I have 4. Two Klipsch R100sw in front behind my 126 In projector screen, and Two Cambridge Soundworks PSW1 Master & Slave subwoofers behind the seating area, and it sounds INCREDIBLE to me, and I've never had anyone listening express anything other than amazement. I've used pretty much every hack on this channel on them, even though I'm violating your "don't mix" rule, it works just great for me.
You know I was pretty much was going to say the same thing because I have two different subwoofers, I just even the gain out and it sounds amazing. I just raised the weaker one level higher to match the stronger one.👌🏽 So I really think he's wrong about that one.👍🏽✌🏽
Seriously, not trying to be a jerk here, but there's a saying, "we don't know what we don't know", and I've had all kinds of preconceived notions that have been obliterated after trying things out. Are mixed subs better than a single? All day long. Are matching subwoofers better? Absolutely, and how much better depends on how big the difference is between the mixed subs. I was genuinely underwhelmed by the PB-16 Ultra, because they just didn't sound as good mixed as dual matching PB-2000 originals did. Getting the matching PB-16 Ultra took it from underwhelming to being the best bass I've heard so far.
Krommer, you are the perfect candidate to audition ANY ported dual, *matching* SVS subwoofers, and remove every other subwoofer you have (just turn them off until you're sure) , run room correction again with only the matching subs, apply my hacks, and come back and tell me if your bass hasn't vastly improved. I'll be shocked if you aren't impressed. If it doesn't work, you have 45 days to send them back, no harm, no foul, no shipping charges. If I had no channel and no connection to SVS, and no incentive at all, this would still be my advice. My advice is aimed at you getting the best possible bass within the confines of the laws of physics.
@@Subwoofer101I really appreciate your enthusiasm towards my post, and am kind of happy I struck a note with ya, but I don't know that I'm going to have the time, or currently resources to devote to such a project, especially since I'm already very happy with my current set up, but I'll check back if I do.
I've listened to your reviews on going dual and I've gone dual svs sb3000s. The difference is absolutely fantastic which I didn't know while using a single sb3000. I'm only an amateur bass lover. My system is 99.9% of the time used for music. I barely complete a film when watching the odd times and even with that, the sb3000s rumble my small flat. I'm in UK and I'm sure the neighbours know what's going on. I'm keeping volume reasonably low though. For you, I see you as an audiophile because I'm billion of miles below your expertise in this passion. Thank you for your advice 🙏
My sub evolution has been a cheap Onkyo Sub, to a PSW505, to a single SVS PC-4000, to dual PC-4000s Let me tell you, each upgrade has been significant. For ME, going to duals was great because I have a very open area that needs to be filled with bass. That being said, when the bass kicks in, its A LOT. Love it, 10/10 would recommend. Also - Glad to see youre still making videos. Your channel has been a great help and very informative.
I turn the AVR sub trim as low as I can (on D&M thats -12, so I go to -11.5) Then I raise the gain on each individual sub to hit 70db-75db each individually. Their combined SPL should be around 85 to 90db. Run Room EQ and let that flatten out the bass hump. Then I use a house curve to put some of that bass back. I usually do a +6db Harman curve. So while the other channels are calibrated to 75db, the subs are calibrated to 81db/91db LFE. After I'm done. The impact is usually there.
The only gentleman I go to for my subwoofer information. I have 2 svs sb-2000's in my bedroom old version and 2 pb-1000 pro's in my living room. No joke, I've used almost all of your hacks with my denon dra-800h and my Marantz stereo 70s, and I got to say you have real knowledge on this subject. I do have a question: How would you feel about stereo receiver, amplifier, av receiver, reviews? Great video. I appreciate your content.
Well thank you! Which do you prefer, ported or sealed? I want to do more reviews on AVRs, just need to get my hands on them. I've always preferred XT32, but recently picked up a $400 Denon AVR with the basic room correction. Honestly, it's missing a few features I like, but overall, it's definitely a lot better than I thought it would be.
@Subwoofer101 Honestly, I like them. Both the sealed subs are great in my bedroom, fill the whole room, and go way lower than most I've heard. And the ported in my living room just work better for filling the space, especially because I only really have 3 walls because it's an open concept. However, overall, the pb-1000 pro's are probably my favorite because you want sealed sounds. Just plug them up they are definitely responsive enough to keep up with any music I've listened to anyway. Also, to actually feel your movies is just something else, man.
Yeah, sealed and ported just have a slightly different flavor to them. Sealed subs are what led to the gain hack. Sealed subs just need more power to overcome not having a pressure release (port). I really had to crank the exact same amp (PB-2000 and SB-2000 are the same power) to get close to the same balance. I appreciate your feedback!
I completely agree on output. I recently contemplated and did a change from 4 ported 18s to a different configuration of all sealed subs. Someone was trying to convince me on what a bad idea it was bc I’d be losing output. I was like who cares about output at this point. Either way there’s already way more output than I could possibly need or use. I think people tend to get way too caught up in those numbers as opposed to other factors like quality of the bass, build, or other general perceived sound qualities.
