1:08:00 I tutor college physics and this is a big issue even in academics. The best way I've found to pace your response to questions is to respond with "how would you approach the problem?" then the tutee responds with "well you.... but I dont see how to apply this, or I get lost going to this step" and then both the tutor and the tutee are focused in on the exact crux of the question. Also Zen asks "do you have any questions?" when its better to ask "what questions do you have?". Small difference, but when there is a difference in position between a teacher and a student, the first one can lead to stonewalling because the student is afraid to waste the teacher's time or look stupid, whereas the second one engages in that grey area thinking since they are asked to sift through the info for anything noteworthy, and that can cause more productive dialogues. overall, coaches should look into active learning techniques instead of lecturing since most of the lecture will be missed without the proper frame of mind. Challenge the tutee with hypotheticals, questions, and discussions rather than letting them get by being a passive recipient.
As a tennis coach I totally agree. How you present your information and the way you encourage questions is what separates a decent and a good coach. One of my mentors once told me "the best coaches have thr students teach themselves, you just give them all the info to do so". All I can say is Zen has so many good points, but it took him 15 min to go on a tangent that he himself doesn't want his student to delve into, without properly presenting the best options and engaging his student concisely
I agree completely. I think one of the biggest problems i have seen in the little coaching I’ve watched which has mostly been of LS, and i feel this guy has a lot of the same mannerisms/ issues, is with delivery. That is to say that the information they are saying may or may not be good but the way that it is given results in little actual learning. I definitely agree that coaches could benefit from learning about learning/ teaching style to improve in this facet.
I completely agree, I tutored math in college and I think you're absolutely right. You never want to abruptly ask "do you have any questions", because 10 times out of 10 the student will kind of hesitantly respond "no". Same thing applies with asking "does that make sense?" immediately after finishing a sentence - you have to give the student time to process what you just said. It may be crystal clear to you, but for them it's brand new territory and they have to mull it over and evaluate it. "What questions do you have" is a great alternative because it sort of subconsciously signals that you are expecting them to have questions; they almost feel an obligation to ask something, which is what they probably wanted to do anyways. But asking "do you have any questions" is like asking "do you get it yet or are you still dumb?" - obviously you're probably not trying to insult them, but that's how it comes across subconsciously for the student. As an alternative to asking "did that make sense", I used to say "did the way I explained that make sense, or would you like me to explain it a different way?" Saying that communicates to the student that it may not be their fault that they didn't understand, and it may actually be the tutor's fault for not explaining it well. It also signals that the tutor is already feeling that they may not have explained it well, so it is easier for the student to agree with them. I found that a lot of time, the student would kind of laugh and admit that the way I explained something didn't make sense to them, and then I would immediately follow with "okay no worries, I thought I might have explained it poorly, let me try a different way". This helps to disarm some of the tension the student may be feeling about being tutored, since you're admitting that you're not "perfect" either. I think tutors want to maintain this sense of omni-knowledge because they want to appear competent to the student, but I have personally found that that can work against you by making you appear sort of "out of reach" for the student. They start to view you as this sort of unattainable standard, and that erects a barrier in their mind that will make it much harder for them to learn from you. Appearing human to them is a great strategy, imo
@@frogmanxbl7129 You hit the nail on the head. Good teaching, and communication for that matter, has a lot to do with being approachable and opening yourself up to being responded to. I wonder why this style of coaching or tutoring isn't more common? I think research would back me up on this, but anecdotally having people actively search out questions about a topic is 1.) less stressful for the students and the teacher 2.) Increases their ability to remember the concepts (even if the questions go unanswered) 3.) allows for you to improve as a coach/teacher faster. I imagine quizzes or even certain homework assignments would be more effective if they included a short answer portion that goes along the lines of "What is one question you have about [insert lesson title]?"
I liked Nemesis being here because LS is reviewing the validity of the coach's arguments while Nemesis can critique how the information is conveyed and how effective a teacher the guy is.
Tried to explain what I was watching to my dad. "It's a guy who is commenting another guy who is coaching a third guy who is playing a game that I like to play."
@@VivaAlmaviva Next time try "Watching a guy watch another guy teaching one more guy how to get better at a game" or "Watching a coach coaching another coach while he's coaching someone else"
My mind was blown when he said "Dopa doesn't do this" with no further reasoning as to why he thinks the Q is bad. With that said, I respect the guy for giving LS and Nemesis permission to criticize and analyze his coaching. It shows willing to improve, and in this community, it shows courage.
@@leonardoescribano Ahh, you're right, my bad! Still, as a coach, I don't think you should ever be bringing up other players in that context. And thanks for correcting me! :)
First time seeing this guy he was critizing Uzi alot for weird things while it legit said he was D1 right on his screen. Not saying you shouldnt listen to him at all but I think he could at least put things a little bit more openly and not like a fact. Still really nice alot of his coaching are free for everyone.
@@devilix123987 i thinks its good to talk about other players to your client. Best example: who is your role model in league? Client: faker. You: OK then let's see if we can find a faker game and see what he does different than you. BTW, zen does this in some adc coaching with uzi. Yet I have to agree it made no sense here.
I don't play League anymore, but I watch your channel religiously. Listening to both of you guys break stuff down is fascinating, and I wish you guys would make more of it. The one thing I would ask is that you and Nemesis make a video on how your knowledge of the game has improved over time and what were some of the biggest hurdles you've had in your coaching and analytical career. Also what are some things that you still find tough to grapple with as you continue to master your understanding of the game and players psychology. Thanks!
@@abyst4754 it's an episode of gordon ramsey's show "Kitchen Nightmares" in which he visits struggling restaurants and tries to help them. In this case the owners of "Amy's baking company" were arrogant and ignorant to any criticism and the whole episode was a dumpsterfire which resulted in gordon just leaving, which he had not done before up to that point.
Hey man at least you are humble! Most people in Twitch Chat and Reddit are "secret" pros but their teams hold them back in iron, bronze, silver, gold, plat, etc.
I think evaluation of coaches is something we almost never see in the league scene and it'll for sure be good in the long run. I really hope coaches can take away something from any criticism they get and improve their services.
It's good to always question things. For me, I question how good the coaches are in Golden Guardians because the progression has gone down with all the players. It appears that the players are just playing pro games like it's solo que and the team looks like it has zero coordination or macro.
@@gologotha7922 I agree to an extend, but only using results to evaluate a coaches performance takes away a lot of variables and nuance that should be taken into account as well imo and isn't the best way to improve coaching.
@@abyst4754 i mean i'm pretty sure he does like 2 x1 farm+poke, you can be right about him not using itfor just the wave tho, that be weird when trying to push tho
@@elrumstoke if we imagine the lane as 64 squares I should have clicked on d5 to get control of the center and look to play the tyler1 gambit with d6 d7 d8
Great content, unfortunately chat was very toxic during. Will most likely discourage future coaches from putting themselves out there. Props to Zen for the effort.
I feel like (or at least I hope so) the attitude in the community is shifting in the sense that it is fine to criticize someone on a contentual level and that it is okay to be wrong on that level as well. Unfortunately so far people are quick to jump on a witch hunt when the person they like criticizes someone, but hopefully the new normal will be that people actually engage in these conversations and debates as this is the only way people actually learn something and coaches / analysts can actually improve. Glad LS is putting a lot of effort into this topic and glad he isn't abusing his position. It would probably be a super free content and money goldmine to just watch league edu content, shit on it, let the mob do it's thing and farm some primes while at it. Really shows how bs the typical accusations towards him and his co-streams are, that he would just hate on everything to farm content.
@@MauriceGucci I know LS doesn't like doing it but should probs have sub only chat or smth during these kind of streams. That or emote only so it is equal to everyone
This is the biggest issue I have with some coaches atm, the player ends up bombarded with so much overly specific information rather than good general advice that can applied in multiple games. Was nice to see it being pointed out. When the coach asks for feedback on the information it's almost always going to be replied with 'I understand' because the player is still trying to process the mountain of information that's been thrown at him.
Omg and there are players who pay for this shit ???? dude i need to start couching then.....I will really love to find this Zen or wtf name he have in me games and to play like this agresive vs me :)) is crazy how ppls are paying for stupid information
@@terrificlife1576 I don't care about the aggressive gameplay, will just go to the correct elo but the aggressive and cruel coaching is just demoralizing and not empowering at all.
@@Brian-wy2od wasnt said with that context tho. He just wanted to use faker/dopa to reinforce his points. "Have u laned against faker? He does this and this and basically you should too." In case the player said yes, he would say "So you have seen first hand what these small things can achieve ."
