My Top 3 Midwoofer / Woofer Recommendations
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- Опубликовано: 1 авг 2024
- In this video I discuss my 3 favorite woofers based on all real life factors including cost, performance, size, aesthetics, etc. This was pretty tricky to do because I can't say there are many woofers that truly impress me. I feel there were more options for me to choose from in the tweeter world.
Check out the test videos of the Dayton RS225-4 and the SB Acoustics SB13PFC25-4 to see the details of what they're about. Maybe someday I'll review the Eminence Delta 10A/B for you guys. 
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im totally agree with your favourite SbAcoustics.....ive used many of it's products and never regret
Couldn't agree more with the SB! Love that driver - great bang for the buck for sure.
Eminence makes some good stuff. I'm looking around for my car audio upgrade project, and there is a lot of weird stuff out there today.
--In any case, I never like the sound of the aluminum voice coils.
--The last Dayton 8" I had made very nice sounding bass. Most people thought I had a 12" subwoofer. Suppose the sealed enclosure design helped. But, it didn't last very long. I kept trying to get more out of it because the older it got (couple months) the less sound it produced, until it one day simply stopped playing.
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I recommend you look to add the test video links and product links in your description rather than just mentioning to check them out. You'll get way more clickthroughs while helping people find things. Thanks for all of your videos.
SB Accoustic woofer..
It's made in my country, Indonesia...
And i'm proud of them too...
Sayangnya kurang apresiasi dinegeri sendiri pak
@@pradiptawork No offence, SBacoustics are highly appeciated among speaker builders in Indo. However, the manufacturer, Sinar Baja Electric (Surabaya city, manufacturer of ACR, Legacy, etc), hesitate to market them in Indo. Finally one of car audio player in Surabaya get the distributorship for some models (maybe only models more suitable for car audio applications only). In this guy threads, he even got scolded for not wearing a pair of shoes when visiting the factory office :) Still, getting SB acoustic drivers are not easy to get in Indo, you cannot get SB13pfc025 in Indo. And if you compare local price usually more expensive than partexpress/madisound/etc (perhaps, Indo distributor purchase volume is not comparable to those international distributors).
My top 3 woofers:
1. British Bulldog
2. Staffordshire Bull Terrier
3. Jack Russell
I'm disappointed you didn't mention those... :(
Michael Baines lol
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers Sorry.... Couldn't help myself. 👍😉
I'm First ! now thats out of the way . Thank you for your videos . I was about to attempt to build some speakers until I realized how much I had to learn ....... So now I'm learning!
You're really gonna want to watch the next few videos. 123Toid and I are going to be designing a speaker from scratch and including the measurement files for anyone to follow along.
I'm in the middle of a speaker build right now and half the fun is figuring stuff out and designing it myself.
1:45 Due to it's high sensitivity, you could use a really large choke on it to mimic a sub sound and you can blend it with a smaller choke as well. The sensitivity goes down, but it will suit the lower sensitivity tweeters and that is a plus cos you would then have a wider range choice of tweeters.
That’s a really wide door.
I need that door lol
10-4. Thanks anyway
Piano moving
Great Vid Ryan!!!
Hi i have a question about mid woofer as i am trying get a kit, SB Acoustics SB17NRXC35-8 6" VS SEAS Prestige ER18RNX .... My question is which one will give me a nice natural(real life) sound?
Hello, love the videos. I’m trying to build listening speakers for my studio. I have Krks but I want other references sound probably 3way. But I wanted to know what things to consider when choosing drivers and how do I choose the right drivers to match?.
The SB13PFC25 is an amazing driver that punches way above it's price point. Works best in a ported enclosure at around 14 litres.
what size of port of the box?
i was recommended 6L 50x195mm Fb 65Hz (flat until 76Hz, F-0.5dB, with a F-1dB of 70Hz)
i was going to try 11L 50x140mm port and Fb 55Hz (82Hz to 165Hz F-1dB below flat), plays down to 55Hz F-1dB.
as you suggest 14L and my guess Fb 50Hz 50x130mm port,( 65Hz to 196Hz F-1dB below flat). plays down to 50Hz F-1dB.
it does come a bit lower then the 11L but it is not as flat. so it depends where you want that the volume of that extra 5Hz. but this is the base line that is so hard to find and after that you can play around with it. but i beg people please be redundant if you say it work in a box with FB 30Hz then please say what volume in Liters (unless you like 32" inch measurements i get it 1/8" is less then 10, but after that you might as well use mm) and vice versa. three simple things Volume of Box, Frequency of box and port tuning, and Size of port DxL. it would speed up the learning curve greatly. it is nice to run simulations but without other examples to base it off of it is hard to commit to a build and see what the range of personal preferences exist.
Raayyyyaaann. Good to ses ya bro! Brutal brutal! For when a 3 way system croossover design?
The 6.5" version of the SB is just as great and has even deeper bass. Only downside, it needs a fairly big box, to go really low.
13.5L Fb 45Hz 3.5x70mm. plays flat F-1dB 55Hz
25L Fb 40Hz 50x110mm with a dip at 100Hz down to F-1dB 44Hz (F'-1 at 90Hz and F'0db at 50Hz)
According to WinISD (unless i typed something in wrong)
I was really let down when Vifa stopped making speakers. For the home builder/designer, they were the best as far as I could afford - at the time. I still have a couple of their 8" woofers & a pair of 10" [I think..?] the M22WR09-06 & the -08 ohm. Smoooth!
Vifa это Peerless, например HDS-P830869
thanks for your stuff here! I apreciate it a lot! I learn lot!
For the SB Acoustics 5" driver is now a round one out. Also there is a version with a coaxed tweeter: SB Acoustics SB13PFCR25-4-COAX. I am experimenting with it now.
Yes the coax really intrigues me. Had a project planned for it (ceiling speakers) but went with Klispch instead.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers I see, another price range I guess. Do you like the Klipsch? Their floor standing speakers must be great what I read.
@@Biky750 they’re just their in ceiling units. Forget the mode number. Haven’t listened yet but they’re pretty cheaply made. The SB would be better quality but this was more convenient for a ceiling installation. Video coming on them!
