The S&W Revolver that's Not an S&W Revolver
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- Опубликовано: 18 окт 2024
- How revolvers for WWII saved Smith and Wesson from bankruptcy.
Music - Fractal of Light - Chris Haugen - You Tube Audio Library
On Choice of a Defensive Firearm: Choose the firearm that meets YOUR defensive needs and is legal for your state or local jurisdiction. Just because I like revolvers for concealed carry doesn’t mean you have to too. Become your own best trainer.
You can contact Greg at Lionquestfitness@gmail.com
According to the Bible - we are to live at peace with all men as much as it is possible.
Personal defense of one’s self and of others is a last resort when there is no other option.
Self Defense Continuum - Avoid, Escape, De-escalate if possible, and if all else fails - RESIST
DISCLAIMER: All state and local laws were followed in making this video. Jeff Cooper’s rules of firearms safety were followed. Ear protection was worn. Firearms were cleared of ammunition when holding and exhibiting them.
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I'm going to clarify a few things about the designation PreVictory. This is a historical title used by collectors to differentiate the revolvers sold before the U.S. entered the war, which were .38 S&W, from the Victory revolvers manufactured after the U.S. entered the war which were predominantly .38 Special, although some .38 S&W chambered revolvers were made as well.
An important point for sure.
Too bad it’s not in original condition, it may well be able to tell you a story. I have my grandfathers PreVictory 38 S&W it has Brit proof marks as well as stampings from Australia & Rhodesia and a couple more I can’t identify if only it could shout back. Not sure how it ended up back in the US, as I was told he purchased it from a feed for $10 store in 1950 - used it to shoot rats etc. around the farm.
I sure as hell would never cut it up re-chamber it or pimp it out. As far as triggers go it has the smoothest of all my S&W’s including a Pre27 3” and a Performance Center PC-13.
For your audience sake I would encourage thinking hard as to what ammo is shot through those thin cylinder walls.
Good luck with your new toy!
@@comanche6943 Great story about your grandfather's gun.
I love firearms with a great historical story, and yours certainly has one! Thanks for sharing Greg!
@@hrfunk I'm glad you enjoyed it HR. Especially from an S&W fan like yourself.
Not only is it "a Smith & Wesson" it is one of the more important and interesting S&W revolvers ever made. That gun saved S&W and helped in the war effort. It's a treasure and I would load that gun up with 158 grain or 148 grain wadcutters or 158 grain semi-wadcutters (whichever it likes best) and carry it. I would not feel undergunned in the least. It seems to shoot just fine and it's purdy!
That's a great find! The story behind it is enough, but the fact that you can USE IT...
I'm glad you found it and thankful you shared it with us.
Think about it Big Al - that's an 83 year old revolver, and it's still very functional.
Thank you for being a content creator who understands when to and what volume to add music into their video. It made for a much more enjoyable video experience.
Great point. Always a constructive, non invasive and entertaining use of music with Lion Quest!
I love all your RUclips videos. You talk very matter a fact with integrity on your topics.
It’s super helpful to watch them and rewatch them. Bravo 👏🏻
Thanks Jeffrey. I put a lot of effort into these.
From a failed machine gun to a great revolver. Love this history!
From one amateur historian to another! 👍
A fascinating firearm, Greg! Thank you for the history and shooting demonstration.
Thanks Tom!
That's a beauty, Greg. If somebody wants to split hairs about it not being a real S&W, so be it. Either way, I wouldn't turn it down.
The S&W Revolver that's Not an S&W Revolver
Since it was made by Smith, it is a Smith regardless of who customized it later. But thanks for sharing.
Nice firearms history lesson. Nice find / nice revolver.
Very nice revolver, Greg. Good looking too. Nickel finish. Wooden K frame square butt grips with rounded edges (originally made for the 2” barrel model 15, to enhance concealment). Accurate combat shooting. God Bless. Happy Trails to You.
Thank you.
I think the history of this makes it even more interesting. The work done to it is obviously quality. Thanks for sharing that !
What would be fascinating to know was what part of the British Empire did it serve during the war.
@@LionquestFitness If guns could talk....
Thank you so much for the video. Tremendous pawn shop find and wonderful history lesson and back story. Excellent. Thank you again.
