Ask the Energy Advisor - Heat Pump Water Heaters
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- Опубликовано: 4 июн 2024
- You've probably heard of heat pumps, and you've definitely heard of water heaters. But how do these two work together to provide you even better energy efficiency through the installation of a heat pump water heater? Learn the mechanics and benefits of heat pump water heaters from Noble REMC Energy Advisor Brian Hawk.
UPDATE: Because of the overwhelming response we received to this Ask the Energy Advisor installation, we created a follow-up video to answer some of the more popular questions: • Ask the Energy Advisor...
Are they really that efficient… all you are doing is stealing heat from the house… if in an insulated basement that isn’t being used with minimal heating then I can understand that saving energy, but if using heat that occupants require you need to run the furnace (or other heat source) to maintain the room temp… is that factored into the efficiency rating?
We highly recommend installing heat pump water heaters in basements because they do utilize a bit of the home’s heat and they create more noise than a standard electric water heater. However, the savings from choosing the heat pump water heater is going to far outweigh any additional heating costs, primarily when installed in the basement. Also, efficiency ratings are based on the equipment and not on its surroundings, as everyone's home/business is different.
Yep theyre really more efficient. Waaay cheaper power bills due to them if set reasonably. 130* or less.
Not everyone puts them in the house. Mine is outside.
@@CT-vm4gf that wouldn’t cut it in Northern Minnesota … it would freeze/lines would freeze for 4-5 months a year… that is why I asked about if efficiency was based on having to heat the room space back to 70° f as mine would go adjacent to living space and I’d have to either insulate our utility room and duct work in it or pay a premium (not calculated in their efficiency model) for additional natural gas to heat it more than it already is…
Correct me if I'm wrong but i believe these are most useful in a warmer climate. Places where water heaters can be placed in unconditioned garage, etc
I bought this water heater ruclips.net/user/postUgkx8G49mV71sAzUl9shXyLW-r3XgHH9EVh1 for use in my bus conversion. I installed it under my kitchen sink and it is fed by a high efficiency on-demand LP water heater. It is both a backup hot water source as well as a water saving device since we have hot water on demand rather than having to wait for the gas on demand water heater to finish its ignition cycle. I decided on this water heater due to the fact that it only draws 1300watts when it's ON instead of the 1500 watts that most Water heaters this size draw. In an RV a couple hundred watts can be a big deal. With very low standby losses, I don't have to worry about excessive power consumption. When propane is not available for our gas water heater, in conjunction with our low flow shower head there is enough hot water available to shower, albeit we won't be taking "hotel showers." Also very happy with the recovery rate of this water heater. Granted, it is quite small, but it does exactly what we need it to do.
I'm in Florida. Here a lot of houses like mine have the water heater in the garage, were it's frequently hot and humid. So sounds great to me!
Also, the real down side to going tankless is the three 50 amp breakers you'll need.
Have a Rheem unit in my Orlando area garage. My summertime garage temp rarely breaks 82F - it makes it so its somewhat usable in the summertime when the unit is running.
@@phlydude One of the few benefits
@@kirkpuppy my first workplace had gas tankless for the whole building, the line that went off the gas main was almost 40mm
I own a solar business that operates in FL. We routinely add hybrid heaters when installing PV or the classic solar hot water panels. The garage cooling with an insulated garage door is amazing
We have had a Rheem 50 gallon Heat Pump Water Heater for 3.5 years in the unfinished part of the basement. Yes it does cool the room but our Geo Heat Pump is in the same room and the temp never goes below 62F in winter. The most immediate effect was a lower electric bill! It has been running without any problems and we've never run out of hot water even when my son, his wife, and two grandkids were staying.
this is the first video that i've found that actually compares heat pumps and tankless. thank you.
I had two of these HP water heaters. First one lasted almost three years before compressor died. Second one lasted about six months. Manufacturer bought out my warranty and I bought a 'regular' water heater. The HP worked great when it worked, but just didn't cut it in the long run (or short run for the second). Manufacturer's rep tried to tell me my ground water was too cold, my basement was too cold, and some other nonsense. I've had many forms of heat pump (geothermal, mini-splits, others) and am a physicist, so I know how things should work.
Yep, that compressor and its system of components are just another level of stuff to maintain and go wrong. Too much engineering and components to beat a plain vanilla gas or all electric design. Plus that condensate has to be plumbed someplace...what a cluster.
Cap
you said your a "physicist".. how does that translate exactly to hybrid water heaters? I met mathematicians who couldn't balance a checkbook.. Key is to know the engineering behind these. You said "HP" water heaters.. what brand?
Lol if you're a physicist, then you should know better than share anecdotes about your one-off experience without any actual information on the circumstances surrounding the failures and expect people to treat your comment as anything but a neat story.
Do the people here sharing their "ooga booga" ghost stories about their mysterious failing heat pumps in their unconditioned spaces also complain and share spooky tails about fridges? Because they are literally the exact same thing running in reverse.😂
Like any hvac system component, they require maintenance. Any closed loop system that relies on a compressor is subject to mechanical failure.
Natgas furnaces also need maintenance. So do air conditioners, hot tubs, garburators and automobiles.
Maybe you bought a shitty heat pump from home depot and installed it yourself? Was the space conditioned or unconditined? Was it sized correctly for the demand? What is your water like? Did you keep the filters clean? Was the system ventilated correctly? Adequately spaced away from walls as per spec? Was it from a reputable brand that stands behind their warranties? Do you have an insurance policy that covers hvac failures?
All of these things matter when talking about failures and deciding how much of a pain it is to deal with, how much is costs, and where fault lies.
