**A little disclaimer before you comment** A lot of the explanations in this video are very simplified for the sake of getting to the point and being a bit more accessible to beginners (who a lot of my audience are). I do understand that S-LOG and S-Gamut are not just decreasing contrast and saturation (I tried to make that clear at 5:48). I have tried overexposing for 2 stops, I've tried several different LUTS designed to correct/convert S-LOG/S-GAMUT to REC709 (like the ones I showed in the video and more). Unfortunately, even with those tools, the problems still persisted or new ones arose. However, when I applied this fix (increasing the saturation in S-LOG/S-GAMUT in camera) and then applied those same correction/conversion LUTS. The problem was significantly reduced and sometimes eliminated. My belief is that the problem is not actually S-LOG but the sony codec and bit rate issue. I know I titled it "S-LOG2 Sucks", but I think it probably only sucks at 8 bit 4:2:0 100mbps and as soon as Sony gives us 10 bit 4:2:2... this whole fix will probably be unnecessary. I hope that clears things up for those of you who were about to be like "THIS IDIOT HAS NO IDEA WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT" Okay bye bye!
That’s actually the next test! After I began my testing, I bought the Ninja V so I didn’t include that in this video (also, it would have made it very long and most people don’t have the ninja v) but I’m gonna be doing more testing with the ninja and 8 bit 4:2:2
Yep, that is exactly the problem. My ancient BMPCC shoots 1080p, but full cRAW or Prores. Its far easier to grade in post than the A6xxx. Not because it has better slog but because there is just so much information in the underlying files. Lack of aggressive chroma subsampling plus decent bit rate/depth work wonders! The fix in the A6xxx is to put more information in the files via a hack - shoot to the right and boost the color. Kinda kills some of the advantages of s-log but thats the only way with 8 bit and the subsampling Sony use in these models.
Thats actually a really nice idea...slog was never designed for highly compressed 8bit 100mbit Footage in the first place, so the artefacts are to be expected, as h264/5 throws away mostly color in areas that have little differentiation in them esp. in the lower exposed parts of an image. That ofc mostly affects slog 2 and particularly skintones where smooth gradients are very important. Thanks for this nice idea! Btw: Filmconvert is another way to make sony slog 2 look really good! Its really good with less then ideal footage, can cover up a lot of things and make the image more „filmic“ if you will... :)
Try this instead: set Gamma to SLOG-2 but change the Color Mode to ITU709 Matrix (rather than S-Gamut). Problem solved, colors are sweet with no weird tint, and can be pushed in any direction without that blotchy stuff. Leave Saturation at 0, in addition to way better color mapping the ITU mode adds just enough Sat to set a solid baseline that can go anywhere.
I know this is an older video now but like you said in the video, low contrast and saturation is an over simplification of what slog is. With that in mind, correcting slog is not as simple as boosting saturation and contrast. You need to apply a rec709 lut to correct that because it is doing more "scientific" corrections than just boosting those two things. The outcome of the rec709 lut looks like it's just cranking up saturation and contrast but it is doing it in the "proper" way. BUT in the end I think you're correct with saying that a camera with 8bit color just isn't meant to have that much flexibility in correcting/grading. So yeah just shoot a flat profile that's not log and I think you'll have more options in post.
just use cine4 for everything, slog2/slog3 is just always grainy, get a F1.4 to F2.8 lens and film with 100iso and you get great quality, crank up the sharpness to +5 with 4K and +10 with 1080 120/100fps, just works trust me, ive been using slog 2 for almost 2 years and i just dont get the same quality. because of the iso.
tested on my sony rx 100 V and it is perfect!!!! tested it in resolve . Slog2 Sgamut saturation to +32 camera setting is great handling the lack of saturation issue in such a poor codec. I dial saturation down to 30 in resolve and now i can actually play with the footage without fear of braking it too soon and results are amazing ether playing with your own grades or using luts, no more fear of using full power of slog2. THANKS DUDE!!!
Yes! You are the winner!!!! I tried 7 different RUclipsrs colour profiles and you was right! For some reason all of them resulted in horrible footage with very difficult ways to be adjusted. Your profile is simply applying the rec709, turn saturation down a bit and job done! Thank you so much! And i also tried cine4 and hlsg(if I’m not wrong) and for some reasons my footage was over exposed (probably it needed very high ISO). But yeah yours was test n.3 I made and if absolutely perfect! Thank you so much!😊😊😊
Funnily enough I ended up doing the same thing but I was a bit more conservative with the saturation in camera. Glad to see I'm not the only one with this problem! Thanks for your help.
Haha I just go all out! I’ve heard some people say that they’ve had issues with colors clipping if they go all the way like this but I haven’t run into it
This great Dunna, If you're white that is. I have gone trough everything and as a black person having darker skin just results in madness in color so a fix for darker skin is you simply need to add a fill light to illuminate you and it should hold us pretty well.
I can totally see how that would be an issue. There are definitely different IRE levels that make sense for different skin tones. Ideally, this fix should still be helpful once you get your exposure correct but obviously you’ve got to do what you have to do to get that exposure correct in the first place like you mentioned.
In my experience, I usually use slog for bright shots and use cine 4 for darker ones, I usually find that I get better results with that. If you want to make a video comparing the two profiles on different environments and listing detailed specs (pp, gamma, black level, etc), I think that would be great! I'm trying to do that myself but it's nice to have a second opinion and I'm also second guessing whether to film it.
Thanks a lot für sharing. In fact i also struggled filming with Slog2. I changed to film in HLG3 (Details -5).But your explanation definitely helps me to go back to S-Log to film in low light with S-log. Thank you so much!
Love this, and I'm only 3 minutes in! I have a Sony a7iii, S-Log 2 was a feature I couldn't wait to get but I see myself using HLG3 more than anything else. People are very hit and miss with it, but it works so nicely for my workflow. Really looking forward to trying your methods!
@@dunnadidit Absolutely! they all have their uses. I'd never shoot S-Log (or any log) in a dark environment or something that isn't lit well. Cine is a run and gun, HLG kinda just works but doesn't give you as much flexibility! I'm on a shoot for the next two days, might put this to the test and do a video on my own channel of results! I'll credit you obviously! Thanks for the tips!
Sung Kim - Lol I’ll use slog now when it would be handy, super bright and dynamic scenes that I need to have high dynamic range. But yeah I’ll probably mostly shoot hlg because it’s easier to deal with.
Got my first camera (sony zv-1) and learning how to use log footage for the dynamic range. I filmed a little intro to a video in s-log 2 and the clips were basically unusable lmao. It's almost like the camera didn't capture any color. I took your advice to increase the saturation to +32 and OMG it's so much easier to color correct. I like the footage so much now that I don't even feel the need to grade it. Thank you!!
@@dunnadidit Yeah, the shadows are a bit noisy in log on the zv1.. maybe cause the iso increases to 1K? I have aperture at 1.8 for a blurry background and 1/50 shutter speed @ 24fps. I'm a newbie...
It has more to do with the sensor size than anything. With smaller sensors, you’re generally going to see more noise in equal situations, but shooting log becomes harder to grade if your signal is less clean to start.
iv been using a6300 for the past 2 years and sometimes shoot with slog2 , and i always get this problem ,i thought thats my fault until i watched your video , thank you so much
So many things wrong with this that I would need a counter video to show you, Your original problem is that you don't seem to comprehend what LOG is to start off. The reason it looks like there is no contrast or saturation is that logarithmic data is not supposed to be view on a rec709 display. The primaries are not placed the same on the gamut - so raising saturation in post is literally just raising the wrong color space in your display. So that is the first thing - you have to convert the colorspace first before attempting to add saturation. Especially using s-gamut which is the default but way too large a gamut for that camera and especially to just blast the saturation. So problem one is not knowing how to color grade. Next problem - 8 bit footage is a luma value - not a saturation or color value. So in 8 bit recording which only has a maximum of 235 shades from black to white the steps of which is the gradient and is responsible for the dark to light colors as opposed to 10 -bit, where you have 1023 steps of gradient the transition from color to color is much smoother in 10 bit. Now on somethings you won't notice that, but in shadows or underlit stuff having each stop of 8 bit S-Log2 having only around 20 shades per stop - details in shadows and or gradient blends in color will not be smooth. To reiterate this fact - You can have a video recorded in black and white in 8-bit and black and white in 10 bit - which of course has no saturation. And i noticed in your comments below that you someone asked about 10 -bit. There is no possible way to shoot 10-bit with any of the Sony alpha cameras - external recording only helps the chroma value of 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 but - this leads me to what I think part of your problem is which is chroma noise from subsampling in the codec XAVC is a good version of h.264 but some of your chroma problems is underexposing of a delivery codec - if you use your ninja and record Dnx or Prores you see a gain in using that too. Exposing is more than just the camera too - as you said in your video - you can add a light or a reflection - because only having 8-bits is also about light. Everything you had in this video is underexposed. The one side of your face at 70% is only exposing that side of the face correctly - by not adding a light or reflector - you are really under exposing the other side of the face - and as explained above - if you are in 8-bit you have to concentrate more on getting food light because there is less information to play with. By the way you can grade the perceived contrast and saturation by using curves with yrgb all on and apply an S-curve as soon as you do - you will see that the contrast and saturation will go up as you apply it. But if you have limitations in your color grading ability - use a technical LUT to get your image from LOG to rec709 and then start grading to taste.
I know this comment is rather old, 4years lol, but I wanted to ask.. If Im shooting on the a7iii (8-Bit) in SLog2, then which colour mode would you use? Is S-Gammut3.Cine good? And I wont need to boost saturation in camera? As that is an option I see in Davinci, so I can convert it to 709
@@JimRobinson-colorsI have Sony ZV-E10, I’ve tried to shoot in log and it falls apart in post. Settings I have tried using are slog 2 and sgamut3.cine. Any suggestions, should I change the sgamut3.cime? Sorry I’m pretty bad with all this stuff
I'm am SO glad youtube reccomended me this video!! i've had exactlly the same issues with my a6300 and even tho i understood all the issue with not having 10-bit color or 4:2:2, there are plenty of people that use it and report no problems (like you said). One of the things i found out on my experiments, that you didn't metion and can maybe try is that by adjusting the contrast using CURVES instead of the slider, i had WAY more control over the "blockyness" and separation of colors (to the point where many times i got rid of it)! it must have something to do with luminance values of colors being torn apart by the codec and enhanced by the contrast slider or the luts, but i'm not sure. Now i'm gonna try your solution, and maybe i will finally have peace using it, so thank you ❤ you just earned one more subscription.