I knew of these but have NEVER ever seen one. Thank you for sharing with us.
I helped a friend identify one that had not been altered, but they seem pretty rare these days.
Thanks for another great Saturday night video & thanks for sharing the history of that interesting revolver.
One of the great joys for handgun enthusiasts is spotting an overlooked jewel in a pawn shop & I waste many happy hours in my local pawn shops doing so.
Several years ago I was in one looking at a display case of S&W J frames when one stood out from the others due to the pinned barrel & the bulbarous old style Pachmayr grips. It turned out to be a no dash Model 60 from around 1970 or so & given the scratches, scuffs, & wear on the old school rubber grips, it's obvious it was someone's daily carry... possibly even some old L.E.O.'s off duty or a Detective's service pistol...so of course I had to give it a new home...us old Cops gotta take care of each other.
Now...if I could only find a twin to it I could impersonate Gregory Hines from the great old Vietnam war movie with William Dafoe "Off Limits" LOL.
As an Army CID Investigator in Saigon, ole Gregory packed two Mod 60's & used them to square off on a squad of ARVN troops...
Jeff - one of the most unsung stories about S&W revolvers in war had to do with Vietnam. Not only were K frame revolvers issued to Air Policemen, helicopter crews and flight personnel, but many military personnel carried personal J and K frame revolvers unofficially. For anyone who finds this incredulous, they need to take a deep dive onto the older S&W forum archives on this topic from war veterans who were there.
@@LionquestFitness There is a photograph of USAF ace Col. Robin Olds standing next to I believe his multi-million dollar F105 with a S&W Model 15 .38 spl on his thigh. Probably taken at his base in Thailand during the Viet Nam War.
Hi Greg,nice video on the history of that gun and early S&W. Can you imagine making all those machine guns in the wrong 9 mm! What a disaster. Thanks for all your hard work and time Sir.
Thanks Terry!
Cool revolver. 3" on a K frame is nice because you get that full length ejector rod. Of course with this being a cut down that's pretty much a given.
I remember a number of years back reading in the American Rifleman about many of these .38/200 models being sold on the American market. Gunsmiths were running a .38 Special reamer through the chambers to convert them. As I recall, upon testing a few of these, the writer experienced spilt cases near the base. In particular IIRC, the worst offender was with nickel plated brass. The S&W case is somewhat larger near the base than the Special, creating a dangerous unsupported area. ¡Cuidàdo!
I've had this gun about seven years, but have shot it little on account of the age. So far I haven't seen this over about 200 rounds, but I am careful as to how hot an ammo I use.
Fascinating story, Greg! That's what I love about collecting firearms: the history. Every one of them has a story to tell.
The story is the most enjoyable parts of collecting.
👍👍Thanks Greg, it’s always good to learn something new, and you shot very well as you always do. That’s really a nice looking revolver.
The S&W action is the heart of the revolver, not whatever chambering it was I when it left the factory or is now. It’s not like they took an RG and bored it out and stamped “S&W” in the side of the frame. Nice gun and a great conversation piece that still shoots. Anyway, it’s comforting to know that lack of quality control was with us 80-some years ago and not a recent phenomenon. Realizing that in 1940 there were different 9mm cartridges and different names for the same ones, it is either understandable or baffling how they could get it wrong.
I think Forgotten Weapons may have done a video on those machine guns. It would interesting to see the design.
I Always wanted a Victory Model but you one-uped my wishes.
A true piece of history, but still functional and practical.
That's a sweet piece Greg.
Mr. Holster and Jack would be proud of that find!!!
Thank you.
Very interesting story and history, thank you!!!
Nifty find Greg. My Model 10 snub is a square butt w/a T-Grip, and the only service revolver I ever lucked into a perfect qual score with.
I've got one I refer to as the Joe Friday Special. Good job on the qualification. The old guns can still do the job.
I miss the older nickel plated Smiths. I had a older 41 Magnum, nickel plated in excellent condition. It just slowly was used less and less as components got harder and pricier to get. Sold it to a friend who still has it but kind of still regret it now that I'm older and have more means. Nice looking revolver, thanks for sharing.