@Subwoofer101 --- I was wondering if a 9.3.6 or 10.6.8 channel configuration makes sense, how large a room would it require? Would any movies/games even have audio tracks that would take advantage of it? I currently own a huge VHS/DVD collection and watch movies for free on RUclips and downloaded from free sites, I haven't bought any Nuon DVD/HD VMD/HD DVD/BD/UHD yet or used any streaming services. I don't own any consoles/gaming omputers/arcades but am interested in modern and retro gaming.
Thanks for the video - great to get your thoughts on that! With matching dual subs - would combing a pro and non-pro of the same series (2000) be close enough to count as matching? The drivers are the same size just more power on the pro.
I'm going with 4 Starke Sound SW15. I want 4 subs. And I want to spend $2000 max. Having looked at all my options, that seems to be the best route to take.
What about a 3 sub setup? My room can't accommodate 4 subs coz 1 corner has the AV rack in it. So my 3 SVS PB1000 pro is placed at the 2 front corners and 1 at the rear middle. I use a miniDsp 2X4HD to integrate them.
Very concise information / my personal listening opinion is sealed subs offer tighter transients and no where near as sloppy a response as any ported sub I've owned. I'm running two JBL Sub550P / 50 lb sealed 10" subs with 300 watt RMS / 500 watts peak. Easily gets to 27 hz and rumbles the entire house.
There are 2 main reasons ported subs are perceived as sloppy, from what I can tell. First, the vast majority of ported subwoofers just aren't refined enough, and they tend to fall apart at certain frequencies, usually the lower end, where a sealed sub won't chuff because there's no port. Any ported subwoofer I recommend is going to be HIGHLY refined. Secondly, for whatever reason, ported subwoofers are night and day when it comes to dual vs single. Ported subwoofers, even the very best, sound *substantially* tighter in a dual configuration, compared to the same single subwoofer. It's not the subwoofer itself, it's the room. Ported subwoofers I recommend couldn't be honestly described as "sloppy" in any way in a matched dual configuration. Subs that are truly bottomless will make a big difference, it's worth auditioning a pair when you get the chance. I appreciate the feedback!
I have a lot of respect for you but I believe you are incorrect to understate the value of 4 subs. I could NEVER get smooth bass response in my room with 2, or even 3 subs. You need smooth bass response before you can start worrying about impact and tactile explosiveness. It doesn't matter how explosive your sub is if you have a 20db dip at 50hz. Also, room treatments can have a lot to do with explosiveness. Room treatment paired with algorithms like MSO or DLBC have done more for my subs than any upgrade ever did. (Aside from the initial upgrade from a single klipsch whatevertheheck to 2 deep bass subs) Another benefit to having 4 subs is that it's not simply more spl...the subs will comfortably play lower due to having more available output, hence more explosiveness. Pb 2000 originals are suppose to cut off at 17hz. When you get 4 of them and use the right tools, you can get them to go down to 14-15hz, which is a big difference
Dual subs are necessary for smooth even bass, 4 subs are mind blowing for movie realism and live performance visceral impact. I use dual SVS SB-16 Ultra.
Oh you definitely need 2 sub-woofers to even the bass out. And you also need "Back surround" speakers to have the full surround sound effect. A lot of people don't really speak about those 2 speakers? Most people just settle for the two sides surround speakers.
I'm under the impression that the gain control is just to match voltage matching voltage is what's going to give you the lowest distortion rate at the highest volume level and if you wanted something that hit harder then you buy something that hits harder.
Well, the thing is, there are ways to get more out of what you have. My gain hack is good, not because of voltage necessarily, but the balance and relative volume of the other channels. By keeping the main speaker levels around 0.0 dB, and dropping the AVR subwoofer level down to -11.5 or whatever is just a touch from the bottom, and turning up the subwoofer gain to compensate, the effect is typically a stronger degree of bass. On the analog subs, this could mean going from 35% gain on the sub Dial to 75%, and it's noticeable. I do it by default with any sub now, just to ensure I get the best performance possible. And to your point, you can spend the money to get dual PB-16 Ultras, and without optimizing, dual PB-1000 Pro's will sound better. Definitely not the PB 16 Ultras fault, it's just that optimizing can make THAT big of a difference. PB-16 Ultras optimized? Unlike anything I've ever heard. Soooo much power, yet not painful or overpowering. Gain Hack, crossover hack, distance hack, and adjusting subs by ear all make quite a difference combined. More wattage is a wonderful thing, but not maximizing seems unfortunate to me. Unrealized potential. To your point of distortion, the opposite of my Gain Hack causes clipping. High AVR Subwoofer level +11.5 instead of -11.5 and low subwoofer gain is the opposite, and it sounds pretty bad. Softer bass and clips easily. My channel exists by breaking certain rules, when it makes sense to do so. I appreciate your feedback, it gives me some ideas for content!
