I can believe it .. producers , if given control do it all the time Ezrin does it ,he tossed Alice Cooper's band to use session players , he brought in the same people to play on Destroyer .
Ace and Peter burned out 10 years into Kiss because of Drugs and Booze and couldn't cut it anymore. Ace and Peter struggle to keep up with Gene and Paul who have kept Kiss alive while Ace and Peter did nothing. Quit making excuse for Ace who falls off the stage even while sober and Peter who can't keep proper standards and loses his temper when people call him on it.
I'm a producer. He could say that. But considering that 2nd party is Kiss, it would be their decision. If the 2 guys wanted, the other 2 would have recorded
@@ravenstrange8466 Imagine doing the mental gymnastics to write a paragraph of such complete bullshit. We should check your backside to see if Paul and Gene are working you like a puppet. KISS was in financial trouble and playing hotel convention spaces before Ace and Peter rejoined. They were no longer culturally relevant. Ace and Peter gave them the biggest tour on the planet. Gene was barely contributing to the records throughout the 80's. This started with Dynasty. Ace falls off the stage? Nice lie. Peter gets mad when Paul and Gene try to rip him off and treat him like a second class citizen. He isn't like Eric and Tommy who who ripped off what other people have created. They bow when they are in the presence of their masters. Enjoy your lip sync band. KISS was only ever on top with Ace and Peter.
I'm a big fan of the original lineup. But, one thing is for sure, if Tommy would have turned down the chance to be a millionare, some other guy would have taken it.
I agree Tommy was in a tight spot. A rock in a hard place if you will, damned if you do damned if you don't. I think he saw an opportunity and took it. You can't fault the guy he was a hired gun who made the most of his opportunity. I think Tommy really wanted to make 1 or 2 more albums with KISS to add something to the legacy. Was he a better guitar player than ACE no, but from his position he goes out every night to play the songs to the best of his ability without being drunk or screwed up. Professional at all times ready to play something that Paul and Gene needed. It would be hard for any player with an ego to get along with those two. I think his MO would be to be quiet come out and kickass at every show and the rest will take care of itself. It's easy to criticize when 99% of the guitar players would have jumped at that opportunity if they were being honest with themselves.
This album is fair at best. You can tell by the drum fills and guitar riffs that it's not Ace and Peter. It doesn't sound like a classic KISS rock record
@@BaronVonBielski yeah...gene and Paul aren't dummies...a band needs a member or two who are the true founders and who can call it like it is...if Gene and Paul conclude Peter and ace can't play certain songs then I trust them...ask any guitarist if they can play anything off the cuff and they will say no way....no musician knows everything
@Nebby Scumbold - progressively worse? Not necessarily. Problem is the songs are new therefore some fans can't accept them. Psycho Circus is an awesome song irregardless of what you or other narrow-minded fans claim. Same with Modern Day Delilah and Hell Or Hallelujah. Newer high quality songs are ignored because they don't have the history. I don't listen to songs looking for history or caring who sings or plays on it. A great song is still a great song no matter what
The lies that Kiss and the record company have foisted on the fans is unconscionable. They fought for respect their whole career and once they got it they spit on the very people who gave it to them. Tragic.
Ace and Peter burned out 10 years into Kiss because of Drugs and Booze and couldn't cut it anymore. Ace and Peter struggle to keep up with Gene and Paul who have kept Kiss alive while Ace and Peter did nothing. Quit making excuse for Ace who falls off the stage even while sober and Peter who can't keep proper standards and loses his temper when people call him on it.
@@ravenstrange8466 What does this have to do with Paul and Gene being terrible people? Ace is a drunk therefore Paul Stanley can be an awful human being?
No it's not the music industry, it's the band industry. Aerosmith - Toys in the attic. In the fine print it says that Tom Hamilton plays guitar on two or three tracks. It lists what songs Brad Whitford played lead on. We as fans understand that the studio allows certain freedoms. All we ask is truth and honesty.
I was a huge huge KISS fan back in the 70's and early 80's. I believed all the hype and that it really was those guys playing every note on every album. I bought Psycho Circus thinking I was getting what it was presented to be, but now know of course it's just another instance where they told you what they wanted you to think so you'd spend money on the album. Sadly the same is true of many their other albums. These days, we all know better and know we shouldn't believe much of anything stated as fact by them. Now, I just listen to the music and appreciate it for what it is without buying into all the baloney.
I always thought it was bullshit that they tried to convince everybody it was KISS. They knew people would buy the album thinking Ace and Peter were on it.
@@natecannon6746 It isnt the first time KISS has been disingenuous about things. They marketed that album to the public like it was the first album in years to feature all four original members playing on it. Paul and Gene did not want to include them because they wanted their puppet Tommy and whoever else to be in the studio so they could call all the shots abd not have to deal with Ace and Peter who both would have wanted at least a bit of input. But they wanted the fans to think it was the original four members creating an album together for the first time since the 70s. In fact, I almost got sucked in by it and was considering at least listening to it just for that reason alone. I am glad I did not. I was a huge KISS fan for many years and had every album up until Crazy Nights. As I became older and developed better taste in music I became less and less of a fan, although I remained a big fan of ACE and followed his solo career, buying albums like Frehley's Comet, LIVE +1 etc. Now I am 50 years old and the only KISS albums I own are the first three as well as ALIVE ! I also own most of ACE'S solo albums dating back to his 78 solo release. Why am I ranting on like this ? Just because Im trying to show how people's taste in music and attitudes towards bands and musicians can change over time. Plus, I am bored and cannot sleep.
@@JohnnyMegabyteCanada what about them ? Peter didnt play on any of them. Although he did contribute Dirty Livin to Dynasty. By that time they had sessíon drummers coming in.
They didn't lie, Ace and Peter burned out 10 years into Kiss because of Drugs and Booze and couldn't cut it anymore. Ace and Peter struggle to keep up with Gene and Paul who have kept Kiss alive while Ace and Peter did nothing. Quit making excuse for Ace who falls off the stage even while sober and Peter who can't keep proper standards and loses his temper when people call him on it.
@@somewhatsomething4882 That’s just being sour because Ace didn’t play that solo. In the old days Ace was innovative. Nowadays he sucks. He never improved.
Psycho Circus, within , into the void , dreaming and journey of a 1000 years are the best the album had to offer . Songs like we are one and I finally found my way are just them trying to hard.
Absolutely makes no sense. You mean Peter and Ace can play live but are not able to play their chops when it comes to recording? BS. They just didn't want to bother with them and the royalties.
Tommy Thayer filled in on the farewell tour without anyone knowing it because Ace wasn't up to doing the shows. As for saying Thayer did the album for money, it's kinda hard to cash in on work that you're not credited for.
What show did Mr. Thayer actually play in while Ace Frehley was still in the band. One time Ace was late and when he arrived, Mr. Thayer was dressed as Ace and ready to go, but Ace played that show. There was a show where a drum tech dressed up as Peter and played, but that is a different story.
@@Bad_Wolf_Media Ace was ready and able to play on the Farewell Tour. He was touring himself the entire time anyway. Paul wouldn't pay Ace the money he deserved to do it
Of course they blame it on the dead producer. Yeah right, Bruce insisted and Gene and Paul lost that fight. We’re not that stupid you know, even though you treat us as stupid
So Ace was good enough to play on Into the Void and You Wanted but not for the other stuff. What rubbish. Are the other songs all super complicated, highly intricate rock masterpieces that were somehow beyond anyone but Gene, Paul, and some hired guns? From what I hear on Into the Void, both Ace and Peter could have easily played the rest of the album if they were allowed to. Also, I saw Ace on his final stint with Kiss in Australia (with Singer on drums). They played around 25 songs, including some non-makeup stuff, he sang Talk to Me and Shock Me, and he was great.
Great point indeed. I think some folks have been spoon fed Kiss press releases for so many years, that just can't hear stuff like this even when presented to them directly. They will just start parroting the same garbage that Simmons and Stanley have been repeating in fanzine interviews for eons. (Imitates zombies) "But Ace was useless and drunk....and Tommy shows up....and Ace never did......blah..blah...blah.....". LOL
Let's see,I think Gene and Paul were always jealous of Ace and Peter because look at the Hard Rock and Metal acts from the 80s and 99s that followed KISS from Motley Crue and Anthrax to Poison and Guns N Roses to Metallica to Pantera all these bands who had members that sighted Ace Frehley and Peter Criss as influences Tommy Lee Scott Ian Ce Ce DeVille Kirk Hammett Slash Steven Adler Dimebag Darrell Vinnie Paul and the list goes on of musicians who idolized Ace Frehley and Peter Criss,now if that is not a testament I don't know what is.
