I loved Zenos from the moment I met him in Stormblood, my absolute favorite archetype of villain Someone that sees something in your character (or the main character if it’s not “yours”) and tries again and again to make something happen, to find the spark once more Seeing Jullus go off on Zenos and then the stone-cold reply of “would you be happier had I a good reason” just made me fall in love with him even more Zenos had the answer, *a* answer, that Hermes was looking for, of all people “Only you can decide how you live your life, the one life you have” That, I can’t deny
One of my favourite things about Zenos is how well he fits into the discussions on the meaning of life that occur in Endwalker. Meteion, and by extension Hermes, believed that there had to be a singular meaning to life. The Meteions travelled to thousands of stars looking for the one, definitive meaning that would give Hermes a reason to continue. Zenos, however, perfectly demonstrates how the meaning of life is a deeply personal thing, and that everyone's interpretation of it will differ. He lives purely in pursuit of a battle so great that it alone justifies his existence, and casts aside everything else to make it happen. Obviously the atrocities Zenos committed and helped commit meant he had to be put down eventually, just for safety. But out of all the people in the game, it could be said that he had the greatest understanding of the meaning of life.
For most of Endwalker my headcanon had it that the WoL is just too busy to give Zenos the time of day. Fanny Dan's plan worked a bit too well, and instead of my attention being on Zenos, it was on Fandaniel because while Zenos could certainly kill lots of people, he wasn't the one driving Fandaniel's plot, creating so-called lunar primals, so on and so forth. In short, Zenos needed to take a number. For part two, Zenos again takes a back seat because The Final Days are a far more pressing threat than whatever Zenos could do by himself. Which brings us to The Final Day. It's only after Goku and Vegeta team up and win that my WoL could look at Zenos and go, "Ok, now I can give you the fight you want." Because she was never snubbing him out of personal pettiness. We were too busy fighting to save another world, or stop Fandaniel, or forestall the actual apocalypse to sit down and have a shonen anime fight with Zenos. Now that the day is saved, the WoL can exhale, smirk, and claim Zenos isn't wrong about her. "Acceptance! At last!"
I pretty much feel the same way! On the Final Day, after everyone was safe and sound, when Zenos called me out as an adventurer for a final duel, I legit grinned. Yes. Zenos is a horrible, no good, unrepentant, unredeemable villain. Yes, he needs to be put down. But EVERYONE would be lying if they said they wouldn't be disappointed if the challenge wasn't there.🤷🏽♀️
I'm right there with you. I wanted the option to say "Look, Zenos. I'll give you your damned fight, I promise. And I'll absolutely give it my all, because you're a monster and must be stopped. But I'm not doing it until AFTER the universe is saved. If you want the fight, HELP ME SAVE MY STAR!"
Your viewpoint is valid. I myself also like a challenge and agree with him, I do not take pleasure in killing things in the game though. I view Zenos as a lonely being whose sole goal in life became an obsession to the point he could focus on nothing else. At the end of it all, his remark about me accepting him or not did not matter as my choice was to simply stop him before he did anything else in the game. I play games to escape reality, but that does not mean I don't want to better things. Zenos was half right. I like a challenge until it starts putting others in danger. Zenos lacks the ability to care for anything other than his endless hunt.
I to hope Zenos stays dead this time. But yeah, in Stromblood he had my attention from the first encounter with him, and his first death was great, cause even back then he was pretty easy to understand, so yeah, Lyse calling him a coward was eye rolling, just one more thing Lyse failed to understand i guess... Zenos was kinda just what ever for a while after that. His little adventure to reclaim his body was just ... there ... to me, and really only his initial annoyance at not being dead like he wanted was amusing. He didn't really start to become interesting again until my favorite duty for 'showing but not telling', "In from the Cold", don't see many villains come at the hero with a 'form of you and i aren't so different, monsters the both of us' in such a tangible, and intense way, and kind makes me wonder if the WoL walked away from that effected at all from being shown, in visceral detail just how ABYSSAL the gap between them and everyone else is. After that I was legit expect things to go as they seemed .... THEN they didn't. Yay for Fandaniel being THAT into his own death and taking everyone with him I guess? But I was, for a long time wonder what they where going to do with Zenos after that. I was EXPECTING him to merge with Zodiark, much like everyone else I assume, so when that didn't happen, and then we didn't really see him for a long while, i wondered why he was even here at all at this point. Then Alisaie snapped at him. Then a few quests later he's back in Ala Mheigo, thinking about what she said, and I was like, 'oooooh ... ok ... your doing a thing here.' and while I can't say i was expecting him to show up and the edge of creation it self, it was over the top and silly in all the best was imo to fight the final boss on the back of a giant dragon, that also want to kill us, but for different reason and is willing to wait till were done here to do it. Then we got to his final speech, and it was just great stuff. It was clear he'd spent a significant time thinking on Alisaie's words, what he wanted, what we wanted, and then he started talking to the player directly, and I was like 'welp, you got me you glorious son of a bitch. let do this' Everything with him after the Endsinger was just SO GOOD for so many reasons that if they brought him back again, i think it would destroy any impact his death at the end of everything had.
It is my hope that when they update the dungeon for the duty finder, they make Zenos a solo instance They seem to want to make every expansions final msq dungeon a dungeon, a solo instance and a trial
@@ArchieGamez yeah, I think so. Zenos posessing an ordinary guy with a katana was able to easily defeat Elidibus possessing Zenos' OP body, so the impression I got from it is that we may have defeated Elidibus without any of his bullshit power ups, but we didn't defeat Zenos At least, not that time. We did that once before and once when he took up a scythe and an avatar (who according to a fan theory might or might not by the thirteenth's shard of the WoL's soul), but not in that instance
Same! And he wasnt even human! When we fought him. We are the WoL who killed ekions left and right, how is Zenos Shinryu any different lmao He made puddy out of us as a mortal with his own strength. It felt like a downgrade turning into a primal when he despises them and became just like ever other human thirsting for power turning to worshiping primals. Weak sauce.
The fight with Zenos was pretty good, but there is one thing that left me kinda disappointed. At the end of Shb, Zenos said ''And you shall come to me, all roiling rage and rancor'' I know there was gonna be a fight, but I expected it to be like a super serious and heated moment and the MSQ portrays it as such building up suspense. But what we got felt more like a friendly competition, yet we fight to the death. The fight should have been more emotional tense where the WoL is super angry and wants nothing but to get rid of Zenos for good and have the WoL seek up Zenos instead of vice versa like what happened. Also maybe the WoL use auracite or something to destroy his resonant soul. But besides all that i'm happy that we got, that we got.
What I really appreciate about Zenos is that he really understood in the end. What Jullus said to him in Garlemald. That by acting directly selfish and counter to everyones benefit nobody would be willing to grant him anything in return, not even the fight he so desperately craved. And he was so right about that. The only reason why it took us so long to get around to fighting Zenos is that we had bigger fish to fry. He had created problems far larger and more deadly on a massive scale than him, that diverted our warriors attention from him, and he got what he wanted after he HELPED. Mind you he did not help out of the goodness of his heart, but because he wanted something, but he understand that in order to get something, sometimes you have to give something first. In my headcannon, my WoL would have told Zenos something along the lines of "You wouldn't have had to wait so long for this if you didn't make such a mess for me to clean up first." before their final confrontation.
Honestly, playing through endwalker and shadowbringers with dark knight made them hit so much harder for me thematically, partly because I picked it up shortly before zenos goes ham in ala mhigo. I do hope zenos stays dead now, but I'd like to imagine that my wol said to him "I do tire of the charade" at that final fight and have fray right at their side for a moment as they say it. I find it interesting to think about what fray might've had to say about the whole thing, but I don't think we'll ever know
I personally view Fray now as a part of my wol darkness that he disciplined and has in controle by now. He call upon him regulary to fight but he dont really have much more to say than my wol
Honestly, Zenos is a type of character that’s been lost in recent times: The “unapologetically evil villain”. A lot of writers say that readers “love complex villains”, and that’s true to some degree. Zenos is the biggest example of a non-complex villain that doesn’t have any complex schemes, is very upfront with what he wants, and flies in the face of the idea of a “complex character”. And we love him for it. We need a couple more characters that we just love to hate like him.
Zenos imo found his answer and even though its twisted I respect that, I see him as a mirror to our WoL, he does what he wants, he had a goal and went through it, he was selfish yes but deep down we all kind of are. I don’t want him back, he had the best ending an amazing villain like him got, he got his fight and we proved to him then and there that we are indeed stronger.
I think the thing I came to realise about Zenos is he is tragically broken. Zenos is a psychopath in the most literal sense; he is incapable of feeling ANY emotion, sans raw survival instinct. Whether this was a result of him being a literal Garlean experiment, his natural aptitude for anything he put his mind to, or he was just mentally ill from birth, the point was he had become a man filled with absolute ennui. That's why he sought strong enemies; because the only time he could feel anything was when his life was threatened. Which was rarely, since few could challenge him. A lot of people say he dies content after his fight in Endwalker, but it never came off that way to me. It actually seemed like he was disappointed, and when he starts going on about how droll he found existence, it's like he was begging the WoL to help. Did you find purpose in life? I don't think Zenos was asking for you. He doesn't care about you past the rare glimpse of feeling you can offer him; no, he was asking for HIMSELF. Help me understand how you find enjoyment in the tedium and trivialities. What meaning is there past this fleeing adrenaline rush? That's why to me I couldn't pick the first option before the final fight. Do I enjoy a challenge and pushing my limits? Sure. But his wording says that you do this for no other reason that the pleasure of overcoming challenge, and I can't honestly answer yes, neither for myself IRL nor my WoL. Seeking emotional highs for their own sake is hedonism, and if you do nothing but indulge in hedonism, you'll both end up disappointed, and end up being a destructive force that cares naught for others, as Zenos did. In the end, my character has other things he strives for, best summed up in the words of another: 'Lands that stretched on forever. Skies one could drown in. The heartbeat of nature, silent yet strong. And amidst it all a people. Beacons of light and life.'
You, sir, are the first person I've seen who manages to see Zenos the same way I do, and the way in which you describe it all is nothing short of absolute perfection.
I can understand where you come from, but I wouldn’t call it hedonism per se. Hedonism implies pleasure at all costs (for instance, Eulmore), but my pleasure in these fights is tempered by morals, something that Zenos lacks. I took pleasure in the fight with Zenos, I seek greater challenges, but I don’t betray the basic morality that brought me to this point. This is why the first option only seemed natural to me. In the end, you have your views, and I have mine.
I have two things to say about this (Edit: Prepare for a long fucking essay. Holy shit, I didn't notice how much I wrote). First of all, psychopaths (Zenos included) do experience emotions in a very similar way, but cannot process empathy nor long lasting feelings. They are unable to understand the reasons as to why care about others and everything represents something that just lives up for the moment, nothing more. Zenos lived that way too and I do think that's bc of the experiments on him, but it doesn't excuse anything though. But, since talking about long lasting feelings, he wasn't looking for that, he wasn't looking for permanent fulfillment and he didn't find it, as he can't actually even comprehend what that concept means. Do you remember the fact that the transporter came out of nowhere by the end? Some theorize that it came because of Zenos' will for you to go on, as a "reward" for being the victor. Sure, the outcome of the fight didn't change, but something did change in both of us. He accepted the fact that sometimes you have to cooperate with others to get what you want and (in case you choose the first option) you accept the fact that not everything you do has to be for the sake of a greater good. EVEN SO, he didn't mention something important: The "not caring about morals and disregarding everything for the sake of your selfish goals" part. Why, one must ask. And the reason is simple. He finally understood that even though people are selfish, we care about our surrondings, have our own codes and abstract concepts can drive our blades to and from a conflict. We aren't mere beasts and we won't forsake what we hold dear for a brief bliss, especially us, the Warrior of Light. That final battle isn't like the one in Stormblood or the one he wanted to have in the moon. He doesn't want to fight a hero, driven by morals. He doesn't want to clash against someone that's holding back for the sake of protecting something. Here, at universe's edge, nothing is at risk of being lost, no one will judge our choices and our lives are the only thing at risk. Here, we can accept his challenge not as a hero, not as a Warrior of Light, but just us, a person that wants to challenge their limits, not held back by any restraints but not sacrificing anyone or anything other than ourselves. And that's all we need. He couldn't have a more pure version of our fighting spirit, a truer blade swung against him, a more unrestrained power to overcome. He finally bonded with someone in a way that he finds right and pure, someone that looked at him by what he is, accepted him and shared his passion. Before, he called us friends, but now, he calls us his mirror. He saw himself on us, he finally could look at himself and say that at the end, he found someone to be truthful to... And be reciprocated. Don't get me wrong, he still is my enemy, he took the lives of loved ones, killed so many innocents and caused the fucking end of the world for the most selfish reasons, but in the end, I have everything to win by winning the one last fight and at the cost of nothing. I'll let the souls of those he killed rest in peace, eliminate one big problem from the face of the world and bring it one step closer to tranquility. On the top of that, I get one last chance to give my all and overcome the impossible. That's why, even though I first doubted it, don't ever regret choosing "That, I cannot deny"
Youre the only person ive ever known to interpret zenos the same way i do. Everyone hates this guy and im like how can you not appreciate what theyre going for! I loved that he considered the WoL a friend too. Because he truly felt the WoL was the only person that could truly understand him.