Thank you thank you thank you! I understand this is not the best way for some more seasoned videographer / colourist, but after such a long time shooting with Slog (even grading with resolve) i always find my 8bit s-log is a bit frustrating. Dunna it works great now and i am happy to use my camera to do more work! Also there is a good side effect - the footage looks great by itself if you are looking for a low-contrast de-sat look! However i think for me +32 is a bit much in my A7Riii and A7iii, so i dialed down to +15, add a little S-curve in resolve and looks great already! no need LUT! Thanks again!
WOOOAH this worked! Tried it in S-Log3 as well, works there too. I can't tell you how great this is, man. Instant subscribe from me! This was the MAIN reason I try not to use any of the S-Logs on my Sony because of these botchy artifacts. But this setting with S-Log2 fixes some other color artifacts as well within gradients in darker areas. Of course, I see see the 8-bit banding rolloff, but without the color artifacts it's actually not bad and is useable. My workaround used to be applying the HSL secondary controls in Premiere Pro and just selecting the botches, reducing saturation and matching the color to the rest of the skin, but that is time-consuming. As of now, it seems that I won't have to do that. One of the most valuable RUclips videos I've watched in a long time LOL. Thanks for that!
I've never really enjoyed the workflow of color correcting and colorgrading S-Log. Also my results have not really been the as good as I wanted, but that saturation tip seems helpful. Thanks! 👍
I literally just redid your test and came to the exact same result (on an a7iii !). It kinda makes sense in theory. now, there might be some camera pro out there pointing out that some other incamera settings are completely wrong for shooting Slog (my guess is it has to do with colour mode, conversion or import settings) but it is definitely a huge improvement for my current situation!! thx so much for this. One thing I did however felt was a loss of sharpness. Shooting on an A7iii I personally use HLG3 for the most part as I felt from the beginning that it offers the best look with minimum post effort, but you will struggle to expose shots like in a house where there's a lot of windows.
Glad to hear that it worked for you too. In the end I really feel like it just comes down to the codec. And by increasing the saturation, you’re just giving yourself a better shot at being able to recover the colors. Thanks for running the test again!
Man oh man..! I have watched tons of videos on s-log because I’ve been having a similar problem where I was seeing that blotchiness in kinda purplish tones on my skin and none of the videos gave it like this... all those pro’s must be aware of it but none of them mentioned. Well actually I’ve stumbled upon a blog post from cody blue only I guess saying he prefers cranking up the saturation and it looks better but didn’t really explain why. And thinking my problem was totally unrelated, I thought it could have gone worse so didn’t even bother giving it a try. I was looking for cine4 profiles now but this video just opened a whole new thing for slog again. Thanks a lot man... great work. Subbed... :)
1. Not sure WHY I hadn't subscribed yet... took care of that lol. 2. You CAN still edit Lumetri Colors after you apply a LUT, but it's more "where" you use it. For LUTS, if you apply a LUT into the "Creative" tab rather than the "Basic Correction" tab, you will still retain the footage data to freely edit your Lumetri data, even w/ the LUT active, and w/o "pancaking" data on top of the LUT and footage falling apart. Of course this isn't DIRECTLY related to your solution for blotchiness which I'm trying out now, but I just saw you using LUTS in Basic Correction, and I know how annoying it is to have to turn the FX on and off for reference. Took me a while to learn this, but hope it's of use to you Dunna. Thanks again for your content bro!
1. Thanks for subscribing! 2. Totally! I typically use corrective luts like the ones I used in the video in the basic correction tab. Then in the creative tab I will use any creative luts I might want. But from time to time I’ll use a corrective lut in the creative tab so that I can use the basic tab to adjust exposure going “into” the lut. Or sometimes I’ll just add another lumetri instance prior to the one with the lut on it.
For the underexposed stuff you can change the metering mood to spot, if is a subject in this case that you want to expose properly without care about the rest as you said ! Big up bro !
After struggling with SLOG2 a couple years I came to the conclusion that the best looks for Sony A7 series cameras are the baked in looks, like cine 2 and cine 4. The logs are just too robust for the 8 bit codec. Then, I bought a RED, and wow. Yes, I know that’s like comparing a BB gun to a Howitzer, but RED raw files are nuts. No longer do I have to struggle with grading because they pretty much take whatever you throw at them and then some.
My only experience with RAW/RAW-ish is my Canon EOS M with Magic Lantern (12-BIT setting) and Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Original (ProsRes). No denying, both these cameras are simply "filmic" right off the senor but the low-light is hard to work with on both. I'm looking into something similar but with better low-light. I'm sure i can get close enough with my a6300 but i would like to dodge that process in editing. RED seems to be my best bet. I'm not a fan of Blackmagic's MFT and now Super35 sensor product because they no longer have that Filmic look right off the sensor. They stopped using Fairchild sensors but i have a feeling its because ARRI and RED made a big deal about it.
This video is really helpful because I also shooting in slog 2 and 3 with proper exposure but same issue I like this trick now I also feel confident to use it again because I started to move on Cine4 but thanks to your video now again slog 2
i'm gonna try this 100%..another issue i have with S-log2 is that sometimes the image is so low-saturated that even cranking up the saturation to the extreme it barely shows up any color, and if it does there's the whole pixel/blotchy mess that you show in this video..thanks!
@@dunnadidit when that happens i try to find a good middle ground in some way, sometimes i even used a couple of adjustment layers with lumetri with changes to specific colors..i've tried an Slog to rec709 lut once but the result was so awful that i gave up trying after a month. A few days ago i went to the beach to get some material to practice color grading, i've tried under exposing a little bit and that worked on some clips but not enough..i still have a pretty much black and white image despite the almost sunset colors
This was a great video. I've recently switched over to Sony and this issue is something that I've struggled with. Glad to see the "expose your face with zebras at 70" method, I just talked about that in my video yesterday because it helped me finally get a better overall exposure in S-LOG2. Will have to try the saturation setting as well, thanks!
Thanks so much! After finishing the whole thing I do wish I exposed it a little brighter, maybe the 70IRE over more of my face... but with that saturation trick I find it a bit more forgiving!
Wow. This is a game changer. I gave up on slog2 after some early trials and I've been using a PP6 since then. I decided to give your idea a try and the results were very good. Yes, it seems like there should be a more elegant fix, but it seems to work for me, so I'll go with whatever gets the job done. Thank you very much.
Hi man, I loved this video. It is so to-the-point and easy to understand for beginners. Simplifying something for others is the hardest thing. And explaining it practically is what everyone wants. Thanks so much for doing this. Am subscribing...yayyyyy :)
You don’t get usable dynamic range if you going to expose like that because it’s way underexposed you need to expose your shadows until they above 40 ire it’s or overexpose for 2 stops if you don’t know how to deal with histogram or waveforms
I hear you... I've tried "overexposing" as well, but I find that my midtones never fully recover from that. They always look weird and washed out. And then on top of that, the highlights get super blown out and unrecoverable. Again, I have a feeling that this is because of the codec, bit rates etc from these cameras and might not be the case if we had 10 bit 4:2:2. But like I said in the video, I would prefer to blow out my highlights a little and get my skin looking better and this method (skin to approx 70IRE) seems to have worked best for me in my testing (believe me, I tried a TON of different exposure options). I appreciate the input!
Dunna Did It I have a video called get the most out of Sony A7III I shot it entirely in SLOG2 and every clip I tried expose +2 stops. There was a clip I shot 51200 ISO but because I exposed right I don’t have weird artifacts, and a pro tip not to use s-gamut at all if you want to prevent codec from falling apart, try to use rec.709 matrix with s-log2/3 gammas you will get even better results
@@SUVO_RAW Old comment, but hopefully you can still help... So, when using the A7iii in SLog2, I only have the S-Gammut, S-Gammut3.Cine, and ITU709 Matrix color modes available, plus the random other ones. So, which mode would you use??? I shot test footage outdoors in a high contrast during mid-day sun, and the colours using ITU709 looked really weird! And I converted it in Davinci from SLog to 709 - The colour space I had to leave it as it was as it got even worse. Not sure if ITU709 is ideal then.
I've been there too... but the problem with slog is not SLOG itself. It is sony mirrorless lineup that just records 8 bit 4:2:0 and literally don't have enough colors and luminance values to push slog to its real potential. And not to mention that you only can record 100mb/s which SUCKS SO BAD. I moved to my gh5s from my a6300 and I could not be happier😃
Such a wonderful trick as I’m completely new to Sony, this helps a ton. I had watched a few video tutorials before this, it was recommend to set the Zebra to 107+ for all. That was why it was overexposed on the face of the subject. It was my first time shooting with Sony for the clients. I wished I had watch this before the shoot. Thanks for the help, anyway
I've been having this issue for a while on my A7iii when I push the saturation or a LUT that pushes saturation. Thanks for the fix! I have been puzzling over it for a while.
So Dunna I had the same difficulty when I first got my sony a6500 and shooting slog2. I totally ditched it and used cine instead. But a few weeks ago I did a huge research into it and finally managed to figure it out. Actually slog2 has two distinct advantages. Increased dynamic rage and BIGGER GAMUT (AKA S-GAMUT) it is not just desaturated, It is actually wider than Rec709. Long story short you have to first use a correction LUT to map it back to Rec709 using sony's official correction lut (instead of bumping the saturation slider) this way the gamut part is corrected and then use s-curve to correct the dynamic range and contrast. Trust me it works like a charm 😉
Actually, I tried this in this video. I used Sony’s supplied S-Log2 to Rec709 lut and had the exact same problem as when I cranked the saturation. I definitely understand what’s going on when I’m using SLOG2. Like I put on a title in the video and in a pinned comment here, I just simplified things for the sake of the video. That said, I have tried using the proper conversion luts (of course I tried that first) but still had the same issues. I also tried a variety of different exposure methods but regardless, had the same issues, overexposing helped a bit but then came into different issues with the mid tones being flat and unrecoverable and anything that was a little darker in the scene had the splotchy issue. So unfortunately the Sony correction lut isn’t the answer for me here. Thanks for the input though!
@@dunnadidit I have to apologize for jumping to conclusion without first watching the video completely. Thank you so much for making this point clear to me. And thanks for putting the time amd effort into making these videos. I totally appreciate it. Keep up the good work 👌
You're really underexposing it in my opinion. The window should go over 107+ because otherwise the rest of the scene is underexposed. In a perfect setup, you would have a light or you'd block the light coming in from outside so that there's less contrast between the subject and the window. Slog2 really hates underexposing and makes skin tones look crap. I've also had problems with Slog2 when shooting indoors at weddings especially with windows in the bg. The dynamic range can not save bad lighting so I'm just overexposing the windows so that the subject is perfectly exposed. This gives the best results for me.
