@@wbrennan2253 yup I'm in the same boat in michigan, only one range in the whole state has 1000yrd range that I know of. Max range I have got to is around 250.
I did some shooting at 800 meters (875yards) with my issued 14.5" M4A1 with a TA31 ACOG using m855a1 and the Maganzine as a monopod in the Army Marksmanship Master Trainer Course. I was able able to consistently get hits on a standard Green Ivan target. Took 2 rounds to figure out the hold, and then was 75% hit rate after that.
I made it to 800 so far with my psa fn marked 20in ar15. I luckily had a good spotter on good class making good calls for me. I did it with 55gr tula steel case which at that distance the bullet hardly did much to the steel target.
The wind is a lot more of an issue in your environment than mine. I live in the pnw and finding a 1000 yard shot is harder figuring out a wind hold. I thought i was a badass sniper until i shot in the desert with dust devils whipping around.
Just watched a video on a battle in the Boer War where Boers with Mausers annihilated a British artillery battery at 1000. It was so bad they couldn't recover most of the guns. I was blown away that 120 years ago rifle fire at 1000 yards was effective. Check out the battle of Colenso
The US Army created the Distinguished Rifleman designation in 1884 and qualification was at 8, 9, and 1000. A carbine course went to 600 yards. Having said that, I don’t know when the bull was standardized to 6MOA and the 10 ring became 2MOA, which is the current standard for Service Rifle. (Bear in mind also, that’s unsupported).
Full size service calibers have such an advantage over intermediate calibers it's not even funny. obviously the trade off is weight and recoil, but damn, it's almost easy to spot splash with those big ole pills without mag even at 600+
Jup, those Boers were something else. Of course in usual British arrogance the British thought they would simply crush the Boers and considered them an inferior foe, so it came as a massive shock when time and time again the Brits got their asses handed to them by the Boers. Unable to win from the Boers in a decent and honourable way, the British being what they are, exterminated tens of thousands of Boer men, women and even children in concentration camps. Absolutely sickening.
Old BDU top or even a towel placed on the ground below the muzzle and wet with some water can really help with reducing the dust lock up after the shots.
Im lucky enough that my ranch lets me shoot out to 1 mile (off the back deck). I have found the most enjoyment out of shooting 22lr out to 400 yards on cow patties. The thwack and turds exploding is always a treat.
@@A8vscRrabbit yes and we gamble. Sometimes .25 per shot, sometimes 1.00. If no one hits it carryover and add another $1.00. We have SOOO MUCH FUN!!!! All about wind and perfect fundamentals.
The time taken waiting to finish my Mk.12 is agonizing. Only have a few things left to complete it; scope, scope rings, suppressor, sling, mil-dot master. If I was out there close to you, I'd lend it to you to get a feeling of what the adopted "SPR" was. Or at the very least, as close as I have gotten together for it. The thing is HEAVY even as it is now, but I'd be lying it I said it wasn't satisfying to collect and assemble parts for.
I know everyone loves to hate on 224 Valkyrie but between that, 6.5Grendel, and 6ARC, I've never really bothered trying to take 5.56 past 800. Still, nice to see it can be done relatively inexpensively for those who want to. Thanks for the detailed video!
Wyoming is cool too, but you need a horse or a bush plane to get to the cool spots lol. My city slicker brain couldn't fathom how huge Wyoming and other Western states were until I flew out there. Also question, were you out of Cheyanne at some point? Last time I was there, I remember seeing an Airforce Twin Huey flying around and I was super Jealous.
Had to drive a few hours to find a good spot, but I recently took my 6.5 Grendel w/ 18 inch barrel out to 1000 and 1100 meters. Was able to get my 14.5 "recce" gun in 5.56 out there too. Wind was dead that day, tried again the next day with 5mph crossing winds and it was exponentially more difficult. With wind I made about 75% of my shots with the 6.5 and 10% with the 5.56, even with handloaded 77g SMK. Weak bolt faces and funky magazines aside, 6.5 Grendel is tons of fun. Handloads with 120g Hornady ELD and reliant AR-Comp shoot 0.5 MOA out of a basic bitch PSA upper. Cool video, always love to see the notification for new brass facts content. Also, y'all brought a drone but no spotting scope?
Some days the mirage is sooo bad I can't even call hits at 500 yards. Shooting long range is a great discipline I've started getting more into, and it's been a great exercise that's very different from 7-50 yard shooting most competitions have. Recently got to do a 2 man precision/AR match with targets spanning an 8 mile course from point blank to 1000 yards. One person used a precision rifle - the other a carbine. Great experience and I highly recommend it to anyone no matter your skill level as it's a great learning experience.
I mentioned this on another video but is a 600+ yard SPR in 5.56 a solution in search of a problem? Unless you are hiding in the desert a la Cochise, the range you’re likely to fight at is sub 400 yards. I’ve read a few books on snipers in Iraq saying they got more kills using their tricked out m4’s under 400 yards. I’d say past that range, 5.56 is pretty anemic, and like you found, doesn’t buck the wind. It turns into volume of fire when a .308 AR would have been a better bet from the get go. Still I don’t blame you because it is pretty cool to see what you can do with mk12 clones/analogues.
I'm looking to get into 308 soon. But I figure this would be a nice capstone to my 556 range journey, and helps me better contextualize what 308 gives me vs 556. And yeah 77gr at 1000 yards has less energy than a 22LR at the muzzle it's pretty depressing haha
The thing is, the SPR/Mk.12 was never intended to be a sniping platform. It was the receiver/rifle for the spotter should the team need to engage a target that wasn't one of the objective targets, as well as to extend the accurate range of the M4A1. This was done in a time before the M855A1, before the M110, and before the SOCOM profile barrels for the M4A1. It was the best that was available at the time, but it's also stuck 20 years in the past. Things have changed around it, and it's usefulness has passed.
You should give yourself credit for the hits you’re making at 1k, that’s a 1 moa target you’re shooting at. Service rifle shooters are shooting at a 6 moa black, with longer barrels and heavier bullets. My service rifle has a 20” barrel and 1/6.5 twist for heavier bullets. It’s only got a 1-4.5 variable on it though, still your spr is far more practical than my service rifle is. I would call what you’re doing there a success.
The Hornady 4DOF app is a very good tool, I have found it to be more accurate than strelok at longer ranges. The setup of the calculator is a little more complex but it pays off very well. I would suggest giving it a try.