For some reason I've been running into more and more nickel plated revolvers on the used market. Some in good shape. Some in not so good shape.
@@LionquestFitness Yea nickel. real nickel in good shape is getting rare. I know they tried some replacement coating to duplicate it in the late 90's early 2000's because of environmental laws but that stuff looked hazy and often flaked or peeled off. You've got yourself a gem!
Very fine historical insight for a nice looking revolver. Thanks, Greg.
Thank you Robert.
It is every bit of a Smith & Wesson in my book. Thanks for the interesting history lesson.
I concur. I found online awhile back a copy of a letter from Roy Jinks repudiating these revolvers and their quality. I never understood why S&W as a company tried to distance themselves from their own product.
Cool story for a cool revolver. Beautiful piece and fantastic accuracy. Nice shooting. 👍👍👍😎🇺🇸
I was hoping that these modifications were made for the Sweeney ( Scotland Yard's famously armed Flying Squad). It looks ideal for a plain clothes unit.
Those Old guns shoot great
Nice old gun! Looks like it still shoots straight after all those years.
83 years old.
Impressive accuracy.
You've shown that pistol before and I wondered exactly what it was. Im 60yrs young and I grew up with S&W -old ruger 6 guns. I was lucky enuff my father was into it smithing ect.. Thanks for the show n tell. Now Im aware of that smith you demonstrated and gave tutorial on. 👍😊
That’s very cool. I’d say of course it’s a total S&W. They made it- doesn’t matter who it went to or how many alterations it got.
LOL - my sentiments exactly.
Cool treasure. Excellent history lesson. Thanks sir.
Thank you Robert!
as always,,good info Greg.I really enjoy these types of videos.
Thanks Mark. I thought it was about time for another historical video.
It is as you write, a pre-Victory S&W pistol. When the US entered WW2 due to Navy being low down the small arms priority equipment list, the Navy was desperate for pistols until production of the 1911a1 could be ramped up. So the Navy ordered these, but in .38 Special. That was the Victory Model, the ancestor of the Model 10. Shortly afterwards there was an incident in which a loaded one was dropped on a ship and the gun fired and a very popular Chief Petty Officer was killed by the bullet. The Navy was furious and about to cancel the orders and demand their money back (which would have probably ended S&W). S&W responded with the insertion of a hammer block safety so that the gun could not discharge unless the trigger was pulled. The Navy accepted the modification for all future pistols. I do not know if any of the pre-Victory models sold to the British ever got that safety as a retrofit. Probably not. Easiest test is with a primed only case with no bullet in the chamber, smack the back of the hammer hard with a wood mallet. If the primer goes off, then no, it doesn't have that safety feature.
The companies exporting surplus guns to the US butchered a lot of gun types to make them more saleable here. I used to have a Colt 1917 the importer (Klein) sold with a barrel cut down to 2" length. Pocket cannon, LOL. They also modified a lot of Webley .455s to take .45acp ammo, which is more powerful than the guns were proof tested for.
The downside of what you have is the barrel bore is 0.365 inch but .38 Special bullets are 0.355 inch. Soft lead bullets will probably obturate upon discharge to fit the bore, but accuracy at distance will suffer. A similar situation exists for the chambers as they too are slightly over sized and some case expansion should be anticipated. As you say the use of +P ammunition should be avoided and lead ball at standard velocity is the best choice. Of course at 15 feet, none of that will much matter.
Thank you for your insights. As you said, accuracy does suffer some past 15 yards, but still acceptable by today's standards.
@@LionquestFitness At that distance yes.
Wow, very nice revolver there, and a very informative video. Thanks! 👍
Wow, that’s an excellent history lesson on that revolver. I enjoyed the vid. It’s a great looking gun IMO. And nice shooting from self defense distances too.
I was a"Colt-Man" 1957-2007. Then, by twist of fate, tried a Sigma .40 Smif & Western! Still love my Colt, but now enjoy picking up S&W history! And, yes, love muh Sigma! TY!
Both of the S&W forums have archives with a lot of S&W history.
Nice find and history.
I’m sure this ol gal would be more than worth of keeping you safe!
