I have a Colt pre-ban A2 HBAR in .223. I fired .223 and 5.56 in it for many years before I realized I was on the verge of death, sterility, marriage difficulties, alcohol abuse and serious bodily harm.
Finally, an explanation anyone can wrap their head around. I don't own a .223 rifle at all. I bought my 5.56 understanding that it would fire both rounds without issue. That said, this was the best explanation I have heard yet!!! Thanks Ron!!!
I've loaded a lot of .223 ammunition and I use both 5.56 and .223 brass. I use as much range brass as I can find. I now find .223 brass with crimped primers whereas I used to just find the crimp on 5.56 brass. The brass is the same size and the case capacity is the same or less with the heavier bullets. The overall length of a 60 gr. .223 round and a 77 grain 5.56 round is the same, 2.260, meaning the 5.56 has less room for powder, 27.6 gr. H2O for 60 grain .223 and 26.5 gr. H2O for the 5.56. The barrel of the 5.56 has a tighter rate of twist helping to increase resistance building higher pressure in most cases. The .223 tends to be the faster of the two rounds. However I do not load for the highest velocity my firearm will achieve I load to a velocity my firearm likes. I don't know why so many folks owning black rifles want them to be more powerful or better than a common .223 and aren't just happy with the performance of their firearm.
You are so focused on the cartridge that you don't look at what it is married to. Two parts matched together make the difference depending on the rifle's chamber. The amount of ammo and the personal rifles you have don't say much about that if you don't have 10 barrels specifically made with a .223 Remington chamber and another 10 barrels for 5.56x45mm and testing all sorts of ammo monitoring pressure spikes and damage after a lot more ammo.
Almost. You are correct that the 223Rem and 5.56NATO case dimensions are the same (may vary slightly depending on the manufacturer). However, the military wanted the 223 chamber slightly enlarged to facilitate easier loading and extraction with heavy carbon fouling. The shorter 223 chamber promotes better accuracy; and the enlarged 5.56 chamber promotes increased reliability. As far as pressure, it's hard to compare the two cartridges because the military measures chamber pressure differently than the civilian world. It is best not to fire 5.56 in a 223 chamber, especially very hot loads like M855A1 and tracers.
They are not the same. But not different enough to really matter. Especially in the 55g ball ammo territory. Don't let them talk shit to you Ron! Keep doing what you do!
In the AR platform .223 and 5.56 are interchangeable. The issue of longer bullets is irrelevant due to magazine length. There can be a slight difference in pressure between the two rounds but not enough to be an issue with an AR.
Good explanation. The 5.56 is also rated at a slightly higher pressure, even though some 5.56 ammo isn't always loaded that high. The 5.56 throat is also a little longer and "sloppier" in dimensions, too. That's why the most highest pressured 5.56 ammo, works just fine in a 5.56 chamber/throated rifle..... but might be an overload in a "tighter" chambered .223 rifle. Some of my 223 rifles had problems with military 5.56 ammo, where others did not. None of my 5.56 rifles had ANY problems with ANY ammo.... (.223 or 5.56)
When Ruger released the mini 14 America wasn't using the metric system and 223 Cal was common. But the surplus 5.56mm was released to the public. So it was chambered in 5.56 just read the owners manual 223 (5.56) is designated there.
The guy is mad telling you that you're given fake information guy probably thinks the AR is the ultimate platform for everything 😅. Thank you for the video, Ron.
The AR15 is great for a LOT of applications, but I'm not using it for everything. Definitely not because I want another excuse to buy more guns. No, that would be financially irresponsible...
@@Threegunmaster different uppers for different applications (6 arc, for example for medium sized game, 556 or 300 blk for home defense, 22 for squirrels, etc
I bought a Winchester in .223 for a granddaughter that was a bit recoil sensitive to get her used to centerfire. Only shot .223 out of it. I personally was happy when she was ready to move up to .243. I couldn’t see everyone’s love for .223. Maybe if I’d been in the military but they told me no during Vietnam.
@blackhawk7r221 Many states prohibit centerfire .22 caliber rifles of any chambering from being used to hunt medium or large sized game animals because they are deemed to be marginal at best, but allow them to be used for predators and varmints !! To the best of my knowledge, there are NO states that allow any rimfire rifle to be used for hunting medium or large sized game animals, but they are allowed for hunting small game and varmints, and I agree with both of those restrictions !! Texas requires the use of a 6mm(.243 caliber) or larger for hunting medium or large sized game animals, but allows the use of less powerful rifles to hunt small game animals, predators, and varmints !!
When I checked case capacity of many types of 223/5.56, the only brass that had low capacity was the Norma brass. It was quite a bit less, so keep those separate. If you are using max loads, work them up with one type.
Always proper procedure to sort brass by maker and, if possible, by lot. You can also weigh each piece and sort by +/- 1 grain, although that doesn't take into count the malleability of the brass.
I reload 5.56 and 223 often. Between 5 people in my home using these for target practice and hunting purposes we reload 1000s of them per year. If there is a pressure difference its so tiny we can't see it. However, different brass manufacturing does matter. I have reloaded 223 brass that did have less volume. And that could create a pressure issue. Im sure some 5.56 brass could swing that way to. But as a standard rule, we don't see it as a whole an issue.
I only have that particular caliber in 5.56. I try to cover the most scenarios possible. One such scenario would be having to resupply from abandoned and/or recovered military stock. Not only do I want to be able to handle the heavier bullets, but I want to limit any chance of catastrophic failure.
Yeah, XM193 55gr fmj ammo is fine, but I still wouldn't recommend shooting a 62gr M855 or M855A1 in your 223, otherwise that might create pressure cracks in the chamber overtime.
@@UI_Shaggy05 Nah! The theory is that a long heavy military size bullet may engage the rifling before the cartridge is actually fired, causing extreme pressure in the chamber and shearing off the locking flanges of the bolt. Again, based on published data, this has never happened yet the warnings and myths still persist.
The two cartridges are the same, and only the chambers differ; 5.56 has a longer free bore in the throat and a smoother transition into the rifling to accommodate the higher pressure 5.56 Nato ammunition.
Ok, what makes the NATO ammo have higher pressure? No it’s not the brass thickness. It’s the fact that NATO ammo has 1 to 1.5 gr. More powder depending on bullet and powder used. I think you meant to say, the cases are the same.
That's more of a pliers than wrench, Clint. I'd say make your brass out of either. Just maintain consistency and don't mix, start with light loads and work up watching pressure signs as per usual. Cheers.
I've got 2..223rem. & I have no complaints about either..1 is a 783 Rem..and the other is a 722 Rem.used to be a 222rem mag.But made into a 223rem. Both shoot very will & cheap to shoot..You don't have to looking all over for bullets either..
Hey that was the excellent explanation because I got We Weatherby vanguard in caliber 223 and I tell you the bold action is very strongly built I would say much stronger than AR15 rifles, but I reload only 55 grains Bullets for my princess
People often say the 5.56 is loaded to a higher pressure which is generally not true. For one, you can buy loads with many different pressures for any given calibre. Also, I heard the difference in pressure commonly stated is actually caused by differing measurement methods between 5.56 and .223, and the pressures are actually pretty much the same.