I’ve been doing some longer range shooting with my AR15/AR10 recently. Much like you, wind has been an issue here in AZ due to the monsoon season. Getting out early in the morning is key ⛈
I have almost made a career out of shooting my AR at 1000 yards in NRA governed US Service Rifle Division Competition. My average score is 94 % with iron sights and what I know for sure is since the bullet only has an MOA wind constant of 10 at 1000 yards (80 grain Berger) it’s the most difficult shooting there is but also the most useful shooting if developing marksmanship to the highest plateau is the objective. Now, a good start to this sort of shooting is attending Small Arms Firing School, a Service Rifle Marksmanship Training event hosted by the CMP and taught by the USAMU annually in late July at Camp Perry Ohio. It’s the best training there is, period.
Think you might pick up a Kestrel at some point? I started using Strelok and switched over recently. Far more accurate calculations, especially in different environments. Bonus points if you have a rangefinder that links with your kestrel. Just laze and dial.
Been hitting some of the back catalog, 5.56 is so marginal at 1000, even if you have all of the factors tilted in your favor. That's what makes it fun.
For any practical application of the skill, walking it in only counts if you're running a belt fed, but it's a cool feeling. For practical application you make hits when intended. My SPR is capable of this as well with me behind it, but I can make cold bore and first round hits to 825m only. I don't see this as a problem as 77gr Black Hills in my SPR loses terminal ballistics around 811m. So, learning to use the tool and learning how to best sharpen your skills are what matters. So 3 things I'll offer up. Go take a precision rifle class from someone who legitimately knowns how to make wind calls and can teach you how, that's the hardest part. If your scope doesn't have parallax adjustment buy one that does, head checking parallax before every string is stupid, trust me I've done it. Get your spotter behind/over you so they can fully utilize your vapor trail and help make proper corrections because at that distance your wind call is the most important tool to making a follow-up shot. Oh and don't forget to factor in your spin drift!!!
I am a bit curious as to how different your range session would be with a dedicated spotting scope, I know that they are an investment but if you take in to account the gained clarity and field of view, you might save some more ammo and learn more with each shot, plus i know some models are easy to film with too.
easily 10x better. We have issues making corrections in some lighting conditions and positions. This day wasn't really needed since we set the target up against a very obvious backdrop to spot misses. But other locations we sorely need it
One thing with the 308 to keep in mind is it is moving at the same speed as 77gr 556. Only it weighs over twice as much and has a .41 g1 bc (tula) while nice 308 would be even bigger of a gap.
I'm not so sure about the 5.56 to 600 and beyond. To do so, I need to buy premium ammo. At that price, I can buy bulk 7.62NATO and hit further ranges a little easier with more effect on target. Adding a 7.62 DMR to my aresenal adds more capabilities than a 5.56 SPR would Commanilty and training costs is a win for 5.56 tho
Everything is a balancing act of trade offs. I think, in general, a 5.56 SPR has more baseline capability than an AR-10. If you already have a GPR or whatever, adding a second rifle might increase capability more, but you have to have that second rifle. Meaning you have to choose it over another rifle, shlup 2 rifles or be in a situation where you are close to your vehicle. Brass has a video about the SPR concept, as a long(er) range platform that can still do fighting rifle stuff. You loose a lot of that light/fast fighting rifle mojo with a larger, heavier platform. Lots of people are throwing the sig Spear side-eye over that fact. Personally, I have a 6.5 Grendel upper for my usually 5.56 "recce" rifle. It only adds 4.5 pounds (plus ammo) to my pack if I choose to bring it and gives me a way to reach out further with better terminal ballistics. Different strokes for different folks.
The point of a SPR is that it’s a compromise. In the military world loads like mk262 and mk318 or even m855a1 (much better overall than regular m855) cost almost nothing Have a simple sully chain makes worlds of difference Sure can a 7.62 dnr push even farther with better ammo? Yes. Would it be easier? Yes But that ammo is now no longer shared by the rest of your team and you’re a special snowflake who needs special attention with supply Raw capability < commonality and availability when at war. Most engagement’s rarely exceed 300m even less so farther than 600m and even less at 1000 yards. A SPR shines in real combat environments and allows you to keep common ammo and MORE ammo on your body
@@clutchclutch13 They stop being "trade offs" when you compromise every part of a rifle to have a sliver of something else. Here, you have a gun that is suboptimal at room clearing, decent at urban ranges, ~30% hit rate at 1k, and most assuredly has the velocity of an interwar police/service revolver round on impact at that range. Not to mention the time it takes to get set up and do the math it takes to even _get_ that 30%, I have to question the effectiveness of this doctrine in combat. They've seen you, they know where you are, and that's because you've been taking ranging shots and making bad wind calls for the last ten minutes. As for ammo commonality and universal compatibility, that's something else I find somewhat questionable. Mixed arms focus has been pretty common, or at least it used to be to my understanding. Not really a "special snowflake who needs special attention with supply" when your breacher and LMG are also using different calibers. Especially when that's how it's been for over a century, your rifleman and your submachinegunner often having little in the way of compatible equipment back in The War. In addition, how much does it matter that you can carry 1.5x the amount of ammunition, when you have to use 3x the amount to hit your target? What if you _can't_ hit your target? Yeah, M855A1 in volume is cheap, for the military. But I'm out here with a few K of M193, I need to make it count. Sidearms exist for a reason. I have a 20" setup focused for mid urban ranges, and a pistol for everything inside 3x. Need to get an LPVO, TBH; but hey, no horizontal grips, so I'm not be a complete idiot.
I love my home state, but I'd trade a kidney to have the shooting/outdoor environment you have. There just aren't that many wide open spaces around here, and the ones that are can be full of drunks and tweakers (I've had to avoid a few fights).
You're definitely a better shooter than me but I second your closing line about the "Nugget like me." I think we all like to lie to ourself and make it seem like our skills are more special than they are. I'm not saying there isn't technique and skill to be had but with our modern equipment most of the stuff is pretty doable. I am definitely the weakest link in my system. No question about it.
I have only shot out to 300m with my FNA4 20" barrel AR, so far its MOA with the right FMJ. Do you use a milspec trigger or an aftermarket option? I'm finding a milspec isn't the best for precision but I make it work. Holosun HE515GT red dot and HM3X magnifier is my setup for close and far but I need more magnification.