I agree that I could do with a little more exposure and let the window go a bit... that said, even when I did that in the video and exposed more for the skin tones, I still care out with the same issues with the blotchiness. In fact, in any test I’ve done... underexposed, overexposed, whatever, the blotchiness continued to be a problem. That said, cranking the saturation helps. Also, other color spaces seem to work better than s-gamut and the problem seems to be much worse in premiere than davinci resolve. Haha I should put this in the description as an update lol
Thats some good tips right there. I have not been wanting to mess with S-Log so I have been shooting in HLG2. Maybe one day I will be brave lol! Nice video!
Nice Vid! I've opted the last several months to simply shoot in ITU709 in both with some slight tweaks. For my workflow and needs.... punchy color, high contrast and sharpness SOC are needed and the 6300 does a phenomenal job for that :) I messed around for a year with varying results with LOG but at the end of the day I'm not a colorist and certainly not in an 8bit space and ultimately my stock footage sales actually increased just doing it this way... :)
@@thomasshakelton No need, it’s baked in and captured at REC709 value/curve. Using any kind of LOG on anything below 10-bit is tricky and overall limited. I’ve moved on to the FX3 and shooting in 10-bit and the difference on this specific topic is truly remarkable. For 8-bit capture I highly recommend testing and finding suitable in camera looks and baking them in. Or just using 709 and use the physic space to achieve a look. With my a6300 I will shoot in SLOG2 and I will grade but I also do so in very good lighting and knowing I want to achieve a very “regular” look.
@@avbh-d3i thanks appreciate it, ITU709 makes the skin way to magenta for me S-Gamut plus the rec709 correction is posts does the job pretty good. all the best
Ok. I gotta try this. I'm SO colorblind that the yellow/ red skin blotches don't even register for me, so fixing them has been IMPOSSIBLE. I can tell something isnt right, but can't get there. Cine 4 has been good for me, and looks similar to the Dunna Fix so I'll have to try your method and see how my eyes fare!
thanks dude! i'm going to give this a shot. i stopped using s-log a long time ago as well because of this same issue. well, this and i was also getting a lot of noise/grain in my footage when using s-log. I started using cine 2 and cine4 and got a way better result. I'm still shooting on the a6300 so i feel ya on that 8 bit. i need to just step it up already and upgrade cameras. i swear i feel like i've been back and forth with picture profiles and settings since i bought this camera a few years back. haha.. thanks again bro. i'll give this a shot.
Gerald made a good video were he found out that slog is in legal range and not full range on sony's mirrorless cameras, he found an in-camera solution that could help a lot when grading
Excellent video!I use a A6500 for underwater filming and so far got the best results with S-log2 and S-gamut3 cine (and lots of cursing in post!). Underwater is a very contrast environment and lights are only useful for close shots. If you are deep you get no colors and dark shadows but a bright surface in the background..What settings would you recommend in this situation?
Had that problem for ages and just used Neat Video v5 yesterday to build a ridiculous amount of noise profiles for my A7III to remove the macro blocking present when I shoot in Slog2. The results look really nice (especially when you convert from Slog2 to Slog3 in post and then grade), but it's slooooow. I'm looking forward to trying your suggestion Dunna. If I can get this to work without NR, I'm a happy bunny :-)
Hopefully it takes some of that hassle out for you! Obviously you’re losing some of the potential advantages of having extra range in your colors too but I’ve never had any problems with it clipping colors still.
Dunna Did It It does indeed, thanks a lot. I tried it today and it definitely holds up a lot better, but I still found a couple of blocky nasties on my fiancée’s face. Slog2 on the A7 III is really prissy. I really don’t want to jump onto that bandwagon, but part of me hopes the A7S III will solve all of those problems (I mean dear God if it doesn’t). Until then it’s Neat Video and Saturation at 32+ 😉👍
Glad it helped a bit. Maybe don’t tell your fiancé that they have “blocky nasties” on their face or they might get the wrong idea 😂 Yeah hopefully the a7siii does better. Even just the bigger pixels should help. I notice a difference between my a6600 and my a7iii so fingers crossed🤞🏻
Dunna Did It 😄 Luckily she doesn’t hang around RUclips anymore. Fingers crossed on whatever Sony’s gonna deliver end of July. Don’t wanna have to sell all my gear again 😶
Wow man this confirms my suspicions about this. I had always wondered if cranking saturation would help preserve that info in camera and help out in post because the information would not be stripped out of that weak codec and you wouldn't be trying to restore something in post that's just not there resulting in artifacts.
I may be in the minority here, but boosting saturation in post without first correcting your exposure settings with the color wheels in premire is why your'e having issues. I suggest everyone watch Gerald Undone's video on Slog and Hlg with color swatches as he explains how the curves work and how to get your footage baselined in rec709. The relationship between color and exposure plays a huge key on accuracy and luminance, which is the issue you're having as you havent corrected your exposure before messing with color
I'm struggling with this too, with Sony a7 III. So in this videos what LUT are you using if any? And what are the modifications you did in post regarding basic settings?
This trick just saved me from that blotch skin.. thanks a lot. But right now I'm struggling with another issue... noise! No matter how much I overexpose, the shadows always have that terrible noise... but here in your shots, but in tests and the introduction part, I see a lot less noise. Did you use denoise or is it like this directly from the camera? If so, what is your secret? :)
I have / had a similar problem with my GH4 and V-Log. When I throw on the rec709 lut from Panasonic some of the footage is way too red and hard to fix. I found it mostly when the white balance was slightly off. Somebody made a fixed version of the rec709 lut that dials back the saturation heaps that fixes it a bit. But mostly I try to get the WB right. Sometimes if it is really bad I try and fix it without a lut at all. Now I've upgraded to the GH5 but I am yet to grade any of that luscious 10 bit footage but I can't wait to try. I still have a bucketload of 8 bit GH4 footage to grade though. Thanks Dunna this was great 😀
Hey, i have a Sony A6500 and i'm using the setting from EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony Cameras for some time now. Since i get the settings all my problems with SLOG-2 are gone, simply overexpose for 1 till 2 stops, depends on the surroundings and the look you are after.
HAHA WOW! I am coming from Panasonic where I could navigate the menu with my eyes closed... I can barely navigate Sony menus with both hands while a tutorial for Sony menus plays on one side and the owners manual is open on the other side! Dunna is navigating these menus like a NINJA! haha... good work... I can't wait for the a7Siii to be here to give us proper 10 bit and the latitude to really push log to its limits like I can with my S1H!
Haha 😂 I’ve never really had that much trouble with the Sony menus. I always felt like people made a bigger deal out of it than it was. But I do have a theory! With certain things in life, it makes it easier to then learn another similar thing. Like when you learn one instrument, it’s easier to then learn another one. But I think menus is the opposite... once you learn one, it becomes HARDER to learn another one because you’re fighting all your instincts and muscle memory. But also I’m a huge nerd who thinks about these things lol 😂
@@dunnadidit I appreciate your time for this a lot! Cant thank you enough! If u are ever in Las Vegas let me know. I got the A7Siii and going crazy with the picture profiles.
Do you film the talks and the studio with the a7iii? and which lens? The quality in your studio its just soooo amazing man and crispy sharp! Any secret ingredients?
I’ve been playing around with Slog 2 and I also found it frustrating working with saturation. I’m definitely going to try this setting out and compare with previous shots. Thank you!
Are you familiar with the Leeming LUTs for Sony? Those of us who are have been doing this for a while. Although, even those have their own pitfalls and can yield unexpected results the first couple of times using them.
Yeah, I use the leeming luts most of the time. Actually I found out after this that he uses this trick in his s-log too! He gets you to crank up the saturation in your picture profile. I find his exposure rules a bit difficult to follow all the time but getting a monitor with luts has helped a lot because I can just shoot with his luts already applied.
@@nicholomo You can do it from where you set the picture profile. Pick 7 then hit the right side of the rocker switch. Go down to where it says Color Mode and change it to ITU709 Matrix.
I believe you should not expose the face „to the right“, like right of center of the histogram, when using S-log. ETTR when doing portraits is wrong. It’s about quantization steps, also known as „banding“ if they become noticeable. There will always be quantization steps, with 8 bit, 10 bit, 12 bit, 16 bit. They will just become smaller. But shooting on a 8 bit camera, those quantization steps are huge. The whole brightness range is divided by 256. Now why is that a problem when shooting faces with S-log and moving the skin brightness to the brighter parts of the image? Here‘s why: Using S-Log and applying the "expose to the right" (ETTR) technique, where the histogram is shifted to the utmost right without clipping important details, can have specific implications for detail preservation and overall image quality, particularly with respect to skin tones in a portrait scene. Let’s break down these implications: ### S-Log and ETTR 1. **Principle of ETTR**: The ETTR technique is often used to maximize the amount of data captured by the sensor, reducing noise in the shadows by increasing the overall exposure. 2. **S-Log Encoding**: S-Log is designed to capture a wide dynamic range by compressing the highlights and expanding the shadows and midtones. This ensures more gradations and detail in the darker and midtone areas, which aligns with human perception. ### Potential Issues with Skin Tones 1. **Skin Tones Exposure**: Typically, skin tones are best exposed around 40-50% of the brightness scale, corresponding to around 100-128 on an 8-bit scale (0-255). 2. **Shifting Histogram to the Right**: If the exposure is increased so that the skin tones are in the brighter parts of the image, the following might happen: - **Quantization in Highlights**: In S-Log encoding, the quantization steps in the highlights are wider. If skin tones, which contain fine detail and subtle gradations, are pushed into these regions, there could be a loss of detail because the quantization is coarser in the highlight range. - **Potential Clipping**: Background elements may get clipped, and some details in the skin tones might not be captured accurately due to the limited bit allocation in the highlights. ### Comparison with Linear Profile - **Linear Profile**: In a linear profile, the quantization is uniform across the entire brightness range. If skin tones are exposed properly within the intended range (100-128), the detail preservation is consistent. - **S-Log Profile with ETTR**: When using ETTR with S-Log, the skin tones are pushed into the brighter regions where S-Log compresses the data, potentially losing some finer details due to the wider quantization steps. ### Optimal Approach for S-Log 1. **Proper Exposure of Skin Tones**: Instead of blindly following the ETTR rule, it’s crucial to ensure that skin tones remain in the intended range where S-Log provides finer gradations (midtones). This ensures the detail and natural appearance of the skin. 2. **Histogram Management**: While it’s beneficial to increase exposure to reduce noise, one should balance it to avoid pushing crucial midtone details (like skin) into the highlight region excessively. 3. **Post-Processing Flexibility**: S-Log footage is designed for post-production. Ensuring proper exposure of key elements like skin tones allows for better flexibility and adjustment during color grading and editing. ### Summary - **Detail Preservation**: Shifting the histogram to the utmost right using S-Log can lead to a loss of detail in skin tones due to the coarser quantization steps in the highlights. - **Balanced Exposure**: It’s essential to expose skin tones correctly, keeping them within the midtone range where S-Log provides finer gradations. - **ETTR with Caution**: While ETTR can reduce noise, it should be applied cautiously, ensuring that important details like skin tones are not pushed too far into the highlight region, thus preserving the natural look and detail of the subject. In conclusion, while S-Log and ETTR can be powerful tools, they must be used judiciously to avoid losing critical detail in important areas like skin tones. Proper exposure tailored to the subject is key to maximizing the benefits of S-Log encoding.
