Queerbaiting In Stranger Things - Definition, History and Season 4 Vol 2.
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- Опубликовано: 8 июл 2024
- Did "Stranger Things" hint that "Byler" was going to happen? Is Mike queercoded? Is Will Byers even gay?
Hello and welcome to this video essay! Now when Season 4 vol 2 is out, we can finally answer the question of our time! Did we get Queerbaited??
For my opinion on Robin Buckleys storyline -check that out here: • Problematic Representa...
DISCLAIMER: In this video I spoil what happens to Will in the aspect of his sexuality and romantic storyline, the same with Mike. But I don't spoilanything else regarding season 4.
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00:00 Intro
00:30 Chapter 1 - Definition
01:27 Chapter 2 - History and Examples
04:43 Chapter 3 - Common Critique
04:49 3.1 The Mix Up of Queercoding and Queerbaiting
07:26 3.2 Reading Queer Subtext
09:26 3.3 Queerbaiting or just Bad Representation?
11:27 3.4 Fandom Fetishizing of Gay Men
12:59 Conclusion Common Critique
13:23 Chapter 4 - Stranger Things
14:53 4.1 Byler
27:10 4.2 Will Byers as an individual character
39:20 Conclusion
40:51 Commenting Noah Schnapps confirmation of Will's sexuality
41:53 Outro (with memes!)
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OTHER QUEER VIDEO ESSAYS:
• That scene sure was a ...
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You can find me at:
/ insingersfall
/ katjaoq
obviouslyqueer@gmail.com
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SOME GREAT SOURCES:
• / kaypeace21
• beepboop358.tumblr.com/post/6...
• willthewise7.tumblr.com/post/...
• • The Problem With Queer...
• • A Brief History of Sub...
• • Gays React To Queerbai...
You said Mike now had problems hugging his friends… he hugs everyone BUT will 🫣 if that’s not internalised homophobia than I don’t know what it is
We'll see in 2024 👀
Hmm now that I think about it, there could be a chance that something romantic could happen between them in season 5. I feel like it would be an action that would be open for interpretation. Like a nonverbal thingie
@@sabrina3138 like a big love confession or a kiss? cause I know that’s gonna happen 🙈
@@angelwithnightmares I bet Mike will publicly confess his love while will is being controlled/manipulated by vecna
Just a guess
What I was trying to explain to a straight friend of mine was that "It's the 80's, it would have been unrealistic for a young man back then to feel comfortable coming out to his friends" isn't a valid excuse, because you can make a character textually, explicitly, unquestionably gay without having them come out to anyone. How the character acts in private or when no one else is watching them is as easy a way to make a character's sexuality explicit as having them openly declare their feelings to another character.
I feel the exact same way. It was hard coming out in the early 2000s even so it feels realistic to me in Stranger Things.
100%!! The amount of people saying "but it's the 80's" as an explanation is just overwhelming. There are so many ways they could have clarified it while still being true to the time, if that's something they wanna do.
Exactly. Like, yes, it was the 80’s but even fcking Game of Thrones showed/depicted queer people despite it being set in more medieval times (although more on the fantasy timeline)
@@anafrost7192 right! People saying Will can't come out because it's the 80's made me think so much of when people criticized Game of Thrones for the high amount of on screen sexual abuse and people were like "but it's the medieval times it's realistic".
It's not an explanation it's an excuse not to portray it.
@@obviouslyqueer you're right it's not a good reason.. And I agree that it would have been cool if they clarified more. I would just add that a big difference between ST and GOT queer characters is age. It does add realism if a character in the 80s learns, puts into words and accepts his sexuality a bit later.. especially if his journey prior to this season has always been "my friends are growing up faster than me". But of course you could show him having doubts even more clearly, like his reactions to something on the tv or his reaction to something Robin says maybe? It could be made much more explicit that he's having doubts about this specific thing.
Finn Wolfhard said in an interview that Mike has no idea of Will's feelings for him. That's one of the biggest reasons why people think that in that scene 22:56 Mike is suffering from internal homophobia. I am hopeful that Byler will happen, otherwise I think they have wasted a lot of a pretty good story and everything that refers to it. But who knows, we can only wait.
Exactly. I'm a gay Mike truther and really see Mike acting different towards Will as a whole in S3 and S4 because of those struggles. And I hope Byler happens too. They've paralleled them with other canon couples so much, plus the cast members, writers, and Netflix have all hinted to it and talked about them to the point it just HAS to be canon in S5.
We will see in 2024 👀 I think the Duffer Brothers are just unaware of queer subtext and/or are Queerbaiting... Unfortunately. But it would he great if Mike was gay!
@@MomoKanjaki Lmao "a gay Mike truther." I think Mike's bi. Also, why is Finn playing Mike the way he is towards Will if Mike has "no idea" that Will likes boys/has a crush on him? I think queerbaiting may turn out to be the case here, unfortunately
@@brie1026 I state Mike's gay due to the evidence backing it up. But, that's fine for others to think Mike is bi. And Mike has internalized h0m0phobia.
@@brie1026 With that being said, if it turns out they don't do anything with the canon material they gave Mike both in the show AND out the show, then yeah it will 100% be qu33rbaiting. And I'll still see Mike as gay whether it's acknowledged in S5 or not.
I hope the Duffel Bags will actually address Will’s sexuality properly and not use it for only strengthening a straight ship.
100%!
I agree! They’ve stretched out the arc of wills sexuality so far, I don’t think they will end it in rejection and have him sacrifice himself for Mike so mike can “be with El”. and even if he doesn’t die, any rejection would have him right back to where he started. The duffer brothers are too clever of writers to do that to a character so complex and special to a lot of people who see themself in Will or just love him in general (which is pretty much 98% of the stranger things fans)
Duffel bags 😂
I think will's queercoding is obvious and has been present since season one, and byler is really cute because the way their characters have been written and put together throughout the four seasons was really touching and they would just make sense as a romantic pairing. the details and hints have become so stacked up I'm pretty convinced they'll be endgame because no one and I mean NO ONE writes a slowburn rejection lol. mikes character being interpreted as struggling with internalized homophobia is one of the only ways his character development makes sense to me. if you look at his character on a surface level, he's completely contradicting himself over the seasons and it would just make him completely insufferable. I think byler stans are reading queer subtext where it DOES exist and while season four was very bittersweet and kinda felt like queerbaiting?? that's just me being dramatic. I very much have hope for these two because the amount of detail they've put into implying feelings for eachother, romantically coding their scenes, queercoding both of them, ect ect has me convinced they'll happen in season five. or maybe I'm just going insane. oh and will deserves to be happy and not suffer anymore. him dying or having his feelings for mike go unrequited will be the death of me. and if mike is will's happy ending, let him have it!!
