I'm Scott owner of Van Dorsten Custom Firearms and professional gunsmith. Join me for tips, tricks, And product reviews in the gunsmithing industry. www.facebook.c...
When I went to the factory armorers school in the 1970s they told us to use a small ball peen hammer to gently peen and draw the end of the yoke to address end shake. This is the first I've seen of a "stretching tool". Interesting development.
That's for fixing yoke endshake if the button surface has worn down... it will do nothing to fix cylinder endshake. Even if cylinder endshake is removed from pulling the yoke back, it will come back again after just one box of ammo is put throught the gun when a notch is worn into the yoke by the yoke screw as it presses forward to headspace off the frame.
I liked this. Very informative. I just replaced a hammer nose on a crappy Rossi 462. But it works....end shake very little. Now just acquired a 586 nodash. Modified. Some end shake.
I just recently found your channel on RUclips, and I find your videos about revolvers fascinating. I've always been amazed at the internal workings of S&W revolvers, however a buddy of mine, an amateur gunsmith and friend of Ron Power, convinced me to never remove the sideplate again - He got tired of my taking him my S&W revolvers to get working again. But he also introduced me to Ron, who did an incredible action job on a 625-3 of mine, shortly before he left Independence.
Nicely done! I have observed some sloppy work down by pseudo-gunsmiths on YT. Frankly, it was painful watching. You on the other hand know what you are doing! Thank you! Semper Fi, a Combat Marine
Thanks for the video bud. I picked a 5 screw k38 that needs a little attention, well actually more than a little. I can understand the "feel" learned from doing things several times. It's a machinist thing, moat don't understand. Wish I would have came across this vid years ago. Thans agaib. Appreciate ya
There is a finite amount of space between the forcing cone and breach face. And the cylinder is a finite length. So the total clearance is fixed. You can change the position of the cylinder within the space, and/or reduce the shake (slop). But the total clearance never changes so, it is a ballance between headspace and forcing cone gap. Also cylinder end shake and total end shake are diferent things. Revolvers are quite complicated little machines...
Total end shake as end the rim end also? Does that measurement even dictate much? Sorry for my ingnorance, i haven't found the needed time to dive into S&W revolvers: A workshop manual 5th edition completely yet. Hopefully soon enough tho!
Really enjoy watching you work Sir. New sub......I’ll be back. I watched the “Jammed Revolver” vid today as well. Very glad to see a young man take your level of pride in your work! Thanks!
I am surprised you don't use a wider wheel on the stretching device. It looks like you created one weak spot in the metal cylinder, just my uneducated opinion great video
Surprised you failed to use feeler guage on cyl face and forcing cone before or after your work. I watched Ron Powers always guage the slack to guarentee fit and alignment in K frames with Mod.19 notorious for frame stretching...which is the true cause for end shake usually.
Thank you very much for the video. I'm adding it to my knowledge base however, I do have a few questions: Similar question to @chuck nall, is there a reason why you didn't use the feeler gauges to determine the actual spacing before you start at your work? Second question, is there a reason why you didn't use a gage to measure the overall length of the part before you begin stretching it? Knowing that number and the specification would tell you how much you actually needed to move it just in case that wasn't the problem but instead may have been overall frame stretch. Third question I've never taken a strength of materials class so I don't know what the elastic strength of this quality of steel to know if stretching it beyond the tolerance and then trimming it back would eventually cause it to be weakened as opposed to stretching it to tolerance without the reduction thus keeping the thickness the crane tube within spec as much as possible. Last question , do the questions I've already posed have answers that change depending upon whether or not the metal is cast or forged? I asked two questions based upon your recommendations that the process could be used on firearms that are cast like the Ruger or Taurus. Please accept these question as one from someone who's trying to learn and not as a criticism or critique.
@Tom H. thanks Tom, but if the purpose of the videos is to inform and or educate then sometimes brevity will not fulfil the purpose. I am not watching him to see how smart he is, I'm watching to learn. This is way out of my lane of understanding after having no shop classes in high school nor having attended a technical college. I make the assumption that he is highly competent or I wouldn't bother with follow-up questions. Thank you for your time and response.
Thanks for Sharing. What do you think about another method. your method is bringing the cylinder back and opens the cylinder gap to the cone yes to a constant gap without shaking. what you think on doing shims under the extractor over the rod between the extractor star an the cylinder so that the extractor closes the back gap of the cylinder movement and so pushes the cylinder forward to close the bore gap to a minimum.
