. And so he chases that. This is what he refers to as "the hunger". The need to fill the void, to feel SOMETHING. ANYTHING. And you're the only way to get it until finally he dies satisfied, knowing that for one glorious fight, he felt human.
Psychopaths are not capable of empathy and so when he sees the thrill of battle and sting of pain on your face instead of naked fear or resignation as he's used to, he assumes you are the same. That you are also here to fight for nothing more than the fun of a good fight and so he thinks he has found a friend. It depends on your WoL but I think most people play their WoL as a hero and so, you aren't doing that. You're fighting FOR something. The thrill of the fight and whether you enjoy is entirely up to your RP and that RP element really changes how a lot of people react to this character. Are you a kindred spirit? Or do you just see a monster fixated on you? I love that some people hate him and some people love him because yes, depending on who you and your WoL are, those are both fully understandable reactions to him. I love Zenos...but then again, everyone always says that Lalafells are evil. >:)
Good analysis. Fully agree'd with this explanation. However, instead of the kindred spirit thing, it could be possible that he is acknowledging that your character is seeking the thrill from Adventure. Because with his last speech, he is acknowledging you as just that. An Adventurer, rather than a Hero. Because that *IS* where we started from. Remember the Chocobo Cart ride into the starting city? The answer you gave the old man? He also asks you what you're hoping for when riding in. You can answer with multiple choices. They are, I believe, Fortune, Glory or Power. Regardless of any of them, really if you were anything like Ardbert, you were just truly in it for the thrill of the adventure. Alternatively, it's essentially asking you, the player, what you played the game for. Did you play it for the adventure? The thrill of it all? The story? The battles? Could you really deny that you enjoyed those particularly challenging battles from your perspective as the player? I think many people don't even consider that with how they dislike him even towards the end.
However, at the end, the right answer in my opinion will always be to Zenos "That, I cannot deny."
Personally I'm one of the players that really disliked Zenos but not for his character but rather how he's used by the story, an unkillable boss that wins because the game demands he does so. I always hate that in games, he's not winning those boss fights because players can't kill him from a lack of skill or trying, but rather because there's a straight up 'you die' mechanic. Without those he could be beaten, no doubt, and it sucks, it sucks a lot but I also understand that the devs can't really do anything else.
If they had really just given him level 80 stats and put him up against us at 70 I feel like it'd just be better overall, maybe juice him up to 85 or even 90 if needed...
Anyways that's why I hated Zenos and going into Endwalker I just felt like there's no way in hell they could've made the kill-stick psycho into something even remotely as interesting and enjoyable as Emet-Selch. I'd argue I was right, what we get in Endwalker pales in comparison but ultimately Zenos does earn his spot as a close 2nd/3rd in the rankings of good well written villains even if he doesn't appeal to me.
I understood why he did what he did, I got his motivations and drives, but it just falls short in every conceivable way when measured up, hell, Emet's appearance at the end of Endwalker has more emotional depth and nuance than all of Zenos during the entirety of the expansion.
@@boanoah6362 I like Zenos, but I feel they didn't do as good a job as they could to make him a full character in the game instead of having to do homework for that (seems to be a trend in Japanese entertainment). I also feel that him and other Garlean Characters that were batshit nuts, they were made like that because throughout the story to me they felt more sympathetic than the characters you help.
It's like having the worst of the worst to remind people, "HEY, HEY, REMEMBER THEY'RE BAD GUYS!"
And there is one aspect where we ARE similar. we both do have fun in combat, to some level. But our mortal combat is not for the sole reason of fun, its primarily to accomplish a goal like saving our friends, the world or w/e. It is just also fun.
@@rednova2212you can also answer with nothing to that question which I chose because my WoL doesn’t want any of these things. She just likes helping people out and enjoys traveling. The fight for the world was not on her to do list 😅. And as a player I enjoy decorating houses and dressing up my character as well as story, all battles are hindrance to my enjoyment of the game, so Zenos really doesn’t speak to me at all as my mirror because he isn’t in any way. It’s my biggest gripe with him as a character I cannot relate to him in any capacity, but game acts as if I should and it’s cognitive dissonance to me 😅. I get that most players enjoy game mechanics but I’m the rare kind that doesn’t, not really xD. I don’t mind them but if I can avoid doing roulettes I definitely will.
I once watched a video long ago about Paddington Bear and why the Paddington Bear movie works, even though the titular character has no character arc and is basically a perfect darling little guy the entire movie. (If anyone knows what video I'm talking about, please let me know!) The author concluded that the reason the movies still work is because they're more about how the people around Paddington are changed by his simplistic but strong perspective on the world and pure actions, which is the core of what makes the story interesting, rather than how Paddington changes as a character.
Anyway, there's absolutely no reason I'm bringing this up in the comments section of a video about Zenos.
That reminds me, I should watch Paddington 2.
holy crap. I love this comment so much.
Something of a necro here, but this phenomenon/archetype has a name. I've heard it called a "flat arc." An obvious oxymoron, to be sure, but there are plenty of good examples. Zuldim brought up Goku, and he's another example. Rarely going through meaningful change, but often inspiring change in those he interacts with.
There is so much to love about Zenos and here's a few more things to think about.
Zenos is not a spoiled person- A person having access to more then another person does not make them spoiled. To be spoiled is more of a mental state then a material one. A spoiled person is someone who thinks themselves, in a way, like a Mary Sue. Like the world, in some way, bends around their needs. Like just giving a child Mc Donalds happy meals on every thursday no matter what. Then on the one time you do not, they throw a fit, that child is spoiled even though it's just a Happy Meal. Zenos is more then happy to stand in an imaginary queque that doesn't exist, ie walking away during the moon segment, if something else is more important to the WoL. He is respecting the WoL needs over his own.
Zenos teleporting bodies- I'm honestly not sure how many people missed this, but way back in ARR patch 2.2 about Leviathan. A Sahajin Priest specifically says they have unlocked a higher potential of the Echo. Which allowed him to jump his soul from one body to the next if his body was in danger. How you even teach such a technique in the first place is never explained. But if a Sahajin Priest can do that, there is no reason to assume Zenos couldn't do the same thing.
Personally, I really enjoyed having Zenos around since it was interesting to essentially have an mmo player who doesn't give a shit about the story as an NPC against you. Really loved the fear and hunger video, so curious to see your thoughts on this.