Thank you for your comment! I do disagree on the fact that I don't think the Byler scenes are especially Queercoded, I can see it - after research but I think it's far fetched. But i do think it's interesting they're portraying a slow burn rejection? Like, what's the POINT of Will being in love with Mike if they're not gonna end up together (which I don't think) and it's not the explicitly make Will gay (which he is?) That's just... Such bad writing.
@@obviouslyqueer this maybe is my very very own opinion and experience, but I liked all about Will’s journey because it remembered to me the experience of someone that is very close to me. That person had a similar journey to accept being gay, he had an extreme case of internalized homophobia, and that was in the 2000’s. Like in the case of Mike he had girlfriends (a lot of them actually) maybe he was trying to feel something or just was in denial and all changed after he had a crush with a boy. He was so much in denial, that said that he was bi, but he knew he was going to marry a girl and not a boy. But actually he was just gay and now he accepts it. Some people of our family is of the Jehovas witness religion and his father was very very homophobic. Like the father of Will and Mike.
If they are portraying this for me, it could be awesome and I would love to see Will revealing and accepting his sexuality after so much struggle in Season 5. I understand that now this kind of representation feels like old, but in my case they have touched my heart personally, and in the case of Will they did it very well in S4 not so much in the case of Mike, but still they can fix it. And for me is a very realistic portrayal for people of their age going through that process.
I know that you think they should have made it more obvious, and not so indirect but they have the excuse that are teenagers discovering themselves. At the very least, Will should come out to all the gang and Eleven and Mike should break up.
@@obviouslyqueerit’s bad writing for will if byler doesn’t happen in some way shape or form, because the rejection and then lead to death ultimately puts it to the duffers as horrible writing and leading the lamb to the slaughter. Will and Mike have something that eleven and Mike don’t. Eleven needs to be independent and Mike needs to find himself along side will. If it weren’t for will, eleven would’ve never been apart of mikes life long term.
I personally ship Mike and Will because he's been a really supportive person to him(aside from some hiccups these past few seasons). And also, Mike's character in S4 simply contradicts itself if you're only looking at him from a surface level. So I definitely think that boy has something deeper going on.
But also, the Duffer Brothers have stated Will will play a big role in S5. And that they don't really plan on introducing new major characters. And that's got me thinking. If there's going to be no new major characters, that leaves only four options for Will.
A. He forms a bond with a minor/side character they slide in at the last minute and nothing actually happens. Things are only implied.
B. Will sacrifices himself(there are a lot of parallels between him and Vecna)
C. Will survives but ends up alone and unhappy whether or not he confesses.
D. Will confesses to Mike and they get together
Now, I hate option A. I don't like when shows imply that a character is queer and they toss in little hints but then the actual relationship is with a random character they made at the last minute. And everything is only implied at the end. That's the safe option.
Option B and C, I hate as well. Will Byers has been tormented for 4 seasons. Every other character has had times in their arcs where they've been allowed happiness to balance all the bad things that happen to them. I could count on my hand the amount of times Will has genuinely smiled in this show. Versus how much he spends being traumatized, ignored or bullied. And giving him an unhappy ending after a life of unhappiness would be the least satisfying conclusion ever. Some might say, "Oh. It's realistic. That's what people back then experienced." Yeah. Undead wizards and children with telekinetic powers are really realistic too. No.
But imagine how satisfying it would be to have Will play a big role in S5. Be a key player in finding and taking down Vecna after all he's put him through. And then getting the love that he thought was one sided reciprocated by Mike. After several years of misery, I want Will Byers to have a happy ending. Not a sad one. Not a bittersweet one. Pure, unconditional happiness. Let's go with option D.
Oh how much I would wish for option D. And I totally agree with you on basically all points.
It's just that, sadly, I don't see it happening. I'm really afraid it's gonna be B or C, and if it would be A I'd be fucking enraged, honestly.
And I do wholeheartedly believe that they could tell an amazing story with the two getting together, the possibility is there, but in the world we live in and all, I just can't expect it to happen, as much as I'd love that.
That honestly makes me kinda sad :(
i would love to see the d possibility but this show is written by two straight guys I don't put my hopes in them, but yeah Will byers DESERVE to be happy, loved and no victim anymore, he never ever did anything wrong and he just suffered all time along and if he die by the end will be just one of the most unnecessary sad things I ever seen
They said S5 would be Will's coming of age season in a way, and he is the only character who hasn't had a first kiss yet, which is usually something media includes in coming of age stories...
I still hope and believe it can happen, with Mike.
Mike totally has internalized homophobia if you look into the way he was raised, bullied, and even his interactions with Will
I really hope for option D honestly, because Will deserves a happy ending, but I honestly... okay, so I would like to add two more options that I think might happen.
E. Will survives but ends up happy because his family and friends still love him, but heartbroken
F. Will confesses to Mike, they have a romantic moment, and THEN Will dies
And honestly, I really hope for D, because every other option is just... Not as good (especially not A, that one just sucks on every level) but I think that we know that D has a like, I'm hoping for at least a 20% chance of happening. But I do really feel like they would (or should) have made Mike more clearly gay, because a lot of these things are just very difficult to pick up on. I mean, even I only caught, what, 3 moments in season 4 while watching it the first time that made me think "Hold up... he gay?" (the packing scene, the triple take, and the first part of the painting scene)
And I feel like, in order for a while love story to happen with a whole internalized homophobia thing going on, would just need more scenes that don't just hint at, but prove Mike's sexuality, I mean AT LEAST 3, but if they manage to do that in season 5 I would just be over the moon, so lets at least try to our best to go with option D.
Byler being endgame is such a conflicting subject for me, on one hand, I'm an avid byler shipper who enjoys and indulges in theories and analyzing media, on the other hand, I am very much aware of the duffer brothers being straight and the possibility of them not understanding the queer subtexts that they (possibly) unintentionally added. The only thing is I still have so much hope for the possibility. Just imagining a show as BIG as Stranger Things having their main characters be queer and (happily) endgame is such a sought-after thought for me, a queer teenager around not so accepting people. That kind of representation on my screen, and to be honest, on everyone's screens, would be such a pivotal moment for me. This led to me indulging and delving into these theories, Tumblr posts, hell I even finished the 341 pages worth of byler analysis for the fun of it. I want to be what many consider a delusional shipper because seeing that kind of representation, a slow-burn, REQUITED gay love being so explicitly on my screen would mean so goddamn much it hurts.
However, I don't want to get my hopes up just to be completely and utterly disappointed by another piece of media again when it comes to queer representation. I'm keeping my expectations lower, I'll be alright with Will explicitly coming out to the audience and for him to have a happy ending. (Which let's be real isn't all that of a low expectation.) But it's not as much of an empty promise as Byler being endgame in comparison. I will be ecstatic and shocked to my core if Byler end up together, I will be honest it's what I fantasize about happening when it comes to season 5. But keeping it as it is, a sought-after daydream (for now at least), will help prevent me from disappointment. Nonetheless, I'm not gonna lie when I say I so deeply want Byler to happen.