In 2016 I purchased my AR-15, chambered in 5.56 - for two specific reasons. First, no ammo-suitability problem and second it was actually cheaper (at that time, anyway) than a similar model chambered in .223 (win-win!).
Thanks Ron. My AR is 556. Ive shot a ton of .223 and accuracy is so so. Ive always blambed it on my crappy trigger and Im not exactly steady as a rock while I only have one arm. I think Im going to shoot some different 556 from now on and try to dial this thing in.👍👍
Daniel, I'll second your TT recommendation. I have one in a Rem700, the Special (black) set a 2 pounds, hunting rifle. Another in a Rem clone actioned F-Class rifle. The Diamond set at 6 ounces. Excellent target rifle trigger and adjusts from 4 ounces to 32 ounces.
@@danielrouw2593 good to hear about the improvement. Now that you’ve eliminated the trigger problem, you can try other fixes. RUclips is full of Remington rifle tuning vids. Good luck.
Wouldn't you run into the same problem if you handloaded .223 with the heaver bullets? (The 223 would then resemble the 5.56) Like you said the cartridge isn't the problem; it's the chamber.
Has there been any recorded incident ever about a mishap causes from shooting 5.56 in 223 chamber, or 308 in a 7.62 chamber? It would seem it being unsafe is as big of gun myth as any when dealing with a difference of 55-60kpsi in a 100kpsi action
Both Clymer and Pacific Tool & Gauge sell *different* headspace gauges for .223 Remington and 5.56 NATO. Therefore, there must be a difference in headspace tolerances between the 2 cartridges. In contrast, neither company sells separate 7.62x51 NATO headspace gauges.
How in the CZ 223 carbine CZ USA states the you can shoot 556 with no problem. There are some exceptions. However I am a big fan of Ron Spomer and will always listen to his advice. Hmmm. I’ve heard somewhere, “so it is written, so let it be done” Yul Brenner quote😳😳🤔
If your a reloader you should know that 5.56 has up to 1.5 gr more powder with like bullet weights. That’s why it has more velocity. I have never personally seen a .223 that was damaged by 5.56 ammo, but it is slightly higher pressure. We load our 5.56 brass to the max .223 load as it is easier on our expensive rifles. Western Powers manual would by a good investment for any reloader.
@@michaelhennegan9637 Nope. The 223 has 28.41 grs capacity. 5.56 Nato has 28.47 grs capacity. 0.06 grs capacity is negligible, the case dimensions are nearly identical. Loading to different pressure levels is very common among reloaders, not a problem as long as the action is up to the task. Which any bolt action made since the creation of the 223 is. I don't own any AR's, so I cant comment on their strength.
Hi Ron. I think you of all people can answer a question for me. 20 some years ago I had a 17 REM mag rifle. It was a 223 case necked down to 17 cal. I don’t have it anymore but I was just curious do they still produce ammo for it.
Hi Ron do you personally know of anyone having an issue or bad experience of firing a 556 NATO round in a 223 Camber? Not that I plan on trying. Thanks for the great Videos.
Hey Ron...sorry, but another correction. The cases are the same, so no, you can not "drive the neck into a tighter area". The 223 chamber does not have a "tighter" or shorter neck area then the 556 chamber. The problem is the longer bullet of the 556 can engage the 223 rifling so there is no bullet jump which can cause a pressure spike. Also, the longer leade of the 556 chamber allows for more powder then the shorter necked 223 chamber/leade so not only are you "jamming" the bullet you are also increasing the powder charge. Also, as you at least alluded to, 223 and 556 cases are the same dimensionally and do not vary by the 223 or 556 headstamp...they can/do however vary by who manufactures the cases.
I agree with you Ron 100%. But in my case I have a Windom Weaponry AR-15 I bought way back & in the manual it states I can shoot .223 or 5.56x45. I also have one that is in .223 wylde that can shoot both cartridges. You just have to know what your manufacturer specifies in your manual.
The 223 dose not have as much free bore as the 5.56 but ruger changed the mini to use the 5.56 even though they didn't change the barrel stamp the best way to tell is to look at the barrel closely the early 223 only rifle was much smaller between the breach and the gas block.
The mini14 target model is .223 only. From what I understand, the others that are stamped .223 are actually 5.56 as you stated. I just wanted to point out that the target model (at least a run of them) is the outlier.
@@letsdothis9063 the first few years that the mini was produced it was chambered for 223 then the military adopted the 556 and ruger rechamberd them to run the 556
Vietnam-era 5.56 was loaded with 55 grain fmj bullets. They work fine in 223 actions. 223 55g cartridges work in 5.56 chambers. Late versions are up to 70 grain and will not work in 223 chambers.
Oh gosh. The difference between .223 and 5.56 is that the 5.56 has a longer throat and between 1 and 1.5 gr. More powder than a .223. You can verify this in the Western Rivers Reloading manual. The most logical reason I’ve heard for the longer throat is that is was designed that way in order to shoot tracers. Tracer bullets are usually longer than non tracer bullets. The COAL in an AR style rifle is in large part limited by the length of the magazine.
Just discovered your Chanel and thoroughly enjoyed your explanation, id previously been told that the .223 was introduced to allow troops tol "retrieve" ammunition from deceased enemy
I imagine for handloading it would be a good idea to compare the water capacities of cases for sorting purposes. And of course 5.56 brass will have to have primer crimps removed. I always heard it was slight neck and chamber diffs, and slightly higher max pressure spec in the 5 56. But i assume manufacturers probably load both to the same pressure What are those big long things against the wall, behind you in your left? I have noticed them un several videos. At first i thought they were elephant leg bones or something, but now i am not sure. Now they look a little fuzzy
You must be watching on a small screen, Troy. Those long things are a red fox pelt and coyote pelt. The only other long things I can see are the old barn boards making up the background wall. Some are lighter than others.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast yeah, on my phone. Computer is way too noisy. Need a new one. I figured out in another video that they were pelts. I love the studio with the barn wood and all the accoutrements
I'd like to know just who is having interchangeability problems. Who is it, which guns is it, which ammo is it ? Just who is having these problems. I'd like to find a commercially available (last 50 years) rifle in 223 which doesn't have a long enough throat. Just who is it that's having problems ? Answer : No one. Anyone who is doing something "special" knows not to put long bullets in short chambers. So again, Just who is having problems ?
You hit the nail on the head Ron. The measured pressure stats are a little different between the .223 and 5.56, but the biggest difference there is method of measuring pressure. I believe the cup web in the 5.56 is a little thicker for standing up to full auto abuse. The big issue is free throat. The biggest offender is military tracer. In a typical .223 free throat, its up against the rifling, causing pressure issues.