He is a dark version of us, that's why he is so good.
I actually really appreciated Zenos' simplicity while going through Stormblood. It's a bit of a pet peeve of mine how many stories about oppresion and cruelty spend a lot of time on the motivations of the perpetrator, even though their woes come nowhere close to weighing up against the harm they inflict. It doesn't mean those stories aren't worth telling (as Endwalker especially shows), but I'm glad Stormblood kept the focus strictly on the victims.
Though I completely agree that Zenos makes for a weak climax.
Anyway, thanks for helping me sort through some of my own Zenos thoughts. And I fully agree that stories can be good and bad at the same time, and that that's interesting.
You have a beautiful manner of speaking, and I can feel the love and passion you feel for these games. I have never played final fantasy. I probably never will. And yet, here I am, listening to you talk about these characters that I have never met, learning to love them as you do. Thank you.
I'm glad I could share my love of FFXIV with someone who wouldn't otherwise experience it. Thank you for watching!
As a big Zenos fan, I appreciated the perspectives you brought up in the video. Some good and balanced takes! I'd love to see you do one on Minfilia in the future, or really any of the female characters. But Minfilia especially is disregarded by the fandom even though I think she had a lot of good moments.
As far as female characters go, I was thinking Lady Iceheart/Ysayle might be one I'm interested in covering after Emet, especially since I haven't covered Heavensward much at all yet.
Minfilia, and what they did with her in Shadowbringers (and Ryne) would be an interesting one to tackle! Tricky for me since I'm pretty sure she was around back in 1.0, and I first started playing in ARR.
@Zuldim I know she was more of a minor character back then at least, since she was a child who lost her patent.
I already liked zenos before but, I like his backstory alot, would be dope if they retroactively add some hints or something to it.
SO I'm in the "loves Zenos camp" but you forgot the fight with Zenos in 5.2-3? where elidibus is making you fight all of the bosses again to prove a point.
Damn, so it's seven fights then
Your example of the lich king is interesting because in this case the WOL is the Lich King. They have been built up as this nearly unstoppable force. A peerless warrior, a god killer. Then out of nowhere this Garlean prince that we know nothing about beyond “he’s scary” comes and hands the WOL there butt. It felt super cheap. At least in the Lich Kings case Tirion was a legend and had the legendary Ashbringer, and the build up to that moment was amazing.
One a side note: unlike WoW XIV generally does a fantastic job of telling you all the story bits you need in game, there is not a bunch of novels you need to read ect ect to get the full picture. Zenos is a rare exception, that short story at least tells you why finding a powerful opponent is so important to him. Regardless of how shallow that reasoning may be, it’s still there.
Congratulations on your 2 years on RUclips.
I'm a very new viewer/listener to your channel and have only listened to your FFXIV-related topics and absolutely enjoyed listening to them while working. It was very nice to listen to these, in a way, to look back on how well the story was written with these characters/themes for the game, and am looking forward to your future videos.
As a funny side note, I finished listening to your video revolving around Fandaniel as today, you posting this video, and after I refreshed my feed, I saw THIS video pop up on my feed and immediately started listening to this one, lmao.
Great work!
Haha, I love when that happens to me, when I'm bingeing a creator's library or watching an old video by them and they upload something new.
I just found your essays, finished them, and was hoping I’d get to see more soon.
Truly, Hydaelyn has blessed me.
I appreciate your XIV videos as a way to succinctly express some of the thoughts I have about the characters and game that I'd like to speak to my friends about but would be hard to coherently express without hours of going back to things or getting sidetracked hundreds of times.
I liked Zenos since his very first appearance in Stormblood. He felt menacing but human, compared to the primals and dragons we had fought up until then he was a more personal threat. His character and how disassociated from every day life he was until he entered combat and lit up was so intriguing. I feel that XIV as a whole will be weaker without him going forward, he is my favorite character in the game. Also he has the best VA.
Zenos does curb stomp us initially. but with us its not the same as with everyone else. that's why he doesn't kill us but tells us to live and get stronger. He sees someone who can give him the battle- and defeat he wants.
I love Zenos, hands down one of the best villains I've ever experienced. He's a psychologically broken soul with a bloodlust for combat and a sick ass design. His personal connection and parallel to the player, as well as his representation of the themes of the final expansion of the first arc are both so well done.
I think the interesting part is Zenos ISNT broken. He was just never quite whole to begin with
Is he broken though? He’s rather sane in my opinion. All his choices was of his own volition. He just doesn’t fit the common mold like other people usually do. He has different interests and desires. He just had the unfortunate disposition to find joy in a specific thing and that thing alone. Combat. Other people can find entertainment or joy in fighting, but that’s not the only thing in their life that would give them that feeling as an example.
@@acgearsandarms1343 I mean people define broken differently at times. I, personally, consider nihilism or nihilistic people to be broken
@@acgearsandarms1343 it's notable that zenos didn't find joy in combat, he actually hates how boring combat is to him normally. What he's addicted to is the rush of emotions he gets when his life is threatened. Combat means nothing to him if the enemy doesn't have an actual chance of beating him
@@acgearsandarms1343 finally someone acknowledging Zenos's agency in that he made his choices, from each axis of cruelty to act of apathetic mercy, of his own volition
people love to say 'varis didn't love him enough so zenos's murdering and sadness is ENTIRELY Varis's fault' like bruh...
Fantastic Essay. Great breakdown of a super interesting character.
Whenever Zuldim uploads a ffxiv essay it's a good day :) Also yes on emet selch next PLEASE.
Not done watching by a long shot but stopping to commend you on the correct au ra hairstyle
Edit: finished the video, great job! Pretty much all my thoughts about Zenos summed up in there along with a bunch of stuff I never considered
Isn’t it ironic that someone like Zenos has a reason to live and didn’t succumb to despair when so many others did who had arguably more fulfilling lives? He has a reason to continue even if his motive and desire is questionable or unconventional to most people. He didn’t care for nor understood what other people lived for, just couldn’t growing up. Admittedly he wanted to end his own life originally once he felt he had his fulfillment back in the Royal Menagerie. But through circumstances, he still found something past death that gave him a reason to ultimately ended up working in our favor and got him what he wanted. I hate him, but as a person. Not as a character. He fulfilled his role, no more or less and was at least honest about him and somewhat is the player. What does that say that someone like him could live on where others could not?