THANK YOU! Nobody seems to get this with Zenos other than his fans. So many people get annoyed with him or say his is horribly written, when he's probably the most interesting, well written, and most real character I have encountered in game. The most interesting aspect to me is that Zenos himself is essentially the game writers holding a mirror up to our characters and ourselves. Zenos is a flat character arc like the Warrior of Light, only Zenos is a negative one while we are the positive one. It showcases what happens when someone like us comes around and has the worst case senario. ultimately Zenos is essentially the exact same as the warrior of light, its just that our end games are different. We both seek challenge, adventure, but the difference is we like being the hero or savior, and being friendly because it make us truly, "feel real and alive". Where as with Zenos its just the combat itself because of his upbringing and honestly his fate to be like he was. The only reason that the WoL isn't seen as bad even though we are as equally selfish as Zenos is, its just that this selfishness is targeted in a positive manner rather than a negative one. We both kill, we both desire to fight and push our limits. We want those accomplishments for ourselves and no one else, and yet we are still seen as the hero while just because we help and Zenos is the villain just because he doesnt(I'm not saying he isn't inherently bad, the man is a psycho murderer, its just that I want to highlight how if Zenos was in a different position he could have ended up like us and vice versa). What I'm trying to get at is that its ok to not like Zenos as a character (in fact in a lot of ways hes meant to be that way) but for people that say that he's not needed/poorly written, or etc. then frankly those people don't understand how the entire story and world works (even when its literally smacking them in the face and they refuse to see it). To say that Zenos is poorly written and bad is to automatically call yourself the same. Zenos represents the inherent want and desire to cast aside all rules and to live logically and for yourself (which every human has, don't deny it or you're lying to yourself) its just that his methods and actions/ behaviors while doing so is just so evil and wrong that he needs to be stopped. Sorry to gush, if you cant tell he's one of my favorite characters. Also Thank you Synodic Scribe. Love your vids as always, you put so much passion and care into these videos that its palpable in the air, and not to mention you make this world we share online a much more colorful and whimsical place with what you do! It adds so much more you wouldn't believe! Keep up the great work and stay safe my friend :)
I would have to disagree with you on us being a mirror of Zenos. While yes, we too seek out greater challenges, etc., we (as the warrior of light) do not take pleasure in killing or orchestrating the killing of, people who just wanna live their lives.
I can see the doppelganger aspect view you have but you make it sound like your view is the only right view so I'm less incline to go with that opinion
I loved Zenos from the first time we met. Finally someone who beat me, and made me realize im not as strong as I think I am. People hated when the WOL lost to him but I think it was important. We relied on Beyond Mortal Limits too much and forgot we are simply mortal. All those praise went to our head. Zenos was a wake up call that we have to train ourselves to be stronger even without the echo power to back us. Once Zenos got his own he clearly showed he would make the fight even. No hidden tricks no hidden powers. He would fight us on equal playing field. He becomes a god. We gain our god like abilities, he would fight us as a mortal we would fight him as a mortal. He set up the playing field to work out that we would constantly match his strength. But the best take away from all of this is when he possess the WOL body for himself. It ultimately shows how much he is driven to ensure we will HATE, SCORN, and hold him in CONTEMPT. I love that about him. Even when he got his wake up call not from the WOL themself no Alise word struck him so hard he had to go on a soul searching quest to literally sit down an ask...was all this really what i needed to do to get my final fight......or is the WOL too busy with so many things they just cant fight. Ultimately the final brawl with Zenos and the words he says to us resonate hard. For some of you his words come off as bland and boring. But for us who run EX/ SAVAGE/UNREAL/Ultimate levels of fights it true. WE seek a challenge an unending challenge wondering is this the one that's gonna stump me and make me give up? So yes he is a well written character but due to stormblood for some people they hated him i'm just glad he got loved at the end of endwalker.
Killing himself when he was actually happy, and for the first time, was such a goddamned powermove, with a follow-through, I loved it. That he couldn't die must've been such an existential kick in the balls.
I always thought of zenos as just a plot device. Thats what I nicknamed him before endwalker. Endwalker made me really like the character, because he stayed consistant to the point of being respectable. Endwalker not forcing him into the role of main antagonist also helped.
For me, originally, I found Zenos to be extremely.. annoying, to put it lightly. I really did hate the character. But it sadly wasn't because of poor writing, or motivations, or even his actions in the story. None of that bothered me. Heck, Kefka is one of my favorite FF villians, and he's certainly not written as well. No, it was entirely the *Mechanics* of the first fight we have with him, in the Rhalgar's Reach. When he showed up, I was actually surprised and a bit happy that the 'badguys' were coming to deal with us early. It was a nice little twist to the norm. But the fight itself.... I think I spent a good 15-30 minutes (or at least that's what it felt like) fighting him, whittling down his health. And I was quite certain during it that there was simply no way he COULD win. Sure, it's going to be a long fight, but I was a WHM, I can heal, I only got hit by the unavoidable attacks anyway, and I'm USED to doing that sort of fight in other MMOs that let you solo nasty fights if you're good enough and patient enough. I also figured I wouldn't actually "win" in the fight, and that he'd just decide to leave for one reason or another after it was over. None of this was the problem, though, I didn't mind that sort of outcome (or even if I messed up and simply lost, which also wasn't entirely obvious - because I WAS winning - was the fight's intended outcome). It was his eventually just deciding to add what felt like an entirely *RANDOM* "I Win Now" (down for the count, instead of just stun) effect to his Concentravity that was withstood multiple times before with minimal issue. That single attack, that single event, colored my view of Zenos for the rest of the game. 30 minutes, to lose to a Deus Ex Machina moment. I hated him ever since. Couldn't give a flying f* at anything he wanted/did/etc. I nearly dropped the game entirely when they brought him back. It wasn't until the final duel that I came to like the char again, and could look back at everything else without disgust at his mere presence at all. It took that long to actually come to like him as.. anything at all, really. Though I was a tiny big disappointed there wasn't a few other answer type options to give him, because the 3 available didn't really fit at all for me. Now, though, I do kinda like him. I like where they went with him. Except maybe the whole Resonance and Shinryu parts. Really, why DID he want those two things? It's not like we were *allowed* to push him enough to even think he needed more power for a better fight. And turning into a Primal is the single biggest mistake many of the baddies do vs the WoL.. the one person *specialized* in kicking the crap out of primals. But meh. I should note, though, that I have since gone back through StormBlood in NG+, and the first fight with him has change drastically. It's so much better now. The experience I had with it isn't even possible anymore. I've no idea when those changes were made, but they were certainly much needed. Though I do think it could still be a liittttllle better than it is. And I suppose it's pity that the duels with him aren't technically winnable, even if not fully, just so he does have that push to get that little bit more powerful for the next encounter.
My thoughts on Zenos are really conflicted, but, mostly, I just see that rage and loneliness reflected in how I write my WoL; how that void he fills with conflict and bloodshed she also did, at one point, before it steadily became filled with the love of the Scions. She would have wanted to be that person who try to fill his heart with someone other than what he'd seen his whole life and give him a chance to see what else the world could offer, especially now that, after stopping this latest calamity, all that she wanted was to see the world and hear the people's hearts, like the Azems before her. His death left with me an odd sense of mourning that I still can't really place, even if he'd never be satisfied if we did, indeed, walk away.
Yeah… I at first really loved the initial choice and subsequent fight- it felt incredulous that Zenos of all people could finally sort of understand that a challenge and not hatred was an answer. Aiding us as Shinryu and being content to ask for a fight rather than demand it at the end. Something in that moment clicked with me and I actually looked forward to the challenge- As frustrating as In From the Cold was, at its core I could understand he mainly did that due to Amon planting that idea in his head. Not that he wouldn’t try to incite things, or is absolved from it; he certainly did enough murder throughout the story… but he felt pushed into it in a way at least at that moment. Played as much as the WoL was for Amons scheme. But then the fight ended- and it ended on such a somber note from Zenos and with an air of regret- and I was so confused. Why was Endwalker of all expansions about finding meaning in life and moving forward and even finding a new purpose if needed. Somehow it read to me as a challenge and not… well murder about to happen. It felt weirdly tragic even though he had done so many horrible things- because he got what he wanted… but not what he needed. I wish I could reconcile the odd feeling in my own head as to why they did this tone after helping Meteion- heck my character wouldn’t have wanted to die I feel like at that point? There’s the Scions and a whole world waiting for them to come back! Why was it so carefree feeling if it was gonna devolve into that?
Ironically, his instigation of the Final Days (with Most-punchable-face's help) is what made me NOT want to fight him. I pitied him. Every time Zenos showed up to try to challenge, I wanted to walk away. Zenos said it himself (though I can't remember the exact line), how our current (Final Days) quarry kept our bloodlust away from him. I simply had no desire to fight him even with the death of Endsinger. Sure I hated him for doing everything that led up to this juncture, but ultimately, I pitied him. A being so lonely that he went out of his way to make everyone else miserable just to satiate his desire to have an epic fight. When I was given the various response choices during his final challenge, I wanted to walk away; I wanted to provide dissatisfaction. Part of it was pettiness, but the rest was just wanting to disprove that not everyone (especially the WoL) wants that epic fight. But also to disapprove his way of living. If all he wanted was a rivalry that didn't result in him harming others, I will happily be that rival. To encourage others to gain strength and to use that strength to help those weaker than us is a much better outlook on life than the dismal existence he placed himself in.
Zenos was my favorite villain in all of 14, but i think there is a hot chance of him coming back based on one thing - in endwalker MSQ, he takes what Allisae says to him to heart. he takes action, makes decisions, and changes as a person just enough to have affected the story. I think they'll bring him back with him attempting to humanize himself in order to understand how it is we as the WOL can take so much satisfaction in what he consider banal and boring sophistry. he wont be a fight, he'll be this distant watcher figure in the next arc, a reminder of where we came from. I also think he's the reincarnation of bahamut, but that's a bag of worms not really worth looking into in this context.
I too at first didn't know what to make of the fact that they brought him back after what was a pretty good sendoff in Stormblood, but as Endwalker's narrative unfolded I saw why they felt the need to make him a part of the plot. Zenos IS the Endwalker message. A twisted, gone-wrong version of it, but still an embodiment of it nonetheless. In an expansion that is all about finding your spark to keep going in the face of despair, it's obvious the character who is all about desperately obsessing over his single spark HAD to be a part of it. I'm pretty sure most of us denied him when he offered his "friendship" in Stormblood, as there was no real reason to accept the madman other than morbid curiosity from the player's part. But at the end of Endwalker his question changes: It's not about accepting him anymore, it's about accepting what Ishikawa and the writer's team consider to be the nature of the adventurer, and according to them adventures are based on risk, danger and uncertainty, otherwise they're not adventures at all, and it's this thrill that makes so many choose and love this way of life. It's the essence of the adventurer in it's purest form, and the main drive that pushes our characters to start the journey to begin with, before the scions, empire, primals and ascians overtake our initial motivation. The response "That, I cannot deny" not only integrates itself incredibly well with the previous denial in Stormblood ("I rejected you once, but this you're saying now is different... and I cannot deny it even if I wanted to"), but it also brings the adventurer's journey full circle right at the end of the story, back to basics, as a means of closure. And what a better place for our character to remember and reconcile with their initial, simplest and purest of drives than somewhere where inner desires and emotions are powerful and bound to manifest? This is what I think the writers wanted to tell, and I think they did a damn well job with it.
Honestly for me before Endwalker, Zeno's was like a mosquito that just never went away. He was IMO an annoying villain in Stormblood. Shadowbringers kind of gave our WOL a break (thank god) from him. But as the journey moved forward through EW, I noticed slight changes in him after the moon questline. I will however admit that Final Fantasy in general has granted me the ability to see through villains and ask, "why are these characters the way they are?" Zeno's twisted ideals for what a friend truly is, wasn't necessarily his fault imo. He grew up being experimented on; literally a war machine. He sees us as an equal and a challenge so if that makes us his only "friend" so be it. He ended up being a cool character. Was I expecting him of all people to save us/help us tie off this story arc between hydaelyn and zodiark? Absolutely not. But it was freaking awesome! As far as the future goes, we obviously won't have our "friend" pestering us anymore, but I find it interesting enough that we are now traveling with his avatar, Zero. Which idk if she was given that name as a pun because she's from the void or if she was given that name because it is similar to Zeno.
zenos in endwalker feels like he sees right through the wol and speaks directly to the player, while not breaking the fourth wall at all. It was kind of a fascinating feeling for me. ;o
It looks like Zenos will play a part in 6.x storyline, though what kind - it remains to be seen. But BU3 never fails to deliver. Just as a little exercise - can you imagine a scenario where Zenos will find a new meaning in life?