I love this. The fact that Zen provided permission is even better. To see my favorite coach review my second favorite coach's coaching was something I have been waiting for for a long time. To be fair, watching Zen and LS's coaching videos have helped me a lot as a player going from Bronze to Diamond in my first season in League playing top lane. The focus on fundamentals for both has allowed me to slow down the game and evaluate each and every decision I make in my ranked games rather than focusing on the actions of my teammates. Thank you for doing this LS and thank you for providing your permission Zen. It takes a lot of effort to produce content like this and I am infinitely grateful. Also, props to Zen for putting yourself out there and showing that you are willing to take criticism on your content and use it as an opportunity for improvement, which takes a lot of guts to do, combined with the fact that doing so shows that you really care about the game, the player base and are willing to make sure that the information you are providing in your content is correct. While I am sad that LS no longer coaches publicly, anyone who would like to improve at the game and get rid of their teammate-blaming mindset should check out the videos from both coaches as they not only show, but also explain why only what you do in game matters and allow you to eliminate any toxic mindset or negative assumptions you have about the game.
Zen is a terrible coach. Not because of his league of legends knowledge; I dont care about that really. Hes a horrendous example of what coaching should be, in ANY field. You already have your mind made up, so Im not even going to try to "convince you", but I more or less just want to say it is all. This video is more or less a bullshit example of his actual usual demeanor and personality. Also, when you say things like "bronze to diamond in my first season" its realllllllly incredulous and completely discredits literally anything you say without some basis of proof. Post that op.gg, show your progression videos, show your progress, but claiming bronze to diamond your first season playing is generally going to be looked at as completely bullshit lol. The problem fundamentally is that if you really were that prodigious, you wouldnt arbitrarily stop at diamond lol. That or you got carried by your master tier friend who guided and controlled your every action. Theres almost no scenario where a person can start playing league fresh and climb to diamond in one season all by themselves.
@@Kindahl1 I think it is more or less LS publicizing his critisms of someone's coaching for content. All while that someone is a fan. LS isn't wrong to state his opinions unfortunately these criticisms do less to help Zen improve, more than likely effect his credibility. Edit: After looking around more, it looks like Zen expressed permission. That completely changes this. This means Zen is ready to receive criticism as well as this becomes a video to help other coaches learn on behalf of Zen's mistakes.
@@PosionNec yeah but isn’t that scary? Like he didn’t know that he was not able to coaching properly since he didn’t understand the game at that high level. Which means he didn’t do proper research
@@poisonvolkswagon9431 Because unknown unknowns is hard to gage. He didn't know his understanding of the game was flawed. It wasn't UNTIL he asked for feedback that he realized he was making mistakes. I applaud him for putting himself out there. I have been grilled in other videos about my game play in league and it's eye opening. My only issue with Zen is his coaching "voice". His word usage and speech patterns sounds so similar to LS that I naturally default to thinking "this guy is a discount LS". Now this maybe just the way he talks, but my gut tells me his is mimicking LS's coaching style. I would encourage him to finding his own "voice" similar to if you watch VeigarV2's coaching or Veteran's coaching they cover the same concepts as LS but in their own words and coaching style.
Call to authority should just never be an argument in coaching. Understanding the "why is someone else doing it?" is way more important than "that someone is doing it".
Again, depends on who your coaching, low elo players have no understanding of the games yet and they need small stuff to repeat to themselves, look at neace for exemple
@@samuelallard141 It literally doesn't matter who you are coaching. You never use another player to justify actions. "Dopa doesn't do this so you shouldn't either" -style. Even mentioning Dopa is pointless. You can explain why a move is bad or good without ever mentioning any other players. Mentioning that one good player is just a way to try to create false credibility.
@@beiggo21 I mean, for a low elo players it might be better to just tell them "listen, i can't teach you ins and outs of laning because thats out of your reach now, so you can try an follow what someone else does". If you try to explain to gold/plat players stuff the way LS does their brain is just going to melt. That said, it wasn't good in this case since he is coaching challanger/amateur lvl player.
@@bartoszbartosiewicz1123 No, you didn't understand what we were saying. Telling a player that they should watch another player to improve is completely fine fine, even for challengers. However, it's not ok to say that a play is good because a certain player is doing it or bad because a certain player is not doing it. Those are different things.
@@beiggo21 Yeah, particularly because even the best players in the world have particular aspects of their play-style that are weaker than certain players who have overall less skill.
@@mr_penguin3725 I don't like this. It would cause a debate to happen if Zen isn't open to listening. I think it's better to just give criticism this way because then there doesn't have to be that dialogue when it can just be a reactionary way of learning rather then a peer to peer discussion which would probably be beneficial but not really optimal.
@mohamed osama no it would help let him talk about why he thinks that way maybe he has a point maybe he doesnt we ll never know , its not controversy its just a normal debate between two povs we ll understand more what they both think and why they think its right instead of just one pov ^^
@@pittaaaabread i mean idk if he's not open to listening i assumed he is cause why would he ask for a review ? obviously he wants to improve so it makes sence for him to listen
@@mr_penguin3725 Yes but being told something to your face vs over a video that you can pause and think over are 2 completely different things. It's much easier this way because zen can pause and actually put the principles that LS and Nemesis are saying into action to see if they're right or not. On top of that he can do it at his own discretion and there will be 0 bias vs if they had an argument which would make a close minded person almost impossible to convince. I think that a discussion is great but clearly flawed and not the best way for what Zen wanted out of LS and Nemesis. Also sorry for my poor grammar in some cases. I'm still learning English but I hope I was able to get my point across.
He talks a little too quickly which can occasionally make what he is saying confusing to follow. Definitely feel like he needs to slow down to make what he is saying is clearer and easier to follow.
The best of the best always know they have a lot to learn and never stop trying to be better. This was awesome form so many different points of view since it's just people trying to get better at what they are passionate about... be it playing, coaching, creating content etc... it's just nice top see people taking criticism willingly to get better and not taking things as a personal attack but opportunity to improve!
If you think Zen is the "Best of the best", I have bad news for you. I dont even care about his knowledge (or lack thereof) about league of legends. His ability and effectiveness from purely a coaching perspective is one of the poorest displays imaginable. I genuinely dont understand where his relative popularity even comes from.
8:37 Actually yes there is Nemesis, if you auto vel like he's saying they agro you, you then run back (not too fast) and the minions will chase you to the middle of the lane, it's a really hard trick to do but if this is what the coach is discussing I agree with him, and if he had fast killed the first 3 this truck with casters is impossible. But I still don't know if that's a wave state you want with Ori vs Vel, as an Irelia or something with all in threat this is very ideal and I use it myself if I can.
When you say you have to pretend to believe what he’s saying for a moment, it’s called giving someone the benefit of the doubt. I think this is a great idea and wish more people did this
Hey LS, have you ever though of using the chess term zugzwang. It means "its ur turn to do something, but every choice is losing" It could be used in league if (for example), you shove into tower and start a fight in jg. If the laner moves they lose cs to tower, and if they stay their jg falls behind. Your actions put them in zugzwang.
Your example would be more akin to a fork. Your definition for zugzwang is correct, but League is not turn based you can technically do nothing. Although literally doing nothing is bad, we can instead consider doing nothing as inaction. If we alter the definition of zugzwang for league to "any decision outside of the neutral/current course of action is losing" I think it would make more sense. For example, if 2 junglers are just full clearing and there are no gank opportunities that have a higher payoff than the opportunity cost, any action outside of full clearing is inferior, thus both junglers are in zugzwang.
@@BoyMuggy but league is turn based. In higher levels, certain plays/moves and responses become predictable enough that it becomes like playing a turn based game. It’s just like when ls draws the lines and talks about ori moves up, then velloz moves right and ori retreats
Zen Coaching is a nice guy not only for uploading most of his stuff for free online, but also for letting you evaluate him publicly. Really gotta respect him for that and for wanting to improve. And I swear to god if any Silver guy here starts flaming Zen, because LS and Nemesis criticized the stuff Zen said in a video, then I'm absolutely losing it. Odds are 99.9% of this comment section knows less about the game and has done less for League edu content than Zen. The guy is doing everything with good intentions, the fact that he asked LS to evaluate him (after the last guy got a shit storm) shows that once again. Nobody is perfect, I mean even LS is wrong 99% of the time. Long story short: no hate towards Zen pls, shoutout to Zen for doing this and thank you LS for doing content like this, I enjoy it a lot.
eh, I once paid a bunch of money for his coaching and he did a double coaching with one of his subcoaches without asking me and all they did was joke with each other while barely paying attention to my gameplay. He even told me afterwards that his subcoach was just saying bullshit a few times
I am just going to say that if he really wants to be a coach, he needs to learn that the moment a teacher humiliates his student, the lesson stops there and he’s not going to ever learn anything.