The main problem with 5.56 is it doesn't stay supersonic at 1000 yards. Don't get me wrong, it's kind of neat that you can do it, but I can't see any scenario where you would have a combat/tactical advantage over an opponent. Don't try to make your gun a "do it all gun". You'll only make it a jack of all trades but a master at none. use a bullet with superior ballistic coefficients for longer ranges. Like your buddy with the 308. He didn't even need any DOPE or to sight in the rifle. Your 5.56 is still useful, just not out pass 500 yards (depending on ammo). Good show though.
Have you tried a truing drop calculation in your ballistic calculator? The initial calculation should get you close, but most ballistic calculators will adjust the arch based on your actual results.
bench/prone shooting 101: you want the longest length of pull that is comfortable. You look really scrunched up behind your collapsible stock guns. Let the stock out all the way. The guy shooting the fixed stock gun had good body mechanics
Great video! I suggest everyone with an AR-15 and access to a long range try this out. It's a gateway into that precision rifle world. But with that said...5.56 is really weak.. Maybe better to just spend more time closing in and taking shots at 500-600 yds? Maybe just practice raining bullets on multiple targets at those DMR ranges (300-600 yds)? Like, simulating a mid/long range ambush on a group of baddies.
An interesting extension of this discussion would be terminal ballistics at this range for 5.56. I believe some rounds out of full size barrels may be sufficient, but most are not likely to have sufficient wounding characteristics.
You dont really need the gel, we know what 5.56 does at different velocities angles. We know what velocity and angle it comes in at for a 1000yd hit for a given load, barrel, and conditions. The summation is the OTM will be crushed on impact slightly enlarging the ordinarily 5.5mm hole, but likely not immediatly debilitating. The alternative is the round destabilizes and becomes lodged in the target. Again potentially fatal, but unlikely to debilitate. There will be none of tbe hydrostatic shock and violent fragmentation that does the work for 5.56 at close range/high velocity.
I've spoken with some Marine grunts and a couple MARSOC guys about the Mk. 12 system. The consensus I got was that they would almost never take a cold shot beyond 700 meters with that gun. Terminal effect was not great and sometimes a guy would run half a mile before dropping dead. For the most part, the grunts kept the Mk. 12 in the guard tower to supplement the 240. MARSOC liked having a light DMR for overwatch on their Direct Action raids, plus it was easier to hump around in the mountains than the M110 or the SCAR if they had to go on foot somewhere and couldn't take a 4-wheeler or a dirtbike. IMO, the general SPR concept is kinda like the MP5. It's a neat weapon system that's useful in certain niche applications, but it's overshadowed by newer, more versatile and more powerful weapons.
@@morgan3688 It's definitely not an ideal amount of energy for rapid debilitation at 1000, but I think it is highly target depending. If you're engaging a scavenger/raider/rioter at 1000 in some sort of civil unrest scenario, causing any sort of major bleed will probably be enough to debilitate (over time). The chances they can continue to fight or have the necessary medical equipment to survive would be pretty slim.
Thanks again. I enjoy your videos a lot - more than I do shooting. I think I have to admit that I don't like shooting much, which kinda sounds like admitting I am communist or something. Even as a long range 'nugget' you are way way beyond me. The last time I shot past 300yds was '90 or '91 and that was with an M2.
Strelok pro has a correction calculator in it. Where you can enter your zero your 400 your 600 you're 800 or however many you want to and it will recalculate for you to a better table. You will not get the exact table by just using FPS alone. No ballistic app is capable of that. Normally two distances work fine I use 200 and 700 and the rest is perfect till trans-sonic
@@BrassFacts Cool, thanks for the reply. I'd been looking to do so.ething like that and that was the thus far, best solution I could find. Hopefully in time the market catches up and offers a simpler, better solution.
LOVED THIS VIDEO. I WORK AT CHRISTENSEN ARMS AND WE HAVE THIS DISCUSSION ALL THE TIME. THE LONGE RANGE SHOOTERS MAKE THEIR JOKES THAT I LOVE THE 223/556 ROUND AND HOW FAR CAN I GET IT TO GO AND WHAT IS THE KNOCKDOWN AT THAT DISTANCE. I SPEAK WITH PEOPLE ALL THE TIME AND MOST DO NOT GET WHAT IT TAKES TO THROW IT THAT FAR AND THAT ACCURATELY. IT'S NOT THAT EASY! GREAT CONTENT!
I know the 5.56 will make hits out to 1k plus but I just do not have faith in the round carrying the energy I’d be comfortable with past 500 max. But I understand the philosophy behind what your doing. Can’t always have a designated marksman with a .306/6.5/.300 WM
How was that large center chevron on the PA scope at that distance? Had to cover the entire target up didn’t it? And no wind holds off of the chevron since you were dialing.
Recurrent theme: You don't wear eyewear. This time you get sh*t in your eyes (like at 9:30)😁. But yeah, glasses makes it hard to get a consistent hold for me as well.
@@BrassFacts I would go 308 over 6.5, yes 6.5 performs better once you’re past 500 but you can always find 308 ammo. Would you run a straight up sass 20in, battle rifle 16in, or would you try to split the difference with an 18? A 12.5 would be cool for an urban battle rifle since you would still have the juice to go through brick and cinder block but a little shorter and really not that different from a 16in 5.56 once you put a can on the 12.5 308
@@ExplorinInTheWoods I honestly haven't thought thata much about it yet. Most like a 18 or 20" But I also want to try a 16" and come at from two angles "Battle rifle" vs "SASS"
@@BrassFacts I'm in the middle of an Aero M5, 308 AR build...but I don't suggest any AR10 for a precision gun. The recoil is ridiculous. You know how you can easily see your shots when shooting 77's from a heavy AR with a short dwell time? It's the opposite with a 308. Lol! But those heavy 308 bullets do put up more dust to help show you where your shot went. I just finished an 18" 6ARC that weighs about 10.5 lbs. Even that pushes you around more than I expected launching 112gn bullets. 105's and maybe an adjustable gas block might help there. But really, the precision world is best enjoyed with bolt guns. The AR bolt carrier mass is one thing, but the lock time difference is key.