Playing live is very different from playing in the studio. In the studio you have to play multiple takes and some people just can't do that. And remember Vini Poncia did the same thing with Peter in 1979. Your lack of knowledge doesn't mean it didn't happen. Go do some research
@@brianstrutter1501 Have you ever recorded in a studio ? 4:35 4:35 . You seem to think you're some sort of expert on all things . Wannabe ... Just like Tommy
I will never understand why so-called professional musicians struggle so hard to learn and play other people's songs. I've been a musician since 1990. When I am given a new song to learn, it takes me two days (one to learn, one to fix it in the memory) and that's it. Why someone has to have a higher level of concentration to play a different song, to the point it can be noticed, is beyond me.
Many people have only focused on their own style and haven't learned many different styles, genre's, style. Ace played his own way for so long that is basically all he does. Tommy by nature didn't play exactly like Ace. Learning every little nuance takes time. yeah anybody can get up and jam the song after a couple hours but to try to get every little bend, trill, etc that may not be within your own style can be weird. Other people, many who play in cover bands are the opposite. They may not have their "own style sound" but can copy other people's stuff very easily
@@r613-v7y Thanks for answering, Rob. Actually I was referring to what Tommy said about Peter, and how he played "Psycho Circus". Yeah, I agree it takes some time if you wanna play a carbon copy of the song, but unless you have a music sheet to read, almost no one plays the same thing twice, not even the original musicians who recorded a song. Maybe it's more a metal thing, a genre where I agree the bands tend to replicate more exactly what was played on the record. Even so, playing is all these guys do. I hope they don't expect us to believe they don't have time to practice new songs, at least to the point where is no longer noticeable that you are more focused and more tense, just because it's someone else's song.
As I mentioned in another comment.... It takes time to get used to playing a song that you didn't record and had never heard. Peter didn't play on the album and so hadn't rehearsed the songs from it. He may not have even heard the new songs until right before the tour started. And playing new songs live in front of 20,000 people is a little different than learning them for your personal enjoyment.
@@garyhill2740 Hi, Gary, thanks for answering. The learning process is the same, regardless of the size of your audience. A song doesn't become more difficult because you will play in a larger venue. I personally never played in front of 20,000 people, but I had large audiences too, measured in thousands. I would be nervous only if I hadn't practiced. It's their job, it's my job. We (musicians) have no excuse to be bad at it.
@@Igor_Vinicius I do feel what you're saying. I'm not a pro musician, or even a good amateur one, so you know more about that than I do. I have done some acting and broadcasting, and I know that performing a piece that you have had time to rehearse, and know well, is much easier than being thrown into performing something live that you just glanced over the night before. If that wasn't the case, no one would rehearse. That is my point. The band members that play on a recording have pre-recording rehearsals, multiple recording takes. Before commencing live shows, there are usually concert rehearsals before the tour. It wasn't that they were "struggling to play other people's songs". Ace does awesome covers of other people's songs all the time. Not playing on the recordings for the Psycho Circus album, probably not even knowing what songs were selected until after the fact.....Peter and Ace had much less opportunity to learn and become comfortable with the new material than Gene and Paul, before they played on the Psycho Circus tour. That's not an excuse, it's just common sense. I don't care how professional you are, you're going to sound shakier if someone throws you in live without a net to play new stuff you've barely had time to learn. (Unless you're Eddie Van Halen, or Steve Vai, or Joe Satriani) That doesn't make me think less of Ace or Peter at all, and I don't think in that context their performance at the time warrants undue criticism. Just my take.
I mean you still can’t call it a “reunion album” if the original lineup is only playing on one song. If things were really that bad back then why make an album at all?
I don’t think it was a bad or great album , it was kind of just thrown out there. Really don’t know what to make out of it but it’s not one of those albums I will pull out every once in a while. It just kind of gathers dust.
Here's a cool idea... Watch the video and turn off the sound and read this while the video rolls.... ready? :::: (Tommy Thayer Speaking) .....I remember as a kid playing guitar and visiting music stores and seeing all these GREAT Guitars on the walls that I could not afford... Many years later as I was bringing Peter Criss from the band KISS Pizza and Water and making sure the guys had what they needed for the show.... I fell in Love with the Les Pauls that ACE Played, and he really was a total pro and a nice guy and I kept telling myself... man... he has the best gig ever. Great Guitars... Great Band... Man I really want that. So I sucked on Paul and Genes testicles and finally got a job...and now my VERY OWN Epiphone!!! YES... I Play it LIVE to all the backing tracks, and I LOVE the fact that I can inspire other fakers out there that really can't play that great...but I stay sober and do what the Bosses (Paul and Gene) Say... and Yes I do donate to charities... But just the One's that Gene and Paul give me a thumbs up to, you know.,, when I am off the tour and can do a little of what I want to when they are not bossing me around. But YES, Thanks to GIBSON for allowing my name on a guitar that might inspire some young person to pick one up and also learn solos from Kiss Albums that I had absolutely nothing to do with. I am glad to have this LEGACY.... Thank You All!!! (especially Gene and Paul... because they gave the OKAY on this)....
I know it’s been rumoured quote recently actualy that ace played on more songs on psycho circus then was previously stated in the past now weather that’s true or not I don’t know having listed to the album recently I’m picking up aces playing on quite a few of the songs be it lead or rythem guitar
Thats my last buyed Cd on Kiss, and i am so happy about it, before i hear IT!, and in the Meantime we know why... there's no Ace and Peter on it, ecept 2 Tracks! Paul and Gene take all the Parts of them away. Like in the past. Tommy Thayer couldn''t say another thing because Hes an contract Musician ! He's an very talented Guitar Player, but he will never be an Ace Frehley, ( btw: did he ever was drunk or else ? ) and the more he imitates him, the more he stinks. He should be Tommy Thayer himself and he would be great. This Album was a great chance for the 4, but for G+P its only 4+shift = $
Well, none of the people who stood in for Ace and Peter on their '70s albums were ever credited. I heard Paul doesn't even want Gene playing on his ballads (don't know why) so Gene doesn't, except for "Forever," and so Paul is the only Kiss member playing on "Shandi" (Gene does backup vocals) but the other players are uncredited. The difference is that from the '90s to now, we Kiss fans have heard all the stories by now from fanzines, the internet, etc., about stuff like Anton Fig, etc., a million times, EXCEPT for everything surrounding Psycho Circus. Who did and didn't play on that album and why remains mostly a mystery, although I have heard Kevin Valentine's name thrown around. Tommy's story here is probably as good as what the four original members' stories would be, because Bruce Fairbairn has passed away, so he can't be interviewed regarding his choices.
When the fans have been through the DESTROYER ERA when KISS actually we're one of the best in the world PSYCHO CIRCUS seems like an insult on a platter. Sorry to be so harsh but I'm sure I'm not alone.
He didn't get credit because the album was a complete ruse on the fans, only song on that album that all 4 original members played on was "Into the Void", Peter almost walked before they even released the album because he was so against lying to the fans, but once again you put Paul and Gene in control and that's what you get.
I think it was a great album. At a time when ace couldn’t play to his full potential I think tommy did absolutely brilliantly. I reckon if ace could play then like he can now, tommy wouldn’t be on that album.
The biggest problem is not Tommy And Eric as musicians and persons. It is the fact that they use the Peter and Ace makeup and also move around like them.I am one of those who does not like that. If they had their own makup I would not be frustraited.
@@AndyMagnusson70 I understand that. My point is that if someone had a once in a lifetime chance to spend time in a world famous rock band and make a fortune, they also would put that make up on in a heartbeat, regardless how much they criticize someone else for doing it.
@@AndyMagnusson70 ..... it bothers me also, but Ace and Peter sold the makeup rights. For me, they didn’t want the rights so if someone else wears it, It’s a business decision. But it is weird
When Peter and Ace were both finally gone in the early 80s, P and G had to have decided not to allow anyone else on the top of the mountain with them. Hired guns only, including Peter and Ace during the reunion tours. That way, they'd be covered either way, always making the other guys contractually obligated to do their jobs but without ever having to relinquish control. Deceiving the fans didn't matter b/c it was all part of the masquerade of rock and roll, and kept the business men (P & G) in business, which was (and is) far and away the most important thing.