You've discovered something just like i did 1 year ago. And you know what, I still got rid of S-Log. You know Why? BEcause why spend times & frustration to go through hell for all those issue, when you can just have the same result very easily, nice contrast, nice saturation, with a diffrent picture profile?
I hear you. Using S-Log is about the flexibility. I probably won’t use it all the time, but when I come up against a situation where it would be handy, it’s still going to be nice to have.
@@dunnadidit i thought like that, too. Like saving it for some special scenaries, special occasions. Ended up didn't use it anymore. Hahaha. HLG ftw. Thanks for your reply anyway.
That’s really odd for slog 2. Are you sure you’re not on slog 3? That being said, every picture profile has a different maximum exposure level if the zebras disappear, then that means you’ve set them higher than the picture profile can go. This is actually one way that you can determine the clipping point of each PP
@@dunnadidit Hey, thx for answering. I found the answer to my own question. Normally SLOG 2 should go up to 107+ and after that blow everything out. I could only get up to 99+. That was because i used some Knee levels in the Picture Profile Settings. I realised that those were on manual and not on auto. You actually need to set them either on auto or on at least 100% in manual mode (which is the same as auto). Do you use knee level or do you have it on auto too?
You sure you have it set to H.265 10bit? I’ve also heard that this problem is exaggerated in premiere pro and people have tried the same grade in da Vinci resolve and haven’t had the same issues
The premiere thing is something me and Gerald have been going back and forth about. We swapped some slog footage and his stuff coming out of da Vinci didn’t have the same issue I was having in premiere. Regardless of whether it was his footage or mine, premiere always had more color problems.
What's interesting about the transform function is you can shift SLOG2 to Vlog or FLOG and then apply to say the Fuji ETERNA conversion LUT. Gerald can probably explain it better, but it mathematically transforms the data from one gamma/colorspace to another, in a linear fashion, which helps eliminate clipping of the data downstream in the nodes. What's nice is if you covert straight to 709, you'll probably have to reduce the gain and lower the saturation (~30%) to get a neutral starting point, so less need to boost in camera. The data in the highlights are preserved out of range in your parade.
I simply use some well designed LUT's that I bought and then I just fine tune it from there. Never had any problems with blotchy skin or stuff like that since I don't really wanna deal with color grading it from scratch anyway :D
Doesn’t seem to matter whether I use a lut or go from scratch though. As I demonstrated in the video, that problem was baked into the footage once it was recorded so no matter how you grade it, it’s there. The nice thing about doing this is that I can still use luts, they just look better now.
@@dunnadidit Hmmm weird. Maybe the footage was just too underexposed I guess..? Your example did look fairly noisy in the shadows so maybe it was just the noise pattern "overpowering" the low bitrate so putting any kind of color grade was already too much to handle. I could be talking completely out of my ass here. Did you get the same problems when filming outside with enough light available? I usually overexpose the skin tones by about 1.5 to 2 stops or with skin tones at 60 IRE. And I don't care if a window is blown out I always prioritise the subject (skin). You can only expect so much dynamic range out of these types of cameras.
@@dunnadidit Hmmm weird. Maybe the footage was just too underexposed I guess..? Your example did look fairly noisy in the shadows so maybe it was just the noise pattern "overpowering" the low bitrate so putting any kind of color grade was already too much to handle. I could be talking completely out of my a** here. Did you get the same problems when filming outside with enough light available? I usually overexpose the skin tones by about 1.5 to 2 stops or with skin tones at 60 IRE. And I don't care if a window is blown out I always prioritise the subject (skin). You can only expect so much dynamic range out of these types of cameras.
I did try this as well pushing the exposure higher and the problems persisted. I've done some other shooting outside and followed the typical "overexpose for 2 stops" rule but I always found that when I did that, my mid tones were always weirdly washed out and I could never get them looking natural again. Of course there is always more experimentation to do, I definitely don't want to make it seem like this is the only way... just the way that worked best for me so far. And I totally agree about blowing out a window to get the skin right. In fact, the way that I did it sounds like it lines up with what you're saying. Most of my skin would have been around 60IRE since that side highlight was around 70. But, again, like you said, you can really only expect so much from these cameras haha. It was a super dynamic scene for sure.
I think a big problem with the results you are getting is because you are recording on an sensor that only captures 8 bits, and even though you are capturing S-log you are still not getting nearly as much information as you would with a better camera that has a sensor that records 10 bit or higher. That is a huge downer for Sony users. Not sure why Sony still works with 8 bit sensors on a lot of their cameras. I have the A7iii and notice that even when I use S-log I can't really push the grade too hard or it just breaks apart, even when I really nail the exposure.
Totally! Well, it’s not technically an 8 but sensor, but the video is only captured in 8 bits so I understand what you’re getting at. I think I even mentioned that in the video. Something I’ve discovered since is that the problem is less of a problem in Davinci resolve than it is in premiere so I think at least part of it is coming from the software too.
@@dunnadidit I am still learning Davinci and haven't graded much with that software, but I would think it would be better. However, 8 bit is 8 bit. If the information isn't there it just wont work. Also, and this is for my A7iii and might not pertain to your camera, but Sony recommends setting middle grey exposure at 32% in S-log and whites at 60%. This would mean that your skin tone should be set to around 50 IRE not 70. Sony also recommends that you use S-Gamut for S-log2 and S-Gamut3Cine for S-log 3. Not sure how much that affects color.
It does affect color for sure! And the funny thing is how many people are in the comments yelling at me for under exposing when technically I’m overexposing for the recommendation from Sony lol. You’re right that 8 bit is 8 but, you’ll only be able to push it so far, but that blotchy issue isn’t an issue in Davinci for some reason... only in PP.
**A little disclaimer before you comment** A lot of the explanations in this video are very simplified for the sake of getting to the point and being a bit more accessible to beginners (who a lot of my audience are). I do understand that S-LOG and S-Gamut are not just decreasing contrast and saturation (I tried to make that clear at 5:48). I have tried overexposing for 2 stops, I've tried several different LUTS designed to correct/convert S-LOG/S-GAMUT to REC709 (like the ones I showed in the video and more). Unfortunately, even with those tools, the problems still persisted or new ones arose. However, when I applied this fix (increasing the saturation in S-LOG/S-GAMUT in camera) and then applied those same correction/conversion LUTS. The problem was significantly reduced and sometimes eliminated. My belief is that the problem is not actually S-LOG but the sony codec and bit rate issue. I know I titled it "S-LOG2 Sucks", but I think it probably only sucks at 8 bit 4:2:0 100mbps and as soon as Sony gives us 10 bit 4:2:2... this whole fix will probably be unnecessary. I hope that clears things up for those of you who were about to be like "THIS IDIOT HAS NO IDEA WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT"
Okay bye bye!
Dunna Did It
Would it be better if you record externally with 8 Bit 4:2:2 ? Or is 10 Bit 4:2:2 the only option?
That’s actually the next test! After I began my testing, I bought the Ninja V so I didn’t include that in this video (also, it would have made it very long and most people don’t have the ninja v) but I’m gonna be doing more testing with the ninja and 8 bit 4:2:2
Awesome! Please Let me know if it works👍
Yep, that is exactly the problem. My ancient BMPCC shoots 1080p, but full cRAW or Prores. Its far easier to grade in post than the A6xxx. Not because it has better slog but because there is just so much information in the underlying files. Lack of aggressive chroma subsampling plus decent bit rate/depth work wonders! The fix in the A6xxx is to put more information in the files via a hack - shoot to the right and boost the color.
Kinda kills some of the advantages of s-log but thats the only way with 8 bit and the subsampling Sony use in these models.
Thats actually a really nice idea...slog was never designed for highly compressed 8bit 100mbit Footage in the first place, so the artefacts are to be expected, as h264/5 throws away mostly color in areas that have little differentiation in them esp. in the lower exposed parts of an image. That ofc mostly affects slog 2 and particularly skintones where smooth gradients are very important. Thanks for this nice idea!
Btw: Filmconvert is another way to make sony slog 2 look really good! Its really good with less then ideal footage, can cover up a lot of things and make the image more „filmic“ if you will... :)
Try this instead: set Gamma to SLOG-2 but change the Color Mode to ITU709 Matrix (rather than S-Gamut). Problem solved, colors are sweet with no weird tint, and can be pushed in any direction without that blotchy stuff. Leave Saturation at 0, in addition to way better color mapping the ITU mode adds just enough Sat to set a solid baseline that can go anywhere.
Caleb from DSLR Video Shooter taught me that
Thanks. I'm going to try your settings. I'm shooting some test night scenes tonight. I'm curious how SLog2 will handle it.
@@AllThingsFilm1 How was it?
THIS IS THE RIGHT WAY ! THE TUTORIAL IS COMPLETE WASTE IF YOU ARE USING APSC CAM
Thank you, I should give that a try. Also, do you have any recommendations for the other settings? (Black level, color depth etc.)
I know this is an older video now but like you said in the video, low contrast and saturation is an over simplification of what slog is. With that in mind, correcting slog is not as simple as boosting saturation and contrast. You need to apply a rec709 lut to correct that because it is doing more "scientific" corrections than just boosting those two things. The outcome of the rec709 lut looks like it's just cranking up saturation and contrast but it is doing it in the "proper" way. BUT in the end I think you're correct with saying that a camera with 8bit color just isn't meant to have that much flexibility in correcting/grading. So yeah just shoot a flat profile that's not log and I think you'll have more options in post.
Use S-LOG is bright settings like broad daylight, use a "Cine" profile for dark settings.
cine 4 to be precise.
HLG or standard profile is better for low light.
that´s true... as in dark set you don´t need to dinamic range , slog has not sense then.
@@yanccoliphotofilms1855 i think trues, because what detail in low light when on lighting, and we want dynamic range
just use cine4 for everything, slog2/slog3 is just always grainy, get a F1.4 to F2.8 lens and film with 100iso and you get great quality, crank up the sharpness to +5 with 4K and +10 with 1080 120/100fps, just works trust me, ive been using slog 2 for almost 2 years and i just dont get the same quality. because of the iso.
BRAVO dude. I cannot describe how this has been helpful. Such a simple approach to the problem you had and what to do to fix it. I like it
It's not perfect but it definitely helps!
