Irresistible Grace Explained
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- Опубликовано: 15 окт 2024
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God is not willing that ANY should perish......
So are you a universalist?
@@masonmcgahey7 that sounds like a divisive term to me. You lot, always so busy arguing semantics.
@@MakeAsylumsGre4tAgain What? Do you not know what a universalist is? It just means belief that everyone goes to heaven.
“You lot”. What are you talking about? People who study theology?
Also it’s not “semantic”. Its understanding of what scripture teaches.
"...but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish..."
The "any" is towards "us" who are his elect.
@@masonmcgahey7do you believe everyone goes to heaven? I'm not even trying to refute that point I'm just curious to learn more about that position. Imo Eternal punishment hasn't ever made sense to me
It’s always interesting to watch how much effort and word salad has to go into explaining this doctrine.
It's always interesting to see people purposely misrepresent a doctrine like people do here.
Should understanding God and how he saves us be simple?
@@scotthinzman7698 yes
Well then that’s a different God than I understand him to be. And given the many different theories and the millions of words written about that I’m not alone. @@LifebytheHorns406
As a former mormon, im shocked at learning about calvanism. Im shocked these guys believe in this false teaching.
Preaching false doctrines to people who bekieve false doctrines...absolutly nothing us accompished. One lie to another.
I love the Spirit of God! As I pour out my heart to him I can feel him there! The Spirit of Christ! What a blessing we have in him!
Amen! Praise the LORD! All Glory to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
And God being arbitrary... despite his not being willing that any should perish? Okay. Got it!
Knowing something is going to happen, is not the same thing as causing it to happen.
That's true with the exception of anyone who is omnipotent
What is your position?
That's how I explain it to people. We really need to get In to that when we talk about this subject because it's really easy to take it wrong and I think even some calvanists turn elect Into elite thinking they're a first round draft pick when it's the complete opposite.
It is when you are the unmoved mover.
@@alexk1888well that’s not true at all. What is your supporting logic to prove your claim? Instead of the “if smoke, then fire” argument, you are offering the “if smoke, then Calvinism” argument. You’re going to need to do better.
God's grace can be resisted, however, when it comes to saving His own, it can not be. God can and will overcome that resistance.
In His writings, Augustine did not necessarily see regeneration and election as synonymous. This is the difference between Calivinism and other monergistic or Augustinian theological systems. One thing we can definitely agree on is that salvation, from start to finish, is from the Lord!
You are free to choose according to your nature. So you need your depraved nature to change to a new one. (A new creation) So in your new nature you except Christ.
If Calvin is correct, it wouldn’t have taken 1600 years roughly for it to start.
That's a dumb argument.
The doctrines of grace have been believed and taught throughout all of church history. Calvin did not invent nor teach anything new in regards to TULIP.
@@lukestacy2326 Prove it using quotations from the early church fathers. Holy Scripture is authoritative and binding but the interpretation of said scriptures are disagreed upon by you and I. You must use the testimony of early Christians to prove that TULIP has been taught and believed from the dawn of Christianity. I am looking forward to seeing your reply.
@@Apachemiwokmexican777 Why is this a dumb argument? I am saying that if the mindset behind the TULIP acronym is the correct way to interpret the Scriptures it would have not been invented in the 16th century and would have instead been used from the beginning. I am not saying that the acronym must be in Scripture I am saying that the interpretations of the Scriptures that lead to TULIP did not exist until Calvin. That is just a statement of fact. If you are comfortable with believing in theology that started in the 16th century then that is your prerogative. I prefer to hold to the teachings of the Apostles, testified by the early church.
"God the immutable, immutably predestined before the foundation of the world all His elect by His free grace to eternal life." Gottschalk of Orbais, 800 AD.
"God “chose us in” Him “before the foundation of the world, predestining us unto the adoption of children,” not because we were going to be holy and spotless through ourselves, but He chose and predestined us that we might become so." Augustine of Hippo, 300 AD.
Many more men can be cited as teaching the doctrines of grace in the pre-reformation period. Such as, Clement in his letter to the Corinathians, John Hus, William Tyndale and many more. However, you are correct the Christian is bound to scripture alone but these men taught this because it is taught in scripture.
I would encourage you to read Dr. Steven Lawson's book Pillars of Grace which deals with the exact argument you are making "no one believed these things until the 16th century therefore they can't be true". This is simply a false assumption on what the confessing church has believed and taught in the past.