@@lobontz12002 that's not entirely true. Even if you disagree with them, you have to understand that coaches are coming from a place of wanting to help you improve. Completely shutting off your brain when someone "humiliates" you (however the fuck you get humiliated by your league gameplay, jfc)
I gotta say I love how lately most ppl LS streams with are sort of in the same footing as him, so to speak. It doesn't feel like he's better than the person he's talking to or worse, and they actually get to discuss shit and point out things the other might've missed
@@valentinewiggin9705 This is likely you and not Zen's content, you put in the time and effort and his content helped a bit along the way. I don't think it got you to Masters I think it helped you in the middle tiers but kind of stopped helping around D3 which is great but I can agree with Seals619 but would rephrase it to something different. He has the knowledge to coach low-middle tier players but d2+ won't be helped that much (FROM MY FIRST IMPRESSION CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG).
@@Thetoxicpeaceful1 yeah well, ofc I had to put in the time. I basically learned from him the lane fundamentals, the mouse clicking speed, the camera control, and jg tracking, after that it was just me following his advice of watching vods and just overall limiting my champion pool to 3 max. Tbh he mostly taught me how to know how to climb if that makes sense.
"You should have AERHGLAIERUGHEA, you should have QWOIUGHCALEGU instead so you AWEUIHADIUGH, do you have any questions?" Pro or not, I think Zen just slowing down is all around a good thing for both parties. I never got that Vibe from LS nor his previous coaching videos, he's always easy to follow because he articulates well.
Well I just started getting back into league after five years out thanks to wild rift . I was always a huge fan of LS , he is however one of the smartest and most intelligent people I have ever known. Glad to know he is still going strong. He is a beautiful human being. Nice videos too
Theres a fundamental oversight that people box in players "knowledge" at certain ranks. "Oh hes silver, he cant possibly know blah blah". This is fundamentally incorrect. ESPECIALLY with the amount of available information out on youtube alone, people at any rank can learn "what to do". Its having the ability to parse the information out correctly, apply it at the right time in the right way, and knowing why you are doing is the difference between high elo and low elo. A bronze iv player can know what a freeze is and a basic idea of how to do one. A silver IV player can know you should do a "certain thing" just fine. The separation becomes "why" are you doing this? Are you able to fundamentally perform this when you are supposed to? Theres also an interesting thing where its REALLY easy to see someone ELSES mistakes, but not your own. This is why reviewing games is so so important. Dont "lose a game" then immediately "review it". Wait a day. You will be biased and tilted (good OR bad) and wont be effective to yourself. Also, this is going to sound retarded, but reviewing WINS is FAR more important than reviewing losses. Why? Because if you over extend level 2 and die, then you go back to lane; cs like shit because youre put behind, then get ganked and die again, then play on the back foot the rest of the time, youre not going to learn too too much by reviewing shit you already know went wrong. When you review losses, you need to pay attention to specific areas you could have taken advantage of, not "what you did wrong". WINS? People almost never review their wins because "I played great and that game went well". No. ESPECIALLY in lower elos this is so so so so wrong. SO many people NEVER realize they didnt win because they "played well", they won because their opponents played like shit... or they didnt get punished in certain scenarios.. or their teamates facilitated them to play well, not because they used their own skill. Also, when you do win, you can affirm things you ARE doing well. Seriously, review your wins. Silver players can know the "Whats" of league just as well as a diamond player can. Doesnt necessarily mean they "do" (likely not!), but dont be dismissive of what you actually know in comparison to someone else. Learn. Get better. Play better. It doesnt matter or mean anything that someone in challenger is better than you. (real tip if you want to rank up in solo queue... stop playing "For the team". Never play "for the team". Be selfish. Playing "For the team" means you are coinflipping if your team is actually going to play well or not. Playing for yourself? You can ALWAYS rely on that. This doesnt mean be an asshole mind you... Im happy to explain this further if youd like)
@@calzimer "Dude" I was saying that you are entirely capable and have the capacity to know and understand things that your rank doesnt necessarily reflect. Pardon me for assuming you had a brain, my bad.
Although this content might be quite dense, it is super useful for people learning the game as well as learning how to identify useful coaching. I hope you guys do more stuff like this. Great job, keep it up, proud of you.
It should be about more than just guidelines and paths. They also need to documenting their progression. To make sure that they are doing more than just thinking they are applying the guidelines and paths.
Finally got around to watching this in its entirety. I'd just like to say that I appreciate that the channel will feature some long-form content like this. When the channel swapped over to T1's content, I was afraid of the content trending toward ~10 min. videos to garner clicks instead of the long play stuff. Seeing this type of video will keep my subscription going. Thanks.
i enjoyed this a lot when i watched it live gives a lot of insight on edu content in league and where it has to improve, hope you can do more content like this
Hey LS, not sure if you are gonna end up reading this but I wanted to say this video was a lot better than the one on coach Curtis which I remember you vaguely criticising him personally over his ideas (I might be wrong but I remember feeling uncomfortable when watching that video, I apologise if this is inaccurate). The only other thing I would add is to expand on the ideas you mention like why can't you cheater recall on some champions etc. Thank you for the content as always.
Playing with a Coach is like: When an anime character is about to punch his opponent then the analysis frame suddenly popped up and that punch actually landed on the next episode
I think he's saying that if you know the matchup properly, you can punish pro players in lane because even they make mistakes. BTW I love your commentary and analysis LS
Despite this being a critique coaching is really difficult people have varied approaches to how they learn and understand concepts, ideas and moments differently. So any toxicity from chat and comments etc is really undeserved
Really interesting content LS, been wondering what your thoughts were on the things he tell high elo players. Also very pleased that it was uploaded to RUclips since I can't always be there for the stream. Thank you LS.
I applaud Zen for putting himself out there. It's not easy putting yourself publicly. I have been grilled publicly in other RUclips videos about my own game play in league and it's eye opening experience. It is eye opening due to listening to the coach's feedback and how hard the community likes to "dogpile" on mistakes regardless if they can even understand half the shit the coach is talking about. My only issue with Zen is his coaching "voice". His word usage and speech patterns sounds so similar to LS that I naturally default to thinking "this guy is a discount LS". Now this maybe just the way he talks, but my gut tells me his is mimicking LS's coaching style. I would encourage him to finding his own "voice" similar to if you watch VeigarV2's coaching or Veteran's coaching they cover the similar concepts as LS but in they use their own words and coaching style.
1) Zen "puts himself out there" daily. 2) this video used is not even close to a real example of Zen's average coaching session 3) Its REAL easy to get free publicity from your friend that has millions of people looking at him and has hundreds of thousands of direct followers. I DO hope this was to actually be used to learn and grow, but given Zen's nature and demeanor, this absolutely piss poor example of his actual personality and "coaching" sessions; it makes me really wonder if this is purely just for publicity. I really really hope not, but its way too plausible.
@@JgHaverty do you have examples that are counter to the one he provided? Or do you have any experience working with the guy? Maybe I’m miss reading but you don’t seem to view Zen too highly.
@@gologotha7922 "Maybe I’m miss reading but you don’t seem to view Zen too highly." Im fairly confident I made that abundantly clear lol. I absolutely dislike him, I think hes a terrible coach, and hes incredibly disrespectful and demeaning to his students on a shockingly frequent basis. That said, Im not running hate campaigns, posting on twitter or reddit about it, or going through his videos and trash talking. This particular video that is directly in feedback to his actual coaching is a fair and legitimate place to post these opinions. Yes its an opinion. No its not biased by anyone elses judgements, these are my own thoughts. That said; they arent "made up" or stemmed from nowhere; that seems rather ridiculous to do, no? But yes, I can provide examples; Im about to take my wife to the doctors office here in a minute, but when I get back; yeah I have no problem showing you what Im talking about. That said; its not super difficult to find either. I actually appreciate your approach; a lot honestly. Food for thought though -> LS only mentions the "AMOUNT" of coaching Zen has; not one time does mention the "QUALITY" of his coaching, nor speak of his capabilities of such. Does doing something " a lot" make you inherently good at it? Mostly rhetorical here, but youre welcome to answer.