If I understand your suggestion, you would add the shim under the extractor star? The shims are not made for that, and would create a problem with the cylinder closing and turning. You need to peen or stretch the yoke barrel to bring the cylinder face slightly closer to the forcing cone. This eliminates the back and forth motion that was created by the force the weapon has been under by firing numerous rounds. You still must check the barrel\cylinder gap to insure you have it to specs, which I believe is .006 in S&W. This is a safe distance that will allow the cylinder to rotate despite accumulation of carbon and lead during firing.
All s & w revolvers will develop endshake at some point if shot enough. The .22/.22 mag will quicker than you think due to the cylinder being heavier than say a .38. I actually prefer a little endshake on my revolvers.
Scott you're an Ace. I just came upon a 1945-46 commercial hand ejector "S" prefix. .38 special. Which has got movement when locked in single action. It's seen some sort of service . A sloppy number engraving on the sides. But overall serviceable imo. BTW it's parkerized which idk if its a factory job. How do i get it to lock up tight.
I bought a model 586 no-dash a couple of weeks ago that in my opinion has a little too much end shake. It's a beautiful revolver and it shoots great though. I always pride myself in being able to fix things on my own. After watching this video I have to be honest with myself and admit this repair is way out of my league. Darn it!
Buy some shims from Power Custom and do it yourself. They are effective and they’re not permanent. I did it with my competition revolver and it’s been working for years. And I was trained at the S$W factory. Just didn’t want to make permanent changes to a perfect gun.
Question: Stretching the yoke, will move the cylinder rearward, increasing the cylinder to forcing cone gap. Is there any way to move the cylinder forward? And at what point will the gap affect internal pressure to the point of velocity loss?
You do not want to move the cylinder forward, this will cause a head space issue. To reduces the gap between cylinder and barrel you have to set the barrel back or install a new barrel and fit it. You will not see a significant velocity loss with the barrel gap on most guns. By the time the gap gets large enough to cause a power drop the frame will be stretched to the point of failure.
It actually just increases the pressure on the cylinder, which s already as far back as it can get due to the recoil plate at the back of the revolver. The problem was caused by the weapon being fired to the point that the crane barrel has been peened by recoil, and is slightly shorter. Stretching the yoke or adding a shim just restores it to spec.
It does not increase it. the gap is already there the cylinder is just moving back and forth with in that gap. You want to fix the end shake because if you let it go it will eventually let the cylinder impact the barrel and case damage.
It actually decreases the gap between the forcing cone and cylinder face. Stretching/peening is permanent, while the shims can be changed any time. Notice the first try he stretched the crane too much, and had to trim it back again. Can’t do that too often.
We were taught at S&W armorer school to use a ball peen hammer to peen the yoke to length. I have also used the shims to get my gun back to specs. End shake can cause misfires.
I think s&w spec is somewhete between .008 and .012. So 2 sheets of notebook paper should slide thru easily without binding and the 3rd sheet shouldn't get near entry. I just use paper bc most people now that. The average human hair is roughly .004 also.
What about when the cylinder is open? There's a little shake when you move the cylinder back and forth on my 629. Is that something I should look into?
He has a good video on tuning S&W revolvers which includes straightening the ejector rod, which is commonly bent. Other than that there isn’t much need to replace them.
When I went to the factory armorers school in the 1970s they told us to use a small ball peen hammer to gently peen and draw the end of the yoke to address end shake. This is the first I've seen of a "stretching tool". Interesting development.
That's for fixing yoke endshake if the button surface has worn down... it will do nothing to fix cylinder endshake. Even if cylinder endshake is removed from pulling the yoke back, it will come back again after just one box of ammo is put throught the gun when a notch is worn into the yoke by the yoke screw as it presses forward to headspace off the frame.
Great video Scott, you are a great teacher, thank you
I liked this. Very informative. I just replaced a hammer nose on a crappy Rossi 462. But it works....end shake very little. Now just acquired a 586 nodash. Modified. Some end shake.
Your videos are amazing and educational.
really enjoyed your video.
i have a model 60 that i think i want to give this a try.
God bless
Nicely done.
Perfect video , we just made a washer our self and it also works fine , keep up the good videos
I'd put a washer in the top of the cylinder long before I'd remove metal that you can't get back.
Thanks! I learned something new.
I never would have guessed there was actually a stretcher tool,I would have thought you'd have to replace it.
Thanks Scott
Well done, solid explanton. If either of my Smiths #10 or #629 get any play I'll be able to address the problem. Thanks
I just recently found your channel on RUclips, and I find your videos about revolvers fascinating. I've always been amazed at the internal workings of S&W revolvers, however a buddy of mine, an amateur gunsmith and friend of Ron Power, convinced me to never remove the sideplate again - He got tired of my taking him my S&W revolvers to get working again. But he also introduced me to Ron, who did an incredible action job on a 625-3 of mine, shortly before he left Independence.