It's a nice package. A little more stream-lined than Scriptural nuances, but easier to understand for sure.
Calvinism is a false gospel system like JW or Mormonism. Take the most basic Bible verse, which all Christians cling on to, as in John 3:16. Calvinists go into full spin and word gymnastics and painfully interpret "whole world" as few, randomly elected, pre-destined, pre-determined people etc. The most heart-breaking part of this terrible belief system is that Jesus did not die for all of us, sinners, but, just a few selective elect people that God thought of from the beginning, I guess, before he made Adam & Eve. My goodness.
This video is a pathetic short clip trying to justify the "I" of the"TULIP". Calvinism is "un"christian and "un"biblical, in my humble opinion and honestly makes God look like a bad director of a Pulp fiction movie 🙂
Acts 7:48-51 (LSV)
48 But the Most High does not dwell in sanctuaries made with hands, according as the prophet says: 49 Heaven [is] My throne, || And the earth My footstool, || What house will you build to Me? Says the LORD; Or what [is] the place of My rest? 50 Has My hand not made all these things? 51 You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and in ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers-also you;
I will always be a Calvinist through and through.
Oof.
Trinitarianinfidel777 dude. You will be a Calvinists through and through forever? I will be a follower of Jesus, because I found him in a place of despair as I called out to him, from the pits of hell. He didn't elect me. I finally quit suppressing the truth in unrighteousness. I finally recognized he was good and I was not. I reach out for him and he saved me. You can get all sore that I'm anti Calvin, but in fact, I am pro Jesus. Follow the creation of you want (Calvin), but as for me and my family, we will serve the Lord. We are all wicked sinners, but I chose Jesus as the alternative was unbearable. I had been choosing wrong for 33 years man... And then one day... I repented by turning to Jesus and gave him my life. He didn't take it from me.
@@charleslaird706 that's a nice emotional salad. My sterology will always be Calvinistic. I don't get sore over anti Calvinist, what I get sore over is people on purpose misrepresenting a position. Whether if it's Islam or Hinduism ect. I am for representing a position correctly, y'all represent Calvinism as well as Muslims misrepresent Christianity. That's why I can't take most anti Calvinist seriously. My family and I have always been Calvinist and will continue to serve the Lord too, even if you think that's impossible, but at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what you "think".
@@charleslaird706 congrats on "choosing Jesus" you want a cookie? We have all kinds here. From Chocolate Chip to Macadamian Oatmeal Raisin.
@@charleslaird706 look at how many times you mentioned "I". Mmmmm... look what I did.... you basically said I 5 times. Calvinism says I no times, bringing all the glory to God. He saved me, He elected me, He did this and that. With Him being glorified and doing all of it, there is no room for me in there, which is how it should be.
So God makes us choose Him? And that is free-will?
It fears me to even post a comment here anymore 😢.
Too many people think they know everything about anything religious!!
It’s bombastic!! And just unholy 😢
People have always hated God doing all the saving. All these anti Calvinists hate Calvin more than they love Jesus.
People need to get over themselves for reals.
Calvinists have a twisted idea of what God is like. They deny so much in scripture to keep their doctrine.
Yep
Or maybe you have twisted the Calvinist position?
@@Derik-be3eh I have never heard a Calvinist say that.... Preservation of Saints does not teach that.
Once Saved Always Saved is a different doctrine that Calvinism does not teach.
@Derik-be3ehthis grossly misrepresented
The debate isn’t that we think the Holy Spirit “fails” it’s that we hold to the belief the God actually loves all people and Jesus died for all people and his salvation is available to all who will put there trust in him. This doesn’t make God some sort of failure on our worldview, instead it gives God the most glory. On the other hand your worldview is of a God that actually hates most of his creation and irresistibly controls and forces love onto himself by a select few…
Strawman of the Calvinist position.
@@masonmcgahey7 just like a Calvinist saying a God who doesn’t save irresistibly is failing to save?
@@nickhanley5407if God is all knowing don't you think he knows who's gonna say yes to him? This is who they are referring to when they say "elect" he's not picking and choosing. Could/should they say it in a different way so it's not so easily taken out of context? Probably.
When somebody rejects God they are fulfilling the will of God because God sovereignly chose to allow the man to make his own free choice. The problem with the Calvinist is that they only allow God to be sovereign if He does so according to their will.