@@gologotha7922 Oh, btw... are you... not aware of why Zen is taking a "2 month break? If not I can summarize it for you -> He was unable to climb on his main account because he spent too much time selling boosted accounts for money (illegal btw), making content and "personal reasons" (his words). WELL, he was diamond 2 on his main a little while ago, and managed to get his account PERMANENTLY BANNED for toxic behavior. He didn't publicly disclose this until a short while ago. Well, despite his claims of "financial struggles" and "personal setbacks and issues" and "unable to afford rent"... somehow he managed to scrape up enough money to buy a MASTER PLACED ACCOUNT. Now, usually this would be almost 1000$, but Id guess he has connections with other sellers so he probably didnt pay nearly as much. Just something to think about; him selling boosted accounts like that is not only "morally wrong" (I mean I dont REALLY care honestly... just sucks getting a silver 2 player on a purchased account on your team lol) but its actually straight up illegal in toronto lol.
@@gologotha7922 hollllyyyy shit... Dude he's removed a LOT of his coaching sessions from his youtube channel. Hes also removed ALL of his videos on twitch. Well, obviously you should be able to read between the lines a little bit, but this basically means I have to rely on "trust me"; which I know is honestly crap. www.twitch.tv/zencoaching/videos Like ... Im kind of at a loss for words here...
One way to vastly improve these videos is let the person completely finish their point of view before commenting even if what's being said is egregious
So, we (e-sports) finally reach the point of professionalism where we suffer from the same problems like traditional industries do. Coaching, generally speaking, has very little empirical evidence of it's efficacy that goes beyond the placebo effect of personalized one on one attention. And I highly suppose that is because it is terribly difficult to achieve a sufficient interrater agreement to actually positively impact the coachees performance. This video is a beautiful example of how different two (decorated) coaches see the game. However, this kind of is the vital spirit of sports: we just love to discuss because everybody knows it better :D Keep the viewers interested.
@39:11 They talk about kha ganking but, before even considering him doing that they already saw that he went for raptors second which means he needs 2 more camps to get level 3 so ganking and invading are out of the question
19 mins into the video and ori is still lv1 .. i just felt like this guy wanna talk about every single detail he possibly can .. good thing he didn't criticize Orianna's skin.
This is honestly really scary. As someone who just doesn't recognize the things that LS/Nemesis do, I have no way of checking whether a coach like this is right or wrong. It makes me scared to accept help or advice in a lot of ways...
as a general advice NEVER pay for "coaching" of any sort unless the person who is gonna coach you has some real credentials behind, and even then I for sure would not recommend you to spend any money on a coach for a freaking videogame, reality is there isn't a single pro player that has needed coaching to get where they are, which means that if you are in a position to need it you most definetely are not going to make it.
@@rogersole8458 That's a really fkn dumb take man. You can't improve if you're making the same mistakes over and over while thinking you're doing okay, that's where a coach can be a very valuable resource and anyone can be a pro player if they put enough effort into it.
If you don't recognize the things LS or Nemesis are talking about until after they mention it, then it means even what Zen's saying will help you, because while it may not be the best way to play the lane, it still is probably better than what you're currently doing, and for free coaching that's good enough for me, because after you know these sorts of things exist, you can start telling yourself which action and chain of events is more optimal for you depending on the situation.
@@rogersole8458 forgets to mention that pro players don't stay in the scene without a dedicated coach (or 2) and at least 1 dedicated analyst for the team. So yes, but also no.
@@primedember5249 how's that a dumb take bro? All I'm saying is it's a waste of money to pay for someone to coach you at a level where you can find tons of free content all over the place, especially considering most of these "coaches" will not teach you shit
I appreciate how honest Ls & Nemesis we’re, strictly speaking on the basis of learning, if they were not to criticize him as hard he would not have anything to learn about his own coaching. But as a silver player the entire first hour of the video kind of fried my league mental. I did learn how to play ori in the first 3-6 levels though. xD I love the content however I wish more coaches would ask you to review them.
I'm 28 min in this video and I can say that he is right on the agression theme if orianna had corrupting pot Because she would just perma poke with her ball beging the enemy caster minions and control the wave just with her basic And each time she wanna take an extended poke she pop corrupting But in this case ls is right for competitive level especially the early poke that doesn't matter if your goal is to get a cheater with cull (because you have the push on velkoz early)
The winner here is the player, triple coaching
Actually a bargain.
Very meta
@@mrnoxusyz5378 dormamu?
Its like a buy one; get one for free coaching session xD
he got every penny worth xD from the coaching for sure
"Have you seen Dopa?" ...the better question is: "Have you seen Gross Gore?"
Best TF world bruv
bruv kekw
regi doesn't do that he never red cards
Name a better tf than him , bruv kek
Even better question : Have you seen the sexual predator and scammer?
1:08:00 I tutor college physics and this is a big issue even in academics. The best way I've found to pace your response to questions is to respond with "how would you approach the problem?" then the tutee responds with "well you.... but I dont see how to apply this, or I get lost going to this step" and then both the tutor and the tutee are focused in on the exact crux of the question.
Also Zen asks "do you have any questions?" when its better to ask "what questions do you have?". Small difference, but when there is a difference in position between a teacher and a student, the first one can lead to stonewalling because the student is afraid to waste the teacher's time or look stupid, whereas the second one engages in that grey area thinking since they are asked to sift through the info for anything noteworthy, and that can cause more productive dialogues.
overall, coaches should look into active learning techniques instead of lecturing since most of the lecture will be missed without the proper frame of mind. Challenge the tutee with hypotheticals, questions, and discussions rather than letting them get by being a passive recipient.
As a tennis coach I totally agree. How you present your information and the way you encourage questions is what separates a decent and a good coach. One of my mentors once told me "the best coaches have thr students teach themselves, you just give them all the info to do so". All I can say is Zen has so many good points, but it took him 15 min to go on a tangent that he himself doesn't want his student to delve into, without properly presenting the best options and engaging his student concisely
I agree completely. I think one of the biggest problems i have seen in the little coaching I’ve watched which has mostly been of LS, and i feel this guy has a lot of the same mannerisms/ issues, is with delivery. That is to say that the information they are saying may or may not be good but the way that it is given results in little actual learning. I definitely agree that coaches could benefit from learning about learning/ teaching style to improve in this facet.
I completely agree, I tutored math in college and I think you're absolutely right. You never want to abruptly ask "do you have any questions", because 10 times out of 10 the student will kind of hesitantly respond "no". Same thing applies with asking "does that make sense?" immediately after finishing a sentence - you have to give the student time to process what you just said. It may be crystal clear to you, but for them it's brand new territory and they have to mull it over and evaluate it. "What questions do you have" is a great alternative because it sort of subconsciously signals that you are expecting them to have questions; they almost feel an obligation to ask something, which is what they probably wanted to do anyways. But asking "do you have any questions" is like asking "do you get it yet or are you still dumb?" - obviously you're probably not trying to insult them, but that's how it comes across subconsciously for the student.
As an alternative to asking "did that make sense", I used to say "did the way I explained that make sense, or would you like me to explain it a different way?" Saying that communicates to the student that it may not be their fault that they didn't understand, and it may actually be the tutor's fault for not explaining it well. It also signals that the tutor is already feeling that they may not have explained it well, so it is easier for the student to agree with them. I found that a lot of time, the student would kind of laugh and admit that the way I explained something didn't make sense to them, and then I would immediately follow with "okay no worries, I thought I might have explained it poorly, let me try a different way". This helps to disarm some of the tension the student may be feeling about being tutored, since you're admitting that you're not "perfect" either. I think tutors want to maintain this sense of omni-knowledge because they want to appear competent to the student, but I have personally found that that can work against you by making you appear sort of "out of reach" for the student. They start to view you as this sort of unattainable standard, and that erects a barrier in their mind that will make it much harder for them to learn from you. Appearing human to them is a great strategy, imo
@@frogmanxbl7129 You hit the nail on the head. Good teaching, and communication for that matter, has a lot to do with being approachable and opening yourself up to being responded to. I wonder why this style of coaching or tutoring isn't more common?
I think research would back me up on this, but anecdotally having people actively search out questions about a topic is 1.) less stressful for the students and the teacher 2.) Increases their ability to remember the concepts (even if the questions go unanswered) 3.) allows for you to improve as a coach/teacher faster. I imagine quizzes or even certain homework assignments would be more effective if they included a short answer portion that goes along the lines of "What is one question you have about [insert lesson title]?"
Agree with a comment, hello from a fellow physicist
I liked Nemesis being here because LS is reviewing the validity of the coach's arguments while Nemesis can critique how the information is conveyed and how effective a teacher the guy is.