@@ryanfulldark2775 I'm a huge KISS fan, but KISS took a huge nose dive when Ace and Peter left. They were playing in clubs for the revenge tour. They then bring back Ace and Peter and have the biggest tour in the music industry for 2 or 3 years. There's a reason Gene and Paul have Tommy and Eric dress up like Peter and Ace. Last 2 albums sucked. Kiss is just a tribute band tour off the success Ace and Peter helped build. KISS is basically nothing without Peter and Ace.
@@raulrodriguez9892 Paul. , It is simple. , Write a list of all the things that Tommy has brought to KISS . Then write a list of all the things that ACE FREHLEY has brought to KISS, including his makeup and the logo . I guarantee you don't put the two lists on the net so everybody can see because when you see the lists , you will realise your making a complete fool of yourself
If Ace was playing somewhere and Thayer’s old band were playing venues across the street from each other, I can guarantee you who would have more of an audience, you all know the answer!
@@sjs1555 because he has no solo career unless you consider Black and Blue, which wouldn’t stand up to Aces solo career. I’d still go see Ace before I saw Kiss lite.
@@sjs1555 mam you Thayer heads are unbelievable. That’s like saying John Bonham is a fat alcoholic and Jason is the best drummer of all time. Ace blows Thayer out the window. All Thayer does is copy the songs and licks Ace wrote. Good for him but give me a fucking break
@@sjs1555 listen moron All I’m saying is give the man respect for what he did in the 70s, at least when he performs its real vocals and music and not lip syncing. I actually don’t have an issue with Thayer, I would do the same if given the opportunity, but give credit where it’s due
I honestly don't know why KISS didn't want Peter and Ace playing on this album. Fans were excited the two guys were back in the band, personally I thought the album sounded exactly like the non make up era. Both Peter and Ace give KISS a distinct sound. Also Gene and Paul constantly say they do it for the fans, fans are the boss. Stories like this and Rock n Roll Hall of fame where they refused to play with Ace and Peter, I find that complete B.S. I lost a lot of respect for them because of the rock n roll hall of fame.
I don’t think we’ll ever know for sure what happened. The fact that they cut ace in on songwriting when they had In Your Face in the bank makes it complicated.
Yeah, we know what happened. Simmons and Stanley recorded the album themselves with session players, stating "the way Ace and Peter wanted to do it would have taken a year". I mean, yeah, 'cause at the time Kiss had exactly WHAT else to do besides record what would probably be the only reunion album they'd ever do? Go record another Carnival of Souls and sink farther into obscurity? Something wrong with those guys (Simmons/Stanley). Talk about Vincent shooting himself in the foot? Psycho Circus was just another in a long line of egotistical asinine decisions by those guys, exceeded only by plopping replacement players into the make-up personna without giving them their own identity.
This is a fact. But rare is the discussion about how many songs did Paul and Gene play. They sure had replacements in that record as many others. There are killer bass riffs Gene could never play on Dynasty for instance. Actually he has been quite open about this.
I like tommy my problem with phycho circus is we were told we would get a original kiss album instead we got an overproduced album with one actual original kiss song into the void if they would have let ace and peter play the album would have sold alot better even if the critics hated it
I don't believe a word that Tommy says as he's scripted by Paul and probably Gene, but for sure Paul,as he runs that band and nothing is said ,unless it's totally approved !
@@natecannon6746 I'll tell you this at that time he was fighting addiction. Now the guy is in top Form. Tommy is just a cheap imitation. He can play the notes but doesn't have the soul. Hes a karaoke Guitarist a cheap chinese knockoff. The only Guitarist that was a great replacement for Ace was Bruce kulick. The Guy had soul. Seen Ace In the original years and seen Kulick two of the Best. Seen Thayer with Black and Blue. He sucked then and he sucks now.
@@MrTestallica Ace fighting addiction isn't a valid excuse for being a poor guitar player. He's even worse today, he has another lead guitarist with him on stage today to cover up the fact that he can't play anymore. Tommy on the other hand plays the solos and plays them properly. Not a cheap imitation, but a solid guitarist who gives the solos proper justice and proper sound. Bruce is great, I agree with you there. He too is better than Ace by a long shot.
@hary gun Ace creating the solos has absolutely nothing to do with today. Today, Ace butchers those solos that he played great in the 70s and substance abuse will do that. Tommy on the other hand plays them smooth and fluent, giving the solos the much needed justice that they deserve.
Tommy you shouldn't even need to explain. Best of luck to Kiss members past and present. Haters will always find an excuse to hate . Music lovers just enjoy the music .
I was really hoping for a ‘Rock and Roll Over’ part 2 with ‘Psycho Circus’. Strong enough songs but it didn’t sound like a reunion album (which it wasn’t of course). They needed an Ace Frehley friendly guy producing. Ace’s output outshadows KISS’ since 2000. I feel a little sorry for Tommy Thayer. He’s a good guitarist. I’ll be honest, when I saw KISS on the Sonic Boom and Kissworld tours, he was excellent. Ace is my favourite rock guitarist ever, but I was pleased that Tommy kept to the script on the solos. Ace’s solos are so key to so many songs. The truth is if Paul and Gene had had a contract saying it had to be them with Ace and Peter or nothing, we would have had nothing these last 15 years. (I don’t believe they have the stamina anymore.)
This sounds like Steve Perry firing Ross Valory and Steve Smith without actually "firing" them because they couldn't capture his sound! It's a bit disingenuous when Peter and Ace are not invited to record their parts on all of the tracks yet the album is billed as such. I really like Paul and Gene but sometimes their decisions are questionable (i.e., not inviting Eric Carr to record on "Revenge" even though Eric wanted to try). However, some of their decisions struck gold (or should I say platinum) too (i.e., firing Vinnie Vincent and later hiring Bruce Kulick as the full-time lead guitarist).
Only good song on the album is Ace's. Really it is a battle between the most recent album and Psycho Circus as to what is the worst KISS album of all time
the album was a fucking bait and switch which worked on a twelve year old me. my unlce at the time hated psycho circus and i didnt get it. as an adult i get it
Tommy is great, any hate is unjustified. Phyco Circus is better than a handful of albums Ace played on. Paul is right, it makes no difference if they have Ace or not
The song Psycho Circus just annoys the hell out of me since it first aired. Generic to the bone. So it surely surprised me not, that Thayer loves it so much.
No you're confusing the Ace and Peter stories with the Vinnie Vincent stories.... Vinnie was the one that always renegotiated contracts... Not that Vinnie is a wonderful human being necessarily.... But Kiss (read: Gene Simmons and Paul Stanley) have negative stories about everybody that's not on their payroll and doing what they want them to. At least some of the things that Vinnie Vincent claims happened to him were probably true, given that they (Gene and Paul) pulled the same crap on Peter and Ace repeatedly for years.
Seems fairly obvious to me. Business, plain and simple. Tommy is an employee, with Ace there would have been contract difficulties etc. etc. Far simpler to pay out a wage and have done with it. Weird little tribute act they became.
Last Kiss album I purchased. Had tickets to show once. Believed all the interviews on how if just 10 fans showed up they'd play their ass off. Show was cancelled for not enough ticket sales. Was a kid back then and they lost my respect. As an adult I understand economics and it wasn't really Kiss anyway, Asylum tour. Psycho was the next and last I bought.
Screw all this infighting. Gene is the baddest most most talented member of this band. Maybe it used to be Ace, but not today. Just let Gene writing and sing the songs, because he has gotten better and better as they go along. Gene is the definition of Rockstar without even trying. Go watch the video for Domino. They had Bruce Kulick, who is a straight badass, too. That whole Revenge album is Gene. And itsvone of their top five for sure. Not only that, Gene is knocking it down at their concerts. Screw any of these other guys. Get Bruce Kulick back and let Gene sing, Ill be all over it.
First off psycho circus is the KISS album that tried to hard to be Destroyer . Second it's clear we will never know the truth on just who played on the album . And last the only reason Tommy and Eric are there is because Paul and Gene want to be and should be the boss of KISS. Paul has stuck it out through the good and the bad and Gene did his fair share of keeping the band going. Ace has always shown he's better off on his own and Peter has done ok going it alone .
Well his net worth is +/- 12million and he has been in KISS or involved with so his average salary has been almost 450k a year..not bad for an imposter...😂🤣😂🤣
Yeah,. that's the narrative we get from Simmons and Stanley......if you believe it. Vincent in his prime was a superb player, and according to those that knew him at the time did not drink, except for the occasional glass of wine. Yet they brought in Rick Derringer to record some of his stuff on Lick It Up. No evidence there were any problems with Bruce Kulick, yet they unnecessarilly brought in Dick Wagner to play some of his stuff on Revenge. This is not to say Frehley and Criss didn't have well known issues with substances. But was that the reason others were brought in to play? Or, did the control freaks at the helm just do this as standard operating procedure, and then make excuses for why it was done so they wouldn't be perceived as assholes?