Not saying you didn't have a shifty heat pump - just that is intellectually dishonest for anyone to suggest because whatever system they had failed, that the technology is therefore bad across the board.
Come talk to me about shitty forced air furnace manufacturers and their unreliable control boards. 😅
@@Garth2011
I have HVAC and I am tired of plumbing condensate, cluster f.
They need to fix that shit.
I got one of these a few years ago.. I was paying 50 dollars a month year round for propane. It dropped to 6 to 10 dollars a month. With all the gov subsides along with local power company subsidies I got the water heater for 800 dollars, and another 300 from fed tax rebate. It already paid for itself in savings. I saw no issue with running out of hot water, really that comes down to size of the tank then what heats it... If you have a large family and need more hot water then get a larger hybrid water heater tank. This technology is pretty amazing, and it makes perfect sense with how efficient it is.
Installed one of these in a storage hot hot attic place summertime use only where the temperature reaches 90 and this cools it down to 65 degrees is about 4 hours and the condensation is being driven out of the room the best solar hot water heater ever made
All the important info delivered in a common sense manner by a bloke who obviously knows his trade - kudos!
Thank you, @VinnyBologna!
100% SELF SERVING!!! LOOK UP the TERM!!!
@@NobleREMC SELF-SERVING much???? Like 100%, THAT much!!!!
For anyone living in the south and their water heater is in the garage this is an absolute no brainer, I've been using one for several years and it is always set in the heat pump mode only, never have run out hot water with a family of 3, it actually cools that side of the garage down when running and I measured the energy use and save over $35 month on my electric bill. With rebates and incentives, it pays for itself in a couple of years then you continue the massive savings after.
Which brand did you buy?
Thank you for this video!
I had plans to install an AO Smith or Rheem heat pump water heater in our insulated (not heated) garage, in an alcove space and to also frame it in as a Utility closeet, provide a full-size louver door access and insulate the framed walls; 60% of insulated walls will be inside the garage and 40% will be insulated although exterior wall space. I was also contemplating a vent for conditioned air to find its way to this smaller enclosed Utility closet, as it will abutt living space on the other side of this wall.
We live in New Hampshire, near the seacoast, so our winters tend to be 4-5 degrees warmer than the rest of the State. We can get below zero degrees, 3-4 days per year and average 1 day per year below -10 degrees. So, that's our climate. Even though our garage is insulated, it doesn't mean the temperature in the garage can get below 32 degrees. That's why I wanted to enclose and insulate this closet. My Electrician asked me why I wanted to enclose it, and I was like "why wouldn't I?" He mentioned that while the Heat Pump Water Heater will be heating the water, it will also be kicking out cold air into this small space. Does this seem problematic? He suggested the basement, as it doesn't get below freezing there. Truth be told, our existing electric hot water heater is in the basement, but this heat pump water heater was intended for a renovated apartment above our garage. Thus, because we were going to live in the apartment and rent out the larger section of the house, we thought it would be prudent to install the HPWH close to the source and thus limit the distance the water had to travel. I haven't made any purchases as of yet. I could go all-in and pull the electric hot water heater offline and run both units' hot water demands off of one Heat Pump Hot Water Heater. At this point, I'd appreciate comments especially anyone who has some colder winter months to deal with. Mamy thanks!! - Tom
This was great !! Thanks
I have a heat pump hybrid water heater for my house. You do not want one of these where you can hear it as the compressor and fan make about double the noise of my refrigerator. You also do not want it anywhere where the air can get below 40 degrees as heat pumps are not efficient at those temperatures. My hybrid water heater will automatically turn off the heat pump if the air around it is below 40 degrees and will revert to only the electric heating elements until the air temperature around it warms back up. It is ideal for any house with a solar/battery system and also for those seeking to lower their electric or fossil fuel usage. The water heater is usually the most expensive user of energy in your house other than climate (air heating/cooling) control.
I recommend that if you are replacing a non-hybrid water heater with a hybrid water heater, you should increase the tank size if you think you were ever close to running out of hot water. Heat pumps are around 4 times times slower at heating water than traditional water heaters. A traditional 50 gallon water heater can provide the tank's 50 gallons of hot water plus can heat up another 25 to 50 gallons of hot water within an hour. A 50 gallon hybrid water heater can provide the tank's 50 gallons of hot water plus can only heat up another 15 or so gallons in an hour if operating in efficiency mode. You can switch the hybrid water heater to hybrid mode to get better performance at the expense of more electric usage.
Yeah, I was worried about how loud they are. I quit using my heat pump on my house because of the noise and the cost of electricity. Natural gas is cheaper.
Wait a minute, who the hell is keeping a house a 40'F or less? Seems like a very invalid consideration. U got way bigger issues if its getting that cold, even in a basement.
@@srobeck77 garage or attic could easily get that cold in many parts of the country
@@radems well ya, duh. its why u shouldnt put it outside
@@srobeck77 Yeah duh in Florida you can put it outside
never heard of a hybrid before but i will think about it when my current gas hot water heater craps out....my uncle worked for Carrier and he installed a heat pump 40 yrs ago and it is still heating his house
in scandinavia they just prepare them for some air ducting..
mine can take air from both outside and inside.
and i can also put the waste air where i want inside if i want to cool down the house with it
Nice review ….. I will be switching my propane tank water heater to a Hybrid system ….. hopefully soon. Thanks again!
I live in Phoenix ... this would be great in my garage as it may lower the temp a bit.