I enjoy watching your videos and learning. Your diction and explanation is perfect. I am very much interested in building something like a Dutch & Dutch 8c. I have DIY class AB very clean 4 monoblocks 150x2 and 300x2 with a behringer active crossover. I think the 8c is a tough DIY. Please try to make one
Anand Shah nice amps :)
My fav small woofers are the SB CAC 5" and Scan Rev. The latter is v expensive but just seems to do stuff v well.
How about sb16 vs Dayton rs180-4?
greetings from Indonesia... thank you for reviewing the midwoofer product by sb acoustic... greetings professional sound
I'm planning a ported two-way with a larger 8" mid-woofer, and SB is definitely high on my list. Budget is around $1K for the pair, so I think I can fit some pretty nice parts in the budget. Need an 8" that has good bass, but can get smoothly up into the mids, and a tweeter that can crossover low. I'm thinking Baltic Birch for the cabinet with a nice veneer, and some high-quality crossover parts. I want a bit of a stunner SQ wise.
SB,good!
I know
For a 2-way better take a 6,5",maybe 2,make it a 2,5-way.
Seas tweeters,must sound very ok if designed and built ok.
Succes
isnt the dayton audio rs180-4 better suited for bookshelf speakers than the rs225 which is too big? what are your thoughts? the difference in bass might be minimal
ziggy8757 you know I really had to ask myself about the 180 because it is better for 2 ways. But I had more experience with the 225 and think it sounds better. Also the bass is a lot better in my opinion. It’s amazing what surface area does for bass. The 225 is a bass machine.
Certainly you’re right though, the 180 is also a tremendous value and great choice.
500th Like ^_^ Thanks for the great content as always!
What happened to the Iwattas ?
Ground Zero GZIW 165X-II to 400Hz and i'm going to pair it with Visaton B80 as mid-high range 400-18000Hz. GZIW165 has pretty low fs=43Hz. B80 has icredible flat response, it's just magic thing they did on this fullrange speaker.
I am really liking the paper version of the Dayton Audio woofer - RS225P-4A. The paper cone is a blend of 3 materials - paper, fiberglass and Kevlar. The 4 ohm version has an Mms of 25gm, and the 8 ohm is even lower at 23.6gm. They don't have the breakup mode nearly as much - the 8 ohm is slightly smoother.
It does look like a good woofer.
I like that myself
How about the SB acoustic sealed from about 180hz and the Dayton Audio RS 225 ported below it?
Bas Berger ya that would be a pretty good combo I think. Not very efficient for a 3 way, but not bad and would have high sound quality for sure.
What's the best high end we can get hold of regarding a bass/mid and tweeter setup? I would pay you to design the high end speakers. Currently I have Ruark Excalibur floorstanders.
Dave Jones well the scan speak illuminator drivers are really high end. Also RAAL tweeters. For high end I recommend checking out madisound.com and sorting driving from high price to low. I’m actually making a video about a dream setup right now. Hopefully have it edited sometime this week. I would certainly be interested in doing a high end design.
Have you tried any of the Silver Flute woofers? I was thinking about a 2 way design with a pair of Silver Flute W17RC38-04 and the SB29RDC-C000-4
jeff campanale yes I’ve used the 20 and 17. Definitely gave it some thought for this list but just didn’t make the cut. Packs a lot of value though. That would be a nice match. Let me know if you go for it.
Maybe check the ScanSpeak Revelator woofers for some high end experiments?
The Hivi F5 is a good midwoofer too. :)
I don't have any practical knowledge yet, but recently I was playing around in WinISD choosing a good woofer for small(-ish) bookshelves.
ScanSpeak Revelator 15W-8530K01 in a 24.5L box and 31Hz port has *INSANE* bass extention. Ruler flat till 50Hz and perfect rolloff down to 30Hz @-3dB.
Definetly saving up for a pair.
Heard a Revelator in a Totem Hawk and I couldn't believe the bass it was producing, you won't be sorry!
without the actual measurements, WinISD or any other box design software is just fun to play with but wouldn't use to do actual box design based on published specs. some drivers TS values can be off by as much as 47%
weird I just suggested that, only to see your post next :D
Just to have a budget friendly option, you mean, right...?
Nice work ❤
If your looking at that $300 range I'd highly recommend the scanspeak illuminator. Absolutely amazing speaker. You can't go wrong with that speaker at all. Imaging is out of the world. It makes everything else I've heard sound not so good. I have yet to try the vifa underhung copy though.
SB acustics Satori is the way to go.
@@whocares3132 I'll have to check those out. Been looking for something to create a center channel without spending tons in scans.
And the Revelator series before that...
@@whocares3132
Indeed,SB designers come from Scanspeak,You can see that,VIfa,Peerless and Scan is one family.
Grtz,manufacturer
Btw,check Fountek-if you have the skills.
@@theoracleprodigy
Hai,take a SB,cast frame,5 or 6,5 inch,paper,alu,aluceramic,no plastic polypropylene.
Do you have digital measuring gear f.i. Clio and simulationprgrams?
And,knowledge?
Succes with your prorject-my job.
Been here since yesterday. And all I can say for now: you need that beard back bad! :-D
Great channel !! I think about SB16PFC25 to use in TriTrix MTM TL cabinet . What do you think will this work ?
Witold Woznica I haven’t looked at TL cabinet options for that woofer, but it is decent in a ported box. I don’t think you could go wrong.
Good video bruv !
Madisound sells the ROUND version of the SB Acoustics SB13PFC25-4.
The Part Number is SB13PFC25R-04.
It's now $34.70.
Ya I don’t think it was available when I did this list, but a lot of people asked for it. Good that they made it cause it’s a nice woofer.
You are absolutely correct about the Dayton Audio RS225-4, this is a great 8 inch bass-mid driver for $50, with stiff aluminum cone, rubber surround, a low fs of 33 Hz, a very flat response up to 2 kHz, which makes it a great choice for a 8 inch two way system, and a large vented alignment of 1.5 cu ft, or 40 ltrs, for an f3 of 33 Hz, which is amazing for an 8 inch driver, the lowest you can expect to get. I have built similar systems and the bass, while not earth shattering, is quite pleasing.