I love these video essays 🙏🙏 thank you for the hard work
I love these in depth character analysis you do, they’re always so thought out and engaging
Loved the video, great work as always ♥
The only thing I wanna hop in and nitpick is calling the short story a 'retcon'. I feel like that term is overused a lot, at least with my own understanding of it. I always understood retcon to be retroactive rewriting "no no no, THIS is actually what happened" as opposed to just, going in and filling in backstory post-hoc. My understanding based on the video is that this is more of a case of the later, that a story was written in after the fact, but it wasn't overwriting something that was there before, just filling a void.
That being said, everything you said ABOUT how that kind of stuff would have been great to be told in game is totally true, and I'm in no way trying to assert that writers 'had this backstory in mind the whole time' or anything like that. But yeah, as long as pre/backstory isn't contradicting or overwriting already established story, IMO it can't fully qualify as a retcon.
I agree that "retcon" is a term that's definitely been overused, which has kind of warped the meaning to mean "overwriting old storytelling." I think since it is literally an abbreviation of "retroactive continuity," almost any sort of prequel or backstory like this would qualify. But, yeah, this is definitely me using it in a very by the letter and not in the spirit of what "retcon" means to prove a point. I don't actually have a problem with retcons when used well, most of Shadowbringers and Endwalker's best story beats fit the definition much more tightly, but because they rule, people are happy with it.
I do see your point though and don't necessarily disagree that I'm stretching the definition here.
There are few notifications that make me drop whatever I am doing an watch. Your videos are one of them. You have a gift for dissecting characters and explaining their motivations.
Zenos would probably wonder why you’re making this video when you can instead be out killing things.
**SPOILER**
I still remember when he breaks through the wall during the encounter with the end singer. You’re like “is it another monster!? Oh god it’s worse than a monster it’s Zenos!”
Then I laugh when he says, “is that your prey? Why is it still alive?” It’s very telling that, besides himself, he refers to your opponent as “prey.” That word use speaks a lot about his personality and perspective.
When everyone else was scared you would fail, zenos was curious why you hadn't succeeded yet
That's faith right there
'Surely the living embodiment of abject despair and loneliness is no match for you' is a hell of a motivational message.
@@ivybennett2274 Yeah, when he asked that I was thinking, "boy, are you over estimating my abilities." Chick can fly, throw planets, alter reality...all she'd have to do is stand out of range and murder us if Zenos hadn't shown up to give us a ride.
"But why is it still alive? Surely it is no match for you."
At first caught me off guard, like... "You're talking my game up?" But then my brain caught up and I was like. "Oh, yeah... This is Zenos. Of course he's talking up my game here."
I love that line simply because I got the feeling like he was genuinely confused.
Awesome video! I was waiting for this!
good MORNING king my sister and I have woken up and just seen the alert for this video and we're currently shouting about what a good day today is will comment again at the end of the video but I wanted u to know about our nice morning u made! so excited
I only started to like zenos after I fucking killed him so I'm thrilled to see how our journies match up and don't!
This is really nice, thank you for sharing
@@ZuldimYT Thank you for your video!! I enjoyed it very much. You and I had very similar experiences with him, and I appreciated hearing you lay everything out.
Our reads on it differ mostly in two crucial aspects:
1. I absolutely would have skipped his fight the first time, because it's what my WoL would have done
2. I am /really glad/ they didn't give you the option to, BECAUSE I(, world's number one natsuko ishikawa stan) was forced(obliged) to go 'well, this is (WoL)'s story now. Let's make this make sense.' Because I felt my taste-reflexes tested so pleasantly by it, it felt like a fun challenge instead of, in other places and with other storytellers, being really annoyed and aggravated by it. Instead, it made me take my babygirl to more interesting, complicated places! and then the big happy sappy ending felt even more sweet because it was even more earned.
Otherwise yes yes god let this guy stay dead please please please. Very VERY excited about the upcoming Emet-Selch video. He is indeed the best fucking guy
Absolutely beautiful story beautifully presented. While I don't play FFXIV (though I do play WoW), I've loved experiencing its stories through your videos. Excited for whatevers next!
I am honestly amazed how easy this was for me to follow. I never played any of the Final Fantasy games and had very little to no exposure to the lore in it, so I while did wait until I had the time to watch this video in full in one go I very much assumed I'd just be confused for most of it. Instead I just found myself having a lot of fun while learning about an interesting if flawed character in a world I knew nothing about!
Big compliment for how accessible you made this while (judging by the comments) still being good for fans of the game and not boring people knowing the story with long backtracking and explanations. I'm rather mindblown. Definitely going to have to check out your other Final Fantasy videos now!
Thank you! I try to write all of my content to be as accessible as possible to anyone watching, whether they're familiar with the material beforehand or not, so it means a lot to hear that I'm doing a good job at it.
Really interesting video, Ive always liked Zenos but this video essay really puts alot of my feelings into words that I couldnt express myself.
One of my favorite characters is Elidibus, who I feel is extremely complex and fascinating character.
Great video!!! I look forward to the emet video too :)
I'm glad I was recommended this. This was clearly a thought out and well organized deconstruction. I especially loved the opening with the Nicholas Cage stuff! At the end of the day, art and entertainment is different for everyone. What flies for one person isn't always gonna be good for another, and that's ok.
As for me. Is Zenos Good or Bad? To me, he's both. I found the concept of Zenos in Stormblood to be a wonderful change of pace and the final climax in Ala Mhigo to be both brutal and memorable. However, I also found his sudden resurrection to be awkward and forced as it felt like he was now simply there for the sake of being there.
But all in all. Wonderful video my friend! I'll have to listen to more of your work.
I mean, would you count his brief appearance in the Tsukuyomi fight as a zenos fight?
I'm going to be honest with you, the stormblood trials mechanics kind of blur together for me, I forgot he showed up in it.
My own WoL is an interesting case because she started out with no emotions but bloodlust, and even after unlocking her ability to feel other things, it was still her primary emotion and motivation until Shadowbringers. So my WoL got this really neat mix of "finally someone gets me" and "the only person to understand me is a monster, what is wrong with me".
I love Zenos and his simple motivations- which I never saw as being a one-sided character, just a depressed and obsessed person. We really don't need more political and philosophical villians since we have so many, and sometimes it's nice to have someone who's just there to fight. He's my battle buddy! And he throws a neat wrench into Garlemald just by existing, as what he does in his one-minded focus on getting a good fight out of you often runs directly counter to what he should be doing as Viceroy/Crown Prince/Garlean citizen.