Great video and information on ( Heat-Pump or Hybrid ) water heaters Brian. I have 2 of these, an 80 gallon at my house and a 65 gallon at my Son's house. I have installed many Hybrid Water Heaters and Water heaters of all types, Tanked, Tankless, Electric and gas versions. I prefer the Hybrid best because of the operating cost and hot water availability of the hot water heater as compared to the Tankless that can give a person cold periods if the waterflow is turned down or someone starts using another Hot Water outlet in the house when you are showering. I do like Gas Tankless water heaters though.
tankless are a money pit after about 6 years
Can you share any tips about selecting a system or anything you've learned about these systems? Seems like you have a bit of experience and I'd like to know what you've learned along the way if you'd be willing to share.
I wonder how well these things would work in an attic? In the part of Austin where I live, you don't get basements because you're sitting on top of limestone and they had to do blasting just to get the foundation put in. And our hot water heater isn't in the garage.
How well does this work in an IcePocalypse situation, assuming you don't lose AC power all together? I think our attic got well below freezing, and maybe even below zero, although we did lose power for several days, so that was probably a contributing factor.
Good video
Wondering if I put the heat pump version in a Garage bathroom that is insulated could I forgo piping AC into that bathroom and this unit would keep it cool? Or would it only pump out cool air as it is working? Or would the better placement be in the garage itself ?
It sounds like you may be in a warmer climate. If that’s the case, the garage would be a better place to install the unit, but you can also run a short exhaust duct into the bathroom off of the water heater to utilize the cold air that it creates. (Always check the manufacturer’s specs on duct length/capabilities.) Just know, it will only create cool air while it's heating water.
I have a Neibor that wants one …. Could be my first HP water heater install !!
G'day,
The heat pump unit.
If I were to put this outside on a concrete slab up against the house, would I need a small roof over it given it has a filter in the top of it.
Thanks for sharing ✌️
The first step is to check in with your local building code, as it will supersede any advice given here (especially since you may live in another state or country than where we're located). But as an idea, if you were to place this outside, you would need a three-walled and roofed structure to keep it safe from the elements. For more information, we did record a follow up video that may help point you in the right direction: ruclips.net/video/WMEm1voOwzs/видео.html.
What is the temperature settings for the two kinds?
Thanks for the overview. The condensate drain was a good tip. Thx! BTW, $434 vs $163 (or $183) ... still very good but video said $116. 1:12
Thanks for pointing that out, Scott! We should have pointed out that the heat pump water heater in the video is a 2017 model that we use for display purposes in our lobby. The newer models are more energy efficient, and in double-checking our numbers, we found they're actually a bit more efficient than we stated - at $113 for annual energy cost.
@@NobleREMC No worries. I've been looking at the AO Smith vs Rheem and it is hard to decide between them. Quality, long lasting, features, etc? Apparently, Rheem 5th generation had some noisy compressors (65-70 db) but supposedly have that resolved. It would be in a storage area but close to a door that opens to the rec room.
Very informative. Thank you!
One plus not often mentioned ... tankless water heaters stop when electricity goes out. After recent thunderstorm we lost power for 24 hours. The water in our Rheem 50 gallon hybrid water heater lasted the whole 24 hours (a few quick showers).
You’re an ABSOLUTE LOSER if 24 hours of no hot water is gonna BREAK YOU!!!
Is there a way to tell it to only run the heat pump if it's above a certain temp inside the house?
Otherwise you may end up heating your water via your house heater.
I guess you could manually switch it to electric only mode when the house heat needs to be on.
During the summer when it's hot that thing would be amazing here in CO. Or in places where it's hot year round, or better yet hot and humid.
Given that your house furnace is warming the utility room where the water heater goes, you're still way ahead to have a heat pump unit. All you have to do is vent the cold air coming out the heat pump into an unconditioned space, like a garage.
mine have ducting for air in and out, so with mine its pretty simpel (from Genvex or Thermex, same same)
just put a thermostat on the ducting that controls a valve..
kind of like when you distrubete heat from a wood burning stove through ducting
(100-200 dollars max)
i can also control the outlet air if i want to cool my house i just let the air in to the house insted of outside
The better models are configurable from the display, yes, but you should check each model to see if it has the type of configuration you're looking for.
More generally though, remember that the best heat pumps can extract heat from even the coldest of spaces, at well below freezing. These machines extract heat that is imperceptible to you and I.
The amount of heat it will "borrow" from any heated space is very, very small relative to the total output of your homes heating.
When properly installed, it may cool down your conditioned room where the heat pump is located by several degrees, but only if you do not pipe the exhaust air outside, which you can absolutely do.
I have a really serious question. The heat pump for hot water works better if it is hot outside. Would it not be better to put the fan thingy in the attic where it is super hot all the time ???? In a way it would be using a solar assist.
Our attic in winter can get down to single digits so if it were up there the pipes going to it might freeze.
choose a model with ducting and you wont need to carry it up the stairs..
and you can pull air or let air out in more then 1 place depending on the season/weather
the hot air should not come inside if insulated correct, and my heat recovery system removes the rest.
so it all depends on the house
my black roof if 40-60c hotter on the outside on a summerday, and my downstairs where i have my woodstove is hotter then my upstair in the wintertime
Am getting a midea chromagen for 350AU$. I'll make sure to rust proof connections. Make sure to check anode is not over tightened and to replace it often. And keep it shaded away from bad weather. Any other tips?
It sounds like you're on the right track. We're working out of a much different climate zone than I assume you are in, so I don't have any additional tips, but it sounds like you're doing what you can to weatherproof your outdoor unit.
If you live in a cooler climate it takes humidity out of the air and at the same time you are adding it with your humidifier. Sounds like you will use a lot of water and will probably need a steam humidifier to keep the house comfortable. Electric tanks also require another 220 plug, and you may need to modify your house and panel especially if you have a electric car.