I'm pretty keen to try this driver in a 2-way. Could you recommend a tweeter that could handle a low enough XO? I'm thinking the new Peerless DA32TX00-08
This driver has a very low fs of @500 Hz, and a flat response above 1 kHz, I also like this driver: Peerless DA25BG08-06, it also has a low fs at 778 Hz, and a flat response above 1 kHz, and is available for $26 from Madisound, I did not see the other one in stock, but my preference is the SEAS Prestige 27TBFC/G, priced at @ $50, fs of 550 Hz, and flat above 2 kHz, I have used this one in projects, and it does not disappoint. I would cross these at @ 2 kHz or 2.5 kHz, to get off the bass mid driver as soon as possible.
Please do a video on your measurement set up, it's very cool, and due to the very brief sweep, likely avoids room reflections in the measurement.
@@SpeakerBuilder That seems like a pretty high crossover frequency for this woofer. I was thinking it would need something more like 1.5kHz or less. Thanks for the tweeter recommendations :)
That's the challenge of an 8 inch two way system, finding one that will extend into this range. I agree that may seem high, but you don't want to cross a tweeter less than one octave above the fs, so as to have it operate within its nominal impedance range, and to avoid driving them too hard and burning them out, and also to keep them from honking. I have built several such systems successfully, usually crossed at 2 kHz.
Hello again, I have bought two Eminence delta 10a's on your recommendation. Could I ask you what size enclosure would you recommend?, sealed and vented? I have a dayton audio reference 12" sub, so I don't need it to do the sub bass. I enjoy your video very much and I have asked questions before and you have replied......no pressure. best regards. Tony. UK
tony cook hi Tony. About 20L to 30L vented is best. Sealed not so much. Definitely should look at a box model program like winisd to see what works best for your requirements.
Great video as always. Which of the mentioned drivers have copper in the motor? Also have you ever heard an Accuton, curious how much better these drivers are. Lastly please review the new RST28A :)
Tarek Z the Dayton rs225 has shorting rings but I can’t find out if they’re copper or aluminum. None of these have copper in the gap.
Never used accuton. Heard them before, but never a good idea to judge a driver based on someone else’s speaker without knowing a lot about the speaker design. They look very good but also very expensive.
I’ll be reviewing the RST28F pretty soon. I don’t have the A though. Hopefully that will be somewhat helpful.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers Thanks for the info
I love the Eminence 10s as well. People used to tell me they aren't a "Hi Fi" woofer, that they couldn't do "music" or movies well. Only instruments. LOL.
TechGuy when you think about it, that’s such a silly notion. Good enough to create the music, but can’t be used to replay the music?? Lol.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers I know, but that is what people used to say. "It's a guitar speaker" or "It's a PA speaker". "It's not a HiFi speaker".
What do you think about the Dayton TCP 115?
For my opinion it's one of the best 4'' woofer for less than 15 bucks
TheChris94 sorry but I haven’t used that one.
Hola, Thanks for yet another informative video! I really like the Dayton RS series but what I am worried about is that it's said that aluminum cones often have nasty resonance. And you might not even be able to see them in the frequency response plot of the manufacturer.... What's your view on this? Can those resonances be prevented by crossing low enough? Or is it all a myth?
The break up is easy to see in the measurements. You just have to cross low enough and they sound great. 1khz for the RS225 is reasonable. Could even do 1.5khz is using steep slopes. Probably need to go active to get the slopes steep enough.
Thanks for your insights guys! I thought about the RS-[number]p woofers but they don't look as fancy ;) But, as long as I avoid the cone break-up that is shown in the plots, by crossing low enough, I should not have to worry about nasty resonances? That would be great!
Best midwoofers - are those that are easy to work with and simple to filter. Usually these are speakers with a descending frequency response, without any emissions at the end of the frequency response (in the form of a “shepherd’s stand” or mountain like most SB, which require high-order filters and the use of notch chains).
What about morel mw-164 with double magnet system and 3" hexatech aluminum voice coil...have u ever tried them ?
Sotos Papa I’ve never used it, but even if I had the cost probably would have kept it off the list. This list was best in terms of all factors including cost.
Inflation man that SB acoustics midwoofer is now pushing 35 bucks at Madisound.
I'm using the Big brother. The cast version and the baskets are round with the SB29 domes. Awesome sounding MTMs
Has anybody tried the dynavox honecomb woofer? It seems to sound nice, buy I have not tested it, or own it.
Dang man, my list also has Delta "A" midwoofer, Dayton Reference (paper cone version) on it. My list adds the audiophile's prosound midbass: the
B&C 12PE32. For my SUPER low-buck pick is the $11.00 Dynavox TC-6028 (8ohm, 6.5") TC-6024 is the 4ohm version.
Which relatively chip SB Acoustic (or eventually other) 6,5 " and which 8 " woofer do You recommend to DIY 2 way speaker? I mean really good quality for small money.
Lukasz Z their PF series is amazing for cheap. Only issue is the shape of the frame. I think a new round version might be available though.
Definitely check out the PFs. Possibly the best value woofers in the world.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers thanks for info. Shape is not a real problem. I even like how it looks.
Are these speakers sound better than commercial speakers? Lets say KEF or qacoustic? based on male,female both voice and voice clarity
Well, that’s subjective and I’m quite bias. Let’s just say you get a lot more for the money, but I had to put my own labour into it. KEF are great speakers, but you’re paying for the labour, profit, middle man seller, etc.
My 10" woofers only kick in at about 60 Hz. Could the RS255-4 serve as a subwoofer for a home theater?
I would not use it that way. Sounds like your woofer box isn’t tuned well.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers My 10" woofers are part of a 4-component speaker. I aam looking for a subwoofer.., 8", for my home theater. My room, in an "L" configuration, has about 600 sq. ft.
Hi! Which tweeter/driver you recomend for Eminence Delta 10? Of course I preffer dome tweeters but I don't think that there are so efficient domes ;).