About him as Stormblood antagonist, I think he serves nicely to make Stormblood the WoL's story too. As noted, it is an incredibly political expansion, and its main focus is in bringing together many disparate factions for a common goal. I love that about it, and the times when that pays off- the storming of Doma Castle and Ala Mhigo- are some of my favorite moments in the game. The true end boss, for the story of those peoples, is the empire itself, and those are their battles. Stormblood is not an expansion that is really about us. But since we are the main character and all, we need a personal foe. He's the foe who stands specifically in *our* way. And I think having a grand final confrontation that allows us to have our win while keeping it mostly separate from the people's win (even if the world assumes otherwise) is a really smart move for the expansion.
I absolutely agree with how the forced defeats weren't well executed. Felt like "I was doing so well though, why did you make me stop..."
Interestingly I didn't realize that Zenos was talking to the player until I heard everyone talk about it. It just made sense to me that the Warrior, even not my personal one, started as an adventurer with some kind of drive for a fight, or we wouldn't be here.
The simplicity of zenos is in itself a great part of his character. He is above acting, he is above pretending, he is royalty of garlemald(which gives him the luxury to not have to care about anything, but personal fulfillment) and the single strongest non Warrior of Light combattant in the world, no one can criticize him and survive. He very much is likely the most self-conscious or at least self understanding personality, he knows exactly what he (and no one else for him) wants and is bound by nothing else, there is no need for trying to find some deeper meaning or intentions, he tells you them in the face, the first time you meet him. It is pure. It is unapologetic. It is raw. It isn't some world ending threat, it is a personal one. He is the perfect counter to the complete over the top idealistic and abstract threat to existence that the endsinger is.
Between loving his "ending" in stormblood (both his discussion with us, as well as his cinematic "death") and the final fight with him being my favourite part of endwalker. I love zenos and i love that the WoL struggled and collapsed in exhaustion after the fight. Not after fighting great elder wyrms (Nidhogg) or Ancient old ones (ascians/Emet-Selch) or literal deities of light and dark do we crumble, but after finding our mortal equal, the one thing he was looking for himself.
That fight being not a duty is perfect too, as it is a literal one versus one *at the end of the universe* and both know it is the last time they see and fight each other. It is a melancholic fight. It is like saying goodbye to a close friend, except you were never close, nor friends.
It likely comes down to me really enjoying his endings and his general drive being so... relatable i guess. It is the answer to the core question in philosophy "why live?", find something that fulfills you on a personal level, that drives you and follow it.
It isn't to live and work for the dead (emet selch, nidhogg) nor is it meaningless (endsinger), nor is it some grandiose upholding of an ideology of society (galvus, The church in heavensward).
I have totally felt targetted by zenos meta commentary when it happened, as it was in my mind part of the story of my character. It likely is why it feels so personal, he doesn't just see the literal MSQ, he sees how you were pushing yourself in optional side Quests, not for saving others, but to beat a challenge. I kinda missed the wholistic meta commentary on me as the player.
Also, totally agree, for Zenos to be a good character, he needs to stay dead at the end of the universe.
I found your channel through your Fear and Hunger video, and then right after that watched this one. Congrats on 2 years of youtube, I am definitely going to watch more of your past one's and look forward to seeing what you have to say on games in the future. Got yourself a new sub. It's very refreshing to find someone who doesn't just go over the events of a game, but talks about their personal impact on themselves and actually puts more emphasis on the PLAYERS interaction with a game, not just the game itself. Also it helps that you have very good mic quality (trust me, after going through so many fear and hunger videos, because I wanted to know about the game but don't have the time to play something like that over and over, and like... most of them were like listening to mumbled static, this is a giant plus)
Thank you for watching! I'm glad my audio is up to snuff, I try to make sure it's as listenable as possible.
So, Stormblood is less a political theme, and more a theme of empire and resisting empire. Zenos is an example of what happens to soldiers in empire. All the wonders of the world are at the finger tips of the Garleans, but they do not come by them in any way other than combat. For Zenos then, a tool of the empire, the only thing that matters is battle, and the only thing that can ever produce value is battle.
You bring up anime poisoning, but ignore the most crucial anime poison - fighting spirit.
When you first fight Zenos, you are not honed in conviction or goal. You've been dragged into this rebellion through wicked deeds, and your goal is to have everyone survive. You're not engaging in battle for an outcome; you're engaging just to survive the empire. By the end, when you rematch him, you and your friends have a common and attainable goal. You are battling Zenos with a purpose, and he has never battled or encountered anyone else with a goal beyond survival in battle. Everyone in the empire and subjugated by the empire are fighting for survival. Their life is more important than the battle.
Fighting Zenos, you are prepared to sacrifice your life for a cause. Zenos is willing to sacrifice his life for a true battle. You are willing to sacrifice your life for your friends.
This common bridge comes together in Endwalker. He is vaguely redeemed because he battles the Endsinger with you, because he wants to battle you. He is fighting a battle for something more than the battle. He has transcended his simple state by the nature of assisting you in saving all life.
He's a foil for the player, which is why he's so annoying to most people. He's the 1337 PVPer who ganks low levels to get a fight when no one wants one. He's a simple character, but a great embodiment of empire.
Not a FF guy myself but if this essay is anything like your last two videos, it should be interesting!
I try my hardest to make these FF14 videos accessible to people who don't play the game, I think of them like VaatiVidya lore videos since FF14's story is incredible but requires hundreds of hours of playing an MMO to experience, although I'll admit this one in particular might be a little inside baseball.
This was a great video. That, I can't deny.
awesome vid on one of my favourite characters in xiv. looking forward to the next one!
Congratulations on reaching 10K and the second anniversary of the channel.
I actively hope they resurrect Zenos, only because I feel like they missed out on a golden opportunity to turn *him* into an adventuring partner for an expansion, similar to Estinien, who'll get to fight powerful opponents in return for getting to hang around his friends.
Friend not friends. Zeno only has one friend, one person he would ever consider his equal. The WOL.