Love this series, I continue to hate the "do everything" rifle concept. It doesnt exist, and chasing it just leaves you with a bunch of compromises making a machine that's good at nothing mediocre at everything a la the Bradley. Each tool has a specific use case, if you have another use case get another tool. Don't open letters with an angle grinder and don't take the same rifle you use to clear rooms out to 1000yds The right way to approach this situation IMHO be an LPVO on a 16 inch rifle, and if the situation calls for more than that.... someone is running to the truck for the 6.5 Creedmoor SPR topped with a 5-25x
The idea is that you might only have the option of 1 rifle for en extended period (have to hike in or smth) hence the necessity of compromise to maintain a passable fighting rifle at all times. If you always assume you can run to a truck to grab another gun, everyone would have a full arsenal at all times. If that's your only plan, good luck
@@Jacob-zo5fv yeah ok you can easily throw a dedicated DMR into a soft case and strap that bitch to the side of your ruck. If you are for some reason dead set on a dismounted patrol (?) And if that additional weight makes that much of an issue you should probably be rucking more and maybe not be fat
@@Jacob-zo5fv Except that's never been the argument. The closest thing I would guess to that argument that is being made is your rifle needs to fit the mission. If you are expecting to get into long range fights, you need to be able to perform in long range fights. If you are using an SPR where you have a 30% hit rate at 1k yards, and get into a sniper fight with a dude running 28 Nosler, you're screwed, even if you are within 1k yards or so. Personally, if you are trying to focus on 200+ yard engagements, I think you should bump it up to a 20" for the extra velocity, and use a handgun or PDW for interior usage. You already have the handgun by default, so you already aren't restricted to just the rifle, so it needs to be part of the equation as well. Not to mention, this does not include squad composition. If you are in a multi-person team, it is valuable for having certain people take dedicated roles, hence DMRs and the like. That way your doorkickers can do their thing with 14.5s and 12ga buck, meanwhile your DM is doing his thing taking long-range shots off into elsewhere. Do SPRs have value? Yes. Your equipment should not be limited to the statistically likely side of engagement. But at the same time, you cannot have a rifle that does everything, and trying to make a gun that can room clear and hit half-mile shots at the same time is going to require so much compromise that it undermines it's ability to do either.
Yeah you need a dpms ar10 for this range the effective range of 556 is really petering out at 600 yards haha at 1000 yards that 556 isn’t even going to move the plate be very hard to see a hit without a good spotting scope haha
Aye aye aye. I really want to get out to beyond 500 yards. But everywhere around me is membership only super rich. 250 a month. And long ramge is 1 time a month. The 500 yards i have access to is onle once a month too. But its only 100 bucks. Everything else here in south florida is all public land where sooting is banned. Evem largely for hunting...go figure. Theres areas where i could go..... but.... Rangers and fwc patrol constantly. And you will get fined or arrested for it. Happens all the time.
Finding 1000 yards to shoot at is harder than hitting at 1000 yards in some places 🥴
agreed
Michigan has way too many trees. And trying to explain to various farmers why you are looking to shoot across all the fields😓
Having a 1000 yard range is as much of a flex as making impacts
@@wbrennan2253 yup I'm in the same boat in michigan, only one range in the whole state has 1000yrd range that I know of. Max range I have got to is around 250.
Facts, especially on the east coast
I did some shooting at 800 meters (875yards) with my issued 14.5" M4A1 with a TA31 ACOG using m855a1 and the Maganzine as a monopod in the Army Marksmanship Master Trainer Course. I was able able to consistently get hits on a standard Green Ivan target. Took 2 rounds to figure out the hold, and then was 75% hit rate after that.
M855A1 is a great cartridge
The most important part of what you do is that you get people to go out and try things
Me like this mindset 💪
I made it to 800 so far with my psa fn marked 20in ar15. I luckily had a good spotter on good class making good calls for me. I did it with 55gr tula steel case which at that distance the bullet hardly did much to the steel target.
Those PSA FN uppers are really nice, I like mine.
@@OfficialFedHater I’ll have to do some videoing with mine. I got a DMR match coming up and need to true the DOPE anyway
I like to add water to the ground around my muzzle, to reduce the dust kicking up. Thanks for the share!!
probably a good idea, especially when the moon dust comes out
@@BrassFacts Ah yes, tasty moon dust.
unless water is in short supply...
Thanks for all the work you do educating the world about brass.
The wind is a lot more of an issue in your environment than mine. I live in the pnw and finding a 1000 yard shot is harder figuring out a wind hold. I thought i was a badass sniper until i shot in the desert with dust devils whipping around.
I laughed really hard, because the timing was perfect
"wind seems good today"
"is that a fucking dust devil"
...
Just watched a video on a battle in the Boer War where Boers with Mausers annihilated a British artillery battery at 1000. It was so bad they couldn't recover most of the guns. I was blown away that 120 years ago rifle fire at 1000 yards was effective. Check out the battle of Colenso
There was a sniper in the American civil war(1864) who got a kill at 1390 yards with a Whitworth rifle.
The US Army created the Distinguished Rifleman designation in 1884 and qualification was at 8, 9, and 1000. A carbine course went to 600 yards. Having said that, I don’t know when the bull was standardized to 6MOA and the 10 ring became 2MOA, which is the current standard for Service Rifle. (Bear in mind also, that’s unsupported).
Full size service calibers have such an advantage over intermediate calibers it's not even funny. obviously the trade off is weight and recoil, but damn, it's almost easy to spot splash with those big ole pills without mag even at 600+
They were also firing en masse at an artillery battery sized target.
Jup, those Boers were something else. Of course in usual British arrogance the British thought they would simply crush the Boers and considered them an inferior foe, so it came as a massive shock when time and time again the Brits got their asses handed to them by the Boers. Unable to win from the Boers in a decent and honourable way, the British being what they are, exterminated tens of thousands of Boer men, women and even children in concentration camps. Absolutely sickening.
that last clip really demonstrates how much better 308 is at those ranges
haha yeah. "I see your precision ammo and raise you "unzero'd tula"
Chapters:
0:00 : Intro
0:55 : Ammo (55gr FMJ, 77gr OTM)
2:26 : SPR setup
3:56 : Chronograph, ballistic calculator
4:55 : Wind
6:20 : Technique
8:34 : Footage/Outro
always delivering!
Not all heroes wear capes 🫡
What ammo brands do you like for 55fmj?
Old BDU top or even a towel placed on the ground below the muzzle and wet with some water can really help with reducing the dust lock up after the shots.
