Very interested in your listening tests. I've always been a big fan of the Peerless drivers, I still have several and used one of their 12" subs in SQ competition several years ago.
the older 12 inch Woofers are still used in SQ or some who want accurate Bass for Homecinema or listening to music with sub, hard to get nowadays I think =)
Vas is not what you should look at for which is stiffer. Vas is dependent on many other parameters like Qms, size, winding height etc. etc. Compliance is the cleanest parameter to look for regarding stiffness. The lower the stiffer. Regarding the 3rd distortion peak of the Peerless driver it's because of the hard plastic center and it will give a touch of disturbing edge to the sound. The human ear is more sensitive to 3rd harmonic than 2nd. With normal hearing we can detect 2nd distortion at 0,5-0,7% and 3rd at 0,2-0,3% so basically we are 6-9dB more sensivtive to 3rd. The aim for the perfect driver is to have 6-9dB difference between 2nd and 3rd harmonics of distortion at listening level. If 3rd is lower than that the driver will be a bit "soft" in character, and when the difference is less it tends to be "sharper" in character. That's why you might perceive the 3rd harmonic peak of the peerless driver to add some edge or sharpness to the character. The top end peak of the SB Acoustic driver will however be a much worse problem to solve. Crossover point need to be at least 2 octave lower with a -12dB LP filter other wise it will give a peaky edgy sound that is creating listening fatigue.
The dip at 1.6k on the satori is due to the cone edge break up, it results in a little phase wiggle at that point… the mw16p cone is a better design geometrically, and the mw13/16tx textreme cone being very rigid carbon gets rid of it all together
Great, interesting and very informative. And by the way - fun, I mean the way you comment, it's very nice to watch. As for the conclusions - quite surprising. Expected more from Satori. It so happens that my main speakers are built on peerless(P830884+P831882 plus a tweeter from SB and I will not touch it). Except that they are peerless EX series (unfortunately more and more difficult to obtain) with a fixed phase plug, they also have a slightly higher efficiency than standard HDS and lower distortion - what are you looking for. If you get a chance to try this P831882 and others from the EX series, they are worth of it. And it's interesting how the underrated and cheap peerless match up with the "woow" rated Satori.
@@RAW-CAt Hard to find, unfotunately. I had to replace one of P831882 which was damaged during loudspeaker relocation during home renovation and had to buy them from Wagner(Australia). In general, the tendency/tradition of Peerless is that their best speakers become "discontinued". They released two brilliant tweeters, the DA25TX00-08 and DA32TX00-08 with a corundum diaphragm, calmly standing in line with the beryllium and diamond domes, but with massive, unprecedented cooling and capable of linear operation up to 1400hz without combining the waveguide. The whole DIY world practically didn't notice them (maybe they were too cheap :) but they went to many hi-end constructions for tens of thousands of euros :). And just a month ago, production ended, after only 3-4 years. Weird. Nevertheless - it is worth looking at the peerless offer because they have a lot of gems for pennies.
I used the Ne123w in my last build crossed at 180hz and it was very detailed. I was using the Sb mnrx12 version 2 prior and I like the Peerless better.
Ulrik Schmidt Scan-Speak Senior Engineer and Frank Nielsen Danish Sound Technology Senior Mechanical Engineer continued their work, designing all SB Acoustics drivers.
I would target drivers more suitable for IB use regardless of crossover point. The Peerless SBS-160F35AL01-04 for example, with mid Q and long stroke as well as some of SDS budget mids with a Q nearing .5
@Nerijus Kochanskas just a question of if such drivers would have better performance given the rising response vs EQ boosting a flatter driver like the Satori.
@@bosshawg7427 that will depend on the crossover frequency. A rising response might require a steeper crossover slope or more EQ work. There is nothing wrong with boosting when needed🤷🏻♂️
@Nerijus Kochanskas not against boosting, but there's denyjng that it eats up precious xmax. When I've used lower Q mids, you needed to boost considerably to overcome the 160-300hz range. This would take leveling down or or making EQ cuts above the target. Horses for courses, but it's why I don't target lower Q drivers ad much as I used to
I believe there are 2 versions of the Peerless 830875. The Later model is P830875 while the original model no P in the model # The differences are vc dia 1.25 vs 1.5 for the original model, this affects power handling 100 vs 75 rms, inductance etc... Several ppl who bought both said the new version cannot handle the same power their well used old ones do and actually have coil unwind I have MTMs I built with the original ones and Vifa XT25BG60-04. Playing then with 500 watts rms on tap of Crown power running full range with bass boosted slightly absolutely no issues in 1.8ft3 net ported tuned to 30 and run with 40hz tune sometimes for comparison, and no bottoming out smell or noise. Obviously I dont push 500 to them, but they are getting well over 200 when played hard. AMAZING drivers and I love the BG60s as well even though they are ring dome that is sensitive to off axis dips over 8 or 10k off axis. On axis they can be bright with some music. Best sounding speakers I have ever built
Mind sharing your cover design for the 875’s/BG60, I have 6 of the old ones and some bg60’s among tons of others….let me know and I’ll send you my email
@@BARBELLS-AND-BUDS oh, sorry about that. I didn’t go back and see that it switched. I put the X and then over. It must’ve switched to cover., so yeah “xover “ design
Авто/Мото
Finally which is best plz tell me
Very interested in your listening tests. I've always been a big fan of the Peerless drivers, I still have several and used one of their 12" subs in SQ competition several years ago.
the older 12 inch Woofers are still used in SQ or some who want accurate Bass for Homecinema or listening to music with sub, hard to get nowadays I think =)
Vas is not what you should look at for which is stiffer. Vas is dependent on many other parameters like Qms, size, winding height etc. etc. Compliance is the cleanest parameter to look for regarding stiffness. The lower the stiffer.