Brian what is the cost of the hybred and is it a available thru Noble REMC
Hi, Rex! You can find detailed information about Noble REMC's water heater program at nobleremc.com/water-heaters. As far as pricing, at the moment, we're dealing with market fluctuations on almost a monthly basis, so it would be best to call our office directly for the current cost.
So these would be really good to install in a garage here in San Diego, especially because it gets really hot right?
You're right. That should be a good application!
U wud want to install inside, not outside. This can do some double duty to help cool your house like a small air conditioner. Its only when u have cold temps, that aiding more cool air from this is a concern.
Price is also a big difference!
Im building a two storey home, on a concrete slab so no basement, can these be installed in a closet or under a stair opening, 9 foot walls...or I have a unheated garage with winter snow temperatures...thanks
If the garage is insulated, it should work. Most operate in heat pump mode down to 37 degrees. There is a risk of it going into electric-only mode if it goes below that. (Note: With rebates and tax credits that are available, the savings could offset energy losses due to electric-only mode during extreme temperatures.) And I wouldn’t recommend in a closet or under a stair opening because of the noise and the air flow requirement, which is 750 cubic feet.
I've heard that these require a certain amount of space. My basement where we keep our water heater is fairly small and narrow, would it still make sense in such a space or will the efficiency loss start to become a bit much and I should stick with electric?
It’s recommended that the space for a heat pump water heater be at least 700 cubic feet in size to operate effectively. But without knowing what climate you live in - cold climates are more susceptible to inefficiency - it’s probably best to visit university.hotwater.com to learn what would work most efficiently for your space.
@@NobleREMC Thanks, I'll do that. My hot water tank is due for replacement next year and if I can it'd be nice to switch to a heat pump based one.
mine can take air in and let air out though ducting.z.
so the room can be same size as the heater in theory..
but it is to high for my bacement because the pumpo sits on top..
also remeber the hotter air you pull the more efficiant it is, so a basement might not be the best place to pull air from..
it depends on what options you have
i pull from my black roof in summer and from my woodstove in winter..
and i can let the air inside in the summer if i want to cool down
What about using this for radiant floor heat? We have 2000sq feet of flooring heated by propane right now. Very expensive, but could a heat pump handle?
This heat pump water heater would not be good for that application. However, they are producing air-to-water heat pumps that can handle radiant floor heat and domestic hot water needs. Research air-to-water heat pumps for radiant floor heat. If you like what you see, find a reputable dealer in your area to discuss your options.
Ratings are typically based on 60°F inlet water and I’m assuming efficiency was done at 74° / 50% humidity for the heat pump side. Any higher temperatures either ambient or inlet water temps will increase efficiency and recovery time of the heat pump.
i have a inlet right nextr to my wood burning stove in the winter, and in the summer i pull air from my black roof
it matters where you install it
I own a solar business that operates in multiple states and im a super energy geek. I have a home in FL thats all ICF construction with hybrid in the garagew/ insulated garage doors. Works amazing in there. Temps rarely reach 80* in summer and hang out around 55 in the winter. I track usage of various breakers through some tech we deploy. Hybrid consumes 30% more energy when its 50* outside vs 90*F
I also have a home 90 minutes west of denver at 9400 feet. Same all ICF construction but I located the water heater (same Rheem units on both) in the laundry/mech room.
That home uses radiant heat in insulated slab driven by a thermal solar panel with indirect heat as well as passive placement of the windows. What ive found as temp for temp (albeit much lower humidity) the heat pump uses 30% - 40% more energy than florida does.
I believe this to be due to the elevation and decreased air density. While this uses much less than a resistance element heater, I feel id be best served by a propane fired on demand unit. It can get down to negative 50*F there in winter.
I would recommend people contact the mfr of a pump they are considering anywhere above 5000’.
@@mattbrew11 humidity also factors in heat transfer as well. The total water volume in the air is much higher at higher temperature even at the same RH.
My water heater sits in the corner of the bedroom.
Cold air in the bedroom (shower before bed) sounds amazing. Need to vent outside for winter though.
I would expect the heat pump on top of the water heater to outlast the tank portion. Is there a way for the heat pump to be removed at the end of the tank's life and then retrofitted to a replacement tank? Otherwise, it would seem a waste of a perfectly good heat pump.
What locations?
How does the heat pump water heater work in a basement that gets cold 40* cold in Maine in the winter and old stone foundation basement is not well insulated but doesn’t freeze
Most manufacturers have a minimum of 45° ambient temperature for the heat pump portion of the water heater to operate. It will kick itself into element-only operation when the temps drop below that number. You will still have hot water, but it will cost more for electricity.
I live on the hot coast of South Carolina and our current hot water tank is in the attic. We have good ventilation, but as you can imagine, the attic gets hot. What is the reliability of these units ina hot attic?
An attic is a tough spot to put it because of the amount of contaminants that have the potential to get in the heat pump water heater’s air filter, which needs to be maintained and cleaned. There could also be issues with the water heater’s compressor, as it likely has a high heat limit and may get too hot and shut off.
The best option is to check the manufacturer’s website for their recommendations for locations. Beyond that, you can also check out our follow-up video that answers a few more questions about heat pump water heaters: ruclips.net/video/WMEm1voOwzs/видео.html.
Would this work with Hydronic floor heating
It would not be a good option for hydronic floor heating. However, they do make an air to water heat pump that is a good option for hydronic heating. Or, install a geothermal unit!
Is it ok to install in the attic? That’s where our water heater is currently.