I disagree. It didn't seem like Nemesis offered much more than saying "I agree"
@@BehPoker I disagree.
Tried to explain what I was watching to my dad. "It's a guy who is commenting another guy who is coaching a third guy who is playing a game that I like to play."
Welll... did he get it
@@AltBadin don't think so. He didn't respond and left the room in silence.
@@VivaAlmaviva Next time try "Watching a guy watch another guy teaching one more guy how to get better at a game"
or
"Watching a coach coaching another coach while he's coaching someone else"
@@AltBadin true^^ that would have been better :)
'Are you winning son?' KEKW
My mind was blown when he said "Dopa doesn't do this" with no further reasoning as to why he thinks the Q is bad.
With that said, I respect the guy for giving LS and Nemesis permission to criticize and analyze his coaching. It shows willing to improve, and in this community, it shows courage.
That was not the only reasoning he gave. He explained why the Q was bad afterwards. I don't agree with him tho.
@@leonardoescribano Ahh, you're right, my bad! Still, as a coach, I don't think you should ever be bringing up other players in that context. And thanks for correcting me! :)
@@devilix123987 yeah i agree
First time seeing this guy he was critizing Uzi alot for weird things while it legit said he was D1 right on his screen. Not saying you shouldnt listen to him at all but I think he could at least put things a little bit more openly and not like a fact.
Still really nice alot of his coaching are free for everyone.
@@devilix123987 i thinks its good to talk about other players to your client.
Best example: who is your role model in league?
Client: faker.
You: OK then let's see if we can find a faker game and see what he does different than you.
BTW, zen does this in some adc coaching with uzi.
Yet I have to agree it made no sense here.
I don't play League anymore, but I watch your channel religiously. Listening to both of you guys break stuff down is fascinating, and I wish you guys would make more of it. The one thing I would ask is that you and Nemesis make a video on how your knowledge of the game has improved over time and what were some of the biggest hurdles you've had in your coaching and analytical career. Also what are some things that you still find tough to grapple with as you continue to master your understanding of the game and players psychology.
Thanks!
Amy's baking company. That's one horrid video I want to forget
thats a surprisingly specific reference that im glad i got.
what vid is that
@@abyst4754 it's an episode of gordon ramsey's show "Kitchen Nightmares" in which he visits struggling restaurants and tries to help them. In this case the owners of "Amy's baking company" were arrogant and ignorant to any criticism and the whole episode was a dumpsterfire which resulted in gordon just leaving, which he had not done before up to that point.
OOHHH, I just remembered it. Yeah big rip
why do you have to make the people remember, pepepains
Time for my Gold brain to get Fried.
lmao well said
LMAOOOO TRUEEEE
Couldnt said it better xd
Hey man at least you are humble! Most people in Twitch Chat and Reddit are "secret" pros but their teams hold them back in iron, bronze, silver, gold, plat, etc.
i can tell you now, my gold 2 brain is fried 8 mins in
I think evaluation of coaches is something we almost never see in the league scene and it'll for sure be good in the long run. I really hope coaches can take away something from any criticism they get and improve their services.
It really opened my eyes when LS talked about the credibility of many of the current coaches on the scene and how we don't really question it
It's good to always question things. For me, I question how good the coaches are in Golden Guardians because the progression has gone down with all the players. It appears that the players are just playing pro games like it's solo que and the team looks like it has zero coordination or macro.
@@gologotha7922 I agree to an extend, but only using results to evaluate a coaches performance takes away a lot of variables and nuance that should be taken into account as well imo and isn't the best way to improve coaching.
hello endo
@@gantive8163 lol hi, what’s up man
Guy on orianna just got coaching for free from LS and Nemesis Pog xD
yeh deserves it or atleast a refund from zen
@@withaustn3463 have you watched the video? Look at what he says around 24:30
@@lolzold4 no
Dopa doesn't Q the wave he should know this.
yeah ive seen his games, he never Q the wave he just dont
he keeps it for poke?
@@abyst4754 i mean i'm pretty sure he does like 2 x1 farm+poke, you can be right about him not using itfor just the wave tho, that be weird when trying to push tho
He used to red card caster minions I season 10 I haven't seen any updated videos on him tho
@Min-Sung Ko neither the casters? so only poke?
15:00 man just went full Hikaru Nakamura with drawing those lines there
hikaru and ls should collab ffs
Then I take, and he takes, take take take, and Orianna is about 2 minions extra, with a comfortable position for Red.
@@elrumstoke if we imagine the lane as 64 squares I should have clicked on d5 to get control of the center and look to play the tyler1 gambit with d6 d7 d8
bongcloud the wave
hikaru would definitely draw about 20 more lines
Great content, unfortunately chat was very toxic during. Will most likely discourage future coaches from putting themselves out there. Props to Zen for the effort.
There are people who read twitch chat ?
I feel like (or at least I hope so) the attitude in the community is shifting in the sense that it is fine to criticize someone on a contentual level and that it is okay to be wrong on that level as well. Unfortunately so far people are quick to jump on a witch hunt when the person they like criticizes someone, but hopefully the new normal will be that people actually engage in these conversations and debates as this is the only way people actually learn something and coaches / analysts can actually improve.
Glad LS is putting a lot of effort into this topic and glad he isn't abusing his position. It would probably be a super free content and money goldmine to just watch league edu content, shit on it, let the mob do it's thing and farm some primes while at it. Really shows how bs the typical accusations towards him and his co-streams are, that he would just hate on everything to farm content.
Just turn off chat :)
@@MauriceGucci I know LS doesn't like doing it but should probs have sub only chat or smth during these kind of streams. That or emote only so it is equal to everyone
chat is all challenger though
This is the biggest issue I have with some coaches atm, the player ends up bombarded with so much overly specific information rather than good general advice that can applied in multiple games. Was nice to see it being pointed out.
When the coach asks for feedback on the information it's almost always going to be replied with 'I understand' because the player is still trying to process the mountain of information that's been thrown at him.
Respect to zen for facilitating this
Yeah, it really shows how Zen is understanding and really wants to improve.
@@mrnoxusyz5378 stfu
Omg and there are players who pay for this shit ???? dude i need to start couching then.....I will really love to find this Zen or wtf name he have in me games and to play like this agresive vs me :)) is crazy how ppls are paying for stupid information
@@terrificlife1576 I don't care about the aggressive gameplay, will just go to the correct elo but the aggressive and cruel coaching is just demoralizing and not empowering at all.
It gets him publicity as well as he believes he’s correct and wants the validation for credibility
"Have you played against Faker", yeh bro like yesterday i sat on his face in soloq bro.
That frase is too toxic. Is like "You are a bad player, you don´t play vs the best. Shame on you"
@@Brian-wy2od wasnt said with that context tho. He just wanted to use faker/dopa to reinforce his points. "Have u laned against faker? He does this and this and basically you should too." In case the player said yes, he would say "So you have seen first hand what these small things can achieve ."
Finally some coaching from LS
Long overdue...
@@youtubepremiumenjoyer8820 you're smoking crack my dude
I love this. The fact that Zen provided permission is even better. To see my favorite coach review my second favorite coach's coaching was something I have been waiting for for a long time. To be fair, watching Zen and LS's coaching videos have helped me a lot as a player going from Bronze to Diamond in my first season in League playing top lane. The focus on fundamentals for both has allowed me to slow down the game and evaluate each and every decision I make in my ranked games rather than focusing on the actions of my teammates. Thank you for doing this LS and thank you for providing your permission Zen. It takes a lot of effort to produce content like this and I am infinitely grateful. Also, props to Zen for putting yourself out there and showing that you are willing to take criticism on your content and use it as an opportunity for improvement, which takes a lot of guts to do, combined with the fact that doing so shows that you really care about the game, the player base and are willing to make sure that the information you are providing in your content is correct. While I am sad that LS no longer coaches publicly, anyone who would like to improve at the game and get rid of their teammate-blaming mindset should check out the videos from both coaches as they not only show, but also explain why only what you do in game matters and allow you to eliminate any toxic mindset or negative assumptions you have about the game.
Zen is a terrible coach. Not because of his league of legends knowledge; I dont care about that really. Hes a horrendous example of what coaching should be, in ANY field. You already have your mind made up, so Im not even going to try to "convince you", but I more or less just want to say it is all. This video is more or less a bullshit example of his actual usual demeanor and personality.