What an interesting gun. I love history and knew about victory revolvers, but the rechambering, barrels cut down, nickel plating, then resale, I had no idea! Good stuff! Hang onto that one Greg.
It is a good conversation piece.
The old .38 S&W cartridge is a bit fatter than the nominal diameter of .357" diameter of the .38 Special that came later. If you want to reload cast lead bullets for it they generally come from the mold at around .360" and work perfectly unsized at that diameter. Tumble lube with liquid alox or use pan lubed bullets and the old cake cutter method. Works fine. Getting the fixed sight guns to shoot to the sights may require bullet weight experiments to see where they land. Anything from 145 grains up to 200 grains (.380 Revolver .38/200) has been stuffed into that cartridge case for different guns and applications.
It's still a good looking Revolver Love your videos Greg God bless you from Kentucky 🙏
And blessings to you on a beautiful Sunday morning!
Nice old wheelgun! Even if it isn't a S&W.....
Thanks Pat!
It was manufactured by S&W and is made with their design of lock work, frame, cylinder, etc. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck I'd call it a duck. It's a nice piece of history that I would call a S&W
Me too.
That's a beautiful piece Greg, it must feel great to own it.
I would rather have that S&W over a new 1 in the box. I like the history behind a gun. I have a 3in model 36. Id love to have the S&W in the video
Very Intresting Pistol..looks real Nice as well.... Cheers
Its a revolver not a pistol fool.
Thank you very much. You have a piece of history.
Thanks Greg. Great job. Good info. God bless. Happy trails.
To the sunny slopes of long ago...
Call it what you like but it’s a Smith & Wesson
A Rose by any other name would smell as sweet.
- William Shakespeare
Your videos are very informational and detailed. Thank you for the yeras of great videos
Thank you.
I've seen one by Cogswell & Harrison or marked that way then rechambered to 38Special and reduced to 3" from the standard 5 to 6" .38-200.
I've been wondering how many of these are still out there.
That’s a great looking revolver, Greg. 👍👍👍👍
You know, S&W really missed the boat on the revolver revival. A simple .38 revolver in that three inch configuration, priced in the $500 to $600 range could have been a big seller for S&W. When making the video I kept thinking about what a practical carry piece this gun could be. It's easy to conceal, it's easy to shoot and it's easy to reload.
@@LionquestFitness S&W has the J frames priced between $500-$800 now, so I completely agree with your assessment.
The case and projectile of the 38 S&W (38/200, also 380 British) are larger in diameter than the 38 Special. Deepening the step in the .387" chambers of a 38 S&W to accommodate the .379" diameter 38 Special case will result in a .008" oversized chamber that causes case bulging and splitting. The .360" bore provides poor gripping on the .357" projectiles which can cause some accuracy problems. It can be done and it has been done, but as you indicated, the loads should be kept mild.
Thank you for getting into the dimensions and specs thereof.
Thank you for that information. 😀
@@LionquestFitness In my collection I have some unaltered S&W revolvers chambered in 38 S&W and one 1941 British Purchasing Commission Colt Official Police marked 38/200 that is actually a 38 Special. The story behind how this anomaly came about remains somewhat shrouded in mystery, but I ended up using my pin gauge set to determine the real differences in chamber and bore dimensions.
Very interesting history.
Good, informative video. I would gladly buy & use one of them. .38 Special is probably the best handgun cartridge, and a revolver always functions. The nickel plating looks good. You certainly took out the "bad guy" target. I have the cousin to that one; a 4-inch M & P.
You are holding a piece of history in your hands. A beautiful one at that. Thank goodness it did not end up in a scrap heap. Instead, it ended up in the hands of someone who truly appreciates it.
Thank you!
Great video, Greg!
Finally, an interesting history lesson. Thanks.
Interesting, I once saw a Ruger SP101 that was made for the French police 😯
Now that is very interesting.
Very interesting story, thanks for sharing.
Great lesson sir and a good looking revolver and she shoots good too
Now that is cool!!!🎉
Well, the old gal shoots pretty good! 👍 That was a good find. The Italian gunsmiths did a great job. 👌
Had a 4" Victory model in 38Spl made for plant guards in the US come into my shop back in the 80’s. Pulled the lanyard swivel, nickel plated it, and gold plated the hammer, trigger, and screws. Sold for three times my cost. Now a Victory model ain't cheap. 😅
That's one I would have liked to have seen. Many S&W collectors depreciate the value of these war veterans that have been altered, but if the guns were made better by the modifications, to me it enhances the value and doesn't distract from the history.