And yet many bench rest competitors get their best accuracy with handloads that exceed manufactures OAL because they measure to the bullet ogive which extends the bullet into the lands of their rifles. It's best to know your rifles FB and measure any 5.56 rds you intend to shoot then you will know if you might have a pressure issue. Same with any handloads you may load.
I hear what you are saying about the .223 Rem vs the 5.56 yes some throat differences. Now with all the people out there and a portion of them being Stupid People, How many .223 Rem or 5.56 Rifles have you heard of blown UP. Thats my question ? Because I have heard of Zero
Yes. I posed this question to one supposed expert and got blocked - "Just who is having problems with interchangeability ?" No one could answer. Just about every commercial 223 rifle has a long enough throat for any military or civilian loading. Added to this that most military ammo is LOWER pressure and LESS velocity than the equivalent sporting rounds. Who is having problems ? no one.
I don’t think it has anything to do with longer bullets. The original 5.56x45 for the military was the m193 which is 55 grain. In the Western Powders manual, 5.56 loads max out at over 62,000 psi, and use more powder than 223 rem, which maxes at 55,000. 5.56 is definitely loaded hotter, but with it’s longer throat results in lower pressure than the bigger charge would have in a 223 chamber.
Hey Mr Ron. What ammo is best for .223 Wylde, I have an Anderson Manufacturing AM-15 with a 16" Barrel 1:8 twist. I also installed an accu-wedge due to the accuracy being all over. $2 fix tightened groups significantly. TIA
The best ammo is whatever one your particular firearm does best with. Being a 1:8 twist it'll be a hit/miss if it'll handle 77gr + projectiles. Give it a try though.
Measure the cartridges and you'll most likely find them to be the same length. They will be until you get into much heavier bullets. The main thing to consider is that most .223 barrels have slower rifling and can't stabilize bullets beyond 60 grains very well.
I don’t disagree with any of what you said, but I have two thoughts 1) I have never seen any documented case where someone had a problem from firing a 5.56 in a 223 chambered gun. Perhaps I’ve been willfully blind. I can’t believe it hasn’t happened with the popularity of this caliber. 2) Solid copper bullets are becoming increasingly popular in all calibers. It seems to me this would cause all kinds of issues because a copper bullet with the same weight as a led bullet are going to be longer. So, there must be something more to the story than a 70 grain length 556 bullet in a 223 chambered gun. What’s going to happen if someone puts a longer copper 223 bullet in this same gun? Are we going to tell people not to shoot copper bullets?
My ar180 was made for the 55 gr bullet. Stoner put this up for military adoption. I believe the 556 was later in military service not right away. Not sure but i believe the first m16 was also designed for a 55. Or 223 rem.
Ron i think you missed one of the most important parts about the 223 REM. The earlier rifles that were chambered in 223 were a 1:14 twist which was great for that 40 to 55 grain bullet, but wasn’t great for heavier bullets. The military changed the twist to a 1:12 for the M16 and the newer AR15 after the adoption of the 556. The reason the 556 is not the same as the the 223 is because when the military adopted it they had no cases or rounds to manufacture it there at Lake City. Also they didn’t have the experimental powder that Colt was using in their trail ammo, which was in short supply. So they kinda guessed at the dimensions of the case to as close as they could with spent cases. This is the reason why there are a slight variation with 223 REM and 556. Later the twist was increased to handle the SS109 at 62grains. Ruger was the only one that felt that a 1:10 twist was the proper twist to handle all the bullets out there, which is the reason the first gen Mini 14 were rifled that way. Now there where some 60 grain bullets out there but only for customer reloads.
Thanks for your insights, John, but I have to challenge you on your assumption the military had no 223 Rem cases to work with. The 223 Rem. emerged from the military's search for a new battle round and rifle to replace the 7.62 NATO. Remington just saw the potential and adopted the cartridge before the military officially signed off on it. Dimensions are identical. Actual military brass is often thicker than some commercial brass and most military rifles have a faster twist rate which can increase MAP slightly. The biggest difference is the 5.56 NATO is rated for MAP of 62,366 psi while the 223 Rem. is at 55,000 psi. 223/5.56 went through many changes over the early years, but both started with 1:14 twist, I believe. The military increased this to 1:12 to stabilize 55-gr. bullets, later to 1:9 or 1:10 depending on the NATO country's rifles. Some were even 1:7 twist to stabilize long specialty bullets like tracers. There are probably many other twists and turns in this story, but you are right about the early Ruger twist. Cheers.
I have read that some manufacturers of 223 rifles, stamped 223, actually hybridized their chambers to offset concerns of shooting 556. Do you know of this? Mini 14 excluded, due to being stated in manual that you can shoot 556.
I’ve heard the difference in pressure is actually because of differences in how they measure the pressures between NATO standards and normal commercial ammo.
When I was looking at rifles, I was told if I had to choose, get one that 's chambered for 223 and 5.56 NATO, not just a a 5.56 NATO. They said this was because that while the 5.56 generates a higher chamber pressure due to a larger powder load, but due to being a NATO round this is standardized and will never exceed the pressure and powder load. But the .223 has no upper limit standard and can theoretically, either by hand-loading or from the factory, have a larger than NATO powder load and therefore generate more pressure. So ultimately they said to go with the .223 chambered rifle as they were beefier due to the chance of potentially seeing pressures and powder loads greater than normal and even exceeding the NATO. That was overly complicated to me, so I went with a Winchester XPR chambered in .270 Winchester.
I solved the "problem". I make the 223 and the 5.56 brass the same length as the reloading books call for the 223 case length. I have been shooting for years and have had NO PROBLEMS.
I have a Mini-14 and I stocked up 1000 rounds of 556 before I read an article that said Not to shoot 556 in a 223 rifle, so I kept the 1000 rounds of 556 in a 50cal ammo can till I finally got an AR-15. Of course I still stock up on 223, but I also stock up on 556. I should be able to fire 223 in my AR because it is a 223 Wylde. Be prepared and be safe my friends.
You do realize "All Ruger Mini-14 models are chambered in both . 223 Remington and 5.56×45mm NATO ammunition except the Target Rifle variant (which is . 223 only)."
Same here. My mini-14 is stamped .223. so I talked to an engineer at Ruger who told me it's perfectly safe to shoot .556.. don't take my word for it, anyone can call Ruger
Generally, the main difference between the two is HOW the pressures are measured. The civilian governing body measures one way while the government measures another. I have fired 5.56 ammo from a 233 bolt action savage for years and never had an issue. Maybe it's luck.
Except the heavy bullet 5.56 is a modern loading. The loads when originally adopted ( late 60's) were 55 and 62 grains, not modern heavy bullets and fast twist barrels.
If you are generally pleased with the typical accuracy from M193 or M855 from your M4 or AR-15A4, then have fun with it but know this, the longish free bore will indeed preclude accuracy. So. If your intent is to develop marksmanship from the AR platform, such as in US Service Rifle Competition, your best step forward is replacement of the 5.56 barrel with a match grade .223 chambered barrel. And then learn to hand load for it. With some marksmanship training and a little practice you will see your 3-4 MOA AR become a .5 MOA gun. Creds: Military Rifle Instructor assisting the USAMU deliver SDM, TTT, and SAFS Training.
