Breaking down one decade-plus-old video feels like limiting the impact of this critique. A broader look at the era's culture of criticism, or reconnecting the context with how Arin engages in criticism today, would have made this stronger. This felt a bit incomplete, which is a rarity for this channel. Love what you do, Noodle, looking forward to the next one!
Moreover the whole thing was spurred on from a joke about people who immediately shoot an argument before watching the video. Which was common. Which is *still* common.
To be honest it being the norm in that era doesn't make it any less of a problem nor consequential of the reasons discussed in this video. I lived through that era, but immediately connected with the point of this video despite of that because of the very first things he showed, being the homunculus joke, the approach Arin took, etc. Take in mind the title of this video: it's more of a tutorial than an overview. It isn't focusing on the era of gaming, because if Arin had released that video 2 years ago it still would be a solid example for this topic.
As I always say, you have to ask yourself “Do you want to be right, or do you want to have a conversation?” Because those are two very different goals.
@@OmegaMultiplayer i agree i often come wanting a convo but get hit witha. Solid wall of wanting to be right then it ends up escalating and or i try to drop the subject
I kinda expected this video to be more about video games internet debate, and not a 30 min rant over a 10 years old youtube video. Still enjoyed the video I’m just a bit confused.
Yeah was expecting more than just 1 video used as an example. I feel like noodle is also flawed as a reviewer in their portrayal of topics, even though i love their content
I think a lot of people forget that channels like AVGN were not actually reviewers, the Angry Video Game Nerd was a character for a comedy short. It's kind of crazy how HE became a new blueprint for two decades
I remember people took those kinds of videos far more seriously than any sane person should. Many people would form their opinions solely on the AVGN's videos. I think now people are a little more capable of forming their own opinions these days.... right?
I feel like Arin portrays his argument like that because it was a popular way of critiquing things at the time. Channels like Nostalgia Critic, Angry Joe, RedLetterMedia (specifically the Plinkett videos), and I Hate Everything were popping off at the time doing similar types of rant/angry videos. There was an understanding that the reviewer was being over the top for the entertainment of the video, not necessarily trying to avoid logical fallacies or alienating the audience
@@mastracu66207 Nope. The video was horribly made ESPECIALLY taking into account the context it was made. One of the things that people tend to forget about the "angry nerd ranting on the internet" style of critique is that the reviewer makes fun of themselves almost as much, if not more than of the thing they are critiquing. Not to mention that usually they didn't make fun of the people who did like the piece in question, and even acknowledge its strong points. But Arin didn't do any of that. His yells may be over the top, but the things he's yelling about are 100% straight.
@@XanderVJ "Not to mention that usually they didn't make fun of the people who did like the piece in question" Neither did Arin. He made fun of the pre-emptive "didn't watch, still responded" style of argument, which I feel like people have gotten way better about not doing but I definitely saw plenty of at the time.
@mastracu66207 I think compared to the other videos Arin made, the Zelda one really seem like it was him just having his personal gripes than it being a flaw of the game. Not to say there aren't some good points in it but I guess it didn't really seem as structured as the others and more off the cuff feelings.
@@mastracu66207I mean??? Even noodle says it’s mostly funny and appeals to him, the video never offended him specifically because he already said he’s not the biggest OoT fan either. This was more about unpacking why it failed to resonate with so many people despite being so entertaining. He’s sings the videos praises multiple times. Arin was getting hate at the time for his critiques here back then, it was huge and it still echoes today. The reason why dudes like me and noodle (and a lot of you) likely didn’t care was a mix between not being enough of a fan or having thick enough skin to not be bothered if someone jabbed at media you liked, especially in an entertaining and funny way Which is great! But Arin himself made the video specifically NOT to reach people like us. He was making it for the people he WOULD be pissed at the notion that OoT may not be good. And noodle was judging it on how well it appeals to THEM and where that went wrong If you meant stuff like the slurs (which I doubt), uhhhh no? it was wrong then and it’s wrong now
I think a big part of this video is just inspired by generational differences in expectations in internet etiquette. Because I’m almost exactly Arin’s age, I fucking love OOT with my entire soul, I watched his OOT vid when it first came out, and none of it registered with me as any more than the standard background reading of Internet Snark and condescension. That’s just how things were. Arin speaks like he’s writing an early 00s forum post, where a big unwritten rule is: even starting a new topic, you have to act like the conversation has been going on without you before you jump in, and so heading off would-be detractors and acknowledging-through-omission commonly held assumptions like how widely beloved and generally groundbreaking the game is, as not to be repetitive and thus boring, is generally considered good form. The internet used to be a lot more intimate and interconnected, so you had to take these kinds of actions and assumptions to contribute to the conversation, and that’s the cadence Arin is speaking in. He’s not (or was not) used to how it is today, where every post/video/whatever is made in a discreet space that might potentially be anyone’s first experience on the internet ever, algorithm willing, and has to build context as it goes to account for that.
That is such a great thing to think about when considering the context of certain videos being made within a certain time. I think the time in which people make and upload videos should ALWAYS be considered when giving criticism.
I think a lot of it was just that the done thing was a lot more confrontational. Look at Nostalgia Critic, AVGN, etc. They're loud, angry, and crass. They purposely antagonize the viewer, and the viewer knew not to take it too personally. I agree, a lot of this is just a cultural disconnect. There is an argument that the angry review shouldn't be the template for actual criticism, but I don't think that that's something that the collective Internet would really realize for at least a couple more years.
Its just zoom zooms are their special snowflake syndrome where their feelings need to be placated before you present your arguement or else they get mad and wont listen to you hmmph!
@@TheShitSmith I think a lot of those early game review channels were entertainment at the forefront, and actual criticism was more experiential with when they played the game. Arin spoke with passion and I guarantee still recognises the inherent importance of ocarina of time. It's a cultural milestone for videogames as an artform, and even with those sprinkled bits against his audience I feel they're more tounge in cheek.
So, I think this is kind of a miss by noodle imo. First, and what bothered me the most, was saying that Arin completely isolated the intended audience with the strawman in the beginning (which I will agree, it totally was.). That wasn't OoT fans, that was specifically those who defend it without choosing to take a deeper look, the type who would just write out a massive comment before watching the video. It was meant to poke fun at best, or antagonize at worst, the type of fan who is unable or unwilling to look deeper at a piece of media they loved. Second, the lack of context. Arin's video game out 10 years ago. Internet arguments, and the zelda fandom in general, were VERY different 10 years ago. This is most apparent with the comparison to the Red Dead 2 review. Comparing a review from 10 years ago to a review from 5 years ago feels disigenuous. Sequilitis came out when youtube was still kinda the wild west, where you said what you wanted, how you wanted. NakeyJakey's video came out when youtube was getting more stable, when reviewers knew that unabashed opinions were very much not a good idea. And as for the Zelda fandom, the video came out when OoT was the golden child of the gaming world. Critiquing it was not something you could do lightly, any admittance of, "Well, these aspects were good, lets talk about them." was taken as a reason to ignore and of the bad things, and you were seen as a Hypocrite. Third, this is a smaller complaint but I definitely think it's worth bringing up. The lack of mention at how this video is a decade old, and the internet was very different back then. You stated in the beginning that he is controversial, but then accidentally add onto that controversial nature by bringing up things like Slurs without even a sidenote of that the video is 10 years old. You cannot claim to not want to discuss him as a person and then ad to the fire that makes him controversial. Fourth, failure to bring up that even he has stated that he regrets making the video. An extension of the third point in a way, you speak as though the Arin Hanson that made Sequelitis - ZELDA: A Link to the Past vs. Ocarina of Time in 2014 is the same Arin Hanson on Game Grumps in 2024. You brought up that your Extrapolation video and how you regret aspects of it, and think it could've been done better. Arin has said the exact same thing, and it would've been nice if you had brought that up at all, it may have even added to your point a lot. "Even Arin Hanson HIMSELF said that this video could have been made better." Overall, I think this video just misses too much context and adds to the fire of Arin Hanson hate that has spread around the internet ever since that video came out. It comes off as trying to look at the video itself, but struggles to seperate that video from Arin himself, and then fails to ever mention that it's struggling to do so.
This perfectly encapsulates my issues with this video - Noodle does the very thing he decries here. Arin has grown, and to essentially shovel up ten-year content and present it as his current thoughts is disingenuous at best. If you want a conversation about talking fairly, you actually need to talk fairly.
Excellent comment. Those are also the thoughts I was having while watching the video - the lack of context, the characterization of those commenting before watching, talking about Arin the person anyway, and especially the fact that the video was made 10 years ago by a very different person than Arin is today - and you put them well. The premise of critiquing and analyzing a video made 10 years ago is… odd to me? Even though it was largely well-done, aside from these criticisms, I'm not sure how much this positively added to a conversation that needed to be had.
@@klausbaudelaire5754 its a new take on a strawman argument just to shill for the ROG ad placement. almost all this guy's videos now feature ads. Nobody brings up the CJ video where someone pointed this out a while ago. its not the first time he's done this, this is just his laziest attempt is all.
I feel like Noodle, through this video, has fully explored the feeling of "You might have some really good points, but you're pissing me off." more than any other youtuber I've seen.
If someone has good points, they have good points. Stop making your emotions someone else's problem.. When did having your hand held and your tummy rubbed become a requirement for taking on new information? I hate this soft new world.
@@WardenAzdron When did it become acceptable to be rude and insulting for no reason when you could have a calm, reasonable discussion without slapping someone in the face? The concept of courtesy is not new
@@WardenAzdron News flash. No one is more receptive to information after getting insulted. A great way to get people to ignore your points is to make them mad first.
@@WardenAzdron "stop making your emotions someone else's problem" yeah, well, stop making your whiny feelings about "this world" everyone else's problem
FUN FACT i only learned recently: Sun Tzu did in fact say "If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight". That line is actually in the Art of War. Solider TF2 wasn't lying.
Buddy, it's not that deep and noone ever felt Egoraptor was that important. Go outside. Like you want proof dude was always a major cunt, watch The Tester.
@@aa-tx7th you missed the whole point of the video. he’s using it as a way to understand what not to do in an argument-even if it’s an old example, the points he brings up are very good, and he even critiques himself at the end. old vids just aren’t that good sometimes.
_"The strength of a critic lies in the consistency of their voice."_ Despite coming from Dunkey of all people, this quote still lives in my mind, and for more than just criticism.
the biggest problem with the OoT Sequelitis is that it came out when I was an impressionable teenager who got all of his opinions from the internet, and it made me think the game I loved was actually bad
I was a teen and I just thought arin was an idiot who didn’t know how to read. It was apparent in his metal gear awesome videos lol. “WTF NO ONE TOLD ME THERE WOULD BE BOMBS THERE”
17:09 i remember from one game grumps episode Arin said that’s one of the things he’d go back and change about the video, because you can just look left and right to see it
I feel like if I were to summarize this video into one sentence it would be : "You’re not wrong, you’re just an asshole." -The dude -Wayne Gretzky -Michael Scott -Sun Tzu
being a loud @sshole is likely the ONLY way youll be heard. especially now with the internet being so crowded with users, ruzzian/chinese bot farms/trolls, and bots. also the guy in this vid is literally the biggest loudest @sshole in the room and he aint even right 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 he's OBJECTIVELY wrong and hes also a complete unaware hypocrite while doing it too
I would summarize it as, “This very biased, paper-skinned guy got mad about a ten year old video about a flawed game, clearly because it struck a nerve that still bothers him, and took a decade to say that the video ‘failed’…even though it clearly started the discourse it was trying to spark, lol.” Also, fuck OoT puzzles. Great game overall, but shooting those little stone eyes WAS stupid.
The argument assumes the point of the review is to win the Ocarina of Time lovers over instead of communicating Arin's experiences in hopes it resonates with someone. Tapping into other people's experiences in a game might make them less likely to rage, but it isn't the responsibility of the reviewer. Reviewers communicate their experiences, their perspective and do not need to assume the point of view of the greater audience to make their opinion valuable, especially in the context of such a widely beloved game. Your argument makes sense only if you view critique as a service to the audience rather than a contribution to the zeitgeist.
@@bounceysteve We celebrate cause Noodle finally saw the irony in making a video about alienating viewers but not pointing out his own colossal fuckup during the whole BG3 controversy?
Words cannot describe how much I LOVE these old TV-style intermissions. The very specific kind of humor in them tickle a few nondescript bones in my body which may or may not involve a rib, a finger and my whole hip
I literally watched almost the entire Ally-x commercial thinking "wow he really put a lot of effort into making this fake gaming device for this bit, that's hilarious" before I realized it was a real sponsor.
I know that Egoraptors video was horribly worded for a regular online debate, I loved his passion. And I loved his conviction in the video. You don't see it anymore.
Agreed. There is a strange dichotomy between "let's try to have a conversation and not alienate anybody" and "Here's the truth and if you think otherwise here's why you're wrong!" Both things are good. One is healthy and one is fun.... I think I just re-discovered why our nation is so divided.
Love you Noodle, but the title for this video is so misleading. Zooming in on one specific video and making it out to be the pinnacle and cause of toxic internet debate is obscuring a lot of context
I'd get much more offended when Arin would do a let's play of a game I loved, suck at it, blame it on the game, and be like "See! Look how dog shit this game is!" I realize now that he was probably just playing it up to be funny.
Yeah, he's stated many times that the Grump personality is just that, a personality. Game Grumps as a whole, he said, was a good way for him to get a lot of his anger out that he bottles up in his day to day life. He's not concerned about being right, he's concerned about being mad and funny. Some people think it's funny, some don't, but it is a character at the end of the day.
This is really encapsulated perfectly in the ocarina of time playthrough, where Dan openly mocks Arin sucking at the game. Especially in the episode where Dan says “even I’m going to leave an angry comment on this video” and just commented “Arin sucks at video games” on the NSP account
You see, that's EXACTLY what he does with every single Sonic game he plays He chooses the worst version available, plays like a toddler, and convinces everyone that its the game's fault
don't care if he was playing it up, fuck that shit, either actually play the game or don't and start a podcast or whatever. I fuckin hated watching game grumps cuz of that shit. why are you even playing a video game when that isn't even the focus 90% of the time, do literally anything else please!
To me the troll guy at the beginning of the video is not necessarily an OoT fan but is more primarily a person closed off to any outside view. Those who act on instinct towards any perceived threat against the thing they hold dear. I think Arin just wants to call people to have an open mind and hear him out before writing a counter. If one encounters someone who holds preemptive hostility towards oneself, as is commonplace amidst the anonymity wasteland of the internet, I'd say it's only fair and natural to distance oneself from that person. Avoiding being represented in a video as a troll freak is as easy as choosing to not reply preemptively.
I disagree, if the video was structured to be more friendly then i would understand, but the video being so mean spitired makes it really hard to find the "decent middleground" that he begs you to understand, and if you disagree heavily then that would make you the caricature at the start.
@@aolson1111 i dont really see how being purposefully inflamatory in a series thats expected to be a more nuanced views on games, turning it into a nearly rant, makes for fair discussion. If he wanted to create never ending discourse, a move that even egoraptor himself admits wasnt great, then he did a good job
When he makes the homunculus at the beginning, I think that was aimed at people who wanted to reject the video without watching not everyone who disagrees or his audience in general. That seemed pretty clear immediately to me, and a clear retort to that kind of closed-mindedness Arin focused on how Oot was different than a open exploration with no linearity and just implies that everyone wants that type of zelda game. But there are plenty of people who enjoy the linear story telling, myself included. I also think that his critique was focused on a modern perspective to point out that it's not a perfect game through all forms of measurement. I think he failed to acknowledge that perspective, that the times have changed since Oot's release, and he failed to acknowledge that some people prefer different forms of story telling and pacing. For these reasons, it's not a good review like Noodle says. However, someone has to point out where the kid who is playing Oot for the first time in the modern era is going to be disappointed. Otherwise they will just hear all the great things about the perfect game that doesn't meet every modern expectation. In that avenue I think Arin's video is valuable. I don't think Arin's video is a great review video with a balanced perspective, but it does provide a genuine contrarian opinion that will resonate with plenty of people who grew up in a different era of video games.
Totally, I've watched his content on Game Grumps before I watched that review & I think that gave me some more perspective on where he was coming from, basically, I know the kind of games & game design he likes & can pretty accurately form an expectation of a game based off his reactions. Also it helps that both of us have adhd & thus have similar levels of patience with things haha (albeit my attention span isn't quite as bad as his.)
How anyone looks at the homunculus as "every Zelda fan" is beyond me (unless it's basically a self-report), and I'd never even seen or heard of the original video before now. Arin even says it in the clips shown in this video. Actually insane.
@@onionrings5362as a long-time noodle fan, yea, that's been the tone of his videos recently. It's been much more noticeable since :Why games are getting bigger." Edit: to make matters worse, IDK if those are mistakes or actual intentions, because both of these videos do cut to something else to steer the narrative.
Something I think that's kinda ignored in this is how OoT was essentially this "flawless game" during the time period, and the amount of slander that was thrown to people who even dared to say anything even slightly negative to OoT. He was arguing against a majority of people who were ready to alienate anybody who even acknowledged their subjective differences. Trust me, as someone who's been a part of the Zelda fandom for as long as I've had internet, I've seen the fanbase at their worst. They were incredibly vicious and would die on any hill, regardless of how delicately you would phrase your arguments. Arin made the guy at the beginning not to represent anybody who liked Ocarina of Time, but instead, to parody the types of people who would ignore rational discussion and choose to bully any opposition to an opinion founded entirely on nostalgia (aka, Keyboard warriors). I love Ocarina of Time, and I viewed his points as a criticism of his own exprience with the game, and his "slander" towards the aggressive vocal majority who were more than likely going to be writing up multiple essay-long and hate-filled comments. Even I was sick of the fanbase's blatant OoT favoritism, and it wasn't because I hated OoT, but because people were just so aggressive and hostile for no reason. The "I'm gonna get CRUCIFIED" line demonstrates this mentality going into the scripting process perfectly. Even still though, Arin admits that he wishes he could rewrite the video to not isolate the people he unintentionally targeted. He regrets the impact he left. Personally? I still stand by the video, even if I disagree with a lot of his opinions. His video singlehandedly changed the Zelda fanbase and allowed for a lot of people who were too scared to share an opinion, to actually have the courage to have a voice. Now there's a lot more diversity in the fandom, a lot of people who sent actual death threats to Ninendo due to games like Wind Waker having a different art style would mellow out, and there has been much more open discussion about Zelda's game quality as a whole. Without Arin's video, we'd probably never have gotten BotW. Games like Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword were created because people just wanted more Ocarina of Time. But the fanbase just criticized those games as well. Without the audience like Arin speaking against the formula, Zelda probably would have stagnated into obscurity. But instead we got a revolution in game design, and even though I still like the OoT formula more than BotW/TotK's, I'm glad Arin finally got the games that would speak to him. And that Zelda gets to live on because of his influence
Good comment. I saw the guy at the beginning similar to the anti-vaxxers in hydrogenbomberman's vaccine video. A group of people that are not going to have their mind changed by the video. Not fans of OoT, that just like the game a lot. In Arin's case these hypothetical (but probably real) people already had their comments written before they watched the video. I do agree with Noodle that the ending bit, about how Arin didn't want to make anyone angry and how writing the comment after watching the video is fine, should have been at the beginning of the video.
agree with everything aside from Arin being the reason we have BotW (i know you don't mean it literally). At the time, even the fanbase was getting sick of the basic formula, hating Skyward Sword was not an unpopular opinion, and like Arin says in the video, LBW was nintendo opening up the fanbase to a shift in fomula and, eventually, another shift in soul. Nintendo had been slow cooking the idea of BotW for an amazingly large time to get it just right cause they knew that if they messed it up it could've been the biggest blemish on the series so far, if not the outright death.
IDK if I'm just stupid, but I feel like I just walked in on Noodle mid rant and missed the first 10% of context that would help me get why he is talking about this.
I thought that Noodle was going to draw a line between this video as a somewhat mild example to what video game discussions have become, which is to say much worse. Instead he just stayed really mad at this one video, judging it as immature, and making solid but abstract points about how to empathize and persuade.
@@Cz4rBDV5e8w Yeah, that’s what I was really hoping for. I almost wonder if he just doesn’t want to get harassed for talking about current RUclipsrs cause of what happened with the baldurs gate video
I think the caricature of the fanboy doesn't hinder the video as much - because even though it's absurd and nobody would want to be portrayed as such, that's the point. That's what people who plug their ears and start typing stuff in the comments do. So Arin throws them out and says "Now that THAT guy's gone, let's critique what some people call the pinnacle of gaming (Insert spinning death puck OOPS!) ". Even brings him back in the credits and says "Now that you've watched the video, go ahead and say what you feel - you've listened to my piece." I will now make a two hour response video titled "Noodle, Egoraptor, and the Death of Media Literacy: an Analysis on Ludonarrative Dissonance". Edit: I think it should also be noted that the series is called "Sequelitis", and the notion that OoT's noteworthyness made a template that the franchise would follow (along with frustration towards that) was the basis for Arin's criticisms and vitriol towards the game. I think the fact that it took Nintendo almost two decades to shake up the formula that OoT established with BotW is a testament to why somebody like Arin would vent their frustrations about Zelda's (at the time) present day game design. Again, I think if you believe the commenter is a stand-in for an average fan of the game - you are missing the point of that joke.
I'm sorry, but it's still not very good at getting the point across. Arin spends a lot of the video bitching about stuff he doesn't like, which he's allowed to not like and it's valid and all, but he acts like everyone else in the world is equally as impatient when it comes to following a story along. A lot of his problems are very unique to his playing style, and he never acknowledges this or how much the series has indeed grown from OoT's problems.
@@thanatoast yea and no one argues that. his points are the problems WITH OoT not what it gave the games after. Also the fanboy skit was for people blindly without listening already saying "nuh huh". if you feel attacked by that, maybe you are part of it? cause i never felt like he ment me (a person who played it and loved) cause i am not like the person aron throws out the window.
I think some people forget that newgrounds exists and how wildly different the platform was from youtube back then, newgrounds is where a lot of my favorite people got their starts, but most of them arent really acceptable in most social circles these days
While I agree with your point about alienating your audience, I also sympathize with Aaron. That video came out when everyone was sucking off Ocarina, and I remember finding the video cathartic. Maybe the video was more meant for people like me who didn't like the game, but couldn't articulate why
I KINDA agree with the central thesis of the video which is "don't be overly inflammatory to a disagreeing side if you want them to be receptive to your position..." but using the OOT Sequelitus video as an example is just weird lol. Like, at worst the jokes in that video are child's play compared to a lot of the pure vitriol coming out of gaming discussions nowadays. The joke in that video in particular where Ego throws an OOT fanboy out of a window is so over the top that I can see it either loosening people up out of the sheer ridiculousness of it, or angering the type of fanboy that never would have been receptive to the video in the first place. If you've watched any of his previous Sequelitus videos, you'd know coming into the OOT video that he has a track record of doing stuff like this. It's why the spiel you go on at 20:46 is so fucking weird lol. Anybody with even a smidgeon of familiarity with Egoraptor knows he's not doing that kinda stuff out of malice. Then you said that OOT is one of the most beloved games of all time and critiquing it is an upward battle, and then you show the like/dislike ratio being far more on the favorable end which sorta shows that his approach loosened up a lot of people to hear him out lol. And again, I think there is a HUGE problem in gaming discourse with this type of shit. But using that OOT video just ain't it. Hell, I'd even argue that people like Egoraptor understood something back then that a lot of people now don't think about often: "If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you."
Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head here, I feel a similar way. It’s good, when making a review, to acknowledge that your opinion isn’t fact! But I can’t help but feel it’s a bit odd to use an example of someone who looks like they’re playing an eccentric character.
I feel like he’s avoiding talking about people in the modern sphere of gaming “discourse” because of how much he got harassed/brigaded by that one dude for his baldurs gate video. And that was without even attacking that guy specifically.
Idk your point just boils down to "he was too mean when he talked even if his points were valid" Like sure man super deep analysis. It's entertainment sometimes being rude is entertaining, simple as
Except Arin himself wasn't framing it as just entertaining. He was the one acting trying to create a honest conversation and convince people. But he did it terribly, to the point that people like you in these comments didn't even get that lmao
@@Cruxin Lol no rewatch egoraptors video and read his title of his series. He is comparing what the previous series have done and how its changed. Don't believe that he was trying to convince die hard fans of OOT to now hate the game.
Don't you love watching a +30 minute video about another +30 minute videogame critique from ten years ago, in which someone was slightly rude to a videogame's ardent fanbase for comedic effect, which may have undermined their arguments to that part of their audience? It's just mindblowing stuff isn't it?
I love game grumps, I have for years, but I love it as a podcast not a gaming channel. Watching Arin fumble through a video game is frustrating at best but the chemistry of him and Dan, especially when they have a guest, is golden to me
Yeah that’s why my fave series they’ve done is the Katamari reroll. It’s literally just Arin and Dan talking about anything on their minds and it’s awesome.
I'll start by saying this is in my opinion, though for future notice to anyone reading a RUclips comment, you should generally view anything someone is saying in a RUclips comment as an opinion since it's likely about something subjective. This video is so weird because you constantly display the ability to understand that Arin is clearly just making a very opinionated video but refuse to accept the capacity that he might know that. I don't think he thought when making the video he was some game design guidebook; I think he just has strong opinions and a capacity to articulate them well, and ever since the Megaman sequelitis videos non-stop appraisal people have interpreted every sequelitis videos like they were education tools more than for entertainment opinion pieces. The tone is supposed to feel conversational, and the reason the video keeps you entertained is because he's not constantly backstepping, as he assumes you're starting off on normal human ground and not assuming the worst. He outright makes a character of someone assuming the worst at the start of the video knowing how people can get about a game that's such a corner stone of history. I don't think he was "wojacking" the Ocararina of time fans. I think the point was just to say, "Don't jump the gun on what I'm about to say." Not every video is designed to appeal to the largest group of people possible, nor is every video meant to make every person who watches it happy. A part of having a strong opinion is that the more you isolate your ground, the more you will attract people to be angry at you. But your opinion simultaneously gains more value the less it bends in order to be more appealing. While this isn't always true, it certainly is for something as mundane as video game analysis. Your video comes off as really self righteous and borderline arrogant at times. For example you do this bit where you essentially say "Which opinion are you more likely to listen to" to "guide" Arin through essay writing 101. Not only does it come off as strangely condescending but simultaneously you really overshoot your "wojacking" of him. *You* instead of letting the video which has plenty of moments of ranting that could of supported your point instead make a version of "what he's doing" that is 10 times more annoying on purpose to support your argument. But it doesn't support your argument because you aren't speaking broadly; you're speaking about a specific person's videos. Broadifying the language he uses develops a significantly more identifiable strawman that makes your side of the argument feel weaker. Also the use of an hbomber guy video as an example for not being inflammatory or at the very least knowing the audience your speaking to is bizarre because you chose the video where he talks about vaccines. The reason he doesn't have to respect the potential opinion of anti-vaxxers is because vaccines are medicine. They are guarded by facts; an opinion about a game from ten years ago isn't. Games are a subjective medium privy to subjective opinions. It should practically be innate to understand any opinion piece about a game or movie or TV show or any form of art is subjective. Our opinions on art can only be defined by our experiences with the art. For example, I loved Undertale, but many of my friends don't. The reasoning why is they were so exposed to the fandom or peoples hype about the game or the extreme praise it was given before they actually played it. Is their opinion less valid because their experience with the form of media isn't pure enough? Who cares, their just my friends chatting. In the same connotation I believe that Arin's video is not trying to be a huge video essay where you're supposed to "come to his side". You even point out in Arins video random meandering rants about stuff like the blue bayou restaurant. Those rants fit into a friendly conversational flow. Their attempt to add to the art is to illustrate that what you are watching is not a Khan Academy video on game design, but a person "calling it as they see it" so to speak. Or putting something people have found hard to articulate into words. By no means do I think the video is perfect; I'm not here to argue on the basis that it's even good. I just think this video is incredibly poor faith, and I don't like when videos in such poor faith have no one expressing anything but agreement with the person they already liked. I don't dislike you personally or your channel, and I don't love Arin Hanson. I say this preemptively because I don't want to be boxed into some catagory. I just really thought this was a bad video. That's all it is. If anyone reads this in the aether and has something to say to modify maybe my understanding of this video I'm fine to read it; I'm not bothered by being challenged on this thought. I just felt like for a video expressing an opinion on a video it would be fair to express an opinion on a video.
I wouldnt listen to the example better argument because I hate when people are disingenuous to their opinion on an opinion piece. While he was talking all I could think was "shut the fuck up and get to the point, stop sucking its dick". Hbomberguy is also a funny comparison considering his fallout 3 video is an hour long version of the sequelitis OoT video
I agree with everything you said, down to the very last paragraph. I like Noodle, but this kinda felt like a bad faith video and I’m not sure I see the end goal.
@@MrDiana1706 the comments do have a small minority of people from that era that watched it then, and some did enjoy the video. Mind you, it IS a minority, but I did think it was a bit weird to go off on such a tangent about such an old video. Yes, there was lots to improve, but who knows about the guy now? If he said this stuff when the video came out, fair game, but to be so long after the fact? You can take any video from the start of peoples careers and belittle them...
@@derp3044 He isn't belitteling the video really, it's just a good example for the topic. The video never turned about controversy, it followed its title accordingly
I feel like Arin's bit about the "homunculus" at the beginning isn't as bad as you're making it out to be. I don't think it was a jab at all OoT fans, but a plea to the sub-set of blindly loyal fans that would criticize him before even hearing him out. It feels like the only people that would be offended by that are those who were already feeling defensive that someone was criticizing their "favorite" game. (other than that I think you had a lot of great points!)
I was gonna comment this! The "strawman" isn't really a strawman, it's pointing to the type of viewer who doesn't watch the video before commenting The ending portion for the homunculus is perfect!
yeah this id!ot wants to lecture us on "discourse" and "nuance" and is not only a RAGING hypocrite but also doesnt even have the balls to respond to ANY legit criticism of himself either. 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄 this guy's a total @sshole. but unlike most @ssholes he thinks he's above other @ssholes and that he has the right to wag his finger at the rest of us.
While I agree that the homunculus bit probably wasn’t *as* hurtful as the video made it seem, I also think that a large percentage of viewers did lean toward the “already feeling defensive” camp. I think that was more of the point Noodle was trying to make- since a large portion of the audience is going to get at least a little defensive, starting out by spitting on a hyperbolized version of them probably didn’t do Arin many favors. (I respect your opinion and also liked the video a lot)
As someone who 1) likes OoT, 2) likes the Sequelitis vid, and 3) has been a longtime viewer since your mentioned FPS vid and the Cyberpunk crunch vid, I think the argument you make in this video is the most ironic thing you could've made in response to a 10-year old video. Like you said at 30:44 "If you want to have a conversation with other human beings, you HAVE to think about how you come across in that current conversation." It's not that you can't critique old media, it's that you manage to decry the video for being an 10:35 "unhinged venomous rant" while also talking in hyperbolic ways like 24:35 "THIS DRIVES ME FUCKING INSANE," and blowing up some negative comments to be "the bomb that KILLED Sequelitis," when also admitting that the video was mostly well received and that you agree with almost all the points Arin makes (and also as if Arin didn't just get tired making animations which is really why he stopped making Sequelitis). For a video title that attempts to deemphasize the "(and how not to)..." part, you spend an exorbitant amount of time being angry at a video you don't like, with your example sections being minimal, including people who just structure their videos differently than Sequelitis did, not necessarily "better." The video really reads as someone who identifies with the strawman joke character and has been salty about it for a decade, rather than a measured response to a piece of media you think hasn't aged well, which once again ironically pitches you up as the 'unhinged' guy who has spent a whole decade with a reoccurring nitpick about how someone was 'mean and alienated people with a joke' or 'didn't use enough "I" statements." Also, to laser focus in on the strawman joke since that seems to be a returning point in this video; as a fellow Hbomb fan who literally pointed out how his Vaccines video wasn't made for anti-vaxers who are too ingrained in their beliefs, I'm surprised how the notion that the joke may haps purposely sent away people who WON'T listen to criticism flew right over your head. Like in Hbomb's War on Christmas video where he references the paper about Nigerian email scams, I feel like that bit was supposed to weed out people who would get angered by such a joke as to allow for better discussion about Arin's points. To quote a perhaps mean but salient comment I saw under this video "If you identify with the guy who gets thrown out the window, you are the problem." Also also, this is nitpicky, but I remember a while back Arin specifically responded in a Game Grumps episode to this weird trend of RUclips recommending literally his first video ever where he reviews Gunpey and says the R-slur amidst criticizing the game; Arin was really bothered by this weird algorithm boost of that video because he doesn't use that word anymore and said he's grown as a person. He's even gotten involved in weird internet beefs with former friends because he's spoke out on the use of outdated and harmful vocabulary. Once again, it's one thing to criticize old media that hasn't aged well, but it's another thing to make that a point to discredit the video when the dude has publicly expressed that he no longer condones that behavior. It comes off like a disingenuous low blow for the sake of a joke that amounts to "wow, cringe."
While I think you brought up good points, I don't think that the 'weeding people out' argument invalidates the criticism of Arin's approach. Even if his goal was to weed people out, creating this strawman of the opposition and proceeding to attack it is generally a bad idea. It's a harmful generalization that paints anyone who liked OoT in a negative light. This shuns not just hardcore fans, but also those who might have been on the fence or those watching for entertainment or out of curiosity. The assumption that viewers who felt alienated by the joke simply "weren't open to criticism" is purely speculative and ignores the fact that many fans would have been willing to engage in a reasonable debate. Arin's attitude felt hostile from the start. In addition to that, saying "If you identify with the guy who gets thrown out the window, you are the problem" reinforces this toxic mindset. It implies that if you disagree with Arin or feel unfairly represented by his strawman, you're instantly part of the problem, which shuts down any opportunity for a productive conversation. this attitude encourages exclusion and dismissal undercutting the potential for critique while alienating viewers who might have otherwise been open to a discussion. Dismissing anyone who identifies with the character discourages viewers from engaging critically, creating an atmosphere where disagreement is vilified rather than addressed. (Especially when the character is so widely encompassing of everyone and anyone who liked OoT) Furthermore, while it's true that Arin has publicly distanced himself from the harmful language used in his earlier content, that doesn't absolve the original video from critique. deflecting this criticism by focusing on Arin's personal growth, fails to address how this critique is about the specific tones and arguments that were counterproductive even during the time. Arin's outdated language and argumentative strategies, such as the strawman joke, still hold relevance when analyzing the impact of his video. Calling out these issues isn't a "low blow" it's an observation about how media critique and public discourse have evolved over time and it remains important to see how these elements haven't aged well. Simply acknowledging that Arin has changed doesn't invalidate the critique of his past work, especially when that work continues to be influential.
@@tristanpizza8646 Firstly, thanks for responding! No jokes, this was definitely a specific thing for me to hyperfixate and write a mini essay on, so I appreciate the engagement with each of my points. My issue isn’t with the idea that “you shouldn’t attack or alienate your audience when trying to have a discussion,” nor do I think accounting for Arin’s older, edgier jokes should take away from such an argument. My issue is that, in trying to explain how hyperbolic, angry ranting, and mischaracterization of others can detract from the true effect and reach of a critique, Noodle engages in just that: he fixates on the “overly negative” tone set by the review as if it was different than the other Sequelitis videos, despite the only real difference being the length of the video (and therefore an increase in negative assessments in LoZ) and that immediate depiction of a strawman. Again, the fact that Noodle keeps returning to that strawman as the basis of why the video doesn’t succeed in its goals, to me, says a lot about how that bit particularly annoyed him and has lodged itself in his head as a brain worm. This is doubly true because, again, this Sequelitis video wasn’t extremely different than the others, other than it’s length, which again is padded with more jokes or bits about Arin - the man famous for his “Game Grumps” channel - expressing a hyperbolic frustration at games he didn’t particularly like. Those rants come from a genuine place, for sure, but that’s the character he built up for himself online. That’s also why I mentioned comparing him to other RUclipsrs is missing the point. It’d be like giving Breath of the Wild a 0/10 because 'it’s an open world game and you HATE open world games'; you can like Nakey Jakey or Hbomb MORE as creators, but you can’t really say Arin’s part comedy/part informative, angry video game rant is “bad” if it’s just content you don’t grok with. You can argue that it didn’t age well that’s fine, but calling the angry gamer’s angry game review bad because it’s angry, makes a strawman joke, and doesn't use enough "I" statements is a miss. Additionally, and once again, I agree that mischaracterizing your potential audience, let alone opposition, is a bad habit of media analysis and conjures muddy waters. But the strawman isn’t depicting just “anyone who liked OoT,” and I wholeheartedly disagree that "the character is so widely encompassing of everyone and anyone who liked OoT." I mentioned it, but I LOVED OoT when I played it as a kid, and only recognized a lot of its contrivances after the Sequelitis video, which was AFTER I had already finished the game 2-3 times over. Hell, I just played the game AGAIN recently with a friend when it released on the Switch Online emulators - it’s still a great game even with all its annoyances and flaws. I wasn’t bothered by the strawman bit at all, and, as Noodle himself shows in his video, the likes dictate most people weren’t bothered by it either. If you watch the Sequelitis vid, the strawman talks in hyperbolic ways: “I’m just writing my preemptive counter argument about how you’re WRONG about my FAVORITE game of ALL TIME, and the BEST GAME EVER.” It’s clear this guy is a very specific kind of OoT fan, not just one who liked the game or even one that thought it was great. I wasn't 'speculating' that some specific people were alienated by the joke, it should be more than easy for the average person to separate themselves from the joke. The fan is someone who refuses to listen to Arin’s words and is supposed to be a joke at those specific people who’s brains DO turn off the second they perceive a negative take incoming. The strawman literally cuts off Arin as he's saying "isn't it time we gave it a FAIR analysis?" It also happens so early in the video that you don’t even really know what Arin is gonna say, so it really just reads as a joke at like forum neckbeards or trolls or other extremely defensive, angry video game nerds. I’ll admit that the quote about “identifying with the guy…” was harsh and could’ve been phrased in a less toxic way, but, fresh after finishing Noodle’s video, it definitely rung true. Again it’s one thing to criticize how badly media has aged, but it’s another thing to state the reasons that media has aged badly while actively engaging in the VERY SAME behaviors. That's the real catch: where Arin's whole schtick is being grumpy about games, Noodle, though he can get riled up in a funny way too, ends up coming off MORE grumpy and angry than Arin. That’s why I said the video is ironic, BECAUSE Noodle does the very things he decries: he's largely ranting about something he dislikes rather than creating a point of discussion, and the part where he DOES show 'better' examples are just videos made in a different era and, honestly, kinda different genres of the internet. And not only does Noodle prove the strawman right by immediately misinterpreting its meaning or, idk, the fact that it's a JOKE, but he also shoe horns in how the videos haven't aged well because of jokes Arin made in, again, a different era of the internet that he's shown to be remorseful of, without even MENTIONING Arin's current thoughts or opinions as a person. There's a very real possibility that someone could watch this video and walk away hating this random dude for something he's already gotten over because Noodle doesn't even take a SECOND to characterize Arin beyond his Sequelitis years. In this way, Noodle poses himself more as someone who’s latched onto a misinterpreted and perhaps honest depiction of an angry video game nerd in a critique he disagreed with, than someone who’s trying to make a salient criticism. To me, the proof of this is in the multiple screenshots Noodle has of old forums and comments, one of which he even liked, expressing hate for the review. The way Noodle comes off in the first minutes of the video, let alone the arduous 30 minute experience, is as someone who was fine with the funny angry game critique videos when they were about games he didn't have strong feelings for, right up until it trashed his favorite franchise. Then, after engaging in the internet pits with people who were also incensed by this guy saying “hey maybe Zelda isn’t as good as you remember it,” decided that he’s gonna get angry about the whole thing AGAIN a DECADE LATER because he has a nagging obsession with the video. All in all, even if I disagree, thanks for taking the time to respond! I can't really express over youtube comments how genuine and validated I feel by your interaction, but once more, thanks buddy.
@@ethanwilliams8103I largely agree with your points about Arins video and oot but I’ll disagree on how noodle portrayed. I honestly understand where Noodle is coming from and his point with the video since it’s honestly not just Arin and Sequelitis itself, but the bigger culture around video game critique that came after it. I don’t think Arin is the person to blame but he kinda became a part of a bigger issue at that time. Noodle even pointed out he personally isn’t even a huge fan of oot One personal critique I have about Sequelitis and honestly Game Grumps in general is that it kinda falls into the “Cinemasins” style of critique. Like yeah he’s exaggerating and probably is overselling some of his points, but he also mixes in critique and that gets hella muddled. It’s this weird style of video that I always feel gives people the wrong impression about whatever the person Is critiquing. For me personally, I feel someone like Somecallmejohnny ended up making a Zelda video that just aged better.
@@luiszapata3897 Thanks for responding! I can appreciate not liking Game Grumps-esqe media analysis, and I agree with your point that Sequelitis was just a small part of a larger culture that had troubles expressing critiques in non-inflammatory or expressive ways. There's a great comment on this video somewhere that says something along the lines of 'I think this is more just a difference in era of internet culture,' citing how interaction online was way more intimate and perhaps emotional, which makes sense in the prime era of counter culture. I personally relate to this culture a lot as I get very passionate when arguing with my friends and family about media or even politics, but we all understand that we're not actually angry or so polarized on such topics. It's just a generational difference, which is something you're allowed to evaluate on how well or not it's aged. But to say that it's outright bad, and the essence of unhealthy toxic gamer interaction, I think is a huge miss cause it's just a different form of review. I said it earlier this chain: it's one thing to agree more with Nakey Jakey or Hbomb because they're more mild mannered than Arin, but it's another thing to say that Arin is right out toxic and bad cause of his video. It also super doesn't help that Noodle is mischaracterizing Arin here. Like you said, he's one person from a larger culture and was a dime a dozen of people like AVGN, Angry Joe, etc. Comedic, angry game reviews were and still are a whole genre on youtube, and to paint Arin as a 'Venemous Ranter,' is not only missing the comedic, almost satirical character Arin is playing, but is also making it more serious than he's trying to be while inadvertently being toxic in its own right. It seems that Noodle is known to do this; I wanted to give him a more fair try, so I watched his 'Video Games are too Big' video. Though it seemed alright to begin with, the comments are very quick to point out how Noodle misrepresents someone by purposely clipping and cutting footage to portray that person wildly outa context, to then make his own assertions on the topic. Noodle has a good point to make about alienating your potential audience, but it's completely lost when it's based on a style of comedy game review you just don't vibe with as much (while also making it out to be the festering wound of game criticism too), and also refuse to characterize Arin as a person who's grown since then, to only make him out as his literal rant-sona. And since this seems to be a pattern of behavior, Noodle's dishonesty or, ironically, strawmaning of other people out of context makes it harder to appreciate his points as well as his value as a creator on the internet.
Part of me agrees that the response was predictable and avoidable but the rest of me is saying that just because you can predict people on the internet getting incredibly angry and defensive when someone criticizes something they like doesn't mean that they're in the right. Just because a reaction is predictable doesn't make it reasonable. Like sure he could have avoided a lot of conflict and made his video more palatable to internet comment section whiners but why compromise his voice to do that. What obligation does he have to avoid conflict.
Ocarina of time is one of my favorite games ever and the opening theme almost makes me cry a bit every time I hear it. Despite this, I loved Erin's sequelitis video on the game and have watched it numerous times despite my disagreements because he's just some dude on the internet and his opinions about things I like don't have anything to do with me. Cope. Seethe. Etc.
Him deviating from or giving caveats to the points he's very passionate/angry about is part of what he claims he's trying to do in the video. He's choosing to frame it as a persuasive essay and not just expression, and part of any persuasive essay is changing your presentation depending on the audience.
the argument was less about 'avoid conflict' and more 'if you make a persuasive video targeted at an audience, you shouldn't prime that audience to reject the video.'
Last week I had to deal with a furious mob in a silly, viralised vid where I put shit on NFSU1. I really love and cherish my memories with that game, but some stuff has aged like milk and I was just ranting about that. And I just don't care about their rage at me, it was what I wanted to say and don't really care that they can't even think about their childhood game not being perfect.
@@TeleportRush Precisely. He even mentions this when explaining how the Vaccines: A Measured Response video doesn't position itself gently towards anti-vaxxers because he knows they'll never watch the video.
So my interpretation of this video - a video about your interpretation of Arin's video - is "Arin has good points but I don't like his delivery/dated humor so that makes it nitpicking and biased. I win. Bye-bye." You make a point to call out how he shows OoT players (which wasn't a generalization of all OoT fans, just the toxic ones who can't handle criticism) to be obnoxious only to be obnoxious himself. While you aren't wrong about your points in a vacuum, this is Arin's comedy style. Yeah it's cringey 2000s newgrounds humor, but that's how he got started and what his fans have come to expect. It seems to me (and I'm probably misinterpreting here) that you have a lot of respect for Arin's views on the subject, but bc he presented it a way you feel is inadequate you feel that it is bad and made a ~30 minute essay video to share it. People are allowed to have bad takes or disagreeing opinions, and we should address/call out incorrect or problematic ones. But I don't think that Arin's video qualifies for that based on what you present here
The funny thing is, I felt his rant about all the waiting was one of the strongest arguments he made while I was watching it because it was just a litany of examples (also because, yeah, I can't play Animal Crossing because of all the waiting, and yes I know it's intentional, and no that doesn't make it less frustrating to me)
Okay but is that bad game design or do you just not like it? Because the success and enjoyment many others get out of waiting and what it can offer to the meaning of the experience seems to indicate it was good game design that paid off in spades. The issue is when the criticism goes from "this didn't work for me for XYZ reasons" to "this thing is objectively of poor quality or standards." Not every game is for everyone and it's always been unfair to hold a sequel to the impossible standards of matching the wonder one felt from the things they enjoyed in their youth. If you come at the Zelda series from a more modern perspective not having nostalgia for the very oldest titles, the completely unintuitive nonsense of the original game and a number of its 2D sequels feel dated, impenetrable, and ultimately end up providing the same problem for the people who didn't experience that issue negatively with OoT: wasting time. We all waste time but we all enjoy wasting time in different ways.
@@kylegonewild whether it's good or bad I guarantee it's intentional. At least in the case of Animal Crossing they didn't want you to binge the game, but even Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom have the same level of hurry up and wait for animations to complete, it just does everything else better because we know how to make better games today. I say it's one of the stronger arguments because it's undeniable the game does that, though in critique, he doesn't -do- anything with the argument beyond express frustration with it. Still, it's the kind of argument I find convincing
@@kylegonewild What are you talking about. A piece of art can't be objectively good or bad. Even if you judge a movie by its pacing and framing and composition and sound design, you're still using a subjective metric. By default, we know that everything Egoraptor says in his video is his opinion. Because that's how opinions work. The words "good" and "bad" in reference to a piece of art signal that it's an opinion. If the listener thinks he's saying something is objectively bad, that's on the listener for not understanding basic grammar. What would "OoT is objectively bad" even mean? That every single human, even the ones that existed in the past and that will exist in the future, will enjoy the game? Even if that was possible (which it's not), how would anyone get that info? They did a worldwide survey and then sent it through a time machine?