@@Hadosama But that's the interesting thing! Because once Zeno's has what he wants, it gets an avenue for further working through Zeno's crippling depression
I think zenos is still alive. 10 years from now, I hope he will have gotten the Negan treatment
A few months ago, I stumbled across the Fandaniel video and loved every second of it but somehow fell off and didn't subscribe afterwards. Just got done binging this and the Garlemald video the last couple of days between my day job, freelancing and therapy. Made the commutes and late nights infinitely more bearable. Absolutely love the vids and the way you let certain scenes just play in between commentary instead of only ever describing them is a really nice touch!
I can't believe I never clicked that the moment at 1:01:53 is a callback to elf pope's "what are you!?" horror shot with the WOL.
i think another aspect of the final fight with zenos is that throughout endwalker it's all about discovering meaning through/dispite suffering and dispair, so when zenos aproches you and says the one thing that gives his life meaning is to burn through his life fighting you, to deny him is to deny his life meaning and deny the message of the game.
I personally love Zenos, but he really, really needed the Chronicles of Light story to be *told* to the player. Without it he just falls flat until Endwalker. And don't get me started on the entire dropped plotpoint about Emet-Selch doing *something* to him that gave him the Amaurot dreams. So much, from his strength to his apathy and nihilism, could have been explained and expanded upon with that. Pros and cons of longform, episodic story telling, I suppose.
As for the video, loved it! Zenos is a fascinating character for good and bad, both story-wise and meta, reasons and you did him, and the whole discussion around him, justice!
The thing with Emet-Selch really was distracting when rewatching all of Zenos story at once for this video. My headcanon is that it's just because he's... what, an eighth Ascian/Ancient? But I think it's definitely a dropped story thread.
@Zuldim Maybe? Fandaniel's line about "Emet-Selch found a way?" when Zenos talks about the dreams throws me off, honestly. Cause by Emet-Selch's own admission he's had more than enough children over the millenia, so what makes the Galvus line so special? We don't know if Varis or any others had Amaurot dreams, as far as I know, so that's a dead end. Guess we'll never know.
Even with it he's edgelord bait still
I agree, I wish that short story was conveyed in game, I feel that alone would have changed peoples perception of him.
I think you hit the nail on the head for me about the autonomy in the final fight. Everything else I can enjoy about Zenos' character from a writing perspective, and Endwalker did go a long way to fleshing him out in a way that made him much more interesting than he was in Stormblood.
But to me, the biggest disconnect was the whole 'a mirror darkly' throughline to the WoL. It felt forced. I never once felt Zenos challenged my perceptions of my morality or motives in a way other villains did, such as Emet-Selch.
A big part of that is my own reason I enjoy the game. A big reason I dedicate time to FFXIV over other games - especially MMOs - is that I'm attached to the world. I love the story. I love the characters. Yes, I enjoy the content and combat and raid bosses, but a large part of the reason I play this game over something like, say, WoW, is because I'm genuinely attached to the setting in a way I'm not to other games.
And I think that's where Zenos' motives and speech before the final combat ring hollow to me. It's not that he challenges the idea I enjoy combat more than I admit, it's that he specifically says 'this you do for no other reason.' That's where he loses me. There ARE other reasons. If there weren't, I'd just be playing a game with a story and setting I didn't care about.
I also just think think it contradicts a lot of the themes in the expansion. Venat's whole arc was teaching you to find meaning in a meaningless world. But she did so by the forming of bonds and finding beauty in the world, something Zenos himself admits he can't see or understand. She fought and clearly enjoyed a good fight - as shown by your duel with her - but she didn't do so at the expense of her love for the world. Zenos coming along right at the end after you've saved Meteion with the power of hope and being empowers by your companions, saying 'come on brah I know you just wanna 1v1 mid lane with no distractions' feels contradictory.
I'm sure others feel different, and it was good the designers gave them some impetus to respond. But you're right, not being allowed to walk away from the fight just felt like it was depriving me the chance to show how I really felt about Zenos, not as a character but in terms of me and my character's disposition towards him: apathy. His words wrang hollow. They aren't my views or ideals. I didn't care to placate him. It doesn't help that the other options you can choose before the fight cause him to smugly go 'I don't believe you, you're just in denial, I know you better than you know yourself' and it's like um, don't tell me how I feel fuckboi, you only just discovered the power of mutual cooperation and now you're trying to tell me how I should feel about positive nihilism.
Also completely apropos of anything to do with the story, I feel a big part of the issue is that I feel characters like Zenos just attract the same kind of obnoxious hedonistic nihilists every other edgy nihilistic 'I just want to fight and get strong' character does. No not every Zenos fan is that archetype, but there's enough of the kinds of people who go on that he has a point and that nothing matters so you should pursue the need to meet that singular bliss at all costs - completely missing the point of Alisae's retort - that I feel that's what inflames a lot of the discussions around him.
I cannot speak as someone who has played and loved, liked or hated the game but I can speak as someone who loves stories. I had liked Zenos as a character when you briefly mentioned him/his arc in Fandaniel video. I love characters who show a positive character growth and characters who seem/are one dimensional in a story with complex characters. That's because I know the writers can write a complex character and so, I feel like the character is intentionally one-dimensional. Add to that the fact that Zenos ended up seeing the player character as an actual friend and respecting them enough to aid them in a battle and then _ask_ for a battle instead of demand it made me like his character more. After watching (ehh..listening to) this video, I feel like I am not incorrect in making that assessment.
I realize that my assessment of his character from watching two videos will be quite different from having to deal with his character thoughout playing a game. But I assume, if one ends up liking his character, it would feel more rewarding than me liking him via a small portion in a 3 hour video and then a 1.5 hr video.
It's super interesting to hear the take of someone who has experienced this story vicariously through my videos. I'm glad you were able to watch and enjoy these without having played the game, I try to make them accessible to a wider audience because these stories are so special I believe they deserve to be experienced by people who don't want to or can't spend 300+ hours on an MMO. Of course it'll never be the same as playing the game yourself, and it'll be filtered through my own perspective, but it sounds like it was at least comprehensible, and that makes me feel like I've done my job right. Thank you for taking the time to watch and respond!
@@ZuldimYT You have done a phenomenal job in making the video accessible to a wider audience. Before I found your channel, I never even imagined I'd be following a creator/channel that's not Game Theory who exclusively makes videos on video games, let alone being so excited about watching a video about a game that I didn't know a single thing about before watching your videos. A video about the _characters_ in a game I know nothing about.