I've been looking for this video for 3 years, I've been avoiding slog for this exact reason. 💯 % subscribing.
tested on my sony rx 100 V and it is perfect!!!! tested it in resolve . Slog2 Sgamut saturation to +32 camera setting is great handling the lack of saturation issue in such a poor codec. I dial saturation down to 30 in resolve and now i can actually play with the footage without fear of braking it too soon and results are amazing ether playing with your own grades or using luts, no more fear of using full power of slog2. THANKS DUDE!!!
Yes! You are the winner!!!! I tried 7 different RUclipsrs colour profiles and you was right! For some reason all of them resulted in horrible footage with very difficult ways to be adjusted. Your profile is simply applying the rec709, turn saturation down a bit and job done! Thank you so much! And i also tried cine4 and hlsg(if I’m not wrong) and for some reasons my footage was over exposed (probably it needed very high ISO). But yeah yours was test n.3 I made and if absolutely perfect! Thank you so much!😊😊😊
What do i win? I like being a winner!!!
Just bought an A6700 and found this video. Working with slog2 for now, looking forward to using this vid as a basis!
Funnily enough I ended up doing the same thing but I was a bit more conservative with the saturation in camera. Glad to see I'm not the only one with this problem! Thanks for your help.
Haha I just go all out! I’ve heard some people say that they’ve had issues with colors clipping if they go all the way like this but I haven’t run into it
This great Dunna, If you're white that is. I have gone trough everything and as a black person having darker skin just results in madness in color so a fix for darker skin is you simply need to add a fill light to illuminate you and it should hold us pretty well.
I can totally see how that would be an issue. There are definitely different IRE levels that make sense for different skin tones. Ideally, this fix should still be helpful once you get your exposure correct but obviously you’ve got to do what you have to do to get that exposure correct in the first place like you mentioned.
This is the first time color profiles has made sense. Thank you for explaining this in normal human terms! 😁😁
So glad to hear that it was helpful Curtis!
In my experience, I usually use slog for bright shots and use cine 4 for darker ones, I usually find that I get better results with that. If you want to make a video comparing the two profiles on different environments and listing detailed specs (pp, gamma, black level, etc), I think that would be great! I'm trying to do that myself but it's nice to have a second opinion and I'm also second guessing whether to film it.
Nice! Thanks for the suggestion Zach!
I was looking for this problem on the whole web. Thank you so much!
Thanks a lot für sharing. In fact i also struggled filming with Slog2. I changed to film in HLG3 (Details -5).But your explanation definitely helps me to go back to S-Log to film in low light with S-log. Thank you so much!
I had the same problem and always sticked to cine4, thanks for sharing the fix
Love this, and I'm only 3 minutes in! I have a Sony a7iii, S-Log 2 was a feature I couldn't wait to get but I see myself using HLG3 more than anything else. People are very hit and miss with it, but it works so nicely for my workflow. Really looking forward to trying your methods!
Nice! Hopefully it helps you out! I think I’ll primarily still shoot HLG as well but it’s nice to have S-Log as an option
@@dunnadidit Absolutely! they all have their uses. I'd never shoot S-Log (or any log) in a dark environment or something that isn't lit well. Cine is a run and gun, HLG kinda just works but doesn't give you as much flexibility! I'm on a shoot for the next two days, might put this to the test and do a video on my own channel of results! I'll credit you obviously! Thanks for the tips!
@@dunnadidit dunna, mann, so after all this testing, your still gonna use HLG? lol
Sung Kim - Lol I’ll use slog now when it would be handy, super bright and dynamic scenes that I need to have high dynamic range. But yeah I’ll probably mostly shoot hlg because it’s easier to deal with.
@@dunnadidit dont worry man, when sony a7siii comes out, slog will be king again
Got my first camera (sony zv-1) and learning how to use log footage for the dynamic range. I filmed a little intro to a video in s-log 2 and the clips were basically unusable lmao. It's almost like the camera didn't capture any color. I took your advice to increase the saturation to +32 and OMG it's so much easier to color correct. I like the footage so much now that I don't even feel the need to grade it. Thank you!!
Personally, I might avoid slog with the zv1 but if you’re happy with it! That’s what really matters!
@@dunnadidit Yeah, the shadows are a bit noisy in log on the zv1.. maybe cause the iso increases to 1K? I have aperture at 1.8 for a blurry background and 1/50 shutter speed @ 24fps. I'm a newbie...
It has more to do with the sensor size than anything. With smaller sensors, you’re generally going to see more noise in equal situations, but shooting log becomes harder to grade if your signal is less clean to start.
@@dunnadidit Really helpful, thanks man!
iv been using a6300 for the past 2 years and sometimes shoot with slog2 , and i always get this problem ,i thought thats my fault until i watched your video , thank you so much
Glad it helped!
So many things wrong with this that I would need a counter video to show you, Your original problem is that you don't seem to comprehend what LOG is to start off. The reason it looks like there is no contrast or saturation is that logarithmic data is not supposed to be view on a rec709 display. The primaries are not placed the same on the gamut - so raising saturation in post is literally just raising the wrong color space in your display. So that is the first thing - you have to convert the colorspace first before attempting to add saturation. Especially using s-gamut which is the default but way too large a gamut for that camera and especially to just blast the saturation. So problem one is not knowing how to color grade.
Next problem - 8 bit footage is a luma value - not a saturation or color value. So in 8 bit recording which only has a maximum of 235 shades from black to white the steps of which is the gradient and is responsible for the dark to light colors as opposed to 10 -bit, where you have 1023 steps of gradient the transition from color to color is much smoother in 10 bit.
Now on somethings you won't notice that, but in shadows or underlit stuff having each stop of 8 bit S-Log2 having only around 20 shades per stop - details in shadows and or gradient blends in color will not be smooth.
To reiterate this fact - You can have a video recorded in black and white in 8-bit and black and white in 10 bit - which of course has no saturation.
And i noticed in your comments below that you someone asked about 10 -bit. There is no possible way to shoot 10-bit with any of the Sony alpha cameras - external recording only helps the chroma value of 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 but - this leads me to what I think part of your problem is which is chroma noise from subsampling in the codec XAVC is a good version of h.264 but some of your chroma problems is underexposing of a delivery codec - if you use your ninja and record Dnx or Prores you see a gain in using that too.
Exposing is more than just the camera too - as you said in your video - you can add a light or a reflection - because only having 8-bits is also about light. Everything you had in this video is underexposed. The one side of your face at 70% is only exposing that side of the face correctly - by not adding a light or reflector - you are really under exposing the other side of the face - and as explained above - if you are in 8-bit you have to concentrate more on getting food light because there is less information to play with.
By the way you can grade the perceived contrast and saturation by using curves with yrgb all on and apply an S-curve as soon as you do - you will see that the contrast and saturation will go up as you apply it. But if you have limitations in your color grading ability - use a technical LUT to get your image from LOG to rec709 and then start grading to taste.
I know this comment is rather old, 4years lol, but I wanted to ask..
If Im shooting on the a7iii (8-Bit) in SLog2, then which colour mode would you use? Is S-Gammut3.Cine good? And I wont need to boost saturation in camera?
As that is an option I see in Davinci, so I can convert it to 709
@@michaelfrymus S-Gammut3.Cine is fine
@@JimRobinson-colorsI have Sony ZV-E10, I’ve tried to shoot in log and it falls apart in post. Settings I have tried using are slog 2 and sgamut3.cine. Any suggestions, should I change the sgamut3.cime? Sorry I’m pretty bad with all this stuff
I'm am SO glad youtube reccomended me this video!! i've had exactlly the same issues with my a6300 and even tho i understood all the issue with not having 10-bit color or 4:2:2, there are plenty of people that use it and report no problems (like you said). One of the things i found out on my experiments, that you didn't metion and can maybe try is that by adjusting the contrast using CURVES instead of the slider, i had WAY more control over the "blockyness" and separation of colors (to the point where many times i got rid of it)! it must have something to do with luminance values of colors being torn apart by the codec and enhanced by the contrast slider or the luts, but i'm not sure.
Now i'm gonna try your solution, and maybe i will finally have peace using it, so thank you ❤ you just earned one more subscription.
Nice! Great suggestion!
Thank you thank you thank you! I understand this is not the best way for some more seasoned videographer / colourist, but after such a long time shooting with Slog (even grading with resolve) i always find my 8bit s-log is a bit frustrating. Dunna it works great now and i am happy to use my camera to do more work!
Also there is a good side effect - the footage looks great by itself if you are looking for a low-contrast de-sat look! However i think for me +32 is a bit much in my A7Riii and A7iii, so i dialed down to +15, add a little S-curve in resolve and looks great already! no need LUT!
Thanks again!
WOOOAH this worked! Tried it in S-Log3 as well, works there too. I can't tell you how great this is, man. Instant subscribe from me! This was the MAIN reason I try not to use any of the S-Logs on my Sony because of these botchy artifacts. But this setting with S-Log2 fixes some other color artifacts as well within gradients in darker areas. Of course, I see see the 8-bit banding rolloff, but without the color artifacts it's actually not bad and is useable. My workaround used to be applying the HSL secondary controls in Premiere Pro and just selecting the botches, reducing saturation and matching the color to the rest of the skin, but that is time-consuming. As of now, it seems that I won't have to do that. One of the most valuable RUclips videos I've watched in a long time LOL. Thanks for that!
I've never really enjoyed the workflow of color correcting and colorgrading S-Log. Also my results have not really been the as good as I wanted, but that saturation tip seems helpful. Thanks! 👍
Maybe this will be helpful! Cheers!
One year later finally discovered this video. Thank you
My pleasure!
I literally just redid your test and came to the exact same result (on an a7iii !). It kinda makes sense in theory. now, there might be some camera pro out there pointing out that some other incamera settings are completely wrong for shooting Slog (my guess is it has to do with colour mode, conversion or import settings) but it is definitely a huge improvement for my current situation!! thx so much for this. One thing I did however felt was a loss of sharpness.
Shooting on an A7iii I personally use HLG3 for the most part as I felt from the beginning that it offers the best look with minimum post effort, but you will struggle to expose shots like in a house where there's a lot of windows.
Glad to hear that it worked for you too. In the end I really feel like it just comes down to the codec. And by increasing the saturation, you’re just giving yourself a better shot at being able to recover the colors.
Thanks for running the test again!
i find this to be one of the best advices for when filming in slog on 8bit sonys.
Man oh man..! I have watched tons of videos on s-log because I’ve been having a similar problem where I was seeing that blotchiness in kinda purplish tones on my skin and none of the videos gave it like this... all those pro’s must be aware of it but none of them mentioned. Well actually I’ve stumbled upon a blog post from cody blue only I guess saying he prefers cranking up the saturation and it looks better but didn’t really explain why. And thinking my problem was totally unrelated, I thought it could have gone worse so didn’t even bother giving it a try. I was looking for cine4 profiles now but this video just opened a whole new thing for slog again. Thanks a lot man... great work. Subbed... :)
That’s great to hear! I’m glad the video helped!!