@@LionquestFitness Yes sir, it was in fair shape when I took it in trade for another weapon I sold. I also refinished the grips as well. An officer I worked with bought it for his wife as an anniversary present. She loved it! And everyone was happy. 😁
Greg, I always enjoy your videos!!!
Thank you!
great history, thanks Greg !!
Hi Joe!
Smith & Wesson or not but you shot that well Greg. Good history.
The original .38 S&W chambering would never have accommodated the longer .38 Special rounds. No clue what those Italian gunsmiths did to rectify that situation. The original cylinder would have been considerably shorter in length. It should be literally physically impossible to remove the shorter cylinder and just attach a longer one onto there. This is just very confusing.
There are two rings cut inside the cylinder holes. One was the original to retain the shorter .38 S&W cartridge. The other was cut to accommodate the longer .38 Special cartridge.
@@LionquestFitness
Thank you for the clarification. Appreciate it.
It’s a...Smessthed up Wesson. But it works!
Very British Smith as they say "Bloody Good!"
😃
That's an interesting bit of history there.
Finding an old gun like that and searching for the history and information on it is often more fun than shooting it.
Larger bore than a 38 Special and they shot a 200 gr. Bullet.
Absolutely I'd use that for defense. For years I carried the Model 66 in 3" round butt. It had adjustable rear sight, but in a quick defensive situation I would have just shot instinctive with both eye open, center of mass.
That is a beautiful piece and plenty accurate. I like the 3" barrels foer the full length extractor rod to get those chambers cleared fast. My Model 60 can be a bit sticky with the short rod.
My Grail Gun is a Model 10, round butt. They are now hard to find.
I've got a square butt, but you're right they are hard to find.
That one looks great, if others are that pretty and accurate I would like one..
I'm curious if there are anymore like it still out there.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... well.. i'd say that is a s&w if I've ever seen one 😅🇺🇸
that is a beauty. people often dismiss carrying a short barrel K frame for self defense. but K frames are not really that big , and the extra weight makes it easier to shoot. and I have some pants with large enough pockets that can take a 2 inch K frame without any problems. true, not as convenient as a J frame or Colt D frame, but in the cooler months it is good to have. S&W should bring back their model 12.
Absolutely!
Does interesting things to brass, you should have shown that..
Don't forget Lee Harvey Oswald had a surplus victory, 2" if i recall
I started to mention that, but cut it out during the editing of the video.
Another great and instructive video sir, thank you. Yuma, Arizona.
Greg I set watching the video somewhat saddened . the younger shooters and police I talk to telling then how to at least double there dead speed with a trip to the local Walmart and probably under 10.00 dollars to set up old school training .but with this devilish pray and spray methods not getting proper marksmanship training. everyone knows more than everyone and don't need help or sound advice. once I drew super fast and just a accurate . I'm much older now, disabled but get around .my big hands stiff and some of my pistols getting hard to rack but my revolvers no problems. over 40 years ago a elderly retired law officer and nc state pistol champion told me how to double my draw time. still with all the modern advances we at times need to journey back to the old roads and trails to see clearly where we been to see where we're going .well I'll quit rambling on. I just had to throw my thoughts in to somebody who understands. wonderful video. Papa wishing you well. 😊
Hi Johnny - you need to check out some of the podcasts that retired officer and trainer Darryl Bolke is on. You'd definitely find a kindred spirit.
Nice gun, have a good week buddy.
God Bless you my friend!
Hi, Greg!
That is a gorgeous gun…did it come in .357 by any change?
Also say hi 👋🏼 from San Juan, Puerto Rico to Mrs. Holster if you still have contact with her!🙏🏼
Hi Ricky! .357 was around then, but none were in military use that I know of other than Patton's S&W Registered Magnum with a three and a half inch barrel. I'll pass your regards along to the CrazyScotsman.