Thanks a lot! From your videos, I didn't realize there's so much to know about gunsmithing. That's why you hear people say, let a gun smith fix it!
Well done, enjoyable and informative
I learn alot from your videos
thank you very educational.
Great video Scott, thanks!
Nicely done! I have observed some sloppy work down by pseudo-gunsmiths on YT. Frankly, it was painful watching. You on the other hand know what you are doing! Thank you! Semper Fi, a Combat Marine
Thank you
Thanks for the video bud. I picked a 5 screw k38 that needs a little attention, well actually more than a little. I can understand the "feel" learned from doing things several times. It's a machinist thing, moat don't understand. Wish I would have came across this vid years ago. Thans agaib. Appreciate ya
Nice video
There is a finite amount of space between the forcing cone and breach face. And the cylinder is a finite length. So the total clearance is fixed.
You can change the position of the cylinder within the space, and/or reduce the shake (slop). But the total clearance never changes so, it is a ballance between headspace and forcing cone gap. Also cylinder end shake and total end shake are diferent things. Revolvers are quite complicated little machines...
Total end shake as end the rim end also? Does that measurement even dictate much? Sorry for my ingnorance, i haven't found the needed time to dive into S&W revolvers: A workshop manual 5th edition completely yet. Hopefully soon enough tho!
Really enjoy watching you work Sir. New sub......I’ll be back. I watched the “Jammed Revolver” vid today as well. Very glad to see a young man take your level of pride in your work! Thanks!
Thank you! Love your videos. Awesome!
EXCELLENT thanks for sharing!
I am surprised you don't use a wider wheel on the stretching device. It looks like you created one weak spot in the metal cylinder, just my uneducated opinion great video
🌴Bubba Shade Tree 🥃😎👌🌴
Surprised you failed to use
feeler guage on cyl face and
forcing cone before or after
your work. I watched Ron Powers always guage the slack to guarentee fit and
alignment in K frames with
Mod.19 notorious for frame
stretching...which is the true
cause for end shake usually.
Thanks for sharing!
Nice work!. How We fix wiggle cylinder up Down have you video about?
Thank you for this video.
Thank you very much for the video. I'm adding it to my knowledge base however, I do have a few questions: Similar question to @chuck nall, is there a reason why you didn't use the feeler gauges to determine the actual spacing before you start at your work? Second question, is there a reason why you didn't use a gage to measure the overall length of the part before you begin stretching it? Knowing that number and the specification would tell you how much you actually needed to move it just in case that wasn't the problem but instead may have been overall frame stretch. Third question I've never taken a strength of materials class so I don't know what the elastic strength of this quality of steel to know if stretching it beyond the tolerance and then trimming it back would eventually cause it to be weakened as opposed to stretching it to tolerance without the reduction thus keeping the thickness the crane tube within spec as much as possible. Last question , do the questions I've already posed have answers that change depending upon whether or not the metal is cast or forged? I asked two questions based upon your recommendations that the process could be used on firearms that are cast like the Ruger or Taurus.
Please accept these question as one from someone who's trying to learn and not as a criticism or critique.
@Tom H. thanks Tom, but if the purpose of the videos is to inform and or educate then sometimes brevity will not fulfil the purpose. I am not watching him to see how smart he is, I'm watching to learn. This is way out of my lane of understanding after having no shop classes in high school nor having attended a technical college. I make the assumption that he is highly competent or I wouldn't bother with follow-up questions. Thank you for your time and response.
Thanks for Sharing. What do you think about another method. your method is bringing the cylinder back and opens the cylinder gap to the cone yes to a constant gap without shaking. what you think on doing shims under the extractor over the rod between the extractor star an the cylinder so that the extractor closes the back gap of the cylinder movement and so pushes the cylinder forward to close the bore gap to a minimum.
If I understand your suggestion, you would add the shim under the extractor star? The shims are not made for that, and would create a problem with the cylinder closing and turning. You need to peen or stretch the yoke barrel to bring the cylinder face slightly closer to the forcing cone. This eliminates the back and forth motion that was created by the force the weapon has been under by firing numerous rounds. You still must check the barrel\cylinder gap to insure you have it to specs, which I believe is .006 in S&W. This is a safe distance that will allow the cylinder to rotate despite accumulation of carbon and lead during firing.