@@garyhill2740 That not a narrative , it's fact ! I've read comments by Ted Nugent about Ace's live performance , he said , " when he wasn't drunk , he shined " If you watch any live vid of KISS from 1976 on up .... Peter Criss is fucking horrible live ! And V Vincent was his own worst enemy ... Gene never said anything bad about his talent ... He said he was just as good as anybody out there and Paul said he loved righting songs with him ... Vinnie fucked himself out of that gig ! So did Ace and Peter , they were both begged not to leave .... Drugs and alcohol got the better of them and Vinnie's ego got the better of him .. Gene and Paul maybe greedy but , they are not ass holes towards people ... Just ask the bands that opened up for them ...Ace was a alcoholic and Peter was a major coke head .. They did themselves in .. Don't blame Gene and Paul !
Yup, you've read the Kisstory according to Gene and Paul too! Lol. If you read anything I said, you'll see I acknowledge that Frehley and Criss had well documented issues. Yet, when did Ace ever actually not show up? The one issue I've ever heard about, they apparently suited up Tommy before a show to replace Ace.....and how do we know this? Because Ace showed up, got really pissed, and the resulting altercation became Legendary. Lol. Why? Because Ace showed up! Lol. Simmons and Stanley are dysfunctional as well. Narcissistic megalomania to the point you can't work with anyone whom doesn't bow to your will is just as bad as any problem they claim anyone else has. And they pulled the same stuff on others that they pulled on Ace and Peter. Bruce Kulick's playing and work ethic are well known. Why would it ever be necessary to replace HIM with Dick Wagner at a session. Yet they pulled a "Destroyer" on him during Revenge. Yup. It's a narrative, always spun and slanted in Gene and Paul's favor.
@@garyhill2740 Yes exactly, another reason they kept playing switch the band members was it made them feel more secure and allowed them to pay them less!
I love💋 Ace, so Ace is good!Tommy you are not a space man🙅The current member's live will never go.Because KISS has the best Original members🙆 love the original members who have changed a lot as they get older.
into the void is the only good song on the album, the rest sound like out takes and b sides from the elder. gotta love how gene and paul have no problem at all lying to the faces of there fans for money. greedy. mean spirted. shallow. and short sighted and pathetic.
I like Ace but you guys who trashed everything to spite Paul and Gene..is just ..smh..into void has a great riff and is a decent song..plenty of great songs on the album - psycho circus, raise your glasses, journey of 1000 years, I pledge allegiance to the state of rock and roll
So, Ace was okay to play on Into the Void, You Wanted the Best, and In Your Face, but somehow the other material was to complicated? Every time Gene or Paul talk about it, it's a different lie. First it was Ace and Peter couldn't play, then Ace didn't show up, then Ace and Peter wanted more money. I tend to believe Ace and Peter when they say they were paid not to play due to Gene and Paul being control freaks. It must be so disheartening and depressing to play in a group with Gene and Paul.
I have read that the producer of P.C. didn't want Ace or Peter playing , he didn't feel they could complete his vision of a KISS record ..hard to grasp that Gene or Paul would hand over that power
This is a bunch bull, no we know Paul and Gene lied to fans around the world just to make another buck. This álbum supposed to be a return to classic Kiss which sounds a lot like the original band. Knowing now that Ace sing in the track into the void and did not let him play, just like Peter had a ballad song, to re-create the ilusión of Beth. Paul and Gene use other musicians because they want to control everything, now we know why Ace and Peter are so upset, because they have been used, many times. I was so happy to see the original band together again, now you discover, what Paul and Gene are up to. Monster the worst Kiss album ever, not in my collection never will.....
It’s a shitty album. Perhaps if ace and Peter had played on it more, it could have been better. My only issue with tommy is that he plays Ace’s parts lick for lick. He does nothing creative with the material. I know he doesn’t care, but it’s so boring to see someone just playing ace frehley and not doing anything unique or a fresh take on the material.
I can’t imagine a producer saying “I know this is the Kiss reunion record, but this just isn’t the sound I’m going for; let’s get someone else”
I can believe it .. producers , if given control do it all the time Ezrin does it ,he tossed Alice Cooper's band to use session players , he brought in the same people to play on Destroyer .
Ace and Peter burned out 10 years into Kiss because of Drugs and Booze and couldn't cut it anymore. Ace and Peter struggle to keep up with Gene and Paul who have kept Kiss alive while Ace and Peter did nothing. Quit making excuse for Ace who falls off the stage even while sober and Peter who can't keep proper standards and loses his temper when people call him on it.
I'm a producer. He could say that. But considering that 2nd party is Kiss, it would be their decision. If the 2 guys wanted, the other 2 would have recorded
@@ravenstrange8466 yeah bc Gene and Paul have never been cought in a similar lie before.. oh they have
@@ravenstrange8466 Imagine doing the mental gymnastics to write a paragraph of such complete bullshit. We should check your backside to see if Paul and Gene are working you like a puppet. KISS was in financial trouble and playing hotel convention spaces before Ace and Peter rejoined. They were no longer culturally relevant. Ace and Peter gave them the biggest tour on the planet. Gene was barely contributing to the records throughout the 80's. This started with Dynasty. Ace falls off the stage? Nice lie. Peter gets mad when Paul and Gene try to rip him off and treat him like a second class citizen. He isn't like Eric and Tommy who who ripped off what other people have created. They bow when they are in the presence of their masters. Enjoy your lip sync band. KISS was only ever on top with Ace and Peter.
I'm a big fan of the original lineup. But, one thing is for sure, if Tommy would have turned down the chance to be a millionare, some other guy would have taken it.
I agree Tommy was in a tight spot. A rock in a hard place if you will, damned if you do damned if you don't. I think he saw an opportunity and took it. You can't fault the guy he was a hired gun who made the most of his opportunity. I think Tommy really wanted to make 1 or 2 more albums with KISS to add something to the legacy. Was he a better guitar player than ACE no, but from his position he goes out every night to play the songs to the best of his ability without being drunk or screwed up. Professional at all times ready to play something that Paul and Gene needed. It would be hard for any player with an ego to get along with those two. I think his MO would be to be quiet come out and kickass at every show and the rest will take care of itself. It's easy to criticize when 99% of the guitar players would have jumped at that opportunity if they were being honest with themselves.
This album is fair at best. You can tell by the drum fills and guitar riffs that it's not Ace and Peter. It doesn't sound like a classic KISS rock record
Peter's inclusion wouldn't of helped any of that.
@@BaronVonBielski yeah...gene and Paul aren't dummies...a band needs a member or two who are the true founders and who can call it like it is...if Gene and Paul conclude Peter and ace can't play certain songs then I trust them...ask any guitarist if they can play anything off the cuff and they will say no way....no musician knows everything
@Nebby Scumbold - progressively worse? Not necessarily. Problem is the songs are new therefore some fans can't accept them. Psycho Circus is an awesome song irregardless of what you or other narrow-minded fans claim. Same with Modern Day Delilah and Hell Or Hallelujah. Newer high quality songs are ignored because they don't have the history. I don't listen to songs looking for history or caring who sings or plays on it. A great song is still a great song no matter what
@@richardlawson6787 Your sounding like Paul now and that's about the worst insult anyone could get
Ace did play lead on "You Wanted the Best," which is rather appropriate.
Except the song is complete garbage.
BaronVonBielski - Well, you can thank Gene Simmons for that baby.
He was definitely right about aces other song being you wanted the best cause ace has his own sound in which tommy will never duplicate.
Tommy is not and never will be ace or a fraction of....
The lies that Kiss and the record company have foisted on the fans is unconscionable. They fought for respect their whole career and once they got it they spit on the very people who gave it to them. Tragic.
Whats the old saying, Money is the root of all evil.
@@mewrongwayKOCXF
Money maybe but there is a lot to be said for depth of character and integrity…as in-if you don’t have it you can’t buy it.
Ace and Peter burned out 10 years into Kiss because of Drugs and Booze and couldn't cut it anymore. Ace and Peter struggle to keep up with Gene and Paul who have kept Kiss alive while Ace and Peter did nothing. Quit making excuse for Ace who falls off the stage even while sober and Peter who can't keep proper standards and loses his temper when people call him on it.
@@ravenstrange8466 What does this have to do with Paul and Gene being terrible people? Ace is a drunk therefore Paul Stanley can be an awful human being?
