Budget .223 Ammo Test in an AR15 (Norma, Wolf, PMC, IMI, PPU)
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- Опубликовано: 7 авг 2024
- Accuracy testing of various inexpensive 55g 223 ammo in a Daniel Defense MK12.
Rifle: danieldefense.com/daniel-defe...
Ammo tested was PPU, PMC, IMI, Norma, Wolf Golf and Wolf steel cased.
All shooting was done at 100 yards off a bipod and rear bag. 
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.27 cents a round. my god........times have changed
Lol yeah now it’s 75 cent to a dollar now
Go to castlearms and it’s 54 cents shipped to front door. Lithuanian GGG M193
2023 PMC 223 is now going for 45 cents a round
@@9770G 80 cent in Canada 😢
Wolf Gold shot up to $700 per case, and I can no longer find any. Purchased a few cases of PMC BRONZE @ $410 per case a few months ago and it's back to $499-$549. And that cheap Wolf steel is consistently over $500 a case.
I love when people throw stuff around so nonchalantly..
I've shot 1 to 1.5 MOA with a couple of these ammos, I think we have a SHOOTER problem or a rifle problem, not an AMMO problem... Have seen 2 MOA groups done at 100 yards with a .5 MOA red dot with Wolf .223 ammo...
I tend to agree that we have to consider there is a rifle, optic and/or shooter component in these groups, if nothing else the majority tend to group in a similar way out to the largest group size. I've used a couple of these ammo types, Wolf Gold is pretty decent and I've found the PMC to be very accurate, I'd certainly expect sub 2 MOA groups and consistency with that particular ammunition. Ultimately everyone should try them in there own rifle, but I'd hate to think people watch this presentation and judge all this ammunition based on these results. As just one example I've seen the IMI ammunition shot in a better group using iron sights in another RUclips video.
"I am sorry mister robber, I shot you with poverty ammo, I apologize. I didn't have expensive stuff to tickle your fance"
Army standards are 4 cm at 25m which is roughly 5-3/4 MOA. If you can do at least that much in a prone supported position, then you are already better than most soldiers at shooting.
It’s sacrilegious to place a box of IMI anywhere near WOLF.
I 3 gun with a 16" CHF chrome lined barreled AR556. At 100 yds, my Federal 55gr bulk .223 at $.30/rnd shoots 2" groups. Norma .223 Tac 55gr at $.40/rnd uses the same zero with .5" groups. So, when the target is past 200yds I switch to the mag loaded with Norma. Love that stuff.
Wolf in 7.62 and 223 has always shot really well for me with groups around 1.5 moa in 223 and 2 moa for 7.62x39
I have rifles that group under half MOA with heavy grain match Ammo, but hate anything that is 55 grain. It’s been my experience that 1/7 twist barrels don’t like most factory 55 grain loads. In order to get good accuracy (less than 2MOA) with 55 grain Ammo out of a 1/7 twist barrel you usually have to hand load and tweek the powder charge until you get something that works with your barrels harmonics. I have a gun with a 1/9 twist that shoots wolf gold MOA.
I think that might have been the case. I’ve accumulated a bunch of heavier 223/5.56 loads that I’ll test through the DD soon and post the results.
Out of my 1/7 twist 14.5 geissele urgi I tried there remmington 223 55 grain and I was getting 1" groups at 100 yards litterally the first day I zeroed the eotech and any closer they were going through the same holes.... I think as long as it's not insanely cheap Ammo you should be good because everyone says I should be shooting heavier bullets out of that set up. But if it works it works
Bipod jump. Get softer feet for the bipod, shoot off of a softer surface, or use a bag for support. A lot of sling shooters can hold a half MOA with an AR.Bipod can hurt accuracy if they aren't used properly. Consistent preloading is the key and getting behind the gun in a proper position to take the recoil, even with a 5.56.
During a long range class, I was specifically told not to preload it. Logic went you can't preload on all surfaces/positions and your zero might change.