Thabnks for the experienced advice, Charles. I would quibble with your use of "preclude" accuracy to describe the effects of a long throat. Wby. rifles have long been throated long yet often deliver sub MOA accuracy. Many of my rifles deliver sub-MOA with bullet seated well off the lands. Yes, it is distinctly possible that one would have more challenge developing a super accurate load using shorter bullets in a chamber throated for extra long bullets, but not impossible. Cheers and thanks for your service in our military.
Hey Ron , I would like your opinion on using the 223 for deer , I have a couple of daughters that want to hunt and are recoil sensitive , any thoughts on ammunition, shot placement , will it penetrate a shoulder on a deer ?
55 to 60-gr. bullets, tight behind the shoulder. Most suffice if you don't hit major bones or muscle mass. Broadside, behind shoulder no farther than 200 yards. Deadly. I like the 62-gr. Federal Fusion, but most work.
I have probably loaded millions of both and use them interchangeably in both rifles. Overall length is the thing. And as long as that right it really doesn't matter, and if that's too long it won't go in the magazine and function anyway. Longer bullets just need seated deeper which of course changes the powder charge and that's where the pressure difference is. As far as case capacity, I've seen military brass that has more than civilian .223 brass, if you don't load to the red line, I doubt anyone will ever have a problem with either. And load to the correct OAL. The number one pain in the butt with loading .223/.556 is the crimped in primers. Very time consuming.
You are thinking with an AR mindset. They are cut long. A bolt gun reamed to true .223 will force feed a 5.56, but often won’t extract because you bury the neck brass into the lands. That tiny neck length difference between a .223 and a 5.56 means something. AR’s are deliberately sloppy for reliability. I’ve reamed plenty, and often get a deer in the headlight look when I ask them which leade or neck diameter they want. Hell, I’m looking at eight different .223 reamers on my wall right now.
I have 3 .223 Remington. They all say .223 on the barrel. Not one says 5.56. I shoot surplus and new .223 and 5.56 with no difference noticed. I have some old 5.56 55grain FMJ surplus ammo made in Thailand, made in the 1980s. That shoots so well. It is the most accurate of all the ammo I have shot. All my rifles in .223 are bolt guns.
They are the same cartridge because the ammo companies swap the cases and name constantly. They are used interchangeably in manufacturing. Is there a difference? Only in pedantics. If somebody is still harping on this they need more important things in their life.
5.56 is factory loaded at a higher pressure than civi 223. Thats all. Some handloaders have found LC brass to be thicker than some commercial brass. That is all. If you are worried, dont fire 5.56 in a 223 chamber.
I don't shoot military type ammo out of my varmit rifle, and I don't shoot light, 40 grain tnt out of a semi auto rifle. Most common, modern hunting/sporting rifles are chambered for, and the barrel twist rate, is for 55 grain ammo. High twist rates and fast bullet speeds don't work, they come apart from the force, and heavy bullets with low twist rates tumble in flight. Balance is the key. Look up the specs on .222, 221 Fireball etc. vs m855. The bullet weight is the key.
Guys (meaning everyone including Ron), I'm looking for a bolt action rifle that will fire both 5.56 and .223 for the wife, plinking and small game. Give me a list to look through.
I tend to find that 5.56 guys are experts about everything, and will tell the guy shooting a ".223 Wylde" or a ".223 Ackley improved" or a ".223 Match" chambered rifle at the local range how it is not rated to handle the pressure of the 5.56.
I have a Colt pre-ban A2 HBAR in .223. I fired .223 and 5.56 in it for many years before I realized I was on the verge of death, sterility, marriage difficulties, alcohol abuse and serious bodily harm.
How dangerous for you and your family. I hope your children didn't have birth defects because of your carelessness.
Oh! The humanity!
@@russellkeeling4387 😅
@@dr.froghopper6711 😮
Yeah me too I've been shooting 5.56 in my Colt AR SP1 marked .223 since 1980! Oh the horror! LOL!
Finally, an explanation anyone can wrap their head around.
I don't own a .223 rifle at all. I bought my 5.56 understanding that it would fire both rounds without issue.
That said, this was the best explanation I have heard yet!!!
Thanks Ron!!!
Why get either?? I went .223 wylde 1:7 twist… shoots anything you can load!!!
@@danielcurtis1434 I built my rifles before the 223 Wylde came available. I would not change a thing.
@@donl4914 so being able to shoot .223 accurately while also having a 5.56 chamber doesn’t interest you at all???
None of my business… You do you!!!
@@danielcurtis1434 .223 50 gr Norma Frangable hits sub moa from my AR. I'm not going to complain about that.
They cut .223 chambers the same these days. This is only a possible issue if you have a VERY early rifle in .223.
I've loaded a lot of .223 ammunition and I use both 5.56 and .223 brass. I use as much range brass as I can find. I now find .223 brass with crimped primers whereas I used to just find the crimp on 5.56 brass. The brass is the same size and the case capacity is the same or less with the heavier bullets. The overall length of a 60 gr. .223 round and a 77 grain 5.56 round is the same, 2.260, meaning the 5.56 has less room for powder, 27.6 gr. H2O for 60 grain .223 and 26.5 gr. H2O for the 5.56. The barrel of the 5.56 has a tighter rate of twist helping to increase resistance building higher pressure in most cases. The .223 tends to be the faster of the two rounds. However I do not load for the highest velocity my firearm will achieve I load to a velocity my firearm likes. I don't know why so many folks owning black rifles want them to be more powerful or better than a common .223 and aren't just happy with the performance of their firearm.
I agree with all you said, Ron is full of du-du!
You are so focused on the cartridge that you don't look at what it is married to.
Two parts matched together make the difference depending on the rifle's chamber.
The amount of ammo and the personal rifles you have don't say much about that if you don't have 10 barrels specifically made with a .223 Remington chamber and another 10 barrels for 5.56x45mm and testing all sorts of ammo monitoring pressure spikes and damage after a lot more ammo.
Thanks, Ron. I bought a .223 Wylde upper which seems to solve the problem.
Almost. You are correct that the 223Rem and 5.56NATO case dimensions are the same (may vary slightly depending on the manufacturer). However, the military wanted the 223 chamber slightly enlarged to facilitate easier loading and extraction with heavy carbon fouling. The shorter 223 chamber promotes better accuracy; and the enlarged 5.56 chamber promotes increased reliability. As far as pressure, it's hard to compare the two cartridges because the military measures chamber pressure differently than the civilian world. It is best not to fire 5.56 in a 223 chamber, especially very hot loads like M855A1 and tracers.
They are not the same. But not different enough to really matter. Especially in the 55g ball ammo territory. Don't let them talk shit to you Ron! Keep doing what you do!
Wrong! It's the rifle chambering and metallurgy that's different. The cartridge cases can be loaded for either.
@@ronaldjohnson1474 Sure jan.