God doesn't need to control anyone so people wouldn't choose Him. He doesn't hold those people - He actually invites them. Jesus invited all the time - even pharisees. But the problem is that NO ONE will choose God by his free will. Because we DON'T WANT it (Romans 1). So if God would do nothing, then no one would go to Heaven. That's why Holy Spirit needs to interfere.
I’m glad the internet is around but unfortunately strange gospels like this are being spread. Good news you might be elected, there’s no way for us to know that but God might love you, probably not because statistically it’s very unlikely and Christ didn’t die for everyone even if he does love you he doesn’t love you enough to let you love him back, but if he is electing you arbitrarily for some unknown reason you won’t be able to say no. Congratulations! lol Calvinism in a nutshell
Calvanism is so unbiblical.
How so?
@masonmcgahey7
😂 oh they don't know, don't even bother.
@@Valhalla1776does God love everyone?
It's like they are trying to fully explain and understand something that only God understands. Like trying to fully explain the Trinity or the many other things we have only a dim view of. God choses is but we also choose to accept His free gift. It's a symbiotic relationship, we aren't robots and God doesn't not make people to be evil and to be condemned, that doesn't fit with God's character, there's a middle area we can't see where Calvinism and Arminianism meet
@@Dante-vf4sd Straw man lol
Hey you anti Calvinist. Calvinism isn't a test for Orthodoxy. Y'all need to get over yourselves for reals.
Another part of TULIP that removes man’s requirement to believe and trust in Christ alone for salvation.
What do you mean by that? You still need to hear the Gospel, repent and believe and trust in Christ. It's your free will choice which you WILL make it, if you are chosen. Otherwise in your free will you will reject God surely, because of your depraved mind (Romans 1). It doesn't mean you are not able to choose God. Technically you are able, but you will never choose Him, because you DON'T WANT it. And it's your free choice.
Huh?
@@IvarsKublins “Your free will choice you will make it, if you are chosen?” Ummmm.
@@andrewtsousis3130 I don't personally disagree or agree with this point
My main issue with anything like this whether Armenian or Calvinist.
We limit God's ultimate sovereignty, Fitting him in our limited minds to fit our limited perspective
So who is to say we can choose but he is so powerful that even in choice he can still sway outcomes
For example in Isaiah his cries out to his corrupted leaders to repent or they will be trampled by neighboring kingdoms (Assyria first)
God knew the outcome and used it in time to punish the kingdom of Israel
In that specific covenant , Who is to say in our new covenant with God through the blood of Jesus we are also applicable
Hopefully this makes sense 🙂
I just believe we all experience God's grace differently some require less in their walk to understand more and others require more to understand less.
Ultimately the same grace of the cross but individually we receive different amounts
As it says in his inspired word
God shows mercy to whom he shows mercy
The smoke of the burning strawmen rises high here in this comments section. Good Lord, please come soon!
Lol right?
It’s called mockery. Calvinist depiction of God destroys his good character and perfect motives towards mankind making him the ultimate cause/author of sin and evil. Maybe not a 1-4 pointer but a hardcore Calvinist with a view of strong doctrine of divine determinism should be disregarded. Just give me the Bible and any other doctrine that is contrary to the gospel once provided we are instructed by scripture to utterly reject like saying Jesus doesn’t love or didn’t die for everyone is a twisted statement directly contradicting scripture.
Again, the strawmen.
@@Topher3088 the westminster and 1689 Baptist confession of faith both point out that God is not the author of sin, if you want to understand the position look at the confession. Whoever gave you that definition lied to you, and you should apologize for misrepresenting the calvinist position.
@@Flickerwink it’s called drawing a conclusion. Reduction to absurdity. Yeah no God fearing Christian is going to strait out say God is the reason and author for all evil just like Allah fearing Muslims say Allah is all good. We just draw logical conclusions of him basing his actions and comparing an ultimate standard to conclude Allah is evil. The doctrine is a constraining grace argument. But if God withholds the grace required in order for someone to be able not to sin the ultimate blame of that cause is where the ultimate cause of that action resides. Therefore holding the belief that God determines everything even bad things while holding the belief that God is benevolent and against sin, while ultimately rendering it certain by divine decree, it is what we consider a clear theological contradiction.