Im lucky enough that my ranch lets me shoot out to 1 mile (off the back deck). I have found the most enjoyment out of shooting 22lr out to 400 yards on cow patties. The thwack and turds exploding is always a treat.
We hang golf balls at 400 and 450. I've learned more from doing that then all the range sessions at a thousand plus yard put together
@@hawaiiangunner are you doing that with a .22lr?
@@A8vscRrabbit yes and we gamble. Sometimes .25 per shot, sometimes 1.00. If no one hits it carryover and add another $1.00. We have SOOO MUCH FUN!!!! All about wind and perfect fundamentals.
The time taken waiting to finish my Mk.12 is agonizing. Only have a few things left to complete it; scope, scope rings, suppressor, sling, mil-dot master.
If I was out there close to you, I'd lend it to you to get a feeling of what the adopted "SPR" was. Or at the very least, as close as I have gotten together for it. The thing is HEAVY even as it is now, but I'd be lying it I said it wasn't satisfying to collect and assemble parts for.
I know everyone loves to hate on 224 Valkyrie but between that, 6.5Grendel, and 6ARC, I've never really bothered trying to take 5.56 past 800. Still, nice to see it can be done relatively inexpensively for those who want to.
Thanks for the detailed video!
I love Wyoming but I really need to get out to Utah more often or move there in the future. The range and mountains are such a vibe.
Wyoming is cool too, but you need a horse or a bush plane to get to the cool spots lol. My city slicker brain couldn't fathom how huge Wyoming and other Western states were until I flew out there.
Also question, were you out of Cheyanne at some point? Last time I was there, I remember seeing an Airforce Twin Huey flying around and I was super Jealous.
Had to drive a few hours to find a good spot, but I recently took my 6.5 Grendel w/ 18 inch barrel out to 1000 and 1100 meters. Was able to get my 14.5 "recce" gun in 5.56 out there too. Wind was dead that day, tried again the next day with 5mph crossing winds and it was exponentially more difficult. With wind I made about 75% of my shots with the 6.5 and 10% with the 5.56, even with handloaded 77g SMK.
Weak bolt faces and funky magazines aside, 6.5 Grendel is tons of fun. Handloads with 120g Hornady ELD and reliant AR-Comp shoot 0.5 MOA out of a basic bitch PSA upper.
Cool video, always love to see the notification for new brass facts content.
Also, y'all brought a drone but no spotting scope?
I dont own a spotting scope :(
@@BrassFacts I clicked on a link on another video for the discord server. The invite is invalid. Is the discord server still up or what?
@@BrassFacts Change that
@@dutch1995 subscribe star has a donate button.
I think I'll need about 1200 for the one I want
Thanks again!
Some days the mirage is sooo bad I can't even call hits at 500 yards. Shooting long range is a great discipline I've started getting more into, and it's been a great exercise that's very different from 7-50 yard shooting most competitions have.
Recently got to do a 2 man precision/AR match with targets spanning an 8 mile course from point blank to 1000 yards. One person used a precision rifle - the other a carbine. Great experience and I highly recommend it to anyone no matter your skill level as it's a great learning experience.
that seems like a blast.
That sounds awesome. What state?
Cool work man, I regularly hit 100 yards 10 times in a row so that’s basically the same thing …
I mentioned this on another video but is a 600+ yard SPR in 5.56 a solution in search of a problem? Unless you are hiding in the desert a la Cochise, the range you’re likely to fight at is sub 400 yards. I’ve read a few books on snipers in Iraq saying they got more kills using their tricked out m4’s under 400 yards. I’d say past that range, 5.56 is pretty anemic, and like you found, doesn’t buck the wind. It turns into volume of fire when a .308 AR would have been a better bet from the get go.
Still I don’t blame you because it is pretty cool to see what you can do with mk12 clones/analogues.
I'm looking to get into 308 soon. But I figure this would be a nice capstone to my 556 range journey, and helps me better contextualize what 308 gives me vs 556.
And yeah 77gr at 1000 yards has less energy than a 22LR at the muzzle it's pretty depressing haha
The thing is, the SPR/Mk.12 was never intended to be a sniping platform. It was the receiver/rifle for the spotter should the team need to engage a target that wasn't one of the objective targets, as well as to extend the accurate range of the M4A1. This was done in a time before the M855A1, before the M110, and before the SOCOM profile barrels for the M4A1. It was the best that was available at the time, but it's also stuck 20 years in the past. Things have changed around it, and it's usefulness has passed.
I'm having a hard time finding a range further than 200 yds, cant even imagine 1000
Using accurate ammunition is not a "crutch" any more than using an accurate rifle or quality glass or a chrono.
Yup. Trying to shoot at extended range with non-match ammo is like trying to hammer a screw.
People make up weird reasons to not buy good ammo or learn to handload
There’s no need for a Dickens Drill if you take out the shooter before he gets to the town
I laughed.
You should give yourself credit for the hits you’re making at 1k, that’s a 1 moa target you’re shooting at. Service rifle shooters are shooting at a 6 moa black, with longer barrels and heavier bullets. My service rifle has a 20” barrel and 1/6.5 twist for heavier bullets. It’s only got a 1-4.5 variable on it though, still your spr is far more practical than my service rifle is. I would call what you’re doing there a success.
The Hornady 4DOF app is a very good tool, I have found it to be more accurate than strelok at longer ranges. The setup of the calculator is a little more complex but it pays off very well. I would suggest giving it a try.
I’ve been doing some longer range shooting with my AR15/AR10 recently. Much like you, wind has been an issue here in AZ due to the monsoon season. Getting out early in the morning is key ⛈
I have almost made a career out of shooting my AR at 1000 yards in NRA governed US Service Rifle Division Competition. My average score is 94 % with iron sights and what I know for sure is since the bullet only has an MOA wind constant of 10 at 1000 yards (80 grain Berger) it’s the most difficult shooting there is but also the most useful shooting if developing marksmanship to the highest plateau is the objective. Now, a good start to this sort of shooting is attending Small Arms Firing School, a Service Rifle Marksmanship Training event hosted by the CMP and taught by the USAMU annually in late July at Camp Perry Ohio. It’s the best training there is, period.
Think you might pick up a Kestrel at some point? I started using Strelok and switched over recently. Far more accurate calculations, especially in different environments.
Bonus points if you have a rangefinder that links with your kestrel. Just laze and dial.