OK, but doesn't stretching weaken the metal, requiring shake repair more often?
All s & w revolvers will develop endshake at some point if shot enough. The .22/.22 mag will quicker than you think due to the cylinder being heavier than say a .38. I actually prefer a little endshake on my revolvers.
Thanks for the informative video. Do you have a video on doing this fix for an old colt?
What was the diameter on that reamer
Brownells facing tool discontinued, no one has one. Company making it went out of business
Scott you're an Ace.
I just came upon a 1945-46 commercial hand ejector "S" prefix. .38 special. Which has got movement when locked in single action.
It's seen some sort of service .
A sloppy number engraving on the sides.
But overall serviceable imo. BTW it's parkerized which idk if its a factory job.
How do i get it to lock up tight.
Also. Is fmj 158grn. standard velocity ammo ok in this model?
Very interesting, nice work. How do you know that the Forcing Cone and the Cylinder gap are in spec?
is it normal for the cylinder to rub on the cylinder stop,right above the trigger?
I bought a model 586 no-dash a couple of weeks ago that in my opinion has a little too much end shake. It's a beautiful revolver and it shoots great though. I always pride myself in being able to fix things on my own. After watching this video I have to be honest with myself and admit this repair is way out of my league. Darn it!
Buy some shims from Power Custom and do it yourself. They are effective and they’re not permanent. I did it with my competition revolver and it’s been working for years. And I was trained at the S$W factory. Just didn’t want to make permanent changes to a perfect gun.
Hey Scott can you tell me the brownells part number for the tool your using to trim the end of yoke
713-030-000. They don't list it in their catalogue anymore...
@@aakoksal thanks for the info.
Question: Stretching the yoke, will move the cylinder rearward, increasing the cylinder to forcing cone gap. Is there any way to move the cylinder forward? And at what point will the gap affect internal pressure to the point of velocity loss?
You do not want to move the cylinder forward, this will cause a head space issue. To reduces the gap between cylinder and barrel you have to set the barrel back or install a new barrel and fit it. You will not see a significant velocity loss with the barrel gap on most guns. By the time the gap gets large enough to cause a power drop the frame will be stretched to the point of failure.
@@scottv.d.4906 great point. Thank you!
It actually just increases the pressure on the cylinder, which s already as far back as it can get due to the recoil plate at the back of the revolver. The problem was caused by the weapon being fired to the point that the crane barrel has been peened by recoil, and is slightly shorter. Stretching the yoke or adding a shim just restores it to spec.
Should I loosen or tighten the ejector rod?
Great Vid & informative. A question: Doesn't ANY approach (shim or stretch) ultimately increase the chamber(s) mouth and barrel/cone gap?
It does not increase it. the gap is already there the cylinder is just moving back and forth with in that gap. You want to fix the end shake because if you let it go it will eventually let the cylinder impact the barrel and case damage.
It actually decreases the gap between the forcing cone and cylinder face. Stretching/peening is permanent, while the shims can be changed any time. Notice the first try he stretched the crane too much, and had to trim it back again. Can’t do that too often.
Sounds like using a “board stretcher”.
Is that even possible? Stretching Steel?
We were taught at S&W armorer school to use a ball peen hammer to peen the yoke to length. I have also used the shims to get my gun back to specs. End shake can cause misfires.
Have you ever worked on a vintage Python?
Great video, I did not know how that was done. I do have one question, did you check the gap to see if it was within S&W specs?
I think s&w spec is somewhete between .008 and .012. So 2 sheets of notebook paper should slide thru easily without binding and the 3rd sheet shouldn't get near entry. I just use paper bc most people now that. The average human hair is roughly
.004 also.
Could have been a great video
where's the best place to purchase these tools from ?
will end shake cause light primer strike
It certainly can.
Oh shit, that isn't that bad! That's about like replacing tires when only half worn.
What about when the cylinder is open? There's a little shake when you move the cylinder back and forth on my 629. Is that something I should look into?
No, end shake is not an issue when the cylinder is open. only when closed.
@@vdcfirearms3609 Got it. Thanks a lot, brotha!
do you have anything on replace the ejector on the smith revolvers what needs or should be done
A padded vise and some empty cases to support the ejector star. Also invest in good flat ground screwdrivers
He has a good video on tuning S&W revolvers which includes straightening the ejector rod, which is commonly bent. Other than that there isn’t much need to replace them.
American guns
....I’ve seen this guy on a show called American guns lol.
Unfortunately the yoke facing reamer is no longer available, so the "Bubba" shims are the only way to fix this yourself.
Sad.....
Check Power customs.