It depends on the area where you live. I would refer that question to a local contractor or research your local codes for more information on what is allowed. Thanks!
I live in a part of Wyoming where winter temps can dip below zero, winter well water is icy, and interior winter conditions are very dry. I have to wonder if a HP water heater is even possible under those conditions
The state of Maine is of the biggest markets in the country for HPWHs (1 in 10 HPWHs are installed in Maine) and they work great. Cold inlet water won't be a problem (in fact you'll likely experience higher rates of savings compared to standard water heater). The factor you want to consider is whether the air temp surrounding the water heater frequently get below 40F. That's not be desirable as it wouldn't contain enough heat to pull from. Is your existing water heater in a garage in Wyoming? If its in a basement that's fine.
Why would u ever put a water heater outside in any circumstance? Wayyyyyyy inefficient even if its gas. Really bad idea
@@srobeck77 I didn't say I was putting it outside. It's actually going into a laundry/utility room that's part of the house.
@@wyominghome4857 Just needs to be above 40F most of the time, which it almost surely is. Being below grade typically maintains a level of warmth closer to 50F in winter, at least in northern New England.
@@srobeck77 Worth noting that there are split systems (See Eco2 brand, formerly Sanden) with an outdoor unit that still pull heat down to -25F. Mitsubishi is also getting into residential air to water hp space... I understand you were talking about unitary systems though.
If I install this in a utility room in a finished basement with conditioned air, Will it make that room too hot in the summertime?
No, it will actually cool the space around it slightly. This water heater needs 750 cubic feet of air to operate effectively. It takes the heat from the surrounding air, and through the refrigeration process, transfers it to the water inside the tank. It also has the potential to dehumidify the space around it.
Any idea how much this would cool a room? I'm considering installing a heat pump water heater in my unfinished basement (~700 sq feet). The basement is naturally a few degrees cooler than the rest of the house, but I don't want to cool the space at the expense of my heating bill.
That's sort of a hard question to answer without more information. In depends a lot on how much hot water you use, and the ambient air temperature in the space. They do tend to cool a space down a bit, but if you're concerned about that, the tanks are designed for having the cool air dumped outside via pipe, which you can have installed if you think it's needed.
I'd suggest though that if you do that, that you find an hvac company that can add a bypass so you can benefit from the cooler air inside your house in the warmer months.
Since it is a heat pump, wouldn't it be better to have it located in the attic where there is a lot of heat year round? Or use a split system with the heat pump located in attic?
We are located in the upper portion of Climate Zone 5. Virtually all attics in our area are vented, so it would not be appropriate to install this water heater in an attic. It may be an option to install this water heater in an attic in the lower portions of Climate Zone 4 down to Climate Zone 1. To know what's right for your home, please refer to your local codes and best practices.
One of the unit's is able to be vented so with a bypass that's temperature controlled you could bring air in to the unit when the attic temperature is up when the sun is beating down on the roof you could also vent it outside during cold months and inside when it's hot outside on a good Sunny Day even a vented attic can get quite hot up near the peak even in the cold months
Outside of the units operating range. No more than 120 degrees. The typical attic in summer is way hotter than that.
In the northeast while the attic is warm in the summer, it’s below freezing in the winter, no good unless you move it every season. Also the basements are cold in the winter as well. If you vent outside then your bringing in outside air as well so you have to warm the air that is being used . The extra heat needed must also be calculated into the cost of operation. I’ll stick with our boiler
@@yourmomma3132 totally depends on the state. a well vented attic in northern states wont get much above 100'F, but than again we have entire basements to put these in, so sort of a moot point.
Can I put this in my attic?
We created a follow-up video that may best answer your question! View it here, and hopefully it gives you the information you're looking for: ruclips.net/video/WMEm1voOwzs/видео.html
Where is the anode on the heat pump one?
@ 01:25 you reference a "mini-split" water heater... Care to post a video about it?
While we won't be able to post a video about it, here's one that does a really good job of explaining exactly what it is: buildshownetwork.com/blogs/The_Most_Efficient_Water_Heater_on_the_Market
I reckon the split is a better alternative. Especially in a warm climate where the split is usually outside. In fact out tank is outside as well now I think about it.
Will this work at replacing an oil furnace that uses hot water baseboard heating?
Unfortunately, it will not.
Totally different application. And also u cant mix potable water with water used for heating.
You failed to mention the standby loss, how many degrees a hour? Many jurisdictions are calling for maintaining 140 degrees in the tank to kill cryptosporidium and then tempering with a mixing valve. Can these units reach 140 without the resistance elements?
yes.
@@davidpollock2245 That is interesting, I just returned from the AHR show in Atlanta and talked to every air to water heat pump manufacturer, most said 120 max and a few said 130 at a very low COP. Could you tell me the units specifically you are talking about so I can look up their performance charts. This could be a major breakthrough for using heat pumps on higher temp hydronic systems. Thank you
Also the units that could reach 130 were using vapor injection compressors. Are these water heaters also using vapor injection compressors?
@@anthonyspadafora1384 Sanden Sanco2 goes up to 149.
@@davidpollock2245 Thanks I will check it out
"What that boils down to is"... i see what you did there
what type of refrigerate does it take?
It uses R-134a.
storage?? how much less water does heat pump have..looks much smaller than electric...would it work well for family of 6 or more suited for family
of2 or3
They are available in all the same capacities as a gas or electric hot water tank. The total height on most models is higher.
I like the tax credits right now but my electric is only six years old. Would it still be beneficial cost savings to remove a six year old electric you think?