Thank you for you comment! It might be a conflicting subject but I think that you phrase it and discuss it very logical and clever.
As you could tell from the video I agree that Byler would be such an amazing and groundbreaking representation. Us queers deserve this type of media - a slow burn, mainstream, complex and intricate love story. But just like you I'm realistic, and I don't think we're there yet.
I think - if I'm being harsh - that you will be disappointed, but that doesn't take away all of the happiness that this ship has given you. Like, that's why I love fandom spaces - its such a nice, creative, all consuming hobby with a lot of love and community. And thats wonderful that Byler has given you that, even if it never becomes canon.
41:53 that was so funny. Honestly, what a great video essay. I didn't notice clear gay signs of Will until that scene in season 3 when Mike says "it's not my fault that you don't like girls" and it hit me because I've been told something similar to that when I was younger, and it clicked for me. So, while I watched season 4 it was very obvious to me BUT after I finished it, I watched it again with my mother and after the van scene with Will crying after showing the painting to Mike, my mom said: "he likes eleven too?". I was like "Oh no". I explained it to her and she understood it, sort of. The thing is I don't blame her for not realising. I can see that is more difficult to catch up certain queer related details for straight people and older people. But that's my view.
Also, my take on if byler will be endgame or not has changed a lot lately. At first, I thought "no way they are doing it" but after all these clues and details, this video included, they got me thinking the chances of happening may be higher and it would actually fit. However, sadly you are so right when you said they waited for the final season for a possible reveal to not upset homophobes. And the fact that they will do spin-off series and other stuff related to Stranger Things, got me thinking back again that they will probably not "risk" doing it. We'll see.
Thank you so much! 😊🙏
Yeah even after Noah Schnapps unofficial
but still valid confirmation of Wills sexuality, I see people who deny it or wont't buy it until it's explicit in the show, which really proves my point. It's safe. They do safe choices.
Haha yeah when I started researching this video I was like "no way Byler is going to happen" and after several days in Byler communities I was like... "or is it" haha. I still don't think they're gonna do it. It's too risky, but it would be nice.
I recently watched this show and talked about it with a friend of mine. When I asked her what she thought about Will and Mike she didn't understand what I meant. She said that Will had been acting a bit odd in and was hiding sth in the last season... Then I told her that the car scene was a love revelation and she seemed shocked, for real. I don't judge her for not understanding it, it's just that it was so obvious to me, I thought everybody got it... (I'm straight though 😂)
As someone who is older, I think it’s all accurate to the time. Robin would have an easier time coming out as a Lesbian than Will would as being gay. This is the start of the AIDS pandemic. Lesbians did not really get it and did not face that stigma. Men were more into the “macho” stuff at the time and the AIDS pandemic made stigma worse. People risked a lot to come out as a gay man then. You were banished as possibly having AIDS. It also shows truth of some friends of now have. I live in New York. People from the Midwest (including Indiana) came here to New York for a community that really didn’t exist in those small towns. They truly felt they couldn’t come out in those towns at this moment of history. This inner conflict could actually play a big role in season 5 as we learn about Will and Vecna (who preys on people with pain in their lives). Historically it makes sense why Robin came out and Will is struggling to
Oh I agree with your experience of the 80's. That was absolutely what it was like in reality. But Stranger Things isn't a realistic show and not a realistic portrayal of the 80's. The issue with Will in season 4 was that the creators promised content IN that season which didn't occur, and I'm pretty sure he's going to come out in season 5. So the time period isn't a hinder to create a different and more on the nose representation. (which - like I argue for in the video - is important in this kind of major main stream media)
@@obviouslyqueer Stranger things still is set in the 80s, realistically, will would most likely find a partner in later decades
It’s also the difference between the characters. Robin is older and also has a ton of confidence. I also don’t think she is out out. She only told a character that she got really close to in an emotional scene as far as I remember/we know. Her story of how she was envious of Steve shows how she herself was having difficulty with her sexuality as well when she was younger. She’s not out and proud but she is sure in herself in knowing who she is now.
Will is younger, still trying to figure himself out, and doesn’t have that much confidence in who he is yet. He had a lot that happened to him since season 1 that would also hinder his ability for self exploration. Double whammy with the extra issues you mentioned for gay men and that explains why he is still yet to tell anyone and seems afraid of anyone knowing.
Still think it’s bs we didn’t get way more overt confirmation of Will’s sexuality. In something like a TV show you can make it where he still feels all that he feels but pretty much directly tell us.
I personally think it is endgame because mike and will show mutual attraction for eachother and there is so much to talk about for this topic, but I’m just gonna say that because.. yea
i would love to hear your thoughts on robin's storyline! generally, i feel like a lot of people like how she came out so i'd love to hear what you think about it!
We'll see if this makes sense in text but in short - I did enjoy Robins coming out! I think Robin in season three was a worked through character, she had a narrative purpose, lead the story forward and she was cool! And her being a lesbian was great!
And then came season 4, and they had completely changed her character. Her extreme personality-change between the season made no sense? In season 4 she was only in the way, the comic relief, poorly written and unimportant to the story.
When the Duffer Brothers wrote Robins script/character in season 3 she was straight and important to the show, and when they wrote her in season 4, as a lesbian - she was not. I feel like they were like "oh well she's gay now that's enough purpose for her to just be around, let's make her over quirky so at least there's that"
I feel her love story was extremely sloppy written, I know that it was put there for representation alone but for me I could feel no queer person had anything to do with that. There was no chemistry, nothing that made any sense, I know the fact that they were exactly the same was written as a joke and something that was supposed to be fun/cute but I just found it cringe.
So - like mention in the video I don't think it's Queerbaiting and I know people who still like Robin in season 4. So it's really my personal preferences here regarding the love interest.
But I dislike that they originally wrote Robin likable, straight, smart and important for the story. And when they changed her sexuality they also changed her personality - to annoying, in the way and unimportant for the story.
I think the change in robins character was mainly due to her being grouped with Steve, Nancy and Eddie in this season.
In s3, with Erica, Steve and Dustin, robin was written to be more of a smart and strong figure to balance the group. then in S4 with the groups dynamics changing, the writers felt like they needed a lighter and comic character in the group. Of course it could not be Nancy nor Eddie. Steve is a fan favorite so of course the wanted to be consistent with him. so they went with robin…
I didn’t like it and I don’t think it was necessary.. but at the same time I don’t think this shift in her personality is a direct consequence of her being written as a lesbian in contrast with her being written straight in s3, at least I hope so..
Of course your points and worries are totally valid! This is just my personal feelings after watching s4.