Krzysztof Szulc well if you used a mid there might be a couple dome tweeters that can keep up. But in a 2 way I’d look at the B&C DE10 or DE250. The whole DE line is pretty good sounding.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakersThank you. I'm planing to use Delta 10 as midrange. Which DE will be smoother -more dome sounding and which horn select?
Krzysztof Szulc probably the DE10. I really like the seos 10 and 12. There’s also a seos 8 worth checking out. But might not be big enough for the delta 10. There are a few nice B&C horns as well. They’ll provide better power handling, but the seos is smooth.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers may thanks :) your the man :)
hello thanx for sharing info. Can i ask U what mid woofers 6.5inch do U recomend for 3way studio speakers, the xo is set from 300 to 3600, i am looking for as much detailed sound as possible. I am thinking on paper sb ones or some scanspeak. Currently using dynavox and they are ok but sound is very forward sounding what dont like. I am listening in 2.3m distance. Thanx.
A I would check out this scan speak 15M if I were you: ruclips.net/video/Xg-vDMxZSFM/видео.html
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers yo will do, also the one of the best sounding spekaers i heard (amphions) they using seas not expensive midwoofers but they cut them around 1.5k so its not the range i am looking for. Thenx Man.
I built 12 years ago, 4 freflex trapezoidal bass satellites with 4 chords, double 10 inch delta 10B 16OHM one with a 2 "16 OHM central driver, mainly used as medium high, 3-way active party / disco system, a amplifiers for the 4 drivers 8 + 8OHM, a 4 + 4OHM amp for the 8 wofers, 1 amplifiers for the 4 CerwinVega L36PE! the bass always at maximum, never broken anything, 4 Cerwin-vega don't fit those 4 satellites, second me 2 other basses would be great, with a total of 8 basses it would be the top for a clean bass and not to the limit, but I would risk blowing something up!
I would like to disassemble them and build 8 smaller and more practical speakers but they are all 16OHM woofers, now they have been abandoned in the warehouse for many years now, unfortunately, the passion for audio and speakers for various reasons has faded, those woofers are fantastic and cheap, I love Eminence!
maybe sell them? help someone else get into the hobby.
Have you done anything with the Silver Flute brand of speakers?
Brian watson yes I have with their 8” and 6.5” woofers. Pretty decent woofers.
I want to know more about that wtmw speaker that you had the Eminence Delta 10B's in, I saw that in the background of another one of your videos and it caught my attention. I'd really like to build something with dual woofers and skip the sub though.
That speaker definitely needs subs. It’s for HT. It’s called the elusive 1099 and has quite a bit of information on the web. A lot of people have built them for their home theatres.
Thanks.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers yeah, I saw you commented about the Eminence woofer. Thanks for the name.
Ehh, oh well, looks like none of the Denovo Audio parts are available and I know nothing about the custom mids.
Ok…. I’m just getting started with some speaker renovation. I love the old 70s lattice speakers so I got my hands on an old pair of Pioneer CS-77 3 way speakers. Cabinets are in decent shape but the speaker sounds are lacking to say the least. I want to stick with a 3way system and was wondering if you could recommend some speakers and perhaps a crossover design? I’m gonna DL the swim and play around with it. I’m not opposed to changing the baffles but would prefer to stick with the current configuration.
Hmm, I’m not sure which 3 way to recommend as I haven’t heard many DIY 3 ways. Just my own and a few others I’ve had a chance to hear on occasion. The biggest thing will be finding something well documented that fits your baffles. That’s what you want.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers thanks…. I am not familiar with components. I’ll keep looking. Trying to match the efficiency as close as possible so I don’t have to attenuate too much. Gonna be fun project I think! I need a good mid range, I saw your video on tweeter, any recommendations for a good mid to pair with your favorite tweets?
@@rajoconnor something 8ohm. I hate working with 4ohm mids. And good efficiency. Always a problem making a mid work well if it’s low sensitivity and 4 ohms.
ever used a SB Acoustics SB17? Thinking about running a pair in my doors for my truck
imBriz actually no, but by all accounts it’s a great woofer.
Wasn't that SB the iron driver sometime ago?
Vifa ne is worth mentioning imo. Priced well and not far from Satori.
Impulse response ya I think so. I wasn’t in that but I recall something about that. Good choice for that competition. The vita NEs are really good too. I’m surprised they’re not more popular.
just finding your videos, i see it's 5 years old but find them very interesting. Seems like you gravitate more towards paper cones. I've heard there more palatable and have better mirco-dynamics then metal cones, how true that is idk. Would you shed your experience on this?
Thanks. Glad you’re enjoying them. Would like to make videos again one day.
I don’t believe there is as much of a difference between metal and paper as people say. I just think paper is much more common and priced better, so that’s probably what I end up using. Some of the best drivers in the world use paper from scan speak to pro audio 15” mid bass drivers. It works.
You should make more lists!
Hi Ryan. Thanks for all the awesome videos. Can you recommend an alternative to the Magnum 12 that performs on the same level but looks better?
Hmm, the SB Acoustic 12” woofers are similar in quality and performance and do look a whole lot better. Check them out. Also peerless may have something.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers Ok! I was looking at the SB stuff but wasn't sure that they'd dish out as much midbass authority as the magnum12. Duly noted. Thanks!
@@greyhound9967 I think they’ll be close, but the magnum will still be more powerful.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers Fair Enough. Happy New Year!
I have a question regarding the home theater speakers starting @ 2:02.
I have also been considering a design using two midranges to keep up with 2 larger woofers. However, placing the midranges side to side reduces horizontal dispersion. That's ideal if resonate frequencies within a room are intended to be kept at a minimum for speech clarity, and left, center, and right speakers' mid ranges are kept at minimal interference with one another. All is good so far, but the low end woofers are then even more wide in terms of dispersion relative to the somewhat "nearfield" midrange arrangement. It's becoming a mess.
Have you ever considered dispersion control of the larger woofers so the lower mids, ~300hz and a touch lower, are kept contained?
Placing two midranges vertically has the draw back of limiting vertical dispersion. Imaging becomes a problem for listeners above or below the midranges. Now we're running into the problem where our hand is forced to complete a line array. That's a path I have no intent of going down. That and the narrower dispersion of the midrange is now completely done away with.