I know I'd prefer ported, but I have a good way for you to figure out what you prefer. Set up your dual PB4K's as sealed, plug the ports, set the port configuration in the App as sealed, and disable all App PEQ's. Redo room correction, set up as you normally would. Live with it for at least a month, or less if you don't like it. If you love sealed, it's a good idea. If you prefer ported, PB-16 over SB-16.
#1 was implementing Time Alignment of Mains & Subwoofer - BEFORE this parameter was even available in AVRs or Preamp Processors. #2 was moving to Dual subwoofers. #3 implementing PEQ. #4 was moving to 4 Subwoofers WITH discreet control over each (Volume, Delay, and Phase). So it appears we are very much on the same page 😊
My question regarding multiple smaller subs is this: Short version: does using more than one sub effectively improve bass extension at the same volume level compared to the specified roll-off? Longer version: If bass roll-off is specified as -6dB at 30Hz that is determined against a reference 0dB (at max. output? Not sure) and it's a physical limitation of the sub. My assumption is if I use 2 subs for the same output level I can drop the volume of each sub, reducing the reference level and thereby there should be less roll-off at 30Hz. Is that correct? Thanks.
Well, the best way for me to sum up what you're asking is that the difference in extension will not be dramatic, although sealed might react a little differently than ported. Enough to write home about? Unfortunately, no. A sub that has 6dB roll off at 30 hertz is shallow, no 2 ways about it. Your overall bass response is going to be close to the in-room extension of a single, just more powerful than a single, and better in every way, aside from expense and floor space. There are some cases where you can get slightly deeper because you aren't running into as much compression (where the sub hits the limits of low end output) because you have more headroom with duals, but if that's happening, it's probably underpowered already. I see some viewers breaking their brains and bank accounts trying to prop up weak, shallow subs that just aren't up to snuff, and to me it seems a LOT easier and cheaper in the long run to get dual deep bass subwoofers from the beginning. Some say "rip off the bandaid", others say "buy once, cry once", but the idea is the same. You can make a semi truck into a sports car, and it will eventually no longer resemble the semi truck it once was, and at great expense, but it's a LOT less trouble to just get a sports car to begin with. Without question, a second matching subwoofer will improve the performance, but I couldn't put the money into shallow subs and feel good about it. Legitimately, this channel and "The List" are designed to save you years and years of frustration, and in some cases, tens of thousands of dollars. Long answer, but it honestly isn't a simple answer, and probably not the answer you were hoping for. Hopefully it helps in the long run.
@@Subwoofer101 Thanks for your response. The -6dB/30Hz was just a general example, no specific sub in mind. Just wanted to know, if I'm looking to buy dual subs are the bass extension specs still 100% valid. So you're saying if there's an improvement it will not be huge.
@gaborozorai3714 Correct, I wouldn't consider any potential additional extension over a single sub's in-room response in my decision making. It's not just whether a sub can *go deep* (factory rated response) but whether it truly **SOUNDS deep**, and it's a massive, often overlooked distinction that is genuinely night and day. I can't tell you how many times I've been disappointed in a subwoofer that I expected great things from, even knowing exactly what I'm looking for. The THX rating has always left me disappointed, so far. Fortunately, the Monolith 15 could be altered to run without THX mode, and it was a lot more satisfying that way.
@@Subwoofer101 Thanks for your detailed answers! Maybe you can help me with one more thing. I listen to music only and have Klipsch Cornwalls which are of course very high efficiency. Bass slam is great but - as a trade-off with high efficiency - they don't go very low. So additional sub-bass power with control is what I want. Never had a sub before. What features and specs would you look for in such a scenario? Thanks
I have only got one subwoofer and it's a small one. In a small room I have to turn the gain almost all the way down. the subwoofer it's too loud in my room and it sounds terrible. So I can't see how another subwoofer would help
You have one small subwoofer. It is good at making one frequency that is way louder than anything else so it sounds bad. A more capable sub will have a smoother frequency response and sound better. Also, try moving the sub in your room. It makes a massive difference.
You need to start a bass drivers❤ anonymous ! Hi my name is Mike and I've been 6 months clean not tweaking my bass! I was arrested for TWD, tweaking while driving, thankfully no one was injured!
Ha! I could probably lead a meeting or 2. I've been tempted to adjust the PEQ's on the road, but I realized I'd just make more of a mess because I couldn't concentrate. Thankfully, no arrests! I definitely have an obsession!
I also have two different subs, I have the Klipsch SPL 150 that got in March of 2022 that I with a Klipsch surround system. After having the Klipsch Sub about eight months the amp went out so I sent it in for repairs and while there, I decided to try out the svs PB 3000. After trying it out of course it was a noticable upgrade. The Klipsch Sub was in the shop for about nine months but before getting it back I'd been thinking about getting another PB 3000 but figured I'd try the two together before spending the money for a new sub. To be honest, I think the mix subs sounds pretty good together but still thinking about getting the svs sub for Christmas and I had a choice, get the svs and have the Klipsch just take up space somewhere in the house or upgrade my living room surround system with the Sony HT A9,so I the Sony. The Klipsch is a 15" 500 watt and the svs is 13" 800 watt, I figured that was close enough to play nice together for a while. I probably will get another PB 3000 this Christmas.