Okay, you mentioned the mini-split type water heaters, but even after googling every way I can think of, the only heat pump water heaters I can find at all are the hybrid ones like he showed in the video. Can anyone point me to a US seller of those mini-split type ones?
This is the first one we found and a good place to start, but there are multiple manufacturers: www.smallplanetsupply.com/sanc02
I would like to see a Mobil home design unit . perhaps a sound resistant closet with cold air discharge near refrigerator /freezer/cloths dryer. Away from living or bed rooms .
Why is the fan making a loud noise every time it turns on? On the hybrid version that is
There will always be some noise coming from a fan, but if it’s unreasonably loud, you may want to call a contractor to check it out.
I'd expect that the compressor is making most of the noise. A similar sized compressor on a refrigerator has a lot of sound suppressing insulation because it's designed for use in a living space. The HPHW doesn't because it isn't.
Why would you not simply install duct to vent outside with diverter valveto switch outside during winter . And summer inside for free a/c
You can absolutely do this and should do it if your weather and operating conditions warrant it.
What's the noise decibel of that unit..?
After doing a little digging, it seems the consensus is about 51 decibels.
@@NobleREMC Thank you...!
Since it has heating elements, I assume it is wired to 220?
Correct!
3.5 - 4.00 KW is a big power consumption element 😮😮
So what's the economy of this unit look like in a cold climate home? Since it's essentially taking heat energy out of the air, and I'm paying a gas bill to put that heat energy into the air for about 9 months out of 12, it doesn't seem like it would be very efficient?
I installed a 80gallon Rheem in a home in the Colorado mountains. It pulls air from the outside and also exhausts outside.
It doesn't work below 40F and the electric element kicks on. I wouldn't switch if you have a gas tank. I switched because it was a 30 year old electric tank so I saw a large cost savings over the whole year if you average it out.
@@hijinks21 sounds like a old model.
mine works down to something like -20c and it still makes sense compared to electric heating
where i live they do make sense even with cold weather, we also use heat pumps here in scandinavia
same same
if it is used for heating at the same time get a heat pump, these are not 100kw
I had on of these installed with my solar system, heat pump failed after 3 years 5 months will costs $4300 replacement plus cost of plumber. So not cheap!
Holy shit. I got super lucky and bought one with a state energy rebate for $550. I didn't know they were THAT expensive.
Getting ready to install it. I'm pretty handy so I should be able to fix it if anything but the tank or heat exchanger fails.
Best of luck.
Hey Peter, how did this perform attached to your solar system? I'm building a 25kwh system and want a better sense for how efficient these are? Any idea how much power this unit consumed per day and how many people there are in your family who are drawing water?
Ours has already paid for itself in energy savings, one of the best investments for our home we've made. Works wonders in Austin Texas.
One must bear in mind in hard water areas all water heaters don't last much longer than 8 to 10 years, flushing does not remove very much lime or prolong tank life. So factor this into the capital cost of these units.
I live in a hard water area. My current AO Smith is 21 years old and works fine. Has never been flushed and has never had the anode replaced.
@@Encourageable I assume you must have the one with the longest Warranty package which does have better corrosion resistance or that you have a good water softener set correctly. Also I often found the older models of water heaters far more durable than the newer versions. Some were over 30 years old and still working.
I have a heat pump water heater: it's a 6000 btu a.c., mounted in basement, with a copper aluminum heat exchanger on the condenser, 120 degree outlet temperature. Goes to a 40 preheated hw tank: 120 degree water. House is cooled, water is heated [warm days only]. Anything to beat the utility company.
Ed c
So has anybody ran the numbers on what it cost to heat the cool air it produces? So wouldnt that decrease the efficiency during winter months that your house heater has to produce to offset the cool air it produces?
I'm not sure if the energy star ratings factor this in, however the cool down of a conditioned space can be minimized to some degree by dumping the cool air exhaust outdoors vis a pipe, which these tanks can be configured readily for.
Overall, you should have your hvac and water systems isolated in some type of furnace room if it resides in a conditioned space. Typically you'd see a cool down of several degrees with normal usage, but that hugely depends on if you vent it, the size of tank, and how much hot water you use.
The relative humidity of the conditioned spaces air also matters, as humid air tends to be much more comfortable, even if several degrees colder than drier air.
More generally, use of a properly sized heat pump water heater, when installed in an appropriate space, isn't going to make a substantial difference to your heating costs, especially when you consider the overall heat output of your total system.
It gets down below freezing here so I switch this one to electric only mode during the winter. There’s no heat in the garage air to pump into the water, which effectively cools the water it’s trying to heat. Otherwise this is bonkers awesome.
Hence in a cold climate these things are useless.
Keep in mind that 32* F is over 270* K, so air that is "freezing" still contains an enormous amount of heat.
@@michaelmaas6460 okay, but I was still getting only five minutes of hot water in 38°F weather. Switching it to all electric in the winter now gives me 45 plus minutes of family showers.
@@mrofnocnon well, not ‘useless’, it works great after accessing the secret menu to keep it full electric in the winter. It’s wonderful and reliable.
@@michaelmaas6460 Yes you can see it that way but in practical terms the less heat there is to draw from the lower the efficiency rate.
So... in the event that you should happen to get peak efficiency out of the hybrid, you'll save, based on energuide's average estimate on power rates, about $200 a year.
...so it MIGHT give you a break-even payback on the additional upfront cost over the life of the tank... If you have an installation scenario that doesn't require any additional prep work.
If you have the tank in an enclosed location, then you need a ducted air kit... plus the increased cost to heat the room that the heater is in is not taken into account... unless the energy source for space heating is as efficient or more than the water heater, then that's just silly.