The induction into the Hall of Fame says it all... They were just too "big" to even perform... as the original FOUR... sad sad sad
Tommy was uncredited and had to buy his own copy. LOL
If that doesn’t tell you something about Paul and Gene idfk what dose
To all those complaining about KISS lying to you.
Welcome to the music industry.
No it's not the music industry, it's the band industry. Aerosmith - Toys in the attic. In the fine print it says that Tom Hamilton plays guitar on two or three tracks. It lists what songs Brad Whitford played lead on. We as fans understand that the studio allows certain freedoms. All we ask is truth and honesty.
@@randylohner8620 I agree!
Also Ace played guitar in the B-side of Psycho Circus single called In your face (which was not on the actual Psycho Circus Album).
It was on the Japanese Version as a Bonus Track.... In Your Face.
great tune
Yes which is bad ass.
I was a huge huge KISS fan back in the 70's and early 80's. I believed all the hype and that it really was those guys playing every note on every album. I bought Psycho Circus thinking I was getting what it was presented to be, but now know of course it's just another instance where they told you what they wanted you to think so you'd spend money on the album. Sadly the same is true of many their other albums. These days, we all know better and know we shouldn't believe much of anything stated as fact by them. Now, I just listen to the music and appreciate it for what it is without buying into all the baloney.
I always thought it was bullshit that they tried to convince everybody it was KISS. They knew people would buy the album thinking Ace and Peter were on it.
Not saying that it was right, but it wasn’t the first time they did that
The album was Kiss. It can be a Kiss album without all original members.
@@natecannon6746 It isnt the first time KISS has been disingenuous about things. They marketed that album to the public like it was the first album in years to feature all four original members playing on it. Paul and Gene did not want to include them because they wanted their puppet Tommy and whoever else to be in the studio so they could call all the shots abd not have to deal with Ace and Peter who both would have wanted at least a bit of input. But they wanted the fans to think it was the original four members creating an album together for the first time since the 70s. In fact, I almost got sucked in by it and was considering at least listening to it just for that reason alone. I am glad I did not. I was a huge KISS fan for many years and had every album up until Crazy Nights. As I became older and developed better taste in music I became less and less of a fan, although I remained a big fan of ACE and followed his solo career, buying albums like Frehley's Comet, LIVE +1 etc. Now I am 50 years old and the only KISS albums I own are the first three as well as ALIVE ! I also own most of ACE'S solo albums dating back to his 78 solo release. Why am I ranting on like this ? Just because Im trying to show how people's taste in music and attitudes towards bands and musicians can change over time. Plus, I am bored and cannot sleep.
What about .... Dynasty? Unmasked? Creatures of the Night?
@@JohnnyMegabyteCanada what about them ? Peter didnt play on any of them. Although he did contribute Dirty Livin to Dynasty. By that time they had sessíon drummers coming in.
If you listen to the lyrics on Into the Void, it's basically Ace singing how he wants to leave Kiss once again. Who could blame him?
Peter also sang on "you wanted the best".
Knowing how much KISS has LIED to us fans over the years, I refuse to give them another penny.
Ditto!!!
Ditto! Every couple years Gene runs out of money and here comes another farewell tour!
All bands do this stuff.
@@bcardamone Yes, but how many times have we heard G&P talk about how Kiss is the measuring stick for all other bands.
They didn't lie, Ace and Peter burned out 10 years into Kiss because of Drugs and Booze and couldn't cut it anymore. Ace and Peter struggle to keep up with Gene and Paul who have kept Kiss alive while Ace and Peter did nothing. Quit making excuse for Ace who falls off the stage even while sober and Peter who can't keep proper standards and loses his temper when people call him on it.
Hace años que no escucho a KISS pero cuando se trata del chisme aquí ando y seguiré. 😂😂😂😂😂
Say what you want but you can't deny, Tommy Thayer has an awesome guitar solo on Psycho Circus
Yeah but you can tell it's not Ace. It doesn't have that 🔥 and soul.
@@somewhatsomething4882 That’s just being sour because Ace didn’t play that solo. In the old days Ace was innovative. Nowadays he sucks. He never improved.
@@1979GenXdude that's not your own take. That's from Paul Stanley's book.
Title track, within and we are one are standout tracks.
Into the Void👍
"Within" was Bruce Kulick. I found that out recently.
@@billjannusch yeah, glad they played that song on the tour.
Psycho Circus, within , into the void , dreaming and journey of a 1000 years are the best the album had to offer . Songs like we are one and I finally found my way are just them trying to hard.
@@rocketdude2969 thank you!...
Absolutely makes no sense. You mean Peter and Ace can play live but are not able to play their chops when it comes to recording? BS. They just didn't want to bother with them and the royalties.
Without listening to this the reason was money.
Tommy Thayer filled in on the farewell tour without anyone knowing it because Ace wasn't up to doing the shows. As for saying Thayer did the album for money, it's kinda hard to cash in on work that you're not credited for.
@@Bad_Wolf_Media I'm coming from the direction of gene and paul had Thayer play as a hired gun instead of paying ace the money he would have demanded.
What show did Mr. Thayer actually play in while Ace Frehley was still in the band.
One time Ace was late and when he arrived, Mr. Thayer was dressed as Ace and ready to go, but Ace played that show.
There was a show where a drum tech dressed up as Peter and played, but that is a different story.
@@Bad_Wolf_Media Ace was ready and able to play on the Farewell Tour. He was touring himself the entire time anyway. Paul wouldn't pay Ace the money he deserved to do it
Or Tommy having greater ability than Ace.
Of course they blame it on the dead producer. Yeah right, Bruce insisted and Gene and Paul lost that fight. We’re not that stupid you know, even though you treat us as stupid
So Ace was good enough to play on Into the Void and You Wanted but not for the other stuff. What rubbish. Are the other songs all super complicated, highly intricate rock masterpieces that were somehow beyond anyone but Gene, Paul, and some hired guns? From what I hear on Into the Void, both Ace and Peter could have easily played the rest of the album if they were allowed to. Also, I saw Ace on his final stint with Kiss in Australia (with Singer on drums). They played around 25 songs, including some non-makeup stuff, he sang Talk to Me and Shock Me, and he was great.
Great point
Great point indeed. I think some folks have been spoon fed Kiss press releases for so many years, that just can't hear stuff like this even when presented to them directly. They will just start parroting the same garbage that Simmons and Stanley have been repeating in fanzine interviews for eons. (Imitates zombies) "But Ace was useless and drunk....and Tommy shows up....and Ace never did......blah..blah...blah.....". LOL
Let's see,I think Gene and Paul were always jealous of Ace and Peter because look at the Hard Rock and Metal acts from the 80s and 99s that followed KISS from Motley Crue and Anthrax to Poison and Guns N Roses to Metallica to Pantera all these bands who had members that sighted Ace Frehley and Peter Criss as influences Tommy Lee
Scott Ian
Ce Ce DeVille
Kirk Hammett
Slash
Steven Adler
Dimebag Darrell
Vinnie Paul and the list goes on of musicians who idolized Ace Frehley and Peter Criss,now if that is not a testament I don't know what is.
Playing live is very different from playing in the studio. In the studio you have to play multiple takes and some people just can't do that. And remember Vini Poncia did the same thing with Peter in 1979. Your lack of knowledge doesn't mean it didn't happen. Go do some research
@@brianstrutter1501 Have you ever recorded in a studio ? 4:35 4:35 . You seem to think you're some sort of expert on all things . Wannabe ... Just like Tommy
I will never understand why so-called professional musicians struggle so hard to learn and play other people's songs.
I've been a musician since 1990. When I am given a new song to learn, it takes me two days (one to learn, one to fix it in the memory) and that's it. Why someone has to have a higher level of concentration to play a different song, to the point it can be noticed, is beyond me.
Many people have only focused on their own style and haven't learned many different styles, genre's, style. Ace played his own way for so long that is basically all he does. Tommy by nature didn't play exactly like Ace. Learning every little nuance takes time. yeah anybody can get up and jam the song after a couple hours but to try to get every little bend, trill, etc that may not be within your own style can be weird. Other people, many who play in cover bands are the opposite. They may not have their "own style sound" but can copy other people's stuff very easily
@@r613-v7y Thanks for answering, Rob.
Actually I was referring to what Tommy said about Peter, and how he played "Psycho Circus".
Yeah, I agree it takes some time if you wanna play a carbon copy of the song, but unless you have a music sheet to read, almost no one plays the same thing twice, not even the original musicians who recorded a song. Maybe it's more a metal thing, a genre where I agree the bands tend to replicate more exactly what was played on the record.