I have no room for additional subs in my bedroom/single-seat HT and I have 2 different brand/size/power subs stacked on top of each other (Polk 60W, 10" from my original 5.1 setup on top of my Klipsch SPL-120). Personally I think it sounds good. I occasionally play around with sub volume in my AVR, but I'll try adding distance and see what happens. I just don't want music to be too boomy but it's OK with Tomcat afterburners, T-rexes and things of that nature :). If I move a bunch of furniture and I wait until Black Friday I MIGHT be able to replace the 2 smaller subs for a larger one that has more oomph at the low end, i.e. below 20Hz.
I had the same subs and thought 💭 I had great sounding subs… I was soo wrong till my Polk went out and wanted that 5 year warranty SVS subwoofer 🔊 are a world of difference. They’ll make you smile from ear to ear even when they are off. Just looking at my dual PB-1000 Pro and my 3 rd Sb-2000 pro behind my couch make my smile.
You can only mix subs if you have a MiniDSP and a mic and are willing to take the time to make them work together. They all need to be about as capable as eachother as well. I would urge people to get the best sub you can afford now and buy another one later. The issue with buying a higher number of cheaper subs is that you will lose output on the low end. You can buy a bunch of $150 subs but you will never get under 20Hz.
I agree don't mix and match your subwoofers I think it's the worst thing you can possibly do. I tried to pair my 10 inch subwoofer with my 12 inch subwoofer and it sounded terrible. When I took the ten inch subwoofer out everything sounded by far better and the 12 out performs the 10 inch subwoofer. I appreciate this video because it taught me something about mix matching different subwoofers
Myself I'm running dual SVS PB-3000's which I upgranned from the dual OG PB-2000's. They are nice and all but now I have bass fever and someday in my life I want to upgrade again but only once more so I want to upgrade to endgame subs. Really I wanna upgrade my whole system to a end game JTR setup. I'd kill to get dual JTR Captivator 4000ulf sub's and for the front end go with 3 Noesis 212HTR, for the surrounds go with 4 Noesis 110HT and for atmos go witheither 4 or 6 (depending if I go with 4 or 6 speaker atmos) Noesis 110HT-SL. Almost forgot, I currently have SVS Ultra bookselves for my front L & R, same for the surrounds, SVS Ultra Center for well my center lol, and 4 SVS Prime Elevation's for the atmos.
There is so much information in this short video. From my experience - everything being said here is TRUE. I currently run 6 identical subs each being 12". The difference from 2 subs to 6 subs is not huge but noticeable, it's the law of diminishing returns. I could buy 2 more identical subs and the difference will be minimal at best and not worth the money. My idea for anymore reading this ----- use 2 identical subs and then use bass shakers on your chairs.
I can't do the distance hack. I use Dirac and that locks distance adjustment from the user. EDIT: But I have used it in the past and it was pretty damn noticeable.
The problem with these tests is you know what the test is. I bet if someone set up the test and asked you to give your answer, you'd get a non biased result.
I know you are incorrect to understate the value of 4 subs or more. Sub is all about placement. Even response throughout a room and several seats are all about placement of Tower-subs. Tower of subs is the ultimate when it comes to music and movies.......
Wow, this was frustrating and disappointing to listen through. So much incorrect information here. I really hope no one with 2-3 rows of seating in a dedicated home theater setup follows these recommendations. Gain or volume setting on the subwoofer has almost no impact on the output capability other than needing to send more signal from the surround processor. Many enthusiasts have dramatically higher expectations than you are used to and advising. It's time to go invest in a UMIK-1 and a MIniDSP and go beyond the tune by ear only efforts. There's a whole 'nother world out there.
![SID Factory 2 - Tutorial [C64][SF2][Tutorial]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/nXNtLetxFUg/mqdefault.jpg)
I’d like to see you review the two RSL Speedwoofers- especially the 12S
I have 4. Two Klipsch R100sw in front behind my 126 In projector screen, and Two Cambridge Soundworks PSW1 Master & Slave subwoofers behind the seating area, and it sounds INCREDIBLE to me, and I've never had anyone listening express anything other than amazement. I've used pretty much every hack on this channel on them, even though I'm violating your "don't mix" rule, it works just great for me.
You know I was pretty much was going to say the same thing because I have two different subwoofers, I just even the gain out and it sounds amazing. I just raised the weaker one level higher to match the stronger one.👌🏽 So I really think he's wrong about that one.👍🏽✌🏽
Seriously, not trying to be a jerk here, but there's a saying, "we don't know what we don't know", and I've had all kinds of preconceived notions that have been obliterated after trying things out. Are mixed subs better than a single? All day long.
Are matching subwoofers better? Absolutely, and how much better depends on how big the difference is between the mixed subs.
I was genuinely underwhelmed by the PB-16 Ultra, because they just didn't sound as good mixed as dual matching PB-2000 originals did.
Getting the matching PB-16 Ultra took it from underwhelming to being the best bass I've heard so far.