Regarding her love interest I 100% agree with you.. the adding of a boyfriend for Vicky was completely unnecessary, and the ending scene felt kinda off..
I hope I made myself clear, my English is kinda sloppy :(
@@nicole9928 your English is great! I get what you mean!
I don't think they consciously stopped caring for her when they made her gay. But the end product still reflect that. Regardless the writing of her character, the inconsistencies in personality, the lack of importance is sloppy. And it's boring that kind of sloppy writing is put on the gays!
@@obviouslyqueer I totally agree! I didn’t even give her a second thought this whole season bc she was written to be the overly clumsy ditzy character that was constantly tripping over her feet and just falling short of kissing Nancy’s feet as to though she were in the presence of the Queen. Also I don’t think the characters she was written around has anything to do with it bc why does everyone else get to be consistent regardless of their character grouping but she doesn’t?
The Duffers have said they're not introducing any new characters in S5, so either Will ends up with Mike or he ends up alone.
Meanwhile we have Mike making unhappy faces after limp-fish kissing Eleven in front of an open closet and tiny!photo!Mike putting his hand up in the corner when Mike asks El "Who said that I didn't?!" around 18 minutes and 30 seconds into S4E3. Mike is gay, and narratively speaking Byler is the only ship for Mike and Will that makes sense for the end.
I think it is important to remember that comfort with affection differs between men. Will is a very affectionate guy. Some of those scenes where Mike reacts distantly can easily be Mike just nonverbally expressing his boundaries. Since they've been apart, different boundaries would have arisen. Will being perhaps interested could play a factor. I mean, I remember years before I even came to terms with being gay, not understanding why boys I was infatuated with (wasn't even aware of the crush) put up walls. I didn't realize I was making them uncomfortable. I thought that was how to be a friend. Later on I realized it was really clingy behaviour. Though I'm aware I could just be projecting my own experiences onto the character rather than picking up on queercoding.
I think that's a reasonable analysis! I have never seen Will as clingy though, but i absolutely think Mike taking distance can be from him being uncomfortable. Either bc he doesn't know how to show affection, doesn't want to show affection or finds Wills affection - which he can't meet - uncomfortable. I like reading once one experiences into a work of fiction, it gives it a lot of extra personal value. So that's great you can do that with Stranger Things.
@@obviouslyqueer Yeah, clingy isn't the right term. You put it way more succinctly. Mike wasn't able to meet Will's level of affection. Platonic or otherwise.
The thing is that Mike doesn't seem aware of Will's feelings, at all. Also, I don't think Will is needy or comes across as overbearing when it comes to Mike. If anything, Mike is the one who relies the most on Will and is always sharing his fears and insecurities with him.
1) Mike isn’t aware of Will’s feelings or even sexuality so it would not make sense for him to not want to hug Will as a result. 2) Mike hugs his other friends without any issue (he literally hugged Dustin the ep before) and Will is his BEST friend. With will being the one who apparently has the romantic feelings, the awkwardness would make a lot more sense from HIS side, not MIKE’S.
@bel pop Mike did say to Will "it's not my fault you don't like girls" in S3. And he made sure to emphasize the "we are friends, WE are FRIENDS" line to him in that S4 argument. I think he kinda knows in a way that he's not sure how to react to yet, hence the initial awkwardness, but no way he's 100% unaware.
Some people are still to this day convinced Robin is straight and just wasn't into Steve so she lied to avoid hurting his feelings. It's not about the text of the work, it's about homophobia. Also people are convinced Chrissy was pregnant - it's also about a lack of brain cells to interpret anything on screen.
Well yes and no, people will always read into works of fiction things that are unreasonable and fit into their world view. But the text can make an active choice to make that homophobic read hard or even impossible. Stranger Things (with Wills story) makes it easy, which is a cowardly choice in my opinion
It's clearly queer-coding, Mike is definitely gay.
As a gay man born in the 80’s and had my young development in the 90’s gives a strange view of the show. I see the upside down as what people see as what people see deviant. Vecna is described almost exactly like Will, the upside down and the creatures in there seem oddly reminiscent of how I remember my family and others talked about gay culture and even further the the AIDS epidemic. I love this show, but I see many parallels between gay panic in the 90’s heard about in hushed tones. I honestly think Stranger Things is a gay allegory coming from a straight perspective who heard it when they didn’t know what was being said. Basically the Duffer brothers are telling a story they had heard in backhand and back room talk between adults about gay people that they didn’t even know was about gay people. I know it sounds convoluted, but it’s very accurate to what I remember in the 90’s of how adults talked about the 80’s concerning gay people. I even find Vecna being a prime example of the gay predator, snatching up a boy, finding things beautiful, becoming a monster when he is rejected by a girl who looks like a boy. The particles(hiv) in the upside down are molded to a gay man’s will, he’s active in trying to destroy everything because of how it destroyed him. I think it goes even farther. I love the show but seeing it gives me eerie memories of a story told from the 90’s about the 80’s from a straight person who grew up in the same time as me and is telling it second hand without knowing the context.
I’ve not seen anyone else with this interpretation. very interesting and obviously very well thought out!
Tbh my ideal outcome for Will is that he is just understood by his friends and they respect him. To me, I kinda hate the idea that Will needs to be with someone for him being gay in the show to be valid. Ik that the show is already unrealistic and I certainly would be more upset if they dismiss the queerness than if Mike and Will get together, but I think that having openly gay relationships at the time wouldn't be a great portrayal of the struggle. I think a scene of Will coming to terms with his sexuality (in a way that can't be misinterpreted) would make me happy.
I think they could have made a queer relationship work while still showing the struggle of the time (if that's what they wanna portray). If they would have given it the same screentime as Max/Lucas it could have been moving and "realistic". But I too think the most important ending for Will, with what we are given now, is him accepting himself. Seeing his differences as something positive, getting support and getting more screentime overall haha.
I have definitely experienced the "queer bubble" feeling with byler. I'm in a community of diehard byler shippers (on TikTok) and whenever I post of mine goes viral I get bombarded with comments about how mike and will are straight. most comments I get are homophobic or use homophobic rhetoric and I forget that most people, even though they act like allys, aren't actually open to queer rep. since being queer has stopped being "trendy", homophobia has become way more normalised and I feel like if stranger things 4 had come out in 2020 or 2021 the reaction to byler would be completely different.
I'm not great at reading queer subtext and I hadn't picked up on Will's sexuality from previous seasons despite it being clearly addressed a couple times. In season 4, I felt like almost every single one of Will's interactions was meant to reaffirm his interest for Mike, to the point where it almost seemed overdone, even to my oblivious eye. Obviously, some viewers will still deny it as long as they can, but to me there's a difference between making something abundantly clear without explicitly saying it, and just hinting at it through discreet subtext. There's definitely still an element of baiting in the way that Will's sexuality is used for marketing without being properly discussed by the writers and cast. On screen at least, I definitely preferred the representation we got from Will this season to Robin's. The question of queerbaiting is tricky in the end, because hiding of questionning one's sexuality rings true to a lot of queer people's experiences, but is also a convenient way to avoid offending homophobic viewers.