Is the best solution using a larger midrange and then placing two large woofers side by side underneath? I'm trying to control dispersion across the mids and lower vocal region.
Anonymous DueToFascists all good points. Making horizontal mids work properly is quite a nightmare. It’s important to keep in mind that although the mids will limit dispersion horizontally, they’ll become less directional and more omnidirectional as frequencies drop. By the time the woofers come on the directivity of the mids is very wide. So they actually blend quite well. Designing directivity way down to less than 500hz gets extremely complicated and I generally allow the speaker to go wide dispersion. My primary concern is with the midrange reflections off the walls.
Ok, so it's your opinion that lower frequencies which go much wider than the mids do not really affect speech and vocal clarity. It's been my experience, possibly misinterpreted by me, that when bass overly fills a room it's begins to sound like uncontrolled mud which negatively interacts with the highs and mids.
Frankly, I'm beginning to give up a bit on "high fidelity" tv and movies. They're mastered in such a way that doesn't work well with high fidelity left/right 3-way speakers intended for music. The bass comes on in overly exaggerated waves...even during speech. A good hi-fi 3-way reaches far too low for how movies and tv sound best in one's own home. I then see many people trying to make up for this dynamic by cranking up a center channel. It then sounds like a ball peen hammer on tin.
For tv and movies, I like smaller left and right speakers that can't really handle the bass below ~90hz. I then augment with a sub-woofer for when a good wallop of sound is desired.
One possible solution for me is to find a receiver or dsp which keeps decibel levels within a controlled range for a given set of frequencies. Or simply find hi-fi left and right speakers where the bass can be turned down during tv/movies.
I'm starting to realize the frustration people are having has nothing to do with speaker driver quality, distortion, or even desired flatness. The second problem people think is causing their woes is dispersion control and room treatments. I guess I fall into that trap thinking that if only I could control dispersion speakers could sound good across all media platforms. It really has to do with music vs tv/movies mastering.
People keep spending $10 grand plus on their left and right channels and then wonder why they're still unsatisfied because they don't enjoy everything (tv, movies, and music).
I have a cheaper solution for most people, myself included. Spend ~$3 grand on a left/right combo for music and then use a $1,000 satellite/sub combo for tv and movies. It looks awful and appears one is lost, but I think it makes more sense.
Anonymous DueToFascists I think you’re probably struggling with a combination of the room and the mastering. I agree the music vs movie mastering is usually quite different and sometime difficult to make the two work. In the bass department that is. I’m not sure directivity is the answer though. It is an answer but probably not the easier or cheapest. Have you measured the response at the listening position? A mic and Room EQ Wizard can really help improve your sound. We the bass to give a gentle roll of towards the highs. Don’t EQ flat. I definitely believe in using subs. Even for music but definitely for HT. You can trim the bass a db or 2 as required depending on the mastering and your mood. This may help with what you’re facing.
Impulse Audio I agree. Your tips coincide with what I've observed throughout the years.
I borrow the testing equipment from a friend. It's been awhile since I've tested and I avoid it because I know what's wrong with the room/house.
Good music has always been easy for me for both listening and entertaining guests. And sometimes I use a sub with music, sometimes I don't. Regardless, the experience is ideal.
But tv/movies/youtube are just a mess when I want to use a good pair of high fidelity left/right speakers which can respond near flat (+/- 2db) to ~60hz and below. It doesn't matter if I use a sub or not, or even if I use a center channel or not. I turn down the bass a bit and/or boost the mid and treble and this truly helps. Regardless though, the experience is not to my liking.
Only when I use satellites/bookshelves and a sub during a movie is it to my liking instead of using my large left and right speakers I use for music.
Music is typically within a reasonable sound level range and I assume that's why it's so forgiving in a less than ideal room. Whether I play it soft or loud, it blends quite nicely and vocal clarity is never lost.
But with movies, the sound range difference is too large for my liking. And the bass effects are ridiculously loud while there is still speech present in a scene. Voices sound like unintelligible mud. Worst of all there is no consistency between voices and explosions/rumbles. Sometimes it appears they treat male voices as though the bass frequencies present are just low frequency information that should be boosted no differently than when a bomb goes off. At other times, they're sensible and they realize voices containing low frequencies shouldn't be treated like the fire bombing of Dresden. ;)
Thanks for your help, I'll keep learning.
Just wondering if you can suggest speakers for a 3 way build, enclosed speakers, FLR channels for home theatre system, 3-4 hundred $ range each include crossover. Thanks
MrLiquidhallo with a 3-4 hundred dollar budget I would expect to spend close to $100 on the XO for a 3 way. And I’m assuming the materials and time to build the speakers are not part of the budget. So you’re looking at about $100 per driver. Pretty healthy budget actually. The size of the speaker is a big part of the decision. What size are you looking for?
MrLiquidhallo and are you new to this?
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers will be my first set of speaker to build, have necessary skills to build the enclosures to specifications no problems, the amount $ is just for the drivers. I'm creating my 7.2.4 atmos theatre room, i understand that the most important is a good quality LCR speaker the rest of speakers are just for sound effects so i will buy some in wall sp. for that. I going with seald subwoofers as well, probably buy some already made around 300- 400$ each, not decided yet. Thanks for your time and quality response.
MrLiquidhallo as it’s your first build I would encourage you to try a 2 way for some surrounds or atmos speakers or something. But if not, and this is home theatre, I would definitely start with the SB29RDCN tweeter as it’s very sensitive. Also the scan speak mid that I tested on this channel. Both driver have test videos and measurement files to help you design. As you’re just starting out that will be a big help for you. As for the woofer, that will really determine the size of box you can tolerate. For home theatre I would suggest something large like the magnum 12 or a pair of 8” woofers. You’ll want a lot of efficiency to give you an impactful sound. A pair of Dayton audio RS225-8 maybe... These are all under your budget I believe, but there’s no sense in using something expensive if it’s not necessary. I’ve suggested drivers I’ve actually tested on this channel because you’re starting out, so it will help you know how to use the drivers and how the measurements are. If you didn’t need that I may have other suggestions like SB Acoustic woofers or pro audio woofers.
