The growing hypocrisy of the LGBTQ "safe space" debate (& the demonisation of "cis straight men")
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- Опубликовано: 28 май 2024
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VIDEO DISCLAIMER
Recently, there's been a lot of conversation and debate around "safe spaces" and who is allowed in them on the basis of...profiling people. I do want to emphasise (as I say in the video) that I am not saying that people who cosplay their minority status aren't minorities. I think their is a recent glamorisation of being part of particular minority identities/demographics that really isn't true to the lived experiences of most minorities inhabiting those identities/demographics. It's "trendy" to be oppressed for some of these minorities but, for most, it either isn't trendy or is something they are indifferent to in their day-to-day lives. This has bizarre ramifications when it comes to how minorities are perceived, treated, lumped together and "tokenised" not just by everybody else but especially by cosplaying minorities who increasingly prove themselves incapable of appreciating the very things they are allegedly fighting for: an appreciation and respect for diversity, difference, tolerance and the humanisation of individuals. It's disappointing that we're going down this path and I hope that, sooner rather than later, we change course. Thank you so much for watching🧐, and I'll see you in the next one!
TIMESTAMPS
0:00 Minorities aren't being taken seriously anymore
1:21 Cosplaying minorities
7:32 Why are minorities doing the discriminating now?
10:51 The false perception of businesses as "safe spaces"
12:07 Thank you, Rocket Money!
14:30 The business of lesbian bars
21:28 The hypocrisy of segregation in recent bar culture
29:01 Profiling is okay...if you're gay
33:33 Straight men = bad?
39:48 The problem and contradictions of "inclusivity"
41:30 Men are innately "aggressive" and "arrogant"
46:23 We need to talk to each other and do better
49:09 The glamorisation of being a minority
FAQ
Q: Why do you pronounce "women" the same as "woman"?
A: I am South African with a particular Queen's English/south of England tinge to my accent. Please be understanding, respectful and don't send me emails or leave comments about this. Thank you :)
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Развлечения
Check out Rocket Money for free: RocketMoney.com/kidology
VIDEO DISCLAIMER
Recently, there's been a lot of conversation and debate around "safe spaces" and who is allowed in them on the basis of...profiling people. I do want to emphasise (as I say in the video) that I am _not_ saying that people who cosplay their minority status aren't minorities. I think their is a recent glamorisation of being part of particular minority identities/demographics that really isn't true to the lived experiences of most minorities inhabiting those identities/demographics. It's "trendy" to be oppressed for some of these minorities but, for most, it either isn't trendy or is something they are indifferent to in their day-to-day lives. This has bizarre ramifications when it comes to how minorities are perceived, treated, lumped together and "tokenised" not just by everybody else but especially by cosplaying minorities who increasingly prove themselves incapable of appreciating the very things they are allegedly fighting for: an appreciation and respect for diversity, difference, tolerance and the humanisation of individuals. It's disappointing that we're going down this path and I hope that, sooner rather than later, we change course. Thank you so much for watching🧐, and do let me know what you think down below.
People who do "cosplay their minority/minorities" or who tend to fit a stereotypical aesthetic will likely be offended by your views regardless because it's taken as an attack on their whole identity, personhood, and even morality. By belonging to a minority, they feel inherently morally superior or untouchable. And it probably feels invalidating to them. They may or may not react to your video aggressively or passive aggressively.
Social media has somehow made us feel obligated to inhabit a solid sense of identity---arguably a brand or a theme that reflects our personalities---which isn't something people ever felt obligated to do. Plus, there's a heavy burden online to be morally scrupulous at all times but also stand out from the crowd. Influencers are affected by this more than anybody except maybe celebrities because their personhood becomes a brand, and in marketing a brand has to be different from the rest in order to sell.
Add to all these new problems humanity's immortally dismal amount of emotional regulation, interpersonal skills, and assertiveness both online and off, and it's all a recipe for disaster. So when people are quick to take all the little things personally, they in turn don't want to do those things to others, and so even though those things are totally benign in typical contexts, they're caught in this cycle and reinforced as immoral.
From the cubby hole situation, I see it as the straight woman wanting to feel victimized. It's funny to watch her spin her little tale of oppression.
In a world where clout and drama rule the online world, it's ironic to see someone go into a queer space and claim to be harassed.. they don't have to experience that often let alone at all. They could literally go anywhere else.
If I go to a bar, and it has a confederate flag, I'm not staying in the bar and causing a hoopla or drama, I'm leaving. I have millions of other bars that aren't that bar. I don't have to escalate, and act emotional in a space I'm not wanted. I don't have to go on social media and post about it.
The real issue is trying to feel justified. The woman is seeking validation online, knowing she's in the wrong.
Trying to put pressure on a group of people and paint a bad guy. "Apologise to me and my friend! We felt slighted! We deserve to be catered to!". I see it as a reality check. They aren't welcomed there so they should leave, especially after causing a commotion it a small bar like the cubbyhole.
In the end this straight woman and her buddy, could go anywhere else. Why even exaggerate, why post it on social media.
Lesbian bars are known to bar straight men from their spaces.
Same with gay bars and barring women.
Queer bars are open to the community. With only 27 bars open to being lesbian exclusive in America.. its such a victim, attention grabbing, emotional ploy to post a video saying "my straight friend and I a straight were harassed out of a lesbian bar". Talk about playing victim woof.
The full story is out there to, you can check the lesbian woman's side out.
The cubbyhole is a small venue to be begin with, like extremely small. So hearing the lesbian talk about it.. well it makes sense. The dude kept trying to talk to her, got his feelings hurt, and got his group to start dogging the lesbian woman.
Only to prove why straight men aren't allowed.
@KidologyCO I agree with most of the points made in your video and I deeply admire your content, but I wanted to tell you that maybe it needed a bit more warnings about the discussion at hand? The Queer Kiwi is a very sweet person and I think you two could be perfectly able to talk things through if you sit and talk, but now I'm worried that this video could, unintentionally, send hate towards another queer creator and that's never good :( I've already seen a couple of very harsh and cruel comments about her, instead of people focussing on the content which is, I asume, your focus.
I know it's not your fault and I know you don't have control over what your subscribers do, but you know, a couple of warnings wouldn't hurt ><
I hope you don't take this wrong. I just don't want neither of you to have to deal with other people's bs. Lots of love
I was thinking even you as a lesbian you are now a conflict of interest when you talk about straight men
After more than a few minutes, my comments get something akin to shadowbanned, where they can be see only when the comments are sorted by "Newest First". No words in it were bannable. There doesn't seem much point in commenting anymore.
Is it you that's doing it?
vanilla is such a crazy ass spice, i don't understand how it became synonymous with the words "boring, bland, basic" it's a mothafuckin War Chief in the dessert spice world, rivalled only by sugar itself
That's a great point actually! Nothing screams more dessert than vanilla
@@suviainen91 I think people are too used to artificial vanilla and beaver anus juice, they forget how hard real Madagascar vanilla can fuck
This this this!!
vanilla ice cream. they don't mean real vanilla, they mean artificial vanilla. people grew up with vanilla in everywhere so it became a "standard taste". I agree, vanilla is great! it's also the taste I grew up and still taste everywhere.
Vanilla, Sugar, Salt = The Holy Trinity of Spices. Honestly there are so many “non-vanilla” people, they’ve in a way become the new vanilla. Kinda like chocolate, which isn’t vanilla but still just as “basic”.
The problem with profiling is 100% correct, I’m a lesbian woman and one of my friends is a cis passing trans man, and when I would go into queer spaces with him there was IMMEDIATE hostility and people would always treat him like shit, and it was so unnerving the complete 180 people in those spaces would make when they would find out he’s trans. Literally night and day, they would go from treating him like he’s not human to immediate warmth and sympathy. Caused us to stop going into queer spaces despite both of us being queer as hell.
I'm trans masc and can pass and it doesn't take much to understand no matter how queer I am, to a woman walking home at night, i look like a regular man and how many strange men would you personally feel safe with right of the bat? Now apply that everywhere in life
That is so sad to hear.
That’s messed up and interesting how the peoples trama can easily effect people.
Very hostile environments for bi people too. Stopped going and essentially decided to just “be straight” because of how I was treated.
@@drezand
And conservatives being worse makes the former ok? Way to whataboutism your way out of addressing the point.
I went to gay bars as the “straight guy friend” before I came out & honestly part of why I felt comfortable coming out later was because of how nicely everyone there treated me. If I got treated like an intruder then I’d probably still be in the closet :/
Did You feel you were straight all those years?
Glad you were welcomed in hun ❤ tbf, gay bars are usually pretty welcoming to all,
Just so long as nobody is there to stir up some homophoboc 💩
I'm glad I always had my 🔪 on me, but even more glad I never needed to use it on a dude (or anyone).
@@Muhluritbf, i can speak for OP, but they didnt say they were gay. So might be bi/pan. As someone who is bi/pan, i can Tell you, it's amazing what your brain can do to Turn Attraction into sth you will recognize as sth completely different. I spent 26 years thinking i was straight until finally the Penny dropped and i realized that all those Girls with their gorgeous Hair, and perfect skin and "oh my god shes Just sooooo nice"... Yh, that wasnt me Just wanting to be besties. That was a big old crush that i simply rationalized into sth friendship 😅
@@annabeinglazy5580 I'm recently bi curious that's why I'm asking lol. Thanks for sharing your experience
@@Muhluri Now I really feel like sharing my experience as well, I recently came out as bi when I thought I was straight my whole life. What happened was: I didn't recognize my liking to women as something romantic, I was apart from reality in how we define a friendship vs romantic relationship. I never had a guy friend but surprisingly all my contact with romance and first times were with women that I called "friends". The attraction that I felt was always called "a girls girl" behavior and seen as being a friend rather than "hell no, I'm complimenting you, doing this and that because I think you're attractive and surprisingly I got no problem in imagining us having something together". I only realized this when my friend came out to me and described her reasons which turned out to be what I always thought was "friendship" 😅
This reminds me of when my boomer dad's old ass uncle from the Irish midlands came back from San Francisco in the 70s complaining that he "didn't see a single gay" while he was there 😭 bro how would you tell???? What were you expecting them to look like???????
I'm Irish too and my grandad sounds really similar to your dad's uncle 😭😭
@@dinosaurs_rule Proper Offaly accent on him too lmao... But haha yeah, this girl is about as progressive as a senile culshie
I’d wager they probably look really really gay 🤔
@@Macheakowhat do you mean by that, though. I'm seriously asking here - what does a gay person look like, in your estimation?
@@em97c haha I gotchu blud. Uhhhhh 🤔 I guess it’s the way gay dudes cock they elbows which is like, giveaway #1 😂
But other stuff might be showing ANY belly 😂
Unless someone is making people feel unsafe, approaching an individual based on their appearance and telling them they dont belong in the “safe space” (especially an lgbt safe space) completely negates the point of that space
Ehhh, in high school a Black student union and a gay straight alliance club were made in the same week. So the following week a “Kool Kids Klub” (kkk) was created. Those kool kids would sit in on their meetings wearing nooses and swatzikas and the school’s excuse for not stepping in was “freedom of speech”. Safe to say those black and gay kids did not like going to school😂
I think the biggest issue is that no one did that. No one told him he didn't belong.
I don’t think anyone said that to the person
I’m sure a lot of people would say that just the existence of a cishet-appearing man in a space like that would make them feel unsafe regardless of his behavior. Feeling safe frequently has more to do with our own biases and experiences than it does with the objective world around us.
Why do you think you are free to simply opt out of how you appear to other people? Like their opinion of you is your property?
"Wakanda forever, I'll just pee on the ground, like your ancestors had to"
This f*cking sent me 🤣🤣
✊!!!
I saw this comment and was waiting to hear her say it because it sounded so funny. 😂
Kidology is superb at comedy, both material and delivery! 😎
I was not prepared. 😂
i laughed so hard that my cat bit me
NYC lesbian here… Can confirm that Cubbyhole almost never has a line unless they’re having a popular weekend event/or it’s a holiday.
no deadass that was literally the funniest part
So no line for the toilets then ? That's interesting, when I was studying architecture it was understood that females needed more physical space for toilets as women take longer than men so roughly 1.5 to 2 times the number of men can be processed through the same sized allocate space . But a building cant have larger or more toilets/bathrooms space for females than males as its would be sex discrimination, which is why you always see a line for the women toilets at clubs and venues and not mens . But some women think because there is always a long like for the ladies and none for gents that constitutes sex discrimination against females for not haven't same opportunity to pee 😢 . Anyway I am sure that was interesting. But I just had the thought that female only bars and clubs must have really long lines for the loos as they were built for mixed sex use . Sorry
@@3211SDbro has a degree in yappinomics
on friday/saturday night theres usually a bit of a line at peak hours ime
@@3211SD I would assume that they would just have gender neutral bathrooms, like you know, my closest public library.