As someone that came in late in ffxiv and then choose not to rush the content diving deep into the lore and doing every major side content like raids or extremes etc and just in the middle of shadowbringers. I can very much appreciate that there was a clear and concise point to which the transition from talking about him in Stromblood to talking about endwalker thank you for that.
I really wanted to fight him with full force in the end. Not out of spite, but out of pity for a man that never felt any joy in his life but once and would even travel to end of the universe just to feel that way again. I know he did horrible things, but rest in peace my sweet prince, you saved us all.
For an explanation as to why he wanted the Resonance: I believe his thought process to getting it was to experience a power he had not felt before. Further pushing that inquiry is the WoL, someone who started as some adventurer and became a god slayer. I wouldn't put it past him that curiosity would lead him to dabble with a power to see it's usefulness, especially a power used by someone who was the only one to put up a fight against him (The Stormblood fights) and the only known difference known about the WoL from the other common folk is the Echo. This is obviously still speculation but I believe it makes the most logical sense.
I sure as hell had no interest in indulging him while the world was literally on fire. There are things far more important to deal with than his desire for the rematch of the century. But in the end, his help in the fight against the Endsinger earned him consideration for this epic rematch. And in the end I did want it too. I mean every adventurer wants to get stronger and test themselves against ever more powerful adversaries. Anyone with the slightest shred of ambition in real life craves the challenges that test their capabilities and push them beyond any preconceived limits. 'Acceptance at last!' indeed. And yes, I hope he stays dead this time. There really is nowhere further this character can go. And our final confrontation with him in Endwalker was so satisfying... beyond anything I can imagine in any future encounters were they to bring him back.
I wanted to fight Zenos because the game kept saying I lost when as a White Mage I was never below half health >:( So I wanted my victory. And maybe being his friend would make him less evil.
I would love to see Zenos be a part of you as like Albert becomes a part of the warrior of light at the end of Shadowbringer. Zenos wanting to see the world through the warrior of light's eyes and see what makes them who they are.
I also adored a challenge, and the 1v1 instance by concept was fantastic. HOWEVER, ever since the battle at Ghimlyt Dark and the events of ShB, that thrill I had of wanting to square up to Zenos one on one washed away over time. I got more and more tired of him as EW went on and by the very end, that fight just wasn't what I wanted anymore. I was legitimately annoyed at him in the final instance. I wish I could've enjoyed that grand rival vs rival moment the dev team intended to set up, but Zenos just wasn't the one I wanted to see by the end of EW
Aside from the fact that I enjoy a decent challenge, there is one other point upon which I agree with Zenos. When the Final Days were ravaging Ilsabard and Garlemald, when he was talking to Jullus. When Zenos stated that the meaning in Jullus' life can only be gleamed by Jullus, and Jullus alone, he hit the nail on the head. From where I stand, nothing in our world has inherent meaning or value. Not objectively, at least. But just because it isn't objectively important, doesn't mean individuals can't place their own subjective value on something. Our lives are our own to define for ourselves, free from the shackles of pre-determined destiny or purpose or what have you. Seeing my own stance mirrored in Zenos - albeit in Zenos' murdersexually twisted way - was rather intriguing, and I can't help but wonder... Had Zenos been given a different upbringing, had different viewpoints reinforced when he was still a young, impressionable boy, what kind of a man might he have become? Would he have become a hero like the WoL? Would he have just elected to be an uncaring hermit? A wandering mercenary seeking the thrill of battle in the jobs he took? I remember someone commenting somewhere he has the potential to be a Sherlock-style genius, so maybe something like that? It's a weird thing to let my mind wander down, and I only just realized I have written two whole paragraphs and some change on this. Imma shaddap now.
Personally (sorry if my english writting is bad) I've been a Dark Knight since Heavensward, it was my dragon slayer designated class. But I've decided to start stormblood as a red mage in homage to those who tried to defend themselve from the garlean invasion, but I've soon been crushed by Zenos at Rhalgr reach. Next up I decided to explore and freed Domas as a traditonal samurai of thoose land but then got stomped once again by him during that event with Yugiri in Yanxia. So once I've finally get to the Loch and getting ready to freed Alamingo, I've said to myself that I've had enough of this nonsense and took on my great sword to slay the shit out of this annoying garlean. Oh what was my surprise when he transformed himself in a great dragon, the one thing I called my DRK specialist at slayin (as well as primals but thats more general wichever my class is). That fight was truly ecstatic in every sense and I could agree with Zenos that I would much enjoy another experience in the like. I later on walked through the whole endwalker expansion as a Paladin willing to give hope and safety to the people. But once the threat lying in ultima thule was no more, and Zenos ask me for a duel, I once more took on my Dark Knight mantle fight him with the whole spectrum of my emotions infused in my blade. All of this to say that I've really enjoyed battling against this character through pretty much all of the story, I've found really compailing.
Man this was a fantastic character analysis. I personally couldnt stand Zenos, though I understand his appeal. I think part of it for me is I was never the raider, the hardcore player. I love casual content, I love crafting and story. So i felt his message just kind of missed the mark for me. Honestly part of me wishes I could have just denied him his fight at the end and walked away like he said we could.
Honestly a great video, I loved his character a lot and it was a shame to see him go in Endwalker. On one hand, you're right, bringing him back AGAIN would be a bit ludicrous, but at the same time, I feel like characters who did far worse were afforded a second chance, i.e Emet Selch, and it would've been interesting to see Zenos get to try and find more strong opponents WHILE getting a taste of what it's like to help people. Especially with what's happened since; Going to the 13th, meeting Zero properly, Fighting Archfiends and Golbez, it could've been really interesting stuff for him to be there for, having to confront what he's done and get to fight new Otherworldly foes together Long story short, I wish there were more nice options towards him in EW, the fact we can't be nice to him when he comes to help us fight the end of the universe but we can be nice to Hades who tried to turn us into a symbol of doom is a bit strange
"Zenos was right about me," you say. "Zenos was wrong about my Warrior of Light," I say. Having heard and watched a LOT of reactions to that final scene, I think responses to it can depend a lot on whether a player views the Warrior of Light as their in-game avatar, or as a character in their own right. I don't think either approach is more valid than the other, but I do think it is one reason (of many) why that scene can land so well for some people, and so badly for others.
Honestly, I'm jealous you got to enjoy it. Because for me, I was so sick and tired of seeing Zenos. To me, he lingered in the game for six years like a long, embarassing fart. I spent all of Endwalker telling him over and over that I was never going to give him what he wanted, I wasn't going to give him that fight he so desperately wanted. I didn't want to reward his bad behavior. So for me, I was furious that even with every single time I told him I refuse to fight him again, that the developers forced the fight on me anyway. To me, the final fight in Endwalker was a massive blot on an otherwise amazing expansion story, and I wish I could have seen it through a perspective more similar to yours.
I always love an intense fight in a game and I really wanted to fight zenos especially after he took my body just for a flex and it was all worth it for that fight at the end of the world. And his end was well done so yeah hopefully that was truly his last breath
Weirdly enough for the entirety of Endwalker when Zenos would show up and challenge me I rolled my eyes a bit, like, I’ve already beaten this guy and he just wouldn’t leave me alone like some kind of stalker. But now after hearing this take on his character and understanding why he did the things he did, I love him for a different reason. In the very first cutscene of ARR my WoL told the twins that he was traveling to find power. And in the final confrontation he told Zenos that he rejected him and would only fight him out of necessity. It really feels like my WoL had developed over the course of the MSQ from a light reflection of Zenos, sealing out power for power’s sake, to rather gain power to protect the world and the people in it. I went from rolling my eyes at the screen, to imagining my WoL rolling his eyes at this madman stalker who just wanted to fight him.
Important to note that from the end of Stormblood to your final encounter, the framing of the question changes. It goes from "you're just like me" to "we have this one thing in common"
Tbh SB Zenos felt like a let down. I have not played EW yet but I was hoping to fight him as a mortal not an Eikon. We killed primals before, he wasnt going to be any different once he turned into one. Although I did enjoyed the theory that those possessed with Echo can by extension control Primals so yeah that's a good concept idea wish it was more expanded on. Maybe it is in EW idk.
I would like Zenos to come back. But not as an antagonist. He started out that way, a pure antagonist, then became a rival antagonist. I would like to see him come back as a rival PROtagonist. An Anti-hero to the WoL hero. Think Vegeta from DBZ. That's ultimately the role I think he was maturing towards, or is perfect for him. It's the role he near enough fulfills at the very very end of Endwalker. It's just a pity it was so short lived. One that's capable of challenging the hero, and has the capacity to get in the way of the hero if the situation suits it. He's not above being selfish or clashing with the hero once again due to his selfish needs. I haven't played since a few months after the release of Endwalker, but since the new expansion is coming up I will be picking it up shortly. If there is new lands to explore, this also means that from Zenos perspective, there is a new potential for a challenge and someone even more powerful than the WoL. So there's easy motivation there. Heck, it could even be the case now, I haven't played the game in so long, so maybe they have that in mind. I'll find out soon enough. But thank you for the short video on Zenos. I'm just browsing YT to jog my memory of all of Endwalker before I pick it up in the next couple of weeks.
I came back to this video after seeing that they are going to put msq quests about the voidsent zenos used when he was a reaper honestly I hope zenos doesn’t come back but imo 7.0 might have something to do with the thirteenth reflection
Ah damn it, I’m still part way through Stormblood thanks to first lack of funds then huge problems getting around a payment bug. But I’m backing on out of here because Zenos and I have had but one meeting thus far.
"Why does he want a photocopy of the echo?" To me it always struck me as he wanted it because you had it. He saw the WoL as a mirror so of course he would want to stand on similar grounds. He would groom you to reach your full potential and he would have the power of the Echo. Then when you finally fight, one on one, you would be on completely equal grounds - two sides of the same coin.
Huh. I just realized that the only way for Zenos to come back in the game and make sense is to have him be reincarnated. What if, like in Dragon Ball, the one villain with the potential to be the most powerful non-protagonist character becomes a character the WoL teaches or even raise so that that person doesn't become evil, even with that insane potential for combat? What if the one soul from the characters we know and love that is washed from its memories' aether(with still lingering feelings for fighting a powerful foe, i'd wager), is born anew in another very powerful body and meets our WoL, it happens to be the guy either everyone hates or don't care about's, who can now turn to a new leaf because of rebirth? It certainly is something I lowkey want in a new expansion. It would explore how a new character would deal with a past the WoL and the player has seen, and it would be even more interesting considering how much development could happen to such a character over time.
Me as a player picked the first option because 1 that's awesome and 2 that echoes my desires as a player. My character however: "You're a danger to the world and I can not forgive the atrocities you have committed. You will atone Zeno's...*draws weapon* "whether you wish it or not"
Harsh as it may sound, Zenos bored me the very first time I met him. And I treated him the same way until the end of Endwalker. To me, he was a spoiled brat, never satisfied of what he had, always wanting more no matter what the cost to people around him. The only time I was glad is when I saw that one of his tantrums made him come to me at the edge of time and space, allowing me to fight Meteion. One drop of good doing amongst an ocean of wicked actions. He never had my attention, no more than a mere bug flying around me, not even in Stormblood. I cared way more about Yotsuyu and Hermes '-'
Agreed. Most of the crimes he committed were murder on people he though could give him even a glimmer of entertainment in a fight. Others did far more fucked up things, whether for selfish pursuit of power for power sake, blinding rage, thick headed stubbornness to the righteousness of their ideals, or what they legitimately believed to be the best course of action for the greater good
I always liked Zeno's, even when there where those who said he was a boring villain. Because he was so consistant. He did not betray out of randomness nor lie out of cowardness. If he was to defeat you, it was by his hand and his power. And when he lost, for the first time in his life, he didn't run. He accepted your victory and refused to let anyone else fell him. Because they didn't stop him. You did. I did think being brought back was a little cheap, but it was interesting me to wonder if his body had never been stolen, would he have never returned? Was it the meddling of Ascians that caused Zeno's to search for a new fight, for he was not allowed to rest in his accepted defeat? Yet his death in Endwalker was beautiful. For he didn't call on you to fight because he was a threat, but because at your heart, the place where this story began, you are an adventurer. And that I could not deny.