Also, when you say things like "bronze to diamond in my first season" its realllllllly incredulous and completely discredits literally anything you say without some basis of proof. Post that op.gg, show your progression videos, show your progress, but claiming bronze to diamond your first season playing is generally going to be looked at as completely bullshit lol. The problem fundamentally is that if you really were that prodigious, you wouldnt arbitrarily stop at diamond lol. That or you got carried by your master tier friend who guided and controlled your every action. Theres almost no scenario where a person can start playing league fresh and climb to diamond in one season all by themselves.
that's cool man, zen's a big fan of yours.
Does that matter if hes objectevly wrong though?
@@Kindahl1 I think it is more or less LS publicizing his critisms of someone's coaching for content. All while that someone is a fan. LS isn't wrong to state his opinions unfortunately these criticisms do less to help Zen improve, more than likely effect his credibility.
Edit: After looking around more, it looks like Zen expressed permission. That completely changes this. This means Zen is ready to receive criticism as well as this becomes a video to help other coaches learn on behalf of Zen's mistakes.
@@chrisdarden3871 ‘after looking around more’? Isn’t it expressly stated right at the start with a screenshot of the tweet or?
@@burdenboy247 kekw he's blind
Doesn't seem like he learned a lot from LS
I though this a full 1 hour lvl 1 Laning phase coaching.
Zen is taking a 2 month break to try and learn more about this game, which is kind of nice to hear.
yes at the same time it makes me wonder why he didn't do that before and realised after this coaching commentary
@@poisonvolkswagon9431 He claimed he didn't know the quality of his coaching till the video.
@@PosionNec yeah but isn’t that scary? Like he didn’t know that he was not able to coaching properly since he didn’t understand the game at that high level. Which means he didn’t do proper research
@@poisonvolkswagon9431 Because unknown unknowns is hard to gage. He didn't know his understanding of the game was flawed. It wasn't UNTIL he asked for feedback that he realized he was making mistakes. I applaud him for putting himself out there. I have been grilled in other videos about my game play in league and it's eye opening. My only issue with Zen is his coaching "voice". His word usage and speech patterns sounds so similar to LS that I naturally default to thinking "this guy is a discount LS". Now this maybe just the way he talks, but my gut tells me his is mimicking LS's coaching style. I would encourage him to finding his own "voice" similar to if you watch VeigarV2's coaching or Veteran's coaching they cover the same concepts as LS but in their own words and coaching style.
@@poisonvolkswagon9431 honestly i dont think thats just zen, i think thats the vast majority of coaches
This is meta coaching. I hope there will be a coach's coach who can review this coach coaching in order to have a meta-meta-coaching
I’ve taken a few months off of league but this video is probably gonna get my feed filled with it again
Call to authority should just never be an argument in coaching. Understanding the "why is someone else doing it?" is way more important than "that someone is doing it".
Again, depends on who your coaching, low elo players have no understanding of the games yet and they need small stuff to repeat to themselves, look at neace for exemple
@@samuelallard141 It literally doesn't matter who you are coaching. You never use another player to justify actions. "Dopa doesn't do this so you shouldn't either" -style. Even mentioning Dopa is pointless. You can explain why a move is bad or good without ever mentioning any other players. Mentioning that one good player is just a way to try to create false credibility.
@@beiggo21 I mean, for a low elo players it might be better to just tell them "listen, i can't teach you ins and outs of laning because thats out of your reach now, so you can try an follow what someone else does". If you try to explain to gold/plat players stuff the way LS does their brain is just going to melt. That said, it wasn't good in this case since he is coaching challanger/amateur lvl player.
@@bartoszbartosiewicz1123 No, you didn't understand what we were saying. Telling a player that they should watch another player to improve is completely fine fine, even for challengers. However, it's not ok to say that a play is good because a certain player is doing it or bad because a certain player is not doing it. Those are different things.
@@beiggo21 Yeah, particularly because even the best players in the world have particular aspects of their play-style that are weaker than certain players who have overall less skill.
you shouldv done this with zen that way the discussion wouldv been better overall
@@Weirdbrit true i didnt say its wrong its just a suggestion ^^
@@mr_penguin3725 I don't like this. It would cause a debate to happen if Zen isn't open to listening. I think it's better to just give criticism this way because then there doesn't have to be that dialogue when it can just be a reactionary way of learning rather then a peer to peer discussion which would probably be beneficial but not really optimal.
@mohamed osama no it would help let him talk about why he thinks that way maybe he has a point maybe he doesnt we ll never know , its not controversy its just a normal debate between two povs we ll understand more what they both think and why they think its right instead of just one pov ^^
@@pittaaaabread i mean idk if he's not open to listening i assumed he is cause why would he ask for a review ? obviously he wants to improve so it makes sence for him to listen
@@mr_penguin3725 Yes but being told something to your face vs over a video that you can pause and think over are 2 completely different things. It's much easier this way because zen can pause and actually put the principles that LS and Nemesis are saying into action to see if they're right or not. On top of that he can do it at his own discretion and there will be 0 bias vs if they had an argument which would make a close minded person almost impossible to convince. I think that a discussion is great but clearly flawed and not the best way for what Zen wanted out of LS and Nemesis. Also sorry for my poor grammar in some cases. I'm still learning English but I hope I was able to get my point across.
LS your minset and content helped me a lot ty XD
He talks a little too quickly which can occasionally make what he is saying confusing to follow.
Definitely feel like he needs to slow down to make what he is saying is clearer and easier to follow.
The best of the best always know they have a lot to learn and never stop trying to be better. This was awesome form so many different points of view since it's just people trying to get better at what they are passionate about... be it playing, coaching, creating content etc... it's just nice top see people taking criticism willingly to get better and not taking things as a personal attack but opportunity to improve!
If you think Zen is the "Best of the best", I have bad news for you. I dont even care about his knowledge (or lack thereof) about league of legends. His ability and effectiveness from purely a coaching perspective is one of the poorest displays imaginable. I genuinely dont understand where his relative popularity even comes from.
I think Zen normally does use first person perspective IIRC! Love the constructive feedback though
Oh man.. I want to see Zen react to this now!
11:53 you can feel that LS doesn't want to continue anymore, I wouldn't either after that statement
8:37 Actually yes there is Nemesis, if you auto vel like he's saying they agro you, you then run back (not too fast) and the minions will chase you to the middle of the lane, it's a really hard trick to do but if this is what the coach is discussing I agree with him, and if he had fast killed the first 3 this truck with casters is impossible. But I still don't know if that's a wave state you want with Ori vs Vel, as an Irelia or something with all in threat this is very ideal and I use it myself if I can.
When you say you have to pretend to believe what he’s saying for a moment, it’s called giving someone the benefit of the doubt. I think this is a great idea and wish more people did this
Hey LS, have you ever though of using the chess term zugzwang.
It means "its ur turn to do something, but every choice is losing"
It could be used in league if (for example), you shove into tower and start a fight in jg. If the laner moves they lose cs to tower, and if they stay their jg falls behind. Your actions put them in zugzwang.
think he's used it before
He likes the word a lot and is sad that there is no english alternative. He mentioned it on stream a lot of times.
it's called a no win situation
Your example would be more akin to a fork. Your definition for zugzwang is correct, but League is not turn based you can technically do nothing. Although literally doing nothing is bad, we can instead consider doing nothing as inaction. If we alter the definition of zugzwang for league to "any decision outside of the neutral/current course of action is losing" I think it would make more sense. For example, if 2 junglers are just full clearing and there are no gank opportunities that have a higher payoff than the opportunity cost, any action outside of full clearing is inferior, thus both junglers are in zugzwang.
@@BoyMuggy but league is turn based. In higher levels, certain plays/moves and responses become predictable enough that it becomes like playing a turn based game. It’s just like when ls draws the lines and talks about ori moves up, then velloz moves right and ori retreats
Zen Coaching is a nice guy not only for uploading most of his stuff for free online, but also for letting you evaluate him publicly. Really gotta respect him for that and for wanting to improve.
And I swear to god if any Silver guy here starts flaming Zen, because LS and Nemesis criticized the stuff Zen said in a video, then I'm absolutely losing it. Odds are 99.9% of this comment section knows less about the game and has done less for League edu content than Zen. The guy is doing everything with good intentions, the fact that he asked LS to evaluate him (after the last guy got a shit storm) shows that once again. Nobody is perfect, I mean even LS is wrong 99% of the time.
Long story short: no hate towards Zen pls, shoutout to Zen for doing this and thank you LS for doing content like this, I enjoy it a lot.