Just stay away from factory 5.56 loads in a .223 target or match chamber : )
In the AR platform .223 and 5.56 are interchangeable. The issue of longer bullets is irrelevant due to magazine length. There can be a slight difference in pressure between the two rounds but not enough to be an issue with an AR.
Excellent point.
I do reload.
No one ever discusses the fact that the magazine also comes into play in reloading.
The 223 Wylde chambering mitigates the interchangability issue between 5.56 NATO and
.223 Remington.
This!
Just get a 5.56 chambering they need to do away with the .223 chambering but have the ammo so theres no confusion whatsoever
Yes, but he wasn’t talking about the 223Wylde. He was referring specifically to 556 and 223.
@@majinbroly7886It will only confuse the wilfully ignorant.
Good explanation. The 5.56 is also rated at a slightly higher pressure, even though some 5.56 ammo isn't always loaded that high.
The 5.56 throat is also a little longer and "sloppier" in dimensions, too.
That's why the most highest pressured 5.56 ammo, works just fine in a 5.56 chamber/throated rifle..... but might be an overload in a "tighter" chambered .223 rifle.
Some of my 223 rifles had problems with military 5.56 ammo, where others did not.
None of my 5.56 rifles had ANY problems with ANY ammo.... (.223 or 5.56)
Wanted to say something but you did all...as always!! Thanks!!
Absolutely 100% correct and sound advice!✌️
Thanks, I've seen a lot of attempts to explain .223 vs 5.56mm, and this was probably the best.
Great video Ron. I’ve shot both in my Mini-14 but always used 55 grain bullets since I’ve only used it for varmit hunting.
Yup.. the Ranch says both.. but the target version says 223 only.
Ruger secretly gave the chamber neck a bit of extra length knowing that some vets will run liberated 5.56 through it.
@@blackhawk7r221 I did not know that. I like how you use liberated…
@@nmelkhunter1 "I like how you use liberated…" I also lol.
When Ruger released the mini 14 America wasn't using the metric system and 223 Cal was common. But the surplus 5.56mm was released to the public. So it was chambered in 5.56 just read the owners manual 223 (5.56) is designated there.
The guy is mad telling you that you're given fake information guy probably thinks the AR is the ultimate platform for everything 😅. Thank you for the video, Ron.
Best way is to just get them both and if you can afford to order the A-Team stock for the mini
The AR15 is great for a LOT of applications, but I'm not using it for everything. Definitely not because I want another excuse to buy more guns. No, that would be financially irresponsible...
What you mean they aren't lol like same people that thing the 6.5 creedmoor is magical
@@Threegunmaster different uppers for different applications (6 arc, for example for medium sized game, 556 or 300 blk for home defense, 22 for squirrels, etc
@@TheGunNerd I was being sarcastic I love ARs I've 6.5 grendel, 6mm arc ,300 blackout, multiple 556 and 450 bushmaster
I bought a Winchester in .223 for a granddaughter that was a bit recoil sensitive to get her used to centerfire. Only shot .223 out of it. I personally was happy when she was ready to move up to .243. I couldn’t see everyone’s love for .223. Maybe if I’d been in the military but they told me no during Vietnam.
243 is a better round than 223 by far. Depending on the use I think.
Good choice for a starter. After all, it’s only a deer, and they sure aren’t hard to kill.
@blackhawk7r221
Many states prohibit centerfire .22 caliber rifles of any chambering from being used to hunt medium or large sized game animals because they are deemed to be marginal at best, but allow them to be used for predators and varmints !!
To the best of my knowledge, there are NO states that allow any rimfire rifle to be used for hunting medium or large sized game animals, but they are allowed for hunting small game and varmints, and I agree with both of those restrictions !!
Texas requires the use of a 6mm(.243 caliber) or larger for hunting medium or large sized game animals, but allows the use of less powerful rifles to hunt small game animals, predators, and varmints !!
When I checked case capacity of many types of 223/5.56, the only brass that had low capacity was the Norma brass. It was quite a bit less, so keep those separate. If you are using max loads, work them up with one type.
Always proper procedure to sort brass by maker and, if possible, by lot. You can also weigh each piece and sort by +/- 1 grain, although that doesn't take into count the malleability of the brass.
I reload 5.56 and 223 often. Between 5 people in my home using these for target practice and hunting purposes we reload 1000s of them per year. If there is a pressure difference its so tiny we can't see it. However, different brass manufacturing does matter.
I have reloaded 223 brass that did have less volume. And that could create a pressure issue. Im sure some 5.56 brass could swing that way to. But as a standard rule, we don't see it as a whole an issue.
I only have that particular caliber in 5.56. I try to cover the most scenarios possible. One such scenario would be having to resupply from abandoned and/or recovered military stock. Not only do I want to be able to handle the heavier bullets, but I want to limit any chance of catastrophic failure.
Very well said Ron! I think you cleared the air .
My AR says multi caliber. 5.56 on the barrel.
Wow !!! I did not know that!!!! Thanks a million for the heads up!!!
Fun conversation. Thank you.
I shoot 55gr 556 all day long in my 223. Never saw any evidence of over pressure. Never heard of a 223 failure from shooting 556.
Yeah, XM193 55gr fmj ammo is fine, but I still wouldn't recommend shooting a 62gr M855 or M855A1 in your 223, otherwise that might create pressure cracks in the chamber overtime.
@@UI_Shaggy05 Nah! The theory is that a long heavy military size bullet may engage the rifling before the cartridge is actually fired, causing extreme pressure in the chamber and shearing off the locking flanges of the bolt. Again, based on published data, this has never happened yet the warnings and myths still persist.
The two cartridges are the same, and only the chambers differ; 5.56 has a longer free bore in the throat and a smoother transition into the rifling to accommodate the higher pressure 5.56 Nato ammunition.
Ok, what makes the NATO ammo have higher pressure? No it’s not the brass thickness. It’s the fact that NATO ammo has 1 to 1.5 gr. More powder depending on bullet and powder used. I think you meant to say, the cases are the same.
@@michaelhennegan9637 When I said they were the same I was referring to their dimensions.
Ok Ron here's a wrench in the gears. Making 300 Blackout brass from 223 brass or 5.56 Brass which is plenty full. Your thoughts
That's more of a pliers than wrench, Clint. I'd say make your brass out of either. Just maintain consistency and don't mix, start with light loads and work up watching pressure signs as per usual. Cheers.
I've got 2..223rem. & I have no complaints about either..1 is a 783 Rem..and the other is a 722 Rem.used to be a 222rem mag.But made into a 223rem. Both shoot very will & cheap to shoot..You don't have to looking all over for bullets either..
You nailed it. Finally someone made this easy to explain. It only took 50 years!
Hey that was the excellent explanation because I got We
Weatherby vanguard in caliber 223 and I tell you the bold action is very strongly built I would say much stronger than AR15 rifles, but I reload only 55 grains Bullets for my princess
People often say the 5.56 is loaded to a higher pressure which is generally not true. For one, you can buy loads with many different pressures for any given calibre. Also, I heard the difference in pressure commonly stated is actually caused by differing measurement methods between 5.56 and .223, and the pressures are actually pretty much the same.