Honestly, you are an amazing storyteller and video-essayist and I am excited to know more about this game and its characters solely through you. I can see this game being to your channel what FNAF is to Game Theory for me. That being said however, I am equally excited for any other video you have planned, no matter the subject of the video.
@@Saphia_ It's really awesome and makes me really happy to hear someone say that. Video games, and specifically the unique stories I believe only games can tell are one of my greatest passions, and I'm ecstatic I can share that with someone who wouldn't otherwise get to experience these stories.
“If my Motives met with your approval would you no longer resent the outcome” this line so encapsulates Zenos’s relationship with the player.
Zenos’s first fight i think is what drew me to him and why i think he worked for me. I liked the fact he shows up to show you just how strong he is.
I heard a theory and i think i like it. Zenos functions as a representation of someone who sees a game only as a challenge. As a player who doesnt care about the story but cares about their own power fantasy.
I don't even play FF games, but if Zuldim releases it imma watch it.
i'd never have abandoned my friend after our glorious combat :(
I stumbled on this video much later than you put it out but I offer you my praise in coordinating your thoughts as well as you did in a video about a character and story that are giant and unwieldy. I would be intimidated to start a project like this for many reasons so I am glad i was able to enjoy it from your perspective.
I started playing ffixiv just several months before EW and I had a lot of free time and was able to get through the ENTIRE msq without skipping anything or rushing through and finished ARR through EW almost back to back because I finished SHB just a day before EW launched so it was a completely unbroken playthrough. I am someone who often doesn't get too analytical about stories the first time I experience them. I just ...experience them. Then I go back and rewatch or re-read and develop my ideas more but FFXIV is SOO massive that I am intimidated to go back and redo sections of the story in NG+. I wouldn't really know where to start so I just accept that I will have to squeeze as much enjoyment out of that first time I do something and experience it.
The concept of Zenos speaking to us the players at the end with the "not so different you and I" speech is probably one of the most "literary" things I've seen done in a video game. It's not so 4th wall breaking that it takes me out of the scene but just recognizable enough that I can imagine him speaking to me and trying to get me to question why I play games or really do many many things. FFXIV is a modern masterpiece perhaps because of where we are in the world today. I don't think a story like this would have made much sense 70 years ago or even 30 years ago. We live in a increasingly isolated and paradoxically connected world. We are told to pursue things for the sake of careers and traditions and cultural norms while also being told what we should care about by others. And all of this constructed world probably starts to feel very tired to many of us. Maybe all of us could take a piece of Zenos's interpretation of our WoL as a form of advice and "seek things for their own sake". Ignore the banal nihilism that has infested the world and pursue something we enjoy with such reckless abandon that it gives meaning to our lives.
That is a good lesson or at least some food for thought going forward into modernity. Thanks for the video
Great video can't wait for your next one. I'm surprised at how uncommon ffxiv video essays are considering it's popularity
In 1.0 the final cutscene for the first main story is Gaius appearing as an unstoppable force tanking every single attack of the Scions, being an being that cannot be taken on alone.
They likely tried to recreate this with Zenos but with a different twist.
This was fascinating to listen to. Your voice captures my interest and I am all for it. Even when talking about the character that ruined my enjoyment of the game. Not directly mind you, but due to a woman whom was down bad for Zenos. Still thou you have me hooked and I eagerly await your next video :D
1.1:25:10 haha man that speech of his and my character smirking at him like that when he figured out my dirty secret, that i'm just here for the fun time, i'm just here to fight hard bosses and dominate this world inside and out and be damned the rest of it absolutely sold me, i love him for this and how he's the only character who truly "gets" how i feel about the game. It was so cool seeing the devs (YoshiP) show how they really understand us like that. I really felt very empty knowing he's gone.. but he can't come back. It just won't work
Honestly, this video has made me appreciate Zenos more. I experienced most of his early character... development(?) in the described back-to-back way. I hit max level mid 5.1. So I got the spiel of his death and rebirth in quick succession. I was one of those who initially picked against giving him the rematch, though upon subsequent replays of the story, and reflection on what exactly is being asked of us, I had chosen to give him the acceptance. I am glad however, that so far the only post-6.0 story about Zenos we've gotten is through osmosis by proxy of other characters, though.
Subbed, by the way. Long form content about FFXIV has been sorely missing, if you ask me.
Seriously, I love your work. Your editing and scripting are on point. As someone with ADHD who can't stand the thought of sitting through entire movies, I thoroughly enjoyed this. Rapt, I tell ya.
Got a good lol when it transitioned to the end of the WoL vs Zenos post-Endsinger scene playing A Father's Pride over top at 24:26 during the criticisms. It was great.
I hope the devs watch this and decide to retroactively implement Zenos' backstory into cutscenes in StB. With how much they've listened to fans in the past especially in contrast to most other MMO's, I wouldn't even doubt it at this point. Just a matter of time. They clearly care about their creation.
In regards to the final battle being mandatory. They already had to push back the release date without adding the option to deny the duel. On top of that, I don't recall a single dialogue choice ever having any meaningful narrative impact throughout the entirety of this game.
That's reasonable, I know the dialogue options don't tend to matter. Still, if one were ever going to, this would be it.
@@ZuldimYTI think it would be more likely to happen in corvos
it's so goddamn exhausting to see everyone chain themselves to the meta response in the final dialogue option with Zenos. Whatever the creators intended, this is a role-playing game, and I was playing the role of my warrior of light, who absolutely does not engage in acts of violence except to defend the innocent. they take no pleasure in the death and misery they cause. They have nightmares about having to kill Rhitatyn, a good but misguided man who just happened to be in their way when trying to stop the Ultima weapon. They don't kill for pleasure, they never have and never will. me sitting behind a screen pushing buttons that make a red bar go down does not change this. So to my WoL, Zenos was a sad, pathetic sociopath who could not conceive of the idea that anyone else had motivations and desires any more complex than his own. It make his end incredibly compelling to me, but in a way that was completely at odds with how everyone else seemed to experience it.
I'm one of those people who most likely would have walked away and not fought him if that had been an option. I'm still kind of pissed that the dialogue made it sound like it would be and then they didn't do it. Maybe it's a vain hope that this glimmer of potential empathy might have led him to being a better person, but my WoL felt he'd earned a chance to find a more worthwhile reason to live after helping stop the Endsinger, whatever his personal desires may have been. Though honestly my WoL was tired and just wanted to get back to their friends. In the end I had to settle for 'call it what you want, but I'm not letting you leave this place,' because whatever else Zenos is, he's a serious threat to other people, and despite my WoL's personal desires, ending that threat is still their responsibility.