Agree with you on basically everything! It's a complex subject, and as you say there are people who identity with both Will and Robin, which is great, but that doesn't automatically mean that representation isn't made "for" heterosexuals. Thank you for your comment and thoughts!
I never picked up on Byler and was honestly surprised that they're hinting Will has feelings for Mike. Or not even hinting really, but loudly implying. I'm 100% happy with Will being gay, but disappointed that they're taking him the direction of tragically pining for a straight friend. That's how I interpreted it in canon anyway.
Sure, many of us who aren't straight have gone through that, but it's kind've traumatic to see that storyline pushed when the straight characters all have reciprocated relationships for the most part. But the gay character has to suffer of course.
Even Robin suffered that way through most of season 4 until the very end. It left me with very mixed feelings about the show and unsure if I'll continue watching.
I agree with you completely. I'm glad Will is gay and they could have made a storyline about him figuring that out, having struggles with it, being afraid of coming out, made a point about how it was in the eightes. But the choice of making him pine for his straight friend is just soooo boring.
I don’t really like that the Duffers made being gay basically Will’s entire personality in season four but I relate to him as a character in many ways even more so with that. He’s one of my favorite characters but I feel like they only made the fact that he was gay so pronounced yet never addressed a thing to draw queer viewers kinda like how they made Robin being a quirky lesbian her only personality trait in the same season. I think season four was a good season with bad representation. I love the show but there were so many better ways they could have done this.
100%, that's a another dimension to how poorly Will was written in this season, his whole personality was "pining over Mike". Which is such a shame bc he's such a great character with so much potential
He is, they could have done a lot with his character this season but they just kinda shoved it to the side. I feel like they probably could have kept the aspect of Will loving Mike and had him be a bigger part of the plot had they not layered it on so thick and given the California gang a bit more screen time which they also could have done given the fact that they weren’t exactly going for short play times. Season four definitely wasn’t a terrible season but it’s also definitely not my favorite.
I agree with so many of your points here. Even though I enjoyed the latest season and even found the scenes with Will quite moving, the fact is that it's regressive in terms of queer/gay representation. I suppose the excuse could be that it's historical and therefore it was very common for boys like Will to have had such an experience in the '80s. I was the same age as him in 1985 and my situation as a gay male was even worse frankly. I had two brothers and they were more likely to join in in mocking me for seeming "too gay" rather than telling me they'd love me no matter what.
I found it interesting that you said Eddie was queer-coded. I have to be honest: I didn't see that at all. In retrospect, yeah, he didn't have a girlfriend and betrayed no particular sexual interest in girls, but he is definitely not at all an American '80s archetype that would have been viewed as gay or queer at the time, not in my mind, anyway.
On the other hand, Henry Creel IMO is totally queer-coded, almost a prime example. He's a boy who feels different from everyone else, an outsider trying to resolve his feelings of differentness, and not feeling acceptance from his parents and peers chooses to act out in negative ways as a result, offering a dark mirror of Will's character arc. Furthermore, his initial appearance as an adult before Elle is a particular 80s queer character archetype. Slightly effeminate, poofy, permed hair, slightly effete mannerisms and voice, a kind of prim, properness about him, and in particular, the way he says, "My, we are a little sleepy head this morning!" has an especially effeminate tone that I think evokes a lot of gay men from that time period. Sweet gay men, the kind that were always making every effort to please but were typically rejected for their effeminancy, a Mr. Rogers type. (Yes, I know Mr. Rogers almost certainly wasn't gay.) This seemed to me to be an effort to sell him as a nice guy initially as a means of throwing the audience off track and yet still maintaining truth to his character beats.
The realization at the end that Will can still sense the Upside Down, which we now know emanates from Vecna/Creel, not from the Mind Flayer as previously thought, hints that there is a connection between the two characters to be explored in season 5. As I said, I think Vecna and Will are possibly mirrors of each other, even as Vecna and Elle are through their powers.
Thank you so much for your comment and your thoughts!
I strongly believe the show could - if that's what they are going for - have been faithful to the struggles of the 80's and still have portrayed Wills story in a better way. It would just have taken a little more work.
That's really interesting with Vecna/Henry. I absolutely see it now when you mention it. Thank you for sharing that analyse!
I think with Eddie, different from Henry, he's not so much playing with the gay "ideals" of the 80's but with gay ideals of today.
His - as you mentioned - lack of girlfriend and seeming lack of interest in dating, his otherness/freakyness and him being the mentor of other freaks, collecting a found family/house of misfits, his dramatic and emotional way of expressing himself, his flirtatious and unmasculine way of speaking with Steve, to mention some of things. But overall, like a gut feeling that he had a queer way of being.
The parallels/connection between Vecna and Will is going to be really interesting to follow. I enjoyed this season and I look forward to what they are going to do with everything in season 5. I'm not trusting everything the Duffer Brothers say but it sounds like Will is going to have a bigger role in the last season compared to this one.
Just a comment on Eddie's queerness:
Various replies from Joseph Quinn when he's been asked to comment on - respectively - the HellCheer & Steddie ships, have implied that while nothing was written expressly by the Duffers about Eddie's sexuality one way or the other, the way he ended up playing it was essentially bisexual-coded.
Filming the first episode (with Vol 2 scripts not finished & him having no real idea Eddie & Steve would even end up becoming friends through the latter half of the season) he definitely viewed his character as kinda bashfully crushing on Chrissy less having anything to do with her gender & moreso upon realising "the Queen of Hawkins High" was actually a super-shy sweetheart.