As a trans man if I was asked that question at a feminist/lesbian bar my "aggression" would've been much more apparent. Just for that I don't like when that kiwi person threw the whole group of "trans men" into a soft category. Not all trans men are soft. We're people with histories, lives and different view points.
It's so funny to me when people like her portray trans men as some ultra-left fairies haha. Like, girl, you know that there are trans men who are right-wing and completely anti-queer, right?
The kiwi person def said that because she views trans men not as men, but as a different kind of woman.
YES !! like that men = aggressive and women = gentle and soft is so anchored in people's minds, ive had fellow lgb ppl practically telling me that i (trans man) am fine being in queer spaces because its ok ive been 'socialised' as a woman (again, infantilisation, essentialism), and excluding trans women because they were 'socialised' as men and thus to be violent and predatory. I'm not taken seriously because i've 'been a woman' and friends who are trans women are exluded. wtf
Indeed! Trans men are absolutely capable of being lecherous/sexually agressive or embodying the very worst stereotypes about men. I have no idea how prevalent that kind of personality would be , but it’s probably impossible to find out or verify anyway, which is again another reason why this sort of generalisation is pointless.
As a hyper masculine woman
I agree, I'm a softie.
It sucks to be stigmatized.
I find myself adapting to male social codes due to my presentation. I get hurt physically or emotionally? As a need it was bottle till I burst. Be it physical on other people, or emotional where I broke down. As an adult I regulate better learning I'm human. I hurt and I can chose who hurts me.
My own brother was called gay and soft for being sensitive, wears nail polish with skinny jeans, and he's 6"3 200 pounds.
Society is weird. He's straight as hell, with a kid, and only girlfriends. At this point we say it to be silly.
Kidology starting her lesbian era is gonna break my brain
wth is that supposed to mean 😭
@@thespicyfaery8736 it's just a joke bc she came out as lesbian recently lol
I've noticed the earings 😊
😭🤣
@@babyxblue I knowwww this comment was just rlly funny to me idk
I feel like rainbow hair girl’s point that women want safe spaces with just women is fair, but I also think Kidology’s point that bars shouldn’t be the place for such a space is also fair. I think it’d be cool if bars for lesbians only could exist, but like Kidology says, nothing can exist unless it makes someone a profit. It’s already good enough imo that there are some lesbian bars, and that they’re relatively safe for lesbians. I don’t think a cis het man who isn’t going to hit on the girls should get so much hate- if he did harass the women, he could be kicked out for sure, but not if he’s just there to see a friend or support the business by buying drinks
Could be the reason why there's only 27 lesbian bars in America.
There's no real profit to it.
Apparently the lesbian woman's side of the story was: lesbian wanted to go to the bathroom. Straight man was in the way (cubby hole is extremely small)
She asks the man "are you here with some one?", Straight woman answers "yeah with us" referring to herself and her lesbian friend. The lesbian woman accepted the answer and kept waiting for the bathroom. A few more moment pass, the man turns around and says " and if I wasn't with them, would that be a problem?".
Where I can see the situation to be bad without the added context, with this information, yeah the Straight dude was outta line.
@@phataldestroyerup to 30. 6 have opened in the past two years.
@@phataldestroyeryeah I could’ve seen the straight dudes side if he didn’t try and escalate the situation. Dude WAS trying to start a problem if he did say that.
@@phataldestroyer well tbf it was none of her business whether he was with someone or not, cause she doesn’t work for the establishment. I think I’d have let it slide if I were him, but can’t blame him either for being asked a question like that by a stranger of zero authority over him 😅
💯! I agree with you and the Queer Kiwi that it's completely fair for women, queer and trans people, men, etc., to have safe spaces. I just don't agree that businesses can be morphed into safe spaces or that a space which involves people becoming intoxicated can remain realistically and knowingly "safe". The only business model that I can conceivably see as being a "safe space" would be something like AA meetings (ie., a "mutual aid fellowship" model) where the entire venture is conceived around fostering a safe space for recovering addicts. I just can't see bars and clubs as being those spaces. But definitely food for thought so thank you!
I'm so over people putting extra effort into not having fun during fun time.
THIS!!!!
💯
bein gay is a choice + *Don't translate..
भवतः हृदयस्य धड़कनं कतिपयेषु घण्टेषु स्थगयिष्यति, अस्य शापस्य मुक्तिं प्राप्तुं एकमात्रं मार्गं मम चैनलस्य सदस्यतां कुर्वन्तु*
I feel the same about people at work going out of their way, being extra and beyond, to NOT work - but literally doing more than just doing the work they were avoiding in the first place AND making it harder/worse for everyone, including themselves. #letsjustnot
@@cdpbryant lol ngl that's me.
my straight dad was going to gay bars decades ago because the music was better and the people were friendlier, this is nothing new and the way the queer kiwi describes it has never been the reality.
Also they are supporting the business by buying drinks, as long as they are respectful I don't see the problem.
Aaand the simple fact that straight and gay can, and should be friends 🤣
Yeah like segregating yourselves is dumb. We're all human beings and it doesn't matter our age, sex, sexual orientation, disability or race - if we share morals and are decent people, let's just have fun together. Like I hate how people are all "I only have gay friends" or whatever.. just go out and make friends because you get along with them, not because you're all gay or whatever characteristic.
Easy for you to say “we should swgregate and all be friends 😊 ”. The entire reason gay and lesbian bars exist is so we can meet others in our community and be able to meet other LGBT partners without fear of violence. What happens when straight people come to gay bars? They like it. Then they tell there other straight friend, then that person tells there other straight friend, etc and then this gay safe space where we don’t have to worry the threat of PHYSICAL VIOLENCE gets full of straight people. Being an ally is awesome but these places don’t exist cuz LGBT people wanna segregate and demonize cis men. As if we even have that level of political power. They exist so we can find community without fearing for our safety. In an ideal world we wouldn’t need LGBT specific bars and places but we aren’t living in that world
One thing that stuck to me in the initial story was how was it ascertained the dude was straight? Was he not flamboyany enough lmao. That bit made no fucking sense since no one came out that the guy tried hit on the lesbian women at the club or whatever. Concidering that it was absolutely a slight against him, since it seems it was just assumed he was straight without any evidenece to indicate that.
I was looking for this comment. Thank you! Sexuality has no look to it
At a glance, it was assumed he was a) a man, b) cis, c) het, and d) there to hit on and harass lesbian women.
People love to be sxist and assume based on looks and its tiring
Like its sxist to assume cuz u assume by a caricature something
Like i noticed that grandmas can assume my gender as a woman but people from the lgbt ask if im trans cuz
God forbid woman with short hair and pants and no makeup
I got the most discrimination and sxist comments and assumtions from the lgbt
Christian grandmas are less sxist and can see me as me and dont misgender me or ask for my sxuality or gender
You Lost me at Christian😅@@levtieart3409
He was blocking the women's bathroom and asking them out 🙃
and what are straights with gay friends supposed to do exactly? when i had a night out with a gay friend he wanted to go to a gay bar, so am i supposed to say well hey its been fun catching up but if you want to go you have to go alone cause im taking up a sacred space?
yes thats what they expect.
its modern day segregation.
if your straight, treat queer spaces like invite only. it’s not that complicated
@@babs_babs That's dumb. Unless the bar requires membership then it's open to everyone. Unless the queer people of the bar want to say it with their chest and post signs telling straight people to stay out.
@user-dg6qn4si1h but why wouldn't you want more polite patrons to buy alcohol to support the spaces?
@@christianandjesse7370 it’s not about polite patrons, patrons can be polite to the bar backs and staff but they can still hold misogynistic and homophobic views. Queer spaces are “supposed” to be places where you don’t have to worry about being called a slur or being judged.
If you’re in a queer safe space, it doesn’t matter if you’re straight, questioning, or anything, just song as you’re RESPECTFUL towards the queer community!!
Right? Seems simple, no? I don't have a problem with safe spaces, but I think it would make a lot more sense if they all operated like that. I mean it just makes sense. If someone from whatever majority group wants to hang with people from a minority group then that should be celebrated; they should be welcomed. What is the point of life if not to be warm to those that are warm to us? It is simpler rather than trying to come up with arbitrary rules to exclude others, imo and experience.
i absolutely disagree. you shouldnt speak for all queer folk.
@@GraysonFuerstenberg No one said this but you. You fightin ghost, respectfully.
bein gay is a choice + *Don't translate..
भवतः हृदयस्य धड़कनं कतिपयेषु घण्टेषु स्थगयिष्यति, अस्य शापस्य मुक्तिं प्राप्तुं एकमात्रं मार्गं मम चैनलस्य सदस्यतां कुर्वन्तु*
@@GraysonFuerstenberg if you support Queer kiwi’s opinion as a member of the lgbtq+ community your objectively hypocritical, queer spaces are for everyone so long as we all treat each other kindly
Queer Kiwi's logic isn't just harmful to the cis people, but also the queer people who are friends with the cis people. If I invited my non-queer friends into a queer space, and they were confronted by others saying they're not welcome, they are also essentially saying that I (a gay man) am also not welcome. If my friends aren't welcome or safe in a particular setting, by proxy I too am also not welcome or safe.
In Europe in gay bars/clubs women are not welcomed/allowed and vice versa in lesbian bars/clubs men are not welcomed/allowed as it should be.
There are also queer bars for both queer men and women though. Straight men are only allowed there when they are accompanied with queer friends and don't flirt with women.
@@Rainbow_Warrior_Princessno, they fucking arent
bein gay is a choice + *Don't translate..
भवतः हृदयस्य धड़कनं कतिपयेषु घण्टेषु स्थगयिष्यति, अस्य शापस्य मुक्तिं प्राप्तुं एकमात्रं मार्गं मम चैनलस्य सदस्यतां कुर्वन्तु*
Tbh it really does not surprise me. A lot of her videos are really poorly researched....even though I’m literally a leftist, I can find fallacies in the argument she uses all the time. For example I remember her shitting on the fruit boysenberry one time, and saying that it’s name was rooted in patriarchy. When in reality, boysenberry fruit is just called that, because the guy who found it had boysenberry as a last name....
As long as the dude was respectful and not trying to convert the lesbians in there, I don't see the damn problem.
Lots of guys sleep with lesbians because they lack the downsides of straight women and are often attracted to straight men
bein gay is a choice + *Don't translate..
भवतः हृदयस्य धड़कनं कतिपयेषु घण्टेषु स्थगयिष्यति, अस्य शापस्य मुक्तिं प्राप्तुं एकमात्रं मार्गं मम चैनलस्य सदस्यतां कुर्वन्तु*
@@ville__bot
The problem is that she is on Tumblr a lot, spends a tons of time reading and sharing posts telling her she should be outraged by this situation and she gets lots of validation from her mutual followers for buying in.
@@ville__
What do you honestly think you're accomplishing here?
I've been going to LGTBQ+ bars since I was 19 (so a loooong time since I'm 41); I have seen predatory straight guys go into queer women bars because they have a kink/fetish & they're creepy. I've seen straight people be hostile in LGBTQ+ bars. But, for the most part when straight people go to LGTBQ+ bars they are chill & nice. I understand the angry lesbian's frustration. Straight people get to be 90% of the population & we have to be 10% of the population so there's a loneliness to that. So, LGBTQ+ neighborhoods/bars is where we don't have to feel so alone. But, I would've been nice to straight dude in the gay bar. It's cool. Straight folks; if you're going to go to an LGBTQ+ bar just be chill & kind is all. Yes, the lesbian should've been nicer to the straight guy for sure; but I empathize with her loneliness & frustration.
This exactly. This comment section is full of people who haven't been in gay spaces and seen how much men use them to hit on women. We can be chill and have fun together, sure, but as a lesbian, I really understand her suspicion. Idk.
Also, this comment section is full of people who are a smidgen oblivious to the experience of being LGBTQ+ & the trauma & loneliness that can come from that. So, yes, I understand her reaction as well but also can understand why straight people wouldn't understand her frustration at all. The experience is different for LGBTQ+ and straight people as far as life goes. But, I got love for everybody. I got love for straight people. We can build bridges it just requires LGBTQ+ people to be very patient with straight people. I don't mind being a bridge builder. It's just hard sometimes.
yeah i totally see how and why lgbt people want "safe spaces" to escape from harassment, so while kiwi was going at it in an annoying way, i also can see her point
Exactly this ❤ very similar story. I’ve been going to the gay bars since I turned 18. Literally went the week I turned 18 and I loved it. I don’t care anyone’s sexualities in a bar. And I’ve had a lot of fun with straight men at the gay bar. I’ve taken my brother, mother, stepdad on my 30th birthday. All straight. No one gave them any issues and my brother was dancing with a drag queen by the end of the night.