The video also ignores the part where arin praises OoT for the enemies that can only attack by making yourself vunerable and how waiting easily gives the illusion of difficulty. That wasn't arin just shitting on the game that was him building to the strongest point he had.
He literally says pre-emptively, as in the strawman is writing an inflammatory rebuttal before watching and considering Arin's criticisms. All of your criticisms of the video are valid, and you're making them AFTER watching the video, i.e. not pre-emptively. Why would you think you are personally being called out/represented by the troglodyte at the beginning? I don't get it
This video really comes off as noodle getting upset because he related too much to the first depiction and then stopped actually listening to the rest of the video
Its been so long now and he has mentioned that he would absolutely have done things differently. I think this was just before everyone was familiar with Arins unique brand of humor. He employs hyperbole and humor that feels directed but unless you are familiar with their work, you should know he only does that as fact a form of self deprecating humor. He insults people who act outrageous with their opinions online because he is doing exactly that, and knows that would be him if he were on the other side. He is aware of his position, aware that there is a toxic portion of the fanbase, and aware that like himself they are passionate about something so much that a heated argument is likley to happen. Been a fan of them for years and this is just their style and humor. I agree it doesnt land with most but i doubt they were trying to cater to a broad audience back then because they have yet to now. They do trends like years late and never cave to public opinion on their show because they, like the rest of the fanbase know everything is satire FULL of hyperbole(insert subway bit here). They know their fan base and do the things they do and make the jokes they make because they know THEIR audience will get the irony and not take things litteraly or to heart. Watching this now just feels like an early less developed form of the humor we enjoy on the channel today!
why? this vid is one of HUNDREDS of vids talking about sequelitis and it says NOTHING original, thoughtful, or novel. just the same old self indulgent arrogant hypocracy he's complaining about.... just like almost every other vid about sequelitis. but maybe itll be an example of a guy publicly smelling his own farts while trying to spray the rest of us with fart-scented deoderant. 🙄🙄🙄
Time for my entitled post-emptive counterargument: I found this video pretty unpersuasive. One issue is that the title is misleading - it's broad, and implies this will be a larger discussion about video game critique. But then you realize this is just a response video to _one_ critique, Egoraptor's Zelda Sequelitis video. When the topic is so specific, yet the title so broad, it primed me to expect the wrong thing going in, and I found myself surprised and confused when halfway through, we were still talking about Egoraptor. Some examples of other videos from some such as NakeyJakey and Hbomberguy are tacked on near the end, and feel out of place. A little too late to start scratching the surface of the larger idea of video game critique 26 minutes in. This is most certainly a "this video bad" video. The main criticisms of Egoraptor, I also found a little weak. The main harping point is the inclusion of the RUclips commenter strawman in the video and the lines about the video not being received well. I understand the point, but eventually I was just like, "Okay, like, I get it, strawmans are bad, talking down to your audience is bad, I get it, can we get to the next point?" Now, the idea of RUclipsrs _expecting_ hate over hot takes and such, and even making jokes about it, was actually pretty common at the time period of the video. This was the era of "flame shields," "that's just my opinion, if you have your own opinion, that's FINE," and troll culture, and the caricature of the Ocarina of Time keyboard warrior was clearly a product of that. There was a chance to launch off of that and discuss the concept in further detail in other videos from the time and further explore the issue with talking down to your audience by singling out hypothetical haters, but that didn't happen. Instead Mr. Noodle makes it seem like this strawman example is unique to this particular video, hence furthering my attitude that this whole shabang is really all about one singular video and not the larger space of gaming criticism. Noodle does not present himself as unbiased or objective, either. He makes it very clear he is a huge fan of The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, and felt PERSONALLY slighted by the sight of the keyboard Zelda warrior strawman, like, it ain't even subtle. That's why he takes issue with Egoraptor "putting words in his viewer's mouths" when he says his subjective opinion with full confidence. "(I don't get lost. I don't mind the waiting. I'm patient. It's you who sucks.)" Thinks Noodle, as implied by his responses. And so the video doesn't read as very genuine, looking less at the specific criticisms made and more on how Egoraptor "comes across," which makes this essay's foundation feel shaky, like he doesn't have much to actually work with because it's driven by emotion and not evidence or logic. That's why the strawman is brought up over and over again as if the video would be fine if that one thing simply weren't there. (14:53 & 16:10) I don't agree with the point that Egoraptor should soften his language and use the first person as opposed to the second person when describing his experience. First of all, the entire video uses second person when explaining the gameplay to place the viewer in his shoes. That's how you make it persuasive. If he uses first person instead, then he's not attempting to sway you, he's just telling you things that happened to him, lessening the impact he's trying to make. I don't even need to put it into words, compare the versions of Egoraptor and Noodle delivering the assertive and passive versions of the lines side by side and hear how much oomph is lost in the latter. Also, Noodle completely ignores the mean words Egoraptor had to say about Skyward Sword, which I find unforgivable.
I always thought that was a weird metaphor to how the Pixel Remasters were being released on platforms that already had most of them. And how Squeenix were basically shooting their fans... again.
This feels like a massive misread of the beginning joke. It clearly wasn't about OoT fans, it was directed towards people who heard him say he'll be critical of OoT and immediately decided they hate the whole video within the first like 30 seconds. Honestly it seems like you just have an aversion to mean spiritedness, and that's fine but I don't feel like that's universal criticism. I mean I wasn't a huge fan of your soft touch this whole video, it felt condescending to me, but that's just the vibe I got from a style someone else might read as more comfortable or personable. Every video will turn off someone, this just turned off you.
a common misunderstanding must be accounted for, this is why people will put some text on screen or an interjection to clarify whats obvious to some is invisible to others
Your Skyrim example illustrated something to me that may run counter to your suggestion that the people should be "given something." At least to me, "B" sounds like an earnest and genuine response erupting from you. "A" sounds like a layer of secondary processing that curtails the essence of what you feel in an attempt at diplomacy. "B" compelled me, while "A" remained tame, and easy to disconnect from. "A" didn't help me relate or understand your point of view any more than "B" did. Everything one says is always one's point of view, even if they express it as if it were objective. I think it is on the viewer to understand this. "B" immediately slams your feelings onto the table, revealing to me an intensity that *has* to come from an earnest point of view, and compelling me to listen because I now need to understand why this reaction exists. The way I see it, your "B" is his Waiting Rant. It bursts down the door and breaks everything. It's fantastic. I also very much like the time Ocarina of Time takes with things. I called it "the slow Zelda" as a kid, especially after I got Majora's Mask later. I should be able to allow my point of view to coexist with yours, no matter how contradictory, with absolutely no further requirement from your part, because this is your video. It is of no importance to me whether you understand my point of view, I've come here to listen to yours. But the homunculus isn't. The homunculus seems to me to represent a very real type of viewer who comes in immediately on the defensive, already conjuring arguments without listening. If a viewer who disagrees with the speaker on any level assumes themselves to be the homunculus depicted, that is 100% on said viewer. They have filled themselves with straw and stood in the corn field of their own volition. They have decided that they won't be convinced, and no amount of diplomacy will solve that. It ultimately doesn't matter what depicting the homunculus comes across. You may ask "Why immediately antagonize them?" Well, why not? Any intelligent viewer wouldn't stop at the "lizard brain," right? So why coddle the audience? Why preface an opinion with conciliatory caveats? What is the video about? What the viewers think, or what the speaker thinks? Also, the "olive branch" you talk about isn't an olive branch, it's a carrot on a stick. The music, the atmosphere, the art direction, none of that has anything to do with the topic of the video, because none of it leads to the conclusion. All of those things would have been hollow enticement, and frankly a bit condescending. The optics of said "olive branch" would come across to me as detrimental to the point, not conciliatory. Regardless, these are styles. Your style now, and his style then. I like both, but I especially like when you do not sugarcoat what you believe. "Fuck it, we ball" is great. Speak your mind and nothing more. The people spoil easy on niceties.
Dude, very well put. I couldn't really put into words why I disagreed with Noodle on this one, but you did it very well. RUclips isn't a place for thoughtful discourse, especially 10 years ago. It is a place for entertainment and emotion. Watching a video about a guy tactfully trying to navigate all sides of the argument doesn't sound nearly as entertaining as a guy passionately ripping this beloved game to shreds. Perhaps I'm biased because I agree with Arin about OoT. But I feel like that if I did like OoT, I would be mature enough to still enjoy Arin's entertaining video. I wouldn't have seen myself as the homunculus, and therefore wouldn't have felt antagonized or insulted. No one should have to waste time in an attempt to appease the homunculus. They're the third party in every argument that contributes nothing.
I disagree, I understand what you mean by speaking your feelings, but I don’t think showing common decency and respect to your audience is coddling them. It’s just being a human being. Me personally, I can’t really relate to example B because I find the attitude to be very obnoxious and overly negative. I don’t take anything away from it in terms of unique perspective I could learn from, not really. The only thing it tells me is that this person is not very pleasant and I wouldn’t want to talk to them for very long. Example A I can relate to a lot more because this person is just being honest, even if I may not agree with them. But maybe this is just a case of how not everybody’s going to see eye to eye and how some people will react differently to how you talk to them. I don’t think someone being uncomfortable with being antagonized is wrong. The same way I don’t think it’s wrong that people relate to that kind of blunt wording. I am not one of those people sadly. There might’ve been a point in time where I was, but as I’ve gotten older, I’ve grown to cringe the overly negative and cynical mindset a lot of people have when reviewing media and I just want to hear someone speak honestly without being a dick about it.
I love oot, and I thought it was obvious that character wasn't a portrayal of me right from the start. It's meant to depict people who get immediately defensive when dealing with any sort of criticism, particularly when it comes to oot, since that's what the video is criticizing. I thought that was obvious from the word go.
Peppering your videos with “I think” or “in my opinion” in a persuasive essay makes it weaker. Any English professor would back me up on that. Spending your introduction alternating between talking up the thing you’re going to be criticizing and reframing your criticism in this mealy-mouthed way that also focused on centering the high status of what you’re critiquing waters it down even more. This video is a long-winded way of saying ”These people aren’t good listeners, and that’s your fault as the speaker.” It’s time to hold audiences responsible for being outrage-addicts that can’t control themselves instead of creators. This isn’t Egoraptor’s fault or his responsibility. Asshole-proofing your work makes it weaker and it doesn’t actually stop assholes. Assholes just like to say that they wouldn’t have been mad if only the creator had expressed their opinion in X Y Z way, even as they trash the opinion itself constantly. It’s bait.
"It’s time to hold audiences responsible for being outrage-addicts that can’t control themselves instead of creators. This isn’t Egoraptor’s fault or his responsibility." Massive agree with this. At the start of noodle's video he shows how the culture around discussing games is dogshit now and filled to the brim with unnecessary outrage just for the sake of it, which it is, but dissecting Egoraptor's OoT sequilitis as an example as if that was the root cause of why discussions suck now.. I don't think Egoraptor making his video nicer to gamers would've made a difference on the culture of today, and it would've made for a worse watch. I get noodle's point of "who is the video for except fans of the game? if so, why disrespect them?" which makes the back and forth of this discussion interesting to me, but like you said, I don't really feel like it is/was Egoraptor's responsibility to word his video slightly nicer to prevent outrage, and the people that did get outraged were most likely going to be outraged anyway. noodle frames this as "there are better ways to get your point across to your audience" but what if Egoraptor wasn't trying to get a point across? What if he just wanted to make an opinion piece about his experience playing a game that everyone enjoys in comparison to the games that came before it? How is the subsequent reaction his fault?
@@kagsbd5071 See, I don't get the whole "who is this video for except fans of the game?" thing. Ocarina of Time is the highest-rated game of all time. It's an omnipresent figure in the culture. Even so, most people aren't hardcore fans. It's like Citizen Kane. It's appreciated and acknowledged to have a high level of quality, but there's not the same level of emotional investment in it from the audience. It makes sense to re-examine such an influential game while expecting that his audience has enough distance from their experience with Ocarina of Time that they'd be receptive to that. And mocking hyper-defensive fans shouldn't turn off everyone in the audience, because I think that Egoraptor expected nearly all of his audience to like Ocarina of Time. The culture around discussing games is terrible, but Sequelitis was never a part of that. The worst forms of toxicity are defensive, at least to me, whether you're talking about people complaining about IGN review scores or fucking Gamergate. Noodle wants creators to cater to those sorts of people without realizing that we have, and that's WHY things are the way that they are.
@@Bashfluff this right here is the absolutely best breakdown of this video. I think "mealy mouth" also is a crazy accurate description of modern noodle in general. All of his videos have devolved into this utter nonsense arguing style about why he's right and you're wrong, but he does it in a wall that undermines himself because he's constantly throwing in "i think" and "my opinion is" to protect himself from criticism. It's so that he can go on Twitter later when this video gets dumped on and said that it was just his opinion and that he was getting attacked for just having an opinion. I guarantee you this video having a very poor reaction will be blamed on "Gamers" because that's his personal bogeyman. He'll likely double down because he doesn't know how to back off and look at his own opinions critically.
I feel like you took the thoughts out of my head and wrote them down for me. I think Joseph Anderson made a very similar point about not saying "I think"
"Why minecraft peaceful mode is terrifying" "why mario is actually about deep philosophical topics and how mario odyssey is related to Crimes and punishment" "why the Y is the most unique game about X" and all of them are like 2 hours long
Arin does not criticize all ocarina fans. he criticizes all ocarina fans who were ready to *preemptively rip on him* without even knowing what argument they were disagreeing with. These people in fact do deserve to be depicted as what would later be known as the "soy wojak".
Yes that’s true. But is that worth enabling when you could simply attempt to convince the few wojaks that are listening that there is a chance that he has a point?
Wow I did not like this video, and honestly I'm having a hard time nailing down why. But I think it comes down to: Why does sequalitis need to be a persuasive essay? Why is it bad to just rant or voice your frustrations with a game, or a franchise, or a fanbase? And why is Noodle upset enough for a 30 minute breakdown about either of those things? Usually I'm really on board for your videos, but this one felt like kind of a reach.
This doesn’t really feel like that big of a deal, I mean it doesn’t seem like he meant for it to be aggressive? Seems more like a joke about how some people comment super aggressively. Idk it was also 10 years ago, maybe his opinion is different now?
I love OoT and i love the Zelda sequelitis. Everyone I know who likes OoT, ALSO likes the Zelda sequelitis. Where are all these supposed people who are upset at a comedy internet video?? I don't understand why we're treating it like academia. It's from the pov of a raging gamer living in a world where people are showering one game with unending praise, and he wants to tear it down. The Zelda vid is funny, it's entertaining, and this whole thing is just not that serious
I'm sorry, but I'm afraid you and your friends have been in a echo chamber all this time. The Zelda sequilitis video was a controversial one from day one, and it's infamous inside game critique circles. Why people treat it like academia, you ask? Because his previous sequilitis videos were academia-like. Sure, there was over the top humor, but his points were 100% serious. You can't do that, then do what he did in the Zelda sequilitis video, and defend yourself with "hey, it's all a joke!" defense. Because if we are not supposed to take you seriously now, then it means we weren't supposed to take you seriously with your "Castlevania" and "Mega Man" videos either. Your can't have it both ways.
@@XanderVJ "You...have been in a echo chamber" Next sentence: "it's infamous inside game critique circles" Literally describing your own echo chamber. "His points were 100% serious" That's just not true. They were mixed with exaggeration and hyperbole for comedy, just like the Zelda one. "It means we weren't supposed to take you seriously with your "Castlevania" and "Mega Man" videos either" It's as serious as you perceive it, clearly. I disagree with your subjective assessment that the past videos were "academia-like." They were comedic entertainment that also contained critique. Just like how Daily Show is a comedy show that contains news. Does that make Daily Show a news show? I'd call it comedy before I called it news. maybe you disagree "Your can't have it both ways" I can, in fact, have it both ways. It's comedy & critique. It's not contraction. It's not hypocrisy. It is, in fact, both
About Noodles Video: I honestly thought this was going to be a video about all of video game commentary's. Arin's video isn't alienating anyone or any audience, it's purely for comedic purposes. Compared to other RUclipsrs who have tried rage bating, or using the "Woke and its broke" mindset, or make videos just for shock value. I think those are perfect examples towards your argument. Arin's video is literally a pond of criticism compared to the vast ocean of shit take trends. About Arin: I'm not as big of a fan of his as I was before GG, not to mention that social media now a days is more tame than it was during the 2000's and 2010's. But everyone was praising Ocarina of Time, all reception was just positive because we thrived on the nostalgia of a game that we held near and dear to us as children. Even a hint of criticism, and if you've been around at that time, trolls were on a different level of toxicity, you would not hear the end of it. Arin brought a new perspective to the table, where we begin to acknowledge a game differently as we grew up. Not to mention the dude loves breath of the wild. My personal opinion: This video missed the mark and only feels like its missing many key points about how videogames should be looked at. Especially a video that was made during a different era of RUclips and gaming media as a whole. It feels incomplete, but I'm looking forward to the next video
Appreciate the effort for the video! I'm not really a huge fan of Arin or anything but I think the main thing you're missing about all this stuff is that being inflammatory is just fun/funny sometimes. A lot of the negativity in that sequelitus video is clearly meant to be comedic. I don't think it's that deep, basically. I'm not really sure what the thesis of this video is supposed to be other than "rude humor is bad and being nice is good", which I don't really disagree with really, but humor is all subjective, right? It's funny, when you were talking about the two examples of people talking about Skyrim, I found the second character to be much, much more interesting because they're clearly speaking from the heart and not pulling any punches. Again, nice video, not trying to be a shithead or anything, I like your stuff lol I just think people should make videos driven by whatever force they wanna be driven by, there is a place for the overly negative jester on the internet, they're usually more compelling and entertaining than people that are trying REALLY hard to not piss anyone off ever
Its his unique brand of humor and they do it nearly every episode. Yeah they poke jabs at us as a fan base but as a fanbase who is familiar with their work they know that is all satire and hyperbole for the sake of the bit. They are ALL about the BIT. We as a fanbase can relate and laugh at ourselves when he makes fun of certain behaviors we all exibit and we can all laugh about it together.
And its not like noodle is nice in many of his criticism videos. He legit does the same type of opening in the BG3 video, yet somehow misses what Arin was doing with his intro.
I can see where you’re coming from, but there’s a big emphasis on intentions and results that don’t work if “nice things are nice” was the entire thesis. It’s tailored made to Arins Oot sequlitis where the intention was pretty clearly to be funny and discuss Oot’s flaws, not spark a discourse devoid of constructive criticism. Which is what happened. Arin went into the video with a goal that wasn’t met because of execution. Noodle gives criticism on his execution and why he didn’t succeed, and in this video it was because he was “too rude” - unintentionally rebuffing the people he was trying to reach. The point of the video isn’t “be less inflammatory” it’s “what are you trying to do and is what you just made actually doing it?”
I don’t wanna be that guy, but at one point I started to realize that the construction of this video’s more humorous and/or heated moments shared a lot of similarities to the video criticized. Not saying that’s a bad thing; in fact, I think a point you were trying to make was that his video could be good if framed differently. But it’s still pretty ironic
I wouldn’t be surprised if this was intentional, but I’m pretty sure it’s not. The key thing is Sequalitis is very much the modern day video essay. Just in general it does a lot of things that we now see as standard for videos like the one noodle made here. It’s definitely ironic this sequalitis video is as bad as it is since it actively shaped the RUclips landscape.
My very first impression of Noodle’s videos was literally “holy fuck he should ask Erin if its ok to take on Sequilitis”. His content scratched that Egoraptor itch thats been missing since Erin went full time on Game Grumps
nah hes just plain wrong on almost everything lol you dont HAVE to respect people's dogwater opinions either. thats how you get psychos like trump, putin and netanyahu elected to power and how you get vulnerable groups of people hurt nutcases and @ssholes like this noodle guy (hes just an @sshole btw not a nutcase im using nutcase for the trumps and netanyahus of the world) dont deserve respect, they deserve ostracization and to be constantly challenged and banned from having access to the public ear and eye.
I am reminded of a segment that takes place in MandaloreGaming's video on Star Citizen (starting at [21:05 of that video]) which highlights the difference between how a Star Citizen backer/player complains about about a gun's balance, vs a fan of /any other game/ doing the same, and how for the former, there is this whole song and dance that has to be done to ingratiate yourself as *one of the group* before you are able to critique a thing. "Yeah Arin, you made some really good points about this Zelda entry, but I need you to temper your "grumpy" persona for a bit so that you can get the nostalgic fans of this game on your side - to give them the equipment needed to be able to /handle/ this truth." I imagine this was Arin's way to either cut through the uncritical tongue-bathing that OoT gets from people who haven't gone back and played it for decades, to give more contrast to the occasions in the video where he is more earnest, or to make the video more engaging. He doesn't want to be entertaining critique from people that didn't watch the video, so yeah, piss those people off - made it to the end, let me have it. Why am I writing this and why do I feel like I've missed the point? Is missing the point meant to be the purpose of *this* video?
The reason this one didn't work became clear with the Skyrim example. A is borderline patronizing. Like you feel the need to apologize and cushion the blow in advance. Arin is aware of what Zelda fanboys are like. You can't reason with them, they will stab you in the street because you said Ocarina bad. We've been making fun of them for years. Just keep going and instead appeal to people who might even like Ocarina, but are reasonable enough to also find joy in mocking its most annoying fans. It's coming from a place of passionate hatred, with enough substance to justify it. As a sidenote, I was always taught to completely avoid saying 'I think' or 'In my opinion' in any piece of journalism. Why would anyone bother engaging with something you're presenting with a 'just saying :)' note attached? DIfferent schools, but it's interesting you're placing so much importance on stated subjectivity, when the general rule, at least in legacy media, is to discard it.