Krommer, you are the perfect candidate to audition ANY ported dual, *matching* SVS subwoofers, and remove every other subwoofer you have (just turn them off until you're sure) , run room correction again with only the matching subs, apply my hacks, and come back and tell me if your bass hasn't vastly improved. I'll be shocked if you aren't impressed.
If it doesn't work, you have 45 days to send them back, no harm, no foul, no shipping charges.
If I had no channel and no connection to SVS, and no incentive at all, this would still be my advice.
My advice is aimed at you getting the best possible bass within the confines of the laws of physics.
@@Subwoofer101I really appreciate your enthusiasm towards my post, and am kind of happy I struck a note with ya, but I don't know that I'm going to have the time, or currently resources to devote to such a project, especially since I'm already very happy with my current set up, but I'll check back if I do.
I've listened to your reviews on going dual and I've gone dual svs sb3000s. The difference is absolutely fantastic which I didn't know while using a single sb3000. I'm only an amateur bass lover. My system is 99.9% of the time used for music. I barely complete a film when watching the odd times and even with that, the sb3000s rumble my small flat. I'm in UK and I'm sure the neighbours know what's going on. I'm keeping volume reasonably low though.
For you, I see you as an audiophile because I'm billion of miles below your expertise in this passion. Thank you for your advice 🙏
Welcome Back….
Happy to hear from You after a long time.
Your views on Subwoofer subject much appreciated. Thanks a lot for your efforts 😊
Good to be back! Thanks for watching, and your kind support!
My sub evolution has been a cheap Onkyo Sub, to a PSW505, to a single SVS PC-4000, to dual PC-4000s
Let me tell you, each upgrade has been significant. For ME, going to duals was great because I have a very open area that needs to be filled with bass. That being said, when the bass kicks in, its A LOT.
Love it, 10/10 would recommend.
Also - Glad to see youre still making videos. Your channel has been a great help and very informative.
Glad to be back! Yeah, the PC-4000's definitely have the ability to fill up a really big room and kick like a mule!
@Subwoofer101 ---- What if one subwoofer was placed directly in front or behind the spot I'm sitting?
I turn the AVR sub trim as low as I can (on D&M thats -12, so I go to -11.5)
Then I raise the gain on each individual sub to hit 70db-75db each individually. Their combined SPL should be around 85 to 90db. Run Room EQ and let that flatten out the bass hump. Then I use a house curve to put some of that bass back. I usually do a +6db Harman curve. So while the other channels are calibrated to 75db, the subs are calibrated to 81db/91db LFE.
After I'm done. The impact is usually there.
Great summation of all your previous tips and hacks and some new insights! - Thanks! - Cheers!
I appreciate it!
I purchased 4 Starke sw15 subs after hearing the great reviews. I just need to get them dialed in.
I run dual SVS SB-3000's up front and a single SVS SB16-ULTRA in the rear of my living room home theater.
The only gentleman I go to for my subwoofer information. I have 2 svs sb-2000's in my bedroom old version and 2 pb-1000 pro's in my living room. No joke, I've used almost all of your hacks with my denon dra-800h and my Marantz stereo 70s, and I got to say you have real knowledge on this subject. I do have a question: How would you feel about stereo receiver, amplifier, av receiver, reviews? Great video. I appreciate your content.
Well thank you! Which do you prefer, ported or sealed?
I want to do more reviews on AVRs, just need to get my hands on them.
I've always preferred XT32, but recently picked up a $400 Denon AVR with the basic room correction.
Honestly, it's missing a few features I like, but overall, it's definitely a lot better than I thought it would be.
@Subwoofer101 Honestly, I like them. Both the sealed subs are great in my bedroom, fill the whole room, and go way lower than most I've heard. And the ported in my living room just work better for filling the space, especially because I only really have 3 walls because it's an open concept. However, overall, the pb-1000 pro's are probably my favorite because you want sealed sounds. Just plug them up they are definitely responsive enough to keep up with any music I've listened to anyway. Also, to actually feel your movies is just something else, man.
Yeah, sealed and ported just have a slightly different flavor to them.
Sealed subs are what led to the gain hack. Sealed subs just need more power to overcome not having a pressure release (port).
I really had to crank the exact same amp (PB-2000 and SB-2000 are the same power) to get close to the same balance.
I appreciate your feedback!
I completely agree on output. I recently contemplated and did a change from 4 ported 18s to a different configuration of all sealed subs. Someone was trying to convince me on what a bad idea it was bc I’d be losing output. I was like who cares about output at this point. Either way there’s already way more output than I could possibly need or use. I think people tend to get way too caught up in those numbers as opposed to other factors like quality of the bass, build, or other general perceived sound qualities.
Without doubt, you are by far the most insane authority in bass!
Much appreciated, insanity is my strong point!
@Subwoofer101 --- I was wondering if a 9.3.6 or 10.6.8 channel configuration makes sense, how large a room would it require?
Would any movies/games even have audio tracks that would take advantage of it?