Awesome! :)
I can't say I'd want, as a queer man, to go to a bar where your main personality trait has to be your sexuality. The Queer Kiwi also seems to have missed the point, the person in the video said she and her gay friend invited a straight friend. It wasn't just a straight woman at a lesbian bar inviting her straight friend to gawk at the lesbians or something. Nightlife is dying all over the world, especially in the United States, the last thing it needs is MORE segregation of any kind. Diversity is part of the party.
Nightlife is dying? Oh no my alcohol and drugs and casual sex! This is a tragedy for society!
@@kubli365 I think they meant more like "third spaces" are dying, at least the physical kind as opposed to online.
@@kubli365 Those things exist without nightclubs, you know? I Mean, spaces for adults to hang out and dance are disappearing, and that sucks. It used to be a lot of fun to have a silly night out, maybe wear some interesting clothes, and dance. I'm not a big drinker. And yes, definitely "third spaces" are disappearing. Perhaps you're too young to have experienced what it was like, but people used to socialize in a completely different way IRL, and having a place to dance was a facet of that. You seem like you're a blast at parties though.
It's normal for people to go to bars in the hopes of meeting someone to possibly date so, gay and lesbian bars make sense. Additionally, gay and lesbian bars often have drag shows, this isn't usually found in straight bars. Doing drag performances in a "desegregated" bar could lead to homophobes being hostile towards the performers.
@@lostpelican1883nightlife and thirdspaces are not the same
i think that the woman who confronted the man in the bar had misplaced hostility, i can understand being wary of straight men in gay spaces, but he hadn’t done anything wrong and I think that this kind of behaviour unprovoked just creates more division. i think that if straight people have lgbt friends and want to participate in lgbt culture and spaces respectfully and politely and with a lense of appreciation then that’s okay.
Also in regards to the profiling in the gay community there’s definitely a pressure to ‘look gay’ and as a bi girl i’ve especially felt this pressure and there’s really something against ‘looking straight’ and this is very much reinforced by social media and ‘aesthetics,’ so i think that this really needs to be addressed like in the lgbt space because assumptions based off of looks really isn’t getting us as a community anywhere
Yes, and considering how welcome straight woman - generally - are in gay bars, it's hypocritical.
@@jamesdoyle2769 how is that hypocritical? Didn’t they also say gay men were welcome in the lesbian bar as well?
@@trashpageant7861 Because if you're a bi girl who looks straight, then there's a weird hostility towards you. I've heard some bi women be called traitors or fake gay because of it. But if you're a straight woman, suddenly it's okay to be hanging out in gay bars.
So bisexual = not okay, fake gay, hate you
Straight = omg come hang out with the girlies at the gay bar
@jamesdoyle2769 a lot of people get annoyed with straight or straight passing women in men's gay bars. I've experienced that first hand going to drag shows as a bisexual woman
Straight passing is fine. A lot of gay men are straight passing, after all. What is unacceptable is straight behavior - expecting chivalrous treatment, for instance expecting men to but her drinks or to restrict their language or conversation to suit her dainty sensibilities.
There was a case where a gay bar was shut down after a woman went through the backroom to go to the restroom. She was disgusted or offended or whatever by the sexual activity there. And she ended up getting the bar closed. She quite simply went in and colonized a gay space. She went in and expected gay men to adhere to a standard of behavior she set.
Another form of this colonization is when straight start showing up, following straight women. Then the place degenerates into a standard issue straight meat rack. I have nothing against straight meat racks, but there are already plenty of them and they don't need to colonize gay spaces.
There is still the issue though of the way the presence of a woman desexualizes a space.@@msjkramey
also, the argument they made about it being a women’s only space and that being sacred… isn’t that the same argument people use against all gender restrooms? just really odd to use the exact same rhetoric one argue’s against once it’s suddenly convenient
The only people who get to decide who gets to be in a lesbian bar are the owners of the bar, and even then, they're not legally allowed to discriminate against straight men.
@@TheOnyomiMasteryep, i agree
You do not have a right to magically be accepted into any private group or place.
@@WhosBean right, but bars are considered public spaces. in the video, she does bring up the idea of private clubs or memberships… parties… these are private
@@francesalmutawa6600 No, bars are private property. A beach or a park is a public space.
It's weird how going beyond a certain point on the left side of the political spectrum can often lead to this false accepting situation. These people may pose as accepting and inclusive but they will only accept people with the same views and values.
Are you familiar with Horseshoe theory?
@@spencerricketts8025 I wasn't but now that I've looked it up it makes a lot of sense.
“I learned that very often the most intolerant and narrow-minded people are the ones who congratulate themselves on their tolerance and open-mindedness.”
~ Christopher Hitchens
Let’s please stop the fetishization of listening to “both sides.” Please look into the paradox of tolerance fallacy. This is how bigotry becomes normalized because people like you over-value listening to “both sides” and claim moral superiority for something that doesn’t take any heart nor courage. 💖
@@angelwings967 There are no "sides" at all, only millions of people who want to be liked by some illusory group of their choosing. In a world where everyone seems to seek truth externally, the only place it will be found is internally.
I think there is a level of miscommunication in the language.
At least for me, when I talk about “safe spaces” I’m not talking about a space where nothing bad can possibly happen, I’m talking about a place where I can be myself without having to constantly be aware of my queerness, and assessing if I will be accepted.
In a queer bar I am “safe” to hit on other men. It doesn’t mean I’m safe from rejection or if a bar fight is gonna break out. It’s still a bar. But it is safer than if I were to try and hit on a man in a “straight” bar.
Women’s spaces are “safe spaces” not in the sense that women can’t be mean or cruel, but that in that space they should (though I understand it’s a complex issue) find support, be believed, boosted up, and not have to deal with the patriarchal nonsense all of us have to put up with in society.
So maybe “safe” is the wrong word to use in describing these spaces. But u do think they have some value.
The impulse to create safe spaces for minorities is a good one, however the tendency to paint people of particular identity groups as automatically already "problematic" (whatever that means) is ideologically flaccid. It flattens people down to their identities, assumes things about them based on those simplified, distilled identities, and forecloses the possibility of diversity within identity groups. Not every person of color, woman, queer person, disabled person, poor person, etc., is always right/moral/unflinchingly perfect. If we continue to use the same logic of exclusion used by people with institutional/social/etc. power, we will never be able to create a better, more equitable, more harmonious world.
It's also interesting to me that the language is "feeling" unsafe instead of actually "being" unsafe. We have to differentiate between danger and discomfort.
"idealogically flaccid" is the BEST descriptor I've ever read, though especially so relative to this.
As someone who has externally morphed through maaany different presentations, primarily style wise, but also gender transit ~ I've been included & excluded, sometimes both, by differing groups/communities, dependant on what they judge about my appearance at the time. I've been treated unkindly by some who claim to be the most inclusive & I've been warmly welcomed by the most unlikely of folk, some who I (in the past) would have assumed would be unkind or not "my people". I tend to be quiet & anxious with new people, but I'm also observing & feeling for safety & the inclusiveness/exclusiveness a person displays initially can be a good filter.
Some of the most wonderful people I've met are the unexpected surprises ~ the ones the world deems the value of by judging their appearance, and could never guess at the golden being beyond.
The "feeling" vs "being" unsafe is such a good analogy. I've always thought about it but couldn't seem to put it into words, English even. So thank you!
Your point on differentiating between feeling safe and being safe is so apt in this context
"the tendency to paint people of particular identity groups as automatically already "problematic"... " The tendency to stereotype is inherently objectifying. Specifically, it is "fungibility." "Fungibility - treating the person as interchangeable with (other) objects" per Barbara Nussbaum.
Also, your distinction between feeling and being unsafe is apposite, especially in a society where white women have historically and repeatedly weaponized their claims of feeling unsafe as a tool for dominance.
Safe spaces eventually just lead to segregation. Which is extremely hypocritical
I’m trans man who passes stealthily. No one wants to be treated or seen differently from their cis counterparts. most transgender individuals just want to exist as their presenting gender, not wanting to be categorised differently but this doesn’t mean people shouldn’t take their circumstances into consideration, it’s about accommodating for everyone in their best wishes, which is basic decency and respect
bein gay is a choice + *Don't translate..
भवतः हृदयस्य धड़कनं कतिपयेषु घण्टेषु स्थगयिष्यति, अस्य शापस्य मुक्तिं प्राप्तुं एकमात्रं मार्गं मम चैनलस्य सदस्यतां कुर्वन्तु*
This comment deserves to have someone other than an edgy homophobic spammer replying to it. I'm not out yet or anywhere near passing but I 100% agree with your point
@@ville__ The FitnessGram Pacer Test is a multistage aerobic capacity test that progressively gets more difficult as it continues. The 20 meter pacer test will begin in 30 seconds. Line up at the start. The running speed starts slowly but gets faster each minute after you hear this signal bodeboop. A sing lap should be completed every time you hear this sound. ding Remember to run in a straight line and run as long as possible. The second time you fail to complete a lap before the sound, your test is over. The test will begin on the word start. On your mark. Get ready!… Start. dingThe FitnessGram Pacer Test is a multistage aerobic capacity test that progressively gets more difficult as it continues. The 20 meter pacer test will begin in 30 seconds. Line up at the start. The running speed starts slowly but gets faster each minute after you hear this signal bodeboop. A sing lap should be completed every time you hear this sound. ding Remember to run in a straight line and run as long as possible. The second time you fail to complete a lap before the sound, your test is over. The test will begin on the word start. On your mark. Get ready!… Start. ding
Exactly, just as OP said we all come from different backgrounds and our needs to be taken into consideration.
Respectfully, I find the assertion that the fact lesbians might reject the presence of a cis straight bloke in a lesbian bar, may contribute to why support for lgbt people is “waning” as a bit off colour. I also wonder whether, if a cis straight guy turned up to your lesbian brunch, you’d feel any urge to ask what his interest was and why he was there, even knowing you couldn’t actually chuck him out. I think if a guy does walk into an event of space marked as lesbian, he should be prepared to be asked those kind of questions and I say that because it’s doubtful a man in that situation is going to feel threatened by being asked. I agree that a bar of any kind doesn’t constitute a safe space and those establishments perhaps shouldn’t advertise themselves as such. I think in the absence of lesbian clubs, it’d be great to see more lesbian events/nights in regular clubs. And yes men can come, but should they?
blaming a minority group for their own oppression is definitely a bad take
@@ginger_L3 Dude, read the last two sentences of this comment again. No one is victim blaming. No one is saying that men cannot be included in those events. But considering there are literally under 30 lesbian clubs in America, and in general men invite themselves into lesbian spaces constantly, of course lesbians have a right to be upset that their spaces are being taken away, and of course they would want their own private spaces. That isn't being done to gay male spaces or general lgbt spaces. You can believe in inclusivity while also acknowledging that there is a need for gay women to have a space away from gay guys who don't relate to them, and straight guys who creep on them. What the fuck is wrong with YOU that you feel it is appropriate to tell lesbians what they should and should not feel?
i dont agree with queer kiwis point, but neither with yours completely. your point about ruining the image of queerness leans into like the typical "you can be gay just not to my face" argument. kiwi was wrong imo, yes. but she does a good job overall talking about womens and queer rights. its not about cosplaying queerness and waving the lgbt flag just because. and i will say i didnt see your hole video so i can be wrong, but you are trying to end discrimination between everybody yet hold this person accountable for the whole community image. one wrong queer person is just that, a person thats in the wrong. there is no reputation they need to uphold for everybody. its just people. and yes they can be cringe, and divisive, but call them out just for that. dont put their level of opression or queerness in question
That plushie falls so many times. It has to be poltergeist. I want a safe space of any paranormal activity.
your comment took me out 😂😂😂😂💀
😂😂😂😂😂 too good
Now that's a safe space I can get behind.
Lol the SKZOO plushies are a little top heavy
It's crazy how that guy was treated like a predator just for being a man. He was talked about as if he were a wild animal.
Well, women are scared of straight men, if you haven’t noticed yet. No surprise they don’t want to see straight men in women’s spaces
Honestly it's abhorrent behaviour, shame on the people justifying discriminating and stereotyping.
Literally. The people defending this mentality will say things like “well he could’ve been!”, but so could literally any of the women in there. Being a predator knows no gender, and as a survivor of abuse myself I see no benefit in stereotyping what an abuser “looks like”.
But that is certainly the dominant narrative. It happens if you take you little daughter to a park, it happens in school settings with male teachers, and there are many more examples.
That's so ridiculous. I experienced it first hand. I'm trans, and as soon as I started passing as male, people just decided that it's okay to treat me like shit. Every stranger I had to interact with suddenly went from being generally nice to just avoiding even being around me for some reason. And I'm not even particularly hypermasculine (I get called homophobic slurs regularly lol).