Even so, playing is all these guys do. I hope they don't expect us to believe they don't have time to practice new songs, at least to the point where is no longer noticeable that you are more focused and more tense, just because it's someone else's song.
As I mentioned in another comment.... It takes time to get used to playing a song that you didn't record and had never heard. Peter didn't play on the album and so hadn't rehearsed the songs from it. He may not have even heard the new songs until right before the tour started. And playing new songs live in front of 20,000 people is a little different than learning them for your personal enjoyment.
@@garyhill2740 Hi, Gary, thanks for answering.
The learning process is the same, regardless of the size of your audience. A song doesn't become more difficult because you will play in a larger venue.
I personally never played in front of 20,000 people, but I had large audiences too, measured in thousands. I would be nervous only if I hadn't practiced.
It's their job, it's my job. We (musicians) have no excuse to be bad at it.
@@Igor_Vinicius I do feel what you're saying. I'm not a pro musician, or even a good amateur one, so you know more about that than I do. I have done some acting and broadcasting, and I know that performing a piece that you have had time to rehearse, and know well, is much easier than being thrown into performing something live that you just glanced over the night before. If that wasn't the case, no one would rehearse. That is my point. The band members that play on a recording have pre-recording rehearsals, multiple recording takes. Before commencing live shows, there are usually concert rehearsals before the tour. It wasn't that they were "struggling to play other people's songs". Ace does awesome covers of other people's songs all the time. Not playing on the recordings for the Psycho Circus album, probably not even knowing what songs were selected until after the fact.....Peter and Ace had much less opportunity to learn and become comfortable with the new material than Gene and Paul, before they played on the Psycho Circus tour. That's not an excuse, it's just common sense.
I don't care how professional you are, you're going to sound shakier if someone throws you in live without a net to play new stuff you've barely had time to learn. (Unless you're Eddie Van Halen, or Steve Vai, or Joe Satriani)
That doesn't make me think less of Ace or Peter at all, and I don't think in that context their performance at the time warrants undue criticism. Just my take.
I mean you still can’t call it a “reunion album” if the original lineup is only playing on one song. If things were really that bad back then why make an album at all?
You REALLY don´t know the answer to that....?
@@TheJimbo1791 the point I’m making is you can’t call it a reunion album if all the original band only play on a handful of songs.
I don’t think it was a bad or great album , it was kind of just thrown out there. Really don’t know what to make out of it but it’s not one of those albums I will pull out every once in a while. It just kind of gathers dust.
Creatures was a hodge podge and a great album. The comeback -Reunion-Farewell Days were just basic KISS smoke & mirrors.
100%, its clearly Ace on "You Wanted The Best" yes
It's a business. Business decisions get made. People have different skills and abilities. Life goes on.
Here's a cool idea... Watch the video and turn off the sound and read this while the video rolls.... ready? :::: (Tommy Thayer Speaking) .....I remember as a kid playing guitar and visiting music stores and seeing all these GREAT Guitars on the walls that I could not afford... Many years later as I was bringing Peter Criss from the band KISS Pizza and Water and making sure the guys had what they needed for the show.... I fell in Love with the Les Pauls that ACE Played, and he really was a total pro and a nice guy and I kept telling myself... man... he has the best gig ever. Great Guitars... Great Band... Man I really want that. So I sucked on Paul and Genes testicles and finally got a job...and now my VERY OWN Epiphone!!! YES... I Play it LIVE to all the backing tracks, and I LOVE the fact that I can inspire other fakers out there that really can't play that great...but I stay sober and do what the Bosses (Paul and Gene) Say... and Yes I do donate to charities... But just the One's that Gene and Paul give me a thumbs up to, you know.,, when I am off the tour and can do a little of what I want to when they are not bossing me around. But YES, Thanks to GIBSON for allowing my name on a guitar that might inspire some young person to pick one up and also learn solos from Kiss Albums that I had absolutely nothing to do with. I am glad to have this LEGACY.... Thank You All!!! (especially Gene and Paul... because they gave the OKAY on this)....
Because Paul and Gene didn't want Ace Frehley to play on it.
I know it’s been rumoured quote recently actualy that ace played on more songs on psycho circus then was previously stated in the past now weather that’s true or not I don’t know having listed to the album recently I’m picking up aces playing on quite a few of the songs be it lead or rythem guitar
...because Gene and Paul are the masters of deceiving their fans.
or cause ace cant play well enough, hmmm but your idea may be the reason hahaha
Thats my last buyed Cd on Kiss, and i am so happy about it, before i hear IT!, and in the Meantime we know why... there's no Ace and Peter on it, ecept 2 Tracks! Paul and Gene take all the Parts of them away. Like in the past.
Tommy Thayer couldn''t say another thing because Hes an contract Musician ! He's an very talented Guitar Player, but he will never be an Ace Frehley, ( btw: did he ever was drunk or else ? ) and the more he imitates him, the more he stinks. He should be Tommy Thayer himself and he would be great.
This Album was a great chance for the 4, but for G+P its only 4+shift = $
Well, none of the people who stood in for Ace and Peter on their '70s albums were ever credited. I heard Paul doesn't even want Gene playing on his ballads (don't know why) so Gene doesn't, except for "Forever," and so Paul is the only Kiss member playing on "Shandi" (Gene does backup vocals) but the other players are uncredited. The difference is that from the '90s to now, we Kiss fans have heard all the stories by now from fanzines, the internet, etc., about stuff like Anton Fig, etc., a million times, EXCEPT for everything surrounding Psycho Circus. Who did and didn't play on that album and why remains mostly a mystery, although I have heard Kevin Valentine's name thrown around. Tommy's story here is probably as good as what the four original members' stories would be, because Bruce Fairbairn has passed away, so he can't be interviewed regarding his choices.
When the fans have been through the DESTROYER ERA when KISS actually we're one of the best in the world PSYCHO CIRCUS seems like an insult on a platter. Sorry to be so harsh but I'm sure I'm not alone.
The last KiSS album featuring all four members was Love Gun Think about that.
Happy birthday today Mr. Thayer
Peter Criss's song on the album was quite good.
I agree 100%. Very overlooked and underrated.
He didn't get credit because the album was a complete ruse on the fans, only song on that album that all 4 original members played on was "Into the Void", Peter almost walked before they even released the album because he was so against lying to the fans, but once again you put Paul and Gene in control and that's what you get.
You didn't know that until Peter's Whine and Wbine tour
@@raulrodriguez9892 wrong
Money 🤑🤑🤑🤑
It would have been a much better album with Ace and Peter, and a different producer.
It's a fine album the way it is.
I like the sound on the album, some of the songs aren't so great though...also the tempo/energy at times could use a boost.
@Nunya Bizness Plenty of great songs on that album.
I think it was a great album. At a time when ace couldn’t play to his full potential I think tommy did absolutely brilliantly. I reckon if ace could play then like he can now, tommy wouldn’t be on that album.
not Saying it was a bad album it’s just not the KISS album I was expecting. I was expecting a Raw Rock and Roll album with the original members.
Not a terible album, but everybody was expecting a 70s like album with Ace and Peter
And lot a great album either
There is only one Ace .
I would bet that 95% of the people who criticize Tommy and Eric who jump at the chance to take their spot of they had the chance.
The biggest problem is not Tommy And Eric as musicians and persons. It is the fact that they use the Peter and Ace makeup and also move around like them.I am one of those who does not like that. If they had their own makup I would not be frustraited.
@@AndyMagnusson70 I understand that. My point is that if someone had a once in a lifetime chance to spend time in a world famous rock band and make a fortune, they also would put that make up on in a heartbeat, regardless how much they criticize someone else for doing it.
Nobody would pass on the opportunity
@@AndyMagnusson70 ..... it bothers me also, but Ace and Peter sold the makeup rights. For me, they didn’t want the rights so if someone else wears it, It’s a business decision. But it is weird
@@timp1051 Ever heard of MORALS and PRINCIPALS ? Obviously not
Tommy is a beast... Buuutttt.... he ain’t ACE
Nobody else is an Ace... Only Frehley is a real Ace
Definitely not an Ace...
Tommy shows up for practice, studio recordings, and shows sober and ready and willing to give 100% !
@@raulrodriguez9892 Aceonly giving 25% sounds wayyyyy better than Tommy at 100%
@@Kissarmy180 I'm sure he does, his bank account says otherwise!
And none of them are Bruce !
I'll bet it has to do with EGO and $$$$$$
What kind of band blatantly deceives their loyal fans to sell more records? They've lost my respect.