Thanks again! BTW I think I saw a new Denovo 10". Is this a tweaked delta 10?
Greg Kramer hmm don’t know about that. The 10” used in the kits I did might be called that. Which yes they’re a tweaked delta 10. It almost didn’t make my list because of looks and size.
Thanks, Ryan Yes, It was one of your kits. The dual woofer version with the waveguide. Oddly the Diysound website has an issue right now where I cannot see them.
Greg Kramer ok ya that would be a tweaked delta 10b then. Hopefully Erich gets the site going again.
The dinky plastic frame SBs 😋 - but there are other manufacturers that use plastic frame - for the money, very hard to beat.
Some other midwoofs that I would like to mention is Exodus Audio Anarchy XBL - not very efficient, doesn't go crazy low but crazy Xmax for the size with good distortion numbers. The SB alu and 'ceramic' cones appear to do better than coated paper ones, but more $.
A bit ff topic: how is the Dayton RST28 since you mentioned that you will test the Dayton tweeters - good, remarkable, or stick with something from SB?
pliedtka something nice about plastic is that it’s rather inert.
The anarchy is a great choice.
I haven’t used the RST28 yet but will be soon. We’ll see how it does. I do like SB drivers though.
I heard, back in the day (for some reason) a load of Scanspeak audio engineers got fed up with working at Scanspeak and started Sinar Baja (SB). So you basically get Scanspeak design without the bullshit.
How would 2x RS225P, 1x RS52FN and 1x DC28F with a 2nd order 500 - 4000 crossover sound?
ben lawton I don’t know. Haven’t used that combo before. Would be difficult to design as it’s a 3 way, but should be successful considering all the drivers would have lots of overlap.
What would u recommend for mid-bass fast punch and speed??
Budget?
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers under $300 US each or less
@@1moderntalking1 that’s a pretty high budget. I would be looking at the scan speak series of woofers. For that level of build I couldn’t give an answer. It’s going to depend on a lot of factors like size, tweeter used, etc. But around 6.5-7” scan speak would be something I’d look at.
Do you know which woofer is close to harbeths radial woofers?
PATISHAH not entirely sure but they sorta look like an Audax woofer to me.
Judging by this 'docu/advert' Harbeth have a pretty unique way of driver manufacture. ruclips.net/video/Ja9BJn0lMxIH/видео.htmlowever, Falcon Acoustics in UK have their own range of LS3/5A drivers and kits - very well reviewed and intensively designed - I suspect they have a lot of knowledge on this sort of driver and speaker and are friendly on the phone - worth a call+chat?www.falconacoustics.co.uk/ls3-5a-full-bbc-specification.html
Has you tried. Silver Flute W17RC38-04 6.5" Woofer Wool Cone 4 ohm or “08” for about $35 at Madisound? 😃
Yes a long time ago. Very good value. Worth using.
Hi! Why u are recommending SB13PFC25 4 Ohm version? Its 8 Ohm version is worse in some way?
No I’m sure the 8ohm is fine. The extra sensitivity of the 4ohm is nice and it’s the one I have experience with.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers Lets assume that Do you mean sb13pfcr25-08 87dB vs -04 89dB it is 2dB, imho not that much or you are accounting also 4Ohm vs 8Qhm "sensitivity" too, which will affect the impendence of the final speaker? As you are a good tutor, maybe next topic for your video could be real world explanation with difference of 4Ohm speakers vs 8Ohm nominal of the final speakers (2-way for example), which drop dramatically lower on some occasions. Theoretically I understand what that means, but never experienced that effect in practice, as I don't listed at high levels or have some gear, which I can afford to test that way or rather to understand what just happened. In other words: if there are 2 different speakers: one built with 4Ohm woofer, and another with the same woofer, but 8Ohm version and both with the same 4Ohm tweeter, then final 2 products with crossover will be ~4Ohm and ~8Ohm nominal with theoretically similar SPL and sound quality performance. When testing them with different lets say sub-200USD amplifiers, as 95% of all the music lovers have... What differences in music quality will be? SPL? What will be to the amps when played at normal levels? Party levels? Max levels with clipping? And so on. There are LOTS of info on this topic on internet but much of it is so misleading
MY PERSONAL MIDRANGE IS THE Scanspeak 15M/4624G Discovery, 5.5" Midrange.
SOUNDS ULTRA INCREDIBLE. THE PIANO SOUND AND VOCALS ARE CRISTAL CLEAR. YOU MUST KNOW TO WORK THE CROSSOVERS. OTHERWISE YOU 'RE IN THE LIMBO.
Gioxtream ya they’re really nice. Have you seen my test video of them? ruclips.net/video/Xg-vDMxZSFM/видео.html
I don't know how to message you so i hope you see this.... maybe this can be a future video idea? i can't find much out there on speaker ports and which direction to aim them or how different posisitions in the box can affect the sound. I built 2 sets of house speakers and i ended up venting them out the back like my cerwin vegas. Anyways i have a buncha house speakers and the ones with front ports sound good outside, the rear ported ones lack bass unless against a wall.... I recently put some better "woofers" in my bigger set of house speakers i am working on calling finished, and they beat the wall down. i use these plumping plugs that screw tighten to block the ports sometimes and wonder if i should have maybe ported them out of the front (i didnt originally because i read something about it causing cancellation) or just went sealed.... my plan is to have a pair of 3-way speakers that don't require a sub extra . 2.0 stereo sound . box ported @20hz , 12'' woofer plays up to 80hz , plan on putting a 6.5 inch playing 80hz-5000 , and a new tweet doing the rest.... well so far thats the plan. The newest video i posted show just the woofers playing some bass.
chris ristau it technically shouldn’t matter what direction the ports fire. If the bass doesn’t sound good outside it may just be because you get bass reinforcement from the room and outdoors you don’t.
Can you talk about the tools you use to box construction?
A Silva I have a shop tour video where I touch on this. Might wanna check that out.
I have experience with two of these drivers, the Dayton RS225-8 (exceptional mid/woofer!) and the Emi Delta 10B (not so good.....)
ak bass the delta 10 is a difficult driver to work with and doesn’t provide much bass. Once you get it right it’s a spectacular result. The Elusive 1099 is one of the most popular diy speakers out there and reviews are stellar (tooting my own horn but I’m proud of it), so the woofer must be doing something right. I do admit though that the mids in that speaker are the real star of the show.