Big facts. Its awesome Zen wants to improve at coaching and the best way to do that is to have someone better look over your stuff.
eh, I once paid a bunch of money for his coaching and he did a double coaching with one of his subcoaches without asking me and all they did was joke with each other while barely paying attention to my gameplay. He even told me afterwards that his subcoach was just saying bullshit a few times
Hey who was the last guy?
I am just going to say that if he really wants to be a coach, he needs to learn that the moment a teacher humiliates his student, the lesson stops there and he’s not going to ever learn anything.
@@lobontz12002 that's not entirely true. Even if you disagree with them, you have to understand that coaches are coming from a place of wanting to help you improve. Completely shutting off your brain when someone "humiliates" you (however the fuck you get humiliated by your league gameplay, jfc)
I gotta say I love how lately most ppl LS streams with are sort of in the same footing as him, so to speak. It doesn't feel like he's better than the person he's talking to or worse, and they actually get to discuss shit and point out things the other might've missed
He sounds like he’s doing his best ls impression
Exactly. He's trying to emulate LS and the things he says without the knowledge to back it up. It's really cringe to watch.
it's actually scary how much he speaks like LS. he is the Reverse Flash in the making.
@@Seals619 you can say that, but his videos actually helped a lot. I was g3 and I got to masters.
@@valentinewiggin9705 This is likely you and not Zen's content, you put in the time and effort and his content helped a bit along the way. I don't think it got you to Masters I think it helped you in the middle tiers but kind of stopped helping around D3 which is great but I can agree with Seals619 but would rephrase it to something different. He has the knowledge to coach low-middle tier players but d2+ won't be helped that much (FROM MY FIRST IMPRESSION CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG).
@@Thetoxicpeaceful1 yeah well, ofc I had to put in the time.
I basically learned from him the lane fundamentals, the mouse clicking speed, the camera control, and jg tracking, after that it was just me following his advice of watching vods and just overall limiting my champion pool to 3 max.
Tbh he mostly taught me how to know how to climb if that makes sense.
Watching this video the whole time thinking "He's trying not to ruin this whole mans career."
Nothing wrong with the truth. This will only make him better and other coaches as well. Constructive Criticism is a good thing.
The lesson here is:
Just play like Dopa 4Head
Bro you played against any of the top 5 midlaners? They dont do that. lmao
"You should have AERHGLAIERUGHEA, you should have QWOIUGHCALEGU instead so you AWEUIHADIUGH, do you have any questions?" Pro or not, I think Zen just slowing down is all around a good thing for both parties.
I never got that Vibe from LS nor his previous coaching videos, he's always easy to follow because he articulates well.
40 minutes in and i learned that i should watch dopa, because dopa doesnt q the wave lvl 1
Love 31:20 and the discussion on whether or not Froggen can dodge the q
watching this as an aspiring coach is amazing, would love to see more of this.
52:30 The red bar watching this video lines up with the other red bar in the video. Pure satisfaction.
Well I just started getting back into league after five years out thanks to wild rift . I was always a huge fan of LS , he is however one of the smartest and most intelligent people I have ever known. Glad to know he is still going strong. He is a beautiful human being. Nice videos too
Zen coaching challengers guys
Me in Silver IV: Oh yes, he is right. I was thinking about it as well
Theres a fundamental oversight that people box in players "knowledge" at certain ranks. "Oh hes silver, he cant possibly know blah blah". This is fundamentally incorrect. ESPECIALLY with the amount of available information out on youtube alone, people at any rank can learn "what to do". Its having the ability to parse the information out correctly, apply it at the right time in the right way, and knowing why you are doing is the difference between high elo and low elo. A bronze iv player can know what a freeze is and a basic idea of how to do one. A silver IV player can know you should do a "certain thing" just fine.
The separation becomes "why" are you doing this? Are you able to fundamentally perform this when you are supposed to? Theres also an interesting thing where its REALLY easy to see someone ELSES mistakes, but not your own. This is why reviewing games is so so important. Dont "lose a game" then immediately "review it". Wait a day. You will be biased and tilted (good OR bad) and wont be effective to yourself. Also, this is going to sound retarded, but reviewing WINS is FAR more important than reviewing losses. Why? Because if you over extend level 2 and die, then you go back to lane; cs like shit because youre put behind, then get ganked and die again, then play on the back foot the rest of the time, youre not going to learn too too much by reviewing shit you already know went wrong. When you review losses, you need to pay attention to specific areas you could have taken advantage of, not "what you did wrong". WINS? People almost never review their wins because "I played great and that game went well". No. ESPECIALLY in lower elos this is so so so so wrong. SO many people NEVER realize they didnt win because they "played well", they won because their opponents played like shit... or they didnt get punished in certain scenarios.. or their teamates facilitated them to play well, not because they used their own skill. Also, when you do win, you can affirm things you ARE doing well. Seriously, review your wins.
Silver players can know the "Whats" of league just as well as a diamond player can. Doesnt necessarily mean they "do" (likely not!), but dont be dismissive of what you actually know in comparison to someone else. Learn. Get better. Play better. It doesnt matter or mean anything that someone in challenger is better than you.
(real tip if you want to rank up in solo queue... stop playing "For the team". Never play "for the team". Be selfish. Playing "For the team" means you are coinflipping if your team is actually going to play well or not. Playing for yourself? You can ALWAYS rely on that. This doesnt mean be an asshole mind you... Im happy to explain this further if youd like)
@@JgHaverty Dude it was a joke of a comment. I don't even play lol anymore
@@calzimer "Dude" I was saying that you are entirely capable and have the capacity to know and understand things that your rank doesnt necessarily reflect. Pardon me for assuming you had a brain, my bad.
Although this content might be quite dense, it is super useful for people learning the game as well as learning how to identify useful coaching. I hope you guys do more stuff like this. Great job, keep it up, proud of you.
Now I want to see Zen reacting to LS reacting to Zen coaching.
It should be about more than just guidelines and paths. They also need to documenting their progression. To make sure that they are doing more than just thinking they are applying the guidelines and paths.
I can barely hear the coaching vod and LS yelling blew my ears out
Finally got around to watching this in its entirety. I'd just like to say that I appreciate that the channel will feature some long-form content like this. When the channel swapped over to T1's content, I was afraid of the content trending toward ~10 min. videos to garner clicks instead of the long play stuff. Seeing this type of video will keep my subscription going. Thanks.
Watching this honestly was a joy to see. I learned quite a bit
i enjoyed this a lot when i watched it live gives a lot of insight on edu content in league and where it has to improve, hope you can do more content like this
Ori hit level 2 at 30 minutes into the video I'm having an aneurysm
LS please do a video on wave management, every scenario of wave control when to recall and other stuff.
Matchup dependent, lane dependent, game time dependent...
Watch the videos he has about that(?
Dude, just play the game. You can't possibly be ever ready for EVERY lane scenario. Just try to do things slowly, it'll click with you overtime.
He did videos about it in the past already, stuff like wave control never changes
@@Geheimnis-c2e no there is information thats very useful for wave management and then apply it to your circumstances.
zen coaching is someone i used to advise a lot of players to go to when i did not want to work with them. this was like 2 years ago
And uh... who are you?
@@ylightloa ur sister
Hey LS, not sure if you are gonna end up reading this but I wanted to say this video was a lot better than the one on coach Curtis which I remember you vaguely criticising him personally over his ideas (I might be wrong but I remember feeling uncomfortable when watching that video, I apologise if this is inaccurate). The only other thing I would add is to expand on the ideas you mention like why can't you cheater recall on some champions etc. Thank you for the content as always.
You can't cheater recall if your champ lacks the tools to quickly shove the piled up wave or the enemy has more wave clear.
20:16 "The best player I've played against in lane... Nisqy probably" "Jesus, ok..." ROFL
Thank you for taking the time to do this LS and Nemesis. 👍 😎
I love watching zen rant on his players but I didn’t think I’d love LS ranting on zen more
All video:
I agree -nemesis
Wots new lol
"Amy's Baking Company version of Kitchen Nightmares" OMEGALUL good one Last Shadow
I feel like this is the best coaching ever, like we get to see the game and two/three different opinions and view on the game!
Playing with a Coach is like:
When an anime character is about to punch his opponent then the analysis frame suddenly popped up and that punch actually landed on the next episode
The suspense was unreal, can he dodge the Ori q?
LS is actually wrong in this video because Dopa wouldn't do that
I really like this video since not only does it help out the coach who needed evaluation, it also helps us out.