In 2016 I purchased my AR-15, chambered in 5.56 - for two specific reasons. First, no ammo-suitability problem and second it was actually cheaper (at that time, anyway) than a similar model chambered in .223 (win-win!).
Good explanation
Thanks Ron. My AR is 556. Ive shot a ton of .223 and accuracy is so so. Ive always blambed it on my crappy trigger and Im not exactly steady as a rock while I only have one arm. I think Im going to shoot some different 556 from now on and try to dial this thing in.👍👍
Daniel, I'll second your TT recommendation. I have one in a Rem700, the Special (black) set a 2 pounds, hunting rifle.
Another in a Rem clone actioned F-Class rifle. The Diamond set at 6 ounces. Excellent target rifle trigger and adjusts from 4 ounces to 32 ounces.
@@danielrouw2593 good to hear about the improvement. Now that you’ve eliminated the trigger problem, you can try other fixes. RUclips is full of Remington rifle tuning vids. Good luck.
5.56 can go into a .223 Wylde firearm, which is not very common but they are out there.
It is much more common than you think.
So now we know to seat those heavier projectiles a bit deeper to back them off the lands. I'll be looking for signs of over pressure and other issues.
Wouldn't you run into the same problem if you handloaded .223 with the heaver bullets? (The 223 would then resemble the 5.56) Like you said the cartridge isn't the problem; it's the chamber.
Has there been any recorded incident ever about a mishap causes from shooting 5.56 in 223 chamber, or 308 in a 7.62 chamber? It would seem it being unsafe is as big of gun myth as any when dealing with a difference of 55-60kpsi in a 100kpsi action
Excellent information!
Both Clymer and Pacific Tool & Gauge sell *different* headspace gauges for .223 Remington and 5.56 NATO. Therefore, there must be a difference in headspace tolerances between the 2 cartridges. In contrast, neither company sells separate 7.62x51 NATO headspace gauges.
Very well said. Excellent explanation.
How in the CZ 223 carbine CZ USA states the you can shoot 556 with no problem. There are some exceptions. However I am a big fan of Ron Spomer and will always listen to his advice. Hmmm. I’ve heard somewhere, “so it is written, so let it be done” Yul Brenner quote😳😳🤔
Whatever happened to the Lyman manual? It was the best reloading manual I had ever used.
I'm a reloader, therefore there is NO difference.
If your a reloader you should know that 5.56 has up to 1.5 gr more powder with like bullet weights. That’s why it has more velocity. I have never personally seen a .223 that was damaged by 5.56 ammo, but it is slightly higher pressure. We load our 5.56 brass to the max .223 load as it is easier on our expensive rifles. Western Powers manual would by a good investment for any reloader.
@@michaelhennegan9637 Nope. The 223 has 28.41 grs capacity. 5.56 Nato has 28.47 grs capacity. 0.06 grs capacity is negligible, the case dimensions are nearly identical. Loading to different pressure levels is very common among reloaders, not a problem as long as the action is up to the task. Which any bolt action made since the creation of the 223 is. I don't own any AR's, so I cant comment on their strength.
Hi Ron. I think you of all people can answer a question for me. 20 some years ago I had a 17 REM mag rifle. It was a 223 case necked down to 17 cal. I don’t have it anymore but I was just curious do they still produce ammo for it.
Hi Ron do you personally know of anyone having an issue or bad experience of firing a 556 NATO round in a 223 Camber?
Not that I plan on trying. Thanks for the great Videos.
I do not.
Well said Sir.
Kinda sounds like the the 308 vs 7.62 NATO issues
Yep.
But Nato made the 7.62x51 less powerful for use in automatic rifles.
308 was originally made for bolt action with more power.
Hey Ron...sorry, but another correction. The cases are the same, so no, you can not "drive the neck into a tighter area". The 223 chamber does not have a "tighter" or shorter neck area then the 556 chamber. The problem is the longer bullet of the 556 can engage the 223 rifling so there is no bullet jump which can cause a pressure spike. Also, the longer leade of the 556 chamber allows for more powder then the shorter necked 223 chamber/leade so not only are you "jamming" the bullet you are also increasing the powder charge. Also, as you at least alluded to, 223 and 556 cases are the same dimensionally and do not vary by the 223 or 556 headstamp...they can/do however vary by who manufactures the cases.
I agree with you Ron 100%. But in my case I have a Windom Weaponry AR-15 I bought way back & in the manual it states I can shoot .223 or 5.56x45. I also have one that is in .223 wylde that can shoot both cartridges. You just have to know what your manufacturer specifies in your manual.
The 223 dose not have as much free bore as the 5.56 but ruger changed the mini to use the 5.56 even though they didn't change the barrel stamp the best way to tell is to look at the barrel closely the early 223 only rifle was much smaller between the breach and the gas block.
The mini14 target model is .223 only. From what I understand, the others that are stamped .223 are actually 5.56 as you stated. I just wanted to point out that the target model (at least a run of them) is the outlier.
@Let'sDoThis Good to know. I contacted ruger on this and they did advise the use of either but it's nice to know this piece if info about the outlier.
@@letsdothis9063 the first few years that the mini was produced it was chambered for 223 then the military adopted the 556 and ruger rechamberd them to run the 556
@@mikebeddingfield2144 It has always been chambered for the .223 caliber. Only the target was chambered for the .223 Remington.
Vietnam-era 5.56 was loaded with 55 grain fmj bullets. They work fine in 223 actions. 223 55g cartridges work in 5.56 chambers. Late versions are up to 70 grain and will not work in 223 chambers.
Oh gosh. The difference between .223 and 5.56 is that the 5.56 has a longer throat and between 1 and 1.5 gr. More powder than a .223. You can verify this in the Western Rivers Reloading manual. The most logical reason I’ve heard for the longer throat is that is was designed that way in order to shoot tracers. Tracer bullets are usually longer than non tracer bullets. The COAL in an AR style rifle is in large part limited by the length of the magazine.
Just discovered your Chanel and thoroughly enjoyed your explanation, id previously been told that the .223 was introduced to allow troops tol "retrieve" ammunition from deceased enemy
I imagine for handloading it would be a good idea to compare the water capacities of cases for sorting purposes. And of course 5.56 brass will have to have primer crimps removed. I always heard it was slight neck and chamber diffs, and slightly higher max pressure spec in the 5 56. But i assume manufacturers probably load both to the same pressure
What are those big long things against the wall, behind you in your left? I have noticed them un several videos. At first i thought they were elephant leg bones or something, but now i am not sure. Now they look a little fuzzy
You must be watching on a small screen, Troy. Those long things are a red fox pelt and coyote pelt. The only other long things I can see are the old barn boards making up the background wall. Some are lighter than others.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors-Podcast yeah, on my phone. Computer is way too noisy. Need a new one. I figured out in another video that they were pelts. I love the studio with the barn wood and all the accoutrements
I'd like to know just who is having interchangeability problems. Who is it, which guns is it, which ammo is it ? Just who is having these problems. I'd like to find a commercially available (last 50 years) rifle in 223 which doesn't have a long enough throat. Just who is it that's having problems ?