My nutnfancy clone correct SPR shoots that Norma 77gr stuff in sub half MOA. Good stuff BF!
Back on the notification squad
Been hitting some of the back catalog, 5.56 is so marginal at 1000, even if you have all of the factors tilted in your favor. That's what makes it fun.
For any practical application of the skill, walking it in only counts if you're running a belt fed, but it's a cool feeling. For practical application you make hits when intended. My SPR is capable of this as well with me behind it, but I can make cold bore and first round hits to 825m only. I don't see this as a problem as 77gr Black Hills in my SPR loses terminal ballistics around 811m. So, learning to use the tool and learning how to best sharpen your skills are what matters. So 3 things I'll offer up. Go take a precision rifle class from someone who legitimately knowns how to make wind calls and can teach you how, that's the hardest part. If your scope doesn't have parallax adjustment buy one that does, head checking parallax before every string is stupid, trust me I've done it. Get your spotter behind/over you so they can fully utilize your vapor trail and help make proper corrections because at that distance your wind call is the most important tool to making a follow-up shot. Oh and don't forget to factor in your spin drift!!!
I am a bit curious as to how different your range session would be with a dedicated spotting scope, I know that they are an investment but if you take in to account the gained clarity and field of view, you might save some more ammo and learn more with each shot, plus i know some models are easy to film with too.
easily 10x better. We have issues making corrections in some lighting conditions and positions.
This day wasn't really needed since we set the target up against a very obvious backdrop to spot misses.
But other locations we sorely need it
One thing with the 308 to keep in mind is it is moving at the same speed as 77gr 556. Only it weighs over twice as much and has a .41 g1 bc (tula) while nice 308 would be even bigger of a gap.
Nice TJ and Nice rifle
Cool to know that was you guys over there. I work relatively close to where you guys were.
To do this work a spotting scope is an absolute must. I didn't see any in the video.
Shweeeeet. Thanks as always!
Looks like fun guys, keep up the great content.
I'm not so sure about the 5.56 to 600 and beyond. To do so, I need to buy premium ammo. At that price, I can buy bulk 7.62NATO and hit further ranges a little easier with more effect on target.
Adding a 7.62 DMR to my aresenal adds more capabilities than a 5.56 SPR would
Commanilty and training costs is a win for 5.56 tho
Everything is a balancing act of trade offs. I think, in general, a 5.56 SPR has more baseline capability than an AR-10. If you already have a GPR or whatever, adding a second rifle might increase capability more, but you have to have that second rifle. Meaning you have to choose it over another rifle, shlup 2 rifles or be in a situation where you are close to your vehicle.
Brass has a video about the SPR concept, as a long(er) range platform that can still do fighting rifle stuff. You loose a lot of that light/fast fighting rifle mojo with a larger, heavier platform. Lots of people are throwing the sig Spear side-eye over that fact.
Personally, I have a 6.5 Grendel upper for my usually 5.56 "recce" rifle. It only adds 4.5 pounds (plus ammo) to my pack if I choose to bring it and gives me a way to reach out further with better terminal ballistics.
Different strokes for different folks.
The point of a SPR is that it’s a compromise. In the military world loads like mk262 and mk318 or even m855a1 (much better overall than regular m855) cost almost nothing
Have a simple sully chain makes worlds of difference
Sure can a 7.62 dnr push even farther with better ammo? Yes. Would it be easier? Yes
But that ammo is now no longer shared by the rest of your team and you’re a special snowflake who needs special attention with supply
Raw capability < commonality and availability when at war.
Most engagement’s rarely exceed 300m even less so farther than 600m and even less at 1000 yards.
A SPR shines in real combat environments and allows you to keep common ammo and MORE ammo on your body
@@clutchclutch13 They stop being "trade offs" when you compromise every part of a rifle to have a sliver of something else. Here, you have a gun that is suboptimal at room clearing, decent at urban ranges, ~30% hit rate at 1k, and most assuredly has the velocity of an interwar police/service revolver round on impact at that range. Not to mention the time it takes to get set up and do the math it takes to even _get_ that 30%, I have to question the effectiveness of this doctrine in combat. They've seen you, they know where you are, and that's because you've been taking ranging shots and making bad wind calls for the last ten minutes.
As for ammo commonality and universal compatibility, that's something else I find somewhat questionable. Mixed arms focus has been pretty common, or at least it used to be to my understanding. Not really a "special snowflake who needs special attention with supply" when your breacher and LMG are also using different calibers. Especially when that's how it's been for over a century, your rifleman and your submachinegunner often having little in the way of compatible equipment back in The War. In addition, how much does it matter that you can carry 1.5x the amount of ammunition, when you have to use 3x the amount to hit your target? What if you _can't_ hit your target?
Yeah, M855A1 in volume is cheap, for the military. But I'm out here with a few K of M193, I need to make it count. Sidearms exist for a reason. I have a 20" setup focused for mid urban ranges, and a pistol for everything inside 3x. Need to get an LPVO, TBH; but hey, no horizontal grips, so I'm not be a complete idiot.
@@MyLonewolf25 but my GPR can do everything I might need to 4-500. An SPR gives very little advantage over a standard AR
Use Applied Ballistics, true velo before transonic, true BC after transonic. 18” 5.56 77smks out to 1380 so far.
I love my home state, but I'd trade a kidney to have the shooting/outdoor environment you have. There just aren't that many wide open spaces around here, and the ones that are can be full of drunks and tweakers (I've had to avoid a few fights).
You're definitely a better shooter than me but I second your closing line about the "Nugget like me." I think we all like to lie to ourself and make it seem like our skills are more special than they are. I'm not saying there isn't technique and skill to be had but with our modern equipment most of the stuff is pretty doable.
I am definitely the weakest link in my system. No question about it.
I feel that a 3-18 would work amazing in a spr role
it could for sure yeah.
I have only shot out to 300m with my FNA4 20" barrel AR, so far its MOA with the right FMJ. Do you use a milspec trigger or an aftermarket option? I'm finding a milspec isn't the best for precision but I make it work. Holosun HE515GT red dot and HM3X magnifier is my setup for close and far but I need more magnification.