I had my own feelings on Zenos. Throughout Endwalker, anytime I got a dialogue prompt, there almost always seemed to be one that indicated that the WoL was just getting so, so tired. That sense of, “I am doing what I do because Someone has to do it. Someone has to be the front line, a champion, a hero. My WoL, Yasha Idunia, isn’t interested in power or victory or fame, she is just doing what needs to be done, and doing it again and again. When Zenos, at the very edge of creation, tried to call me out as someone who enjoys pushing themselves, enjoys “dancing ever closer to the precipice” I had a moment of thinking, “How dare you.” “I have been at the ground zero for so many battles, decided multiple wars, of multiple magnitudes in Multiple Worlds! I have lost more than I ever thought possible, not even having a life of my own because I have to spend every waking moment pulling someone from the fire, ignoring how burned my own hand is. And you DARE think I enjoyed that!?” I did end up choosing “That, I can’t deny,” option, but only because my brother was watching the stream over discord. But as far as I am actually concerned, “Fuck you Zenos. You are incapable of understanding what I feel, or what compels me to act.”
honestly it's a strange feeling to mourn for someone, a character in a story even, that you know is a monster. someone you know is so twisted they'd sacrifice a nation, if not the entire world just to get what they want and that thing they want isn't some grand objective or a cause like has been the case with someone like emet -selch or many of the other people we had to face but was instead the same kind of basic selfish desire to please themselves you might expect from a bandit or a thug, all without being some two bit thug. it's strange but when I think of the send off zenos got in endwalker i can't help but feel kind of sad. I wonder what might have been if circumstances had been different. I wonder if there was ever any hope for a better path for him. even sad that with him dead, well and truly dead this time we won't see more of a character I liked and honestly wasn't tired of yet but it's good for the story that he stays dead. it's good that his death sparks up this strange sadness and I feel a resurrection would only cheapen this feeling. it's also strange to on the one hand feel upset but on the other glad he went out on his own terms.
Tbh, if Zenos wasn't a madman and didn't kill on whims and used his abilities to protect, I would have been proud to even consider Zenos a friend, we are ultimately the same, just 1 crucial difference sets us apart, and when he asked our character (the warrior of light) I responded with the only true answer, the one where he understood me well
Stormblood felt pretty forgettable, but fighting him made an impression. Fighting him the second time when he broke it down and the fact we get to respond to him but also the fact the speech options made sense I actually felt like the words were truly my own. By the end of it, even though he was a monster, I think it's appropriate to say. Zenos, thanks for a fight to remember, friend.
The only thing I appreciate about the final fight was having the option to say "I've had enough of you." For me, Zenos was wrong about my WoL and I saw him as delusionally projecting himself onto my character. I saw his desperation for understanding and friendship, but hell no I wasn't going to indulge this because that's not how you earn my acceptance. What's probably more interesting about Zenos than his character (I confess I am not a big fan of such archetypes) is the fact that his presence helps to characterize your WoL - whether you identify with what he characterizes you as, and whether you see him as a friend.
When I faced of against Zenos for the fist time I thought "this will be easy, I've trounced every enemy in every expansion in the game so far". When Zenos then handed me my arse, I was happily surprised. I laughed, OK, this is gonna be good. Not long ago I absolutely destroyed a dragon of the first brood and here is a man, just a man who makes Nidhogg look like a Moogles plaything and that was before he became powerful.
Bringing Zenos back for a 3rd time would turn him from an epic and rather unique character, into a pest that "needs to be dealt with yet again". So far the writing has not disappointed us, so its pretty safe to say that he's dead for good. As for the reaper avatar, I kinda wish the whispers and theories about it being Azem's shard from the 13th to be true. We met Ardbert who was a hero... and i'd like to see the antithesis of that.
4:45 didn't he need the echo photocopy so he could mantle Shinryu? Otherwise, regardless of how strong he was, he'd get Tempered. Shinryu was made via Primal Summoning the old wrong way, after all.
people forget, FF14 1.0, the Warrior of Light is just a simple adventure, out to seek battles and excitement of adventuring. Zenos was right all along. before we are the savior of worlds, we are just like him. the only difference is that unlike him, we have empathy and compassion. we were truly his mirror. the same but opposite reflection
Part of me is sad to see Zenos go for good, but I understand that it's a good time to put him away. But I wasn't able to give the answer he wanted with my main. Instead, I've had to make A WHOLE 'NOTHER CHARACTER JUST SO I CAN PUSH HER TO ENDWALKER AND GIVE HIM THE ANSWER HE WANTED.
I took him want his copy as an echo as a means to safely fight primals. If the warrior of light could not match him then maybe he could force people to summon gods to fight them. If anything it was just a gateway to other fights. That or he's a furry/scaley and wanted to wear Shinryu as a scale suit? I don't kink shame, I just want to take my axe and split his head open to shut him up. Zenos is a great character for me as a role player. I the player agree with you at the start of the vid, my player down right can't agree with him down right hating him, so glad that the third option was there before that final fight. However if Zenos wanted to get us to all hate him he should have attacked the Rising Stone. I forsaw that as what he would do during the End of Days but no he wandered off after Zodiark's death. I guess I was expecting darker and more selfish actions from him.
If he comes back, the beauty of his death and the debatable wish he made to give you the teleporter would be utterly shattered. The writing team my be very hesitant to kill off characters but let him stay dead
Maybe Zenos will come back only finish his final speech and rejoin with us like Ardbert did in order to see the world through our eyes and to experience future battles even greater than what we shared with him.
While I never really enjoyed Zenos, in SB he served a purpose. He drove the narrative forward. But I firmly believe it was a misstake to bring him back, because after his death at the end of 4.0 and subsequent resurrection, he didn't add anything to the story. The part he played in ShB and EW could have be filled by anyone, puppeted by Fandaniel. This would additionally have allowed Fandaniel to be more than a cackling maniac.This was fanservice, and imo poorly written as well. If it was well done, not only Zenos fans would appreciate it, but also those that didn't care for him would appreciate the story. However, it seems to me that the appreciation of Zenos existance in EW in general and of the end fight in particular seem to hinge on weather the player accepts the premise that Zenos is a mirror to either the WoL or the player themselves. I would however actually look forward to a video on why Zenos is an interesting and well written character that wasn't based in the premise that we all enjoy a good challenge and Zenos is where the WoL would be barring circumstance.
Yee well said. I can totally see Zenos as eye candy sure but I still questioned why he had to comeback to live and scare even an Ascian out of his body. It just made his suicide hold less weight caus show is his soul even alive if he supposedly "died" by his own hands.
The only way I wanted to fight Zenón would have been in a one sided duel where he doesn’t even get to touch me, preferably if it was over in one hit. He was a genocidal maniac who personally killed thousands and directly caused the deaths of probably millions through the Final Days and the civil war in Garlemald. WHY WOULD I EVER GIVE HIM THE CATHARSIS HE WAS LOOKING FOR BY KILLING ALL THOSE PEOPLE?!? But apparently the writing team thought they were writing a the script for Naruto or some shit like that... I HAAAAAAATE IT SO MUCH....
I personally denied Zenos. Sure, challenges are great, but they aren't a goal by themselves, and are only worth it for a good reason, or an "excuse" sa he would dismiss. That's why I interpret his final moment to be a bit empty in contrast to the WoL, lying not far, who still yearned for exploration.
My thoughts and responses: 1. YoshiP and Ishikawa-san have both said that Zenos is definitely dead this time. His legacy may loom in the future via his Reaper Voidsent, but the man himself will not come back. 2. Zenos put me off for the longest time after his ressurection. I agreed that, narratively, he should have stayed gone. 3. In-universe, I think Zenos would have been content to remain dead/dormant had Elidibus not taken his body. It was the body snatching he took offense to and that 'woke him up'. 4. I fell in love with Zenos only at the very end. That someone would believe in me that much? I'm unsure that even our allies believed in us as much as Zenos did. "I thought you would be above something so banal as despair."
zenos is very much a villain for the player, not really the WoL. he's not some big bad threat to the world, he's a fellow player who's way too into pvp and finally found someone who he can't just slap around.
My biggest gripe with the whole final fight against Zenos was that they didn't give a dialogue option that was something halfway between the first and second options, like "I'm going to enjoy kicking your ass you hedonistic sociopathic nimrod", like do I enjoy a good challenge? Yes. Do I need to have some actual harm involved or at stake or at the expense of others for me to actually have it? No. I do like how Zenos is the perfect foil to the WoL though, like a broken mirror, in that he's someone who won't, who can't even hear, think, or feel for others. Like our whole journey has been about empathy and validating the joy & suffering of others and offering them a hand. He was right in that everyone has to search for the answer as to why they exist on their own, but the answers of others mean nothing to him. Which is why I really liked the talking down Alisaie gave him in Garlemard about how not regarding others even in the slightest bit will leave him alone and unfulfilled. And why I really loved the bit at the end where he finally, finally opens up even for the tiniest bit about how he never really understood why other people matter, talks about what really drives him... then asks *us* about how we feel, finally being considerate of someone that isn't him. It's the best kind of end we can get for his character without demeaning all the horrible things he's done, I think. I like to think that the teleporter reaching us was his final wish for us to continue on, as a gift for giving him the time of his life. Such a fascinating bastard of a character.
I dont understand why people hate Zenos storyline. I think he is one of the most well written character. he even have his little character development.
For most of his screen time I wrote him off as a 2D combatsexual. But it wasn't until he responded to other characters demanding an explanation for his actions that I started becoming more charitable with him as a character. I mean, we're talking about a blood soaked maniac here. How do you justify that to anyone except yourself? And what good would it do for anyone? Most would try, but he doesn't even bother. It isn't that he's obsessed with fighting the player character, it's that he's utterly disinterested in everything else.
I did the final fight with Zenos a Dark Knight because I thought it was the final justice he deserved after all the shit he had done. No mixed feelings, no conversation, just me killing him flat out.
Also to add onto your point: The player's annoyance of Zenos' return across all of Shadowbringers & Endwalker were also what Zenos himself felt, no? Annoyance at having to do this all again, but interest in making the best of it regardless?
I don't agree about Zenos' thoughts around his first death. He didn't want to die at his happiest point, he knew full well that he was going to jump to another body. If anything he knew that if he didn't die there, he would probably be executed or imprisoned forever and if that happened, he would never be able to relive the moment so he took an out, planning to go get his body back later but Elidibus stole it before he could.
I did not want to fight Zenos. I just wanted to leave him there to die at the end of the universe. Good riddance. Zenos may be right about why the player behind the WoL fights. Because they're there for the excitement and whatnot. But that is not (necessarily) the character of the WoL. The WoL is a blank slate for us to insert ourselves into. Their character is never really set in stone, because the developer wants you to be able to do perceive your character as you want them to be. So in my imagination, my WoL is a kind soul who only fights because she has to, because her friends and allies rely on her, because she's been given this gift to be able to defend the world. I have never connected with Zenos, I had no bond with Zenos, I had no interest in fighting him whatsoever. Unfortunately, there was no option for me to express that at the end of Endwalker. So I'm forced into killing him as a sort of "he has to die so he can't do more evil" kind of option. So he feels validated and can die in bliss in the end. And while the cutscenes are fun and the fight is mechanically decent, in terms of the story, it just left me empty and it kind of ruined the conclusion of the main arch after the Endsinger battle. Too bad, really.
I felt morally obligated to contact weight watchers on his behalf. At least in stormblood. Dude obviously boredom eats and that armor wasn't hiding any of it.
Am I the only one who sees a bit of Junko Enoshima in Zenos? They're not too different personality wise and I too hope they don't bring him back a 3rd time or they truly will be going the Junko Enoshima route.
Zenos came across to me like someone's edgy OC who is super awesoem at everything. Hell. When you fight him most times, you deplete his HP and the game says he wins anyway.
I loved Zenos from the moment I met him in Stormblood, my absolute favorite archetype of villain
Someone that sees something in your character (or the main character if it’s not “yours”) and tries again and again to make something happen, to find the spark once more
Seeing Jullus go off on Zenos and then the stone-cold reply of “would you be happier had I a good reason” just made me fall in love with him even more
Zenos had the answer, *a* answer, that Hermes was looking for, of all people
“Only you can decide how you live your life, the one life you have”
That, I can’t deny
One of my favourite things about Zenos is how well he fits into the discussions on the meaning of life that occur in Endwalker.
Meteion, and by extension Hermes, believed that there had to be a singular meaning to life. The Meteions travelled to thousands of stars looking for the one, definitive meaning that would give Hermes a reason to continue.
Zenos, however, perfectly demonstrates how the meaning of life is a deeply personal thing, and that everyone's interpretation of it will differ. He lives purely in pursuit of a battle so great that it alone justifies his existence, and casts aside everything else to make it happen.
Obviously the atrocities Zenos committed and helped commit meant he had to be put down eventually, just for safety. But out of all the people in the game, it could be said that he had the greatest understanding of the meaning of life.
For most of Endwalker my headcanon had it that the WoL is just too busy to give Zenos the time of day. Fanny Dan's plan worked a bit too well, and instead of my attention being on Zenos, it was on Fandaniel because while Zenos could certainly kill lots of people, he wasn't the one driving Fandaniel's plot, creating so-called lunar primals, so on and so forth. In short, Zenos needed to take a number. For part two, Zenos again takes a back seat because The Final Days are a far more pressing threat than whatever Zenos could do by himself.
Which brings us to The Final Day. It's only after Goku and Vegeta team up and win that my WoL could look at Zenos and go, "Ok, now I can give you the fight you want." Because she was never snubbing him out of personal pettiness. We were too busy fighting to save another world, or stop Fandaniel, or forestall the actual apocalypse to sit down and have a shonen anime fight with Zenos. Now that the day is saved, the WoL can exhale, smirk, and claim Zenos isn't wrong about her.