The playfully flirting with Steve toward the end of the season was ad-lib on his part. That it was in part teasing Steve because Eddie was comfortable enough with their new friendship that he *could* tease in that way without worrying about the "popular jock reformed bully" beating him up, but also that if Steve had been curious enough to follow up on it Eddie probably wouldn't have turned Steve down 😜
Essentially the way that felt most natural to him playing the character was that Eddie's "type" was primarily attracted to people turning out to have a *legitimately nice personality*, with the added bonus of being good looking but not particularly bothered by whether that "good looking" was masculine or feminine. Basically, once Eddie found out Chrissy the head cheerleader wasn't a b!t¢h & Steve "The Hair" Harrington wasn't a douche, he probably wouldn't - as my grandmother would have said - "kick [either of them] out of bed for eating crackers" if given the opportunity 😂
And when you take into account that his character's introduction came in the form of a full-tilt rant against conformity to society's labels? I actually think that was a pretty valid take for him to apply to Eddie's sexuality as well 😁
Very interesting point of view, how did JQ manifest that? I'd love to see/read it.@@elizabethclairewolfrosenda3391
after reading one of your replies about robin, I have to agree with you about her being.. questionable representation tbh. I loved her in season three so much. thank goodness maya hawke improvised her being a lesbian. she was an amazing character and very relatable to me with her calm cynical personality and sarcastic sense of humor. her confidence stood out and she was just so lovable. the way they wrote her character in season four made me so mad tho. not at her or maya, never at them. but her complete personality change and her constantly being nervous and over the top scared was so not it.. like what happened to the robin that survived a car accident, getting kidnapped and tortured and drugged, getting stuck in a freefalling elevator, and being friends with the trainwreck that is steve harrington?? you're gonna sit here and tell me that season three robin and season four robin are the same people?? no. them making her a nervous wreck and poorly written comedic relief character pissed me off so much because she deserves better than that. like what the fuck. give me the old robin back. and her romantic interest options are WAYY too limited. I like rovickie but giving robin a gf that's just like her???? come on now. their chemistry better be good next season. and don't get me started on ronance. please no ronance ever. nancy quite literally is judgemental of robin and doesn't like her for who she is and they're barely friends, how tf can they be LOVE INTERESTS???? ronance is not a good pairing romantically or even platonically. oh and season three robin would've burned nancy alive. speaking of season three robin PLEASE GIVE HER BACK TO US SHE WAS SO MUCH BETTER THAN IN THIS SEASON IN EVERY WAY!!!!
AGREE!! I want the old Robin back too! She was so cool and nice and well portrayed! I'm... Intrigued to see what they to with her and her last minute love interest in the last season. Like, are they even gonna be in it 😬 I have low expectations.
Great video, I agree with most of your points. However, I would have loved to see you talking about Mike and Will's relationship overall, how different it is portrayed from the other friend groups/pairings in the show, even since S1 and the way that plays out into the "queer-baiting" on Vol 2. But that may need a separate video, maybe?
Thank you so much!
That would be a super interesting video! but I'll leave that task to someone who would do it justice, I'm not a Byler shipper bc I'm not a huge fan of Mike as a character so the video would be sceptical haha. As you could tell from the video I'll die for Will though haha.
Maybe you know this by now, but Eddie Munson wore a black handkerchief in his back pocket, which makes your theory even more plausible.
Omg I didn't know that/see that! Thank you that's interesting for sure 👀
I hate the show so much for my baby Will so I watch it illegally just to fight homophobia
You are my hero 💘
This was a really good video. I totally agree with you on everything you said. At this point I just want Will to be explicitly gay to piss off all the homophobes. I’m really interested in your thoughts on Robin’s character and relationship handled in season 4 and would love to watch a video of yours on that topic :)
Thank you so much! Haha yeah exactly, rub it in their faces!! I'm quite excited/scared to see how they treat Robin and her love interest in season 4. I have low expectations unfortunately.
Someone should send this video to the whole cast and the duffer brothers. You explained this amazingly
Thank you so much 🙏
Great video!! You definitely raised a lot of solid points and earned a new subscriber
Hello and thank you! That makes me glad, welcome! 😊
I don't think gay representation needs to always be in the form a fruitfull passionate relationship between two characters, because not every gay person has been in a relationship and can relate to that, but every gay person can relate to struggling with their sexuality and possibly even having a hopeless chush on a straight friend. Now, I agree that it's bad representation in the sense that it doesn't really provide a lot of visibility, since we have people still denying it, but I feel like it is great representation in the sense that is provides gay people a way to seeing themselves on screen. I can personally relate to Will more than any other gay character that I've ever seen in any show or movie, and I wish they showed this side of "being gay" more often. I think the same about Robin, and in this case it's better because her sexuality was actually explicitly stated, which makes it better for visibility. Just because a gay character doesn't end up with the person they long for doesn't mean it's bad representation, specially in a show like Stranger Things where most relationship, even the straight ones, are constantly going though strained and awkward situations.
Agree with you 100%. I don't think the best outcome for Will nor his representation is him ending up with Mike OR someone else. A happy relationship isn't always the end goal and for Will, no. I wanna see him accept HIMSELF, and with that (hopefully) be accepted and have support from friends and family. I like that he's struggling and I can see why a lot of queer people identify with that, what I think is off is that Will ONLY suffers, while the other characters have much more moments of joy. He got his scene with Jonathan, which was a really beautiful scene, but like mentioned - the visibility would have needed to be on the nose (like the marketing promised) to show what that acceptance actually was about.
@@obviouslyqueer I completely agree. A happy relationship isn't always the end goal, but in this case, all the characters are able to have romantic relationships and to not give Will the same treatment is borderline cruel and, dare I say, possibly homophobic?
@@StrawberryBlond21 I think a lot of the choices regarding Wills character/ storyline is - as mention in the video - too keep homosexual and homophobic viewers. Not having him come out and not showing gay happiness are choices based on the comfort level of heterosexuals for sure. I really hoped he would get a lovestory in season 4 (that wasn't unrequited pining for his best friend). But now, based on what we have, I instead hope for him to find acceptence for himself
@@StrawberryBlond21 agree with this. Will being the only one in the party without a love interest, coincidentally the only queer boy, doesn’t sit right at all. It’s made to cater to homophobes and I’m tired of people with a huge platform to actually make a difference to keep catering to a minority of bigoted viewers.
@@belpop ?
My friend who lives in a heavily christen household was watching the sandwich scene with Robin and Vickie and made her fucking fast forward cause “I don’t wanna see this all this gay stuff” so apparently the barely visible homosexuality still ain’t watered down enough😐
That's so sad. Like it's soo sanitized, and still homophobes dislike it. So honestly I would prefer for the writers to pick a side. Cause pleasing both means pleasing none
Great video :)!!! I agree with basically all your points ahha. One thing I would add though, that I think is relevant, is that all the kids are so young that it makes sense that they don't ALL end up with a possible romantic partner very soon. I know that the question "Why do they choose Will specifically to have trouble in the love department?" can be answered with "It's a safe choice, so they don't lose the views from the homophobes before the 5th season". And this makes sense to me. But I also think it makes sense to have his character be the one who has the most trouble in the love department and who needs more time than the others to first accept himself. Not just because of his sexuality but because of all his personality. I would say his being very closed off comes from a variety of factors (not having a dad, various traumatic experiences, being bullied, feelings of resentments towards his friends who are kinda leaving him behind, etc) and so it makes sense to me that he needs time since they are all super young (or at least they are supposed to be super young ahha). But I get that it could be made more obvious and he could have gotten more happy moments related to queerness in this season. Maybe he could have listened to Robin and had a talk with her for example. I really hope next season makes up for the lost occasions and gives us what we crave for (which is some joy even for Will 🌞 come on!!)