BGB they shoot benchrest 6ppc at my club, we formed up and poured ten concrete benches just for their competitions. You won’t catch those guys using soft bags or bipod feet, their rests have hardened steel sharpened points that they actually hit into the concrete with a small hammer. As far as his “bipod jumping” being a problem, that bullet has cleared the barrel before any bipod jumping.
I would have to say no on that, I blast my cadex r7 in 6.5cm without preloading the bipod and always get
Group size is an indicator of the consistency of the trajectories of the rounds. There are a number of factors that can affect the trajectory of the round:
1. Powder charge
2. Bullet weight
3. Bullet profile
4. Bullet spin (does it yaw in flight? If it does, that'll greatly affect the flight characteristics)
5. Barrel harmonics
There's usually some variation in the powder charge across rounds of the same make and model, but it's not usually enough by itself to cause groupings as large as what you saw (especially from rounds from the same lot). Bullet weight is almost always very consistent across rounds from the same lot in my experience. Same for bullet profile.
The bullet spin is another matter, and there are a couple of things that can factor into that: twist rate, and barrel crown consistency. If there's any scoring or other defect in the crown, it'll cause problems with the rounds as they exit the barrel. Thing is, that'll affect *all* bullets, and you'll get crap groupings from all ammunition. If you're getting solid groupings from at least some types of rounds then the crown is almost certainly fine.
Twist rate *can* cause problems, but generally only when the twist rate isn't high enough and the bullet is understabilized. If a 1:7 twist rate were too high for a 55 grain bullet then *all* rifles with a 1:7 barrel would have problems shooting a 55 grain bullet. But that's not the case at all. In fact, my 18" 1:7 twist rate stainless .223 Wylde chambered AR-15 likes 55 grain Hornady Patriot BTHP match ammo enough that it shoots sub-MOA groups with it, and *doesn't* shoot such groups with heavier rounds of the same make and type (tested all the way up to 75 grains). Similarly, my 16" 1:7 stainless 5.56 pencil-barreled AR-15 shoots 55 grain Fiocchi FMJ rounds at about 1.5 MOA (and about the same with Hornady Patriot 5.56 55gr FMJ rounds). No, if 1:7 twist were too much for a 55 grain pill, those rifles just wouldn't be able to shoot 55 grain rounds as well as they do.
That leaves barrel harmonics, and they are *very* barrel-dependent. They matter because the motion seen at the tip of the barrel as the round leaves the barrel will greatly affect the trajectory of the round. And that motion has some randomness to it. I expect that the more motion at the tip at the time the bullet leaves the barrel, the larger the groups you'll end up with. This, I believe, is why my 18" .223 Wylde rifle likes 55 grain bullets better than anything else despite its twist rate and length. And unless you have crown damage, it's likely why your groups were so bad.
There are a couple of things that can be changed to alter the barrel motion as the bullet exits: the powder charge (governs the amount of time it takes for the bullet to exit the barrel) and the bullet weight. Both ultimately affect the motion of the barrel as well as how much it's moving at the point when the bullet exits. It's because the powder charge has an effect here that one works up a load for accuracy by varying the powder charge to see what powder charge yields the most accurate round. If the powder charge weren't a factor in the harmonics, then it wouldn't affect group size at all, only the location of the group. But it does affect group size.
In your case, my suspicion is that your barrel would do much better with higher weight bullets, not because of the twist rate but because of the harmonics. There wasn't enough of a change in the harmonics across the various rounds you tested here to get you to a point where the result was very consistent. Of course, that presumes no problems with the barrel's crown, with your shooting technique, etc.
Thanks for the comment!
This has actually shot 77s quite well. MOA or better. I have a group here around .8 from IMI 77s.
@@TacticalAccountants -- Wow, nice! Yeah, means your barrel definitely likes heavier pills.
That said, you could probably handload 55 grain pills and get excellent groups after figuring out a suitable powder charge. Based on your experience, that charge is likely to be a decent bit less than full power. But harmonics are a strange thing so you never really know until you try it.