I'm glad someone else thought that. Example A for the Skyrim critique was absolutely dreadful. I'm an adult, I don't need to be coddled before being presented an opinion.
gargoyle on the keyboardmaxxing rn but please hear this point.. there's nothing wrong with attempting to attack the way we discuss and debate mediums, there really isn't. it's just that feeling of self-righteousness that drives those who want to put walls on this (by design) ungovernable medium not only by presenting something that sounds novel but isn't (centralized journalism) and also waving out some conveniently troubling things for the likes of those who are within this mindset (corporate standards, following actual standardized regulation and not just pretending to, uh, being politically neutral ahem..) so I'm sorry but this doesn't really kick in the way I hoped it would. it's attacking from a bad angle, and wrongly. people listening to this are just having their priors confirmed. they're not being told to be more critical of themselves, just critical of those they disagree with. and you've proven that by providing examples of people you agree with that don't at all follow those standards. especially a certain guy who had a whole swath of videos about mocking misinformation and those who believe in it from an often hostile and belittling angle and sprinkling on a bit of his own misinformation. for you to conveniently show the only video that doesn't have any glaring faults in it as "the good yes do that" you broke your own critique of the late disclaimer by.. doing a late disclaimer, you know a lot of the people who don't like you know you as the "I'm not even gonna concede a point based on personal preference" guy. yeah it's good that you finally admitted that you have faults, as everyone does. and putting that later on is better for not watering down the point of the essay, wait. yeah that's exactly why people do that sort of thing! it's the internet folks, it's about that big spark that gets people further in. so the people that need to hear the point about the benefit of some standards in discussion are not going to watch this to the end because they already see you as unreliable, and you may have just confirmed their priors... so yeah uh I'm gonna make coffee now
I mean, who's wrong here to me is obvious: The community, they've has been lashing out at every occasion to the man for 10 years for the sake of "laughing at who's not agreeing with them". They made sure to shut him up with so much hate that Sequelitis was no more. On many occasions during Game Grumps can we hear Dan praising him for that video and Arin not having any spark to defend himself anymore. We're borderline victim blaming here, think of it; From the very start until the end of Sequelitis, Arin makes a point of depicting what really annoys him: People blinded by nostalgia, alienating this audience is on point, he is not talking to them, they will not listen nor does he want them to. You want to sugar coat his entire video as if it were not already presented with a tone of self aware cartoonish rage. Pointing fingers at him saying he's wrong for getting people to attack him is destructive in this case, it teaches everyone that they should stay in line and walk carefully a minefield set by the few people owning the community and steering it to inflammatory discourse. I get your video is more about helping people not to get those reactions, but I would argue it's cowardly and frankly boring... not to mention hypocritical as you have yourself posted many unhinged rant, with swearing, with self aware cartoonish rage, only difference is that you picked less risky topics. My point is, depicting leaders, kings, gaming gurus into fools and mocking them is textbook satire. Arin depicts a picture you don't want to be, he invites us to step away from it by alienating that mean goblin out of us. It's smart and elegant, painting a fool and letting people see their flaws without accusing them of any is not only tasteful but sensitive. He's not pointing fingers at specific individuals, but rather towards an archetype. The community however, instead of having the class to attack an archetype inspired from Arin, decided to attack him personally, throwing ad hominem at every opportunities. Why not guiding people away from that attitude and learn to take things with a grain of salt? Amusingly, a great portion of his points have been addressed in Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom, yet people both praise those games and still refuse to cut him some slack. -Also if you do a comment video, please do a silly voice that undermines my point :)
I have a hard time being mad about it. Why isn't this video made for me, a person who is not mad about it? Now I'm mad! That's it! I'm making a video essay!
Long-time Zelda fan here who recently watched sequelitis again, still found it funny, and loves the content you and Arin have both produced for many years now. I disagree with several points you made. Firstly you argued that representing his opposition who loved OOT as the "hunchback of Notre-Dame" would ostracize the community he was trying to reach. However, his depiction was never intended to represent the entirety of those who did not share his views. While it still may not be the best strategy to represent someone as a grotesque, ignorant, rude, and loud monster of a man, that was targeted towards the small minority of his opposition who would inevitably refuse to even hear him out before angrily lashing out. I never once felt as though that depiction was meant to represent me, a OOT fan. Furthermore, you criticize many of his points about the game's design as if he was comparing his unique experience to a worldly and inevitable truth. Except he never once claimed that these issues such as the "spinning blades of death" were an issue for every player, but rather a critique that the game's design allowed for players such as him to experience those issues on a regular basis. That is a valid critique of the game's design, even if it was represented in a more comical manner. Many of Arin's methods of arguing for his opinion were not as effective as possible, but that's in large part due to his desire to entertain while also educating, and he was using the style of comedy that his fans had grown to love. Also it felt a bit in poor taste to refer to him as "hitlerian", especially without discussing why you would say something like that. This was alongside referring to behavior as "hitler-posting", which again is hard to interpret when you are not actually talking about someone posting content supporting Nazi beliefs. You constantly brought up that his original video was filled with slurs as well, but I cannot for the life of me remember him using slurs. It would have been very helpful for us to have had you actually reference examples of him doing so, even if they had to be somewhat censored, so that we could actually understand what his original words were than having to try and dig through his original 30 minute video in order to find them. These aspects of your video seemed to contradict your points about extending an olive branch and not defaming your opposition as they came off as attacks on his character rather than his argument. The reason I still love his videos is not only that I find them informative and hilarious, but that I will always respect someone's right to have a different belief on a topic than I do, even if I really love it. Especially when they can construct it in a well thought-out manner and if they present that opinion openly despite it being unpopular. These are some of the same reasons I love that you made this video as well, even if I disagree with many parts of it. It just feels like you're lumping in all OOT fans together simply because many have critiqued his video. You say things like "imagine how a dedicated fan of this game would react?", as if we all have the same reactions and thoughts. Me and many other people who first found Zelda through OOT and have held the series as our favorite ever since still thoroughly enjoy his video. Treating all OOT fans as the same due to their membership in a group violates our individuality that allows us to be different despite our shared interests. Many of your points seem to over-emphasize a possible effect as if that effect is inevitable and spread against the entire community he is attempting to reach. I did not view Arin as being disgustingly obscene and an a-hole to me just because he likes to emphatically make an argument against a game I love, especially when most of his points were correct. Overall I felt like your arguments were a bit narrow-minded, as if instead of you seeing it through the lens of "how can this behavior and presentation negatively affect the impact on his audience", you seemed to viewing it as "how can this behavior and presentation negatively affect the impact on his audience, and once I find those aspects I will levy them on the entirety of his audience despite their possible differences in interpretations, while also regularly referring to him as a Hitler supporter." It also didn't help that you expect your viewer to watch you criticize his video, but begin by saying they don't need to watch the original simply due to the existence of outdated jokes or material. While you did a good job presenting several aspects of his video, warning people from watching the original and then critiquing it doesn't seem the most conducive towards fostering an open dialogue. I still enjoyed watching through your video and I'm happy you made it because it opened up an interesting discussion on how to promote a belief without ostracizing those who disagree, something I love and wish there was more of an emphasis on. Thank you
I think the main problem in this video is that you have the belief that Egoraptor's intent in his OOT video was to persuade fans of OOT to realise their favourite game of all time should instead believe that the game actually was bad and poorly made and should feel stupid for liking it. I believe this wasn't the point of his video. Egoraptors Sequelitis videos were in my opinionmeant too show what previous videogames in a series have done, how they built their audience and what made their games fun then contrasting how it has changed with their "newer" releases to the franchise. That is what I believe Egoraptor is critiquing about in his OOT video, he is saying that OOT changed some features that made the other games fun for him (the waiting and the longer grand story). Its pretty silly but if your video was actually more about how to talk about videogames online( which is the title of your video) instead of shitting on a decade old video which was made (in terms of how quickly youtube/internet has evolved) in different time then this video could of been great and actually been informative. I am aware that this video does go over points on how to talk about videogames online but its mainly shitting on a egoraptor's decade old youtube video by using todays online etiquette. I do have more issues with this video but I believe noodle was missing the point Sequelitis A Link to the Past vs. Ocarina of Time video is which is MY main problem.
The homonculus wasn't _all_ fans, but those folks who like to leave comments about the video before they actually watch it. There's no need to change the "you" to "I" because it's a hypothetical or general statement about puzzles in games, not necessarily OoT Say what you want about the man but he knows game design.
You made me realize I was kind of doing this on Reddit, being too inflammatory to my opposition, because people on there tend to be hostile so I started also being a little hostile when discussing things. Thanks for the unintentional reality check 👍 I’ll try to stop that.
This has been repeated to me almost verbatim from other reddit users. After the latest reddit controversy, an online nerd group I’m a part of suddenly became flooded with former reddit users. They started out being super hostile when talking about our silly nerd stuff before eventually realizing they didn’t have to be. I actually got a sincere apology from a guy when I’m called him out on this. I think feeding off hostility legitimately affects how people view others.
Dude you're acting like he's required to be "meet fans halfway" or avoid making people mad. It's his opinion and why should he water it down for other people? Assuming he was exaggerating his views for the video, he posted it for entertainment value and idk why you're getting so mad about it.
Fr, the video he criticised Is 10+ years old. Its not even useful to challenge It because you would need to assume that Erin's views remained exactly the fucking same for 10 years
I loved that Sequelitis episode. It captured everything I couldn't stand about Ocarina of Time. I hated how much waiting there was. I still hate when I'm forced to wait through something like Fallout/Skyrim's kill animations for the 50th time in an hour. I think Arin's argument SHOULD resonate with almost everyone in that regard, since why wouldn't a gamer want their games to respect their time. Especially as you grow up and have less and less time to spend on them. I like OoT and enjoyed my time playing it (got 100%), but it always frustrated me that it was heralded as the "absolute best" Zelda when it had such obvious flaws. I also loved your FPS video. It's what got me watching this channel in the first place. The similarities between these two videos you even bring up: It's cathartic for those who feel the same way. I want to hear the passion and the anger and the frustration. That makes a video way more real than one that has to constantly reassure me I'm not the target. Your FPS video clearly displays not just your passion about the argument, but your love for animation as an art form. In the same way, I think Arin's video clearly shows how passionate he is, not because he hates OoT, but because he loves games. I don't think any creator or essayist has any obligation to try to appeal to widest audience. I also think that Arin's "hunchback" OoT player is meant to represent something that's still a problem to this day online: people only engaging with the headline/title of something and not the content. Arin throws that person out the window, because they don't actually contribute to the conversation. Practically my entire life I've heard people complain about "clickbait titles" and "clickbait thumbnails" and, unfortunately, we'll keep seeing them because they work. Arin is deliberately saying that people who aren't interested in watching the video should just leave the people that actually watched it to discuss it amongst themselves. The only reason people are so upset by his video is because people started taking Sequelitis as some sort of gamedev gospel, and not just one player's opinion. That's not to say they have no value. That's still not Arin's fault. People's inability to handle criticism of something they like is their problem, not ours. I don't think those people deserved to be catered to by creators like you, Noodle. Acknowledging the flaws in something is not hate, but love, because we express our criticism in the hopes to bring about a better future.
100% this. Anyone who was around for this period of online history will get where Arin was coming from. And like... his over-the-top, angry, hyperbolic presentation was *the point*, that's why people watched him.
"I agree and so should everyone else" you I am not impatient, I have work and I still can enjoy stuff in games that takes time, if you don't like it, that you, but to imply it's an objective thing that everyone should agree is nobish, people have different tastes, and they are allowed to, as are you, you can criticize it for not doing what you want and say you wish it was different for your enjoyment, but to say that it is wrong for doing what you personally dislike, that Is pardon my words....an asshole thing to do, I love moments were you just chill and absorb the vibe in a game, and I don't go claiming that everyone video game, like overwatch or any other frantic game should be like that And the notedrame thing, yeah, he was trying to talk about an minority, but in the video just comes out as "everyone that disagrees with me and wants to have arguments against what I said, look at you"(my first sentence was trying to invoke that feeling in you, by diminishing everything you said and presenting you in a bad way) But I do think because you agree with arin, you are letting more stuff go, but if it was against what you value, you would be pissed off
@@cryfly1 "But I do think because you agree with arin, you are letting more stuff go, but if it was against what you value, you would be pissed off" Not really, some of us know shtick when we see it, and know how to manage our feelings.
In addition, getting majorly butthurt to the point of dragging out a grudge out to > 10 years over someone's video game criticism is quite childish. I believe the kids call it "cringe".
@@Beautifulbrokenmusic some of us, I am like that, I don't get mad at others opinions, but you claiming that everyone that disagrees with the original video and had probllems with are just butthurt crybabies, that is not showing maturity, and that doesn't make you seem like the type of people who would just take others opinions in a calm manner, you are saying one thing but displaying another, a person who can take others criticism is not the person that would say those same people are just snowflakes You can call me a snowflake even tho I like arin video despite loving ocarina of time, but still, you can call me whatever, it's okay, but in you doing so just makes more of your points be an rant of a basement angry nerd, not saying that is what you are, just that it's coming off this way
People were WAY more annoying about OoT when this video came out. I feel like the obsession with it has mostly cooled off compared to time time the video came out. That's why this video doesn't want to meet them halfway or extend an olive branch. The intent was to dunk on OoT and its hyper annoying fans with good points, not to convince OoT fans that the game has issues, so I disagree with your central point.
I get the whole "they should have framed their argument differently to make it more apparent it is a subjective take" angle, but to anyone who understands subjectivity or what an opinion is doesn't need to be reminded of that. "Speaking subjectively" is silly thing to say he needs to work on. If you read a Roger Ebert critique of a film he hates, he doesn't need to "extend the olive branch" to make it more palatable to people who may love the film. If he says the movie is garbage, he doesn't need to qualify ot with "in my opinion" because we already should know everything he is saying is subjective. Gamers are some of the only man-children that need opinions so padded by soft, cushy forewords explaining how they shouldn't be offended by someone elses views. Being so worried with how everyone feels about a joke you make or how you construct an argument to take everyone's feelings into account robs the project of passion. Going back to Ebert, would his reviews of terrible movies be anywhere near as great or notable if he tried to make sure nobody who worked on the movie's feelings were hurt if he talked poorly about their work? It results in a friendly, but blunted and boring opinion. And that's what people need to keep in mind with any of this, dont get bent out of shape over some internet guy saying a game you like sucks. He isn't wrong, but neither are you.
Reading Ebert's very negative North review you still get the idea that it's Roget Ebert's view on the movie and he praises Elijah Wood's other roles and mentions he likes other Rob Reiner movies. I'd say the issue is that videos and speakers tend to use technical jargon and sloppily stating things as facts rather than opinion. Doesn't help when videos throw around jargon and practices and principles of the craft which I feel prime the viewer more into interpreting the video as "trying to be objective."
I am so glad you made this video - not complaining about it at all - but I find it incredibly funny that we are STILL ARGUING ABOUT SEQUELITIS! That shit came out the same year The Lego Movie did. If it were a child it would be starting the 5th grade.
I like all your videos but this ain't it, chief. Other videographers at the time (Such as Zero Punctuation and Jello) all made the same observations: OoT was seen as "perfect" by fans and could not be criticised in any form or bested by any newer titles. That's why egoraptor is vitriolic and why he had the troll character in the yellow shirt at the beginning. He's speaking directly to those people as a bit, the late 00s presentation aside. He is 100% thinking about the audience and knows who the audience is. Context matters but it seems to have gone right over your head this time around. You focussed so much on that one character at the start that it's coloured your perception of the rest of the video.
I thought this video was going to be something much different... I hope another video comes from this that tackles the idea I had in my head. I loved OoT, and wanted to consume anything that had to do with it. I loved Arin's Sequelitis video so much. It didn't change my perception of OoT or it's fans. It did make me think about the game and how I interact within it's world as a player. I thought the video accomplished what it set out to do, and then some. It was easy to understand while laying out some of the biggest issues with Zelda's first 3D game. This video just feels like a negative spew of some analysis but mostly just empty complaining. I think there are much better examples out there what what you are trying to say. I hope you tackle this topic again, in a different way. The plot feels lost.
Hi Noodle, long time watcher, first time commenter (I think). I always liked the intro of that video because it's not there for people who love the game, it's there for people who have no interest in thinking critically about it it, and simultaneously let people know that if that's them it's not for them. What's wrong with that? we're a bunch of faceless people on the web, it's not real, if people acted like they do here in real life there would be 5,000% more murder (conservatively). What I mean is, there is no reason for someone to try to appeal to the vocal negative minority, it's a waste of time and never works. Even if you do win them over, you lose others for being spineless. Wow, this is long, well if you see this cool. Otherwise, I'll see you in a few months :)
Wow, just finished the video, that was the whole thing... I'm not even sure what to say to that. You misunderstood 30 seconds of a video, had it color your entire opinion, and then made a less funny less thought provoking video 10 years later... Jesus
@@DaRogue101 He foreshadowed it at the start when he identified with a smelly angry hunchback and assumed everyone else felt the same. It was supposed to make fun of people who would leave a comment saying 'NUH UH' and leave without actually listening to and understanding his criticisms. Ironic huh, lmao
Simply as a viewer, I disagree more with this video than with that one. Yes, the strawman was ugly and unnecessary; yes, the cussing and shouting was crass; yes, he did objectify some subjective stuff he didn’t have to. But, man, subjectivity is implied; we’re all adults in here; and even if I loved Ocarina I would surely know that depiction of a Zelda fan was not a literal representation of how he pictures me. His video was fine. However, as someone who sometimes dabble in trying to be persuasive on the internet, you are entirely, completely right. It all comes down to, was Arin main goal with that video to be persuasive? If so, his video was indeed a failure. But maybe he was more angling towards being entertaining, or even inflammatory! In this case, utter success.
I'm not sure why you're jumping to the conclusion that he's trying to persuade. Maybe he just wants to express his opinions? Personally I love hearing people's opinions on games when they differ from me
I'm going to say the exact same thing to you, Mr. Noodle, that I said back when I first Arin's OOT video: "I don't feel as strongly as you reguarding this but I respect your opinion and a lot of the points you bring up are very valid" I still like OOT, I still like Egoraptor and his video on it, and I still like you, you silly little piece of paper on a stick :) Back in those days though I think gamers were a bit more.... Emotionally attached to their favorite franchises back then and Arin knew that in order to stand out and get his opinion heard he pretty much had to come out of the gate as strong as he did. I'm sure he could've been nicer about it but then you wouldn't be making a video about it probably and I like when the funny cartoon guy talks about vibimeo geams
This video feels weird... I started the video believing that it would be about videograme criticism and how to do it. But after 10-15 min, it really feels like a long rant about a 10 year old video like it's the source of all videogame discource that came afterwards. It maybe wasn't the attention, but it looks like at times that you are doing what you're criticizing, which is not being objective. I may have missed something, but again, I can't shake that bitter after taste...
I saw some pretty level headed responses disagreeing with noodle. I kinda disagree with a few things too, but he's not wrong about how to change people's minds, or how some of the nitpicks about his subjective experience with certain puzzles/frustrations weren't universal. Some one else has said it better than I ever could, but at the time it was speaking in response to how hard it was to say anything negative about the game, so many people would really rile up, even if you started warmly with your criticism.
0:56 Holy smokes Genuinely THAT is my brain worm. Extra Credits had taken over my life at some point. My brain worm looks like Dan. Immediately as you started talking about this topic I went Does Noodle know extra credits.
u can get the ally rn at rog.gg/NoodleAllyX if u want....
and if I don't?
noogle hello
dont cae
no i poor spend money on sepcial edition frogger crocs
@@cobalttj6356 almost first
step one, everyone else is wrong
step two, my opinion is objectively correct
Step three, spread my opinion around the internet as fact!
step four, slur.
@@JunkNVamps Step four: "I agree with everyone.
wow everyone in this comment section is wrong and step 1 is wrong and stupid and if you think im wrong your stupid
He didn’t even make it 2 minutes without an Amen break. His condition is worsening.
rate of increase in breakcore content is proportional to rate of increase in quality
Its terminal 😢
Love the Amen but I actually never use that break in my songs; think and hotpants are so sweet🎉❤
breakcore isn't a disease. It's a lifestyle.
@@liamjohnen8426 you're wrong.
Here's how I know, the quality was already off the charts, so you couldn't have possibly measured it
This was the WORST Scott the Woz video I've ever seen
Objectively
I know right he doesn’t even mention Nintendogs for DS once this video…
The Woz has lost his Woz for sure
The scott lost scott
It's my first
Breaking down one decade-plus-old video feels like limiting the impact of this critique.
A broader look at the era's culture of criticism, or reconnecting the context with how Arin engages in criticism today, would have made this stronger.
This felt a bit incomplete, which is a rarity for this channel. Love what you do, Noodle, looking forward to the next one!
You’re not wrong, but this is a whole English teacher response which I find incredibly funny especially in this context
Moreover the whole thing was spurred on from a joke about people who immediately shoot an argument before watching the video. Which was common. Which is *still* common.
The video would have been like 1h long
To be honest it being the norm in that era doesn't make it any less of a problem nor consequential of the reasons discussed in this video. I lived through that era, but immediately connected with the point of this video despite of that because of the very first things he showed, being the homunculus joke, the approach Arin took, etc.
Take in mind the title of this video: it's more of a tutorial than an overview. It isn't focusing on the era of gaming, because if Arin had released that video 2 years ago it still would be a solid example for this topic.
I agree. I thought it would be put in context.
i saw the first 10 seconds and asked myself: "why the fuck is noodle now shaggy?"
He's been living on Scooby Snacks since he crashed his car into his house a few videos ago
Halloweennnn
Glad I'm not the only one
Noddle
Now I can't unsee this
it's almost like he's some kinda grumpy gamer
Say that again
Is almost like this is a 10 year old video
Hey, i'm grump!
@@Fractals_ I am not as grunp
@@leavemealone802 yeah, people 10 years ago didn't know how to communicate neither make well-constructed arguments
As I always say, you have to ask yourself “Do you want to be right, or do you want to have a conversation?” Because those are two very different goals.
Insert reference to current Politics here
What if I just want to argue, without any care to the point?
@@OmegaMultiplayer i agree i often come wanting a convo but get hit witha. Solid wall of wanting to be right then it ends up escalating and or i try to drop the subject
@@rattles2326
consider getting a job
@@rattles2326
consider getting a job
I kinda expected this video to be more about video games internet debate, and not a 30 min rant over a 10 years old youtube video. Still enjoyed the video I’m just a bit confused.
Yeah was expecting more than just 1 video used as an example.
I feel like noodle is also flawed as a reviewer in their portrayal of topics, even though i love their content
It is sort of the pinnacle of "who asked?"
@@WISETORTISE True!
In a way, the video is exactly the same as the sequelitis video...
Yeah, title got me. Stayed because I like both Egoraptor and Noodle. But it sure wasn't what I was epecting it to be.
I think a lot of people forget that channels like AVGN were not actually reviewers, the Angry Video Game Nerd was a character for a comedy short. It's kind of crazy how HE became a new blueprint for two decades
I remember people took those kinds of videos far more seriously than any sane person should. Many people would form their opinions solely on the AVGN's videos. I think now people are a little more capable of forming their own opinions these days.... right?
@@rabidguineapigno, people are the same. Not worse, perhaps better, but mostly the same.
Nowadays its "based gamers" channels vs "niche channels"
AVGN wasn’t the blueprint, SNL was
The domino effect of AVGN all the way to weirdos saying shit like “How (insert media) broke me”
I feel like Arin portrays his argument like that because it was a popular way of critiquing things at the time. Channels like Nostalgia Critic, Angry Joe, RedLetterMedia (specifically the Plinkett videos), and I Hate Everything were popping off at the time doing similar types of rant/angry videos. There was an understanding that the reviewer was being over the top for the entertainment of the video, not necessarily trying to avoid logical fallacies or alienating the audience
Same with the jokes, he's ignoring the context in which the video was released in. I'd say that's the entire reason why it was overall well received.
@@mastracu66207 Nope. The video was horribly made ESPECIALLY taking into account the context it was made.
One of the things that people tend to forget about the "angry nerd ranting on the internet" style of critique is that the reviewer makes fun of themselves almost as much, if not more than of the thing they are critiquing. Not to mention that usually they didn't make fun of the people who did like the piece in question, and even acknowledge its strong points.
But Arin didn't do any of that. His yells may be over the top, but the things he's yelling about are 100% straight.
@@XanderVJ "Not to mention that usually they didn't make fun of the people who did like the piece in question"
Neither did Arin. He made fun of the pre-emptive "didn't watch, still responded" style of argument, which I feel like people have gotten way better about not doing but I definitely saw plenty of at the time.
@mastracu66207 I think compared to the other videos Arin made, the Zelda one really seem like it was him just having his personal gripes than it being a flaw of the game. Not to say there aren't some good points in it but I guess it didn't really seem as structured as the others and more off the cuff feelings.