"Acceptance! At last!"
I pretty much feel the same way! On the Final Day, after everyone was safe and sound, when Zenos called me out as an adventurer for a final duel, I legit grinned.
Yes. Zenos is a horrible, no good, unrepentant, unredeemable villain. Yes, he needs to be put down.
But EVERYONE would be lying if they said they wouldn't be disappointed if the challenge wasn't there.🤷🏽♀️
I'm right there with you. I wanted the option to say "Look, Zenos. I'll give you your damned fight, I promise. And I'll absolutely give it my all, because you're a monster and must be stopped. But I'm not doing it until AFTER the universe is saved. If you want the fight, HELP ME SAVE MY STAR!"
I yelled at him “I’m busy!” several times throughout Endwalker
Your viewpoint is valid. I myself also like a challenge and agree with him, I do not take pleasure in killing things in the game though. I view Zenos as a lonely being whose sole goal in life became an obsession to the point he could focus on nothing else. At the end of it all, his remark about me accepting him or not did not matter as my choice was to simply stop him before he did anything else in the game. I play games to escape reality, but that does not mean I don't want to better things. Zenos was half right. I like a challenge until it starts putting others in danger. Zenos lacks the ability to care for anything other than his endless hunt.
zenos was one the best rivals i ever had it was truly an honor to be his enemy
His friend....AND his enemy
I to hope Zenos stays dead this time.
But yeah, in Stromblood he had my attention from the first encounter with him, and his first death was great, cause even back then he was pretty easy to understand, so yeah, Lyse calling him a coward was eye rolling, just one more thing Lyse failed to understand i guess...
Zenos was kinda just what ever for a while after that. His little adventure to reclaim his body was just ... there ... to me, and really only his initial annoyance at not being dead like he wanted was amusing. He didn't really start to become interesting again until my favorite duty for 'showing but not telling', "In from the Cold", don't see many villains come at the hero with a 'form of you and i aren't so different, monsters the both of us' in such a tangible, and intense way, and kind makes me wonder if the WoL walked away from that effected at all from being shown, in visceral detail just how ABYSSAL the gap between them and everyone else is.
After that I was legit expect things to go as they seemed .... THEN they didn't. Yay for Fandaniel being THAT into his own death and taking everyone with him I guess? But I was, for a long time wonder what they where going to do with Zenos after that. I was EXPECTING him to merge with Zodiark, much like everyone else I assume, so when that didn't happen, and then we didn't really see him for a long while, i wondered why he was even here at all at this point.
Then Alisaie snapped at him. Then a few quests later he's back in Ala Mheigo, thinking about what she said, and I was like, 'oooooh ... ok ... your doing a thing here.' and while I can't say i was expecting him to show up and the edge of creation it self, it was over the top and silly in all the best was imo to fight the final boss on the back of a giant dragon, that also want to kill us, but for different reason and is willing to wait till were done here to do it.
Then we got to his final speech, and it was just great stuff. It was clear he'd spent a significant time thinking on Alisaie's words, what he wanted, what we wanted, and then he started talking to the player directly, and I was like 'welp, you got me you glorious son of a bitch. let do this' Everything with him after the Endsinger was just SO GOOD for so many reasons that if they brought him back again, i think it would destroy any impact his death at the end of everything had.
My biggest problem with stormblood was how we never go a final 1 on 1 fight with Zenos I'm glad Endwalker fixed that.
It is my hope that when they update the dungeon for the duty finder, they make Zenos a solo instance
They seem to want to make every expansions final msq dungeon a dungeon, a solo instance and a trial
Wait, i thought we did in ending of 4.5 or it doesnt count cause Elidibus?
@@ArchieGamez yeah, I think so. Zenos posessing an ordinary guy with a katana was able to easily defeat Elidibus possessing Zenos' OP body, so the impression I got from it is that we may have defeated Elidibus without any of his bullshit power ups, but we didn't defeat Zenos
At least, not that time. We did that once before and once when he took up a scythe and an avatar (who according to a fan theory might or might not by the thirteenth's shard of the WoL's soul), but not in that instance
Same! And he wasnt even human! When we fought him. We are the WoL who killed ekions left and right, how is Zenos Shinryu any different lmao
He made puddy out of us as a mortal with his own strength. It felt like a downgrade turning into a primal when he despises them and became just like ever other human thirsting for power turning to worshiping primals. Weak sauce.
The fight with Zenos was pretty good, but there is one thing that left me kinda disappointed. At the end of Shb, Zenos said ''And you shall come to me, all roiling rage and rancor'' I know there was gonna be a fight, but I expected it to be like a super serious and heated moment and the MSQ portrays it as such building up suspense. But what we got felt more like a friendly competition, yet we fight to the death. The fight should have been more emotional tense where the WoL is super angry and wants nothing but to get rid of Zenos for good and have the WoL seek up Zenos instead of vice versa like what happened. Also maybe the WoL use auracite or something to destroy his resonant soul. But besides all that i'm happy that we got, that we got.
What I really appreciate about Zenos is that he really understood in the end. What Jullus said to him in Garlemald. That by acting directly selfish and counter to everyones benefit nobody would be willing to grant him anything in return, not even the fight he so desperately craved. And he was so right about that.
The only reason why it took us so long to get around to fighting Zenos is that we had bigger fish to fry. He had created problems far larger and more deadly on a massive scale than him, that diverted our warriors attention from him, and he got what he wanted after he HELPED. Mind you he did not help out of the goodness of his heart, but because he wanted something, but he understand that in order to get something, sometimes you have to give something first.
In my headcannon, my WoL would have told Zenos something along the lines of "You wouldn't have had to wait so long for this if you didn't make such a mess for me to clean up first." before their final confrontation.
Honestly, playing through endwalker and shadowbringers with dark knight made them hit so much harder for me thematically, partly because I picked it up shortly before zenos goes ham in ala mhigo.
I do hope zenos stays dead now, but I'd like to imagine that my wol said to him "I do tire of the charade" at that final fight and have fray right at their side for a moment as they say it. I find it interesting to think about what fray might've had to say about the whole thing, but I don't think we'll ever know
I personally view Fray now as a part of my wol darkness that he disciplined and has in controle by now. He call upon him regulary to fight but he dont really have much more to say than my wol
A few class-specific options would have been an amazing little addition to give it that extra bit of personality for everyone's WoL
Devs confirmed it, Zenos is dead and will stay dead.
Honestly, Zenos is a type of character that’s been lost in recent times:
The “unapologetically evil villain”.
A lot of writers say that readers “love complex villains”, and that’s true to some degree.
Zenos is the biggest example of a non-complex villain that doesn’t have any complex schemes, is very upfront with what he wants, and flies in the face of the idea of a “complex character”. And we love him for it.
We need a couple more characters that we just love to hate like him.
you're right. there's just something so gratifying about a villain that doesnt cares
i mean i'd argue that he is complex. His motives may be simple but his character is a lot more than just simply being evil for the sake of evil
Gods yes I love that he's unapologetic. I dont think hes not complex though, everything that makes him u apologetic adds to his complexity
Zenos imo found his answer and even though its twisted I respect that, I see him as a mirror to our WoL, he does what he wants, he had a goal and went through it, he was selfish yes but deep down we all kind of are.
I don’t want him back, he had the best ending an amazing villain like him got, he got his fight and we proved to him then and there that we are indeed stronger.
I think the thing I came to realise about Zenos is he is tragically broken.
Zenos is a psychopath in the most literal sense; he is incapable of feeling ANY emotion, sans raw survival instinct. Whether this was a result of him being a literal Garlean experiment, his natural aptitude for anything he put his mind to, or he was just mentally ill from birth, the point was he had become a man filled with absolute ennui. That's why he sought strong enemies; because the only time he could feel anything was when his life was threatened. Which was rarely, since few could challenge him.
A lot of people say he dies content after his fight in Endwalker, but it never came off that way to me. It actually seemed like he was disappointed, and when he starts going on about how droll he found existence, it's like he was begging the WoL to help. Did you find purpose in life? I don't think Zenos was asking for you. He doesn't care about you past the rare glimpse of feeling you can offer him; no, he was asking for HIMSELF. Help me understand how you find enjoyment in the tedium and trivialities. What meaning is there past this fleeing adrenaline rush?
That's why to me I couldn't pick the first option before the final fight. Do I enjoy a challenge and pushing my limits? Sure. But his wording says that you do this for no other reason that the pleasure of overcoming challenge, and I can't honestly answer yes, neither for myself IRL nor my WoL. Seeking emotional highs for their own sake is hedonism, and if you do nothing but indulge in hedonism, you'll both end up disappointed, and end up being a destructive force that cares naught for others, as Zenos did. In the end, my character has other things he strives for, best summed up in the words of another:
'Lands that stretched on forever. Skies one could drown in. The heartbeat of nature, silent yet strong. And amidst it all a people. Beacons of light and life.'
I wouldn't say he doesn't feel emotion as he also fully describes depression. WOL actually made him feel something, so he isn't void of emotion.
You, sir, are the first person I've seen who manages to see Zenos the same way I do, and the way in which you describe it all is nothing short of absolute perfection.
I can understand where you come from, but I wouldn’t call it hedonism per se. Hedonism implies pleasure at all costs (for instance, Eulmore), but my pleasure in these fights is tempered by morals, something that Zenos lacks. I took pleasure in the fight with Zenos, I seek greater challenges, but I don’t betray the basic morality that brought me to this point. This is why the first option only seemed natural to me.
In the end, you have your views, and I have mine.
I have two things to say about this (Edit: Prepare for a long fucking essay. Holy shit, I didn't notice how much I wrote). First of all, psychopaths (Zenos included) do experience emotions in a very similar way, but cannot process empathy nor long lasting feelings. They are unable to understand the reasons as to why care about others and everything represents something that just lives up for the moment, nothing more.
Zenos lived that way too and I do think that's bc of the experiments on him, but it doesn't excuse anything though.
But, since talking about long lasting feelings, he wasn't looking for that, he wasn't looking for permanent fulfillment and he didn't find it, as he can't actually even comprehend what that concept means.
Do you remember the fact that the transporter came out of nowhere by the end? Some theorize that it came because of Zenos' will for you to go on, as a "reward" for being the victor. Sure, the outcome of the fight didn't change, but something did change in both of us. He accepted the fact that sometimes you have to cooperate with others to get what you want and (in case you choose the first option) you accept the fact that not everything you do has to be for the sake of a greater good. EVEN SO, he didn't mention something important: The "not caring about morals and disregarding everything for the sake of your selfish goals" part. Why, one must ask. And the reason is simple. He finally understood that even though people are selfish, we care about our surrondings, have our own codes and abstract concepts can drive our blades to and from a conflict. We aren't mere beasts and we won't forsake what we hold dear for a brief bliss, especially us, the Warrior of Light.
That final battle isn't like the one in Stormblood or the one he wanted to have in the moon. He doesn't want to fight a hero, driven by morals. He doesn't want to clash against someone that's holding back for the sake of protecting something. Here, at universe's edge, nothing is at risk of being lost, no one will judge our choices and our lives are the only thing at risk. Here, we can accept his challenge not as a hero, not as a Warrior of Light, but just us, a person that wants to challenge their limits, not held back by any restraints but not sacrificing anyone or anything other than ourselves. And that's all we need.
He couldn't have a more pure version of our fighting spirit, a truer blade swung against him, a more unrestrained power to overcome. He finally bonded with someone in a way that he finds right and pure, someone that looked at him by what he is, accepted him and shared his passion. Before, he called us friends, but now, he calls us his mirror. He saw himself on us, he finally could look at himself and say that at the end, he found someone to be truthful to... And be reciprocated.
Don't get me wrong, he still is my enemy, he took the lives of loved ones, killed so many innocents and caused the fucking end of the world for the most selfish reasons, but in the end, I have everything to win by winning the one last fight and at the cost of nothing. I'll let the souls of those he killed rest in peace, eliminate one big problem from the face of the world and bring it one step closer to tranquility. On the top of that, I get one last chance to give my all and overcome the impossible.
That's why, even though I first doubted it, don't ever regret choosing "That, I cannot deny"
Yep, I answered differently as well for your exact reasons.
Youre the only person ive ever known to interpret zenos the same way i do. Everyone hates this guy and im like how can you not appreciate what theyre going for!
I loved that he considered the WoL a friend too. Because he truly felt the WoL was the only person that could truly understand him.