It's interesting that my rifles seem to do well with 55 grain pills. My 16" stainless steel 1:7 twist pencil barrel shoots 55 grain pills at least as well as my 16" M&P Sport 2, which has a 1:9 twist barrel. Things like that are what lead me to conclude that it's not the twist rate that makes the difference, it's the harmonics.
Just to eliminate the various other factors that could affect the results, you should try it again, this time with a bag instead of the tripod and in relatively calm wind conditions. It'd be interesting to see if you get results substantially different from what you got here. Frankly, I suspect you won't, but you (and we :D ) won't know until you try it. Either way, here's hoping you get the opportunity to do that soon. What with this virus running around and all, I won't be surprised if it's a while until that happens.
Pmc bronze is inexpensive in the grand scheme of things, I think it’s a step up from the rest of those. 55 grain stuff is super flat, highly polished cases, good clean burnin stuff. I was curious about the wolf gold, never shot it.
Norma use higher grade brass and components in there ammo than pmc. Pmc is good but if I was to reload any of those norma is a premium brass manufacture. Some rifle like a cheaper load of factory ammo and I love that when it happens (there all cheap in this video) RWS, lapua nosler are the top brass makers . Then next tier is nosler bulk, norma . Then after that Peterson, starlin sig sauer. Next tier LC ,Remington, federal, . From there it just regarded just plinking ammo. Norma gives match grade quality at bulk ammo prices. But when it comes to factory ammo it is a roll of the dice. I prefer it to be the cheapest ammo shoots the best.
@@aaronmclean8671pmc is loaded light for a 55gr bullet at only 2900fps. I have Norma gold match 69gr bthp that is loaded at 2936 fps. That's why I stick with wolf. At least they pump it up to about 3240fps. I find they are pretty close to Hornady 55gr in speed and drop. So I practice with wolf and do the important stuff with the Hornady, and I keep my rifle clean. The only real difference is the wolf steel is slightly dirtier, and doesn't group quite as tight for me, but it's close enough that when I switch to the higher end Hornady or normal I'm good to go.
Combat Accuracy! I'll Take All Of Them! Everyone Of These Rounds Will Save Your Life In A Self Defense Or SHTF Situation! Thanks For The Video! ✌️🇺🇸✌️
Well it's October 2023 and some of that is no longer "budget" ammo. Especially the Norma tac 223. I've had great success with Norma ammo in 9mm, and especially the brass case 7.62x39 in both AK and bolt guns. Great stuff.
The TAC 223 is hard to find and the cheapest I've seen is $.55/rd
Norma is some good stuff, if I can't get that I go with the pmc
Most norma is good. I like their 45 acp ammo. They load their 230gr ball ammo to just over 930fps. It's definitely on the stouter side and you can feel it. Very accurate as well. I carry either that or federal 230gr law enforcement tac hst.
@@erict855I prefer the wolf. It's loaded a bit hotter and every bit as accurate if not a bit more. Pmc is loaded a little on the light side. 2900fps muzzle velocity with only a 55gr bullet. Should be 3100fps minimum. Wolf is rated at 3241fps. Hornady is right there at 3240fps with a 55gr bullet.
I have a DB-15 5.56 1/8 twist and it surprisingly shoots Tula fairly decent. Some days it's 3moa other days it's 1.5. It shoots heavy grain otms very nicely too.
one day this and the other day that. that is the shooter.
What ammo did you zero your scope?
Hi, what is your trigger weight ?
So after this “review” all you’ve confirmed is that expensive ARs and expensive optics don’t help. 👍
You need to check the adjustment of the nut behind the butt plate. Improper tightness causes inaccurate grouping. I know you old school GIs know this one is always true.