1. Not sure WHY I hadn't subscribed yet... took care of that lol.
2. You CAN still edit Lumetri Colors after you apply a LUT, but it's more "where" you use it. For LUTS, if you apply a LUT into the "Creative" tab rather than the "Basic Correction" tab, you will still retain the footage data to freely edit your Lumetri data, even w/ the LUT active, and w/o "pancaking" data on top of the LUT and footage falling apart. Of course this isn't DIRECTLY related to your solution for blotchiness which I'm trying out now, but I just saw you using LUTS in Basic Correction, and I know how annoying it is to have to turn the FX on and off for reference. Took me a while to learn this, but hope it's of use to you Dunna. Thanks again for your content bro!
1. Thanks for subscribing!
2. Totally! I typically use corrective luts like the ones I used in the video in the basic correction tab. Then in the creative tab I will use any creative luts I might want. But from time to time I’ll use a corrective lut in the creative tab so that I can use the basic tab to adjust exposure going “into” the lut. Or sometimes I’ll just add another lumetri instance prior to the one with the lut on it.
Dunna Did It solid man, again great content! Your Edelkrone vs Rhino video got me on board lol, saved me a few grand!
For the underexposed stuff you can change the metering mood to spot, if is a subject in this case that you want to expose properly without care about the rest as you said ! Big up bro !
After struggling with SLOG2 a couple years I came to the conclusion that the best looks for Sony A7 series cameras are the baked in looks, like cine 2 and cine 4. The logs are just too robust for the 8 bit codec. Then, I bought a RED, and wow. Yes, I know that’s like comparing a BB gun to a Howitzer, but RED raw files are nuts. No longer do I have to struggle with grading because they pretty much take whatever you throw at them and then some.
My only experience with RAW/RAW-ish is my Canon EOS M with Magic Lantern (12-BIT setting) and Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Original (ProsRes). No denying, both these cameras are simply "filmic" right off the senor but the low-light is hard to work with on both. I'm looking into something similar but with better low-light. I'm sure i can get close enough with my a6300 but i would like to dodge that process in editing. RED seems to be my best bet. I'm not a fan of Blackmagic's MFT and now Super35 sensor product because they no longer have that Filmic look right off the sensor. They stopped using Fairchild sensors but i have a feeling its because ARRI and RED made a big deal about it.
This video is really helpful because I also shooting in slog 2 and 3 with proper exposure but same issue I like this trick now I also feel confident to use it again because I started to move on Cine4 but thanks to your video now again slog 2
Great to hear!
i'm gonna try this 100%..another issue i have with S-log2 is that sometimes the image is so low-saturated that even cranking up the saturation to the extreme it barely shows up any color, and if it does there's the whole pixel/blotchy mess that you show in this video..thanks!
How are you correcting it afterwards? Sounds like maybe you need to use a conversion lut as well as some extra saturation.
@@dunnadidit when that happens i try to find a good middle ground in some way, sometimes i even used a couple of adjustment layers with lumetri with changes to specific colors..i've tried an Slog to rec709 lut once but the result was so awful that i gave up trying after a month.
A few days ago i went to the beach to get some material to practice color grading, i've tried under exposing a little bit and that worked on some clips but not enough..i still have a pretty much black and white image despite the almost sunset colors
That’s really interesting. I can’t say that I share that experience.
The extra Canadian way you said "Maybe a bit too much spray tan ther Dunna" killed me.
Haha I thought it sounded more like a Minnesota accent lol.
@@dunnadidit I heard Minnesota, but I'm in Wisconsin, so I hear Minnesota a lot lol.
bashfoal - Lol well I’ll take that as a sign that I’m an excellent impressionist haha 😂
I m a beginner...Your tutorial was helped me a lot...Thanks
Another great video from Dunna. Good info to tuck away if I ever get back to owning a Sony camera.
Thanks dude!!
This was a great video. I've recently switched over to Sony and this issue is something that I've struggled with. Glad to see the "expose your face with zebras at 70" method, I just talked about that in my video yesterday because it helped me finally get a better overall exposure in S-LOG2. Will have to try the saturation setting as well, thanks!
Thanks so much! After finishing the whole thing I do wish I exposed it a little brighter, maybe the 70IRE over more of my face... but with that saturation trick I find it a bit more forgiving!
Clever way to deal with this annoying issue! Thank you! Can't wait to try it. Subscribed to your channel.
Interesting! Thanks for sharing.
🧡
Wow. This is a game changer. I gave up on slog2 after some early trials and I've been using a PP6 since then. I decided to give your idea a try and the results were very good. Yes, it seems like there should be a more elegant fix, but it seems to work for me, so I'll go with whatever gets the job done. Thank you very much.
Nice! I’m glad it was helpful!
Hi man, I loved this video. It is so to-the-point and easy to understand for beginners. Simplifying something for others is the hardest thing. And explaining it practically is what everyone wants. Thanks so much for doing this. Am subscribing...yayyyyy :)
You don’t get usable dynamic range if you going to expose like that because it’s way underexposed you need to expose your shadows until they above 40 ire it’s or overexpose for 2 stops if you don’t know how to deal with histogram or waveforms
I hear you... I've tried "overexposing" as well, but I find that my midtones never fully recover from that. They always look weird and washed out. And then on top of that, the highlights get super blown out and unrecoverable. Again, I have a feeling that this is because of the codec, bit rates etc from these cameras and might not be the case if we had 10 bit 4:2:2. But like I said in the video, I would prefer to blow out my highlights a little and get my skin looking better and this method (skin to approx 70IRE) seems to have worked best for me in my testing (believe me, I tried a TON of different exposure options). I appreciate the input!
Dunna Did It I have a video called get the most out of Sony A7III I shot it entirely in SLOG2 and every clip I tried expose +2 stops. There was a clip I shot 51200 ISO but because I exposed right I don’t have weird artifacts, and a pro tip not to use s-gamut at all if you want to prevent codec from falling apart, try to use rec.709 matrix with s-log2/3 gammas you will get even better results
@@SUVO_RAW Old comment, but hopefully you can still help... So, when using the A7iii in SLog2, I only have the S-Gammut, S-Gammut3.Cine, and ITU709 Matrix color modes available, plus the random other ones. So, which mode would you use???
I shot test footage outdoors in a high contrast during mid-day sun, and the colours using ITU709 looked really weird!
And I converted it in Davinci from SLog to 709 - The colour space I had to leave it as it was as it got even worse. Not sure if ITU709 is ideal then.
I've been there too... but the problem with slog is not SLOG itself. It is sony mirrorless lineup that just records 8 bit 4:2:0 and literally don't have enough colors and luminance values to push slog to its real potential.
And not to mention that you only can record 100mb/s which SUCKS SO BAD.
I moved to my gh5s from my a6300 and I could not be happier😃
Yeah totally! Hopefully they’ll be giving us 10 bit 4:2:2 in the next iteration of cameras.
can you make the best cinema sony camera settings?
Nice video man, it was very simple and helpful. I love it!!
Thanks so much!!
Such a wonderful trick as I’m completely new to Sony, this helps a ton. I had watched a few video tutorials before this, it was recommend to set the Zebra to 107+ for all. That was why it was overexposed on the face of the subject. It was my first time shooting with Sony for the clients. I wished I had watch this before the shoot. Thanks for the help, anyway
I've been having this issue for a while on my A7iii when I push the saturation or a LUT that pushes saturation. Thanks for the fix! I have been puzzling over it for a while.
Glad to help!!
So Dunna I had the same difficulty when I first got my sony a6500 and shooting slog2. I totally ditched it and used cine instead. But a few weeks ago I did a huge research into it and finally managed to figure it out. Actually slog2 has two distinct advantages. Increased dynamic rage and BIGGER GAMUT (AKA S-GAMUT) it is not just desaturated, It is actually wider than Rec709. Long story short you have to first use a correction LUT to map it back to Rec709 using sony's official correction lut (instead of bumping the saturation slider) this way the gamut part is corrected and then use s-curve to correct the dynamic range and contrast. Trust me it works like a charm 😉
Actually, I tried this in this video. I used Sony’s supplied S-Log2 to Rec709 lut and had the exact same problem as when I cranked the saturation. I definitely understand what’s going on when I’m using SLOG2. Like I put on a title in the video and in a pinned comment here, I just simplified things for the sake of the video. That said, I have tried using the proper conversion luts (of course I tried that first) but still had the same issues. I also tried a variety of different exposure methods but regardless, had the same issues, overexposing helped a bit but then came into different issues with the mid tones being flat and unrecoverable and anything that was a little darker in the scene had the splotchy issue. So unfortunately the Sony correction lut isn’t the answer for me here. Thanks for the input though!
@@dunnadidit I have to apologize for jumping to conclusion without first watching the video completely. Thank you so much for making this point clear to me. And thanks for putting the time amd effort into making these videos. I totally appreciate it. Keep up the good work 👌
No stress! I appreciate that you were trying to help! It’s an awesome an helpful community here! Thanks for the kind words!
Dunna Did It Search for joo works tutorial, he made a perfect lut for S Log and it’s free too
Just what I have been looking for!
You're really underexposing it in my opinion. The window should go over 107+ because otherwise the rest of the scene is underexposed. In a perfect setup, you would have a light or you'd block the light coming in from outside so that there's less contrast between the subject and the window. Slog2 really hates underexposing and makes skin tones look crap. I've also had problems with Slog2 when shooting indoors at weddings especially with windows in the bg. The dynamic range can not save bad lighting so I'm just overexposing the windows so that the subject is perfectly exposed. This gives the best results for me.
I agree that I could do with a little more exposure and let the window go a bit... that said, even when I did that in the video and exposed more for the skin tones, I still care out with the same issues with the blotchiness. In fact, in any test I’ve done... underexposed, overexposed, whatever, the blotchiness continued to be a problem. That said, cranking the saturation helps. Also, other color spaces seem to work better than s-gamut and the problem seems to be much worse in premiere than davinci resolve. Haha I should put this in the description as an update lol
Thats some good tips right there. I have not been wanting to mess with S-Log so I have been shooting in HLG2. Maybe one day I will be brave lol! Nice video!
Thanks Paul! I typically shoot hlg lately too, but it’s nice to have the option.
Dunna Did It for sure!
Nice Vid! I've opted the last several months to simply shoot in ITU709 in both with some slight tweaks. For my workflow and needs.... punchy color, high contrast and sharpness SOC are needed and the 6300 does a phenomenal job for that :) I messed around for a year with varying results with LOG but at the end of the day I'm not a colorist and certainly not in an 8bit space and ultimately my stock footage sales actually increased just doing it this way... :)
Nice! Thanks for sharing!!
so if i shot in ITU709 I don’t need to convert to rec709 in Post?