Hey, would you mind explaining why sba is worse than tymphany one? Tymphany is all the way going down to 70hz compared to sba 107hz in sealed box and 35hz vs 80hz in ported box. In a 12 inch sealed box should i put sba or tymphany?
Shubhendu Pal sorry which tymphany driver are you referring too?
Tymphany SDS-P830656 against SB Accoustics SB13PFC25. You mentioned the 2nd is far better for extra 5 dollars. Sorry I was not clear. And, hey, thanks for replying.
Appologies, it is Peerless instead of Tymphany. For a 12 inch sealed, which one- sds 830656, sb13pfc25 or Dayton nd140?
Shubhendu Pal the SB for sure. The 656 is nice for the money but the SB is a good step up in quality.
Thanks, did you see the ND140?
Do you know of anyone with a CNC file to inset the SB Acoustics SB13PFC25-4 woofer? Thanks
Hmm, I think I have one made up in vcarve version 7. My actual file for the cnc wouldn’t work for you.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers I am using the current version of V Carve.
@@mlb3164 I can look for it on my computer. Was just a PDF trace, not the most accurate.
Are they for pa passive speakers or dj systems
No this list was more for home audio like home theatre or music.
Hi 😁 i have 2× 225-8 and want DIY. What do you think it can be the best tweeter for my project plz 👍
I would suggest something with a waveguide. I think there’s a 30mm wave core you can get in a waveguide that would be a good choice.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers Thank you for the awnser ☝️I have found a couple tw yeah. Most are pretty expensives... Like 200$ Canadian. I have 2 Klipsch tw what do you think about them ? "
Nominal Impedance: 8 ohms
Crossover Frequency: 2100Hz
Tweeter: 1” (2.5cm) aluminum dome tweeter
High Frequency Horn: 5” (12.7cm) 90×60 Tractrix Horn
@@jacksound5471 I’m not sure about klipsch drivers cause I’ve never used them, but something in a horn would likely work well. If you have them it’s worth a test box try.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers hi 😁 yeah i think they are easier to cross each others. i'm gonna try some tests sooon as possible. Thank's !
SB Acoustics make 4" coaxials (their smallest) and use that with the SB woofer and you would have a 3,000 speaker sound. Especially if you mucked around with the mounting of the drivers and made fancy boxes and a good crossover. Their coaxials are proper coaxial (point source time aligned) and combined with superior 4" medrange (with it's own bass) it would sound amazing.
I have tried them, but the the little coaxial tweeter is not good enough to be paired with the woofer-part..
what box? Vb and Fb please.
what you think of Peerless 830874?
Peerless is a very solid brand. Pretty much everything from them is good. I guess nothing from them jumped out at me though. I haven’t used the 830874 but I know people who have and it’s quite a nice woofer.
I wanted to hear the signature sound of these speakers. Some mids sound like scratchy cardboard and not enough flex to hit a beautiful punchy midbass. Hope you know what I mean. Sorry just learning looking for a good sounding midrange speaker.
Great Plains Audio (Altec continuation) 515-8LF, 16"
TAD TL-1601a, 400mm
TAD TL 1602, 400mm
JBL 2245 18"
JBL 2234 15"
JBL 2235 15"
These are my favorites... currently have and use all except JBL 2234, 2235
Jennifer WhiteWolf very nice choices!
Impulse Audio
I should add, I am "way behind" in current knowledge in the 12 inch, 10 inch and 8 inch arena... Back in the day ( 1980s) when I was specifying and using drivers in that range, there were few good choices, basically Dynaudio was the best. ... and in the late 60s into the 70s, the JBL LE8. I did find this presentation very informative, and as a relatively new viewer, I am enjoying your show👍👍👍.
Hi. It would have been incredibly interesting if you made a video that shows how to create ZMA of RFD files. I'm new to your channel and I like this....
Paul Morgan Ryder I just save the measurement. The software has an option to save them that way. Or do you mean how to take the measurement?
Yes... that was what i meant... My English isn't top. I'm from Norway :-)
especially the measurements for frequency and phase
Paul Morgan Ryder oh I see, no problem. I’d like to do a video like that eventually but have a couple other things to work on first. I will do one eventually.
hello, any idea about Lavoce speaker quality ? (8' sub) cheers
Galawak sorry, never heard of them.
ok best vibes
The grs 15 inch woofers are good quality but require a good enclosure to get them running properly and you have to give them no more than 150 watts rms otherwise you will blow them
what size box Vb and Fb please. ive been looking at that driver too. thank you.
The trouble with plastic frames and iv'e seen this happen on other drivers with plastic frames eg Infinity, is that the glue used can dry out and the magnet drops off
Robert Barton never heard of that, but good to know. I’ll keep my eye on it.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers It might take years for it to happen or shorter depending on climate i suppose, forgot to say thanks for a great site
Bought some 6.5 audax plastic frame, couldn't survive shipping magnet fell off twice
Why couldn't the eminence 10A be used in an apartment? Is it just that you don't need the dB it can put out, so you could go with something more discrete? Or is there something else fundamentally wrong with using it in small listening spaces?
MrChompenstein no fundamentally wrong. Just bigger and louder than needed. But hey, even at lower volumes it’ll sound very clean and solid because it won’t be pushed hard at all!
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers Ok thanks. I've read larger woofers can have a beaming effect, as the off-axis response fades away at higher freq. But also this just means that this is the region the tweeter should be able to fill in. Still in the research phase of a far off build, but I have been wanting to play around with a Beta12cx.
Assuming I want to do things the right way . . . Is there any other good method of measuring FRD-ZMA files besides buying something like the Dayton DATS V3?
MrChompenstein yes the bigger driver at a short listening distance will require some extra thought on matching a tweeter (and possibly mid).