I love me some wolf and pmc ammo
The wolf gold isn’t 223 it’s actuall Taiwanese M193 but had to say 223 for US import purposes
if you dont know 1 moa at 500 is 5 inches my norma does 3/4 in your doing 4 in at 100 thats not ammo i have shoot pmc 55grain and get 1 to 11/4 in at 100 all day with a dpms a15 and you cant tell its not the ammo
In my DPMS AR, the Norma does .64 inch groups at 100 yards
i am having the same exact experience with my .223 rem 700 varmint. it will not group for shit with any cheap ammo, and i assure you i can shoot. my girlfriend has a savage axis .223 that makes my 700 look silly with any ammo. the twist of the varmint 700 is supposed to be 1/12 but out of mere desperation i tried 5 62gr hornaday black rounds out of it and they all were touching in the bull. so the hell with the heavy barrel high dollar bolt guns they all seem to be drama queens
Quote - ''The twist of the varmint 700 is Supposed to be 1/12''' ? What? What ?
100 yards 1moa can be done with the cheapest guns all day with all that ammo wtf man
I know, right?
I hear it too much, I want to see someone do it
@@sunnesonne type, cheap ar 100 yds, you will
@@bradwood3988 I want something more specific lol, and if we are talking about cheap ar, what does cheap mean? What about cheap reliability and accuracy? Also, 1moa at 100 with 5.56 means 2 moa at 200, most cheap guns will shit themselves at anything more than a 100
Amarillo Armory makes a good inexpensive AR-15. Some as low as 500 dollars. He uses Bear Creek uppers. Can't remember what lowers, but he warranties his gun and they use a 1 in 7 twist barrel and are pretty darn accurate. He's meticulous about making sure everything is spec'd even on his cheap AR's and they do run very well.
I had real good luck with Norma tactical but now its 60 since around and if you add $20 then it's 80 cents around. And Aquila it's just not worth it at any price.
What ammo was your favorite
Norma especially when you can find it for $.30 a round.
Wolf gold was the shit and I remember walmart perfecta it was good ammo I still have some wolf gold from 2014-2017
this past weekend I went and show 223 pmc bronze out of my PSA build just to see how cheap with cheap did. and I was shocked at how accurate everything was. at 100 yard I had 9 rounds in 1.5 moa and 1 flyer about 3 inches off. I'll take those poverty rounds. because my got even the cheap stuff is 65 cents per round now.
I paid a bit under 50 cents a round today for wolf 223 and I prefer it to the pmc bronze. It's loaded hotter and I've had better luck with it for accuracy.
I paid 8.99 per box of 20 at a local store. So about 45 cents per round.
@@Wildwestwrangler daaaamn where do y’all live? I live in fucking commiefornia and July 1st we have ANOTHER 10% tax hitting us on ALL ammo sales. I hate newsome but he’s the only person in the country I’d want less than FJB as president.
No federal?
What twist rate and length is your barrel?
18” 1:7
That’s a very nice rifle. With a 1:7 twist your gun may want to eat heavier rounds. Something going on with your rig or your technique because 4” groups with even factory ammo is a red flag from a bipod. That 1:7 twist barrel must be overtly turning those light rounds or something. Thanks for the video!
If you are running a 1-7 twist you should consider 62 grain pills at a minimum. Anything heavier will probably improve your accuracy up to about 75 grains.
55 grains and lower to 45 grains, shoot better in a 1 in 9 or 10 twist barrel.
Happy hunting, Enjoyed this lesson. Thanks Tom
@@tomsmith1390and that's why I like the 1 in 8 twist as it is in my mind, the most versatile twist. 55gr up to 77gr should stabilize just fine. That being said....... We know that doesn't always bear out in the field.
what twist is your barrel?
1:7
I shoot .5 to 2 inch max groups consistently at 100 yards with a Bear Creek Arsenal 16” barrel in 223 Wylde, 1:9 twist and Wolf Gold ammo.
SAME SET UP HERE SAME RESULTS AS FRANK
Your barell twist is 1-7" and no good bor such light bullet!
27 cents... I am crying here in the year 2022 😭
Being an ammo snob doesn't make someone a good shooter
Norma is not a cheap ammo. Maybe you find that on sale but norma is expensive ammo.
When I made the video it was inexpensive.
Lol now these rounds are $.90 apiece.
Sad times we’re living in.