This is what happens when you get addicted to exclusivity. These "spaces" have moved beyond their original purpose and are now just social clubs for the 'cool kids'.
They are segregated spaces where the owners decide what identities are acceptable and which are “problematic”
This is the tragedy of social circles, because everyone wants to be in the cool kids' clubs but not everyone is a cool kid. This causes to every shade, form and style of cliques to be formed, each one of them being meant for one very specific concept of "cool kid", which is always at odds against 10 other concepts that have more in common than difference.
Gender is the new emo.
A social club for the 'cool kids' IS THE ORIGINAL AND ONLY PURPOSE FOR SO CALLED SAFE SPACES. To me safe space = WHITES ONLY
@@tula1433I'm happy to see I'm not 🚫 the only one who gets it
I think it’s disingenuous to boil a gay/lesbian bar down to any other bar in terms of safe spaces without taking into account the history of gay/queer bars as being one of the only places people could meet and organize.
Even if that’s no longer true - it’s likely how a lot of people still think and holds that special symbolism.
Cosplaying minority as a moniker is a choice. I really like watching your videos, I think this is the first one where I kind of have a lot of concerns about your perspective but I have to think about it more.
I had similar sentiments
I still think this video has valuable discourse but the way terms like "safe space" and "cosplaying minority" were defined felt off.
@@orcfaeries9227 yes, I agree. There was topics and discussion points to think about, but I also felt the discussion around bars was her opinion stated as an objective fact and possibly disregarding how other people interact with these spaces. And the cosplaying minority, after further thought, this has also disturbed me further because it is the same concept that lesbian women have used to keep bi people from wlw spaces (e.g., you can be with a man if you want so you can hide your queerness and therefor aren’t queer enough/discriminated against enough to join us).
I like Queer Kiwi, but that particular video did rub me off.
I agree with most of the things you're saying...but I hate how you keep saying 'cosplaying minorities' and that 'minorities aren't all equals'...
Sure, it does sadly happen, but there's no 'cosplaying' here. A minority is a minority, we're not competing on how oppressed we are...we have to help each other out and try to understand each other.
Yes, some group are treated worst or are in more danger statistically, but it doesn't diminish the oppression, discrimination, or crimes against other groups.
Also just mentioning what I mean by 'minority' because I didn't like your approach, is 'groups of people that are OPPRESSED by a bigger group'. So saying that about a straight man in a queer women space doesn't hold at all that signification in a broader look.
I also strongly dislike how you say 'hypocrisy of LGBTQ+'. It's a very dangerous and slippery slop to approach it that way.
I mostly don't disagree with you, and constructive criticism is always a good thing whoever or whatever it is towards, but, again, let's just not put down and demonize each other...
Also, one of the point is that, while a queer bar isn't exactly a 'safe space', expecting little to no hetero is normal.
Yes, there's no rules for it, yes, profiling is dangerous and detrimental; but the thing is that, even if women sometimes go there to hit on each other, statistically, straight men are WAY MORE likely then queer women to be persistent when said no, to push, fight, and sometimes go way too far and can end up in death.
I don't think that woman was right in approaching a man that was just minding his business, but without being justified, her worry is understandable.
Discomfort and fear of seeing a man, whatever their sexuality, in that kinda women space, is often a 'natural instinct'.
No it doesn't make it okay to profile, nor exclude people. But it is still assumed that most people there will be queer women...and if you go and it's just full of straight men, then where do you now go to have that 'safe space' again?
I do agree that inclusivity is the goal in the World, and assuming anything about strangers is bad and get us nowhere.
Tho you are assuming a lot about Queer Kiwi yourself. While it isn't positive nor productive, I think it's a very human thing to do. Of course, it doesn't make it okay.
One of the problem is that it's easy to fall in an echo chamber, especially in this era of technology.
Also, we don't have to 'accept' that reality of oppression, that's exactly why we fight for equal rights...
Last thing, I don't think any of this was in 'bad faith' like you said. I also don't think it's such a big issue, and why people made such a huge deal...
We have way more important battles.
But your point of view was interesting in its own right.
THANK YOU oh my god
@@carriioneater 💙
I love this comment! I think what you’re doing is great! It’s very important to not take everything someone says at face value even if you like/agree with them for the most part. But it’s equally important to engage with content you don’t agree with as long as the content isn’t promoting hate. That’s how you avoid falling into an echo chamber.
in the case of Kidology and Queer Kiwi, both of them have the interest of the LGBTQ community as a whole at heart even if they approach it differently. I add “as a whole” because there are sadly a lot of LGBTQ creators who are quite frankly exclusionary when it comes to queer people of different races or queer people who don’t present the same way as them. For instance the Blair Whites, Kalvin Garrah’s, Milo Yiannopolous’s and most other (often white) “anti sjw” queer people who tear down people in their own community to get cishet approval.
I am hoping that more queer people (and minorities as a whole) can express differing opinions without it leading to petty infighting or falling into respectability politics. Hopefully kidology and queer kiwi could show that it’s possible
@@alyssapinon9670 Thank you so much for taking the time to answer!
I'm bad in English so I was afraid my comment wasn't worded properly and would pass as an 'hate comment'....but that's exactly what I was trying to say!
Thank you for understanding and being positive ^-^
And yes, whatever communities or side of life we are...falling into an echo chamber is sadly an easy trap to fall in to stay comfortable, but it's actually quite toxic in the long run. Listening to what all kind of people have to say is important ^^
We alone cannot be always right, as much as others can't always be wrong.
Much love to you! 💙🌈
Yeah the "cosplaying" but is really annoying me, I don't think I'm gonna make it through the whole video, because all that says to me is that she thinks queer people aren't actually oppressed by society in any way, currently or historically. What else would "minority cosplayer" mean?
And then the bit about "acceptance is going down for a good reason"? What reason? Queer people taking up space and saying they don't like something that's being done to or about them?
The only way a space can be a "safe space" is if everyone assumes that everyone else is there in good faith until proven otherwise. And that's a problem on the left as a whole: so many of us are carrying so much unresolved trauma, and it's too easy to lose sight of that fact and assume bad faith off the bat. But it's a losing game and it's alienating to everyone. I'd rather fight for the whole world to become safe for queer and trans people than to strictly gatekeep "our" spaces.
I really liked this video up until you argued from 14:05 on that the reason lesbian bars aren't profitable is because women would simply rather form "genuine relationships" than pursue casual sexual encounters when compared to gay or straight men. This isn't necessarily wrong, but as an asexual gay man, it rubs me the wrong way, and it's just extremely reductive. There is way more nuance than just "women want genuine relationships and men want hookups". Hookups, bars, and nightlife are far more safe for men than they are for women, and men of all sexualities are expected to have frequent casual sex whereas women are demonized for it. The idea that if lesbian women were just more into casual sex there would be more lesbian only spaces completely ignores the fact that, regardless of if someone opens up a lesbian only bar, it is still far more dangerous socially, emotionally, and physically for a lesbian woman to pursue that kind of pasttime. This argument also feeds into the steryotype that all gay men are hypersexual and interested in casual sex, which is an expectation that feeds that behavior in the first place, it's cyclical. All of these contexts inform people's attitudes around drinking and casual sex, not just their gender. Not to mention all of the complexities of being a queer woman trying to start her own business. Also, there's simply just the fact of population size. As far as I know, there are pretty much zero bars that successfully cater to a singular gender+sexuality combination, both men and women go to straight and gay bars alike, the bar industry does not run on the profits of men alone. I forced myself to sit through the entire video before commenting this, but that section seriously annoyed me.
Again, I truly love your content. I don't think you're entirely wrong about this, I agree with the rest of the video and even what you were trying to say with this argument, but it is simply not as straightforward as "men like hookups, women don't".
thank you, this bothered me too, i was pretty taken aback
I can’t agree with you more. Thanks for sharing.
But regardless of the reasoning (and yours is very valid), there does appear to be a lesser demand for lesbian-only bars.
Omg thank you for this. That part really annoyed me especially when she was generalizing all lesbians and gay men. “Like lesbians don’t like sex only love, we love picnics and tea parties and can’t possibly see how hookups can be fun” and “gay men only like sex. No time for love, partying too much”. (Btw I am lesbian and do like picnics, brunch, tea parties. But I find hookups to be cool too lol)
im glad im not the only one who felt like this
This reminds me of how some people tried to "claim" the word partner for queer fellows only when the whole point of using that word from the beggining was not having to out yourself if you don't want to, so if straight people aren't allowed to say partner (which to me just sounds much better than boy/girlfriend, those sound like teenager talk to me) that defeats the whole purpose
I’m a straight woman who has been using the term partner for more than 20 years. As a fully grown adult woman I feel absolutely ridiculous calling someone my boyfriend. I don’t date boys.
@@MeowNow494 Same! But I'm a bi/queer woman.
I mean it does sound pretty gay so I don't think it ever fooled anyone lol
Exactly, wouldn't they want it to be used by more couples? Otherwise it's pointless. And I'm the same - I'm bi and have a straight male partner, but we're in our 30s so I'm not calling a whole ass man a boyfriend.
bein gay is a choice + *Don't translate..
भवतः हृदयस्य धड़कनं कतिपयेषु घण्टेषु स्थगयिष्यति, अस्य शापस्य मुक्तिं प्राप्तुं एकमात्रं मार्गं मम चैनलस्य सदस्यतां कुर्वन्तु*
I wouldn't say queer kiwi is "cosplaying a minority" just giving a shit take.
Also saying a queer person isn't a minority is absurd. We haven't even had the right to be married for a decade, and we are *literally* a minority of the population.
Thank you! Queer people can have shitty opinions or be shitty people but they’re not “cosplaying” their minority status. Like no ones gonna ask which kind of queer you are when they decide to take away your right to marry or bully you into suicide. Like god queer people can’t even exist without infighting about “who’s more oppressed”.
She said multiple times that cosplaying a minority doesn’t mean you’re not a minority, it means you’re putting that minority identity on like a costume and making it more of an outward identity than it even really is a lived personal experience. It’s the difference between being a gay person and walking around dressed entirely in rainbow flags, introducing yourself as your sexuality in the same breath as your name, and attributing everything about the way that you’re treated and interacted with by the world purely to your sexuality.
@@trala8911 Isn't that the same argument a lot of conservatives have against queer people who express outwardly with rainbow imagery? Why is this argument better when a leftist makes it vs a conservative? It's a shit argument either way.
Instead of talking about 'cosplaying' in a passive-aggressive way, it would have been better to approach this from a principles approach.
Policing the way people express their identities is similar to saying trans women shouldn't wear makeup or dress in flashy clothes, not understanding the reason as to why they do so (to combat dysphoria).
Safe spaces are needed for minorities, true, but profiling and gatekeeping are practices employed by conservatives and queerphobes. We shouldn't do the same. That would have been a compelling argument, instead of saying it's a kind of 'cosplaying of a minority'.
@@Undivided_X The term could be applied to individuals from any group. I think its an apt term.
@@Undivided_X Ngl, it gave me transtrender vibes without explicitly mentioning it.
I will disagree in one way the amplification of some of the "cos play minorities" is what makes support for LGBT people slightly drop. However, it is the amplification of nobodies that is the issue here. There are and always will be annoying people that exist in any group.
Yep 💯
bein gay is a choice + *Don't translate..
भवतः हृदयस्य धड़कनं कतिपयेषु घण्टेषु स्थगयिष्यति, अस्य शापस्य मुक्तिं प्राप्तुं एकमात्रं मार्गं मम चैनलस्य सदस्यतां कुर्वन्तु*
Idk dude. I live in Portland as a queer woman and see hate towards straight men often from queer people. It’s like a trend to hate cis straights now. We shouldn’t be this exclusive. It’s sad that people have trauma from men, but if a man had trauma and told a gay person to leave it wouldn’t be socially unacceptable. But it’s socially acceptable to yell at white men here in public. It’s gone too far.
I think it was Tig Notaro that joked about how having a mostly lesbian clientele is death for a bar/venue because many lesbians are happy to sit with a single cup of tea for hours. I've witnessed this in person at a small music venue in my neighbourhood which became popular with queer women. These women were always very early at getting the best of the limited seating, and would indeed nurse a cup of tea or some other non alcoholic drink for the entirety of the show. I don't mean to judge them, it's very much their right to do so, and good on them for being sober. That said, the venue is no longer open for shows at night and exists only as a daytime cafe.
lol that's fucking funny and me
Genuine question but do lesbians not buy each other drinks?
@@garak55 In the bar I was talking about, it seemed that if they were buying eachother anything, it was A drink, and then they'd remain a stranger to the bartender.
bein gay is a choice + *Don't translate..