I have tried the cheap jigs and different ways of measuring impedance, but no, there’s no really easy way to do it. You can always spl trace from the manufacturer though. Impedance isn’t that variable or phase sensitive like the frequency response is.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers Yeah, I have very recently been looking at the process of tracing manufacturer charts, but the more I read it seems like getting something like DATS V3 is the best way to make the most of your efforts. And I know attempting something like the Beta 12cx will present some issues because the coaxial layout limits the size/shape of the wave-guide.
As far as design methodology, is my thinking correct?: Measure driver parameters > design enclosure based on these parameters > install drivers > measure installed parameters > design crossover to suit installed drivers . . . . while trying to best account for off-axis abnormalities.
Thanks for the help.
MrChompenstein sort of. The more important part is measuring the frequency response. I’ve done plenty of speakers using the manufacturer’s parameters for box design. But I don’t trust the frequency response part.
I prefer 12-15 inch woofers that do both upper bass and sub bass frequencies really well with a 90ish dB sensitivity or better.
David Perry I too use a lot of woofers like that from the Pro world. But this list was about value, form, use, etc. These woofers offer a lot IMO.
I MADE THE BEST SPEAKERS I EVER HAD
I just finished making a pair of home hacked (3" coaxial driver + woofer semi omni speakers) and they are the best speakers I have ever made. See short video link below for a clearer picture of what's in the next paragraph:
The "tweeter" is a stripped down 1.5" micro FR driver (with no cone) and a very thin bamboo stick is super glued to the voice coil tube of the micro FR driver, and the stick pokes through a hole (drilled through another larger 3" FR driver) and the frame of the micro FR driver is hot glued to the back of the 3" FR driver (with the stick inserted into the hole). And a thin 1/4" foil "tizzer" is super glued to the other end of the stick that is just poking through the front of the hole in the 3" FR driver (just above the start of the 3" cone). It's a coaxial driver and it's "time aligned" for point source sound! And that's the only purpose of doing it like that. And to keep it time aligned I covered up any holes in the mico FR driver frame to stop any residual sound coming from the driver itself.
I also run the 3" drivers slightly above the speaker enclosure hole, with a 4" polypipe tube going down into the box (to clear up med and also acts as a bass vent for the 3" coaxial driver) and the outside part of the 4" polypipe is also a mount for the 3" driver (in a slanted position). And I run it with an extra woofer below (also slanted). The 3" driver being ran above the hole helps clear up resonances (if it's done right that is) and boosts treble and sweetens the voice sound and some of the sound escapes through the gap and goes behind the box (and is less "muffly" from behind).
But the size of the gap between the driver and the speaker box hole is incredibly critical! Move the 3" driver inwards by 1 mm and you get a "squarky" loud voice tone and move it 1mm out and you get a soft "husky" voice sound (with not enough "squark"). And "in between" is the best position for sound, but you have to have the gap within 1 mm up or down. lol And the gap is way larger on the top of the driver, than the bottom. It's angled above the hole to get a variation in resonances cos of the odd slanted geometry. The gap is just a bit more than 1/4" on the bottom of the driver and about 5/8th" gap on the top of the 3" driver. But that only for that particular enclosure, for any other enclosure it would be a different gap. Hard to do but you can move a driver up&down way quicker than changing the crossover.
They are also semi omni style speaker boxes with the drivers angled at like 40 degrees, with inverted pyramids above the drivers that act as dispersing "horns" (see short video link below). The woofer has inductors set up for 3-way (cos it is) and all the signal is put through the 3" driver except the lower bass, which is handled by the extra woofer. Also the 3" driver is slightly resisted and it is "tizzed off" with a small value cap in par'l with the resistor. And the "super tweeter" in the center has a 1 mf cap (very important to have a cap on it cos otherwise you will have a dancing tizzer)! It's made from a micro FR driver, and moves without a small value cap on it.
They are the best speakers I have ever had and I plan to sell the coaxial drivers by themselves) (and with a 1 mf ceramic cap on the "super tweeter"). I'm planning to make them from 3" to 5" diam (best med size). The med is sweet cos of the small driver and treble has way better transients at high frequencies cos the stick and tiny tizzer is way lighter than the 3" cone (and point source "headphones effect" to boot). Also you don't have to run them above the speaker box hole (I just do, cos it's my style). A one minute video: ruclips.net/video/UlJHRQidsvI/видео.html
so you just interchange woofers and tweeters in your book shelf speaker boxes using the same crossovers? i dint think you could do that,and get good sound.
Odin Coulombe No I don’t do that. Is there something in the video that gave that idea? You’re right that’s not a good idea.
ya i saw you putting in a woofer to a cabinet that had zebra wood veneer.@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers ive been getting crossovers from madisound,and they have to build them to the drivers i buy. i did use multiple kinds of tweeters with the same crossover,but i made sure the tweeters all had the same stats of ohm watts and db ,,seems to work out ok.
Odin Coulombe that isn’t enough. Frequency response, impedance curves, phase, etc. will always be different.
I was putting the driver into a cabinet I built and designed the XO specifically for that tweeter and woofer combination. Wasn’t just a switch out. I have videos about the build and design if you’re interested.
oh you make your own crossovers,ive just started learning about it.as of now i have madisound make them for me,they make good ones but i know they dont take everything into account when building them.@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers
Hey! What are your thoughts on full range drivers?
Tonewood I enjoy them actually. They have a purpose. They’re not perfect. And I almost always add a subwoofer. But it’s amazing what some of the modern full range drivers can do.
Can you implement these into car audio?
Absolutely. Not sure these would be my top picks for CA, but for the most part they would be great. Depends on the application really.
@@ImpulseAudioSpeakers mind giving your top picks for car audio?
Used 12 of the SB13PFC in Curt Campbell's Uluwatu design a 2.5way line array with MLTL bass... stunningly fast but detailed and impactful bass! Alas mids arent as good as Satori despite using 6 of them per speaker
schadenfreude the Satori is very good. But it could also be that the speaker is a 2.5 way. I really don’t like 2.5 ways for what they do to the mids. But I’m basing that on only a few examples so not completely fair.
Nice
Lii Audio... has high end very very good and also not to expensive drivers (!!!)
How about the Beyma 12p80nd?
David Smith I’ve never used it or it might have made the list.