Regarding the 3rd distortion peak of the Peerless driver it's because of the hard plastic center and it will give a touch of disturbing edge to the sound.
The human ear is more sensitive to 3rd harmonic than 2nd.
With normal hearing we can detect 2nd distortion at 0,5-0,7% and 3rd at 0,2-0,3% so basically we are 6-9dB more sensivtive to 3rd.
The aim for the perfect driver is to have 6-9dB difference between 2nd and 3rd harmonics of distortion at listening level.
If 3rd is lower than that the driver will be a bit "soft" in character, and when the difference is less it tends to be "sharper" in character.
That's why you might perceive the 3rd harmonic peak of the peerless driver to add some edge or sharpness to the character.
The top end peak of the SB Acoustic driver will however be a much worse problem to solve.
Crossover point need to be at least 2 octave lower with a -12dB LP filter other wise it will give a peaky edgy sound that is creating listening fatigue.
The dip at 1.6k on the satori is due to the cone edge break up, it results in a little phase wiggle at that point… the mw16p cone is a better design geometrically, and the mw13/16tx textreme cone being very rigid carbon gets rid of it all together
Great, interesting and very informative. And by the way - fun, I mean the way you comment, it's very nice to watch. As for the conclusions - quite surprising. Expected more from Satori. It so happens that my main speakers are built on peerless(P830884+P831882 plus a tweeter from SB and I will not touch it). Except that they are peerless EX series (unfortunately more and more difficult to obtain) with a fixed phase plug, they also have a slightly higher efficiency than standard HDS and lower distortion - what are you looking for. If you get a chance to try this P831882 and others from the EX series, they are worth of it. And it's interesting how the underrated and cheap peerless match up with the "woow" rated Satori.
Thank you for the recomnedations, will look at those drivers👍
@@RAW-CAt Hard to find, unfotunately. I had to replace one of P831882 which was damaged during loudspeaker relocation during home renovation and had to buy them from Wagner(Australia). In general, the tendency/tradition of Peerless is that their best speakers become "discontinued". They released two brilliant tweeters, the DA25TX00-08 and DA32TX00-08 with a corundum diaphragm, calmly standing in line with the beryllium and diamond domes, but with massive, unprecedented cooling and capable of linear operation up to 1400hz without combining the waveguide. The whole DIY world practically didn't notice them (maybe they were too cheap :) but they went to many hi-end constructions for tens of thousands of euros :). And just a month ago, production ended, after only 3-4 years. Weird. Nevertheless - it is worth looking at the peerless offer because they have a lot of gems for pennies.
Hi - i used to work for Tymphany - would highly recommend the NE 123/149 drivers... Amazing
I used the Ne123w in my last build crossed at 180hz and it was very detailed. I was using the Sb mnrx12 version 2 prior and I like the Peerless better.
Ulrik Schmidt Scan-Speak Senior Engineer and Frank Nielsen Danish Sound Technology Senior Mechanical Engineer continued their work, designing all SB Acoustics drivers.
I would target drivers more suitable for IB use regardless of crossover point. The Peerless SBS-160F35AL01-04 for example, with mid Q and long stroke as well as some of SDS budget mids with a Q nearing .5
Thanks for the advice, I will look into your sugestions👍
@Nerijus Kochanskas just a question of if such drivers would have better performance given the rising response vs EQ boosting a flatter driver like the Satori.
@@bosshawg7427 that will depend on the crossover frequency. A rising response might require a steeper crossover slope or more EQ work. There is nothing wrong with boosting when needed🤷🏻♂️
@Nerijus Kochanskas not against boosting, but there's denyjng that it eats up precious xmax. When I've used lower Q mids, you needed to boost considerably to overcome the 160-300hz range. This would take leveling down or or making EQ cuts above the target. Horses for courses, but it's why I don't target lower Q drivers ad much as I used to
That Sb acoustics midbass i believe is the same as Arc audio black series car speakers. I think SB makes their speakers :-)
I read somewhere that SB makes like 30% of PA speakers globally... insane. I would guess similar numbers for HiFi drivers :D
I assume They use same magnet, but diffrent frame, connus, coil.
I believe there are 2 versions of the Peerless 830875. The Later model is P830875 while the original model no P in the model #
The differences are vc dia 1.25 vs 1.5 for the original model, this affects power handling 100 vs 75 rms, inductance etc...
Several ppl who bought both said the new version cannot handle the same power their well used old ones do and actually have coil unwind
I have MTMs I built with the original ones and Vifa XT25BG60-04.
Playing then with 500 watts rms on tap of Crown power running full range with bass boosted slightly absolutely no issues in 1.8ft3 net ported tuned to 30 and run with 40hz tune sometimes for comparison, and no bottoming out smell or noise.
Obviously I dont push 500 to them, but they are getting well over 200 when played hard.
AMAZING drivers and I love the BG60s as well even though they are ring dome that is sensitive to off axis dips over 8 or 10k off axis. On axis they can be bright with some music.
Best sounding speakers I have ever built
Mind sharing your cover design for the 875’s/BG60, I have 6 of the old ones and some bg60’s among tons of others….let me know and I’ll send you my email
@@stopher1971 IDK what you mean by cover design, but Ill help you if I can
@@BARBELLS-AND-BUDS oh, sorry about that. I didn’t go back and see that it switched. I put the X and then over. It must’ve switched to cover., so yeah “xover “ design
That bluescreen was priceless lmaooo
😁