@@thomasshakelton No need, it’s baked in and captured at REC709 value/curve. Using any kind of LOG on anything below 10-bit is tricky and overall limited. I’ve moved on to the FX3 and shooting in 10-bit and the difference on this specific topic is truly remarkable. For 8-bit capture I highly recommend testing and finding suitable in camera looks and baking them in. Or just using 709 and use the physic space to achieve a look.
With my a6300 I will shoot in SLOG2 and I will grade but I also do so in very good lighting and knowing I want to achieve a very “regular” look.
@@avbh-d3i thanks appreciate it, ITU709 makes the skin way to magenta for me S-Gamut plus the rec709 correction is posts does the job pretty good. all the best
@@thomasshakelton may I know how to convert to rec709 in post?
Ok. I gotta try this. I'm SO colorblind that the yellow/ red skin blotches don't even register for me, so fixing them has been IMPOSSIBLE. I can tell something isnt right, but can't get there. Cine 4 has been good for me, and looks similar to the Dunna Fix so I'll have to try your method and see how my eyes fare!
Nice! Let me know if it helps! Cine4 is solid too!
thanks dude! i'm going to give this a shot. i stopped using s-log a long time ago as well because of this same issue. well, this and i was also getting a lot of noise/grain in my footage when using s-log. I started using cine 2 and cine4 and got a way better result. I'm still shooting on the a6300 so i feel ya on that 8 bit. i need to just step it up already and upgrade cameras. i swear i feel like i've been back and forth with picture profiles and settings since i bought this camera a few years back. haha.. thanks again bro. i'll give this a shot.
Yeah! I totally hear you! I hope this helps a bit! It’s not ideal but it sure seems to be better for me.
Gerald made a good video were he found out that slog is in legal range and not full range on sony's mirrorless cameras, he found an in-camera solution that could help a lot when grading
He's the best. I definitely tried his legal - full range thing but it didn't make any difference for this specific problem.
@@dunnadidit ahh okay
Thank you so much for posting this Dunna! I’ve been struggling with this on the last few projects I’ve had. I’ll have to try this!
Give it a shot! I hope it helps!
Dunna Did It will do!
Excellent video!I use a A6500 for underwater filming and so far got the best results with S-log2 and S-gamut3 cine (and lots of cursing in post!). Underwater is a very contrast environment and lights are only useful for close shots. If you are deep you get no colors and dark shadows but a bright surface in the background..What settings would you recommend in this situation?
Off topic but I love that you have Enders Gamer and other books in the series on your bookshelf!
All of them! Favorite series of all time. Every other book on the shelves is my wife’s but all the Ender books are mine lol
Dunna Did It Ha! that’s awesome!
hi, I'm getting noise on black objects in slog2 even on 2stop exposure, my iso was 1250, what should i do to fix this?
How did you get your iso lower then 800? My A7!!! camera won't let me set below 800 in Slog2 mode
Every camera is different for base iso. A6600 has base iso of 500 in slog2
Tip! Next time, you can attach a car screen to the windows from the outside, so it wont blow out that much anymore.
Had that problem for ages and just used Neat Video v5 yesterday to build a ridiculous amount of noise profiles for my A7III to remove the macro blocking present when I shoot in Slog2. The results look really nice (especially when you convert from Slog2 to Slog3 in post and then grade), but it's slooooow. I'm looking forward to trying your suggestion Dunna. If I can get this to work without NR, I'm a happy bunny :-)
Hopefully it takes some of that hassle out for you! Obviously you’re losing some of the potential advantages of having extra range in your colors too but I’ve never had any problems with it clipping colors still.
Dunna Did It It does indeed, thanks a lot. I tried it today and it definitely holds up a lot better, but I still found a couple of blocky nasties on my fiancée’s face. Slog2 on the A7 III is really prissy. I really don’t want to jump onto that bandwagon, but part of me hopes the A7S III will solve all of those problems (I mean dear God if it doesn’t). Until then it’s Neat Video and Saturation at 32+ 😉👍
Glad it helped a bit. Maybe don’t tell your fiancé that they have “blocky nasties” on their face or they might get the wrong idea 😂
Yeah hopefully the a7siii does better. Even just the bigger pixels should help. I notice a difference between my a6600 and my a7iii so fingers crossed🤞🏻
Dunna Did It 😄 Luckily she doesn’t hang around RUclips anymore. Fingers crossed on whatever Sony’s gonna deliver end of July. Don’t wanna have to sell all my gear again 😶
Wow man this confirms my suspicions about this. I had always wondered if cranking saturation would help preserve that info in camera and help out in post because the information would not be stripped out of that weak codec and you wouldn't be trying to restore something in post that's just not there resulting in artifacts.
👍🏻😁
I may be in the minority here, but boosting saturation in post without first correcting your exposure settings with the color wheels in premire is why your'e having issues. I suggest everyone watch Gerald Undone's video on Slog and Hlg with color swatches as he explains how the curves work and how to get your footage baselined in rec709. The relationship between color and exposure plays a huge key on accuracy and luminance, which is the issue you're having as you havent corrected your exposure before messing with color
I'm struggling with this too, with Sony a7 III. So in this videos what LUT are you using if any? And what are the modifications you did in post regarding basic settings?
This trick just saved me from that blotch skin.. thanks a lot. But right now I'm struggling with another issue... noise! No matter how much I overexpose, the shadows always have that terrible noise... but here in your shots, but in tests and the introduction part, I see a lot less noise. Did you use denoise or is it like this directly from the camera? If so, what is your secret? :)
I use Resolve17 denoise. 3frames, select 'better', then crank up as least as possible. I think denoise is not included in the free version.
i've been struggling with this withmy a6500 too this was good to see. Does this issue persist with A7SIII?
I have / had a similar problem with my GH4 and V-Log. When I throw on the rec709 lut from Panasonic some of the footage is way too red and hard to fix. I found it mostly when the white balance was slightly off. Somebody made a fixed version of the rec709 lut that dials back the saturation heaps that fixes it a bit. But mostly I try to get the WB right. Sometimes if it is really bad I try and fix it without a lut at all. Now I've upgraded to the GH5 but I am yet to grade any of that luscious 10 bit footage but I can't wait to try. I still have a bucketload of 8 bit GH4 footage to grade though. Thanks Dunna this was great 😀
That’s very interesting! Thanks for sharing!
OMG thank you so much. That's what i have been struggling for long assssss time!. your my savior.
version fine? Also are the extra plug-ins worth the extra $100?
Thanks a lot for this vid! What's your bet on HLG3 vs. SLOG2 with all cranked up saturation?
HLG3 doesn't give you as much dynamic range but I use it pretty regularly. Its a great PP with lots of flexibility and it's much easier to grade.
Awesome video! Soooooo helpful, I was getting so fed up with SLOG
Hopefully this helps you out a bit!
great video! realy helpful, thanks from brasil!
Such a useful fix tutorial 👍🏼 soo easy to follow 😒
Awesome Dunna! This will help me a lot! Just picked up the a6500! Do you have any tips on the quality loss with 1080p 120fps?
Lol, my fix for the quality loss was to shoot 60fps instead haha. I avoided 120p like the plague for so long.
Dunna Did It thxs man did you notice a big difference in quality?
The 60p definitely looked cleaner for sure. The 120p always got a bit soft.
this worked wonders..thanks for this
Great to hear!!
Great video!!! My a6300 wont go below ISO 800 in slog2...What gives?? any suggestions would be much appreciated!
Nice man! Thanks a lot! Starting in vid with the a7iii and this helps a lot!
Thanks so much for watching! I hope this helps!
Try the custom settings I share and let me know how it goes. I also use an a7iii. And nonetheless I completely agree with all of Dunna's philosphy.
@@sonya7tutorials252 I shot HLG3 and I'm pretty happy with it! thank you for your answer! :)
Hey, i have a Sony A6500 and i'm using the setting from EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony Cameras for some time now. Since i get the settings all my problems with SLOG-2 are gone, simply overexpose for 1 till 2 stops, depends on the surroundings and the look you are after.
Cool! I haven’t used eoshd for a while but if I remember correctly, they do increase the saturation don’t they?
@@dunnadidit For the SLOG-2 profile they decrease the saturation to -15
Oh that’s so interesting!
HAHA WOW! I am coming from Panasonic where I could navigate the menu with my eyes closed... I can barely navigate Sony menus with both hands while a tutorial for Sony menus plays on one side and the owners manual is open on the other side! Dunna is navigating these menus like a NINJA! haha... good work... I can't wait for the a7Siii to be here to give us proper 10 bit and the latitude to really push log to its limits like I can with my S1H!
Haha 😂 I’ve never really had that much trouble with the Sony menus. I always felt like people made a bigger deal out of it than it was. But I do have a theory! With certain things in life, it makes it easier to then learn another similar thing. Like when you learn one instrument, it’s easier to then learn another one. But I think menus is the opposite... once you learn one, it becomes HARDER to learn another one because you’re fighting all your instincts and muscle memory. But also I’m a huge nerd who thinks about these things lol 😂
I hope you get this. So if in able to shoot at 4:2:2 10 bit what would be the best setting for it?
My experience with 4:2:2 10 bit is that just regular old standard SLOG3 works great
@@dunnadidit you meant slog2?
Nope, I’ve been shooting SLOG3 now that I have 10bit. But SLog2 works nicely as well. I don’t have these same issues on 10 bit
@@dunnadidit I appreciate your time for this a lot! Cant thank you enough! If u are ever in Las Vegas let me know. I got the A7Siii and going crazy with the picture profiles.
Thanks, I'm finding lowering the "Col Boosting" in Resolve gets rid of the blotchiness.
Do you film the talks and the studio with the a7iii? and which lens? The quality in your studio its just soooo amazing man and crispy sharp! Any secret ingredients?
For this video it was the a7iii with the Tamron 17-28 I believe. Honestly, setting up proper lighting makes a big difference
I’ve been playing around with Slog 2 and I also found it frustrating working with saturation. I’m definitely going to try this setting out and compare with previous shots. Thank you!
I hope it helps!
Pure gold. Thanks a lot
if you use s-log in 8bit , try to work with aces color space that will blow your mind
Hmmm, I’ll have to look into this.
Im new to this. But where do you change the color space
Why don't you use a LUT? Did the red blocking appear with the use of a Sony Log LUT? Slog2 to 709 for example?
Yes it does. I think I even demonstrated that somewhere in the video if I remember correctly.
Are you familiar with the Leeming LUTs for Sony? Those of us who are have been doing this for a while. Although, even those have their own pitfalls and can yield unexpected results the first couple of times using them.