I currently own a huge VHS/DVD collection and watch movies for free on RUclips and downloaded from free sites, I haven't bought any Nuon DVD/HD VMD/HD DVD/BD/UHD yet or used any streaming services.
I don't own any consoles/gaming omputers/arcades but am interested in modern and retro gaming.
Thanks for the video - great to get your thoughts on that!
With matching dual subs - would combing a pro and non-pro of the same series (2000) be close enough to count as matching? The drivers are the same size just more power on the pro.
I'm going with 4 Starke Sound SW15. I want 4 subs. And I want to spend $2000 max. Having looked at all my options, that seems to be the best route to take.
I've never heard more passion when describing the bass on your videos! It's kinda scary lol
I get a little excited about things sometimes 😅
What about a 3 sub setup? My room can't accommodate 4 subs coz 1 corner has the AV rack in it. So my 3 SVS PB1000 pro is placed at the 2 front corners and 1 at the rear middle. I use a miniDsp 2X4HD to integrate them.
Thank You for your channel always enjoy listening 👍
Very concise information / my personal listening opinion is sealed subs offer tighter transients and no where near as sloppy a response as any ported sub I've owned. I'm running two JBL Sub550P / 50 lb sealed 10" subs with 300 watt RMS / 500 watts peak. Easily gets to 27 hz and rumbles the entire house.
There are 2 main reasons ported subs are perceived as sloppy, from what I can tell.
First, the vast majority of ported subwoofers just aren't refined enough, and they tend to fall apart at certain frequencies, usually the lower end, where a sealed sub won't chuff because there's no port.
Any ported subwoofer I recommend is going to be HIGHLY refined.
Secondly, for whatever reason, ported subwoofers are night and day when it comes to dual vs single.
Ported subwoofers, even the very best, sound *substantially* tighter in a dual configuration, compared to the same single subwoofer.
It's not the subwoofer itself, it's the room.
Ported subwoofers I recommend couldn't be honestly described as "sloppy" in any way in a matched dual configuration.
Subs that are truly bottomless will make a big difference, it's worth auditioning a pair when you get the chance.
I appreciate the feedback!
I have a lot of respect for you but I believe you are incorrect to understate the value of 4 subs.
I could NEVER get smooth bass response in my room with 2, or even 3 subs. You need smooth bass response before you can start worrying about impact and tactile explosiveness. It doesn't matter how explosive your sub is if you have a 20db dip at 50hz.
Also, room treatments can have a lot to do with explosiveness. Room treatment paired with algorithms like MSO or DLBC have done more for my subs than any upgrade ever did. (Aside from the initial upgrade from a single klipsch whatevertheheck to 2 deep bass subs)
Another benefit to having 4 subs is that it's not simply more spl...the subs will comfortably play lower due to having more available output, hence more explosiveness. Pb 2000 originals are suppose to cut off at 17hz. When you get 4 of them and use the right tools, you can get them to go down to 14-15hz, which is a big difference
Dual subs are necessary for smooth even bass, 4 subs are mind blowing for movie realism and live performance visceral impact. I use dual SVS SB-16 Ultra.
Oh you definitely need 2 sub-woofers to even the bass out. And you also need "Back surround" speakers to have the full surround sound effect. A lot of people don't really speak about those 2 speakers? Most people just settle for the two sides surround speakers.
I'm under the impression that the gain control is just to match voltage matching voltage is what's going to give you the lowest distortion rate at the highest volume level and if you wanted something that hit harder then you buy something that hits harder.
Well, the thing is, there are ways to get more out of what you have.
My gain hack is good, not because of voltage necessarily, but the balance and relative volume of the other channels.
By keeping the main speaker levels around 0.0 dB, and dropping the AVR subwoofer level down to -11.5 or whatever is just a touch from the bottom, and turning up the subwoofer gain to compensate, the effect is typically a stronger degree of bass.
On the analog subs, this could mean going from 35% gain on the sub Dial to 75%, and it's noticeable.
I do it by default with any sub now, just to ensure I get the best performance possible.
And to your point, you can spend the money to get dual PB-16 Ultras, and without optimizing, dual PB-1000 Pro's will sound better.
Definitely not the PB 16 Ultras fault, it's just that optimizing can make THAT big of a difference.
PB-16 Ultras optimized?
Unlike anything I've ever heard. Soooo much power, yet not painful or overpowering.
Gain Hack, crossover hack, distance hack, and adjusting subs by ear all make quite a difference combined.
More wattage is a wonderful thing, but not maximizing seems unfortunate to me. Unrealized potential.
To your point of distortion, the opposite of my Gain Hack causes clipping.
High AVR Subwoofer level +11.5 instead of -11.5 and low subwoofer gain is the opposite, and it sounds pretty bad. Softer bass and clips easily.
My channel exists by breaking certain rules, when it makes sense to do so.
I appreciate your feedback, it gives me some ideas for content!
I currently have dual PB4k’s and thinking of going to quad SB16’s, 98% movies. What do your opinions say about such a move?