@@mastracu66207I mean???
Even noodle says it’s mostly funny and appeals to him, the video never offended him specifically because he already said he’s not the biggest OoT fan either. This was more about unpacking why it failed to resonate with so many people despite being so entertaining.
He’s sings the videos praises multiple times.
Arin was getting hate at the time for his critiques here back then, it was huge and it still echoes today.
The reason why dudes like me and noodle (and a lot of you) likely didn’t care was a mix between not being enough of a fan or having thick enough skin to not be bothered if someone jabbed at media you liked, especially in an entertaining and funny way
Which is great! But Arin himself made the video specifically NOT to reach people like us. He was making it for the people he WOULD be pissed at the notion that OoT may not be good.
And noodle was judging it on how well it appeals to THEM and where that went wrong
If you meant stuff like the slurs (which I doubt), uhhhh no? it was wrong then and it’s wrong now
I think a big part of this video is just inspired by generational differences in expectations in internet etiquette. Because I’m almost exactly Arin’s age, I fucking love OOT with my entire soul, I watched his OOT vid when it first came out, and none of it registered with me as any more than the standard background reading of Internet Snark and condescension. That’s just how things were.
Arin speaks like he’s writing an early 00s forum post, where a big unwritten rule is: even starting a new topic, you have to act like the conversation has been going on without you before you jump in, and so heading off would-be detractors and acknowledging-through-omission commonly held assumptions like how widely beloved and generally groundbreaking the game is, as not to be repetitive and thus boring, is generally considered good form.
The internet used to be a lot more intimate and interconnected, so you had to take these kinds of actions and assumptions to contribute to the conversation, and that’s the cadence Arin is speaking in. He’s not (or was not) used to how it is today, where every post/video/whatever is made in a discreet space that might potentially be anyone’s first experience on the internet ever, algorithm willing, and has to build context as it goes to account for that.
That is such a great thing to think about when considering the context of certain videos being made within a certain time. I think the time in which people make and upload videos should ALWAYS be considered when giving criticism.
I think a lot of it was just that the done thing was a lot more confrontational. Look at Nostalgia Critic, AVGN, etc. They're loud, angry, and crass. They purposely antagonize the viewer, and the viewer knew not to take it too personally. I agree, a lot of this is just a cultural disconnect.
There is an argument that the angry review shouldn't be the template for actual criticism, but I don't think that that's something that the collective Internet would really realize for at least a couple more years.
Nail on the head right here.
Its just zoom zooms are their special snowflake syndrome where their feelings need to be placated before you present your arguement or else they get mad and wont listen to you hmmph!
@@TheShitSmith I think a lot of those early game review channels were entertainment at the forefront, and actual criticism was more experiential with when they played the game.
Arin spoke with passion and I guarantee still recognises the inherent importance of ocarina of time. It's a cultural milestone for videogames as an artform, and even with those sprinkled bits against his audience I feel they're more tounge in cheek.
So, I think this is kind of a miss by noodle imo.
First, and what bothered me the most, was saying that Arin completely isolated the intended audience with the strawman in the beginning (which I will agree, it totally was.). That wasn't OoT fans, that was specifically those who defend it without choosing to take a deeper look, the type who would just write out a massive comment before watching the video. It was meant to poke fun at best, or antagonize at worst, the type of fan who is unable or unwilling to look deeper at a piece of media they loved.
Second, the lack of context. Arin's video game out 10 years ago. Internet arguments, and the zelda fandom in general, were VERY different 10 years ago. This is most apparent with the comparison to the Red Dead 2 review. Comparing a review from 10 years ago to a review from 5 years ago feels disigenuous. Sequilitis came out when youtube was still kinda the wild west, where you said what you wanted, how you wanted. NakeyJakey's video came out when youtube was getting more stable, when reviewers knew that unabashed opinions were very much not a good idea. And as for the Zelda fandom, the video came out when OoT was the golden child of the gaming world. Critiquing it was not something you could do lightly, any admittance of, "Well, these aspects were good, lets talk about them." was taken as a reason to ignore and of the bad things, and you were seen as a Hypocrite.
Third, this is a smaller complaint but I definitely think it's worth bringing up. The lack of mention at how this video is a decade old, and the internet was very different back then. You stated in the beginning that he is controversial, but then accidentally add onto that controversial nature by bringing up things like Slurs without even a sidenote of that the video is 10 years old. You cannot claim to not want to discuss him as a person and then ad to the fire that makes him controversial.
Fourth, failure to bring up that even he has stated that he regrets making the video. An extension of the third point in a way, you speak as though the Arin Hanson that made Sequelitis - ZELDA: A Link to the Past vs. Ocarina of Time in 2014 is the same Arin Hanson on Game Grumps in 2024. You brought up that your Extrapolation video and how you regret aspects of it, and think it could've been done better. Arin has said the exact same thing, and it would've been nice if you had brought that up at all, it may have even added to your point a lot. "Even Arin Hanson HIMSELF said that this video could have been made better."
Overall, I think this video just misses too much context and adds to the fire of Arin Hanson hate that has spread around the internet ever since that video came out. It comes off as trying to look at the video itself, but struggles to seperate that video from Arin himself, and then fails to ever mention that it's struggling to do so.
You (and noodle) should watch ArchWizardCJ's "noodle lied & why triple AAA games suck" video
This perfectly encapsulates my issues with this video - Noodle does the very thing he decries here. Arin has grown, and to essentially shovel up ten-year content and present it as his current thoughts is disingenuous at best. If you want a conversation about talking fairly, you actually need to talk fairly.
@@kimi7396eh idk bout grown but he moved on
Excellent comment. Those are also the thoughts I was having while watching the video - the lack of context, the characterization of those commenting before watching, talking about Arin the person anyway, and especially the fact that the video was made 10 years ago by a very different person than Arin is today - and you put them well. The premise of critiquing and analyzing a video made 10 years ago is… odd to me? Even though it was largely well-done, aside from these criticisms, I'm not sure how much this positively added to a conversation that needed to be had.
@@klausbaudelaire5754 its a new take on a strawman argument just to shill for the ROG ad placement. almost all this guy's videos now feature ads. Nobody brings up the CJ video where someone pointed this out a while ago. its not the first time he's done this, this is just his laziest attempt is all.
I feel like Noodle, through this video, has fully explored the feeling of "You might have some really good points, but you're pissing me off." more than any other youtuber I've seen.
If someone has good points, they have good points. Stop making your emotions someone else's problem.. When did having your hand held and your tummy rubbed become a requirement for taking on new information?
I hate this soft new world.
@@WardenAzdron When did it become acceptable to be rude and insulting for no reason when you could have a calm, reasonable discussion without slapping someone in the face?
The concept of courtesy is not new
@@WardenAzdron You don't hate anything new here, you hate etiquette. A millennia-old concept.
@@WardenAzdron News flash. No one is more receptive to information after getting insulted. A great way to get people to ignore your points is to make them mad first.
@@WardenAzdron "stop making your emotions someone else's problem" yeah, well, stop making your whiny feelings about "this world" everyone else's problem
7:00 "Sun Tzu said that. And I think he knows a little bit more about how to talk about video games online than you do, pal, because he invented it."
FUN FACT i only learned recently: Sun Tzu did in fact say "If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight". That line is actually in the Art of War. Solider TF2 wasn't lying.
Sun Tzu voiced Soldier in TF2.
"And then he perfected it so that no man could defeat him on a video response"
@@666GodofDark And that's why whenever you're on the verge of victory in a game, you father asks "are ya winnin, Sun?"
Unless it's a farm simulator!
@@LegoSkeleton SOILDER CAN READ???
It used to feel like the world paused when a Sequelitis episode dropped lol, it was tragic to see it end so soon.
Buddy, it's not that deep and noone ever felt Egoraptor was that important. Go outside.
Like you want proof dude was always a major cunt, watch The Tester.
Hey! Its furry boy!
I was just watching your old morrowind vids wtf
It's funny how Arin's video still spurs arguments. So much so, that we have reached the point of meta analysis of why that is.
meta analysis of meta analysis of games. the endless cycle.
Yeah these people need to move on, and not feel so targeted hahaha.
And even the "meta analysis" is sparking it's own arguments, I have legitimately seen people in this comment section say "Arin did nothing wrong".
probably cause its a good vid with some good points
unlike most derivitave reactionary trash like the vid were commenting on now
@@aa-tx7th you missed the whole point of the video. he’s using it as a way to understand what not to do in an argument-even if it’s an old example, the points he brings up are very good, and he even critiques himself at the end.
old vids just aren’t that good sometimes.
_"The strength of a critic lies in the consistency of their voice."_ Despite coming from Dunkey of all people, this quote still lives in my mind, and for more than just criticism.
Wow that is actually pretty good
Yeah dunkey is a good critic
As Dunky once said "the strength of a critic lies in the consistency of their voice - Dunky"
He said his own name
Like a Pokémon
Dunkey is one of the most unpretentious and intelligent people on this platform, I have zero trouble believing it was him who said that.
Fitting given his sonic frontiers is about on par with the video this video is about...in being assholeish fir no reason.
the biggest problem with the OoT Sequelitis is that it came out when I was an impressionable teenager who got all of his opinions from the internet, and it made me think the game I loved was actually bad
Hey cool to see you here
I was a teenager and watched the sequelitis and didn’t think oot was bad?
well clearly you weren't as impressionable as me
yeah I bet this will be one of the largest comments on this video
I was a teen and I just thought arin was an idiot who didn’t know how to read. It was apparent in his metal gear awesome videos lol. “WTF NO ONE TOLD ME THERE WOULD BE BOMBS THERE”
I don't mind Arin calling me a moron because he's right.
17:09 i remember from one game grumps episode Arin said that’s one of the things he’d go back and change about the video, because you can just look left and right to see it
Even he admits that the point of the game was how you see things in a 3D space.
I feel like if I were to summarize this video into one sentence it would be :
"You’re not wrong, you’re just an asshole."
-The dude
-Wayne Gretzky
-Michael Scott
-Sun Tzu
- Duke Nukem
- Scott Wozniak
- PussySlammer9000
- Me, a fuckboy
- You, a bitch
- Dylan Guptill
- Jeremy Elbertson
being a loud @sshole is likely the ONLY way youll be heard. especially now with the internet being so crowded with users, ruzzian/chinese bot farms/trolls, and bots.
also the guy in this vid is literally the biggest loudest @sshole in the room and he aint even right 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
he's OBJECTIVELY wrong and hes also a complete unaware hypocrite while doing it too
I would summarize it as, “This very biased, paper-skinned guy got mad about a ten year old video about a flawed game, clearly because it struck a nerve that still bothers him, and took a decade to say that the video ‘failed’…even though it clearly started the discourse it was trying to spark, lol.”
Also, fuck OoT puzzles. Great game overall, but shooting those little stone eyes WAS stupid.
sun tzu, he said his own name. like a pokémon
22:25 "singing the game off and sucking its praises" is such a good line
The argument assumes the point of the review is to win the Ocarina of Time lovers over instead of communicating Arin's experiences in hopes it resonates with someone. Tapping into other people's experiences in a game might make them less likely to rage, but it isn't the responsibility of the reviewer. Reviewers communicate their experiences, their perspective and do not need to assume the point of view of the greater audience to make their opinion valuable, especially in the context of such a widely beloved game. Your argument makes sense only if you view critique as a service to the audience rather than a contribution to the zeitgeist.
YO HE REUSED MY FAVORITE AD JOKE! The « he is the same » one
The original version of it is gone so I wanted to make sure people could still see it lol
@@noodlefunnywhat happens if this one becomes gone
@@bounceysteve We celebrate cause Noodle finally saw the irony in making a video about alienating viewers but not pointing out his own colossal fuckup during the whole BG3 controversy?
@@entropias_gonosobviously he didn't alienate ppl good enough cause you're still here
@@entropias_gonos bro watches one video and lets the internet people formulate his own opinions!
Words cannot describe how much I LOVE these old TV-style intermissions.
The very specific kind of humor in them tickle a few nondescript bones in my body which may or may not involve a rib, a finger and my whole hip
YEAH! It’s like a time capsule of a unspecified era. It adds a very unique flavour to his art and I think it’s delightful
It had me crying
I literally watched almost the entire Ally-x commercial thinking "wow he really put a lot of effort into making this fake gaming device for this bit, that's hilarious" before I realized it was a real sponsor.
I know that Egoraptors video was horribly worded for a regular online debate, I loved his passion. And I loved his conviction in the video. You don't see it anymore.
Agreed. There is a strange dichotomy between "let's try to have a conversation and not alienate anybody" and "Here's the truth and if you think otherwise here's why you're wrong!" Both things are good. One is healthy and one is fun....
I think I just re-discovered why our nation is so divided.
@@romankhamov6229enlightened centrism makes me wet
@@romankhamov6229 AMERICA 🦅🏈
Love you Noodle, but the title for this video is so misleading. Zooming in on one specific video and making it out to be the pinnacle and cause of toxic internet debate is obscuring a lot of context
"Even though everyone hated it, engagement had doubled" - Sun Tzu
This is Sun Tzu after four hours on X/Twitter
I'd get much more offended when Arin would do a let's play of a game I loved, suck at it, blame it on the game, and be like "See! Look how dog shit this game is!" I realize now that he was probably just playing it up to be funny.
Yeah, he's stated many times that the Grump personality is just that, a personality. Game Grumps as a whole, he said, was a good way for him to get a lot of his anger out that he bottles up in his day to day life. He's not concerned about being right, he's concerned about being mad and funny. Some people think it's funny, some don't, but it is a character at the end of the day.
This is really encapsulated perfectly in the ocarina of time playthrough, where Dan openly mocks Arin sucking at the game. Especially in the episode where Dan says “even I’m going to leave an angry comment on this video” and just commented “Arin sucks at video games” on the NSP account
You see, that's EXACTLY what he does with every single Sonic game he plays
He chooses the worst version available, plays like a toddler, and convinces everyone that its the game's fault
don't care if he was playing it up, fuck that shit, either actually play the game or don't and start a podcast or whatever. I fuckin hated watching game grumps cuz of that shit. why are you even playing a video game when that isn't even the focus 90% of the time, do literally anything else please!
"you are nitpicky and biased, I win, bye bye"
Sigh.
@@EloahAloha It's a Dunkey reference
I hate this meme
To me the troll guy at the beginning of the video is not necessarily an OoT fan but is more primarily a person closed off to any outside view. Those who act on instinct towards any perceived threat against the thing they hold dear. I think Arin just wants to call people to have an open mind and hear him out before writing a counter. If one encounters someone who holds preemptive hostility towards oneself, as is commonplace amidst the anonymity wasteland of the internet, I'd say it's only fair and natural to distance oneself from that person. Avoiding being represented in a video as a troll freak is as easy as choosing to not reply preemptively.
I disagree, if the video was structured to be more friendly then i would understand, but the video being so mean spitired makes it really hard to find the "decent middleground" that he begs you to understand, and if you disagree heavily then that would make you the caricature at the start.
@@Laura-zc6rm It seems you have trouble understanding basic facts.
@@aolson1111 i dont really see how being purposefully inflamatory in a series thats expected to be a more nuanced views on games, turning it into a nearly rant, makes for fair discussion.
If he wanted to create never ending discourse, a move that even egoraptor himself admits wasnt great, then he did a good job
When he makes the homunculus at the beginning, I think that was aimed at people who wanted to reject the video without watching not everyone who disagrees or his audience in general. That seemed pretty clear immediately to me, and a clear retort to that kind of closed-mindedness
Arin focused on how Oot was different than a open exploration with no linearity and just implies that everyone wants that type of zelda game. But there are plenty of people who enjoy the linear story telling, myself included. I also think that his critique was focused on a modern perspective to point out that it's not a perfect game through all forms of measurement. I think he failed to acknowledge that perspective, that the times have changed since Oot's release, and he failed to acknowledge that some people prefer different forms of story telling and pacing. For these reasons, it's not a good review like Noodle says.
However, someone has to point out where the kid who is playing Oot for the first time in the modern era is going to be disappointed. Otherwise they will just hear all the great things about the perfect game that doesn't meet every modern expectation. In that avenue I think Arin's video is valuable. I don't think Arin's video is a great review video with a balanced perspective, but it does provide a genuine contrarian opinion that will resonate with plenty of people who grew up in a different era of video games.
This
Totally, I've watched his content on Game Grumps before I watched that review & I think that gave me some more perspective on where he was coming from, basically, I know the kind of games & game design he likes & can pretty accurately form an expectation of a game based off his reactions.
Also it helps that both of us have adhd & thus have similar levels of patience with things haha (albeit my attention span isn't quite as bad as his.)
Running Shine’s OoT review also ends with a great section on how hyping it up as the greatest game of all time creates false expectations
How anyone looks at the homunculus as "every Zelda fan" is beyond me (unless it's basically a self-report), and I'd never even seen or heard of the original video before now. Arin even says it in the clips shown in this video.
Actually insane.
25:19 Says breath of the wild, Shows 3 clips from tears of the kingdom, what did he mean by this
That we are "Disgusting, deviant troll monsters".
@@ADFloyd what
@@onionrings5362as a long-time noodle fan, yea, that's been the tone of his videos recently. It's been much more noticeable since :Why games are getting bigger."
Edit: to make matters worse, IDK if those are mistakes or actual intentions, because both of these videos do cut to something else to steer the narrative.
It's cause they're the same game 😊 /j
Bro forgor
Something I think that's kinda ignored in this is how OoT was essentially this "flawless game" during the time period, and the amount of slander that was thrown to people who even dared to say anything even slightly negative to OoT. He was arguing against a majority of people who were ready to alienate anybody who even acknowledged their subjective differences. Trust me, as someone who's been a part of the Zelda fandom for as long as I've had internet, I've seen the fanbase at their worst. They were incredibly vicious and would die on any hill, regardless of how delicately you would phrase your arguments. Arin made the guy at the beginning not to represent anybody who liked Ocarina of Time, but instead, to parody the types of people who would ignore rational discussion and choose to bully any opposition to an opinion founded entirely on nostalgia (aka, Keyboard warriors).
I love Ocarina of Time, and I viewed his points as a criticism of his own exprience with the game, and his "slander" towards the aggressive vocal majority who were more than likely going to be writing up multiple essay-long and hate-filled comments. Even I was sick of the fanbase's blatant OoT favoritism, and it wasn't because I hated OoT, but because people were just so aggressive and hostile for no reason. The "I'm gonna get CRUCIFIED" line demonstrates this mentality going into the scripting process perfectly.
Even still though, Arin admits that he wishes he could rewrite the video to not isolate the people he unintentionally targeted. He regrets the impact he left. Personally? I still stand by the video, even if I disagree with a lot of his opinions. His video singlehandedly changed the Zelda fanbase and allowed for a lot of people who were too scared to share an opinion, to actually have the courage to have a voice. Now there's a lot more diversity in the fandom, a lot of people who sent actual death threats to Ninendo due to games like Wind Waker having a different art style would mellow out, and there has been much more open discussion about Zelda's game quality as a whole. Without Arin's video, we'd probably never have gotten BotW. Games like Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword were created because people just wanted more Ocarina of Time. But the fanbase just criticized those games as well. Without the audience like Arin speaking against the formula, Zelda probably would have stagnated into obscurity. But instead we got a revolution in game design, and even though I still like the OoT formula more than BotW/TotK's, I'm glad Arin finally got the games that would speak to him. And that Zelda gets to live on because of his influence
Really well said.
Nicely put!
This needs to be at the forefront of peoples minds.
I was there. And you hit the nail right on the head.
Good comment. I saw the guy at the beginning similar to the anti-vaxxers in hydrogenbomberman's vaccine video. A group of people that are not going to have their mind changed by the video. Not fans of OoT, that just like the game a lot. In Arin's case these hypothetical (but probably real) people already had their comments written before they watched the video. I do agree with Noodle that the ending bit, about how Arin didn't want to make anyone angry and how writing the comment after watching the video is fine, should have been at the beginning of the video.
agree with everything aside from Arin being the reason we have BotW (i know you don't mean it literally). At the time, even the fanbase was getting sick of the basic formula, hating Skyward Sword was not an unpopular opinion, and like Arin says in the video, LBW was nintendo opening up the fanbase to a shift in fomula and, eventually, another shift in soul. Nintendo had been slow cooking the idea of BotW for an amazingly large time to get it just right cause they knew that if they messed it up it could've been the biggest blemish on the series so far, if not the outright death.
Don't sacrifice your specific voice in the name of following standard advice for rhetorical persuasion.
IDK if I'm just stupid, but I feel like I just walked in on Noodle mid rant and missed the first 10% of context that would help me get why he is talking about this.
He went full tard cuz someone insulted his favorite game
Eaxctly like why tf are we critqueing a 10 year old video everyone else has already argued about...
I thought that Noodle was going to draw a line between this video as a somewhat mild example to what video game discussions have become, which is to say much worse. Instead he just stayed really mad at this one video, judging it as immature, and making solid but abstract points about how to empathize and persuade.
@@Cz4rBDV5e8w
Yeah, that’s what I was really hoping for. I almost wonder if he just doesn’t want to get harassed for talking about current RUclipsrs cause of what happened with the baldurs gate video
people have a hate boner for egoraptor, thats it really
I think the caricature of the fanboy doesn't hinder the video as much - because even though it's absurd and nobody would want to be portrayed as such, that's the point. That's what people who plug their ears and start typing stuff in the comments do. So Arin throws them out and says "Now that THAT guy's gone, let's critique what some people call the pinnacle of gaming (Insert spinning death puck OOPS!) ". Even brings him back in the credits and says "Now that you've watched the video, go ahead and say what you feel - you've listened to my piece."
I will now make a two hour response video titled "Noodle, Egoraptor, and the Death of Media Literacy: an Analysis on Ludonarrative Dissonance".
Edit: I think it should also be noted that the series is called "Sequelitis", and the notion that OoT's noteworthyness made a template that the franchise would follow (along with frustration towards that) was the basis for Arin's criticisms and vitriol towards the game. I think the fact that it took Nintendo almost two decades to shake up the formula that OoT established with BotW is a testament to why somebody like Arin would vent their frustrations about Zelda's (at the time) present day game design.
Again, I think if you believe the commenter is a stand-in for an average fan of the game - you are missing the point of that joke.
Foreshadowing is a ludonarrative device
I'm sorry, but it's still not very good at getting the point across. Arin spends a lot of the video bitching about stuff he doesn't like, which he's allowed to not like and it's valid and all, but he acts like everyone else in the world is equally as impatient when it comes to following a story along. A lot of his problems are very unique to his playing style, and he never acknowledges this or how much the series has indeed grown from OoT's problems.
Yeah good point. It was something meant to be fair not object hate or anything. I get that :)
@@thanatoast yea and no one argues that. his points are the problems WITH OoT not what it gave the games after. Also the fanboy skit was for people blindly without listening already saying "nuh huh". if you feel attacked by that, maybe you are part of it? cause i never felt like he ment me (a person who played it and loved) cause i am not like the person aron throws out the window.
I think some people forget that newgrounds exists and how wildly different the platform was from youtube back then, newgrounds is where a lot of my favorite people got their starts, but most of them arent really acceptable in most social circles these days
While I agree with your point about alienating your audience, I also sympathize with Aaron. That video came out when everyone was sucking off Ocarina, and I remember finding the video cathartic.
Maybe the video was more meant for people like me who didn't like the game, but couldn't articulate why
For me, this video was a rare Noodle miss.