Answer : No one. Anyone who is doing something "special" knows not to put long bullets in short chambers. So again, Just who is having problems ?
You hit the nail on the head Ron. The measured pressure stats are a little different between the .223 and 5.56, but the biggest difference there is method of measuring pressure. I believe the cup web in the 5.56 is a little thicker for standing up to full auto abuse. The big issue is free throat. The biggest offender is military tracer. In a typical .223 free throat, its up against the rifling, causing pressure issues.
And yet many bench rest competitors get their best accuracy with handloads that exceed manufactures OAL because they measure to the bullet ogive which extends the bullet into the lands of their rifles. It's best to know your rifles FB and measure any 5.56 rds you intend to shoot then you will know if you might have a pressure issue. Same with any handloads you may load.
Yes a very big issue w wylde chambered,,,223s,,,thanks for expounding the issue
I use all 556 brass in my hand loads for my AR and my bolt
I can't believe people are still talking about that
I hear what you are saying about the .223 Rem vs the 5.56 yes some throat differences. Now with all the people out there and a portion of them being Stupid People, How many .223 Rem or 5.56 Rifles have you heard of blown UP. Thats my question ? Because I have heard of Zero
Yes. I posed this question to one supposed expert and got blocked - "Just who is having problems with interchangeability ?" No one could answer.
Just about every commercial 223 rifle has a long enough throat for any military or civilian loading. Added to this that most military ammo is LOWER pressure and LESS velocity than the equivalent sporting rounds. Who is having problems ? no one.
@@adelarsen9776 they break mini 14s but no, don't blow up
None, non issue. Just some blow hard puffing out his chest.
@@thatbme35 nonsense. I have one and it cycles both just fine, same with my su16 rifle.
@@adelarsen9776 exactly.
I don’t think it has anything to do with longer bullets. The original 5.56x45 for the military was the m193 which is 55 grain. In the Western Powders manual, 5.56 loads max out at over 62,000 psi, and use more powder than 223 rem, which maxes at 55,000. 5.56 is definitely loaded hotter, but with it’s longer throat results in lower pressure than the bigger charge would have in a 223 chamber.
Hey Mr Ron. What ammo is best for .223 Wylde, I have an Anderson Manufacturing AM-15 with a 16" Barrel 1:8 twist. I also installed an accu-wedge due to the accuracy being all over. $2 fix tightened groups significantly. TIA
The best ammo is whatever one your particular firearm does best with. Being a 1:8 twist it'll be a hit/miss if it'll handle 77gr + projectiles. Give it a try though.
@@carfvallrightsreservedwith6649 Thank You!
I've heard that you shouldn't shoot 5.56 in custom chambered 223's with short throats.
Measure the cartridges and you'll most likely find them to be the same length. They will be until you get into much heavier bullets. The main thing to consider is that most .223 barrels have slower rifling and can't stabilize bullets beyond 60 grains very well.
I don’t disagree with any of what you said, but I have two thoughts 1) I have never seen any documented case where someone had a problem from firing a 5.56 in a 223 chambered gun. Perhaps I’ve been willfully blind. I can’t believe it hasn’t happened with the popularity of this caliber. 2) Solid copper bullets are becoming increasingly popular in all calibers. It seems to me this would cause all kinds of issues because a copper bullet with the same weight as a led bullet are going to be longer. So, there must be something more to the story than a 70 grain length 556 bullet in a 223 chambered gun. What’s going to happen if someone puts a longer copper 223 bullet in this same gun? Are we going to tell people not to shoot copper bullets?
You didn't claim that they were the same in your prior videos.
I wonder if you can even get a true short and tight freebore 223 in a production rifle anymore?
My ar180 was made for the 55 gr bullet. Stoner put this up for military adoption. I believe the 556 was later in military service not right away. Not sure but i believe the first m16 was also designed for a 55. Or 223 rem.
I have a gunsmith question can you have a 223 barrel reamed out to take nato rounds?
Should I choose to buy a rifle, I’d strive for the 5.56 chambering.
.223 Wylde exists
But in practical terms, just who is having a problem ?
Ron i think you missed one of the most important parts about the 223 REM. The earlier rifles that were chambered in 223 were a 1:14 twist which was great for that 40 to 55 grain bullet, but wasn’t great for heavier bullets. The military changed the twist to a 1:12 for the M16 and the newer AR15 after the adoption of the 556. The reason the 556 is not the same as the the 223 is because when the military adopted it they had no cases or rounds to manufacture it there at Lake City. Also they didn’t have the experimental powder that Colt was using in their trail ammo, which was in short supply. So they kinda guessed at the dimensions of the case to as close as they could with spent cases. This is the reason why there are a slight variation with 223 REM and 556.
Later the twist was increased to handle the SS109 at 62grains. Ruger was the only one that felt that a 1:10 twist was the proper twist to handle all the bullets out there, which is the reason the first gen Mini 14 were rifled that way. Now there where some 60 grain bullets out there but only for customer reloads.
Thanks for your insights, John, but I have to challenge you on your assumption the military had no 223 Rem cases to work with. The 223 Rem. emerged from the military's search for a new battle round and rifle to replace the 7.62 NATO. Remington just saw the potential and adopted the cartridge before the military officially signed off on it. Dimensions are identical. Actual military brass is often thicker than some commercial brass and most military rifles have a faster twist rate which can increase MAP slightly. The biggest difference is the 5.56 NATO is rated for MAP of 62,366 psi while the 223 Rem. is at 55,000 psi. 223/5.56 went through many changes over the early years, but both started with 1:14 twist, I believe. The military increased this to 1:12 to stabilize 55-gr. bullets, later to 1:9 or 1:10 depending on the NATO country's rifles. Some were even 1:7 twist to stabilize long specialty bullets like tracers. There are probably many other twists and turns in this story, but you are right about the early Ruger twist. Cheers.
@@ronspomer4366 here is some interesting insight www.bobrohrer.com/sea_stories/saga_of_the_m16_part_2.pdf
I have read that some manufacturers of 223 rifles, stamped 223, actually hybridized their chambers to offset concerns of shooting 556. Do you know of this? Mini 14 excluded, due to being stated in manual that you can shoot 556.
Mixed brass actually shot a better group in a handloder article in the magazine on tge 308 only change was the brasd not powder or primer
Ron love your show? I have a question about your hat where did you purchase it and will it look good on me as a does you??
Ive always thought any extra pressures would have just slung the bullet faster instead of dismantling the gun.
Another important difference is the 5.56 is loaded to higher pressures than the 223 Rem. 62,000 psi vs 55,000 psi.
I’ve heard the difference in pressure is actually because of differences in how they measure the pressures between NATO standards and normal commercial ammo.