I know I'd prefer ported, but I have a good way for you to figure out what you prefer.
Set up your dual PB4K's as sealed, plug the ports, set the port configuration in the App as sealed, and disable all App PEQ's.
Redo room correction, set up as you normally would. Live with it for at least a month, or less if you don't like it.
If you love sealed, it's a good idea. If you prefer ported, PB-16 over SB-16.
#1 was implementing Time Alignment of Mains & Subwoofer - BEFORE this parameter was even available in AVRs or Preamp Processors. #2 was moving to Dual subwoofers. #3 implementing PEQ. #4 was moving to 4 Subwoofers WITH discreet control over each (Volume, Delay, and Phase). So it appears we are very much on the same page 😊
My question regarding multiple smaller subs is this:
Short version: does using more than one sub effectively improve bass extension at the same volume level compared to the specified roll-off?
Longer version: If bass roll-off is specified as -6dB at 30Hz that is determined against a reference 0dB (at max. output? Not sure) and it's a physical limitation of the sub. My assumption is if I use 2 subs for the same output level I can drop the volume of each sub, reducing the reference level and thereby there should be less roll-off at 30Hz. Is that correct? Thanks.
Well, the best way for me to sum up what you're asking is that the difference in extension will not be dramatic, although sealed might react a little differently than ported. Enough to write home about?
Unfortunately, no.
A sub that has 6dB roll off at 30 hertz is shallow, no 2 ways about it.
Your overall bass response is going to be close to the in-room extension of a single, just more powerful than a single, and better in every way, aside from expense and floor space.
There are some cases where you can get slightly deeper because you aren't running into as much compression (where the sub hits the limits of low end output) because you have more headroom with duals, but if that's happening, it's probably underpowered already.
I see some viewers breaking their brains and bank accounts trying to prop up weak, shallow subs that just aren't up to snuff, and to me it seems a LOT easier and cheaper in the long run to get dual deep bass subwoofers from the beginning.
Some say "rip off the bandaid", others say "buy once, cry once", but the idea is the same.
You can make a semi truck into a sports car, and it will eventually no longer resemble the semi truck it once was, and at great expense, but it's a LOT less trouble to just get a sports car to begin with.
Without question, a second matching subwoofer will improve the performance, but I couldn't put the money into shallow subs and feel good about it.
Legitimately, this channel and "The List" are designed to save you years and years of frustration, and in some cases, tens of thousands of dollars.
Long answer, but it honestly isn't a simple answer, and probably not the answer you were hoping for.
Hopefully it helps in the long run.
@@Subwoofer101 Thanks for your response. The -6dB/30Hz was just a general example, no specific sub in mind. Just wanted to know, if I'm looking to buy dual subs are the bass extension specs still 100% valid. So you're saying if there's an improvement it will not be huge.
@gaborozorai3714 Correct, I wouldn't consider any potential additional extension over a single sub's in-room response in my decision making.
It's not just whether a sub can *go deep* (factory rated response) but whether it truly **SOUNDS deep**, and it's a massive, often overlooked distinction that is genuinely night and day.
I can't tell you how many times I've been disappointed in a subwoofer that I expected great things from, even knowing exactly what I'm looking for.
The THX rating has always left me disappointed, so far. Fortunately, the Monolith 15 could be altered to run without THX mode, and it was a lot more satisfying that way.
@@Subwoofer101 Thanks for your detailed answers!
Maybe you can help me with one more thing. I listen to music only and have Klipsch Cornwalls which are of course very high efficiency. Bass slam is great but - as a trade-off with high efficiency - they don't go very low. So additional sub-bass power with control is what I want. Never had a sub before. What features and specs would you look for in such a scenario? Thanks
I see you recommend svs pb1000. For music only, what about svs sb1000 (or sb2000) because svs FAQ suggest sealed ones for music? Thank you.
Liked the video I learned a lot from this
Thank you!
The more subs the better, in my odd living room. DIY really helps. Thin wall sonotube
+ TC Sounds 12s into 4 cu sealed, equalized.
Iam using PC4000 along with Rythimik FV15 HP with mini DSP ! Both sound amazing 😍 happy to see your video after long time ❤
What would sound better for movies, 118 getting 1000 watts or 2 18's each getting 500 watts?
I have only got one subwoofer and it's a small one. In a small room I have to turn the gain almost all the way down. the subwoofer it's too loud in my room and it sounds terrible. So I can't see how another subwoofer would help
You have one small subwoofer. It is good at making one frequency that is way louder than anything else so it sounds bad. A more capable sub will have a smoother frequency response and sound better. Also, try moving the sub in your room. It makes a massive difference.
You need to start a bass drivers❤ anonymous ! Hi my name is Mike and I've been 6 months clean not tweaking my bass! I was arrested for TWD, tweaking while driving, thankfully no one was injured!
Ha! I could probably lead a meeting or 2. I've been tempted to adjust the PEQ's on the road, but I realized I'd just make more of a mess because I couldn't concentrate.
Thankfully, no arrests!
I definitely have an obsession!