And wolf is back down to about 45 cents a round.
my surgeon does 3/4 to 1in at 500 not 1 moa my bad i am not trying to make you look bad all i am saying is that 1 to1 1/4 in at 100 "1moa" should be easy with all that ammo you must be pulling your shots or a problem with barrel or optic bear creek arsenal advertises 1 moa with their barrels and factory ammo way below daniel defense standards try prone off backpack or bag not sitting with bipod
Bolt guns can barely shoot Moa with some of this stuff with cherry picked groups. Not consistently. If your surgeon does 1moa with handloads, what do you expect cheap bulk to do? They can’t both shoot the same.
@@TacticalAccountantsyou need to read his post again. He didn't say his gun does 1 moa. He said he's shooting about 1 inch at 500 yards NOT 1 moa.
I can shoot way better groups with my 30/30 Winchester! I like shooting iron sights though. I sure would hit That bullseye with scope like that one on your rifle
Poverty?
Why does IMI and PPU get thrown into the cheap shit pile , i would take IMI or Lake City Mo ammo
Frontier is .32 cents a round. Its been treating me good
Frontiers good shit for the price, handloading is the way too go!
if you have a ruger that shoots 1/3 moa at 100 yards with wolf then you have a gun the rest of world wants or not too bright and 1 moa at 500 with hand loads not 100yards
PPU good amunicion
Stop shooting 55 gr in a 1:7 twist barrel, most aren't made to handle the rate of twist, PMC can. If you want to shoot 55-77 gr pills swap your barrel out to a 1:8 twist for factory loads. PMC (all) and Norma GT will shoot sub moa in a 1:7 twist. 68-77 + gr factory ammo (longer bullet) are for 1:7 & 8 twist, otherwise hand load, even if you go and find a factory 55 gr cartridge that groups well at a 100 yards it may start loosing stability out at further distances.
The PMC 55 gr will group sub MOA in a 1:8 twist. PMC will have no issues up to 750 yards....
Best dual 5.56/.223 ammo where you don't lose velocity between 5.56 & .223 is Norma Golden Target 77 gr FMJBTHP, try it, its also very accurate out to very long distances.
Do a velocity test please
Dam that's bad glad I didn't get a DD now
Chris Garmon It's not the gun. It's the shooter. lol
So they were all crap then?
Norma is made stateside now but does seem really good for the price. That’s what I stock up on. Lines up perfectly with my RCO’s BDC on my 20” A4 out to 600 yards.
That gun should have done better then what's shown what's your twist rate and maybe you optics have lose rings or your scope is not holding zero or you were having a off day we all have them
+Jeremy Orr it's budget ammo out of an AR. Maybe it should have done better and I had an off day, but you can still see which ammo shoots better and which worse.
I'm planning on doing a 5.56 budget test in the spring and I'll have Federal there.
Tactical Accountants I was just playing bud you did a good video
Me during the video: "this guy can't shoot for shit. Ima go roast him in the comments."
Me at the beginning of the comments: "HA! Looks like I'm not the only one!"
Me halfway through the comments: "jeez, everyone is piling on, maybe I should just leave him alone."
Me at the end of the comments after the dude completely deflected any and all criticism: "nope, I'm piling on. This guy's dense as a rock and he's just not getting it."
You suck at shooting. You are insulting your DD carbine so long as you continue to own it and refuse to learn to shoot it. You are a bad shot and you should feel bad.
IMI from Israel is excellent ammo, so is the ppu, this guy needs a better scope, or a lot more practice 🤔😆
shooter issue?
m surgeon will do 1/4 moa at 100 with handloads all day your dd should do 1 moa at 100 with cheap ammo what dont you get any 300 dollar bolt gun will out perform any ar 15 with i said the surgeon does 3/4 in at 500 not even close to the same wtf
The days of all bolt guns beating every AR-15 are gone!!! The modern sporting rifle has comes long way, and a good AR-15 with a competent shooter and the right load...... Just like a bolt gun can be just as accurate as any bolt gun out there!!! A lot of time and a huge amount of money has been invested in refining AR-15 accuracy. There's AR's now that are capable of pushing 1/4 moa no problem. You aren't going to get any better than that with a bolt gun either!!! The bolt gun is always more accurate than the AR-15 myth, needs to die a hard death!!! Is it easier to get a bolt gun to accuracy...... Yeah a little, but it's common now for AR-15's to be sub moa.