Yeah, I use the leeming luts most of the time. Actually I found out after this that he uses this trick in his s-log too! He gets you to crank up the saturation in your picture profile. I find his exposure rules a bit difficult to follow all the time but getting a monitor with luts has helped a lot because I can just shoot with his luts already applied.
Very Helpful thank you!
My pleasure!!
Change youre S-Gamut setting to the 705 one, it will help before you even take it to post
New to camera stuff.. I know how to do that, but what exactly will it do?
@@nicholomo You can do it from where you set the picture profile. Pick 7 then hit the right side of the rocker switch. Go down to where it says Color Mode and change it to ITU709 Matrix.
@@TommyMartin I see it, thank you🙏🏻
I believe you should not expose the face „to the right“, like right of center of the histogram, when using S-log. ETTR when doing portraits is wrong. It’s about quantization steps, also known as „banding“ if they become noticeable. There will always be quantization steps, with 8 bit, 10 bit, 12 bit, 16 bit. They will just become smaller. But shooting on a 8 bit camera, those quantization steps are huge. The whole brightness range is divided by 256. Now why is that a problem when shooting faces with S-log and moving the skin brightness to the brighter parts of the image?
Here‘s why:
Using S-Log and applying the "expose to the right" (ETTR) technique, where the histogram is shifted to the utmost right without clipping important details, can have specific implications for detail preservation and overall image quality, particularly with respect to skin tones in a portrait scene. Let’s break down these implications:
### S-Log and ETTR
1. **Principle of ETTR**: The ETTR technique is often used to maximize the amount of data captured by the sensor, reducing noise in the shadows by increasing the overall exposure.
2. **S-Log Encoding**: S-Log is designed to capture a wide dynamic range by compressing the highlights and expanding the shadows and midtones. This ensures more gradations and detail in the darker and midtone areas, which aligns with human perception.
### Potential Issues with Skin Tones
1. **Skin Tones Exposure**: Typically, skin tones are best exposed around 40-50% of the brightness scale, corresponding to around 100-128 on an 8-bit scale (0-255).
2. **Shifting Histogram to the Right**: If the exposure is increased so that the skin tones are in the brighter parts of the image, the following might happen:
- **Quantization in Highlights**: In S-Log encoding, the quantization steps in the highlights are wider. If skin tones, which contain fine detail and subtle gradations, are pushed into these regions, there could be a loss of detail because the quantization is coarser in the highlight range.
- **Potential Clipping**: Background elements may get clipped, and some details in the skin tones might not be captured accurately due to the limited bit allocation in the highlights.
### Comparison with Linear Profile
- **Linear Profile**: In a linear profile, the quantization is uniform across the entire brightness range. If skin tones are exposed properly within the intended range (100-128), the detail preservation is consistent.
- **S-Log Profile with ETTR**: When using ETTR with S-Log, the skin tones are pushed into the brighter regions where S-Log compresses the data, potentially losing some finer details due to the wider quantization steps.
### Optimal Approach for S-Log
1. **Proper Exposure of Skin Tones**: Instead of blindly following the ETTR rule, it’s crucial to ensure that skin tones remain in the intended range where S-Log provides finer gradations (midtones). This ensures the detail and natural appearance of the skin.
2. **Histogram Management**: While it’s beneficial to increase exposure to reduce noise, one should balance it to avoid pushing crucial midtone details (like skin) into the highlight region excessively.
3. **Post-Processing Flexibility**: S-Log footage is designed for post-production. Ensuring proper exposure of key elements like skin tones allows for better flexibility and adjustment during color grading and editing.
### Summary
- **Detail Preservation**: Shifting the histogram to the utmost right using S-Log can lead to a loss of detail in skin tones due to the coarser quantization steps in the highlights.
- **Balanced Exposure**: It’s essential to expose skin tones correctly, keeping them within the midtone range where S-Log provides finer gradations.
- **ETTR with Caution**: While ETTR can reduce noise, it should be applied cautiously, ensuring that important details like skin tones are not pushed too far into the highlight region, thus preserving the natural look and detail of the subject.
In conclusion, while S-Log and ETTR can be powerful tools, they must be used judiciously to avoid losing critical detail in important areas like skin tones. Proper exposure tailored to the subject is key to maximizing the benefits of S-Log encoding.
You've discovered something just like i did 1 year ago. And you know what, I still got rid of S-Log. You know Why?
BEcause why spend times & frustration to go through hell for all those issue, when you can just have the same result very easily, nice contrast, nice saturation, with a diffrent picture profile?
I hear you. Using S-Log is about the flexibility. I probably won’t use it all the time, but when I come up against a situation where it would be handy, it’s still going to be nice to have.
@@dunnadidit i thought like that, too. Like saving it for some special scenaries, special occasions. Ended up didn't use it anymore. Hahaha. HLG ftw. Thanks for your reply anyway.
Great Video, i got a Sony A7ARIII but with Slog 2 i can only go up to 99+, after that no zebras show up, what am i doing wrong?
That’s really odd for slog 2. Are you sure you’re not on slog 3? That being said, every picture profile has a different maximum exposure level if the zebras disappear, then that means you’ve set them higher than the picture profile can go. This is actually one way that you can determine the clipping point of each PP
@@dunnadidit Hey, thx for answering. I found the answer to my own question. Normally SLOG 2 should go up to 107+ and after that blow everything out. I could only get up to 99+. That was because i used some Knee levels in the Picture Profile Settings. I realised that those were on manual and not on auto. You actually need to set them either on auto or on at least 100% in manual mode (which is the same as auto). Do you use knee level or do you have it on auto too?
what's the 'dunna fix' you're referring to? is it just a lut you made to try and fix the splotches?
The Fujifilm X-T3 does this same patchiness in f-log. I'm going to try this hack in Fuji world to see if it helps there too.
Ooh! Very interesting! I thought for sure the XT3 with 10 bit wouldn’t have this! Let me know if it helps.
You sure you have it set to H.265 10bit? I’ve also heard that this problem is exaggerated in premiere pro and people have tried the same grade in da Vinci resolve and haven’t had the same issues
The premiere thing is something me and Gerald have been going back and forth about. We swapped some slog footage and his stuff coming out of da Vinci didn’t have the same issue I was having in premiere. Regardless of whether it was his footage or mine, premiere always had more color problems.
@@dunnadidit it is 10bit 4:2:0 though and not 4:2:2
True!
Bros I have some rushes to edit is there anyway to find which log profile is used on that.I have no idea about the camera guy.
Have you tried Davinci (Free)color transform instead of a lut?
I haven’t tried Davinci yet, but I did send my test files to Gerald Undone and he had less issues with the blocking than I did in premiere.
What's interesting about the transform function is you can shift SLOG2 to Vlog or FLOG and then apply to say the Fuji ETERNA conversion LUT. Gerald can probably explain it better, but it mathematically transforms the data from one gamma/colorspace to another, in a linear fashion, which helps eliminate clipping of the data downstream in the nodes.
What's nice is if you covert straight to 709, you'll probably have to reduce the gain and lower the saturation (~30%) to get a neutral starting point, so less need to boost in camera. The data in the highlights are preserved out of range in your parade.
I think that before édit your video you have to put a Rec709 lut made for your camera first . And then you can do what you want 🙂 it works for me
I simply use some well designed LUT's that I bought and then I just fine tune it from there. Never had any problems with blotchy skin or stuff like that since I don't really wanna deal with color grading it from scratch anyway :D
Doesn’t seem to matter whether I use a lut or go from scratch though. As I demonstrated in the video, that problem was baked into the footage once it was recorded so no matter how you grade it, it’s there. The nice thing about doing this is that I can still use luts, they just look better now.
@@dunnadidit Hmmm weird. Maybe the footage was just too underexposed I guess..? Your example did look fairly noisy in the shadows so maybe it was just the noise pattern "overpowering" the low bitrate so putting any kind of color grade was already too much to handle. I could be talking completely out of my ass here. Did you get the same problems when filming outside with enough light available? I usually overexpose the skin tones by about 1.5 to 2 stops or with skin tones at 60 IRE. And I don't care if a window is blown out I always prioritise the subject (skin). You can only expect so much dynamic range out of these types of cameras.
@@dunnadidit Hmmm weird. Maybe the footage was just too underexposed I guess..? Your example did look fairly noisy in the shadows so maybe it was just the noise pattern "overpowering" the low bitrate so putting any kind of color grade was already too much to handle. I could be talking completely out of my a** here. Did you get the same problems when filming outside with enough light available? I usually overexpose the skin tones by about 1.5 to 2 stops or with skin tones at 60 IRE. And I don't care if a window is blown out I always prioritise the subject (skin). You can only expect so much dynamic range out of these types of cameras.
I did try this as well pushing the exposure higher and the problems persisted. I've done some other shooting outside and followed the typical "overexpose for 2 stops" rule but I always found that when I did that, my mid tones were always weirdly washed out and I could never get them looking natural again. Of course there is always more experimentation to do, I definitely don't want to make it seem like this is the only way... just the way that worked best for me so far. And I totally agree about blowing out a window to get the skin right. In fact, the way that I did it sounds like it lines up with what you're saying. Most of my skin would have been around 60IRE since that side highlight was around 70. But, again, like you said, you can really only expect so much from these cameras haha. It was a super dynamic scene for sure.
I think a big problem with the results you are getting is because you are recording on an sensor that only captures 8 bits, and even though you are capturing S-log you are still not getting nearly as much information as you would with a better camera that has a sensor that records 10 bit or higher. That is a huge downer for Sony users. Not sure why Sony still works with 8 bit sensors on a lot of their cameras. I have the A7iii and notice that even when I use S-log I can't really push the grade too hard or it just breaks apart, even when I really nail the exposure.
Totally! Well, it’s not technically an 8 but sensor, but the video is only captured in 8 bits so I understand what you’re getting at. I think I even mentioned that in the video. Something I’ve discovered since is that the problem is less of a problem in Davinci resolve than it is in premiere so I think at least part of it is coming from the software too.
@@dunnadidit I am still learning Davinci and haven't graded much with that software, but I would think it would be better. However, 8 bit is 8 bit. If the information isn't there it just wont work. Also, and this is for my A7iii and might not pertain to your camera, but Sony recommends setting middle grey exposure at 32% in S-log and whites at 60%. This would mean that your skin tone should be set to around 50 IRE not 70. Sony also recommends that you use S-Gamut for S-log2 and S-Gamut3Cine for S-log 3. Not sure how much that affects color.
It does affect color for sure! And the funny thing is how many people are in the comments yelling at me for under exposing when technically I’m overexposing for the recommendation from Sony lol. You’re right that 8 bit is 8 but, you’ll only be able to push it so far, but that blotchy issue isn’t an issue in Davinci for some reason... only in PP.