When I was looking at rifles, I was told if I had to choose, get one that 's chambered for 223 and 5.56 NATO, not just a a 5.56 NATO.
They said this was because that while the 5.56 generates a higher chamber pressure due to a larger powder load, but due to being a NATO round this is standardized and will never exceed the pressure and powder load. But the .223 has no upper limit standard and can theoretically, either by hand-loading or from the factory, have a larger than NATO powder load and therefore generate more pressure.
So ultimately they said to go with the .223 chambered rifle as they were beefier due to the chance of potentially seeing pressures and powder loads greater than normal and even exceeding the NATO.
That was overly complicated to me, so I went with a Winchester XPR chambered in .270 Winchester.
I solved the "problem". I make the 223 and the 5.56 brass the same length as the reloading books call for the 223 case length. I have been shooting for years and have had NO PROBLEMS.
Classic example of why I exclusively watch this channel by accident.
But how many people have had a problem shooting 5.56 out of a .223?
I have a Mini-14 and I stocked up 1000 rounds of 556 before I read an article that said Not to shoot 556 in a 223 rifle, so I kept the 1000 rounds of 556 in a 50cal ammo can till I finally got an AR-15. Of course I still stock up on 223, but I also stock up on 556. I should be able to fire 223 in my AR because it is a 223 Wylde. Be prepared and be safe my friends.
You do realize "All Ruger Mini-14 models are chambered in both . 223 Remington and 5.56×45mm NATO ammunition except the Target Rifle variant (which is . 223 only)."
Same here. My mini-14 is stamped .223. so I talked to an engineer at Ruger who told me it's perfectly safe to shoot .556.. don't take my word for it, anyone can call Ruger
Generally, the main difference between the two is HOW the pressures are measured. The civilian governing body measures one way while the government measures another. I have fired 5.56 ammo from a 233 bolt action savage for years and never had an issue. Maybe it's luck.
Except the heavy bullet 5.56 is a modern loading. The loads when originally adopted ( late 60's) were 55 and 62 grains, not modern heavy bullets and fast twist barrels.
If you are generally pleased with the typical accuracy from M193 or M855 from your M4 or AR-15A4, then have fun with it but know this, the longish free bore will indeed preclude accuracy. So. If your intent is to develop marksmanship from the AR platform, such as in US Service Rifle Competition, your best step forward is replacement of the 5.56 barrel with a match grade .223 chambered barrel. And then learn to hand load for it. With some marksmanship training and a little practice you will see your 3-4 MOA AR become a .5 MOA gun. Creds: Military Rifle Instructor assisting the USAMU deliver SDM, TTT, and SAFS Training.
Thabnks for the experienced advice, Charles. I would quibble with your use of "preclude" accuracy to describe the effects of a long throat. Wby. rifles have long been throated long yet often deliver sub MOA accuracy. Many of my rifles deliver sub-MOA with bullet seated well off the lands. Yes, it is distinctly possible that one would have more challenge developing a super accurate load using shorter bullets in a chamber throated for extra long bullets, but not impossible. Cheers and thanks for your service in our military.
Different chamber dimensions. That’s why they came up with a Wilde chamber.
Hey Ron , I would like your opinion on using the 223 for deer , I have a couple of daughters that want to hunt and are recoil sensitive , any thoughts on ammunition, shot placement , will it penetrate a shoulder on a deer ?
55 to 60-gr. bullets, tight behind the shoulder. Most suffice if you don't hit major bones or muscle mass. Broadside, behind shoulder no farther than 200 yards. Deadly. I like the 62-gr. Federal Fusion, but most work.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors thank you I will try that
Almost all rifles now are made to shoot both, they say so right from the manufacturer’s…. It’s never been an issue anyway.
I have probably loaded millions of both and use them interchangeably in both rifles. Overall length is the thing. And as long as that right it really doesn't matter, and if that's too long it won't go in the magazine and function anyway. Longer bullets just need seated deeper which of course changes the powder charge and that's where the pressure difference is. As far as case capacity, I've seen military brass that has more than civilian .223 brass, if you don't load to the red line, I doubt anyone will ever have a problem with either. And load to the correct OAL. The number one pain in the butt with loading .223/.556 is the crimped in primers. Very time consuming.
You are thinking with an AR mindset. They are cut long. A bolt gun reamed to true .223 will force feed a 5.56, but often won’t extract because you bury the neck brass into the lands. That tiny neck length difference between a .223 and a 5.56 means something. AR’s are deliberately sloppy for reliability.
I’ve reamed plenty, and often get a deer in the headlight look when I ask them which leade or neck diameter they want. Hell, I’m looking at eight different .223 reamers on my wall right now.
My 18" Wylde seems to shoot both .223 and 5.56 55g equally accurate. At least to 100yds...
Ron is up there with Paul Harrell and Hickock 45 as straight shooting guntubers. 👍
I wish you had mentioned the .223 wylde
I have 3 .223 Remington. They all say .223 on the barrel. Not one says 5.56. I shoot surplus and new .223 and 5.56 with no difference noticed. I have some old 5.56 55grain FMJ surplus ammo made in Thailand, made in the 1980s. That shoots so well. It is the most accurate of all the ammo I have shot. All my rifles in .223 are bolt guns.
They are the same cartridge because the ammo companies swap the cases and name constantly. They are used interchangeably in manufacturing. Is there a difference? Only in pedantics. If somebody is still harping on this they need more important things in their life.
5.56 is factory loaded at a higher pressure than civi 223. Thats all. Some handloaders have found LC brass to be thicker than some commercial brass. That is all. If you are worried, dont fire 5.56 in a 223 chamber.
They also make 223 Wylde now which is designed to run 5.56
I don't shoot military type ammo out of my varmit rifle, and I don't shoot light, 40 grain tnt out of a semi auto rifle. Most common, modern hunting/sporting rifles are chambered for, and the barrel twist rate, is for 55 grain ammo. High twist rates and fast bullet speeds don't work, they come apart from the force, and heavy bullets with low twist rates tumble in flight. Balance is the key. Look up the specs on .222, 221 Fireball etc. vs m855. The bullet weight is the key.
Ron just say it was a 223 wyld 🎉😂
Guys (meaning everyone including Ron), I'm looking for a bolt action rifle that will fire both 5.56 and .223 for the wife, plinking and small game. Give me a list to look through.
Ruger American Ranch in 5.56
I tend to find that 5.56 guys are experts about everything, and will tell the guy shooting a ".223 Wylde" or a ".223 Ackley improved" or a ".223 Match" chambered rifle at the local range how it is not rated to handle the pressure of the 5.56.
This
That makes much more sense than all the other hoohaa I've heard.
Could you comment on the 223 wild chambering Where that fits in with rest of the 223 and 556
A 223 wylde is essentially a match grade tolerance 5.56 nato chamber. That’s the only real difference. It can handle both 223 and 5.56 ammo.
0:22 lemme stop you right there. C.I.P., europes version of SAAMI, says they’re exactly the same thing. So ima roll with that.