The main problem with 5.56 is it doesn't stay supersonic at 1000 yards. Don't get me wrong, it's kind of neat that you can do it, but I can't see any scenario where you would have a combat/tactical advantage over an opponent. Don't try to make your gun a "do it all gun". You'll only make it a jack of all trades but a master at none. use a bullet with superior ballistic coefficients for longer ranges. Like your buddy with the 308. He didn't even need any DOPE or to sight in the rifle. Your 5.56 is still useful, just not out pass 500 yards (depending on ammo). Good show though.
What mount do you use for that piggybacked 509t?
Brass Facts Friday
For today’s presentation we present.
Two guys ,One shooting Mat.
Hoping you guys will get into AR10s at some point, preferably shorter barrel lengths. 16/14.5 :)
Have you tried a truing drop calculation in your ballistic calculator? The initial calculation should get you close, but most ballistic calculators will adjust the arch based on your actual results.
bench/prone shooting 101: you want the longest length of pull that is comfortable. You look really scrunched up behind your collapsible stock guns. Let the stock out all the way. The guy shooting the fixed stock gun had good body mechanics
Great video! I suggest everyone with an AR-15 and access to a long range try this out. It's a gateway into that precision rifle world.
But with that said...5.56 is really weak.. Maybe better to just spend more time closing in and taking shots at 500-600 yds? Maybe just practice raining bullets on multiple targets at those DMR ranges (300-600 yds)? Like, simulating a mid/long range ambush on a group of baddies.
The max range I've push my spr rig is 600m (roughly 650yds)
I plan on pushing it to 800 at some point
Brass. We shoot same place. But backwards. Each road crossing is about 200 ish yards.
Eye pro my man, you only get one pair
An interesting extension of this discussion would be terminal ballistics at this range for 5.56. I believe some rounds out of full size barrels may be sufficient, but most are not likely to have sufficient wounding characteristics.
We want to try and hit some ballistics gel at range and see the effect
You dont really need the gel, we know what 5.56 does at different velocities angles. We know what velocity and angle it comes in at for a 1000yd hit for a given load, barrel, and conditions.
The summation is the OTM will be crushed on impact slightly enlarging the ordinarily 5.5mm hole, but likely not immediatly debilitating. The alternative is the round destabilizes and becomes lodged in the target. Again potentially fatal, but unlikely to debilitate.
There will be none of tbe hydrostatic shock and violent fragmentation that does the work for 5.56 at close range/high velocity.
I've spoken with some Marine grunts and a couple MARSOC guys about the Mk. 12 system. The consensus I got was that they would almost never take a cold shot beyond 700 meters with that gun. Terminal effect was not great and sometimes a guy would run half a mile before dropping dead. For the most part, the grunts kept the Mk. 12 in the guard tower to supplement the 240. MARSOC liked having a light DMR for overwatch on their Direct Action raids, plus it was easier to hump around in the mountains than the M110 or the SCAR if they had to go on foot somewhere and couldn't take a 4-wheeler or a dirtbike.
IMO, the general SPR concept is kinda like the MP5. It's a neat weapon system that's useful in certain niche applications, but it's overshadowed by newer, more versatile and more powerful weapons.
@@morgan3688 It's definitely not an ideal amount of energy for rapid debilitation at 1000, but I think it is highly target depending. If you're engaging a scavenger/raider/rioter at 1000 in some sort of civil unrest scenario, causing any sort of major bleed will probably be enough to debilitate (over time). The chances they can continue to fight or have the necessary medical equipment to survive would be pretty slim.
for sure. on paper we're looking at less or similar energies to a 22LR at the muzzle.
But sometimes seeing is believing.
Thanks again. I enjoy your videos a lot - more than I do shooting. I think I have to admit that I don't like shooting much, which kinda sounds like admitting I am communist or something. Even as a long range 'nugget' you are way way beyond me. The last time I shot past 300yds was '90 or '91 and that was with an M2.
Strelok pro has a correction calculator in it. Where you can enter your zero your 400 your 600 you're 800 or however many you want to and it will recalculate for you to a better table. You will not get the exact table by just using FPS alone. No ballistic app is capable of that. Normally two distances work fine I use 200 and 700 and the rest is perfect till trans-sonic
I dig the piggy-backed red dot. Is that a 509t on a Larure RMR mount and an adaptor, or some other combination?
correct! it sits a bit higher than I like. but it works
@@BrassFacts Cool, thanks for the reply. I'd been looking to do so.ething like that and that was the thus far, best solution I could find. Hopefully in time the market catches up and offers a simpler, better solution.
LOVED THIS VIDEO. I WORK AT CHRISTENSEN ARMS AND WE HAVE THIS DISCUSSION ALL THE TIME. THE LONGE RANGE SHOOTERS MAKE THEIR JOKES THAT I LOVE THE 223/556 ROUND AND HOW FAR CAN I GET IT TO GO AND WHAT IS THE KNOCKDOWN AT THAT DISTANCE. I SPEAK WITH PEOPLE ALL THE TIME AND MOST DO NOT GET WHAT IT TAKES TO THROW IT THAT FAR AND THAT ACCURATELY. IT'S NOT THAT EASY! GREAT CONTENT!
THATS AWESOME!... WHY ARE WE YELLING?!
Dude those rims are killing me haha
came with the car, I bought it use. I'm not really a car guy
I know the 5.56 will make hits out to 1k plus but I just do not have faith in the round carrying the energy I’d be comfortable with past 500 max. But I understand the philosophy behind what your doing. Can’t always have a designated marksman with a .306/6.5/.300 WM
Apples to oranges, but I hit 450-500 yard targets pretty easily with a krebs 103ks ak, 13 inch barrel, PA 1-6 on a dog leg and 762x39 steel case wolf.
Yeah
How was that large center chevron on the PA scope at that distance? Had to cover the entire target up didn’t it? And no wind holds off of the chevron since you were dialing.
I dial off of it. And use the finer part of the reticle
Less go, ass facts, wwoooooo yeeeeeeaaaahhh
My friends don’t call me Carlos Hathkyle for nuthin’. I can take the hat off a sprinting Elite at 2000 meters!
Comfy
Send it !
7:30 cool location, I'm jealous
Recurrent theme: You don't wear eyewear. This time you get sh*t in your eyes (like at 9:30)😁. But yeah, glasses makes it hard to get a consistent hold for me as well.
My veteran buddy always try to talk shit. "556 can't reach out past 500 yards" this is why I have a 3x12 on one of my ars.