Thank you! And thanks for you comment! I could have talked clearer about that in the video but I do NOT think a relationship or romance necessary is what I want for Will. That's one way sure, but what I found missing was the confirmation, I'm upset over the safe choices. They could've openly portrayed him struggling with identity and sexuality in a realistic way for the eightes - if that's the story they wanted to tell. He could see and react to the aids pandemic for example, he could have come out and be accepted by El or his Mum or Mike (instead of that being a boring unrequited love interest) or as you say - had a heart to heart with Robin! About queerness in the 80's! Wouldn't that be so easy to add, positive, cool, modern and brave for them.
@@obviouslyqueer yes i also thought about him maybe reacting to the news on tv and/or to his parents opinions on the matter
22:56 i don't think Mike was uncomfortable with Will staring at him but more so embarrassed that Will caught him staring at him. Mike wanted to stare at Will too lol
I think that's because what she said in the video, Mike knows Will wants more from him but unsure why he said "we're friends" as will was expecting more communication with him. And its the 80s Mike probably won't even assume Wills orientation.
I think Mike is realising something though, but I definitely don't think Mike feels the same
This was an amazing video!! I look forward to more :)
Thank you so much! That means a lot 😊
Awesome content, presented very clearly. Great job!
this is such a great video essay!
Apparently they did think about making Luca and Alberto gay but you know how Disney is about this.
Yeah really?! Well I had really strong hunch something like that was going on.
wonderful video! looking forward to more vids from you hopefully, 😊 I also found your "what I dislike about booktube" video really encouraging.
Thank you a lot! That makes me so happy!
I enjoyed this discussion! Great work
Thank you so much 🥰✨
Excuse you, Noah DID NOT QUEER BAIT when he said that he ships Byler + he is part of LGBTQ+. This is why you SHOULD NOT jump into conclusion so quickly! (Time stamp: 16:00 )
Like he is like any other Byler shipper, HEAR ME OUT! There were people who didn't quite ship Byler till ss4. You miss ma'am are really rude to just say Noah queer bated.
I mean, how are you so sure about it are they being genuine or not. I swear but if a gay cast said the same shit about how they ship a straight couple, you would act as if it was NorMaL
Yup.
'Cause he *has* - as the actor - in interviews 100% confirmed Will's queerness as well as his own IRL (though I'll grant that it's possible that this video might predate his announcement of being gay himself).
If I'm not mistaken, when Noah came out publicly as gay didn't he openly say that portraying Will's journey to try to understand & accept his sexuality was a huge contributor to his own confidence & comfort with finally coming out to his cast mates?
I think Noah interacts and even ships Byler because he has almost nothing to work with and all the scenes his character has are with or related to Mike
Yeah 100%!
It was quite educational. I dropped Stranger Things in the beginning of season 4, due to unexpected introduction of giant spiders - so I missed most of the heavily discussed parts.
And yes, if queerness is more present in advertising than in the actual thing, it IS queerbaiting. (perfect example is trailers for 3rd season of Sherlock - where montage makes the characters look like they confess love to each other)
I really like to imagine that, in the end, Byler is really going to happen. It's something I would consider endearing, mainly because I love childhood best friend for lovers stories; but it's not realistic, and I know it very well. I'm in the part of the fandom that loves this ship, and, like you said, it's pretty easy to believe this is endgame sometimes.
But Stranger Things is a global hit series, with two cishet brothers (who have never spoken out about the queer community) as creators. They won't gain anything from a gay couple and, as long as the world is mostly homophobic (and it is, even though the queer community is making its place), they won't do anything about it. They won't make Byler endgame if it doesn't make some positive economic difference for them. The main fanbase of the series is not the community. And, as much as I think the ending will hardly be rewarding (there are two options, both of which don't let the gay character have a happy ending: Will sacrifices himself or Will lives on and is rejected by his best friend), it's probably the ending that we will have.
I still like to have hope and optimism, so I like to think that Byler has some chance of happening. And, to tell you the truth, it actually does; it is only minimal and almost non-existent. (It's exactly because that chance wasn't destroyed in Season 4, with Will still liking Make, that gay people won't give up on believing this. The community is persistent, and it needs greater representation, so it makes sense for people to believe this faithfully.)
PS: I still find it extremely sad that they will probably not end up together and that we will only receive exactly what we expected: nothing.
As sad as it is, I do think ( to keep yourself from being played and screwed over) you have to take in account - just as you say - that the creators will gain nothing from making Byler happen in season 5. It's easy to be all wrapped up in Byler but as you say thats a small minority of the fans, and it would piss people off. It's really sad, but it's true.
I'm keeping my hopes quite low, I just hope Will in some way get's to be 1. explicitly queer, 2. get a storyline/screentime that's not ONLY about that and 3. in some way gets to be happy.
Maybe we get all three but I'm excepting maybe two of them haha.
And since mike is cluesles and he cant understand so he still has a crush on will and byler might going to be canon in 5 seasn
I don’t care much for byler as a ship but I think the duffels made some really weird choices regarding will and mike’s relationship that would only be redeemed by actually going for the gay option…do I think they will? Most probably not, but I hope they’ll at least do something about will’s arc because the way queer character are written is pretty abysmal for a 2022 series
I don't think it's queer baiting lol it's not even the end of the series to make that conclusion yet. I think people need to calm down and wait before making any conclusions.
I think Robin's storyline is underwhelming as she was given minimum screen time with her love interest, and her love interest does barely have any personality, which will hopefully improved. Will was planned to be gay from the start as we know this from the way he is described in his character pitch and the way he was said to face homophobic abuse and bullying. However, when it comes to Byler, it is in no realm of possibility. I am saying this as someone who used to be in Byler community during S3. But it is very clear to me where the writers are going for with the narrative, there is next to zero chance that Mike and El would break up. I think many fans are setting themselves up for a disappointment and many of the stuff that they show as 'proofs' are actually reaches, because some people just want to see Byler going canon, so they do make up a whole new narrative.
To me it is very obvious that they chose a very easy route with Will's sexuality and they're planning him to accept himself and come out to his loved ones, but that's it. We are lucky if he's given a last minute love interest, heck, it is even doubtful if Robin and Vickie will ever receive more screentime or a kiss. I wish people would be more realistic while judging something or talking about a show... so far there is nothing to suggest in the narrative that Byler is going to be canon. I would be happy if it did in the next season but it is too late into the game now.
very late but had a few thoughts! (overall enjoyed this video a lot and agreed with most of your points even beforehand!)
i really wish we got to see more of will in general in the series. he has some of the lowest amounts of screen time in the main cast. he's my favorite character in the show (very easy for me to relate to him for multiple reasons), and him being sidelined and used for the "plot" of his sexuality is extremely frustrating-- especially when he's actually important to the non-relationship, supernatural plot points in the show (which is, of course, the stuff i like best in the show).
i'm kind of 50/50 on whether the duffers will go forward with byler. why portray mike and el's relationship as fragile while also showing that will loves mike in the way that mike wants to be loved? i guess we'll just have to wait and see. (but yeah, the writing is very Not Great.)