THANK YOU! Nobody seems to get this with Zenos other than his fans. So many people get annoyed with him or say his is horribly written, when he's probably the most interesting, well written, and most real character I have encountered in game. The most interesting aspect to me is that Zenos himself is essentially the game writers holding a mirror up to our characters and ourselves. Zenos is a flat character arc like the Warrior of Light, only Zenos is a negative one while we are the positive one. It showcases what happens when someone like us comes around and has the worst case senario. ultimately Zenos is essentially the exact same as the warrior of light, its just that our end games are different. We both seek challenge, adventure, but the difference is we like being the hero or savior, and being friendly because it make us truly, "feel real and alive". Where as with Zenos its just the combat itself because of his upbringing and honestly his fate to be like he was. The only reason that the WoL isn't seen as bad even though we are as equally selfish as Zenos is, its just that this selfishness is targeted in a positive manner rather than a negative one. We both kill, we both desire to fight and push our limits. We want those accomplishments for ourselves and no one else, and yet we are still seen as the hero while just because we help and Zenos is the villain just because he doesnt(I'm not saying he isn't inherently bad, the man is a psycho murderer, its just that I want to highlight how if Zenos was in a different position he could have ended up like us and vice versa). What I'm trying to get at is that its ok to not like Zenos as a character (in fact in a lot of ways hes meant to be that way) but for people that say that he's not needed/poorly written, or etc. then frankly those people don't understand how the entire story and world works (even when its literally smacking them in the face and they refuse to see it). To say that Zenos is poorly written and bad is to automatically call yourself the same. Zenos represents the inherent want and desire to cast aside all rules and to live logically and for yourself (which every human has, don't deny it or you're lying to yourself) its just that his methods and actions/ behaviors while doing so is just so evil and wrong that he needs to be stopped. Sorry to gush, if you cant tell he's one of my favorite characters. Also Thank you Synodic Scribe. Love your vids as always, you put so much passion and care into these videos that its palpable in the air, and not to mention you make this world we share online a much more colorful and whimsical place with what you do! It adds so much more you wouldn't believe! Keep up the great work and stay safe my friend :)
I would have to disagree with you on us being a mirror of Zenos. While yes, we too seek out greater challenges, etc., we (as the warrior of light) do not take pleasure in killing or orchestrating the killing of, people who just wanna live their lives.
@@writershard5065 That's precisely what makes him a mirror: Same in some ways, yet also the exact opposite at the same time.
I can see the doppelganger aspect view you have but you make it sound like your view is the only right view so I'm less incline to go with that opinion
@@writershard5065 I guess the WoL doesn't count beastmen because canonically he/she is happy doing that for a sport.
'would it be better if I had a reason?'
I'm not the biggest Zenos fan, but that was a 10/10 conversation. Also, it's "if I had a GOOD reason?"
@@justinbowman1342 thank you for the correction
I loved Zenos from the first time we met. Finally someone who beat me, and made me realize im not as strong as I think I am. People hated when the WOL lost to him but I think it was important. We relied on Beyond Mortal Limits too much and forgot we are simply mortal. All those praise went to our head. Zenos was a wake up call that we have to train ourselves to be stronger even without the echo power to back us. Once Zenos got his own he clearly showed he would make the fight even. No hidden tricks no hidden powers. He would fight us on equal playing field. He becomes a god. We gain our god like abilities, he would fight us as a mortal we would fight him as a mortal. He set up the playing field to work out that we would constantly match his strength. But the best take away from all of this is when he possess the WOL body for himself. It ultimately shows how much he is driven to ensure we will HATE, SCORN, and hold him in CONTEMPT. I love that about him. Even when he got his wake up call not from the WOL themself no Alise word struck him so hard he had to go on a soul searching quest to literally sit down an ask...was all this really what i needed to do to get my final fight......or is the WOL too busy with so many things they just cant fight. Ultimately the final brawl with Zenos and the words he says to us resonate hard. For some of you his words come off as bland and boring. But for us who run EX/ SAVAGE/UNREAL/Ultimate levels of fights it true. WE seek a challenge an unending challenge wondering is this the one that's gonna stump me and make me give up? So yes he is a well written character but due to stormblood for some people they hated him i'm just glad he got loved at the end of endwalker.
Killing himself when he was actually happy, and for the first time, was such a goddamned powermove, with a follow-through, I loved it. That he couldn't die must've been such an existential kick in the balls.
I always thought of zenos as just a plot device. Thats what I nicknamed him before endwalker. Endwalker made me really like the character, because he stayed consistant to the point of being respectable.
Endwalker not forcing him into the role of main antagonist also helped.
That's exactly what he was.
For me, originally, I found Zenos to be extremely.. annoying, to put it lightly. I really did hate the character. But it sadly wasn't because of poor writing, or motivations, or even his actions in the story. None of that bothered me. Heck, Kefka is one of my favorite FF villians, and he's certainly not written as well. No, it was entirely the *Mechanics* of the first fight we have with him, in the Rhalgar's Reach. When he showed up, I was actually surprised and a bit happy that the 'badguys' were coming to deal with us early. It was a nice little twist to the norm. But the fight itself....
I think I spent a good 15-30 minutes (or at least that's what it felt like) fighting him, whittling down his health. And I was quite certain during it that there was simply no way he COULD win. Sure, it's going to be a long fight, but I was a WHM, I can heal, I only got hit by the unavoidable attacks anyway, and I'm USED to doing that sort of fight in other MMOs that let you solo nasty fights if you're good enough and patient enough. I also figured I wouldn't actually "win" in the fight, and that he'd just decide to leave for one reason or another after it was over.
None of this was the problem, though, I didn't mind that sort of outcome (or even if I messed up and simply lost, which also wasn't entirely obvious - because I WAS winning - was the fight's intended outcome). It was his eventually just deciding to add what felt like an entirely *RANDOM* "I Win Now" (down for the count, instead of just stun) effect to his Concentravity that was withstood multiple times before with minimal issue. That single attack, that single event, colored my view of Zenos for the rest of the game. 30 minutes, to lose to a Deus Ex Machina moment. I hated him ever since. Couldn't give a flying f* at anything he wanted/did/etc. I nearly dropped the game entirely when they brought him back.
It wasn't until the final duel that I came to like the char again, and could look back at everything else without disgust at his mere presence at all. It took that long to actually come to like him as.. anything at all, really. Though I was a tiny big disappointed there wasn't a few other answer type options to give him, because the 3 available didn't really fit at all for me. Now, though, I do kinda like him. I like where they went with him. Except maybe the whole Resonance and Shinryu parts. Really, why DID he want those two things? It's not like we were *allowed* to push him enough to even think he needed more power for a better fight. And turning into a Primal is the single biggest mistake many of the baddies do vs the WoL.. the one person *specialized* in kicking the crap out of primals. But meh.
I should note, though, that I have since gone back through StormBlood in NG+, and the first fight with him has change drastically. It's so much better now. The experience I had with it isn't even possible anymore. I've no idea when those changes were made, but they were certainly much needed. Though I do think it could still be a liittttllle better than it is. And I suppose it's pity that the duels with him aren't technically winnable, even if not fully, just so he does have that push to get that little bit more powerful for the next encounter.
My thoughts on Zenos are really conflicted, but, mostly, I just see that rage and loneliness reflected in how I write my WoL; how that void he fills with conflict and bloodshed she also did, at one point, before it steadily became filled with the love of the Scions. She would have wanted to be that person who try to fill his heart with someone other than what he'd seen his whole life and give him a chance to see what else the world could offer, especially now that, after stopping this latest calamity, all that she wanted was to see the world and hear the people's hearts, like the Azems before her. His death left with me an odd sense of mourning that I still can't really place, even if he'd never be satisfied if we did, indeed, walk away.
Yeah… I at first really loved the initial choice and subsequent fight- it felt incredulous that Zenos of all people could finally sort of understand that a challenge and not hatred was an answer. Aiding us as Shinryu and being content to ask for a fight rather than demand it at the end. Something in that moment clicked with me and I actually looked forward to the challenge-
As frustrating as In From the Cold was, at its core I could understand he mainly did that due to Amon planting that idea in his head. Not that he wouldn’t try to incite things, or is absolved from it; he certainly did enough murder throughout the story… but he felt pushed into it in a way at least at that moment. Played as much as the WoL was for Amons scheme.
But then the fight ended- and it ended on such a somber note from Zenos and with an air of regret- and I was so confused. Why was Endwalker of all expansions about finding meaning in life and moving forward and even finding a new purpose if needed. Somehow it read to me as a challenge and not… well murder about to happen. It felt weirdly tragic even though he had done so many horrible things- because he got what he wanted… but not what he needed.
I wish I could reconcile the odd feeling in my own head as to why they did this tone after helping Meteion- heck my character wouldn’t have wanted to die I feel like at that point? There’s the Scions and a whole world waiting for them to come back! Why was it so carefree feeling if it was gonna devolve into that?
Ironically, his instigation of the Final Days (with Most-punchable-face's help) is what made me NOT want to fight him. I pitied him. Every time Zenos showed up to try to challenge, I wanted to walk away. Zenos said it himself (though I can't remember the exact line), how our current (Final Days) quarry kept our bloodlust away from him. I simply had no desire to fight him even with the death of Endsinger. Sure I hated him for doing everything that led up to this juncture, but ultimately, I pitied him. A being so lonely that he went out of his way to make everyone else miserable just to satiate his desire to have an epic fight. When I was given the various response choices during his final challenge, I wanted to walk away; I wanted to provide dissatisfaction. Part of it was pettiness, but the rest was just wanting to disprove that not everyone (especially the WoL) wants that epic fight. But also to disapprove his way of living. If all he wanted was a rivalry that didn't result in him harming others, I will happily be that rival. To encourage others to gain strength and to use that strength to help those weaker than us is a much better outlook on life than the dismal existence he placed himself in.
Zenos was my favorite villain in all of 14, but i think there is a hot chance of him coming back based on one thing - in endwalker MSQ, he takes what Allisae says to him to heart. he takes action, makes decisions, and changes as a person just enough to have affected the story. I think they'll bring him back with him attempting to humanize himself in order to understand how it is we as the WOL can take so much satisfaction in what he consider banal and boring sophistry. he wont be a fight, he'll be this distant watcher figure in the next arc, a reminder of where we came from. I also think he's the reincarnation of bahamut, but that's a bag of worms not really worth looking into in this context.
I too at first didn't know what to make of the fact that they brought him back after what was a pretty good sendoff in Stormblood, but as Endwalker's narrative unfolded I saw why they felt the need to make him a part of the plot. Zenos IS the Endwalker message. A twisted, gone-wrong version of it, but still an embodiment of it nonetheless. In an expansion that is all about finding your spark to keep going in the face of despair, it's obvious the character who is all about desperately obsessing over his single spark HAD to be a part of it.
I'm pretty sure most of us denied him when he offered his "friendship" in Stormblood, as there was no real reason to accept the madman other than morbid curiosity from the player's part. But at the end of Endwalker his question changes: It's not about accepting him anymore, it's about accepting what Ishikawa and the writer's team consider to be the nature of the adventurer, and according to them adventures are based on risk, danger and uncertainty, otherwise they're not adventures at all, and it's this thrill that makes so many choose and love this way of life. It's the essence of the adventurer in it's purest form, and the main drive that pushes our characters to start the journey to begin with, before the scions, empire, primals and ascians overtake our initial motivation. The response "That, I cannot deny" not only integrates itself incredibly well with the previous denial in Stormblood ("I rejected you once, but this you're saying now is different... and I cannot deny it even if I wanted to"), but it also brings the adventurer's journey full circle right at the end of the story, back to basics, as a means of closure. And what a better place for our character to remember and reconcile with their initial, simplest and purest of drives than somewhere where inner desires and emotions are powerful and bound to manifest?
This is what I think the writers wanted to tell, and I think they did a damn well job with it.
Finally, someone who appreciates Zenos as much as I do.
Lucretia (my main) at that point was fed up of Zenos, it wasn't so much that she wanted to fight him, it was more like she had had enough of him.
Living this story through the eyes of my dark knight character was glorious. Zenos is such a great villain.
Honestly for me before Endwalker, Zeno's was like a mosquito that just never went away. He was IMO an annoying villain in Stormblood. Shadowbringers kind of gave our WOL a break (thank god) from him. But as the journey moved forward through EW, I noticed slight changes in him after the moon questline. I will however admit that Final Fantasy in general has granted me the ability to see through villains and ask, "why are these characters the way they are?" Zeno's twisted ideals for what a friend truly is, wasn't necessarily his fault imo. He grew up being experimented on; literally a war machine. He sees us as an equal and a challenge so if that makes us his only "friend" so be it. He ended up being a cool character. Was I expecting him of all people to save us/help us tie off this story arc between hydaelyn and zodiark? Absolutely not. But it was freaking awesome! As far as the future goes, we obviously won't have our "friend" pestering us anymore, but I find it interesting enough that we are now traveling with his avatar, Zero. Which idk if she was given that name as a pun because she's from the void or if she was given that name because it is similar to Zeno.
zenos in endwalker feels like he sees right through the wol and speaks directly to the player, while not breaking the fourth wall at all. It was kind of a fascinating feeling for me. ;o
It looks like Zenos will play a part in 6.x storyline, though what kind - it remains to be seen. But BU3 never fails to deliver.
Just as a little exercise - can you imagine a scenario where Zenos will find a new meaning in life?