भवतः हृदयस्य धड़कनं कतिपयेषु घण्टेषु स्थगयिष्यति, अस्य शापस्य मुक्तिं प्राप्तुं एकमात्रं मार्गं मम चैनलस्य सदस्यतां कुर्वन्तु*
@@ville__ you are gay
i agree with a lot of your points, but i think saying that all these “cosplaying minorities” don’t actually care about equity, don’t want anything to change, etc etc is a bit in bad faith… they’re trapped in echo chambers and most genuinely believe they are advocating for good, because they genuinely perceive themselves as oppressed. (and in a lot of places they (we) truly still are oppressed) projecting bad intentions onto them isn’t any more productive than what they’re doing.
i agree with you on almost all points, just… be weary of such harsh generalizing. i’m sure there are some people like that, but certainly not the majority. (or maybe i’m just too optimistic, idk)
edit: clarifying point
I agree, it’s entirely possible that some people are like that, however it does seem like others are in the situation that you stated.
I agree, but being in the queer community for the past two decades almost, I've come across a lot more people than I thought I would who just want the current power dynamic shifted with their group on top. I'm not sure if Queerkiwi is one of those people as I don't know them personally but they could be, or could just be misguided.
We should be searching for equality. This is why we NEED queer and straight people to be friends. We need allies.
I don't like the phrasing of "perceive themselves as oppressed" implies LGBT people aren't oppressed... Which is wild implication.
@@LangkeeLongkee gonna be real with you, that was a strategic word choice. i myself am queer and i am definitely not sating that we aren’t oppressed in certain ways, especially outside western culture. however, it seems kidology is under the impression that there are certain groups who “pretend” to be more oppressed than they are in order to get minority status. (which may happen, but certainly not as often as kidology was implying) basically i was trying to meet her within her own argument rather than attacking the whole thing. rhetorical device and all that jazz.
'As a white cis straught man, you can go to any bar....' And so he did.
Cis? Pls explain.
@@sararichardson737cis means "not trans"
ooo polak
@@sararichardson737 Google is free.
You know what she meant
This basically comes down to the fact there is an extremely high level of "Intolerance" with in the LGBTQ community. The same Intolerance that LGBTQ people supposedly deal with from other groups. I rarely agree with a lot of what Kidology speaks on, as it pertains to her viewpoints, but I do watch her content because it allows me to be aware of differing perspectives, and methods of thought. As for the issue of the level of Hypocrisy in the LGBTQ community, it's a much bigger issue than most people realize, or would want to even admit.
Thank you so much for this comment. It genuinely means a lot to me when people who don't agree with me give me the time of day and express their disagreement or differing perspectives in such a respectful way. I really do appreciate it, so thank you.
yes, sadly lgbtq people are also living in a society that discriminates and separates and just because someone is on the receiving end of oppression in some way shape or form it does not mean that they are magically healed from all the things they as every one else had learned and everyone no matter how privileged or not privileged is capable of being discriminatory in different ways and therefore everyone needs to try and work out their own biases and be aware of them best they can. i also believe that queer people should be criticized for non-inclusive behaviour but they should not be judged for it more than we would judge any not queer person for the similar behaviour. i feel like in these discussions sometimes minorities are held to a much higher standard than others.
Sometimes people become intolerant because they are so used to getting abuse from everyone they would rather be intolerant and safe than tolerant and abused.
Idk if straight men don’t want to be looked at as predators they could try to be less predatory. Just a suggestion. Or they can keep crying about being looked at like predators whatever
@@MeowNow494It has nothing to do with them and everything to do with you. You are prejudiced
@MeowNow494 then don't ask for our support pedo 😂
I can understand a lesbian bar not wanting any men, but how would they even know if the women are straight vs gay???
Strait women don't go to lesbian bars as a rule🙄
@anneloving8405
Who's rule, the bar? If a straight woman is in line to get in a lesbian bar... how would anyone in the bar know she's straight?
@@demgphix i think what anneloving is trying to get at, is straight women, dont like women. in lesbian bars, women hit on women. they hook up with women. straight women are less likely to go just simply because the majority of straight women dont wanna be hit on by the ladies all night.
i've been told straight women are known to go to gay bars for a similar reason, to get a break from being included in hookup/flirting culture since the dudes are preoccupied with the mingling with the other dudes.
I myself can’t understand any of this logic and it’s genuinely concerning if this is the mindset of some queer people. We need allies and straight people are the majority of people. We need equality. Straight people should see how great lesbians are too lol
@@demgphix i dont think anneloving means a genuine law kinda rule, more like, "as a rule of thumb", women who *Aren't* attracted to women aren't very likely to *want* to go to a bar where women regularly hit on other women.
i don't see any issue with straight women or any ally being at a saphic/lesbian bar, it just isnt expected to happen so i'd be surprised if an ally came without a queer friend to hang out with. i would've thought it would be boring.
(then again queer bars aren't a thing where i live, most queers around town mingle at the library, or shops selling rocks or secondhand music.. also bulkbarn, so many queers go to bulk barn around here i've never before met so many queers before bulkbarn showed up i dont know what it is about bulk barn there are so many other shops why do they all go to bulk barn am i going to have to start bringing coupons for bulkbarn everywhere i go to get a date now? im so confused and slightly concerned that all their money will be spent at bulkbarn and thus the music shops and rock shops will go out of buisness rock candy just doesnt cut it for me i yearn to see the coveted stones and plan my proposal nest in the south pole where we will run away together and be warmed by our gay gay love of eachother and rocks bulkbarn is hijacking my plans we must put an end to this at once just please dont tell anyone i feel this way or i may never get a chance to cover someones purchace with a coupon and find love at the bulk barn i would be cast out of the library for my traitorous discretion against my fellow peoples SOS)
Hey Kidology, I really like your content and i agree with you about the way some people in the lgbt community conduct themselves. I cant stand the Queer Kiwi. However, I take issue with you saying that people are not supporting the lgbtq community because of this type of behavior on the part of queer people. Right now there is an incredibly strong backlash to lgbtq rights, and it stems from bigots who want to take our rights away. It doesnt matter what we do, when bigots site the behavior of queer people to justify their bigotry it is just an excuse, they don't actually care. It just feels like victim blaming to say that the backlash is because of us, queer people should be able to be annoying and wrong and still have people support lgbtq rights.
Yeah, I really don’t like it when people go, “this is why LGBTQ+ acceptance is going down” when… a lot of people, especially cishets, already have those negative opinions about us. I agree with some of the points that Kidology made in this video and I do get where she’s coming from. However, I think she has some blind spots regarding queer spaces and how some straight people CAN enact harm onto the queer people in it.
Thank you!!!!!
This reads like the queer version of "not all men"
@@Akelli-gx9cx Very much a false equivalence, but okay.
@@DanKlein1995 care to elaborate?
I have never met a group more judgemental and quick to profile people than those claiming to be inclusive.
TMaybe you should ask yourself WHY they didn't include you, instead of projecting blame.
maybe they should tell me why they exclude me, instead of not giving a reason other than what i was given at birth@@WhosBean
@@linhao3684 Sounds like you got your reason then?
“I learned that very often the most intolerant and narrow-minded people are the ones who congratulate themselves on their tolerance and open-mindedness.” ~ Christopher Hitchens
I left an LDS town five years ago. Trust me inclusive spaces saved my life. I saw others thrown out on to the street because they were gay or dated someone that wasn't white. I left before I could be ostracized. You haven't met many ppl if you think leftist spaces are the least inclusive. At least in these spaces I won't be threatened to be killed by if it "turned out I was gay like my brother" (which I am). But of course they don't usually go shouting this around. You'd only know if you got close enough to them to know their true beliefs or find someone on the Internet who is dumb enough to announce it.
I just feel a little dissapointed in some of the takes given in this video. While I understand why profiling and hostility is wrong and I agree with you there I don’t particularly agree with your point about bars specifically being to get drunk and have casual sex. Or even really the point that women are not interested in bars, this take feels rooted in misogyny a little because it’s like spreading the idea that women are inherently quiet and like demure or shy and that’s why they’d prefer brunch or staying indoors. I’m a young lesbian in a state with 0 lesbian bars, there are only gay bars and there’s only about 3 in the 50 mile radius. I’ve met and spoken to many lesbians of many interests and some of them do prefer brunches and staying indoors but a lot of them also like going out and dancing and having a good time. I am one of those that doesn’t care for a quiet brunch or indoor space. A lot of my friends would love to have a bar also to just hang out in. It serves not just as a place for casual sex and drinking but a third place for lesbians to hang out and befriend each other. The only way i’ve been able to meet lesbians is through dating apps and that’s terrible for both parties. A lot of the time these women are super far away too which makes actually meeting up difficult. If there was a third space to meet and talk to each other that would be nice and less isolating for a lot of people. What I think isn’t considered enough in this video is that straight people and specifically cis straight people have places everywhere to hang out and meet friends and people like them. Straight is the default and norm for a lot of people and I don’t think people who are straight understand that I want to be friends with lesbians too, I want friends who share that with me because it does inherently change how I am perceived and how I live my life. I luckily now have a partner but I remember being single and feeling miserable because it felt like nobody else in my city was gay. Bars may not be third places for straight people to hang out but for gay people and specifically lesbians they can be. I usually really enjoy your content but I did not enjoy the close minded ideas about what lesbians want or don’t want coming from you as if you’re the authority of lesbianism. We are not a monolith and just because you and some women agree that being indoors is fun or that bars are not for hanging out in unless for sex doesn’t mean that other people don’t agree.
A bar isnt a third place. Commodified capitalist institutions cant be a third place.
@lordcrinoline4499this video did more to help the LGBT community that any hypocritical activist could ever do
The idea that clubs are not safe spaces definitely sounds like you've been socialized non-queer too long and don't really understand the kind of spaces that queer people, especially lesbians have been painstakingly curating for themselves for decades. I saw multiple povs of this bar drama from other patrons who were there on this night and they collectively reported that the straight man in question was aggressive and leering, someone even talked about how this guy was hitting on women in a lesbian bar??? This is a part of the idea of safeness you seem to be rejecting and I don't understand that but to each their own. I myself can never and will never accept being hit on by a man in a lesbian bar and if that makes me discriminatory, so be it.
Exactly, it's giving late bloomer baby gay. If she knew the history then she would know that clubs and bars were often the *only* safe spaces queer people had. That's why they try to uphold that and it's seen that way.
I truly dislike when people don't have the full picture but feel the need to correct others🤦🏾♀️
@@sweetie_babie But do y'all have the full picture either? You weren't there, and you seem to misunderstand. She said a place where people get intoxicated can't be 100% "safe" in it's most literal sense. That's all.
@nashinashi0114 a space where you're completely allowed to be yourself without having to stay in the closet is a safe space. Early on in the movement, gay bars were the only places people felt safe to be openly queer, anywhere else they were liable to get hate-crimed. In the bar, they had much less to worry about. A lot of queer people end up having no family as well, so going to a space where everyone is just like you in some way (queer) allowed people to create found families and a sense of community --- the same sense of community that allowed the progress that has been made in the rights of queer people
Saying a bar can't be a safe space is a very limited worldview, especially when you know the history of queer people (at least in the US)
Talking about the literal meaning of safe space when the term 'safe space' isn't used in that way doesn't sound like a good faith argument
@Philo814 yes. Said the same thing but it seems my comment got erased? Very annoyed
I mostly agree with your criticisms of queer kiwi, but I don’t agree with your framing of it as “cosplaying minorities”. The word cosplaying implies that they are preforming as something that they are not, like they are just playing pretend. Kiwi is part of a minority, that is not a costume they take on and off. I think it’s important to understand that minorities are still people and can be just as flawed as everyone else. Just because kiwi is being hypocritical doesn’t mean they aren’t actually a minority anymore. It just means they are hypocritical. I definitely think we need to talk about hypocrisy more in minority communities but it should never be framed as “you’re not really a minority if you have bad opinions/opinions I don’t agree with”.
I agree with your point that the bars should be open to all, but I really dislike that you throw around "real minorities" and essentially fake minorities (thinly veiled behind the explanation, imo, and even if not the indication of real implies fake for the other). young people misunderstand queer culture and have history blind spots. I (27) didnt know what the old bar culture was like until I read stone butch blues, and I would have agreed with the separatist idea out of immaturity in the past. it just makes sense to want a bubble, they're just being naive, but to me that's no reason to call people not real minorities and that's outta pocket.
agreeing with this. Kidology takes issue with Black ppl policing blackness but in this video she proposes "real minorities" vs "cosplaying minorities."
edit: not trying to compare blackness vs queerness, just bringing up that the language she used to define the groups of minority doesn't sit right with me.