Where ya been for the past 30 years
No deception. You do what it takes to create a successful record. I’m sure KISS will be fine without ya!😉
When Peter and Ace were both finally gone in the early 80s, P and G had to have decided not to allow anyone else on the top of the mountain with them. Hired guns only, including Peter and Ace during the reunion tours. That way, they'd be covered either way, always making the other guys contractually obligated to do their jobs but without ever having to relinquish control. Deceiving the fans didn't matter b/c it was all part of the masquerade of rock and roll, and kept the business men (P & G) in business, which was (and is) far and away the most important thing.
This is Kiss from Day 1 my friend
@@ryanfulldark2775 I'm a huge KISS fan, but KISS took a huge nose dive when Ace and Peter left. They were playing in clubs for the revenge tour.
They then bring back Ace and Peter and have the biggest tour in the music industry for 2 or 3 years.
There's a reason Gene and Paul have Tommy and Eric dress up like Peter and Ace. Last 2 albums sucked. Kiss is just a tribute band tour off the success Ace and Peter helped build. KISS is basically nothing without Peter and Ace.
It’s bullshit That they didn’t have ace and peter play on it.
The only song on the album the original four play on is Into The Void. Ace and Peter also contributed on some of the other songs.
Hey Tommy got his wish he always wished he was Ace Frehley and now he gets to pretend he is every night
And cash a check also!!! Can you believe Kiss fans have made his net worth more than Ace's???imagine that..
@@raulrodriguez9892 Paul. , It is simple. , Write a list of all the things that Tommy has brought to KISS . Then write a list of all the things that ACE FREHLEY has brought to KISS, including his makeup and the logo . I guarantee you don't put the two lists on the net so everybody can see because when you see the lists , you will realise your making a complete fool of yourself
Are you having a laugh
My god ace is so good now
If Ace was playing somewhere and Thayer’s old band were playing venues across the street from each other, I can guarantee you who would have more of an audience, you all know the answer!
@@sjs1555 because he has no solo career unless you consider Black and Blue, which wouldn’t stand up to Aces solo career. I’d still go see Ace before I saw Kiss lite.
@@sjs1555 mam you Thayer heads are unbelievable. That’s like saying John Bonham is a fat alcoholic and Jason is the best drummer of all time. Ace blows Thayer out the window. All Thayer does is copy the songs and licks Ace wrote. Good for him but give me a fucking break
@@sjs1555 listen moron
All I’m saying is give the man respect for what he did in the 70s, at least when he performs its real vocals and music and not lip syncing. I actually don’t have an issue with Thayer, I would do the same if given the opportunity, but give credit where it’s due
Paul and Gene did it so Ace wouldn't get royalties. Ace and Peter Criss both said they were offered 650,000 bucks to NOT play on the album.
650,000 each?
As apposed to 2 mil if they had played!
That sums it up perfectly . Those two guys are THAT greedy
I honestly don't know why KISS didn't want Peter and Ace playing on this album.
Fans were excited the two guys were back in the band, personally I thought the album sounded exactly like the non make up era. Both Peter and Ace give KISS a distinct sound.
Also Gene and Paul constantly say they do it for the fans, fans are the boss. Stories like this and Rock n Roll Hall of fame where they refused to play with Ace and Peter, I find that complete B.S.
I lost a lot of respect for them because of the rock n roll hall of fame.
I don’t think we’ll ever know for sure what happened. The fact that they cut ace in on songwriting when they had In Your Face in the bank makes it complicated.
Yeah, we know what happened. Simmons and Stanley recorded the album themselves with session players, stating "the way Ace and Peter wanted to do it would have taken a year". I mean, yeah, 'cause at the time Kiss had exactly WHAT else to do besides record what would probably be the only reunion album they'd ever do? Go record another Carnival of Souls and sink farther into obscurity? Something wrong with those guys (Simmons/Stanley). Talk about Vincent shooting himself in the foot? Psycho Circus was just another in a long line of egotistical asinine decisions by those guys, exceeded only by plopping replacement players into the make-up personna without giving them their own identity.
This is a fact. But rare is the discussion about how many songs did Paul and Gene play. They sure had replacements in that record as many others. There are killer bass riffs Gene could never play on Dynasty for instance. Actually he has been quite open about this.
I like tommy my problem with phycho circus is we were told we would get a original kiss album instead we got an overproduced album with one actual original kiss song into the void if they would have let ace and peter play the album would have sold alot better even if the critics hated it
Your welcome to come over here and then I can come over
No one should have ever been able to wear Ace's or Peter's make-up
I don't believe a word that Tommy says as he's scripted by Paul and probably Gene, but for sure Paul,as he runs that band and nothing is said ,unless it's totally approved !
Anyone who listened to Ace knows what he played on . He had soul.
Thayer is like a Bad Elvis impersonator.
If Tommy is a bad elvis, i'd hate to know what Ace is beings that Tommy had to reteach Ace before the reunion.
@@natecannon6746 I'll tell you this at that time he was fighting addiction. Now the guy is in top Form.
Tommy is just a cheap imitation. He can play the notes but doesn't have the soul.
Hes a karaoke Guitarist a cheap chinese knockoff.
The only Guitarist that was a great replacement for Ace was Bruce kulick. The Guy had soul.
Seen Ace In the original years and seen Kulick two of the Best. Seen Thayer with Black and Blue. He sucked then and he sucks now.
@@MrTestallica Ace fighting addiction isn't a valid excuse for being a poor guitar player. He's even worse today, he has another lead guitarist with him on stage today to cover up the fact that he can't play anymore. Tommy on the other hand plays the solos and plays them properly. Not a cheap imitation, but a solid guitarist who gives the solos proper justice and proper sound. Bruce is great, I agree with you there. He too is better than Ace by a long shot.
@hary gun Ace creating the solos has absolutely nothing to do with today. Today, Ace butchers those solos that he played great in the 70s and substance abuse will do that. Tommy on the other hand plays them smooth and fluent, giving the solos the much needed justice that they deserve.
@hary gun so is your input.
I’m just not going to pay money to see Eric Singer and Tommy Thayer .....
That's actually fucked, why on earth wasn't peter and ace allowed to play on the album?
Because Gene and Paul are egotistical control freaks.
Tommy you shouldn't even need to explain.
Best of luck to Kiss members past and present.
Haters will always find an excuse to hate .
Music lovers just enjoy the music .
I was really hoping for a ‘Rock and Roll Over’ part 2 with ‘Psycho Circus’. Strong enough songs but it didn’t sound like a reunion album (which it wasn’t of course). They needed an Ace Frehley friendly guy producing. Ace’s output outshadows KISS’ since 2000. I feel a little sorry for Tommy Thayer. He’s a good guitarist. I’ll be honest, when I saw KISS on the Sonic Boom and Kissworld tours, he was excellent. Ace is my favourite rock guitarist ever, but I was pleased that Tommy kept to the script on the solos. Ace’s solos are so key to so many songs. The truth is if Paul and Gene had had a contract saying it had to be them with Ace and Peter or nothing, we would have had nothing these last 15 years. (I don’t believe they have the stamina anymore.)
Liking the band is one thing, giving them money is a sure sign of simpleton.
Ace's solo albums prove this wrong. Into the Void was the only good song on the album.
And his Solo albums suck!! Want proof, look at its sales and his net worth...there, see how much his fans really supported it...
Sure, that's why he reached number 1. @@raulrodriguez9892
They all know what songs they played on and what songs they didnt. KISS is a giant gag order.
This sounds like Steve Perry firing Ross Valory and Steve Smith without actually "firing" them because they couldn't capture his sound! It's a bit disingenuous when Peter and Ace are not invited to record their parts on all of the tracks yet the album is billed as such. I really like Paul and Gene but sometimes their decisions are questionable (i.e., not inviting Eric Carr to record on "Revenge" even though Eric wanted to try). However, some of their decisions struck gold (or should I say platinum) too (i.e., firing Vinnie Vincent and later hiring Bruce Kulick as the full-time lead guitarist).
Lol and then getting vv back to co-write
Ego and $$$ no doubt!. Gene and Paul could get away with paying hired guns less than Ace and Peter!.
Only good song on the album is Ace's. Really it is a battle between the most recent album and Psycho Circus as to what is the worst KISS album of all time
There is only one Space Ace. Tommy should’ve had he’s own persona like the Walrus or the Skunk.