As someone that came in late in ffxiv and then choose not to rush the content diving deep into the lore and doing every major side content like raids or extremes etc and just in the middle of shadowbringers.
I can very much appreciate that there was a clear and concise point to which the transition from talking about him in Stromblood to talking about endwalker thank you for that.
Oh gosh. Zenos's entire thing post-Stormbringers is just one giant "NOTICE ME SEMPAI!"
I really wanted to fight him with full force in the end. Not out of spite, but out of pity for a man that never felt any joy in his life but once and would even travel to end of the universe just to feel that way again. I know he did horrible things, but rest in peace my sweet prince, you saved us all.
For an explanation as to why he wanted the Resonance: I believe his thought process to getting it was to experience a power he had not felt before. Further pushing that inquiry is the WoL, someone who started as some adventurer and became a god slayer. I wouldn't put it past him that curiosity would lead him to dabble with a power to see it's usefulness, especially a power used by someone who was the only one to put up a fight against him (The Stormblood fights) and the only known difference known about the WoL from the other common folk is the Echo. This is obviously still speculation but I believe it makes the most logical sense.
I sure as hell had no interest in indulging him while the world was literally on fire. There are things far more important to deal with than his desire for the rematch of the century.
But in the end, his help in the fight against the Endsinger earned him consideration for this epic rematch.
And in the end I did want it too. I mean every adventurer wants to get stronger and test themselves against ever more powerful adversaries. Anyone with the slightest shred of ambition in real life craves the challenges that test their capabilities and push them beyond any preconceived limits. 'Acceptance at last!' indeed.
And yes, I hope he stays dead this time. There really is nowhere further this character can go. And our final confrontation with him in Endwalker was so satisfying... beyond anything I can imagine in any future encounters were they to bring him back.
I wanted to fight Zenos because the game kept saying I lost when as a White Mage I was never below half health >:( So I wanted my victory.
And maybe being his friend would make him less evil.
I would love to see Zenos be a part of you as like Albert becomes a part of the warrior of light at the end of Shadowbringer.
Zenos wanting to see the world through the warrior of light's eyes and see what makes them who they are.
I also adored a challenge, and the 1v1 instance by concept was fantastic. HOWEVER, ever since the battle at Ghimlyt Dark and the events of ShB, that thrill I had of wanting to square up to Zenos one on one washed away over time.
I got more and more tired of him as EW went on and by the very end, that fight just wasn't what I wanted anymore. I was legitimately annoyed at him in the final instance. I wish I could've enjoyed that grand rival vs rival moment the dev team intended to set up, but Zenos just wasn't the one I wanted to see by the end of EW
Aside from the fact that I enjoy a decent challenge, there is one other point upon which I agree with Zenos.
When the Final Days were ravaging Ilsabard and Garlemald, when he was talking to Jullus. When Zenos stated that the meaning in Jullus' life can only be gleamed by Jullus, and Jullus alone, he hit the nail on the head. From where I stand, nothing in our world has inherent meaning or value. Not objectively, at least. But just because it isn't objectively important, doesn't mean individuals can't place their own subjective value on something. Our lives are our own to define for ourselves, free from the shackles of pre-determined destiny or purpose or what have you.
Seeing my own stance mirrored in Zenos - albeit in Zenos' murdersexually twisted way - was rather intriguing, and I can't help but wonder... Had Zenos been given a different upbringing, had different viewpoints reinforced when he was still a young, impressionable boy, what kind of a man might he have become? Would he have become a hero like the WoL? Would he have just elected to be an uncaring hermit? A wandering mercenary seeking the thrill of battle in the jobs he took? I remember someone commenting somewhere he has the potential to be a Sherlock-style genius, so maybe something like that?
It's a weird thing to let my mind wander down, and I only just realized I have written two whole paragraphs and some change on this. Imma shaddap now.
Yeah I think Lyse talked about how Zenos too once was a baby innocent before he turned into a monster in SB
A TEST OF YOUR REFLEXES
Personally
(sorry if my english writting is bad) I've been a Dark Knight since Heavensward, it was my dragon slayer designated class. But I've decided to start stormblood as a red mage in homage to those who tried to defend themselve from the garlean invasion,
but I've soon been crushed by Zenos at Rhalgr reach.
Next up I decided to explore and freed Domas as a traditonal samurai of thoose land but then got stomped once again by him during that event with Yugiri in Yanxia.
So once I've finally get to the Loch and getting ready to freed Alamingo, I've said to myself that I've had enough of this nonsense and took on my great sword to slay the shit out of this annoying garlean. Oh what was my surprise when he transformed himself in a great dragon, the one thing I called my DRK specialist at slayin (as well as primals but thats more general wichever my class is).
That fight was truly ecstatic in every sense and I could agree with Zenos that I would much enjoy another experience in the like.
I later on walked through the whole endwalker expansion as a Paladin willing to give hope and safety to the people. But once the threat lying in ultima thule was no more, and Zenos ask me for a duel, I once more took on my Dark Knight mantle fight him with the whole spectrum of my emotions infused in my blade.
All of this to say that I've really enjoyed battling against this character through pretty much all of the story, I've found really compailing.
Man this was a fantastic character analysis. I personally couldnt stand Zenos, though I understand his appeal. I think part of it for me is I was never the raider, the hardcore player. I love casual content, I love crafting and story. So i felt his message just kind of missed the mark for me. Honestly part of me wishes I could have just denied him his fight at the end and walked away like he said we could.
Or at the very least make him pay for our sub that month if we have to.
Honestly a great video, I loved his character a lot and it was a shame to see him go in Endwalker. On one hand, you're right, bringing him back AGAIN would be a bit ludicrous, but at the same time, I feel like characters who did far worse were afforded a second chance, i.e Emet Selch, and it would've been interesting to see Zenos get to try and find more strong opponents WHILE getting a taste of what it's like to help people.
Especially with what's happened since; Going to the 13th, meeting Zero properly, Fighting Archfiends and Golbez, it could've been really interesting stuff for him to be there for, having to confront what he's done and get to fight new Otherworldly foes together
Long story short, I wish there were more nice options towards him in EW, the fact we can't be nice to him when he comes to help us fight the end of the universe but we can be nice to Hades who tried to turn us into a symbol of doom is a bit strange
"Zenos was right about me," you say.
"Zenos was wrong about my Warrior of Light," I say.
Having heard and watched a LOT of reactions to that final scene, I think responses to it can depend a lot on whether a player views the Warrior of Light as their in-game avatar, or as a character in their own right.
I don't think either approach is more valid than the other, but I do think it is one reason (of many) why that scene can land so well for some people, and so badly for others.
Honestly, I'm jealous you got to enjoy it. Because for me, I was so sick and tired of seeing Zenos. To me, he lingered in the game for six years like a long, embarassing fart. I spent all of Endwalker telling him over and over that I was never going to give him what he wanted, I wasn't going to give him that fight he so desperately wanted. I didn't want to reward his bad behavior. So for me, I was furious that even with every single time I told him I refuse to fight him again, that the developers forced the fight on me anyway.
To me, the final fight in Endwalker was a massive blot on an otherwise amazing expansion story, and I wish I could have seen it through a perspective more similar to yours.
I can see that honestly. Not entirely wrong. haha
I always love an intense fight in a game and I really wanted to fight zenos especially after he took my body just for a flex and it was all worth it for that fight at the end of the world. And his end was well done so yeah hopefully that was truly his last breath
Weirdly enough for the entirety of Endwalker when Zenos would show up and challenge me I rolled my eyes a bit, like, I’ve already beaten this guy and he just wouldn’t leave me alone like some kind of stalker. But now after hearing this take on his character and understanding why he did the things he did, I love him for a different reason.
In the very first cutscene of ARR my WoL told the twins that he was traveling to find power. And in the final confrontation he told Zenos that he rejected him and would only fight him out of necessity. It really feels like my WoL had developed over the course of the MSQ from a light reflection of Zenos, sealing out power for power’s sake, to rather gain power to protect the world and the people in it.
I went from rolling my eyes at the screen, to imagining my WoL rolling his eyes at this madman stalker who just wanted to fight him.
Important to note that from the end of Stormblood to your final encounter, the framing of the question changes.
It goes from "you're just like me" to "we have this one thing in common"
Tbh SB Zenos felt like a let down. I have not played EW yet but I was hoping to fight him as a mortal not an Eikon. We killed primals before, he wasnt going to be any different once he turned into one.
Although I did enjoyed the theory that those possessed with Echo can by extension control Primals so yeah that's a good concept idea wish it was more expanded on. Maybe it is in EW idk.
I would like Zenos to come back. But not as an antagonist. He started out that way, a pure antagonist, then became a rival antagonist. I would like to see him come back as a rival PROtagonist. An Anti-hero to the WoL hero. Think Vegeta from DBZ. That's ultimately the role I think he was maturing towards, or is perfect for him. It's the role he near enough fulfills at the very very end of Endwalker. It's just a pity it was so short lived. One that's capable of challenging the hero, and has the capacity to get in the way of the hero if the situation suits it. He's not above being selfish or clashing with the hero once again due to his selfish needs.
I haven't played since a few months after the release of Endwalker, but since the new expansion is coming up I will be picking it up shortly. If there is new lands to explore, this also means that from Zenos perspective, there is a new potential for a challenge and someone even more powerful than the WoL. So there's easy motivation there.
Heck, it could even be the case now, I haven't played the game in so long, so maybe they have that in mind. I'll find out soon enough. But thank you for the short video on Zenos. I'm just browsing YT to jog my memory of all of Endwalker before I pick it up in the next couple of weeks.
I came back to this video after seeing that they are going to put msq quests about the voidsent zenos used when he was a reaper honestly I hope zenos doesn’t come back but imo 7.0 might have something to do with the thirteenth reflection
zenos giga chad enjoyers rise up
Ah damn it, I’m still part way through Stormblood thanks to first lack of funds then huge problems getting around a payment bug. But I’m backing on out of here because Zenos and I have had but one meeting thus far.
"Why does he want a photocopy of the echo?"
To me it always struck me as he wanted it because you had it. He saw the WoL as a mirror so of course he would want to stand on similar grounds. He would groom you to reach your full potential and he would have the power of the Echo. Then when you finally fight, one on one, you would be on completely equal grounds - two sides of the same coin.
Huh. I just realized that the only way for Zenos to come back in the game and make sense is to have him be reincarnated.
What if, like in Dragon Ball, the one villain with the potential to be the most powerful non-protagonist character becomes a character the WoL teaches or even raise so that that person doesn't become evil, even with that insane potential for combat? What if the one soul from the characters we know and love that is washed from its memories' aether(with still lingering feelings for fighting a powerful foe, i'd wager), is born anew in another very powerful body and meets our WoL, it happens to be the guy either everyone hates or don't care about's, who can now turn to a new leaf because of rebirth?
It certainly is something I lowkey want in a new expansion. It would explore how a new character would deal with a past the WoL and the player has seen, and it would be even more interesting considering how much development could happen to such a character over time.
Me as a player picked the first option because 1 that's awesome and 2 that echoes my desires as a player. My character however: "You're a danger to the world and I can not forgive the atrocities you have committed. You will atone Zeno's...*draws weapon* "whether you wish it or not"
Harsh as it may sound, Zenos bored me the very first time I met him. And I treated him the same way until the end of Endwalker. To me, he was a spoiled brat, never satisfied of what he had, always wanting more no matter what the cost to people around him. The only time I was glad is when I saw that one of his tantrums made him come to me at the edge of time and space, allowing me to fight Meteion. One drop of good doing amongst an ocean of wicked actions. He never had my attention, no more than a mere bug flying around me, not even in Stormblood. I cared way more about Yotsuyu and Hermes '-'
Oh yeah Yotsuyu was well done
The funny thing about the intro is that Zenos acts of atrocity are actually pretty mild compared to Nidhogg, Emet, Varis, Meteion and even Hydaelyn.
Agreed. Most of the crimes he committed were murder on people he though could give him even a glimmer of entertainment in a fight.
Others did far more fucked up things, whether for selfish pursuit of power for power sake, blinding rage, thick headed stubbornness to the righteousness of their ideals, or what they legitimately believed to be the best course of action for the greater good
I always liked Zeno's, even when there where those who said he was a boring villain. Because he was so consistant. He did not betray out of randomness nor lie out of cowardness. If he was to defeat you, it was by his hand and his power. And when he lost, for the first time in his life, he didn't run. He accepted your victory and refused to let anyone else fell him. Because they didn't stop him. You did.
I did think being brought back was a little cheap, but it was interesting me to wonder if his body had never been stolen, would he have never returned? Was it the meddling of Ascians that caused Zeno's to search for a new fight, for he was not allowed to rest in his accepted defeat?
Yet his death in Endwalker was beautiful. For he didn't call on you to fight because he was a threat, but because at your heart, the place where this story began, you are an adventurer. And that I could not deny.