You've done an excellent job of articulating my thoughts on Zenos and his story as a whole. I hated Zenos through my playthrough. I hated him so much. And somehow, after endwalker, I missed him. I don't know when the shift happened. I don't know if I always loved his character through the hate, but his final words as they happened caught me by surprise. I'll never forget the emotion I felt in that moment; such profound sorrow.
One critique (more of a missed thing): I by no means believe Zenos is portrayed stronger than Nidhogg. Canonically I hope I’m recalling correctly, but Hraesvelgr loaned us his eye so we could compete against Nidhogg after the two Greatwyrms had already fought.
Part of me loves Zenos because he's different from all of the other villains who have complicated motivations for why they're awful and half of them get redeemed at some point.
Zenos is largely uncomplicated. His motivations are simplistic and his wants are easy to explain. He's not some sympathetic character who had a traumatic childhood, or his desire for justice has warped into revenge, or did a lot of bad things, but deep down is good guy. He's just evil, plain and simple and sometimes a little unambiguousness is refreshing in this complicated stories.
Moreover though, he's our dark mirror. Like, we didn't set out to get involved in politics, we just joined the Scions because they were people who were getting shit done and they wanted you to help. Even when we are in involved in politics, we're mainly there as support or there in case the situation goes sideways.
Zenos is you from the other side. He shows up suddenly and without warning and beats down his enemies with unimaginable might because that's what you do. He doesn't have an extended complicated backstory because you don't. He doesn't have complicated motivations because you don't. You just want to protect and help people. Zenos just wants a challenge.
The reason you keep getting stronger each time you fight him is because, that's kind of what you do. You rise to the occasion to defeat the bad guy hurting people. Be it a megalomaniacal military general, or an ancient elder dragon, or a super powered machine from outerspace, or literal gods made manifest you rise to the occasion.
46:00 i never noticed how goofy Alphinaud looks in this scene, it's like he doesn't know what to do so he's just trying to keep himself busy by looking at a random bird on the roof or something. same for Pipin and what's her face but at least she's looking at the screen lol.
Oh man you're right, that's the NPC equivalent of not knowing what to do with your hands in a group photo
Zenos is essentially a Saiyan dropped in Eorzea, specifically Broly.
One side note on Arthas: the Lich King fought at the top of ICC is a weaker version of the Lich King at the beginning of the xpac. During the quest line starting with "exploited weakness." Tirion destroyed Arthas's heart which was implied to have greatly weakened him. He was weakened enough during the fight at the frozen throne that we could defeat him.
A note that I miss in this video, is that the short stories are available online for free as well.
Zenos is a perfect fit for Endwalker due to his mentality. He’s the type of nihilist who recognizes that life has no inherent meaning, but takes the opposite message from it that Hermes did. To Zenos, every action has a meaning because the person making that action chose it, and to him that has value.
This whole video just seems to come at this from the wrong angle to me. Zenos Lives for the moment. The Feeling. The Fight. He does not *WANT* to get stronger, he pursues strength for the fight it will lead to. Hydaelyn represents hope for the future. The eternal struggle forward. The Endsinger despairs at the suffering of the past, rooted in it and doomed to the belief that there is no true way forward.
Zenos represents the exact moment in which you live. not the path behind you, not the next step, but the place where your feet are currently planted. Those singular moments. Gone too soon. And Zenos shows that while he has the right of it in theory, In practice you cannot simply live for now. You will find yourself empty and unfulfilled. And the great tragedy of Zenos is that he simply cannot live any other way.
GOD that endwalker zenos fight gets me hype but to a point that i start crying,
The reason I like Zenos:
He is a perfect foil and opposite for our WoL. We are a character that slowly grows in strength due to the connections we form with the people around us. Zenos is a man born with strength at the top, and is thus alienated from those around him. We fight to protect those around us and as a necessity to keep the world safe. Zenos fights because he WANTS to, because that's all he knows, all that gives him joy and pleasure.
I do not think his simplicity as a character is BAD. I think his simplicity is what makes him INCREDIBLE.
The best villain in this game and one of my favorite characters.
After the amazing conclusion of Stormblood, when my character couldn’t save her friend, she was stuck in some meaningless world that held no stakes for her with that gross piss yellow skybox and the over -the -top “I am charming so people will like me” Remember Me guy.
When we finally got back to Eorzea and got to revisit the conflict with her friend, Square robbed her of her agency and wouldn’t allow her to tell Zenos that she loved him dearly as a friend in spite of his evil ways. A man who was never given a chance to be human from birth, that my character could be anything resembling a friend to him or a person who could make him feel human for a moment, that should have embraced. Not shunned.
I hope we can meet him again
In reference to the "unsure of what changed other than we were lvl 63 and lvl 65" The WoL still fights several hundred foes between each encounter getting more "experience" as a fighter in combat become both more skilled and stronger. I apply this to each expansion as we fight different classes of foes or just a different type of foe that fights a different way.
Well done dude, another excellent essay.
I certainly hated Zenos as a character but I really enjoy how this game tells its stories. It made me want to understand Zenos more and I feel like this video helped me do that. I still don’t love Zenos, but I really appreciate him so much more as a character after watching so thank you!
I don't think they knew what to do with him and the character suffered for it. They dropped the thread they had been dangling since ARR with the "true power of the echo" (merging with primals) and never went anywhere with that. They even dropped the late SHB stuff with him having dreams of the final days. It just never went anywhere.
I think in Stormblood, he has the same problem as Lyse. They are the victim of the expansion having two writers. For Lyse, all of that character development from Doma including the great scene with she and Hien talking in the jail cell vanished into the wind as soon as they returned to the other writer's story section back in Ala Mhigo. Both writers planted seeds but when they chose Ishikawa to handle the 5.x story, they just had nowhere else for her to go. Zenos felt like a similar situation. He felt like someone that at one time they wanted to be the final big bad of the arc but after the Shadowbringers story direction and the ancients making an appearance, he just had nowhere to go.