@@orcfaeries9227 oh? I mean, idk if I misunderstood, but I thought that her saying about people "cosplaying [their own] minority status" was more about people that try and become a hyper-idealistic version of their minority and trying to discount a good deal of the struggles the minority actually faces in lieu of fixating on some ideologically overblown version of a real problem that actually makes things worse or even creates different problems entirely.....
idk though I'm not sure I'm making sense. like, she said early on in the video somewhere that she didn't mean to say these people weren't oppressed or not of the minority, just that they weren't really facing reality...
@@bisousethiboux I think you're correct based on what I remember from the video. I just think there is probably a better label to put on the ppl who aestheticize and make algorithm-worthy their minority status since the word "cosplaying" usually implies pretending to be something that one is not. Maybe when she says "actual minorities" she means "actual" as in having lived experiences typical to the minority group, while the cosplaying minorities like you said end up approaching issues at unhelpful angles bc like Kidology said they're trying to attract an audience. Actual vs cosplay still doesn't feel like the correct wording to me, though
Yeah this is very nuanced! What about the probably lesbian owners of these spaces? I love when straight people put their dollars on queer hands. We live in such a capitalist society where spending your money as a non-minority on a minority business means more than just being an ally and giving people space.
!!!! Exactly
Ew "i love when straight people put their dollars on queer hands" sounds disgusting. But hey at least you didn't use the slur
@@fabianbiere5653 I agree that Op is off the mark, but it's hardly disgusting. And what slur do you mean?
@@felixstone3.14 it's disgusting because it's dripping with malice and better than thou attitude. Because of it's nature and how it's used "cis" no one calls themselves thus unless they deep in "i need to show i'm an ally so they can either validate my moral superiority complex or so they are not gonna dogpile me"
I think its really interesting that this girl seems to believe cis lesbians exist discretely from other groups and that there isn't like... A rich social tapestry in most people's lives.
Lets say im a cis lesbian and I want to go clubbing and maybe meet someone for a sexual encounter. I'm a cis woman, I'm obviously not going to want to do this on my own.
Who exactly am i supposed to go with if i don't have any cis lesbian friends? Or any female friends? Or maybe i do but none are available?
If we imagine a world in which bars are actually discretely sorted by sex and attraction target then like.... where does anyone go clubbing with a mixed and diverse friend group?
It's almost as if diversity is antithetical to this person's ideals but no... surely it's not that. Right?
I don’t understand your confusion, if you want to go clubbing with a diverse group of friends you can go to pretty much any club that’s out there why do you have to push yourself into spaces where you are not wanted?
@@MeowNow494 well in this scenario I AM wanted - I'm a lesbian cis woman looking for another lesbian to hook up with. I am objectively in the correct place, there is no better place for me. I just...can't take any friends?? Like it's LAME
95% of bars cater to everyone. What's wrong with a lesbian bar catering purely to... lesbians? There are so few spaces for them as is.
I agree with you
Even if one were to agree that the Queer Kiwis assumption that there was a massive line up of lesbians and Lgbt+ people waiting to get into this bar, then her real problem shouldn't be with the straight guy who went in to meet his friends. It should be with the person at the door letting people through and the bar owners. Clearly they had no issue with his presence, so the argument should be with them.
This is the most factual and truest comment in this comment section and I want to thank you for pointing that out.
I'm truly curious about what this Queer Kiwi person would say about non passing trans women entering a lesbian bar...
queer kiwi wouldn’t care if a clocky trans lady came in. it’s the cis het that they aren’t about
This is what I was thinking!!
It wouldn't happen bc too many lesbian bars are full of terfs. I'm a lesbian and my gf is a trans woman and we wouldn't be caught dead in a lesbian bar unless we knew beforehand that it is completely safe for trans people
Why? They're women.
Often I want to say to Queer Kiwi "Girl, it's not that serious" But at this point in this video (Kidology comparing cis ppl as a minority to trans lesbians as a minority; nope that's not a good comparison) and judging by this comment I am worried I am accidentally on terf RUclips and that would be gross
Am I on terf RUclips? I'm new here
She'd be okay with it kiwi is not a transphobe
For what it's worth from my gay male perspective: this just isn't an issue offline. There are always people with a protectionist mentality verging on exclusionary. Is this not more a case of the vocal minority of online activists engaging in "discourse" with themselves and megaphone. The moderate majority not in the picture? I can't speak for lesbian spaces but I've never seen this behaviour in gay bars.
Yeah I want to validate peoples experiences, and yeah gay bars are mainly meant for gay men, but there are tons of stories out there where women want to have a safe space too away from grimy straight men and they say they get dirty looks from gay men still.
As a gay man, not my problem.
I have heard anecdotally that gay men don't like women going to "their" bars, which is a popular activity for women who want to go to a bar and be left alone.
@@CaulkMongler I understand I'm sure it happens and I'm not saying it's never an issue, I've definitely had the same experience in non gay clubs that felt quite hostile if you weren't there to pick up "birds". My overall sense it's the exception rather than the rule and is potentially inflated via socials.
@@dianamiller3307Yeah, I'm sure some.
It seems to me that people have misunderstood what minorities and advocates initially have meant when labeling places as “safe spaces.” Safe spaces are places that are intended to be absent of harm and discrimination for marginalized groups, with the caveat that this harm is related to their marginalization. Lesbian bars should be safe spaces, meaning a safe place where queer women can engage in homosexual activities without scrutiny or harassment, not a beautiful utopia for women.
I had liked thequeerkiwi's videos for a while, but I find myself getting irritated listening to some of her points lately and it really sucks. I completely understand that the trauma she has been through makes her a bit guarded against cis men, but I am queer and have also faced trauma from cis men in the past. I would much rather everyone be in a space they can all enjoy. And very good point about bars: maybe some other type of space could be an ideal "safe space" besides a bar. Maybe a queer library/book store? Or a queer craft store? I know I would definitely enjoy both of those spaces 😊
That's just it though. People basing their viewpoints on who they identify and sympathize with is the whole problem. Trauma is valid but it is also fetishized and glamorized in such a way that content creators can use their trauma as a way to sell you their view point. I would argue that this is the cause for supposedly progressive spaces becoming so exclusive and militant. Young people have been set up by online culture and content creators to be dragged around by their sympathies like a leash.
@@RiceShouldBeFluffy I definitely see and agree with your points. I just don't understand why people think they are any better than cis het people and what they have historically been doing to queer people when they talk this way? It is a bit confusing and seems like they are actively hindering the progressive path we (queer people) have been on. I just wish we could all get along and be free to be who we are without hindering anyone else's rights in the process. Hasn't that been the big fight we have been fighting this whole time? When did it change? 😞
Queer libraries/book stores and art spaces sound amazing! Also a better place for queer people who aren’t old enough to go to bars or simply don’t care for those environments
@@alyssapinon9670the thing is these things already exist but the rich elite ones that own them keep the poor ones out.
I completely agree with you! I would love to frequent both of those suggestions, it sounds so fun. I had also watched and liked her videos but stopped watching because there were points where she seemed to not know when to put that highly defensive attitude to rest.
I actually have been to the cubbyhole and idk what she’s talking about when she says there must have been a line to get in. I went there on a Saturday night and there was plenty of room. There were a couple men in there with their friends (I’m assuming they were gay but maybe not) and nobody seemed to have an issue with it. As long as you’re not one of those men who go to these bars to harass lesbian women, I don’t really see the problem.
I've been watching kidology for quite a while now, and I genuinely enjoy her content, but I've had a bad feeling about her as of late. I think this video in particular really illustrates that. I agree with a lot of points she tends to have, but she seems to lean into this cynicism, and almost a sort of pick me attitude. Sure there are bad apples in ever community, but to pin the decline of lgbt+ acceptance on some people you don't like and gatekeep their minority status from them because you disagree with some sour takes is just plain weird. The type of audience this kind of content harbors is also awful, on this very video the comments are full of transphobes, terfs, homophobes and the "anti-woke" mob who leave all nuance and run with what she says. I really do understand the need for conversation on these topics, but kid's attitude in these videos is completely antithetical and useless to this goal.
Yes, there are bad apples, and she is criticizing them. Is there anything wrong with that? She also never gatekeeped their minority status instead arguing that these people are part of the minority who are not nearly as accepting as they say they are.
That said, you do have a point with the decline of lgbt+ acceptance thing how much this contributes to the decline of lgbt+ acceptances is up for debate
By disassociating form the "bad apples" she's doing a lot for the community
@@imnotnotgameiacmaniac5327she kind of did gatekeep it by calling them not real minorities as opposed to real minorities which was a weird take whether you like her or not.
Okay, so I have a few thoughts on this and this comment might be quite long, but I’ll do my best to summarize my thoughts in a timely manner.
First things first, I wanna say I DO agree with you on some things. Obviously, assuming someone’s sexuality and saying they should be kicked out of a queer space is a huge dick move because you simply don’t know. Even using your trauma that you had with people who look like the person you’re kicking out is not an excuse. Queer spaces should be open to those who are questioning their sexuality or gender, or even those who just to feel safe. I also can’t stand a lot of what Queer Kiwi says, especially when she used a lot of gender essentialist language to describe cishet men vs. trans men. Certainly left a bad taste in my mouth.
*With that being said,* that’s not what happened in this specific scenario. The lesbian who came up to the straight guy wasn’t trying to kick him out simply because of his perceived straightness. If anything, her first concern was that he was blocking the bathrooms, not even standing in line and she had to go. Instead, she wanted him to just move out of the way, not tell to him to leave.
That was when he got a bit of an attitude and it certainly wasn’t because he was a cishet man. I can assure you that if he just said sorry and simply moved out of the way, there probably wouldn’t have been problems and she probably wouldn’t have had to ask if he was with there with anybody.
Of course, I’m sure he wasn’t there to try and pick up lesbians, but it was the energy that he was given off after being asked to move that made the lesbian feel unsafe in that moment. After that, he came back up to her and asked if there was a problem if he came there alone, to which she replied that it absolutely would. He, the straight woman who was invited, and her friend group got all mad and angrily jumped at her to his defense, kind of implying that it was their entitlement to this space that was the issue. Not the fact that he was straight because if that was the case, the lesbian could’ve asked the straight woman (Lexi) the same exact thing.
The thing is, lesbian bars have been dwindling down for decades and they’re really a sacred space for lesbians and queer women to spend time together without being hit on by straight men. Even as a cis hetero-presenting bi man, I wouldn’t even go to a lesbian bar because I know that’s not a space for me. Now, if I was invited by a lesbian friend of mine, I wouldn’t turn it down, but I would still be mindful of the queer women there.
And while we’re at it, cishet women should also be extremely cognizant when they go to a gay/queer male bar, especially considering how their mere presence can also set alarm bells off for many gay/bi/queer men there who have had traumatic experiences with cishet women. Whether it’s groping, being gawked at like they’re zoo animals or being fetishized, it’s not exactly a space for them to be entertained, even when they feel safe to get away from creepy cishet men. They can also pose a threat and just be predatory to queer people, just like cishet men. Not to mention, them getting defensive (and sometimes even violent) when they get hit on by lesbian/bi/queer women. Plus, a lesbian bar is not a cishet women’s safe space either. They’re still guests and need to act accordingly so, just like cis men.
Obviously, not all cishets act like this, but there have been far too many experiences where cishet people are invited to these queer spaces, only to reek havoc when they don’t always get their way or take up space where they shouldn’t be. If a straight person is *that* upset about not wanting to go to a gay/lesbian bar or being told that some queer people might not want them there, then that’s a battle they have to deal with. It’s not up to queer folks to fight those battles for them. Especially when they have everywhere else they can go to. Hell, there’s literally no shortage of queer spaces that don’t allow cishet people in, which makes their options already applicable to 99.9% of the world.
I’m looking through some of these comments and I’m realizing how this discourse of “straight men in lesbian spaces” or “straight people of queer spaces” has now turned into “men in women’s spaces,” and how TERF-y that turned into. Hmm, interesting how one privileged demographic (straight people) gets coddled in this discussion, but another privileged group (men) is mostly talked about in a weirdly negative way OR just more understanding that women can be weary of men, but can’t give the same benefit of the doubt to queer people being weary of cishet people, especially in their spaces.
I have mixed feelings on this one... no I don't think anyone should be profiling anyone by the way they look and asking them to leave and no I don't think anyone should be banned from entering based on being a straight male because as you say this would involve either profiling or invasive questioning. I do however feel as though straight cis men to be respectful should probably not go to lesbian bars just so people can have their space without feeling on edge / judged. I do not enjoy clubbing (except for gay bars) due to the constant inappropriate harassment which has always come from straight men, as well as the sexualising comments they have made towards openly lesbian couples I have been with in "non-gay" clubs. I know it's not all men, but there defo are men who would turn up for inappropriate reasons to a lesbian club and I feel not going to one or two gay clubs in the local area when you could go to literally any other club is a small sacrifice for a straight cis male to make so that women and queer people can feel comfortable on a night out. As I said you can't police this, it is up to peoples own judgement but I do think a one strike and you're out policy would be fair too (eg if you do choose to go into one of these lesbian bars with a friend... and you act inappropriately you should be immediately barred).