All of which is a theological construct that is not found anywhere in scripture
I know that I am saved. The Bible says I can know. I don't believe Calvinism is true. Why do you think there is dissonance there? The Bible says Jesus died for our sins (believers) and for the sins of the whole world. It says also that he desires all MEN to be saved. The Greek word for MEN is a generic one meaning mankind or the entire human race. ❤
Those he forknew...foreknowledge. let's not leave this out. It corrupts your doctrine.
Election is a works based concept, it's not for salvation. Read Ephesians 2:8, 9, AND 10 again
Jesus said and I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself.
It looks like Holy Spirit failed then, either that or you guys just have the wrong interpretation of the bible, I'm going with the latter.
So you're a universalist?
Or maybe you do?
All, yes, He will draw all, all the elect.
@@Apachemiwokmexican777 That's not what Jesus said, calvanists have to change the meaning of certain words or sentences in order to get the bible to fit their interpretation of it.
@@Apachemiwokmexican777 Nope
Wait this all falls apart when u realize Jesus can not be the Messiah and thus not the son of god since he failed to comolete the prophecies in the BIBLE. So how can any of this be true if Jesus was nit the Messiah?
Those whom he foreknew....foreknew he predestined... meaning he knew beforehand who would ultimately accept Jesus not that he decided before hand some would go to hell just because he decided
This is true but also we have to realize we have nothing in us that can regenerate our sinful hearts. He does that for us.
So the loss of free will. That's sad. :/. Why bother sharing the gospel then if God already chose? It sounds great, but that's nonsense.
God is Omniscient so He does not need to predestine anything, He just knows. Also just because He is in control it does not mean He controls everything. When you look at Israel throughout the Old Testament you see that when they obeyed God, He was with them and gave them victory, when they went to other gods, He would punish them. So how does calvinism work in this scenario. There are many more examples, but calvinism is for people that cannot accept that they need to grow up and make their own decisions in obeying Jesus and following Him freely.
To have faith in God means also to believe that a new creature is indeed a new creature and that Holy Spirit is in fellowship with us and not controlling us.
Calvinism is a disaster in my opinion, unbiblical and an offence to God Himself.
Such a wicked twisting of Scripture and a defamation of the character of God.
You look like if Adam22 chose a different life path
Guess I'm last
Acts 2:38 is the Gospel.
No it's not. There is not one scripture supporting baptismal regeneration.
@Trinitarianchristianinfidel777 All scripture is given by Inspiration of God Paul told Timothy. Matthew 16:19 ,Matthew 28:19 Jesus said to Baptize in the name and so The 12 did Peter preached that Name of Jesus, nobody was ever born again until Acts 2:38 as in John 3:3,5 Born of Water and the Spirit. Acts 2:38 is the first and foundation for ANY and EVERY message of how to be saved ANYWHERE. It's not just one scripture EVERY scripture is in Acts 2:38!
@@actsismmljcorrectlyobeyed6190ok, but that scripture doesn't support baptismal regeneration. The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Not water baptism.
@Trinitarianchristianinfidel777 What in the world of Common Sense do you think being Born Again means?! RE generation. John 3:3 1 Peter 3:21 Mark 16:16.
@@Apachemiwokmexican777The entire early church unanimously believed in baptismal regeneration.
Doctrine of demons. Quit blaming my God for what the devil does
What do you mean by that? To whom you are directing this response?
There is not one Calvinist that believes that. You are creating an argument that no one made.
@@Apachemiwokmexican777 Does God decree the rapists to rape? The murderer to murder? You believe God has the child raped for His glory. Quit lying.
@@Apachemiwokmexican777 Does God decree the rapists to rape? The murderer to murder? You believe God has the child raped for His glory. Quit lying.
He isn't wrong about that. God elects those he wants and gives to Satan those he wants. You can't have it both ways in saying it was Satan that didn't, if God didn't choose that lost person
Calvinism mumbo jumbo
Incomprehensible word salad! 🥴
I was able to comprehend it just fine.
Hmmmm. Sounds pretty gross to me...
How does God not failing to save His own "gross"?
@@Apachemiwokmexican777 child sacrifice in all cases is disgusting.
@@Apachemiwokmexican777 you're a Calvinist? How many people has god elected?
This is proof that sola scriptura is broken.
Why? Because you say so?
This is where calvanism fails in apologetics. God has never spoken to audibly to me. He's never appeared in a pillar of fire to me. And Christ has never stretched his hand out to me and called me out of the boat. We must make the decision to follow Christ. The Christian life is an active life, calling on God for strength against the flesh. It's not passive.