Don't think it's particularly rare tbf
I KINDA agree with the central thesis of the video which is "don't be overly inflammatory to a disagreeing side if you want them to be receptive to your position..." but using the OOT Sequelitus video as an example is just weird lol. Like, at worst the jokes in that video are child's play compared to a lot of the pure vitriol coming out of gaming discussions nowadays. The joke in that video in particular where Ego throws an OOT fanboy out of a window is so over the top that I can see it either loosening people up out of the sheer ridiculousness of it, or angering the type of fanboy that never would have been receptive to the video in the first place.
If you've watched any of his previous Sequelitus videos, you'd know coming into the OOT video that he has a track record of doing stuff like this. It's why the spiel you go on at 20:46 is so fucking weird lol. Anybody with even a smidgeon of familiarity with Egoraptor knows he's not doing that kinda stuff out of malice. Then you said that OOT is one of the most beloved games of all time and critiquing it is an upward battle, and then you show the like/dislike ratio being far more on the favorable end which sorta shows that his approach loosened up a lot of people to hear him out lol.
And again, I think there is a HUGE problem in gaming discourse with this type of shit. But using that OOT video just ain't it. Hell, I'd even argue that people like Egoraptor understood something back then that a lot of people now don't think about often: "If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you."
Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head here, I feel a similar way.
It’s good, when making a review, to acknowledge that your opinion isn’t fact! But I can’t help but feel it’s a bit odd to use an example of someone who looks like they’re playing an eccentric character.
I feel like he’s avoiding talking about people in the modern sphere of gaming “discourse” because of how much he got harassed/brigaded by that one dude for his baldurs gate video.
And that was without even attacking that guy specifically.
I mean, he’s kinda just leapfrogging off of it for a discussion of his own opinion. The video isn’t really *about* the sequelitis vid.
Idk your point just boils down to "he was too mean when he talked even if his points were valid"
Like sure man super deep analysis. It's entertainment sometimes being rude is entertaining, simple as
Except Arin himself wasn't framing it as just entertaining. He was the one acting trying to create a honest conversation and convince people. But he did it terribly, to the point that people like you in these comments didn't even get that lmao
@@Cruxin Working overtime?
@@emulatorisland7417 what
@@Cruxin Lol no rewatch egoraptors video and read his title of his series. He is comparing what the previous series have done and how its changed. Don't believe that he was trying to convince die hard fans of OOT to now hate the game.
Don't you love watching a +30 minute video about another +30 minute videogame critique from ten years ago, in which someone was slightly rude to a videogame's ardent fanbase for comedic effect, which may have undermined their arguments to that part of their audience? It's just mindblowing stuff isn't it?
I love game grumps, I have for years, but I love it as a podcast not a gaming channel. Watching Arin fumble through a video game is frustrating at best but the chemistry of him and Dan, especially when they have a guest, is golden to me
Oh yeah, I don't think anyone's there for the gameplay lmao
Yeah that’s why my fave series they’ve done is the Katamari reroll. It’s literally just Arin and Dan talking about anything on their minds and it’s awesome.
Noodle, in 10 years I will make a 30 minute video essay on how you're wrong.
Do it
I'll start by saying this is in my opinion, though for future notice to anyone reading a RUclips comment, you should generally view anything someone is saying in a RUclips comment as an opinion since it's likely about something subjective.
This video is so weird because you constantly display the ability to understand that Arin is clearly just making a very opinionated video but refuse to accept the capacity that he might know that. I don't think he thought when making the video he was some game design guidebook; I think he just has strong opinions and a capacity to articulate them well, and ever since the Megaman sequelitis videos non-stop appraisal people have interpreted every sequelitis videos like they were education tools more than for entertainment opinion pieces. The tone is supposed to feel conversational, and the reason the video keeps you entertained is because he's not constantly backstepping, as he assumes you're starting off on normal human ground and not assuming the worst. He outright makes a character of someone assuming the worst at the start of the video knowing how people can get about a game that's such a corner stone of history. I don't think he was "wojacking" the Ocararina of time fans. I think the point was just to say, "Don't jump the gun on what I'm about to say."
Not every video is designed to appeal to the largest group of people possible, nor is every video meant to make every person who watches it happy. A part of having a strong opinion is that the more you isolate your ground, the more you will attract people to be angry at you. But your opinion simultaneously gains more value the less it bends in order to be more appealing. While this isn't always true, it certainly is for something as mundane as video game analysis.
Your video comes off as really self righteous and borderline arrogant at times. For example you do this bit where you essentially say "Which opinion are you more likely to listen to" to "guide" Arin through essay writing 101. Not only does it come off as strangely condescending but simultaneously you really overshoot your "wojacking" of him. *You* instead of letting the video which has plenty of moments of ranting that could of supported your point instead make a version of "what he's doing" that is 10 times more annoying on purpose to support your argument. But it doesn't support your argument because you aren't speaking broadly; you're speaking about a specific person's videos. Broadifying the language he uses develops a significantly more identifiable strawman that makes your side of the argument feel weaker.
Also the use of an hbomber guy video as an example for not being inflammatory or at the very least knowing the audience your speaking to is bizarre because you chose the video where he talks about vaccines. The reason he doesn't have to respect the potential opinion of anti-vaxxers is because vaccines are medicine. They are guarded by facts; an opinion about a game from ten years ago isn't. Games are a subjective medium privy to subjective opinions. It should practically be innate to understand any opinion piece about a game or movie or TV show or any form of art is subjective. Our opinions on art can only be defined by our experiences with the art. For example, I loved Undertale, but many of my friends don't. The reasoning why is they were so exposed to the fandom or peoples hype about the game or the extreme praise it was given before they actually played it. Is their opinion less valid because their experience with the form of media isn't pure enough? Who cares, their just my friends chatting. In the same connotation I believe that Arin's video is not trying to be a huge video essay where you're supposed to "come to his side". You even point out in Arins video random meandering rants about stuff like the blue bayou restaurant. Those rants fit into a friendly conversational flow. Their attempt to add to the art is to illustrate that what you are watching is not a Khan Academy video on game design, but a person "calling it as they see it" so to speak. Or putting something people have found hard to articulate into words.
By no means do I think the video is perfect; I'm not here to argue on the basis that it's even good. I just think this video is incredibly poor faith, and I don't like when videos in such poor faith have no one expressing anything but agreement with the person they already liked. I don't dislike you personally or your channel, and I don't love Arin Hanson. I say this preemptively because I don't want to be boxed into some catagory. I just really thought this was a bad video. That's all it is.
If anyone reads this in the aether and has something to say to modify maybe my understanding of this video I'm fine to read it; I'm not bothered by being challenged on this thought. I just felt like for a video expressing an opinion on a video it would be fair to express an opinion on a video.
THIS, this so much.
I wouldnt listen to the example better argument because I hate when people are disingenuous to their opinion on an opinion piece. While he was talking all I could think was "shut the fuck up and get to the point, stop sucking its dick".
Hbomberguy is also a funny comparison considering his fallout 3 video is an hour long version of the sequelitis OoT video
Damn, thats a lot of words, too bad I ain't reading em
@@amysel it's okay, I'm sure one day you'll learn how to read.
I agree with everything you said, down to the very last paragraph. I like Noodle, but this kinda felt like a bad faith video and I’m not sure I see the end goal.
Noodle I think you just have beef with a 10 year old egoraptor video
Noodle enjoyed the video, he just had thought about it and had empathy for the people who loathed it.
@@RashidMBey wish he said that then instead of isolating the fanbase that did enjoy the video
@@derp3044 He did not)?
@@MrDiana1706 the comments do have a small minority of people from that era that watched it then, and some did enjoy the video. Mind you, it IS a minority, but I did think it was a bit weird to go off on such a tangent about such an old video. Yes, there was lots to improve, but who knows about the guy now? If he said this stuff when the video came out, fair game, but to be so long after the fact? You can take any video from the start of peoples careers and belittle them...
@@derp3044 He isn't belitteling the video really, it's just a good example for the topic. The video never turned about controversy, it followed its title accordingly
I feel like Arin's bit about the "homunculus" at the beginning isn't as bad as you're making it out to be. I don't think it was a jab at all OoT fans, but a plea to the sub-set of blindly loyal fans that would criticize him before even hearing him out. It feels like the only people that would be offended by that are those who were already feeling defensive that someone was criticizing their "favorite" game. (other than that I think you had a lot of great points!)
I was gonna comment this! The "strawman" isn't really a strawman, it's pointing to the type of viewer who doesn't watch the video before commenting
The ending portion for the homunculus is perfect!
It would have felt less insulting if he had asked me before using my image.
yeah this id!ot wants to lecture us on "discourse" and "nuance" and is not only a RAGING hypocrite but also doesnt even have the balls to respond to ANY legit criticism of himself either. 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄
this guy's a total @sshole. but unlike most @ssholes he thinks he's above other @ssholes and that he has the right to wag his finger at the rest of us.
While I agree that the homunculus bit probably wasn’t *as* hurtful as the video made it seem, I also think that a large percentage of viewers did lean toward the “already feeling defensive” camp. I think that was more of the point Noodle was trying to make- since a large portion of the audience is going to get at least a little defensive, starting out by spitting on a hyperbolized version of them probably didn’t do Arin many favors. (I respect your opinion and also liked the video a lot)
@@flyntrontompkins9381 this, its not that the one bit was absoultey unforgivable it's that he starts ridiculously uncharitably and never changes that
As someone who 1) likes OoT, 2) likes the Sequelitis vid, and 3) has been a longtime viewer since your mentioned FPS vid and the Cyberpunk crunch vid, I think the argument you make in this video is the most ironic thing you could've made in response to a 10-year old video. Like you said at 30:44 "If you want to have a conversation with other human beings, you HAVE to think about how you come across in that current conversation." It's not that you can't critique old media, it's that you manage to decry the video for being an 10:35 "unhinged venomous rant" while also talking in hyperbolic ways like 24:35 "THIS DRIVES ME FUCKING INSANE," and blowing up some negative comments to be "the bomb that KILLED Sequelitis," when also admitting that the video was mostly well received and that you agree with almost all the points Arin makes (and also as if Arin didn't just get tired making animations which is really why he stopped making Sequelitis). For a video title that attempts to deemphasize the "(and how not to)..." part, you spend an exorbitant amount of time being angry at a video you don't like, with your example sections being minimal, including people who just structure their videos differently than Sequelitis did, not necessarily "better." The video really reads as someone who identifies with the strawman joke character and has been salty about it for a decade, rather than a measured response to a piece of media you think hasn't aged well, which once again ironically pitches you up as the 'unhinged' guy who has spent a whole decade with a reoccurring nitpick about how someone was 'mean and alienated people with a joke' or 'didn't use enough "I" statements."
Also, to laser focus in on the strawman joke since that seems to be a returning point in this video; as a fellow Hbomb fan who literally pointed out how his Vaccines video wasn't made for anti-vaxers who are too ingrained in their beliefs, I'm surprised how the notion that the joke may haps purposely sent away people who WON'T listen to criticism flew right over your head. Like in Hbomb's War on Christmas video where he references the paper about Nigerian email scams, I feel like that bit was supposed to weed out people who would get angered by such a joke as to allow for better discussion about Arin's points. To quote a perhaps mean but salient comment I saw under this video "If you identify with the guy who gets thrown out the window, you are the problem."
Also also, this is nitpicky, but I remember a while back Arin specifically responded in a Game Grumps episode to this weird trend of RUclips recommending literally his first video ever where he reviews Gunpey and says the R-slur amidst criticizing the game; Arin was really bothered by this weird algorithm boost of that video because he doesn't use that word anymore and said he's grown as a person. He's even gotten involved in weird internet beefs with former friends because he's spoke out on the use of outdated and harmful vocabulary. Once again, it's one thing to criticize old media that hasn't aged well, but it's another thing to make that a point to discredit the video when the dude has publicly expressed that he no longer condones that behavior. It comes off like a disingenuous low blow for the sake of a joke that amounts to "wow, cringe."
Sooooo true
While I think you brought up good points, I don't think that the 'weeding people out' argument invalidates the criticism of Arin's approach. Even if his goal was to weed people out, creating this strawman of the opposition and proceeding to attack it is generally a bad idea. It's a harmful generalization that paints anyone who liked OoT in a negative light. This shuns not just hardcore fans, but also those who might have been on the fence or those watching for entertainment or out of curiosity. The assumption that viewers who felt alienated by the joke simply "weren't open to criticism" is purely speculative and ignores the fact that many fans would have been willing to engage in a reasonable debate. Arin's attitude felt hostile from the start. In addition to that, saying "If you identify with the guy who gets thrown out the window, you are the problem" reinforces this toxic mindset. It implies that if you disagree with Arin or feel unfairly represented by his strawman, you're instantly part of the problem, which shuts down any opportunity for a productive conversation. this attitude encourages exclusion and dismissal undercutting the potential for critique while alienating viewers who might have otherwise been open to a discussion. Dismissing anyone who identifies with the character discourages viewers from engaging critically, creating an atmosphere where disagreement is vilified rather than addressed. (Especially when the character is so widely encompassing of everyone and anyone who liked OoT)
Furthermore, while it's true that Arin has publicly distanced himself from the harmful language used in his earlier content, that doesn't absolve the original video from critique. deflecting this criticism by focusing on Arin's personal growth, fails to address how this critique is about the specific tones and arguments that were counterproductive even during the time. Arin's outdated language and argumentative strategies, such as the strawman joke, still hold relevance when analyzing the impact of his video. Calling out these issues isn't a "low blow" it's an observation about how media critique and public discourse have evolved over time and it remains important to see how these elements haven't aged well. Simply acknowledging that Arin has changed doesn't invalidate the critique of his past work, especially when that work continues to be influential.
@@tristanpizza8646 Firstly, thanks for responding! No jokes, this was definitely a specific thing for me to hyperfixate and write a mini essay on, so I appreciate the engagement with each of my points. My issue isn’t with the idea that “you shouldn’t attack or alienate your audience when trying to have a discussion,” nor do I think accounting for Arin’s older, edgier jokes should take away from such an argument. My issue is that, in trying to explain how hyperbolic, angry ranting, and mischaracterization of others can detract from the true effect and reach of a critique, Noodle engages in just that: he fixates on the “overly negative” tone set by the review as if it was different than the other Sequelitis videos, despite the only real difference being the length of the video (and therefore an increase in negative assessments in LoZ) and that immediate depiction of a strawman. Again, the fact that Noodle keeps returning to that strawman as the basis of why the video doesn’t succeed in its goals, to me, says a lot about how that bit particularly annoyed him and has lodged itself in his head as a brain worm. This is doubly true because, again, this Sequelitis video wasn’t extremely different than the others, other than it’s length, which again is padded with more jokes or bits about Arin - the man famous for his “Game Grumps” channel - expressing a hyperbolic frustration at games he didn’t particularly like. Those rants come from a genuine place, for sure, but that’s the character he built up for himself online. That’s also why I mentioned comparing him to other RUclipsrs is missing the point. It’d be like giving Breath of the Wild a 0/10 because 'it’s an open world game and you HATE open world games'; you can like Nakey Jakey or Hbomb MORE as creators, but you can’t really say Arin’s part comedy/part informative, angry video game rant is “bad” if it’s just content you don’t grok with. You can argue that it didn’t age well that’s fine, but calling the angry gamer’s angry game review bad because it’s angry, makes a strawman joke, and doesn't use enough "I" statements is a miss.
Additionally, and once again, I agree that mischaracterizing your potential audience, let alone opposition, is a bad habit of media analysis and conjures muddy waters. But the strawman isn’t depicting just “anyone who liked OoT,” and I wholeheartedly disagree that "the character is so widely encompassing of everyone and anyone who liked OoT." I mentioned it, but I LOVED OoT when I played it as a kid, and only recognized a lot of its contrivances after the Sequelitis video, which was AFTER I had already finished the game 2-3 times over. Hell, I just played the game AGAIN recently with a friend when it released on the Switch Online emulators - it’s still a great game even with all its annoyances and flaws. I wasn’t bothered by the strawman bit at all, and, as Noodle himself shows in his video, the likes dictate most people weren’t bothered by it either. If you watch the Sequelitis vid, the strawman talks in hyperbolic ways: “I’m just writing my preemptive counter argument about how you’re WRONG about my FAVORITE game of ALL TIME, and the BEST GAME EVER.” It’s clear this guy is a very specific kind of OoT fan, not just one who liked the game or even one that thought it was great. I wasn't 'speculating' that some specific people were alienated by the joke, it should be more than easy for the average person to separate themselves from the joke. The fan is someone who refuses to listen to Arin’s words and is supposed to be a joke at those specific people who’s brains DO turn off the second they perceive a negative take incoming. The strawman literally cuts off Arin as he's saying "isn't it time we gave it a FAIR analysis?" It also happens so early in the video that you don’t even really know what Arin is gonna say, so it really just reads as a joke at like forum neckbeards or trolls or other extremely defensive, angry video game nerds. I’ll admit that the quote about “identifying with the guy…” was harsh and could’ve been phrased in a less toxic way, but, fresh after finishing Noodle’s video, it definitely rung true. Again it’s one thing to criticize how badly media has aged, but it’s another thing to state the reasons that media has aged badly while actively engaging in the VERY SAME behaviors.
That's the real catch: where Arin's whole schtick is being grumpy about games, Noodle, though he can get riled up in a funny way too, ends up coming off MORE grumpy and angry than Arin. That’s why I said the video is ironic, BECAUSE Noodle does the very things he decries: he's largely ranting about something he dislikes rather than creating a point of discussion, and the part where he DOES show 'better' examples are just videos made in a different era and, honestly, kinda different genres of the internet. And not only does Noodle prove the strawman right by immediately misinterpreting its meaning or, idk, the fact that it's a JOKE, but he also shoe horns in how the videos haven't aged well because of jokes Arin made in, again, a different era of the internet that he's shown to be remorseful of, without even MENTIONING Arin's current thoughts or opinions as a person. There's a very real possibility that someone could watch this video and walk away hating this random dude for something he's already gotten over because Noodle doesn't even take a SECOND to characterize Arin beyond his Sequelitis years. In this way, Noodle poses himself more as someone who’s latched onto a misinterpreted and perhaps honest depiction of an angry video game nerd in a critique he disagreed with, than someone who’s trying to make a salient criticism. To me, the proof of this is in the multiple screenshots Noodle has of old forums and comments, one of which he even liked, expressing hate for the review. The way Noodle comes off in the first minutes of the video, let alone the arduous 30 minute experience, is as someone who was fine with the funny angry game critique videos when they were about games he didn't have strong feelings for, right up until it trashed his favorite franchise. Then, after engaging in the internet pits with people who were also incensed by this guy saying “hey maybe Zelda isn’t as good as you remember it,” decided that he’s gonna get angry about the whole thing AGAIN a DECADE LATER because he has a nagging obsession with the video.
All in all, even if I disagree, thanks for taking the time to respond! I can't really express over youtube comments how genuine and validated I feel by your interaction, but once more, thanks buddy.
@@ethanwilliams8103I largely agree with your points about Arins video and oot but I’ll disagree on how noodle portrayed. I honestly understand where Noodle is coming from and his point with the video since it’s honestly not just Arin and Sequelitis itself, but the bigger culture around video game critique that came after it. I don’t think Arin is the person to blame but he kinda became a part of a bigger issue at that time. Noodle even pointed out he personally isn’t even a huge fan of oot
One personal critique I have about Sequelitis and honestly Game Grumps in general is that it kinda falls into the “Cinemasins” style of critique. Like yeah he’s exaggerating and probably is overselling some of his points, but he also mixes in critique and that gets hella muddled. It’s this weird style of video that I always feel gives people the wrong impression about whatever the person
Is critiquing.
For me personally, I feel someone like Somecallmejohnny ended up making a Zelda video that just aged better.
@@luiszapata3897 Thanks for responding! I can appreciate not liking Game Grumps-esqe media analysis, and I agree with your point that Sequelitis was just a small part of a larger culture that had troubles expressing critiques in non-inflammatory or expressive ways. There's a great comment on this video somewhere that says something along the lines of 'I think this is more just a difference in era of internet culture,' citing how interaction online was way more intimate and perhaps emotional, which makes sense in the prime era of counter culture. I personally relate to this culture a lot as I get very passionate when arguing with my friends and family about media or even politics, but we all understand that we're not actually angry or so polarized on such topics. It's just a generational difference, which is something you're allowed to evaluate on how well or not it's aged. But to say that it's outright bad, and the essence of unhealthy toxic gamer interaction, I think is a huge miss cause it's just a different form of review. I said it earlier this chain: it's one thing to agree more with Nakey Jakey or Hbomb because they're more mild mannered than Arin, but it's another thing to say that Arin is right out toxic and bad cause of his video. It also super doesn't help that Noodle is mischaracterizing Arin here. Like you said, he's one person from a larger culture and was a dime a dozen of people like AVGN, Angry Joe, etc. Comedic, angry game reviews were and still are a whole genre on youtube, and to paint Arin as a 'Venemous Ranter,' is not only missing the comedic, almost satirical character Arin is playing, but is also making it more serious than he's trying to be while inadvertently being toxic in its own right. It seems that Noodle is known to do this; I wanted to give him a more fair try, so I watched his 'Video Games are too Big' video. Though it seemed alright to begin with, the comments are very quick to point out how Noodle misrepresents someone by purposely clipping and cutting footage to portray that person wildly outa context, to then make his own assertions on the topic. Noodle has a good point to make about alienating your potential audience, but it's completely lost when it's based on a style of comedy game review you just don't vibe with as much (while also making it out to be the festering wound of game criticism too), and also refuse to characterize Arin as a person who's grown since then, to only make him out as his literal rant-sona. And since this seems to be a pattern of behavior, Noodle's dishonesty or, ironically, strawmaning of other people out of context makes it harder to appreciate his points as well as his value as a creator on the internet.
Part of me agrees that the response was predictable and avoidable but the rest of me is saying that just because you can predict people on the internet getting incredibly angry and defensive when someone criticizes something they like doesn't mean that they're in the right. Just because a reaction is predictable doesn't make it reasonable.
Like sure he could have avoided a lot of conflict and made his video more palatable to internet comment section whiners but why compromise his voice to do that. What obligation does he have to avoid conflict.
Ocarina of time is one of my favorite games ever and the opening theme almost makes me cry a bit every time I hear it. Despite this, I loved Erin's sequelitis video on the game and have watched it numerous times despite my disagreements because he's just some dude on the internet and his opinions about things I like don't have anything to do with me. Cope. Seethe. Etc.
Him deviating from or giving caveats to the points he's very passionate/angry about is part of what he claims he's trying to do in the video. He's choosing to frame it as a persuasive essay and not just expression, and part of any persuasive essay is changing your presentation depending on the audience.
the argument was less about 'avoid conflict' and more 'if you make a persuasive video targeted at an audience, you shouldn't prime that audience to reject the video.'
Last week I had to deal with a furious mob in a silly, viralised vid where I put shit on NFSU1. I really love and cherish my memories with that game, but some stuff has aged like milk and I was just ranting about that. And I just don't care about their rage at me, it was what I wanted to say and don't really care that they can't even think about their childhood game not being perfect.
@@TeleportRush Precisely. He even mentions this when explaining how the Vaccines: A Measured Response video doesn't position itself gently towards anti-vaxxers because he knows they'll never watch the video.
So my interpretation of this video - a video about your interpretation of Arin's video - is "Arin has good points but I don't like his delivery/dated humor so that makes it nitpicking and biased. I win. Bye-bye."