And you're integrating a complex refrigeration system to a tank that will create a whole lot of waste when it has to be discarded well before it fails because the tank sprung a leak in 10 years.
i have pretty much no bill i also have solar heating panels connected to it, so it gives free heat 1/2 of the year
and it makes its own heat in that time
you can just pull air from hot places like a black roof or a wood burning stove and those numbers become alot better
a normal water heater cost the same so what savings ????
the ducting helps you get cold air when you want if you want
and it helps save money by have more then place to take in hot air depending on the seaseon/weather
heat a room ????? what room what is the ducting for 🤣
the energy prices was up to 6 times higer then normal last year so 200 becomes alot more in those cases..
@t hansen again, the cost of running a standard electric tank, factoring in the cost of purchasing and installing the tank, when compared to the savings offered by a hybrid heater versus the cost of it, particularly if additional ducting and provisions for condensate drainage is required, is break-even at best.
*IF* you live in an area where heating your home is not a major concern, and *IF* you have a space that has excess heat that can be utilized by the hybrid heater, then great. But I'm now being stuck with a bunch of uneducated customers who want them because the government is offering absurd rebates for them, when there's no feasible way to benefit from them in their homes. The heater gets installed in a space that has to have supplemental heat reintroduced to it to prevent pipes from freezing, and that heat is generated from an energy source that costs more than just heating the tank up directly with resistance elements. Outside air is a no-go, the units don't have a defrost circuit. I could just duct the cold discharge air outside, but then I'm pulling fresh air in from outside to replace it. Again, it has to be heated.
Above that, there are considerably more components working in the heater to than a standard electric model. The tank won't last any longer than a regular one, so what would normally amount to an easily recyclable piece of scrap metal in a decade, is now essentially a piece of scrap metal with a whole bunch of unrecyclable crap attached to it, electronic components, and a few pounds of refrigerant that has to be recovered.
The benefit of a hybrid heater vs a straight electric heater, in any climate where it doesn't need to do double duty as an air conditioner, is negligible at best, and in warmer climates, it's frustrating to see a component that could easily exist independently of a steel tank, that will almost certainly outlast the steel tank by a considerable amount of time, integrated into that tank in such a way that it has to be thrown away well before the end of its life simply because the tank leaks.
These heaters are the bane of my existence. I don't like installing them, I don't like repairing them, I don't like having to deal with the regrets of the customers who foolishly bought them.
Lol @ "complex refrigeration system"
We need to watch out for those complex household fridges too. They are stealing all the nice cool kitchen air in the summer! 😂
The ducted air kit isn't required in a conditioned space unless you a) are operating in an enclosed space that is smaller than required or b) you don't want to vent cold air into the space, or use indoor input air.
The amount of heat extracted from the conditioned space borders on irrelevant when you consider the total output of your hvac system. How much how water you use, and how your system is sized will all play a factor, but I'd generally say it's "inconsequential" in all but the most extreme use cases.
It will tend to lower the temperature in the space by 1 or 2 degrees, particularily when unvented. This may be obvious, or may be imperceptible depending on preference, drafts, and the relative humidity as more humid spaces tend to feel warmer than the same temperature at lower humidity.
@user-jy6vd3uw1m my experience in having installed, repaired, serviced, and removed more than a few over the years tells me... you're wrong. Sorry. Unless you're in a market where there's enough free excess heat to run it, or if you need extra dehumidification, you're wasting your time installing one.
@@jasongreek2342 At the risk of sounding rude, your comment is entirely anecdotal. It doesn't make any sense to make sweeping generalizations about an entire technology based on just your experiences; particularily when you've said nothing in the way of addressing any of the technical factors that tell you if a heat pump is suitable.
Heat pumps and their adjacent technologies have been used in the commercial and residential sectors outside of North America for decades very successfully.
Should everyone use it? No, of course not.
Presumably you'd never suggest every single person, universally, use natgas or heating oil system either... because it would be terrible advice.
At the end of the day are Heat pump electric worth it
You can see he really wanted to do this.
These are wonderful to install in a Southern home's garage. Otherwise, as mentioned in other responses, they just steal the heat from the home. No net benefit during heating season.
Not sure where you're getting your information from. The heat pump hot water heater needs to be spec'd for the climate zone you're in, and running these systems in unconditioned spaces with large temperature swings will be harder....but then the question is why would you run this in an unconditioned space outside of climate zones 2-4?
Picked up a Rheem 65 gallon from Home Depot in December. So far we are seeing an average savings of 10kw per day. Installed myself. Not hard, just time consuming.
Sorry to tell you but rheem heaters are garbage.
Should’ve went Bradford White.
@@borntwice4724 How are they garbage?
Where you located?
@@fredbigapple San Diego
@@fredbigapple Southern Arizona
Have to clean the filter regularly , noisy , will not work well in a cold and dusty environment ,holds less water than the same size of conventional unit.
Lol where the hell are you installing this thing? The back of a garbage truck?
Do you run your fridge outside too? 😂
Sooooo What do you all have in your homes?
Likely three standard water heaters equal the price of a single heat pump water heater. My guess is the long term benefits are not of any value due to the high initial purchase and install cost vs. an all electric or natural gas water heater.
That's a pretty broad statement. There are a lot of factors at play here such as energy costs, seasonality changes (energy prices, temperature), who your hvac professional is (are they a crook or are you get a fair markup?) And whether your state or province has any home efficiency retrofit grants or rebates.
I can tell you that where I live, my payback period on a high end 60 gallon system is 5 years. But that is going to be different from place to place.