I also have two different subs, I have the Klipsch SPL 150 that got in March of 2022 that I with a Klipsch surround system. After having the Klipsch Sub about eight months the amp went out so I sent it in for repairs and while there, I decided to try out the svs PB 3000. After trying it out of course it was a noticable upgrade. The Klipsch Sub was in the shop for about nine months but before getting it back I'd been thinking about getting another PB 3000 but figured I'd try the two together before spending the money for a new sub. To be honest, I think the mix subs sounds pretty good together but still thinking about getting the svs sub for Christmas and I had a choice, get the svs and have the Klipsch just take up space somewhere in the house or upgrade my living room surround system with the Sony HT A9,so I the Sony. The Klipsch is a 15" 500 watt and the svs is 13" 800 watt, I figured that was close enough to play nice together for a while. I probably will get another PB 3000 this Christmas.
I have no room for additional subs in my bedroom/single-seat HT and I have 2 different brand/size/power subs stacked on top of each other (Polk 60W, 10" from my original 5.1 setup on top of my Klipsch SPL-120). Personally I think it sounds good. I occasionally play around with sub volume in my AVR, but I'll try adding distance and see what happens. I just don't want music to be too boomy but it's OK with Tomcat afterburners, T-rexes and things of that nature :). If I move a bunch of furniture and I wait until Black Friday I MIGHT be able to replace the 2 smaller subs for a larger one that has more oomph at the low end, i.e. below 20Hz.
I had the same subs and thought 💭 I had great sounding subs… I was soo wrong till my Polk went out and wanted that 5 year warranty SVS subwoofer 🔊 are a world of difference. They’ll make you smile from ear to ear even when they are off. Just looking at my dual PB-1000 Pro and my 3 rd Sb-2000 pro behind my couch make my smile.
Great work super information 👍
Thank you!
You can only mix subs if you have a MiniDSP and a mic and are willing to take the time to make them work together. They all need to be about as capable as eachother as well. I would urge people to get the best sub you can afford now and buy another one later. The issue with buying a higher number of cheaper subs is that you will lose output on the low end. You can buy a bunch of $150 subs but you will never get under 20Hz.
4 phase and time-aligned subs is the best thing I've ever experienced.
I agree don't mix and match your subwoofers I think it's the worst thing you can possibly do.
I tried to pair my 10 inch subwoofer with my 12 inch subwoofer and it sounded terrible. When I took the ten inch subwoofer out everything sounded by far better and the 12 out performs the 10 inch subwoofer.
I appreciate this video because it taught me something about mix matching different subwoofers
I appreciate it, it's been a hard thing to easily convey.
@@Subwoofer101 yeah! and no problem
Myself I'm running dual SVS PB-3000's which I upgranned from the dual OG PB-2000's. They are nice and all but now I have bass fever and someday in my life I want to upgrade again but only once more so I want to upgrade to endgame subs. Really I wanna upgrade my whole system to a end game JTR setup. I'd kill to get dual JTR Captivator 4000ulf sub's and for the front end go with 3 Noesis 212HTR, for the surrounds go with 4 Noesis 110HT and for atmos go witheither 4 or 6 (depending if I go with 4 or 6 speaker atmos) Noesis 110HT-SL. Almost forgot, I currently have SVS Ultra bookselves for my front L & R, same for the surrounds, SVS Ultra Center for well my center lol, and 4 SVS Prime Elevation's for the atmos.
There is so much information in this short video.
From my experience - everything being said here is TRUE.
I currently run 6 identical subs each being 12". The difference from 2 subs to 6 subs is not huge but noticeable, it's the law of diminishing returns. I could buy 2 more identical subs and the difference will be minimal at best and not worth the money.
My idea for anymore reading this ----- use 2 identical subs and then use bass shakers on your chairs.
Does anyone run there subs at the max, me running basically different freqs at max volume past crowds of people
I can't do the distance hack. I use Dirac and that locks distance adjustment from the user.
EDIT: But I have used it in the past and it was pretty damn noticeable.
You are back!
I have one sb3000 as i live in an apartment.
2 Hsu VTF 2 s. Or Vtf 3s. Good valve
New video!!! Awesome!
The problem with these tests is you know what the test is. I bet if someone set up the test and asked you to give your answer, you'd get a non biased result.
I know you are incorrect to understate the value of 4 subs or more. Sub is all about placement. Even response throughout a room and several seats are all about placement of Tower-subs. Tower of subs is the ultimate when it comes to music and movies.......
Two RELT5S KLIPSH 600MS FAST AND DYNAMIC
Wow, this was frustrating and disappointing to listen through. So much incorrect information here. I really hope no one with 2-3 rows of seating in a dedicated home theater setup follows these recommendations. Gain or volume setting on the subwoofer has almost no impact on the output capability other than needing to send more signal from the surround processor. Many enthusiasts have dramatically higher expectations than you are used to and advising.
It's time to go invest in a UMIK-1 and a MIniDSP and go beyond the tune by ear only efforts. There's a whole 'nother world out there.