One major point of conflict for me that interfered with Zenos making an impact for me is the fact when asked "You seek these pursuits purely for the joy of the fight, with the hope to fill the void", I couldn't really answer with a yes. I don't know if it's a matter that I'm lying to myself or something, but it just didnt resonate
Which is why I appreciate video analyses like these because I couldnt quite pull all the threads apart. scenes like the one in Garlemald and his "motivations" were great, but many other details were sort of lost for me.
Endwalker is in this really weird boat where it has such an interesting story to tell, yet it rushes through it so much that a lot felt left behind. But I do appreciate your analysis (and others' as well) for digging into the cracks, cause I dont think I would have dug up all the depth on offer here, even if I don't find myself fully resonating with Zenos's ultimate intentions.
Great video, and after this and the other two FFXIV essays I've decided to subscribe! Partly because Emet-Selch is also *my* favourite character and I can't wait to hear what you say about him. :D
I'm not the kind of person who can easily break down what I liked about this video or any specific point, but I definitely did like it. It was enjoyable hearing you work through thoughts about this character from both angles. :)
Also, missed opportunity when describing the final fight with Zenos at the end of the game to have inserted everyone's favourite sound byte by also describing the fight as "a test of your reflexes!"
Excellent video essay, I thoroughly enjoyed it despite being a certified Zenos hater™️ and I agree with you on most fronts. I greatly enjoy the comparison to community, cause that really does encapsulate the experience of grappling with Zenos.
I made a video essay on my main channel about endwalker as a whole about a year back (it's called Endwalker's Answer and is on the Digital Dream Club) and that meant that I had to take Zeno's incredibly seriously and evaluate his place not only in Endwalker's story but also how he related to and furthered it's themes and ideas as such a central character. It was difficult, kind of like eating vegetables as a kid, but I came to a lot of the same conclusions about how Zenos is done well - in endwalker. I ended up writing pages about his positive place in the narrative despite hating him the whole time, and it really does come out to what you've said here: he can't be defined on binary lines, he's neither good nor bad, it all depends.
In the end I had to swallow that cognitive dissonance, I had to admit and precisely lay out how he worked and worked well in endwalker while also finding him annoying and shallow and maintaining that he was absolutely the wrong Villain for Stormblood that did a lot to weaken the expansion like a faulty central pillar.
Anyway. That's my long-winded way of saying I greatly enjoyed this video and appreciate how well you laid out and dissected Zenos and his position within FFXIV
Second thoughts after my first comment....
I feel like perhaps we would have had less player fatigue with Zenos if we assumed that Zenos was well and truly dead at the end of Stormblood, but with some bizarre teaser, perhaps in the Werlyt Dark dungeon of one of the bosses we encounter being a generic Garlean soldier that for some reason is far more powerful than the trash we fought, and upon defeat, retreats the battle rather than dying.
Then post Shadowbringers, perhaps through an echo flashback or through information relayed to us through Gaius or Estinien, we learn about all that happened to Zenos in the post Stormblood story. And from there we discover that this seemingly unusual boss fight in Wyrlit was actually the Garlean soldier inhabited by Zenos's soul. This could have added more intrigue to the character and had his many, many cutscenes feel less like they're as irrelevant as they seemed at the time.
I started ffxiv when ShB was almost done, I watched the intro cutscene and got so hyped by Zenos in it. And I was so dissapointed by him in stormblood..
I wish we had an option to refuse the final fight in ew. I didn't want to do it after everything we went through. He was the last thing I wanted to interact with
Edit as I'm watching : so basically, we get robbed of the backtory of the main vilain because it's told in a novel we barely have access to? That's wow level of bad decisions
A fantastic video. Am hoping to see that Emet-Selch video one day! 😁
Zenos' backstory and what Estinien does inbetween HW and Stb feel like something that should be in the game
I really couldn't agree with you more about the bit at the end, was it worth it to bring him back in the first place. I remember vividly when i was playing endwalker, ranting to my friend about how much i despised zenos as a character, and the way his writing always felt cheap, coming back from the dead, seemingly able to and unable to do whatever the writers just happened to need to happen at the moment. And yet when i had done that final fight, it all felt worth it. Except it didn't, I remember saying to her that i still don't agree with them bringing him back, but once they did, this was the greatest ending his character could've had, and it felt worthy to me.
I knew I was watching the right video when it opened with a Community reference
I really appreciated your deep dive here. It made me think of a wild discussion happening on another video about Venat. Knowing the direction the world was going to go especially, were her actions truly justified?
I think that morality or critical thought is important to consider when you have Emet and the other Ascians killing millions to enact their plan, or multiple "good guys" like Venat or the Alliance leaders in regards to their more questionable actions.
This video definitely gave me that feeling, but I agree. I hope this is truly the end, and not just for Zenos, but Emet, Hytholadaeus, Lahabrea, Venat, and Elidibus. Leave them behind. Truly.
You did miss a Zenos fight. During patch 5.3 Elidibus in Arbert form makes you fight all your friends and allies you've met up to that point. And makes a copy of Zenos. He then takes it back because he realizes even can't control or predict the copy of Zenos that he made.
Zenos putting the player on blast right at the end hit me like a truck. The use of the word Adventurer was really good. By that point in the story WoL's swimming in titles, Scion, Warrior of Darkness, etc. We haven't been an "adventurer" since the Praetorium really.
Putting the video on 1.25 speed- bless.
I used to do that for my lectures in online classes
Thank you for this exercise! I didn't consider Zenos' words in Endwalker as meta-commentary... That does sort of make him better in my eyes. When I originally played, I was roleplaying as my character so his dialogue mostly just rang frustratingly presumptive. My WoL is an extension of myself, as they are with so many other players, and while I the player might enjoy bigger and better challenges, I the WoL fight for more heroic reasons than that. I altogether see him as an annoyance to be rid of, which has some pretty interesting character parallels but for all the wrong reasons.
I do wish I was given the option not to fight him, because my sense of justice compels me not to indulge him in his contemptible desires and because it would have accurately reflected my perspective that he's not worth my time. But instead I was given a mandatory battle I neither wanted nor particularly cared for.
30:34 Here is an expansion of that idea
At the Invasion of Rhalg Reach
You control Lyse and/or Yshtola Vs Zenos while WoL is kept from reaching by Fordola
Your essays on ffxiv are wonderful. I wish you'd make more.
About the strongest becoming bored : Saitama in One punch man