I'd vote shooter or rifle issue here. Ive pulled 1.5" or better groups regularly @ 100..specially with norma and pmc
Are you still a terrible shot? Cuz Norma Tac does 1 inch groups, and both it and IMI are Lake City...
3 shot 1moa groups when you do your part right?
Repeat review with 62gr. I bet your twist rate is too fast for 55gr.
mklawson83 No it isn't. I shoot subMOA groups with Federal bulk 55g, 1:7 twist, all the time. But, I'm a good shooter. lol. I shot several cloverleaf 5 shot groups from 50 yards, just yesterday, actually. One jagged hole. That's one of the dumbest myths on RUclips. Sorry... Practice, practice, practice.
Well my ar keyholes at 100 yards with 55 gr and it will barely hit the target. Around 12 inch groups. 1/9 twist rate. I don’t know what to make of that lol
@@jamiesloan5902that's your rifle. The poster's rifle obviously doesn't. He should try a heavier bullet.
@@jamiesloan5902and he could use some more practice.
my surgeon 300n shoots 1moa at 500 yards with handloads you need to know weapons if your going to review
So do you need a custom rifle and handloads to shoot 1moa or will a cheap gun with plinking ammo do it? I’m confused. Can you clarify your comments please?
Sorry to inform you that you are not the right man shooting this rifle. Consistently horrible groups with great ammo. You need some more trigger time homie.
Yo if you can't shoot don't do reviews
+walker williams yo. Solid advice. Willconsider/10.
I got sub moa groupings with PMC bronze, 5 shots at 100 yards with an $80 223 wylde barrel from Anderson. So idk whats wrong with your rifle or maybe you're yanking the trigger idk but those groupings are horrible bro. You can check out my groupings and rifle below.
facebook.com/walker.williams.944/posts/1981169418772890
If your $80 Anderson barrel shoots what looks like sub .5moa, why are people spending thousands on custom bolt action rifles, then hand loading boutique 6mm rounds for them just to shoot .5moa? Either you have it figured out, and they're wasting their money, or...?
REPLY
I couldn’t tell you bro, all I can tell you is I apply the 4 fundamentals of shooting that I learned in the Army and idk man that’s really it. Here’s the list of my build.
16 inch 223 Wylde lightweight mid-length 1/8 twist 4150 chrome molly vanadium steel barrel
Nickel boron complete bcg mpi/hp
Forged T6 aluminum upper lower and ambi charging handle
UTG 15 inch lw keymod free float hand guard
Mil spec adjustable gas block
Melonited gas tube
Strike industries jcomp v2 and s link keymod foregrip
MFT pistol grip MFT minimalist stock MFT magazine
Bipod/grip
Carbine buffer with strike industries flat wire buffer spring
ALG defense QMS trigger
JP enterprises reduced power trigger springs
Nikon p-223 3x fixed power scope
I’ll go back to the range this weekend and shoot some Tulammo and PMC 223 and show you but idk man guess I just got lucky with this build. I shoot expert in the Army so I mean idk man, I guess I’m just a shooter 🤷🏽♂️
Ammo isn't the whole problem...wolf gold and pmc bronze don't go spread that big at 100.... you're barrel don't like it...Daniel defense barrels sucks😮... I've shot both wolf gold and pmc bronze...at 50 they both accurate at half inch spread and at 100 should be between 1-2" spread...not the most accurate...but ill take less than 2"....i use cheap BCA barrel on AR and bolt savage axis...the savage shoots these ammo like it was BTHP Match at 50...same hole... you're barrel Don't like it or your gun Sucks 😮
None of that shit shot very good. Its like it was all steel case ammo on an windy day...
This 100% user error. You can see the shots that were pulled.
Everyone with a camera thinks they are an expert. This ain’t call of duty on your pc. You can’t cheat. Get better at shooting.