As with any large expense, like an hvac system, water system, etc. if you don't have or know how to obtain the pertinent details, you should consult a licensed bonded professional trade to get the facts before you make a big purchase.
@@user-jy6vd3uw1m All true, too many folks do not do enough research and investigations on equipment, types of equip, design etc. Its all going to be part of the outcome as will the price of gas, oil, LPG etc. I have read much about gas therms vs electric kWh and the BTU's produced and the winner has always been gas or propane. Many sources suggest that gas has about 3 times more BTU's than the same quantity of electric, in general. I'm sure there are methods that make electric more efficient however, most people are going to opt for the source that is cheapest and so far, unless politics/greed gets into the natural gas markets, is natural gas. In the USA, natural gas is a byproduct of oil and the quantity of gas is enormous, we have lots of it here. Problem is, politics sometimes forces gas to be imported and the price goes up.
hp cost vs standard unit?????????? if an elect 50 gal costs $300 vs $3,000?
Or you can purchase the iStore 270L, which is made in the same factory, is the same model fundamentally and is cheaper and has a better warranty.
Is that only in Australia?
So that's no good if you're using that space as an Airing Cupboard like we do in the UK.
How can anything run at more than 100%?
This is a very common and understandable question. The efficiency ration and its underlying calculation is different from what most people are thinking of. It trips up a lot of people.
If you google how the energy star efficiency rating and calculation works, you should find the answer.
Only way I would purchase a hybrid water heater is if it came with a 10 year free replacement warranty. Too expensive for a short life.
To be called a heat pump, the unit should have a reversing valve part, which it doesn't have.
This is so insanely pedantic. Buddy you are hilarious! You're technically right, which is the best kind of right.
Mine is natural gas and uses $146 per year
welcome to the chat mr putin
@@Hansen710 Putin is taking out the illegal bio labs, nato bases, trafficking in the obama/cia 2014 nonstate that is Ukraine. the good news it is also ending nato and fragmenting the eu.
I would just get a larger 60 or 80 gallon tank that is heat pump only. No need for hybrid.
Electric tankless is the only way to go. I put one of my house greatest thing I ever did.
It can’t be louder than my Samsung fridge!!! :)
Yep reckon it will be ..I live next to one
2 x 17 minute showers ? many tend to have 4-5 minute showers in Australia unless it is children who do not know any better about water conservation, driest continent & all, good video
That explains the smell.
@@waytospergtherebro you need to be severely handicaped not to be able to have a full shower in 3 to 4 minutes.
Maybe it's a U.S. thing because so many of you are obese.
Seems like an idiotic benchmark, who tf spends nearly 20 minutes in the shower, seriously...
How long would someone spend on the toilet, 1 hour?! Lmao
@@waytospergtherebro up yours stinky
If you have to descale your tankless twice a year you have some water problems that should be addressed. Good plug though.
Interesting
Any email address ?
They don't cool that much and if you are in a northern climate you can switch it to use the elements in winter or a combo of both. I am in Florida and mine is in garage so I only run it on heat pump mode.
Hot water heaters usually write out need to be replaced in 5 to 8 years depending on water conditions. I could change it $480 water heater every 5 to 8 years or I could change a $4000 water heater every 5 to 8 years. Hmmmm 🤔 I’m not sure which one makes sense. ?
Lol 😂
I hear that showering with cold water is good for one's health. Save water shower with your steady. Don't modern dishwashers and clothes washers generate their own high water temps.? These heat pump water heaters have been around for a long time...30 years or so. They are expensive in first cost and don't fit in most older homes and even in some newer abodes. Space could be a concern, electrical needs, condensate disposal, noise, heat generation, maintenance. Anyway I the vid is informative and helpful.
they cost pretty much the same as a electrical water heater, it doesent get much cheaper..
fits fine in my old home..
it needs a place to stand thats how much room it takes..
with ducting on they should not make more noise then a freezer ..
it generates cold as a waste, not heat.. (but with ducting no problem, you can send it where you want it)
same maintenace as with other heaters, actually less then with gas..
A tankless on demand makes more sense then storing gallons of hot water. Your not creating more energy by moving it place to place. The gas electric water heaters just seem like more electric usage. Which is more energy to use electric to heat with even with heat pumps. And look at what it takes for the electric too. It really just seems like more middle men to make things more expensive. Really think a water heater/boiler comb is the way to go if running a pump. The pumping hot water works better than forced hot air to heat with. Plus not forcing heat out. Now if we could make a water heater/boiler/cloths drier/stove/oven. Sounds crazy but actually do able. That's where heat pumps and heat storage would shine.
One an 80 and one’s a 50
Why is your stuff looking like it’s from the sixties?
Check out Mitsubishi Electrics heatpumps…..
It’s 100% CERTAIN that a GAS (or propane) TANKLESS will ALWAYS be cheaper in the long run.
Owing to the fact this is clearly a troll, I won't respond but I will say generally:
You should consult a qualified, bonded hvac and plumbing professional with experience in heat pump and other related systems if you're unsure.
Do not make decisions about multi-thousand dollar pieces of home ventilation and water systems entirely based on information from weird people on the internet.
Heat pump systems have been used in the commercial sector, and in residential for many many decades and have a proven track record.
@@user-jy6vd3uw1m EVERYTHING has a “PROVEN TRACK RECORD.” EVEN ENRON!!!! What’s ALSO PROVEN is that TANKLESS is WAAAAY cheaper in the LONG RUN!!!!!!
@@traybern why are you talking in all caps, do you have brain damage or something?
and where does the hp unit get its heat from? From the air around it.... and who heats that air and pays for that