It is a choice to follow God. We must make the choice to deny ourselves and follow God's command.
Is it all predetermined? Absolutely.
Must we choose God over ourselves? Absolutely.
Can we do it on our own? Absolutely not.
Calvanism preaches there's nothing you can do, and there's nothing you have to do.
We must choose God! Daily!
I can share my understanding of Calvinism and hopefully shed light on some of the things you mentioned.
I think the Calvinist would say that God draws people by His Spirit. The Spirit does this by giving them new desires and affections. The Spirit even works through an individuals circumstances such as suffering and adversity, He uses people who speak truth over you, and He prepares your heart in such a way that when you hear of His grace, you have nowhere else to turn. John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
It isn't that the Holy Spirit ignores your heart and your will, it's that He works on your heart and will so effectively that you have nowhere else to run. In John 6 many of Jesus' followers stopped following Him and He turned to His 12 disciples and said, "do you want to go away as well?" To which Peter responded in verse 68, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life!" Peter was so gripped by Jesus, that he saw no alternative option. I think this is what is meant by Irresistible grace.
I don't think that the Calvinist would say that it isn't a choice, I think they would say that the reason an individual can choose God is because God set His affection on the individual and chose them first. It is God's choosing of them that makes it possible for them to believe in God. 1 John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God" (John 1:12-13, 2 Corinthians 4:3-6).
Faith is absolutely crucial in the life of the believer, it's just that the Calvinist would say that God grants you the ability to believe rather than it coming from within yourself.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by, "Calvanism preaches there's nothing you can do, and there's nothing you have to do."
I recognize that there are other ways to understand or interpret some of these passages, but this is how the Calvinist would understand scripture.
I don't ever remember making a choice to follow God. I was dead in sins and trespasses. A dead man can't live.
@Trinitarianchristianinfidel777
John 3:16, active choice
1 Corinthians 11:1, active choice
1 Peter 2:21, following is an active choice
Acts 2:38, Repentance is active
Matthew 16:24, active choice to deny oneself
If you think God offers salvation to those who do not choose him, you deny the gospel.
Is the call undeniable? You could argue that. But the fact remains, it's a call, not a cohersed command.
@@TheologyThursday7 Mike Winger does an ex pose on calvanism that is excellent. You'll have to search it with the lack of linking on YT
@@thomasjefferson5727 Thanks for sharing! I'll check it out. I have enjoyed the teachings I have heard from him in the past.
I am reformed, and about 15 years ago I would have aligned more with the Arminianist position, but as I study scripture more and more, I realize whether you're a Calvinist, Arminianist, or Provisionist, you have to "ignore" some passages or not allow them to speak for themselves.
Calvanism is equal to Sunnism in Islam
Anti Calvinist doctrine makes me want to become athiest tbh.
That sure is a divisive method to go sir. How about, they are pro-Bible and pro-Christian and not anti... Now wait a minute. Why should anyone declare they follow the teachings of Calvin? How about we just follow the teachings of Jesus. If you get so twisted up with all this that your rather go Atheist or even joke about it, I would ask you, WHY do these people have concern for you in the first place? If Calvinism is true, then I should just stop evangelizing. It won't make one iota of difference, because .. well, if you choose, you will be humble... Being elect, is a position where a couple of my dearest friends find themselves still... They just have some soul searching to do, to get away from Calvin and seek after Jesus alone.
That’s kinda funny because Calvinism is basically just atheism with a belief in God. All of the philosophical implications are the same…
@@IAMFISH92 it's not when you understand the position correctly, which obviously you don't. Most anti Calvinist have an intelligence level of a Muslim, which is 0.
@@charleslaird706 you just described hyper Calvinism. Nice to know that you also have an intelligence level of a Muslim. Anyone else who is pro-Bible and pro Christian would not mis represent a position, like you have.
@@IAMFISH92 nice to know you know how to lie. Thanks very much for exposing yourself. Once you can tell the truth, which you have proven you can't, maybe I can start taking you seriously, but so far you have proven the opposite, you're a joke like the rest of them.
Strange how these people can read the Bible and COMPLETELY IGNORE EVERYTHING! and convince themselves that this God gives a shit.
How is everything ignored? What is your problem with Calvinism?
The Calvinist God or God in general?
@@alexe8330they are the same God. Calvinism isn't a test for Orthodoxy.