You make a point to call out how he shows OoT players (which wasn't a generalization of all OoT fans, just the toxic ones who can't handle criticism) to be obnoxious only to be obnoxious himself. While you aren't wrong about your points in a vacuum, this is Arin's comedy style. Yeah it's cringey 2000s newgrounds humor, but that's how he got started and what his fans have come to expect.
It seems to me (and I'm probably misinterpreting here) that you have a lot of respect for Arin's views on the subject, but bc he presented it a way you feel is inadequate you feel that it is bad and made a ~30 minute essay video to share it.
People are allowed to have bad takes or disagreeing opinions, and we should address/call out incorrect or problematic ones. But I don't think that Arin's video qualifies for that based on what you present here
The funny thing is, I felt his rant about all the waiting was one of the strongest arguments he made while I was watching it because it was just a litany of examples (also because, yeah, I can't play Animal Crossing because of all the waiting, and yes I know it's intentional, and no that doesn't make it less frustrating to me)
Okay but is that bad game design or do you just not like it? Because the success and enjoyment many others get out of waiting and what it can offer to the meaning of the experience seems to indicate it was good game design that paid off in spades. The issue is when the criticism goes from "this didn't work for me for XYZ reasons" to "this thing is objectively of poor quality or standards." Not every game is for everyone and it's always been unfair to hold a sequel to the impossible standards of matching the wonder one felt from the things they enjoyed in their youth. If you come at the Zelda series from a more modern perspective not having nostalgia for the very oldest titles, the completely unintuitive nonsense of the original game and a number of its 2D sequels feel dated, impenetrable, and ultimately end up providing the same problem for the people who didn't experience that issue negatively with OoT: wasting time. We all waste time but we all enjoy wasting time in different ways.
@@kylegonewild whether it's good or bad I guarantee it's intentional. At least in the case of Animal Crossing they didn't want you to binge the game, but even Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom have the same level of hurry up and wait for animations to complete, it just does everything else better because we know how to make better games today.
I say it's one of the stronger arguments because it's undeniable the game does that, though in critique, he doesn't -do- anything with the argument beyond express frustration with it. Still, it's the kind of argument I find convincing
@@kylegonewild What are you talking about. A piece of art can't be objectively good or bad. Even if you judge a movie by its pacing and framing and composition and sound design, you're still using a subjective metric.
By default, we know that everything Egoraptor says in his video is his opinion. Because that's how opinions work. The words "good" and "bad" in reference to a piece of art signal that it's an opinion. If the listener thinks he's saying something is objectively bad, that's on the listener for not understanding basic grammar.
What would "OoT is objectively bad" even mean? That every single human, even the ones that existed in the past and that will exist in the future, will enjoy the game? Even if that was possible (which it's not), how would anyone get that info? They did a worldwide survey and then sent it through a time machine?
The video also ignores the part where arin praises OoT for the enemies that can only attack by making yourself vunerable and how waiting easily gives the illusion of difficulty. That wasn't arin just shitting on the game that was him building to the strongest point he had.
@@D31taF0rc3 22:04 addresses this directly, as does the chapter as a whole.
This a C- essay about a B+ essay and I feel less informed than ever
He literally says pre-emptively, as in the strawman is writing an inflammatory rebuttal before watching and considering Arin's criticisms. All of your criticisms of the video are valid, and you're making them AFTER watching the video, i.e. not pre-emptively. Why would you think you are personally being called out/represented by the troglodyte at the beginning? I don't get it
This video really comes off as noodle getting upset because he related too much to the first depiction and then stopped actually listening to the rest of the video
Its been so long now and he has mentioned that he would absolutely have done things differently. I think this was just before everyone was familiar with Arins unique brand of humor. He employs hyperbole and humor that feels directed but unless you are familiar with their work, you should know he only does that as fact a form of self deprecating humor. He insults people who act outrageous with their opinions online because he is doing exactly that, and knows that would be him if he were on the other side. He is aware of his position, aware that there is a toxic portion of the fanbase, and aware that like himself they are passionate about something so much that a heated argument is likley to happen. Been a fan of them for years and this is just their style and humor. I agree it doesnt land with most but i doubt they were trying to cater to a broad audience back then because they have yet to now. They do trends like years late and never cave to public opinion on their show because they, like the rest of the fanbase know everything is satire FULL of hyperbole(insert subway bit here). They know their fan base and do the things they do and make the jokes they make because they know THEIR audience will get the irony and not take things litteraly or to heart. Watching this now just feels like an early less developed form of the humor we enjoy on the channel today!
Can't wait for 10 years from now for another RUclipsr to analyze this video.
why?
this vid is one of HUNDREDS of vids talking about sequelitis and it says NOTHING original, thoughtful, or novel.
just the same old self indulgent arrogant hypocracy he's complaining about....
just like almost every other vid about sequelitis.
but maybe itll be an example of a guy publicly smelling his own farts while trying to spray the rest of us with fart-scented deoderant. 🙄🙄🙄
Time for my entitled post-emptive counterargument: I found this video pretty unpersuasive. One issue is that the title is misleading - it's broad, and implies this will be a larger discussion about video game critique. But then you realize this is just a response video to _one_ critique, Egoraptor's Zelda Sequelitis video. When the topic is so specific, yet the title so broad, it primed me to expect the wrong thing going in, and I found myself surprised and confused when halfway through, we were still talking about Egoraptor. Some examples of other videos from some such as NakeyJakey and Hbomberguy are tacked on near the end, and feel out of place. A little too late to start scratching the surface of the larger idea of video game critique 26 minutes in. This is most certainly a "this video bad" video.
The main criticisms of Egoraptor, I also found a little weak. The main harping point is the inclusion of the RUclips commenter strawman in the video and the lines about the video not being received well. I understand the point, but eventually I was just like, "Okay, like, I get it, strawmans are bad, talking down to your audience is bad, I get it, can we get to the next point?" Now, the idea of RUclipsrs _expecting_ hate over hot takes and such, and even making jokes about it, was actually pretty common at the time period of the video. This was the era of "flame shields," "that's just my opinion, if you have your own opinion, that's FINE," and troll culture, and the caricature of the Ocarina of Time keyboard warrior was clearly a product of that. There was a chance to launch off of that and discuss the concept in further detail in other videos from the time and further explore the issue with talking down to your audience by singling out hypothetical haters, but that didn't happen. Instead Mr. Noodle makes it seem like this strawman example is unique to this particular video, hence furthering my attitude that this whole shabang is really all about one singular video and not the larger space of gaming criticism.
Noodle does not present himself as unbiased or objective, either. He makes it very clear he is a huge fan of The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, and felt PERSONALLY slighted by the sight of the keyboard Zelda warrior strawman, like, it ain't even subtle. That's why he takes issue with Egoraptor "putting words in his viewer's mouths" when he says his subjective opinion with full confidence. "(I don't get lost. I don't mind the waiting. I'm patient. It's you who sucks.)" Thinks Noodle, as implied by his responses. And so the video doesn't read as very genuine, looking less at the specific criticisms made and more on how Egoraptor "comes across," which makes this essay's foundation feel shaky, like he doesn't have much to actually work with because it's driven by emotion and not evidence or logic. That's why the strawman is brought up over and over again as if the video would be fine if that one thing simply weren't there.
(14:53 & 16:10) I don't agree with the point that Egoraptor should soften his language and use the first person as opposed to the second person when describing his experience. First of all, the entire video uses second person when explaining the gameplay to place the viewer in his shoes. That's how you make it persuasive. If he uses first person instead, then he's not attempting to sway you, he's just telling you things that happened to him, lessening the impact he's trying to make. I don't even need to put it into words, compare the versions of Egoraptor and Noodle delivering the assertive and passive versions of the lines side by side and hear how much oomph is lost in the latter.
Also, Noodle completely ignores the mean words Egoraptor had to say about Skyward Sword, which I find unforgivable.
scott the woz made a similar joke as well, where he depicts "square enix fans" as being shot. does that mean he wants me dead?
watch out he has the nuclear launch codes to your house
Scott the Woz does want you dead. That’s not why, though.
Idk man I’ve been dead for a while now. You might be next.
I always thought that was a weird metaphor to how the Pixel Remasters were being released on platforms that already had most of them. And how Squeenix were basically shooting their fans... again.
yes.
This feels like a massive misread of the beginning joke. It clearly wasn't about OoT fans, it was directed towards people who heard him say he'll be critical of OoT and immediately decided they hate the whole video within the first like 30 seconds. Honestly it seems like you just have an aversion to mean spiritedness, and that's fine but I don't feel like that's universal criticism. I mean I wasn't a huge fan of your soft touch this whole video, it felt condescending to me, but that's just the vibe I got from a style someone else might read as more comfortable or personable. Every video will turn off someone, this just turned off you.
Yeah, for real. The whole spring board of this video is just a blatant misunderstanding or purposeful wrong reading
a common misunderstanding must be accounted for, this is why people will put some text on screen or an interjection to clarify
whats obvious to some is invisible to others
Your Skyrim example illustrated something to me that may run counter to your suggestion that the people should be "given something."
At least to me, "B" sounds like an earnest and genuine response erupting from you. "A" sounds like a layer of secondary processing that curtails the essence of what you feel in an attempt at diplomacy. "B" compelled me, while "A" remained tame, and easy to disconnect from.
"A" didn't help me relate or understand your point of view any more than "B" did. Everything one says is always one's point of view, even if they express it as if it were objective. I think it is on the viewer to understand this. "B" immediately slams your feelings onto the table, revealing to me an intensity that *has* to come from an earnest point of view, and compelling me to listen because I now need to understand why this reaction exists.
The way I see it, your "B" is his Waiting Rant. It bursts down the door and breaks everything. It's fantastic.
I also very much like the time Ocarina of Time takes with things. I called it "the slow Zelda" as a kid, especially after I got Majora's Mask later.
I should be able to allow my point of view to coexist with yours, no matter how contradictory, with absolutely no further requirement from your part, because this is your video.
It is of no importance to me whether you understand my point of view, I've come here to listen to yours.
But the homunculus isn't.
The homunculus seems to me to represent a very real type of viewer who comes in immediately on the defensive, already conjuring arguments without listening. If a viewer who disagrees with the speaker on any level assumes themselves to be the homunculus depicted, that is 100% on said viewer. They have filled themselves with straw and stood in the corn field of their own volition. They have decided that they won't be convinced, and no amount of diplomacy will solve that. It ultimately doesn't matter what depicting the homunculus comes across.
You may ask "Why immediately antagonize them?" Well, why not? Any intelligent viewer wouldn't stop at the "lizard brain," right? So why coddle the audience?
Why preface an opinion with conciliatory caveats? What is the video about? What the viewers think, or what the speaker thinks?
Also, the "olive branch" you talk about isn't an olive branch, it's a carrot on a stick. The music, the atmosphere, the art direction, none of that has anything to do with the topic of the video, because none of it leads to the conclusion. All of those things would have been hollow enticement, and frankly a bit condescending.
The optics of said "olive branch" would come across to me as detrimental to the point, not conciliatory.
Regardless, these are styles. Your style now, and his style then.
I like both, but I especially like when you do not sugarcoat what you believe. "Fuck it, we ball" is great.
Speak your mind and nothing more. The people spoil easy on niceties.
I feel both videos, Arin and Noodles, are products of their time. Great comment!
Dude, very well put. I couldn't really put into words why I disagreed with Noodle on this one, but you did it very well. RUclips isn't a place for thoughtful discourse, especially 10 years ago. It is a place for entertainment and emotion. Watching a video about a guy tactfully trying to navigate all sides of the argument doesn't sound nearly as entertaining as a guy passionately ripping this beloved game to shreds. Perhaps I'm biased because I agree with Arin about OoT. But I feel like that if I did like OoT, I would be mature enough to still enjoy Arin's entertaining video. I wouldn't have seen myself as the homunculus, and therefore wouldn't have felt antagonized or insulted. No one should have to waste time in an attempt to appease the homunculus. They're the third party in every argument that contributes nothing.
I disagree, I understand what you mean by speaking your feelings, but I don’t think showing common decency and respect to your audience is coddling them. It’s just being a human being.
Me personally, I can’t really relate to example B because I find the attitude to be very obnoxious and overly negative. I don’t take anything away from it in terms of unique perspective I could learn from, not really. The only thing it tells me is that this person is not very pleasant and I wouldn’t want to talk to them for very long. Example A I can relate to a lot more because this person is just being honest, even if I may not agree with them.
But maybe this is just a case of how not everybody’s going to see eye to eye and how some people will react differently to how you talk to them. I don’t think someone being uncomfortable with being antagonized is wrong. The same way I don’t think it’s wrong that people relate to that kind of blunt wording. I am not one of those people sadly. There might’ve been a point in time where I was, but as I’ve gotten older, I’ve grown to cringe the overly negative and cynical mindset a lot of people have when reviewing media and I just want to hear someone speak honestly without being a dick about it.
I love oot, and I thought it was obvious that character wasn't a portrayal of me right from the start.
It's meant to depict people who get immediately defensive when dealing with any sort of criticism, particularly when it comes to oot, since that's what the video is criticizing. I thought that was obvious from the word go.
This video is pretty preachy about an old video 🥱
Peppering your videos with “I think” or “in my opinion” in a persuasive essay makes it weaker. Any English professor would back me up on that. Spending your introduction alternating between talking up the thing you’re going to be criticizing and reframing your criticism in this mealy-mouthed way that also focused on centering the high status of what you’re critiquing waters it down even more.
This video is a long-winded way of saying ”These people aren’t good listeners, and that’s your fault as the speaker.” It’s time to hold audiences responsible for being outrage-addicts that can’t control themselves instead of creators. This isn’t Egoraptor’s fault or his responsibility.
Asshole-proofing your work makes it weaker and it doesn’t actually stop assholes. Assholes just like to say that they wouldn’t have been mad if only the creator had expressed their opinion in X Y Z way, even as they trash the opinion itself constantly. It’s bait.
"It’s time to hold audiences responsible for being outrage-addicts that can’t control themselves instead of creators. This isn’t Egoraptor’s fault or his responsibility." Massive agree with this.
At the start of noodle's video he shows how the culture around discussing games is dogshit now and filled to the brim with unnecessary outrage just for the sake of it, which it is, but dissecting Egoraptor's OoT sequilitis as an example as if that was the root cause of why discussions suck now.. I don't think Egoraptor making his video nicer to gamers would've made a difference on the culture of today, and it would've made for a worse watch.
I get noodle's point of "who is the video for except fans of the game? if so, why disrespect them?" which makes the back and forth of this discussion interesting to me, but like you said, I don't really feel like it is/was Egoraptor's responsibility to word his video slightly nicer to prevent outrage, and the people that did get outraged were most likely going to be outraged anyway.
noodle frames this as "there are better ways to get your point across to your audience" but what if Egoraptor wasn't trying to get a point across? What if he just wanted to make an opinion piece about his experience playing a game that everyone enjoys in comparison to the games that came before it? How is the subsequent reaction his fault?
@@kagsbd5071 See, I don't get the whole "who is this video for except fans of the game?" thing. Ocarina of Time is the highest-rated game of all time. It's an omnipresent figure in the culture. Even so, most people aren't hardcore fans. It's like Citizen Kane. It's appreciated and acknowledged to have a high level of quality, but there's not the same level of emotional investment in it from the audience. It makes sense to re-examine such an influential game while expecting that his audience has enough distance from their experience with Ocarina of Time that they'd be receptive to that. And mocking hyper-defensive fans shouldn't turn off everyone in the audience, because I think that Egoraptor expected nearly all of his audience to like Ocarina of Time.
The culture around discussing games is terrible, but Sequelitis was never a part of that. The worst forms of toxicity are defensive, at least to me, whether you're talking about people complaining about IGN review scores or fucking Gamergate. Noodle wants creators to cater to those sorts of people without realizing that we have, and that's WHY things are the way that they are.
@@Bashfluff this right here is the absolutely best breakdown of this video. I think "mealy mouth" also is a crazy accurate description of modern noodle in general. All of his videos have devolved into this utter nonsense arguing style about why he's right and you're wrong, but he does it in a wall that undermines himself because he's constantly throwing in "i think" and "my opinion is" to protect himself from criticism. It's so that he can go on Twitter later when this video gets dumped on and said that it was just his opinion and that he was getting attacked for just having an opinion.
I guarantee you this video having a very poor reaction will be blamed on "Gamers" because that's his personal bogeyman. He'll likely double down because he doesn't know how to back off and look at his own opinions critically.
I feel like you took the thoughts out of my head and wrote them down for me. I think Joseph Anderson made a very similar point about not saying "I think"
@@kagsbd5071srsly, if i wanna point the root of what caused videogame discussions to suck now would be Gamergate, not Egoraptor.
"Why minecraft peaceful mode is terrifying" "why mario is actually about deep philosophical topics and how mario odyssey is related to Crimes and punishment" "why the Y is the most unique game about X" and all of them are like 2 hours long
Peak
spongebob rollercoaster gif
there are black holes
And each video starts with a casette tape insert sound effect
minecraft peaceful mode is shit. i wonder how a hardcore or speedrun of peaceful mode would look like
Is he never gonna get a new house? He’s just live like a caveman until everything’s just dust
it's got style it doesn't need a redo
@@poleve5409 the feng shui is excellent.
Arin does not criticize all ocarina fans. he criticizes all ocarina fans who were ready to *preemptively rip on him* without even knowing what argument they were disagreeing with. These people in fact do deserve to be depicted as what would later be known as the "soy wojak".
Yes that’s true. But is that worth enabling when you could simply attempt to convince the few wojaks that are listening that there is a chance that he has a point?
My take is people find that so upsetting, because it accurately describes most "gamers". Not people who play video games but "gamers"
Wow I did not like this video, and honestly I'm having a hard time nailing down why. But I think it comes down to: Why does sequalitis need to be a persuasive essay? Why is it bad to just rant or voice your frustrations with a game, or a franchise, or a fanbase? And why is Noodle upset enough for a 30 minute breakdown about either of those things? Usually I'm really on board for your videos, but this one felt like kind of a reach.
This doesn’t really feel like that big of a deal, I mean it doesn’t seem like he meant for it to be aggressive? Seems more like a joke about how some people comment super aggressively. Idk it was also 10 years ago, maybe his opinion is different now?
I love OoT and i love the Zelda sequelitis. Everyone I know who likes OoT, ALSO likes the Zelda sequelitis. Where are all these supposed people who are upset at a comedy internet video??
I don't understand why we're treating it like academia. It's from the pov of a raging gamer living in a world where people are showering one game with unending praise, and he wants to tear it down.
The Zelda vid is funny, it's entertaining, and this whole thing is just not that serious
I'm sorry, but I'm afraid you and your friends have been in a echo chamber all this time. The Zelda sequilitis video was a controversial one from day one, and it's infamous inside game critique circles.
Why people treat it like academia, you ask? Because his previous sequilitis videos were academia-like. Sure, there was over the top humor, but his points were 100% serious. You can't do that, then do what he did in the Zelda sequilitis video, and defend yourself with "hey, it's all a joke!" defense. Because if we are not supposed to take you seriously now, then it means we weren't supposed to take you seriously with your "Castlevania" and "Mega Man" videos either.
Your can't have it both ways.
@@XanderVJ "You...have been in a echo chamber" Next sentence: "it's infamous inside game critique circles" Literally describing your own echo chamber.
"His points were 100% serious" That's just not true. They were mixed with exaggeration and hyperbole for comedy, just like the Zelda one.
"It means we weren't supposed to take you seriously with your "Castlevania" and "Mega Man" videos either" It's as serious as you perceive it, clearly. I disagree with your subjective assessment that the past videos were "academia-like." They were comedic entertainment that also contained critique. Just like how Daily Show is a comedy show that contains news. Does that make Daily Show a news show? I'd call it comedy before I called it news. maybe you disagree
"Your can't have it both ways" I can, in fact, have it both ways. It's comedy & critique. It's not contraction. It's not hypocrisy. It is, in fact, both
@@jd-ro2lc I noticed the hypocrisy you immediately pointed out too lol
About Noodles Video: I honestly thought this was going to be a video about all of video game commentary's. Arin's video isn't alienating anyone or any audience, it's purely for comedic purposes. Compared to other RUclipsrs who have tried rage bating, or using the "Woke and its broke" mindset, or make videos just for shock value. I think those are perfect examples towards your argument. Arin's video is literally a pond of criticism compared to the vast ocean of shit take trends.
About Arin: I'm not as big of a fan of his as I was before GG, not to mention that social media now a days is more tame than it was during the 2000's and 2010's. But everyone was praising Ocarina of Time, all reception was just positive because we thrived on the nostalgia of a game that we held near and dear to us as children. Even a hint of criticism, and if you've been around at that time, trolls were on a different level of toxicity, you would not hear the end of it. Arin brought a new perspective to the table, where we begin to acknowledge a game differently as we grew up. Not to mention the dude loves breath of the wild.
My personal opinion: This video missed the mark and only feels like its missing many key points about how videogames should be looked at. Especially a video that was made during a different era of RUclips and gaming media as a whole. It feels incomplete, but I'm looking forward to the next video
Appreciate the effort for the video!
I'm not really a huge fan of Arin or anything but I think the main thing you're missing about all this stuff is that being inflammatory is just fun/funny sometimes. A lot of the negativity in that sequelitus video is clearly meant to be comedic. I don't think it's that deep, basically. I'm not really sure what the thesis of this video is supposed to be other than "rude humor is bad and being nice is good", which I don't really disagree with really, but humor is all subjective, right? It's funny, when you were talking about the two examples of people talking about Skyrim, I found the second character to be much, much more interesting because they're clearly speaking from the heart and not pulling any punches. Again, nice video, not trying to be a shithead or anything, I like your stuff lol
I just think people should make videos driven by whatever force they wanna be driven by, there is a place for the overly negative jester on the internet, they're usually more compelling and entertaining than people that are trying REALLY hard to not piss anyone off ever
Its his unique brand of humor and they do it nearly every episode. Yeah they poke jabs at us as a fan base but as a fanbase who is familiar with their work they know that is all satire and hyperbole for the sake of the bit. They are ALL about the BIT. We as a fanbase can relate and laugh at ourselves when he makes fun of certain behaviors we all exibit and we can all laugh about it together.
Couldn’t agree more 👍
And its not like noodle is nice in many of his criticism videos. He legit does the same type of opening in the BG3 video, yet somehow misses what Arin was doing with his intro.
I can see where you’re coming from, but there’s a big emphasis on intentions and results that don’t work if “nice things are nice” was the entire thesis. It’s tailored made to Arins Oot sequlitis where the intention was pretty clearly to be funny and discuss Oot’s flaws, not spark a discourse devoid of constructive criticism. Which is what happened. Arin went into the video with a goal that wasn’t met because of execution. Noodle gives criticism on his execution and why he didn’t succeed, and in this video it was because he was “too rude” - unintentionally rebuffing the people he was trying to reach.
The point of the video isn’t “be less inflammatory” it’s “what are you trying to do and is what you just made actually doing it?”
holy shit Lute appearance
I don’t wanna be that guy, but at one point I started to realize that the construction of this video’s more humorous and/or heated moments shared a lot of similarities to the video criticized. Not saying that’s a bad thing; in fact, I think a point you were trying to make was that his video could be good if framed differently. But it’s still pretty ironic
I wouldn’t be surprised if this was intentional, but I’m pretty sure it’s not. The key thing is Sequalitis is very much the modern day video essay. Just in general it does a lot of things that we now see as standard for videos like the one noodle made here. It’s definitely ironic this sequalitis video is as bad as it is since it actively shaped the RUclips landscape.