Epic vid
Nova can easily reach out to 1k plus. Bump for that AL go rhythm
What rds mount do you have on the scope?
Cool
Tula magic ✨. Now try and do it twice 😃
where do you live? looks awesome
Where do i need to move to get shooting spots like this???
My range only goes to 200 yards. Shooting far is tough east of the Mississippi
Any thoughts on getting an aero m5 like your buddy in the video?
yeah probably will try some 308 stuff soon
@@BrassFacts I would go 308 over 6.5, yes 6.5 performs better once you’re past 500 but you can always find 308 ammo. Would you run a straight up sass 20in, battle rifle 16in, or would you try to split the difference with an 18? A 12.5 would be cool for an urban battle rifle since you would still have the juice to go through brick and cinder block but a little shorter and really not that different from a 16in 5.56 once you put a can on the 12.5 308
@@ExplorinInTheWoods I honestly haven't thought thata much about it yet.
Most like a 18 or 20"
But I also want to try a 16" and come at from two angles
"Battle rifle" vs "SASS"
9:40 could you lay down an old car floor mat under the muzzle to prevent dust in the face?
yeah, probably
Any experience with Vortex Viper scopes?
hop has a lot of experience with them, check out his videos
Furthest I have is 200 😢
If I travel 2.5hrs into WV there's a 1k meter range.
i missed the twist rate of the barrel, 1:7? or 1:8?
1-8
@@BrassFacts thanks! I have a 20" Criterion 1:8, and count my blessings, I have access to a 1,500yd range. and some 77gr IMI.
I’m just grumpy that here in MA suppressors are a no no…
How long your barrel
Been waiting!!!!!!!! More spr videos they my gun porn of choice
Are you allergic to 308 or something?
No? I just don't own one. I'd like to eventually. But money is tight
@@BrassFacts I feel that, good 308s be not cheap
why spr 556 over a shorter barrel ar10?
because I happened to have a 556 gun configured for this.
@@BrassFacts what’s your take on 308/6.5C ar10’s, are they to heavy, do you plan on reviewing the concept?
@@dznutz50123 Im going to give a 308 SASS/BR type platform a look.
not sure im sold on 6.5 in a semi auto platform.
@@BrassFacts I'm in the middle of an Aero M5, 308 AR build...but I don't suggest any AR10 for a precision gun. The recoil is ridiculous. You know how you can easily see your shots when shooting 77's from a heavy AR with a short dwell time?
It's the opposite with a 308. Lol!
But those heavy 308 bullets do put up more dust to help show you where your shot went.
I just finished an 18" 6ARC that weighs about 10.5 lbs. Even that pushes you around more than I expected launching 112gn bullets. 105's and maybe an adjustable gas block might help there.
But really, the precision world is best enjoyed with bolt guns. The AR bolt carrier mass is one thing, but the lock time difference is key.
Gun Jesus has younger brother amd he shoots an AR-10
He looks like a cross between Gun Jesus and Flannel Daddy.
It's weirding me out.
on top of a jeep. :)
80 cents around? Where at?
So, why 20 round pmags?
shooting into the prone with 30 rounders sucks
easier on prone + looks badass
Love this series, I continue to hate the "do everything" rifle concept.
It doesnt exist, and chasing it just leaves you with a bunch of compromises making a machine that's good at nothing mediocre at everything a la the Bradley.
Each tool has a specific use case, if you have another use case get another tool. Don't open letters with an angle grinder and don't take the same rifle you use to clear rooms out to 1000yds
The right way to approach this situation IMHO be an LPVO on a 16 inch rifle, and if the situation calls for more than that.... someone is running to the truck for the 6.5 Creedmoor SPR topped with a 5-25x
IMO, if you expect to deal with those types of ranges, I'd go with a 20", and just practice my pistol work for room clearing.
The idea is that you might only have the option of 1 rifle for en extended period (have to hike in or smth) hence the necessity of compromise to maintain a passable fighting rifle at all times. If you always assume you can run to a truck to grab another gun, everyone would have a full arsenal at all times. If that's your only plan, good luck
@@Jacob-zo5fv yeah ok you can easily throw a dedicated DMR into a soft case and strap that bitch to the side of your ruck. If you are for some reason dead set on a dismounted patrol (?)
And if that additional weight makes that much of an issue you should probably be rucking more and maybe not be fat
@@Jacob-zo5fv Except that's never been the argument. The closest thing I would guess to that argument that is being made is your rifle needs to fit the mission. If you are expecting to get into long range fights, you need to be able to perform in long range fights. If you are using an SPR where you have a 30% hit rate at 1k yards, and get into a sniper fight with a dude running 28 Nosler, you're screwed, even if you are within 1k yards or so.
Personally, if you are trying to focus on 200+ yard engagements, I think you should bump it up to a 20" for the extra velocity, and use a handgun or PDW for interior usage. You already have the handgun by default, so you already aren't restricted to just the rifle, so it needs to be part of the equation as well.
Not to mention, this does not include squad composition. If you are in a multi-person team, it is valuable for having certain people take dedicated roles, hence DMRs and the like. That way your doorkickers can do their thing with 14.5s and 12ga buck, meanwhile your DM is doing his thing taking long-range shots off into elsewhere.
Do SPRs have value? Yes. Your equipment should not be limited to the statistically likely side of engagement. But at the same time, you cannot have a rifle that does everything, and trying to make a gun that can room clear and hit half-mile shots at the same time is going to require so much compromise that it undermines it's ability to do either.
Yeah you need a dpms ar10 for this range the effective range of 556 is really petering out at 600 yards haha at 1000 yards that 556 isn’t even going to move the plate be very hard to see a hit without a good spotting scope haha
Just proves you don’t need cool guy gear and the price that goes with it to be good with a rifle.
In order to be Chris Kyle Shit, you have to do it from on top of The Superdome.
Why would you not bring a blanket to lay on 😂 3:36
Aye aye aye. I really want to get out to beyond 500 yards. But everywhere around me is membership only super rich. 250 a month. And long ramge is 1 time a month.
The 500 yards i have access to is onle once a month too. But its only 100 bucks.
Everything else here in south florida is all public land where sooting is banned. Evem largely for hunting...go figure.
Theres areas where i could go..... but.... Rangers and fwc patrol constantly. And you will get fined or arrested for it. Happens all the time.
@Rdctd Hh it is. Its just not free roam anarchy