This is SUPER good video, learned A LOT from it, thanks ls and nemesis
I think he's saying that if you know the matchup properly, you can punish pro players in lane because even they make mistakes. BTW I love your commentary and analysis LS
Despite this being a critique coaching is really difficult people have varied approaches to how they learn and understand concepts, ideas and moments differently. So any toxicity from chat and comments etc is really undeserved
We need more content like this, just in league in general
Really interesting content LS, been wondering what your thoughts were on the things he tell high elo players. Also very pleased that it was uploaded to RUclips since I can't always be there for the stream. Thank you LS.
this is peer-reviewed research article
LS discovering what bias is in this video is very wholesome. IRL character arc.
one hour to vod 3 minutes of gameplay league is something else XD
Can't wait for a coach to analyse this video and post it.
Today I learned that black + white = gray and that gray can spit out black or white if he wants to.
Gray is badass.
I applaud Zen for putting himself out there. It's not easy putting yourself publicly. I have been grilled publicly in other RUclips videos about my own game play in league and it's eye opening experience. It is eye opening due to listening to the coach's feedback and how hard the community likes to "dogpile" on mistakes regardless if they can even understand half the shit the coach is talking about.
My only issue with Zen is his coaching "voice". His word usage and speech patterns sounds so similar to LS that I naturally default to thinking "this guy is a discount LS". Now this maybe just the way he talks, but my gut tells me his is mimicking LS's coaching style. I would encourage him to finding his own "voice" similar to if you watch VeigarV2's coaching or Veteran's coaching they cover the similar concepts as LS but in they use their own words and coaching style.
1) Zen "puts himself out there" daily. 2) this video used is not even close to a real example of Zen's average coaching session 3) Its REAL easy to get free publicity from your friend that has millions of people looking at him and has hundreds of thousands of direct followers.
I DO hope this was to actually be used to learn and grow, but given Zen's nature and demeanor, this absolutely piss poor example of his actual personality and "coaching" sessions; it makes me really wonder if this is purely just for publicity. I really really hope not, but its way too plausible.
@@JgHaverty do you have examples that are counter to the one he provided? Or do you have any experience working with the guy? Maybe I’m miss reading but you don’t seem to view Zen too highly.
@@gologotha7922 "Maybe I’m miss reading but you don’t seem to view Zen too highly." Im fairly confident I made that abundantly clear lol. I absolutely dislike him, I think hes a terrible coach, and hes incredibly disrespectful and demeaning to his students on a shockingly frequent basis.
That said, Im not running hate campaigns, posting on twitter or reddit about it, or going through his videos and trash talking. This particular video that is directly in feedback to his actual coaching is a fair and legitimate place to post these opinions. Yes its an opinion. No its not biased by anyone elses judgements, these are my own thoughts. That said; they arent "made up" or stemmed from nowhere; that seems rather ridiculous to do, no?
But yes, I can provide examples; Im about to take my wife to the doctors office here in a minute, but when I get back; yeah I have no problem showing you what Im talking about. That said; its not super difficult to find either. I actually appreciate your approach; a lot honestly.
Food for thought though -> LS only mentions the "AMOUNT" of coaching Zen has; not one time does mention the "QUALITY" of his coaching, nor speak of his capabilities of such. Does doing something " a lot" make you inherently good at it? Mostly rhetorical here, but youre welcome to answer.
@@gologotha7922 Oh, btw... are you... not aware of why Zen is taking a "2 month break?
If not I can summarize it for you -> He was unable to climb on his main account because he spent too much time selling boosted accounts for money (illegal btw), making content and "personal reasons" (his words). WELL, he was diamond 2 on his main a little while ago, and managed to get his account PERMANENTLY BANNED for toxic behavior. He didn't publicly disclose this until a short while ago. Well, despite his claims of "financial struggles" and "personal setbacks and issues" and "unable to afford rent"... somehow he managed to scrape up enough money to buy a MASTER PLACED ACCOUNT. Now, usually this would be almost 1000$, but Id guess he has connections with other sellers so he probably didnt pay nearly as much.
Just something to think about; him selling boosted accounts like that is not only "morally wrong" (I mean I dont REALLY care honestly... just sucks getting a silver 2 player on a purchased account on your team lol) but its actually straight up illegal in toronto lol.
@@gologotha7922 hollllyyyy shit... Dude he's removed a LOT of his coaching sessions from his youtube channel. Hes also removed ALL of his videos on twitch. Well, obviously you should be able to read between the lines a little bit, but this basically means I have to rely on "trust me"; which I know is honestly crap.
www.twitch.tv/zencoaching/videos
Like ... Im kind of at a loss for words here...
400 likes 3 dislikes and the 1 hr vid has been out for 10, wtf
Might be ppl who just saw it on stream
1:12:37
is important for lots of y’all
One way to vastly improve these videos is let the person completely finish their point of view before commenting even if what's being said is egregious
44:20 I had an ad that started with "because of Jesus Christ..." xD
So, we (e-sports) finally reach the point of professionalism where we suffer from the same problems like traditional industries do. Coaching, generally speaking, has very little empirical evidence of it's efficacy that goes beyond the placebo effect of personalized one on one attention. And I highly suppose that is because it is terribly difficult to achieve a sufficient interrater agreement to actually positively impact the coachees performance. This video is a beautiful example of how different two (decorated) coaches see the game. However, this kind of is the vital spirit of sports: we just love to discuss because everybody knows it better :D Keep the viewers interested.
I totally agree with you, but could you share some links to data if possible?
Do you think these coaches intentionally try to make the player feel like they're constantly making mistakes so they come back for more coaching?
Alot of times its hard to listen when literally every statement is missunderstood lmao
I think what he was saying is: "You can even do these things against a pro player, it's about learning to do them consistently"
Definitely taking notes when LS talks
@39:11 They talk about kha ganking but, before even considering him doing that they already saw that he went for raptors second which means he needs 2 more camps to get level 3 so ganking and invading are out of the question
“Dopa doesn’t do that” this deserves a noble price
"Does that make sense" is the "Would you kindly" of coaching
19 mins into the video and ori is still lv1 .. i just felt like this guy wanna talk about every single detail he possibly can .. good thing he didn't criticize Orianna's skin.
at 5 minutes that "understanding" you are talking about is called "the spirit" in hegelian philosophy
I love how we spent an hour on the first 3 minutes
As a casual player the only things I got out of this 1h+ coaching is that you should prioritize farming and pushing the opponent out of his lane...
This is honestly really scary. As someone who just doesn't recognize the things that LS/Nemesis do, I have no way of checking whether a coach like this is right or wrong. It makes me scared to accept help or advice in a lot of ways...
as a general advice NEVER pay for "coaching" of any sort unless the person who is gonna coach you has some real credentials behind, and even then I for sure would not recommend you to spend any money on a coach for a freaking videogame, reality is there isn't a single pro player that has needed coaching to get where they are, which means that if you are in a position to need it you most definetely are not going to make it.
@@rogersole8458 That's a really fkn dumb take man. You can't improve if you're making the same mistakes over and over while thinking you're doing okay, that's where a coach can be a very valuable resource and anyone can be a pro player if they put enough effort into it.
If you don't recognize the things LS or Nemesis are talking about until after they mention it, then it means even what Zen's saying will help you, because while it may not be the best way to play the lane, it still is probably better than what you're currently doing, and for free coaching that's good enough for me, because after you know these sorts of things exist, you can start telling yourself which action and chain of events is more optimal for you depending on the situation.
@@rogersole8458 forgets to mention that pro players don't stay in the scene without a dedicated coach (or 2) and at least 1 dedicated analyst for the team.
So yes, but also no.
@@primedember5249 how's that a dumb take bro? All I'm saying is it's a waste of money to pay for someone to coach you at a level where you can find tons of free content all over the place, especially considering most of these "coaches" will not teach you shit
I really really like these type of coachception videos, more please daddy LS
Gotta love the Nemesis commentary and input at all times. "I agree" x 30. 10/10 commentary. No clue why LS even shows up, honestly.
I appreciate how honest Ls & Nemesis we’re, strictly speaking on the basis of learning, if they were not to criticize him as hard he would not have anything to learn about his own coaching. But as a silver player the entire first hour of the video kind of fried my league mental. I did learn how to play ori in the first 3-6 levels though. xD
I love the content however I wish more coaches would ask you to review them.
I'm 28 min in this video and I can say that he is right on the agression theme if orianna had corrupting pot
Because she would just perma poke with her ball beging the enemy caster minions and control the wave just with her basic
And each time she wanna take an extended poke she pop corrupting
But in this case ls is right for competitive level especially the early poke that doesn't matter if your goal is to get a cheater with cull (because you have the push on velkoz early)