I believe you have a USAF Security Police revolver, they were nickle plated for a special police unit. They had fake stag grips, and were carried in a Don Hume cross draw clam shell holster. They were initially plated by S&W and the barrel cut down to 4 inches, yours has been cut twice.
Interesting bit of history there. I was able to match the serial number to the lend lease program though.
@@LionquestFitness USAF specifically used lend lease victory revolvers refurbished by S&W. I will look and see if I can find the unit that was issued them.
Not sure if YT will allow me to post a image link but I will give it a try. images.guns.com/prod/2022/09/21/632b0624736aa797a289baa0d0c462f02b478a18df0f5.jpg
I tried posting a image link, but it looks like YT removed it.
@@walkingwolf8072 send it to Lionquestexercise@gmail.com and I'll post it here.
Interesting. Well done
Those guns were built like tanks and used by police for 70 plus years. They had to rip them out of the cops hands when they went to 9mm.
That's a fact. My M10-5 was my first Service Revolver, then updated to a M66-6, 357 mag. I kept my M10 since 1984. Still a fine defense weapon, it is on my end table while I'm writing this thread. They also called them Military & Police models.
Very nice shooting, Greg.
Great research. Do you have a bore diameter comparison for the 38 S@W and 38/200 colonial?
Check the comments Les. There are several people who have commented who have more knowledge than I have of those kinds of things and it has been very interesting.
I've read about the lend lease Smiths and yet never heard about that non Smith S&W
COOL WHEELIE Lefty
Corbon power ball I think 100 gr. looks hard to beat & easy on the gun .
The brits also cut them down and rebored them to 38spl so they would sell in America post war. I have a brit Victory that dates to oct 1942. it was cut behind the ejector rod locking bolt making it 2 in barrel and has a big square base front sight. That is the tell on brit done guns the big square base sight. Since it was 38sw I can shoot both 38s in it. It will bulge 38spl cases. The brits took 38sw and used a 200 gr bullet called 38/200. They tested and said it had the same stopping power as a 45acp. A lot of the cut down victory were sold post war here and carried by cops. The 38sw round came out from S&W pre WW1 I think late 1800s it was popular in the old top break guns. The 38spl came out way later. Your I bet was cut down over here I bet like many were to sell them to folks. I have several old victory's 38sws one 1942 in 38spl. The US issued the 38spl to police depts, naval and security at factories and war time places. Also before we entered WW2 the brits came over here buying up what revolvers and guns they could. I had a 1938 Colt official police 38spl 4inch with the brit markings and a loop on it. Also A Colt Police positive 38sw same markings and loop. They are very interesting guns.
Very cool! Thanks for sharing that information.
Regardless of a pundit's opinion, if it weren't an S&W, it would not have S&W stamped into the sideplate! My two-cents worth anyway
As an engineer and product designer, I'm left scratching my head at how S&W and the British government failed to confirm which 9mm the Brits wanted.
That's a kicker isn't it.
Hey greg great video my friend
Gun show coming up in Anderson at civic center may ill run across one
What date? I may get to go.
@@LionquestFitness it’s this weekend today is last day
Good video Greg, I have a question which watch do you use ? . Thank you
It is just a cheap Walmart sport watch. I'm hell on watches and beat the crap out of them, so a nice watch is out of the question.
Thank you Greg
Interesting. Never heard that story. We
Interesting video, thanks!
Excellent grouping!... That's S&W accuracy. It may be a bastard child, but imo that's still a S&W.
Hi Carlos - it opens up some past 15 yards, but still acceptable accuracy.
@@LionquestFitness That's reasonable for a 3" barrel - considering that 7-10 yards are self-defense distances.
If it came out of a S&W factory they can call it anything they want but it’s still a Smith & Wesson even if it’s a wrist rocket.
Looks like a fighter to me Greg!
It is still serviceable. I wouldn't dog it out or run hot ammo through it though.
Greg, what did your fired cases look like, coming out of those slightly oversized chambers? Probably doesn't matter if you don’t reload, but if you do I’d expect case life to be shorter.
I haven't noticed any bulging or splitting. However, I don't shoot this gun a lot. Maybe only a couple of hundred rounds over a seven year period.
interesting lesson. thank you.
Thank you for hanging in with me!