Personally I find it frustrating you focus on some random individuals opinion instead of the lesbian who came out publicly and spoke out about her experience with the straight woman and her straight friend being randomly aggressive to her at the bar.
But isn’t it her word against theirs in this situation at this point, unless there were more whitenesses? She says they were randomly aggressive, they shay she was randomly aggressive first.
Omg it was the cubbyhole? I’m a lesbian and I felt uncomfortable there. Went once and never went back. I don’t feel comfortable in the “queer” community as a lesbian. I also don’t understand why straight men are seen as the enemy. If you feel that way, you have a problem.
I'll be pretty honest, I feel very uncomfortable with the idea of people who aren't queer frequenting gay safe spaces. Only because my experience of them is straight girls immediately acting inappropriately to the sapphic goers for daring to have an interest in them therein ruining the entire atmosphere.
and experience and men harassing women who are lesbians and as the bar is supposed to be a lesbian bar something that realistically should have been apparent to such men.
I don't agree with profiling as it is generally unreliable or any vigilante justice (i.e, confronting such men and women on their presence) however I'll be honest, for me what makes lesbian bars feel safe for me is the absence of straight people the same way that what makes women only gyms usually safe for women is the absence of men.
But I'm curious to see what Kidology's perspective on this is, and if it'll change mine.
11:37 yes lesbians can be as predatory and as toxic as straight men. but also that’s not the norms in the sapphic community, in the queer scene in my city literally everyone prioritize consent and everyone is so scared of making anyone uncomfortable. yes bar is inherently not a safe space but in a space that only has sapphic women as a lesbian myself i feel much safer. because every single time i step in a queer bar or a straight bar only men try to approach me in really creepy ways and can’t take no as an answer.
Lesbian relationships have just as high rates of domestic violence as straight ones do.
Around 9:00 when the Queer Kiwi is talking, it reminds me of that tiktok where the person (a POC) was saying if you (a POC) bring your white friend to hangout with other POC's, it is YOUR responsibility to ask every single person if they are okay with it, because (something to the effect of) "Not everybody wants to deal with their shit". I think I first saw that video on this channel, actually.
OMG i thought the same thing!! 😅
This is racism....and what kiwi is doing is sexism
All I can think is like bruh I am grown I am not about to sit here and ask other grown folk permission to bring a friend to something that isn't a wedding or have RSVPs or some shit.
That’s just straight up racism.
bein gay is a choice + *Don't translate..
भवतः हृदयस्य धड़कनं कतिपयेषु घण्टेषु स्थगयिष्यति, अस्य शापस्य मुक्तिं प्राप्तुं एकमात्रं मार्गं मम चैनलस्य सदस्यतां कुर्वन्तु*
I think a problem with any community is that there will always be egotistical and often narcissistic members who only bond with said community because they see other's in it as extensions of themselves, and because they have narcissistic tendencies, they make themselves the center of attention and elect themselves "speaker of the group", so when people in that community do anything wrong or immoral, they are quick to ignore and dismiss it, because anyone that is a reflection of them doing wrong conflicts with their belief that they themselves are incapable of being wrong.
bein gay is a choice + *Don't translate..
भवतः हृदयस्य धड़कनं कतिपयेषु घण्टेषु स्थगयिष्यति, अस्य शापस्य मुक्तिं प्राप्तुं एकमात्रं मार्गं मम चैनलस्य सदस्यतां कुर्वन्तु*
I was in a bar that typically has all white customers. The friend I went with was white, so I was the only black patron. The bar manager started on me for existing as the only black customer, accusing me of foul language for no apparent reason. The manager then proceeded to swear at me. I wasn't doing anything, just sitting at a table with my friend after we'd both purchased two drinks. It's dehumanising, being profiled for existing as a minority in a majority environment. This applies to my entire town, which is mostly white, so it's not a case of me deciding to be a minority.
I do want to make a distinction because you don’t seem to fully get what "safe space" means in a queer sense. It doesn't mean you are safe in every sense of the word. It means you're safe to be open and obviously queer, and you're safe from the pressure of trying to deal with the expectations of a heteronormative society while you're there. No one's saying that there arent predatory lesbians in lesbian bars, no one can guarantee that. But that's really not what "safe space" means, in this context.
personally I don’t think straight people should be going to gay bars/clubs by themselves. If they are with a queer friend then I think it’s fine. I go to this gay dance club near me and it’s predominantly lesbians and gay men which I like that both groups are included under one roof. But last Halloween there were a surge of straight couples, which I found distasteful because I enjoy meeting other non-straight people and having fun. I think they flock here because it’s more fun than a sports bar 😶🌫️
Deal with it. You can't tell ppl where they can and can't go. They're not bothering you
These are places for meeting other queer people where there aren’t many spots to do so
@@neverforget5350who are you to say they aren’t bothered???
@@neverforget5350 funny how whenever a queer person exists in any space, people has the exact opposite reaction of your comment
@@cookiecrazycool Poorly aged white ♀️
did you even bother watching the lesbians response video where its clearly shown the straight girl just created a false narrative to make her seem like a "aggro man hating lesbo" lol. the issue wasnt are straight men allowed it was,, did he go alone to a lesbian bar or was he invited. the man literally went out his way to start queer discourse n then got upset when the lesbian was like "yea if u were a cishet dude alone at a lesbian bar without an invitation thatd be weird"
That queer kiwi was someone i watched in high school when i wanted to feel included, but as i grew up, the more and more i was eventually just getting mean girl energy from her videos. She acts like shes inherently morally superior because she believes being queer makes her exemt from any criticism. She doesn't have a point most of the time. She'll kinda act like there is no nuance between staight folks and they're all homophobic and queer people should only tolerate them because of an invented stereotype of a heterosexual. Also, homophobes arent watching her videos, yet she frames it as if shes creating a GSA of types of videos that create undertaning, but they aren't for people that dont already agree with her. When shes creating more conflict by assuming malice on behalf of strangers on the intermet with no context and then acting petty. Optically a bad look.
As a disabled woman, I see this so much with disabled bathrooms and parking spaces, of people with less visible disabilities being profiled and that they shouldn't be there has caused so much harm. Let people do what they want, and assume that they deserve to be there, cos its no one elses buisness, and going out of your way to cause confrontaton is only going to encourage those attitudes
I just find it so ironic that, when I was a teenager, we had to rep from GRIS (Groupe de Recherche et d'Intervention Sociale or Research and Social Intervention Group in English) who came to talk about homosexuality, persecution, a bit of history and all that jazz.
There was a woman and a man. The woman was dressed pretty casual, Same goes for the man: a big, burly, fat man with a beard, short hair, checkered shirt and jeans. Almost a stereotypical lumberjack like style.
He was gay.
And that was one of his big point: people don't look gay. They ARE gay. He made it super clear that judging someone on appearance alone is a waste of time, and only encourages discrimination and what not. AND HE IS SO FRICKING RIGHT!
Erm, you just described a Bear.
The part at the beginning about safe spaces is bonkers, of course people know they are not 100% safe in a queer bar, but to allow straight men it makes it unequivocally more dangerous for women to be in these spaces, there you have it
The commodification of oppression? There's gotta be some blog post or something on this. As soon as it became profitable (monetarily or through internet attention currency) these folks started popping up everywhere.
that seems like a very accurate term for this
First rule of capitalism: Everything must be profitable to be worth anything. I’m honestly surprised people are just now figuring all this out. If you can’t sell your identity as a brand, good luck trying to get an algorithm to plaster your face anywhere or promote your content.
If there's not a blog or study on it, it's a good video essay title.
Rainbow capitalism?
a german philosophy professor talks about it in his channel as "profilicity". His channel is called Carefree Wandering. Slavoj Zizek has been talking and writing about it for years as well. Here in the third world (I´m from Brazil) it´s pretty obvious for us. Our theorists even talk about the queer online phenomenon as a new form of colonialism.
I feel like a lot of your analysis near the middle of the video presumes a very capitalist mindset, which I feel is a really narrow way to look at it. I understand that you might be explaining why things are the way they are, but the person you’re arguing against is clearly describing the way they would ideally like things to work. Instead of approaching that argument (why queer women might want a safe space), you instead argue that that desire is unattainable due to supply and demand. Attainability was never a subject of conversation, just a desire for these spaces. I think this makes your argument weaker because it feels like you’re arguing sideways. Why not talk directly about why you think so-called safe spaces for queer women are bad, if that’s a position you hold? Why not address the implicit argument rather than dismissing it by tangent?
Also I find it confusing that you complain about people profiling based on appearance while also using phrases like “real lesbian” and “cosplay” to describe people who agree with you Vs those you see as insufficiently queer based on how they think about queer issues. These feel weird to me together. Also arguing that cishet men are a minority in certain situations because most people there aren’t like them is something I hear all the time, but doesn’t really work. Women make up half the population but are considered a minority because of social power dynamics. The same applies here.
Otherwise your video did make me think, and even though I have a few questions about what you really meant, I enjoyed watching!
How on earth do you watch this video and think any of it is capitalist 😂 like what cause she just literally pointed out the fact that we live in a capitalist society 🙃
@@ollieliddell3868 The argument “gay bars should be open because it makes them economically viable” is either a capitalist argument that uses economic viability to justify the practicality of an idea or it fails to actually justify its claim. I don’t even necessarily disagree or agree with the claim, I just want a better argument that actually explains *why* is all.
nothing wrong with some exclusivity and othering in 3rd spaces. its why different spaces exist instead of just a big homogenous one
Completely agree with you but I also wanna add: As a gay man I have no problem with one or two cishet people in a gay bar, but if like the majority of visiting people are cishets (both men and women) then I have a problem with it. Clubs are not only here for drinking and dancing, but also for making out and getting to know people in a more organic way. Most people are straight and therefore when you go to a "normal" club, it is very likely that the majority of people there are alos cishet. But if you specifically go to a gay club you can (or should) assume that the majority is gay/bi/trans/whatever. Again nothing against one or two cishet people in a gay bar, but when im talking to 6 different guys and all of them are straight, then its exhausting, if straight cis women come her for "sAfE sPacE" then it´s annoying bc they have so many other clubs, even women clubs. For lesbian bars I would say men aren´t allowed at all. Bi and lesbian women? Of course, but men, doesn´t matter if straight or gay, doesn´t even matter if flamboyant girly gay, men are not allowed in lesbian bars
rainbow hair girl's arguments about trans men specifically feel like.. so infantilizing to me lol
Tbh the only people I see in an "uproar" about this are yt queers that love to play oppression olympics. All while making "safe spaces" un-safe for any people who aren't yt 😮💨 I really appreciate all of your videos! I'm grateful you share so much about different topics
Do you hear how dismissive you're being?
@@msjkramey damn you feel called out
@@gorl5098 I mostly don't take people seriously who say stuff like "the oppression Olympics." It's not some dumb competition. And there should be places where everyone who needs it can feel safe
I am black and gay. I’m wondering do places have to be inclusive? For example, do gays clubs have to accept queer people? Do queers have to accept straight people? Do straight clubs have to accept LGBTQ+ patronage?
Does excluding people from certain places or events mean that you want to actively harm them?
My mother also told that “not everything is not for everybody”. Before you ask, I only hang out at gay spaces.
What really hit me like a truck is that listening to Queer Kiwi's opinions reminded me of myself. Back when I was a teenager and young adult, I was really into the whole gamergate "egads women ruin comics" ideology, and looking back at it, holy hell was it embarrassing. I would make the same claims, just swap "cis het men" with "femoid" or whatever and "lesbian bars" with "insert flavor of the month outrage bait here". Thank you for making this video, it really reminded me of how happy I am that I grew the hell up and started on working on how to not be a hateful little gremlin.
im happy you went towards positivity! i still like to watch some videos about media getting ruined bc its like drugs for me lol. if i get a family i wint have the time to watch anymore lol😅
No this entire thing reminded me of when I was a teenager auagahahaga you are not alone 😭😭😭😭
When was that?
@@tobiaslawrence8928 pre therapy, so last march a year ago.