I had my own feelings on Zenos. Throughout Endwalker, anytime I got a dialogue prompt, there almost always seemed to be one that indicated that the WoL was just getting so, so tired. That sense of, “I am doing what I do because Someone has to do it. Someone has to be the front line, a champion, a hero. My WoL, Yasha Idunia, isn’t interested in power or victory or fame, she is just doing what needs to be done, and doing it again and again.
When Zenos, at the very edge of creation, tried to call me out as someone who enjoys pushing themselves, enjoys “dancing ever closer to the precipice” I had a moment of thinking, “How dare you.”
“I have been at the ground zero for so many battles, decided multiple wars, of multiple magnitudes in Multiple Worlds! I have lost more than I ever thought possible, not even having a life of my own because I have to spend every waking moment pulling someone from the fire, ignoring how burned my own hand is. And you DARE think I enjoyed that!?”
I did end up choosing “That, I can’t deny,” option, but only because my brother was watching the stream over discord. But as far as I am actually concerned, “Fuck you Zenos. You are incapable of understanding what I feel, or what compels me to act.”
Thanks for sharing; take care
honestly it's a strange feeling to mourn for someone, a character in a story even, that you know is a monster. someone you know is so twisted they'd sacrifice a nation, if not the entire world just to get what they want and that thing they want isn't some grand objective or a cause like has been the case with someone like emet -selch or many of the other people we had to face but was instead the same kind of basic selfish desire to please themselves you might expect from a bandit or a thug, all without being some two bit thug.
it's strange but when I think of the send off zenos got in endwalker i can't help but feel kind of sad. I wonder what might have been if circumstances had been different. I wonder if there was ever any hope for a better path for him. even sad that with him dead, well and truly dead this time we won't see more of a character I liked and honestly wasn't tired of yet but it's good for the story that he stays dead. it's good that his death sparks up this strange sadness and I feel a resurrection would only cheapen this feeling. it's also strange to on the one hand feel upset but on the other glad he went out on his own terms.
Tbh, if Zenos wasn't a madman and didn't kill on whims and used his abilities to protect, I would have been proud to even consider Zenos a friend, we are ultimately the same, just 1 crucial difference sets us apart, and when he asked our character (the warrior of light) I responded with the only true answer, the one where he understood me well
Stormblood felt pretty forgettable, but fighting him made an impression. Fighting him the second time when he broke it down and the fact we get to respond to him but also the fact the speech options made sense I actually felt like the words were truly my own.
By the end of it, even though he was a monster, I think it's appropriate to say. Zenos, thanks for a fight to remember, friend.
The echo is capable of what Zenos did to Shinryu, the Ascians showed that Sahagon priest doing it.
The only thing I appreciate about the final fight was having the option to say "I've had enough of you." For me, Zenos was wrong about my WoL and I saw him as delusionally projecting himself onto my character. I saw his desperation for understanding and friendship, but hell no I wasn't going to indulge this because that's not how you earn my acceptance.
What's probably more interesting about Zenos than his character (I confess I am not a big fan of such archetypes) is the fact that his presence helps to characterize your WoL - whether you identify with what he characterizes you as, and whether you see him as a friend.
When I faced of against Zenos for the fist time I thought "this will be easy, I've trounced every enemy in every expansion in the game so far". When Zenos then handed me my arse, I was happily surprised. I laughed, OK, this is gonna be good. Not long ago I absolutely destroyed a dragon of the first brood and here is a man, just a man who makes Nidhogg look like a Moogles plaything and that was before he became powerful.
Bringing Zenos back for a 3rd time would turn him from an epic and rather unique character, into a pest that "needs to be dealt with yet again". So far the writing has not disappointed us, so its pretty safe to say that he's dead for good. As for the reaper avatar, I kinda wish the whispers and theories about it being Azem's shard from the 13th to be true. We met Ardbert who was a hero... and i'd like to see the antithesis of that.
4:45 didn't he need the echo photocopy so he could mantle Shinryu? Otherwise, regardless of how strong he was, he'd get Tempered. Shinryu was made via Primal Summoning the old wrong way, after all.
people forget, FF14 1.0, the Warrior of Light is just a simple adventure, out to seek battles and excitement of adventuring. Zenos was right all along. before we are the savior of worlds, we are just like him. the only difference is that unlike him, we have empathy and compassion. we were truly his mirror. the same but opposite reflection
Part of me is sad to see Zenos go for good, but I understand that it's a good time to put him away. But I wasn't able to give the answer he wanted with my main. Instead, I've had to make A WHOLE 'NOTHER CHARACTER JUST SO I CAN PUSH HER TO ENDWALKER AND GIVE HIM THE ANSWER HE WANTED.
I took him want his copy as an echo as a means to safely fight primals. If the warrior of light could not match him then maybe he could force people to summon gods to fight them. If anything it was just a gateway to other fights. That or he's a furry/scaley and wanted to wear Shinryu as a scale suit? I don't kink shame, I just want to take my axe and split his head open to shut him up. Zenos is a great character for me as a role player. I the player agree with you at the start of the vid, my player down right can't agree with him down right hating him, so glad that the third option was there before that final fight. However if Zenos wanted to get us to all hate him he should have attacked the Rising Stone. I forsaw that as what he would do during the End of Days but no he wandered off after Zodiark's death. I guess I was expecting darker and more selfish actions from him.
If he comes back, the beauty of his death and the debatable wish he made to give you the teleporter would be utterly shattered. The writing team my be very hesitant to kill off characters but let him stay dead
Maybe Zenos will come back only finish his final speech and rejoin with us like Ardbert did in order to see the world through our eyes and to experience future battles even greater than what we shared with him.
While I never really enjoyed Zenos, in SB he served a purpose. He drove the narrative forward. But I firmly believe it was a misstake to bring him back, because after his death at the end of 4.0 and subsequent resurrection, he didn't add anything to the story. The part he played in ShB and EW could have be filled by anyone, puppeted by Fandaniel. This would additionally have allowed Fandaniel to be more than a cackling maniac.This was fanservice, and imo poorly written as well. If it was well done, not only Zenos fans would appreciate it, but also those that didn't care for him would appreciate the story. However, it seems to me that the appreciation of Zenos existance in EW in general and of the end fight in particular seem to hinge on weather the player accepts the premise that Zenos is a mirror to either the WoL or the player themselves.
I would however actually look forward to a video on why Zenos is an interesting and well written character that wasn't based in the premise that we all enjoy a good challenge and Zenos is where the WoL would be barring circumstance.
Yee well said. I can totally see Zenos as eye candy sure but I still questioned why he had to comeback to live and scare even an Ascian out of his body. It just made his suicide hold less weight caus show is his soul even alive if he supposedly "died" by his own hands.
The only way I wanted to fight Zenón would have been in a one sided duel where he doesn’t even get to touch me, preferably if it was over in one hit. He was a genocidal maniac who personally killed thousands and directly caused the deaths of probably millions through the Final Days and the civil war in Garlemald. WHY WOULD I EVER GIVE HIM THE CATHARSIS HE WAS LOOKING FOR BY KILLING ALL THOSE PEOPLE?!? But apparently the writing team thought they were writing a the script for Naruto or some shit like that... I HAAAAAAATE IT SO MUCH....
new Rick and Morty episode quote: "happiness always end. best case scenario, Best Case, is that you Die at the same time"
"Would you be 'happier' had I a 'good reason'?"
Im combat sexual so Zenos and I were a match made in heaven. I still wouldnt be mad if he came back as some sort of primal inner voice
I personally denied Zenos. Sure, challenges are great, but they aren't a goal by themselves, and are only worth it for a good reason, or an "excuse" sa he would dismiss. That's why I interpret his final moment to be a bit empty in contrast to the WoL, lying not far, who still yearned for exploration.
Zenos is just the goat.
My thoughts and responses:
1. YoshiP and Ishikawa-san have both said that Zenos is definitely dead this time. His legacy may loom in the future via his Reaper Voidsent, but the man himself will not come back.
2. Zenos put me off for the longest time after his ressurection. I agreed that, narratively, he should have stayed gone.
3. In-universe, I think Zenos would have been content to remain dead/dormant had Elidibus not taken his body. It was the body snatching he took offense to and that 'woke him up'.
4. I fell in love with Zenos only at the very end. That someone would believe in me that much? I'm unsure that even our allies believed in us as much as Zenos did. "I thought you would be above something so banal as despair."
zenos is very much a villain for the player, not really the WoL. he's not some big bad threat to the world, he's a fellow player who's way too into pvp and finally found someone who he can't just slap around.
My biggest gripe with the whole final fight against Zenos was that they didn't give a dialogue option that was something halfway between the first and second options, like "I'm going to enjoy kicking your ass you hedonistic sociopathic nimrod", like do I enjoy a good challenge? Yes. Do I need to have some actual harm involved or at stake or at the expense of others for me to actually have it? No.
I do like how Zenos is the perfect foil to the WoL though, like a broken mirror, in that he's someone who won't, who can't even hear, think, or feel for others. Like our whole journey has been about empathy and validating the joy & suffering of others and offering them a hand. He was right in that everyone has to search for the answer as to why they exist on their own, but the answers of others mean nothing to him.
Which is why I really liked the talking down Alisaie gave him in Garlemard about how not regarding others even in the slightest bit will leave him alone and unfulfilled. And why I really loved the bit at the end where he finally, finally opens up even for the tiniest bit about how he never really understood why other people matter, talks about what really drives him... then asks *us* about how we feel, finally being considerate of someone that isn't him. It's the best kind of end we can get for his character without demeaning all the horrible things he's done, I think. I like to think that the teleporter reaching us was his final wish for us to continue on, as a gift for giving him the time of his life. Such a fascinating bastard of a character.
I dont understand why people hate Zenos storyline. I think he is one of the most well written character. he even have his little character development.
He saddened me, because he seemed *depressed*. Flat affect, seeking to feel something... I wanted him to find that there was something *more*.
For most of his screen time I wrote him off as a 2D combatsexual. But it wasn't until he responded to other characters demanding an explanation for his actions that I started becoming more charitable with him as a character. I mean, we're talking about a blood soaked maniac here. How do you justify that to anyone except yourself? And what good would it do for anyone? Most would try, but he doesn't even bother.
It isn't that he's obsessed with fighting the player character, it's that he's utterly disinterested in everything else.
I did the final fight with Zenos a Dark Knight because I thought it was the final justice he deserved after all the shit he had done. No mixed feelings, no conversation, just me killing him flat out.
Also to add onto your point:
The player's annoyance of Zenos' return across all of Shadowbringers & Endwalker were also what Zenos himself felt, no?
Annoyance at having to do this all again, but interest in making the best of it regardless?
I don't agree about Zenos' thoughts around his first death. He didn't want to die at his happiest point, he knew full well that he was going to jump to another body. If anything he knew that if he didn't die there, he would probably be executed or imprisoned forever and if that happened, he would never be able to relive the moment so he took an out, planning to go get his body back later but Elidibus stole it before he could.
For me, in stormblood Zenos had so much potential that was wasted. But endwalker? Endwalker realizes that potential and more.
I did not want to fight Zenos. I just wanted to leave him there to die at the end of the universe. Good riddance.
Zenos may be right about why the player behind the WoL fights. Because they're there for the excitement and whatnot. But that is not (necessarily) the character of the WoL. The WoL is a blank slate for us to insert ourselves into. Their character is never really set in stone, because the developer wants you to be able to do perceive your character as you want them to be. So in my imagination, my WoL is a kind soul who only fights because she has to, because her friends and allies rely on her, because she's been given this gift to be able to defend the world.
I have never connected with Zenos, I had no bond with Zenos, I had no interest in fighting him whatsoever. Unfortunately, there was no option for me to express that at the end of Endwalker. So I'm forced into killing him as a sort of "he has to die so he can't do more evil" kind of option. So he feels validated and can die in bliss in the end. And while the cutscenes are fun and the fight is mechanically decent, in terms of the story, it just left me empty and it kind of ruined the conclusion of the main arch after the Endsinger battle. Too bad, really.
I agree
I felt morally obligated to contact weight watchers on his behalf. At least in stormblood. Dude obviously boredom eats and that armor wasn't hiding any of it.
HA! Acceptance, at long last!
Am I the only one who sees a bit of Junko Enoshima in Zenos? They're not too different personality wise and I too hope they don't bring him back a 3rd time or they truly will be going the Junko Enoshima route.
I will only accept him coming back again if it's as a batista at the Cafe at the end of the universe.
I really really hope he doesn't come back in the patches AGAIN! His story was over in SB and it's over again NOW! Just move on to a new villain!
I agree but I would like to know more about him like how he became who he is etc, but I’m fine with that being a side story or something
@@JamesW609 That'd be a perfect use for the echo!
Zenos came across to me like someone's edgy OC who is super awesoem at everything. Hell. When you fight him most times, you deplete his HP and the game says he wins anyway.
The rivalry with Zenos was the only point where the MSQ characterised my wol as someone I would never play her as and it was frustrating
You can refute him. He thonks you are, it’s not the game saying you are.
Yeah, Zeno''s avatar and the Thirteenth...