My very first impression of Noodle’s videos was literally “holy fuck he should ask Erin if its ok to take on Sequilitis”. His content scratched that Egoraptor itch thats been missing since Erin went full time on Game Grumps
Yeah, the format definitely isn't what's being addressed here, it's not really surprising his format is similar he likes the format
The humor is not being criticized, the presentation of the argument is. He even complimented the "rant" feeling of the video.
Not the first time he did that... Something something Baldurs gate 3...
Hard disagree on a lot of stuff in this but I respect your opinions and the effort that went into the video.
nah hes just plain wrong on almost everything lol
you dont HAVE to respect people's dogwater opinions either.
thats how you get psychos like trump, putin and netanyahu elected to power and how you get vulnerable groups of people hurt
nutcases and @ssholes like this noodle guy (hes just an @sshole btw not a nutcase im using nutcase for the trumps and netanyahus of the world) dont deserve respect, they deserve ostracization and to be constantly challenged and banned from having access to the public ear and eye.
I am reminded of a segment that takes place in MandaloreGaming's video on Star Citizen (starting at [21:05 of that video]) which highlights the difference between how a Star Citizen backer/player complains about about a gun's balance, vs a fan of /any other game/ doing the same, and how for the former, there is this whole song and dance that has to be done to ingratiate yourself as *one of the group* before you are able to critique a thing.
"Yeah Arin, you made some really good points about this Zelda entry, but I need you to temper your "grumpy" persona for a bit so that you can get the nostalgic fans of this game on your side - to give them the equipment needed to be able to /handle/ this truth."
I imagine this was Arin's way to either cut through the uncritical tongue-bathing that OoT gets from people who haven't gone back and played it for decades, to give more contrast to the occasions in the video where he is more earnest, or to make the video more engaging. He doesn't want to be entertaining critique from people that didn't watch the video, so yeah, piss those people off - made it to the end, let me have it.
Why am I writing this and why do I feel like I've missed the point? Is missing the point meant to be the purpose of *this* video?
The reason this one didn't work became clear with the Skyrim example. A is borderline patronizing. Like you feel the need to apologize and cushion the blow in advance.
Arin is aware of what Zelda fanboys are like. You can't reason with them, they will stab you in the street because you said Ocarina bad. We've been making fun of them for years. Just keep going and instead appeal to people who might even like Ocarina, but are reasonable enough to also find joy in mocking its most annoying fans. It's coming from a place of passionate hatred, with enough substance to justify it.
As a sidenote, I was always taught to completely avoid saying 'I think' or 'In my opinion' in any piece of journalism. Why would anyone bother engaging with something you're presenting with a 'just saying :)' note attached? DIfferent schools, but it's interesting you're placing so much importance on stated subjectivity, when the general rule, at least in legacy media, is to discard it.
I'm glad someone else thought that. Example A for the Skyrim critique was absolutely dreadful. I'm an adult, I don't need to be coddled before being presented an opinion.
gargoyle on the keyboardmaxxing rn but please hear this point..
there's nothing wrong with attempting to attack the way we discuss and debate mediums, there really isn't. it's just that feeling of self-righteousness that drives those who want to put walls on this (by design) ungovernable medium not only by presenting something that sounds novel but isn't (centralized journalism) and also waving out some conveniently troubling things for the likes of those who are within this mindset (corporate standards, following actual standardized regulation and not just pretending to, uh, being politically neutral ahem..)
so I'm sorry but this doesn't really kick in the way I hoped it would. it's attacking from a bad angle, and wrongly. people listening to this are just having their priors confirmed. they're not being told to be more critical of themselves, just critical of those they disagree with. and you've proven that by providing examples of people you agree with that don't at all follow those standards. especially a certain guy who had a whole swath of videos about mocking misinformation and those who believe in it from an often hostile and belittling angle and sprinkling on a bit of his own misinformation. for you to conveniently show the only video that doesn't have any glaring faults in it as "the good yes do that"
you broke your own critique of the late disclaimer by.. doing a late disclaimer, you know a lot of the people who don't like you know you as the "I'm not even gonna concede a point based on personal preference" guy. yeah it's good that you finally admitted that you have faults, as everyone does. and putting that later on is better for not watering down the point of the essay, wait. yeah that's exactly why people do that sort of thing! it's the internet folks, it's about that big spark that gets people further in. so the people that need to hear the point about the benefit of some standards in discussion are not going to watch this to the end because they already see you as unreliable, and you may have just confirmed their priors... so yeah uh I'm gonna make coffee now
i want believe he just made this video on a rush after finding out about arin's video, manchilding over it even though its like 10 years old
17:40 I always love a lil acknowledgement of how bad dunkey's video on Death Stranding was
I mean, who's wrong here to me is obvious: The community, they've has been lashing out at every occasion to the man for 10 years for the sake of "laughing at who's not agreeing with them". They made sure to shut him up with so much hate that Sequelitis was no more. On many occasions during Game Grumps can we hear Dan praising him for that video and Arin not having any spark to defend himself anymore.
We're borderline victim blaming here, think of it; From the very start until the end of Sequelitis, Arin makes a point of depicting what really annoys him: People blinded by nostalgia, alienating this audience is on point, he is not talking to them, they will not listen nor does he want them to. You want to sugar coat his entire video as if it were not already presented with a tone of self aware cartoonish rage. Pointing fingers at him saying he's wrong for getting people to attack him is destructive in this case, it teaches everyone that they should stay in line and walk carefully a minefield set by the few people owning the community and steering it to inflammatory discourse. I get your video is more about helping people not to get those reactions, but I would argue it's cowardly and frankly boring... not to mention hypocritical as you have yourself posted many unhinged rant, with swearing, with self aware cartoonish rage, only difference is that you picked less risky topics.
My point is, depicting leaders, kings, gaming gurus into fools and mocking them is textbook satire. Arin depicts a picture you don't want to be, he invites us to step away from it by alienating that mean goblin out of us. It's smart and elegant, painting a fool and letting people see their flaws without accusing them of any is not only tasteful but sensitive. He's not pointing fingers at specific individuals, but rather towards an archetype. The community however, instead of having the class to attack an archetype inspired from Arin, decided to attack him personally, throwing ad hominem at every opportunities. Why not guiding people away from that attitude and learn to take things with a grain of salt?
Amusingly, a great portion of his points have been addressed in Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom, yet people both praise those games and still refuse to cut him some slack.
-Also if you do a comment video, please do a silly voice that undermines my point :)
I have a hard time being mad about it. Why isn't this video made for me, a person who is not mad about it? Now I'm mad! That's it! I'm making a video essay!
wait... video essays are hard work. I don't like it! You win this round.
Long-time Zelda fan here who recently watched sequelitis again, still found it funny, and loves the content you and Arin have both produced for many years now. I disagree with several points you made. Firstly you argued that representing his opposition who loved OOT as the "hunchback of Notre-Dame" would ostracize the community he was trying to reach. However, his depiction was never intended to represent the entirety of those who did not share his views. While it still may not be the best strategy to represent someone as a grotesque, ignorant, rude, and loud monster of a man, that was targeted towards the small minority of his opposition who would inevitably refuse to even hear him out before angrily lashing out. I never once felt as though that depiction was meant to represent me, a OOT fan. Furthermore, you criticize many of his points about the game's design as if he was comparing his unique experience to a worldly and inevitable truth. Except he never once claimed that these issues such as the "spinning blades of death" were an issue for every player, but rather a critique that the game's design allowed for players such as him to experience those issues on a regular basis. That is a valid critique of the game's design, even if it was represented in a more comical manner. Many of Arin's methods of arguing for his opinion were not as effective as possible, but that's in large part due to his desire to entertain while also educating, and he was using the style of comedy that his fans had grown to love. Also it felt a bit in poor taste to refer to him as "hitlerian", especially without discussing why you would say something like that. This was alongside referring to behavior as "hitler-posting", which again is hard to interpret when you are not actually talking about someone posting content supporting Nazi beliefs. You constantly brought up that his original video was filled with slurs as well, but I cannot for the life of me remember him using slurs. It would have been very helpful for us to have had you actually reference examples of him doing so, even if they had to be somewhat censored, so that we could actually understand what his original words were than having to try and dig through his original 30 minute video in order to find them. These aspects of your video seemed to contradict your points about extending an olive branch and not defaming your opposition as they came off as attacks on his character rather than his argument. The reason I still love his videos is not only that I find them informative and hilarious, but that I will always respect someone's right to have a different belief on a topic than I do, even if I really love it. Especially when they can construct it in a well thought-out manner and if they present that opinion openly despite it being unpopular. These are some of the same reasons I love that you made this video as well, even if I disagree with many parts of it. It just feels like you're lumping in all OOT fans together simply because many have critiqued his video. You say things like "imagine how a dedicated fan of this game would react?", as if we all have the same reactions and thoughts. Me and many other people who first found Zelda through OOT and have held the series as our favorite ever since still thoroughly enjoy his video. Treating all OOT fans as the same due to their membership in a group violates our individuality that allows us to be different despite our shared interests. Many of your points seem to over-emphasize a possible effect as if that effect is inevitable and spread against the entire community he is attempting to reach. I did not view Arin as being disgustingly obscene and an a-hole to me just because he likes to emphatically make an argument against a game I love, especially when most of his points were correct. Overall I felt like your arguments were a bit narrow-minded, as if instead of you seeing it through the lens of "how can this behavior and presentation negatively affect the impact on his audience", you seemed to viewing it as "how can this behavior and presentation negatively affect the impact on his audience, and once I find those aspects I will levy them on the entirety of his audience despite their possible differences in interpretations, while also regularly referring to him as a Hitler supporter." It also didn't help that you expect your viewer to watch you criticize his video, but begin by saying they don't need to watch the original simply due to the existence of outdated jokes or material. While you did a good job presenting several aspects of his video, warning people from watching the original and then critiquing it doesn't seem the most conducive towards fostering an open dialogue. I still enjoyed watching through your video and I'm happy you made it because it opened up an interesting discussion on how to promote a belief without ostracizing those who disagree, something I love and wish there was more of an emphasis on. Thank you
I think the main problem in this video is that you have the belief that Egoraptor's intent in his OOT video was to persuade fans of OOT to realise their favourite game of all time should instead believe that the game actually was bad and poorly made and should feel stupid for liking it. I believe this wasn't the point of his video. Egoraptors Sequelitis videos were in my opinionmeant too show what previous videogames in a series have done, how they built their audience and what made their games fun then contrasting how it has changed with their "newer" releases to the franchise. That is what I believe Egoraptor is critiquing about in his OOT video, he is saying that OOT changed some features that made the other games fun for him (the waiting and the longer grand story). Its pretty silly but if your video was actually more about how to talk about videogames online( which is the title of your video) instead of shitting on a decade old video which was made (in terms of how quickly youtube/internet has evolved) in different time then this video could of been great and actually been informative. I am aware that this video does go over points on how to talk about videogames online but its mainly shitting on a egoraptor's decade old youtube video by using todays online etiquette.
I do have more issues with this video but I believe noodle was missing the point Sequelitis A Link to the Past vs. Ocarina of Time video is which is MY main problem.
The homonculus wasn't _all_ fans, but those folks who like to leave comments about the video before they actually watch it.
There's no need to change the "you" to "I" because it's a hypothetical or general statement about puzzles in games, not necessarily OoT
Say what you want about the man but he knows game design.
You made me realize I was kind of doing this on Reddit, being too inflammatory to my opposition, because people on there tend to be hostile so I started also being a little hostile when discussing things. Thanks for the unintentional reality check 👍 I’ll try to stop that.
Its too late to change, spiral into criminality.
This has been repeated to me almost verbatim from other reddit users. After the latest reddit controversy, an online nerd group I’m a part of suddenly became flooded with former reddit users. They started out being super hostile when talking about our silly nerd stuff before eventually realizing they didn’t have to be. I actually got a sincere apology from a guy when I’m called him out on this. I think feeding off hostility legitimately affects how people view others.
Best advice ..get off reddit
@@Bucket-of-Bees Deleting my account there was one of the healthiest things I've ever done for myself.
@@Bucket-of-BeesFor real. I barely use that to discuss anything.
Dude you're acting like he's required to be "meet fans halfway" or avoid making people mad. It's his opinion and why should he water it down for other people? Assuming he was exaggerating his views for the video, he posted it for entertainment value and idk why you're getting so mad about it.
i think arin just wanted to make a funny rant video about a game
I feel like this video is just a nothing burger
Fr, the video he criticised Is 10+ years old. Its not even useful to challenge It because you would need to assume that Erin's views remained exactly the fucking same for 10 years
I loved that Sequelitis episode. It captured everything I couldn't stand about Ocarina of Time. I hated how much waiting there was. I still hate when I'm forced to wait through something like Fallout/Skyrim's kill animations for the 50th time in an hour. I think Arin's argument SHOULD resonate with almost everyone in that regard, since why wouldn't a gamer want their games to respect their time. Especially as you grow up and have less and less time to spend on them. I like OoT and enjoyed my time playing it (got 100%), but it always frustrated me that it was heralded as the "absolute best" Zelda when it had such obvious flaws.
I also loved your FPS video. It's what got me watching this channel in the first place. The similarities between these two videos you even bring up: It's cathartic for those who feel the same way. I want to hear the passion and the anger and the frustration. That makes a video way more real than one that has to constantly reassure me I'm not the target. Your FPS video clearly displays not just your passion about the argument, but your love for animation as an art form. In the same way, I think Arin's video clearly shows how passionate he is, not because he hates OoT, but because he loves games. I don't think any creator or essayist has any obligation to try to appeal to widest audience.
I also think that Arin's "hunchback" OoT player is meant to represent something that's still a problem to this day online: people only engaging with the headline/title of something and not the content. Arin throws that person out the window, because they don't actually contribute to the conversation. Practically my entire life I've heard people complain about "clickbait titles" and "clickbait thumbnails" and, unfortunately, we'll keep seeing them because they work. Arin is deliberately saying that people who aren't interested in watching the video should just leave the people that actually watched it to discuss it amongst themselves.
The only reason people are so upset by his video is because people started taking Sequelitis as some sort of gamedev gospel, and not just one player's opinion. That's not to say they have no value. That's still not Arin's fault. People's inability to handle criticism of something they like is their problem, not ours. I don't think those people deserved to be catered to by creators like you, Noodle. Acknowledging the flaws in something is not hate, but love, because we express our criticism in the hopes to bring about a better future.
100% this. Anyone who was around for this period of online history will get where Arin was coming from. And like... his over-the-top, angry, hyperbolic presentation was *the point*, that's why people watched him.
"I agree and so should everyone else" you
I am not impatient, I have work and I still can enjoy stuff in games that takes time, if you don't like it, that you, but to imply it's an objective thing that everyone should agree is nobish, people have different tastes, and they are allowed to, as are you, you can criticize it for not doing what you want and say you wish it was different for your enjoyment, but to say that it is wrong for doing what you personally dislike, that Is pardon my words....an asshole thing to do, I love moments were you just chill and absorb the vibe in a game, and I don't go claiming that everyone video game, like overwatch or any other frantic game should be like that
And the notedrame thing, yeah, he was trying to talk about an minority, but in the video just comes out as "everyone that disagrees with me and wants to have arguments against what I said, look at you"(my first sentence was trying to invoke that feeling in you, by diminishing everything you said and presenting you in a bad way)
But I do think because you agree with arin, you are letting more stuff go, but if it was against what you value, you would be pissed off
@@cryfly1 "But I do think because you agree with arin, you are letting more stuff go, but if it was against what you value, you would be pissed off"
Not really, some of us know shtick when we see it, and know how to manage our feelings.
In addition, getting majorly butthurt to the point of dragging out a grudge out to > 10 years over someone's video game criticism is quite childish. I believe the kids call it "cringe".
@@Beautifulbrokenmusic some of us, I am like that, I don't get mad at others opinions, but you claiming that everyone that disagrees with the original video and had probllems with are just butthurt crybabies, that is not showing maturity, and that doesn't make you seem like the type of people who would just take others opinions in a calm manner, you are saying one thing but displaying another, a person who can take others criticism is not the person that would say those same people are just snowflakes
You can call me a snowflake even tho I like arin video despite loving ocarina of time, but still, you can call me whatever, it's okay, but in you doing so just makes more of your points be an rant of a basement angry nerd, not saying that is what you are, just that it's coming off this way
17:13 THATS WHERE THAT "OOPS" SOUND BYTE CAME FROM?? i love being on the internet andvdiscovering things
I wasn't the only person to learn this from the video :D
where have you been on the internet to never know where such memes come from?
People were WAY more annoying about OoT when this video came out. I feel like the obsession with it has mostly cooled off compared to time time the video came out. That's why this video doesn't want to meet them halfway or extend an olive branch. The intent was to dunk on OoT and its hyper annoying fans with good points, not to convince OoT fans that the game has issues, so I disagree with your central point.
Real
I get the whole "they should have framed their argument differently to make it more apparent it is a subjective take" angle, but to anyone who understands subjectivity or what an opinion is doesn't need to be reminded of that. "Speaking subjectively" is silly thing to say he needs to work on. If you read a Roger Ebert critique of a film he hates, he doesn't need to "extend the olive branch" to make it more palatable to people who may love the film. If he says the movie is garbage, he doesn't need to qualify ot with "in my opinion" because we already should know everything he is saying is subjective. Gamers are some of the only man-children that need opinions so padded by soft, cushy forewords explaining how they shouldn't be offended by someone elses views. Being so worried with how everyone feels about a joke you make or how you construct an argument to take everyone's feelings into account robs the project of passion. Going back to Ebert, would his reviews of terrible movies be anywhere near as great or notable if he tried to make sure nobody who worked on the movie's feelings were hurt if he talked poorly about their work? It results in a friendly, but blunted and boring opinion. And that's what people need to keep in mind with any of this, dont get bent out of shape over some internet guy saying a game you like sucks. He isn't wrong, but neither are you.
Reading Ebert's very negative North review you still get the idea that it's Roget Ebert's view on the movie and he praises Elijah Wood's other roles and mentions he likes other Rob Reiner movies. I'd say the issue is that videos and speakers tend to use technical jargon and sloppily stating things as facts rather than opinion. Doesn't help when videos throw around jargon and practices and principles of the craft which I feel prime the viewer more into interpreting the video as "trying to be objective."
I am so glad you made this video - not complaining about it at all - but I find it incredibly funny that we are STILL ARGUING ABOUT SEQUELITIS! That shit came out the same year The Lego Movie did. If it were a child it would be starting the 5th grade.
where are y'all arguing about this video? I literally had never heard of it!
also holy shit the lego movie was 10 years ago
...The LEGO Movie is how old?😶😦😧😫
Its been 10 years ☹️
I like all your videos but this ain't it, chief. Other videographers at the time (Such as Zero Punctuation and Jello) all made the same observations: OoT was seen as "perfect" by fans and could not be criticised in any form or bested by any newer titles. That's why egoraptor is vitriolic and why he had the troll character in the yellow shirt at the beginning. He's speaking directly to those people as a bit, the late 00s presentation aside. He is 100% thinking about the audience and knows who the audience is.
Context matters but it seems to have gone right over your head this time around. You focussed so much on that one character at the start that it's coloured your perception of the rest of the video.
You told me to comment below if the little gamer within is mad.
That's my secret. The little gamer within is ALWAYS mad.
I thought this video was going to be something much different... I hope another video comes from this that tackles the idea I had in my head.
I loved OoT, and wanted to consume anything that had to do with it. I loved Arin's Sequelitis video so much. It didn't change my perception of OoT or it's fans. It did make me think about the game and how I interact within it's world as a player. I thought the video accomplished what it set out to do, and then some. It was easy to understand while laying out some of the biggest issues with Zelda's first 3D game.
This video just feels like a negative spew of some analysis but mostly just empty complaining. I think there are much better examples out there what what you are trying to say. I hope you tackle this topic again, in a different way. The plot feels lost.
Hi Noodle, long time watcher, first time commenter (I think). I always liked the intro of that video because it's not there for people who love the game, it's there for people who have no interest in thinking critically about it it, and simultaneously let people know that if that's them it's not for them. What's wrong with that? we're a bunch of faceless people on the web, it's not real, if people acted like they do here in real life there would be 5,000% more murder (conservatively). What I mean is, there is no reason for someone to try to appeal to the vocal negative minority, it's a waste of time and never works. Even if you do win them over, you lose others for being spineless. Wow, this is long, well if you see this cool. Otherwise, I'll see you in a few months :)
Wow, just finished the video, that was the whole thing... I'm not even sure what to say to that. You misunderstood 30 seconds of a video, had it color your entire opinion, and then made a less funny less thought provoking video 10 years later... Jesus
@@DaRogue101 He foreshadowed it at the start when he identified with a smelly angry hunchback and assumed everyone else felt the same. It was supposed to make fun of people who would leave a comment saying 'NUH UH' and leave without actually listening to and understanding his criticisms. Ironic huh, lmao
Simply as a viewer, I disagree more with this video than with that one. Yes, the strawman was ugly and unnecessary; yes, the cussing and shouting was crass; yes, he did objectify some subjective stuff he didn’t have to. But, man, subjectivity is implied; we’re all adults in here; and even if I loved Ocarina I would surely know that depiction of a Zelda fan was not a literal representation of how he pictures me. His video was fine.
However, as someone who sometimes dabble in trying to be persuasive on the internet, you are entirely, completely right.
It all comes down to, was Arin main goal with that video to be persuasive? If so, his video was indeed a failure. But maybe he was more angling towards being entertaining, or even inflammatory! In this case, utter success.
Or just have people think and engage (not convince, juast reflect). And seeing as we are talking about it 10y later. Great success
I'm not sure why you're jumping to the conclusion that he's trying to persuade. Maybe he just wants to express his opinions? Personally I love hearing people's opinions on games when they differ from me
Man I love every video you post. Why did you spend so much time and energy…on this?
Litterally...
yes, the video is a weird fixation on something long past, it could have been a community post
I'm going to say the exact same thing to you, Mr. Noodle, that I said back when I first Arin's OOT video: "I don't feel as strongly as you reguarding this but I respect your opinion and a lot of the points you bring up are very valid" I still like OOT, I still like Egoraptor and his video on it, and I still like you, you silly little piece of paper on a stick :) Back in those days though I think gamers were a bit more.... Emotionally attached to their favorite franchises back then and Arin knew that in order to stand out and get his opinion heard he pretty much had to come out of the gate as strong as he did. I'm sure he could've been nicer about it but then you wouldn't be making a video about it probably and I like when the funny cartoon guy talks about vibimeo geams
This video feels weird... I started the video believing that it would be about videograme criticism and how to do it. But after 10-15 min, it really feels like a long rant about a 10 year old video like it's the source of all videogame discource that came afterwards. It maybe wasn't the attention, but it looks like at times that you are doing what you're criticizing, which is not being objective. I may have missed something, but again, I can't shake that bitter after taste...
I'm sure the gaming community will be calm and collected about this video
The video itself isn’t calm and collected
I saw some pretty level headed responses disagreeing with noodle.
I kinda disagree with a few things too, but he's not wrong about how to change people's minds, or how some of the nitpicks about his subjective experience with certain puzzles/frustrations weren't universal.
Some one else has said it better than I ever could, but at the time it was speaking in response to how hard it was to say anything negative about the game, so many people would really rile up, even if you started warmly with your criticism.
"Let people enjoy things" ass take
0:56 Holy smokes Genuinely THAT is my brain worm. Extra Credits had taken over my life at some point. My brain worm looks like Dan. Immediately as you started talking about this topic I went Does Noodle know extra credits.