There should be no straight male bartenders and no straight male guests in queer bars/clubs and especially not in lesbian bars/clubs to prevent sexual harassment and rape. The Abbey queer bar in West Holllywood which is unfamous for so many spiked drinks with drugged raped women cases *for decades* are frightening and concerning...! 😒
Cishet men may be more likely to do those things statistically, however I don’t think simply barring them from places solves the actual societal issue. The dangerous thing here is that Cishet men are not the only people capable of such acts, to assume so could give one a false sense of security when in reality queer people can and do behave that way as well. I don’t say this to diminish your viewpoint at all, nor do you have to agree with me, however I do think it’s valuable to consider this as food for thought.
That is horrific about the Abbey bar though, I searched it up and this really goes to show the lack of justice that is brought to these cases. I wouldn’t trust that establishment at all and it is long overdue to be investigated properly.
@@PinoccThePiccolo Okay, I should have been more precise: There should be no cisgender non-gay men in such places, because all of the rapists in there were cisgender men - who were of course not homosexual.
I’m not defending the behavior in either vid you reacted to, but I think denying that queer bars are safe spaces (meaning - you should feel more confident that you won’t be hate crimed or hit on by straight people AND that the straight ppl in that bar are agreeing to those terms as well) is a mutation of the historical record and reeks with desire to collapse queer culture into heteronormativity. At least the way I understand it, “safe space” really refers to physical safety, not a hypersensitive expectation that you’re not going to encounter things you don’t like. It also seems like you’re denying that profiling is a means of survival for minorities and that there’s a slight difference depending on your positionality in the interaction. Idk you’re being really harsh on the queer people in this instance without commenting on the historical context that underpins these interactions between straight people and gay people. Just heavy lifting for homophobes lol and also neither of those girls in the videos said anything about trans lesbians - you did. Conflating hesitancy toward straight men with disdain for trans lesbians is not cool and cloaking it in “reasonability” is also..not cool. Love your videos, just sorely disagree with this one.
Also blaming queer people for homophobia? As if any behavior from any group would be a reason to justify “losing support”…that conditionality just shows how far we have to go. I know you’re early in your journey but I hope you realize that you should never have to perform for acceptance. LGBTQ+ “support” should exist based on the fact that we are human beings.
Yeah, this video of hers really rubbed me the wrong way. Like I do agree that you shouldn’t prejudge someone and assume their sexuality or gender, just by the way the look (and there does need to be more conversations around that), that’s not what happened here. We’re talking about a specific instance where a straight guy was invited by his straight female friend (who was invited by her lesbian friend) and just so happened to be blocking the bathrooms. The lesbian who came up to him was waiting in line and saw that he was in her way, so she asked him to move. THAT’S the first interaction they had, not her going up to him and asking why is he there as a straight man.
Afterwards, he got a bit grumpy and that’s when she asked if he was here with anybody. I can only imagine that he just said sorry and moved out of the way, there probably wouldn’t have been any issues. He then asked if it would be a problem if he was there alone and when she said yes, he, and the straight woman’s friend group got all defensive and jumped at her, making her feel even more uncomfortable (and possibly even more unsafe).
The issue is really the entitlement and not that he was a straight man in a gay/lesbian bar. Of course, that can certainly be odd to a lot of the queer women there, but like I said, if he just did as he was told, then this drama wouldn’t have started.
Queer spaces are spaces for queer people to get away from cishet people and most queer spaces don’t randomly kick out cishets simply just for being there. The only reason why they would be kicked out is because they were causing a nuisance. Something that happens a LOT in these spaces. No reason to appease the feelings of the dominant in-group, considering that they have every other space in the world that already caters to them in every way.
@@DanKlein1995 I totally agree. And, unless anyone has been to cubbyhole idk how else you would know this, but the bathrooms are literally in the middle of a tiny walk way between the wall and the crowded bar. It’s so plausible that ppl who have never been there would be spatially unaware and block the entrance, so the story from the person who confronted him totally adds up. Everyone is crammed in the room and it’s honestly so hard to navigate. Scuffles like the one she describes happen all the time with queer people getting annoyed trying to navigate the bar, this one is just unique bcs it happened between a queer person and a straight person. Lastly, Kidology acknowledges that bars are for drinking and being messy. I don’t think it’s fair to extrapolate and pathologize queer behavior from this interaction..just feels super contrarian for no real gain.
@@kellyrogers6143 Oh yeah! I’ve never been to Cubbyhole, but I heard it was pretty small and sheltered. Even looking through some of the photos on Google, it looks PACKED with a whole lotta people in there, so I can imagine how annoying it must be to navigate that space with so many people around. To be fair, the guy there probably didn’t have much space to move if it was that crowded on a Friday night (I believe). Although, he could’ve still made an effort once the space was more available. I can imagine that the bathrooms must be pretty small too. I also agree that she (Kidology) shouldn’t have pathologized the lesbian for assuming the guy’s identity when her main objective was to just go to the bathroom, nor did she assume anything about the guy in the first place. If this interaction DID go down with her asking, “Why are you here as a straight man? You should leave!” then Kidology would’ve had a point and we would have a completely different conversation all together.
@@kellyrogers6143she's not harsh on queer people, she's harsh on hateful activists that instantly betrayed decades of activism the moment they got a little leverage
It's incredible how you don't realize how problematic these people are
11:25 totally agree with this! i have had other gay women be predatory to me before too, and the nature of bars and clubs in general are not safe spaces even if they are queer. - signed queer woman
Thisssss, the way that sapphic "spaces" and relationships are always portrayed as a safe space for women made me so naive when it came to who I trusted and what I allowed to happen to me bc "there's no way this person has ill intent or misjudgement bc they understand my struggle!" I feel like it's actually a very dangerous mindset, and maybe this is off topic but I'm also sick of the romanticization of sapphic relationships like they sanctuaries against abuse, when they're not, I've been cheated on, manipulated and sexually abused in past relationships, men and women. And i remember it being so much more difficult to process when it was a woman bc I thought that as women we just inherently understood that no means no bc we are the main victims of sexual violence and unfortunately that's just not the case. Anyways I hope this all makes sense
“I’ll just pee on the ground like your ancestors”
you are a comedic relief
I've received more harassment from within the LGBTQ+ "community" (I hesitate to say community because sometimes, mainly online, it just...isn't one) about my sexual and gender identity than from my straight and cisgender peers, even directly from my community, which is pretty split down the middle when it comes to sociopolitical topics and cultural norms. It is frequently dependent on my parents' income growing up, where I live, what I look like, my race, and even the fact that my gender identity doesn't affect how I look (I "appear" cisgender) so it's not really something that affects my life.
That aside, where the hell is the empathy when people are trying to defend rude or nonsensically aggressive behavior? When someone taps me on the shoulder, it startles me, and when I'm startled, I get momentarily grouchy. The woman who tapped the man decided to take that personally where there was no need.
Almost every single point in this video was on point. The only thing I disagreed with was when you said that going to a bar or club is to get wasted and find casual sex. I think the current 20-30s-year-olds are beginning to shape spaces like this because they don't want to do those things, so some of the norms may be changing in some bars and clubs. You're right about that being the majority of cases, though.
Thank you for your perspectives on this!! These are issues that nobody wants to talk about (including several of my friends) for fear of being ostracized by their fellow marginalized peers and causing conflict in general, and your rationality and frankness is a breath of fresh air.
You hit the nail on the head! The amout of actual racism and other discriminatory practices in LGBTQ spaces in unreal.
As someone who, originally seeing this discourse, was entirely on the "man bad" side of things; I really appreciate your perspective here and the care you take in giving it.
This video really helped me reevaluate the way I was thinking about either side. Especially as you were able point out the hypocrisy in the takes others seemed to have.
Picking apart the sweeping generalizations QueerKiwi made helped reframe how I approached this sort of discourse. Especially because, as someone who once identified as a trans man (I don't identify with gender at all nowadays), hearing that comment about how "soft" and caring a trans man might be in this situation compared to a cis man.. was baffling. Especially coming from the mouth of a queer person.
Trans men have been desperately fighting this "soft and sweet" boy stereotype for so fucking long, it's mind blowing to me that QueerKiwi attempted to address bad faith generalizations by using some shitty ones themselves!
The moment we all finally let go of our biases and pointless labels is the moment we'll finally have some damn peace in this community (that will never happen)
The soft bit makes me laugh because my trans bf is a bossy, loud and headstrong dude. Who literally got in a fistfight at work when his coworker said smth transphobic to them. Such uwu many soft.
This seems so blown out of proportion. 1 random person (not staff) complains or acts rude and it’s suddenly a “phenomenon”? How whiny. I feel like most rooms have that one person who is looking for a problem.
Interesting breakdown on the economy of lesbian bars. “Straight” clubs throw people out all the time for having off vibes. Clubs are problematic like that. Cis het men get profiled by staff constantly. Straight clubs literally charge single men money to enter and have quotas. It’s important to put queer bars in that context as well.
I could listen to you talk about absolutely anything all day. Your voice, accent, and opinion are so calming and balanced. Addicted to you 😅
I've noticed the attitude of LGBTQ spaces has changed with LGBTQ youth and young adults. I work with quite a few queer people and I am gay myself and there's a general census that we want to clarify that we aren't "one of those" gay people because of how immature and intolerant some gay people act and behave.
You missed the point of the fact that female oriented jobs & women generally get paid less than men. Logically, men have more money to spend at bars/clubs in the first place, which also means it’s more likely men that are opening new bars & clubs. I don’t think men are likely to open clubs geared specifically toward women or lesbians…right?
For reference: check out the opening night of La Camionera in London, hundreds of people showed up, there is 100% money to be made here.
I don’t think lesbian bars should be explicitly exclusive & i hate entitled white queer tears generally, but in many places lesbian dominated spaces are not common & it’s logical for people to feel protective over the ones that do exist - even if those boundaries are not explicit. Doesn’t justify rude behavior, but does explain why people are touchy about this stuff.
I love you for being so strong to talk about these topics publicly.
I just don’t thinking having spaces for specific people is wrong, especially when those groups have been historically disenfranchised by the groups trying to enter them. I think framing these types of questions as vulnerable on the internet is also disingenuous, and at best a really generous way of perceiving it
I'm a demi-boy, and I wholeheartedly agree with you. I've had this same conversation about gay bars I've been to. I really don't like when people become so hyper-vigilant and protective they start presumptively ascribing harm and shutting people out.
I get the need to have third-spaces that cater to specific demographics, but IMO anyone should be allowed in that space, so long as they are being supportive of its intended purpose. It's not fun that some people are taking genuinely bad experiences, and using it as justification to excluded people that I'm happy are there.
I don't think the solution is to swing the pendulum so far in the opposite direction that we start excluding cis-straight people and treating them as inherently selfish and/or predatory for wanting to share in queer spaces.
So long as they know what the vibe is, it makes me really happy to see cis-straight people championing the queer community, and sharing in our art and fun. It's what I dreamed of as a kid, and I really don't want to start putting up a new set of walls.
20:14 "To not bring *those people* into these spaces". Just imagine this said about literally ANY other group of people
The part they just don’t see or fully understand what they are doing. Crazy times going backwards
Queer ideology is so regressive. Lgbt worked to assimilate into society just for the cis het tumblr gender aesthetic crowd to ruin it all. Why be a boring cis straight girl if you can say you’re a Demi girl trans masc non binary with a system! 😂
Or if the straights said it about them?
@@tobiaslawrence8928minorities creating a space for themselves is not the same as a majority group excluding minorities and you KNOW that
The assumption that all cis het men feel safe wherever they go by default really annoys me. The fact they might have anxiety issues, or feel intimidated, or are maybe just quiet and maybe feel safer and comfortable in more women (straight or queer, cis and trans) dominated spaces, is lost on some people.
Fantastic video Kidology, you always really bring a strong level headedness to drama like this.
Or just men in general, since queer men (cis or trans) also don’t feel safe in a whole lotta spaces either. Especially not in most cishet spaces.
Who is saying that?
Yup everyone has a hard time on this godforsaken rock. But i myself am not liking what they became 1 that made up word you used showed me hypocracy first 2. There are a worrying amount of people so sick in the head they think they can change sexuality/attraction by intimidation for example transpeople telling gay people they are transphobic for not wanting "fanny" or "sausage" where it doesn't belong
@@msjkrameymajority of so called feminists
I like the Queer Kiwi because she seems to mean well, but sometimes I feel she doesn't see the real world. There's so much depth and nuance and the oppression olympics fail to capture it, transforming the world in something even more sinister than it already is. No one is just one thing, nothing ia black and white, not even cis white men.
She clearly doesn't mean well if she's ok with segregation
I've seen something similar in feminist groups. I am still baffled from that time when I apologised because I kept interrupting a friend because he was making slightly longer pauses than what I'm accostumed to and I am not very good at conversations in general, and he said "no it's fine, men have been interrupting women for millenia, now it's out turn." Uhm. No. Respectfully no.
I wish more woman were like you and less man like Tate.