Bruce Kulick played some lead on the album too
Buy the japanaese import...it has the bonus track In Your Face.... Ace on guitar and vocals....
the album was a fucking bait and switch which worked on a twelve year old me. my unlce at the time hated psycho circus and i didnt get it. as an adult i get it
Tommy is great, any hate is unjustified. Phyco Circus is better than a handful of albums Ace played on. Paul is right, it makes no difference if they have Ace or not
No it's not, any album Ace played on is better than PC, and Into the Void is actually the best song on it. i respect Tommy's work with KISS though.
Totally justified
The song Psycho Circus just annoys the hell out of me since it first aired. Generic to the bone. So it surely surprised me not, that Thayer loves it so much.
Ace and Peter didn't hardly play on the album because they kept asking to renegotiate their contracts for every little thing.
No you're confusing the Ace and Peter stories with the Vinnie Vincent stories.... Vinnie was the one that always renegotiated contracts...
Not that Vinnie is a wonderful human being necessarily....
But Kiss (read: Gene Simmons and Paul Stanley) have negative stories about everybody that's not on their payroll and doing what they want them to.
At least some of the things that Vinnie Vincent claims happened to him were probably true, given that they (Gene and Paul) pulled the same crap on Peter and Ace repeatedly for years.
Seems fairly obvious to me. Business, plain and simple. Tommy is an employee, with Ace there would have been contract difficulties etc. etc. Far simpler to pay out a wage and have done with it. Weird little tribute act they became.
Last Kiss album I purchased. Had tickets to show once. Believed all the interviews on how if just 10 fans showed up they'd play their ass off. Show was cancelled for not enough ticket sales. Was a kid back then and they lost my respect. As an adult I understand economics and it wasn't really Kiss anyway, Asylum tour. Psycho was the next and last I bought.
I like that Psycho Circus album, Song. Their last good release
Screw all this infighting. Gene is the baddest most most talented member of this band. Maybe it used to be Ace, but not today. Just let Gene writing and sing the songs, because he has gotten better and better as they go along. Gene is the definition of Rockstar without even trying. Go watch the video for Domino. They had Bruce Kulick, who is a straight badass, too. That whole Revenge album is Gene. And itsvone of their top five for sure. Not only that, Gene is knocking it down at their concerts. Screw any of these other guys. Get Bruce Kulick back and let Gene sing, Ill be all over it.
First off psycho circus is the KISS album that tried to hard to be Destroyer . Second it's clear we will never know the truth on just who played on the album . And last the only reason Tommy and Eric are there is because Paul and Gene want to be and should be the boss of KISS. Paul has stuck it out through the good and the bad and Gene did his fair share of keeping the band going. Ace has always shown he's better off on his own and Peter has done ok going it alone .
Tommy Thayer only copies aces style, he played in a cover band!
Paul Stanley still thinks he is KISS just because he owns the band.. fool*
NO TOMMY IS NOT SAYING A FUKEEING THING
Tommy is a yes man, Hired gun. Guess I cannot blame him, I wonder how much he gets paid per show,
Well his net worth is +/- 12million and he has been in KISS or involved with so his average salary has been almost 450k a year..not bad for an imposter...😂🤣😂🤣
Into the void is the best song on that album
So what's new ?! They've been replaced before in their prime because Ace was to drunk or Peter wasn't good enough to play a complex drum part .
Yeah,. that's the narrative we get from Simmons and Stanley......if you believe it. Vincent in his prime was a superb player, and according to those that knew him at the time did not drink, except for the occasional glass of wine. Yet they brought in Rick Derringer to record some of his stuff on Lick It Up. No evidence there were any problems with Bruce Kulick, yet they unnecessarilly brought in Dick Wagner to play some of his stuff on Revenge. This is not to say Frehley and Criss didn't have well known issues with substances. But was that the reason others were brought in to play? Or, did the control freaks at the helm just do this as standard operating procedure, and then make excuses for why it was done so they wouldn't be perceived as assholes?
@@garyhill2740
That not a narrative , it's fact ! I've read comments by Ted Nugent about Ace's live performance , he said , " when he wasn't drunk , he shined "
If you watch any live vid of KISS from 1976 on up .... Peter Criss is fucking horrible live !
And V Vincent was his own worst enemy ... Gene never said anything bad about his talent ... He said he was just as good as anybody out there and Paul said he loved righting songs with him ...
Vinnie fucked himself out of that gig ! So did Ace and Peter , they were both begged not to leave .... Drugs and alcohol got the better of them and Vinnie's ego got the better of him ..
Gene and Paul maybe greedy but , they are not ass holes towards people ... Just ask the bands that opened up for them ...Ace was a alcoholic and Peter was a major coke head .. They did themselves in .. Don't blame Gene and Paul !
Yup, you've read the Kisstory according to Gene and Paul too! Lol. If you read anything I said, you'll see I acknowledge that Frehley and Criss had well documented issues. Yet, when did Ace ever actually not show up?
The one issue I've ever heard about, they apparently suited up Tommy before a show to replace Ace.....and how do we know this? Because Ace showed up, got really pissed, and the resulting altercation became Legendary. Lol. Why? Because Ace showed up! Lol.
Simmons and Stanley are dysfunctional as well. Narcissistic megalomania to the point you can't work with anyone whom doesn't bow to your will is just as bad as any problem they claim anyone else has. And they pulled the same stuff on others that they pulled on Ace and Peter. Bruce Kulick's playing and work ethic are well known. Why would it ever be necessary to replace HIM with Dick Wagner at a session. Yet they pulled a "Destroyer" on him during Revenge.
Yup. It's a narrative, always spun and slanted in Gene and Paul's favor.
@@kennopalus Good comment. I want to add that if Gene and Paul are such assholes then how can Eric or Tommy stay in the band for 20 or so years.
@@garyhill2740 Yes exactly, another reason they kept playing switch the band members was it made them feel more secure and allowed them to pay them less!
What Gene and Paul should have done was been the producers themselves.
I love💋 Ace, so Ace is good!Tommy you are not a space man🙅The current member's live will never go.Because KISS has the best Original members🙆 love the original members who have changed a lot as they get older.
Tommy’s just trying to justify wearing Ace’s makeup and pretending to be him. Just like the rest of the band, he’s riding Ace’s coat tail.
I'm sure the guitar playing was better with Thayer.
into the void is the only good song on the album, the rest sound like out takes and b sides from the elder. gotta love how gene and paul have no problem at all lying to the faces of there fans for money. greedy. mean spirted. shallow. and short sighted and pathetic.
I like Ace but you guys who trashed everything to spite Paul and Gene..is just ..smh..into void has a great riff and is a decent song..plenty of great songs on the album - psycho circus, raise your glasses, journey of 1000 years, I pledge allegiance to the state of rock and roll
So, Ace was okay to play on Into the Void, You Wanted the Best, and In Your Face, but somehow the other material was to complicated? Every time Gene or Paul talk about it, it's a different lie. First it was Ace and Peter couldn't play, then Ace didn't show up, then Ace and Peter wanted more money. I tend to believe Ace and Peter when they say they were paid not to play due to Gene and Paul being control freaks. It must be so disheartening and depressing to play in a group with Gene and Paul.
Peter well you know
Ace left Kiss..twice.
No offence but put you talked not tommy
I HATE HOW GENE AND PAUL PUT TOMMY THAYER AND BOB KULICK ON ALBLEMS AND DIDNT CREDIT THE REAL PLAYERS I DONT LIKE GHOST PLAYERS LIEING 2 US FANS
I have read that the producer of P.C. didn't want Ace or Peter playing , he didn't feel they could complete his vision of a KISS record ..hard to grasp that Gene or Paul would hand over that power
FRAY LEE.
Please stop saying FREE LEE. Please.
This is a bunch bull, no we know Paul and Gene lied to fans around the world just to make another buck. This álbum supposed to be a return to classic Kiss which sounds a lot like the original band. Knowing now that Ace sing in the track into the void and did not let him play, just like Peter had a ballad song, to re-create the ilusión of Beth. Paul and Gene use other musicians because they want to control everything, now we know why Ace and Peter are so upset, because they have been used, many times. I was so happy to see the original band together again, now you discover, what Paul and Gene are up to. Monster the worst Kiss album ever, not in my collection never will.....
Ace is The Space Man
It’s a shitty album. Perhaps if ace and Peter had played on it more, it could have been better.
My only issue with tommy is that he plays Ace’s parts lick for lick. He does nothing creative with the material. I know he doesn’t care, but it’s so boring to see someone just playing ace frehley and not doing anything unique or a fresh take on the material.
Omg, could you be more original with your comment!! For the millionth time, It's what he is paid to do!!! Recreate the Magic!!!