18:27 “Friends don’t die”😂
I’ve talked to so many people that didn’t pick up on how queer Hannibal was and I have no idea what they watched lmao
I wasn’t aware of the marketing for ST at all, but I continue to think their rep blows. Totally right about it all. That’s wild about all those articles. Vol 2 didn’t do anything? I mean what his arc is he cried?
What a fantastic video, as usual! Great breakdown.
A lot of straight people really do have their special straight glasses on at all times. It's like watching different media!
Haha yeah is resolution and arc is that he got to cry a bunch! Congratulations Will!
Thank you so much! Really, thanks a lot!
[Vol 2 spoilers] It's obvious that the entirety of S4 vol 2 is setting up for S5. This means Will and all the other characters are going to be continuing the arcs that they started in those final 2 episodes- Dustin's personality will likely change due to Eddie's death and maybe Lucas' after nearly losing Max. The Duffer brothers even stated that Will is going to be a major player in the final season, so it's too early to think that Will's emotional moments were there for no reason, they were likely there to show that Vecna can use his insecurities to manipulate him.
@@beccazach oh I am also sure that Will will have a more predominate roll and maybe finally actually come out even, but it’s been 4 years of the only queer characters pining unrequited for people or just having terrible things happen to them over and over and over, in the case of Will. And to say that well it’s the 80s and that’s how things were in a fantasy show is just dumb, you know? We’re trying to be true to some queer stories in the past but allllso we have creatures from other worlds and and Russians under malls. You have creative ownership of the entirety of the fiction, not just one aspect. So I find the rep overall quite lacking.
@@SpringboardThought Well I mean, this isn't Heartstopper where the whole draw of the show is an LGBTQ+ relationship. And the queer/queer-coded characters in this show aren't the only ones going through bad things, everyone is, bc it's a supernatural show about an alternate dimension that's affecting the real world so no one's safe. They added Robin's sexuality to not only show a new type of character, but also show what type of person Steve is when he was super accepting of her during a time when not as many people would've been. I'm all for representation but I don't think the show has done anything wrong with Will's sexuality by not having him explicitly say anything (yet). He's always cared a lot about his friends, and I think he's too good of a person to not want to split up El and Mike's relationship if he truly has a crush on Mike.
@@beccazach well, that’s true, I’m not saying the show is bad because it has bad representation, I’m saying that the rep is bad and it’s not a draw for the show, and the efforts at inclusion are perfunctory. So wherever else Will’s story goes next, he’s the only kid who is gay, not expressly so yet, really, and who is the only one with like express ptsd and trauma and hasn’t really reclaimed any agency yet, imo.
I also don’t Will is worried about breaking the couple up, he’s probably more worried about his best friend reacting poorly to his coming out, especially with feelings specific to him, both sexual and romantic, presumably.
To add to the topic of the accusation of "Stranger Things" queerbaiting, obviously the show isn't. As you can tell from the setting and time the series is taking place in a rural Indiana set in the 80's. As to many who has been born in the 80's going through an identity development as to finding yourself a part of the LGBTQ community, you'd find yourself not expressing much of who you are because at the time in the 80's, you had people being neglected, beaten, or abandoned because of how they've identified themselves. Especially since at the time there weren't many LGBTQ role models and/or many people were closeted...
Many people bring up the 80's aspect, a lot more than I thought would which is why I don't mention it in the video. I would accept that as an argument against the Queerbaiting of ST if the show was 1. Realistic and 2. Didn't market it the way they did. Also I'm pretty sure (based on comments from actors and creators) that Will IS going to come out in season 5. So the show being set in the 80's isn't the real problem. As mention in the video I strongly believe it's a choice made to keep the heterosexuals comfortable. If queers can relate to that, great! But I think you give credit where credit isn't due if you think that's an active artistic choice.
(My personal opinion) I really think that calling byler queerbating when the show isn’t even over yet is a little over the top. Will is pretty much already confirmed so no reason to call that queerbating . And we still have one more season to see what happens with mike and to see if he returns those feelings so I don’t think it’s valid to call it queerbating when we don’t actually know how the story ends yet.
I think both mileven and byler have an equal chance ,of course mileven has been a big part of the show,but so has a lot of possibly queer subtext and small hints revolving around mike. I loved the way will’s story was crafted in season 4 . We have will struggling with his identity is volume one and feeling like nobody understands him. In volume 2 there is his talk with Jonathan at surfer boy pizza. That conversation was very important to will. He thought he was a mistake and that nobody would accept him but Jonathan shows him the acceptance he needed. One of my little theories is from mikes love confession to el. Although I do think elements of his speech were truthful I don’t think all of it was as mike describes that his life began when he found el in the same way he described meeting will as “the best thing he had ever done” and the duffers reffering to this in the way they did feels worthy of being questioned. Mike is a very complex character yet we have barely seen the story from his perspective so I think season 5 will finally reveal what Mike has been feeling (wether that is feelings for will or not). Idk I mean that’s just my theory and this vid was 10 months ago so your opinions may have changed but for me byler just makes more sense and if it’s endgame it will hands down go as the best writing for a closeted queer character .
yk they can just potray will as having a crush on mike right it doesnt need to lead to anything... it happens in straight couples all the time so why not gay couples too?
Of course they can, but that doesn't happen in this show. This is my issue: why are all the main characters in Stranger Things able to fall in love and have those feelings leading to romantic relationships, but when it comes to Will, he gets nothing? Why have one of the main characters (a gay character at that, who has suffered repeatedly) fall in love with his best friend since S1, build that up and not do anything positive about it? They could have introduced a love interest to Will in S3 or S4 (they could still do it on S5, but I don't know) and give him happiness... But they decided to take the "gay-kid-in-love-with-his-best-friend" route, when there is not explicit guarantee that Mike will reciprocate those feelings. That is just downright cruel.
@@StrawberryBlond21 I feel like Mike would not be the ideal choice of boyfriend for Will bc he's so selfish and really doesnt think of Will at all anymore. I think it would be really interesting for the plot and good for Will's character development if he had a scene where Mike became somehow aware of Will's feelings for him, they kiss or almost kiss like once but then mike breaks his heart, they never speak of it again but then Will finds a much better and more thoughtful guy who will truly be.a great boyfriend for him. Its far more realistic since, lets be honest, when does the first queer relationship (and especially one where the love interest is already in a straight relationship beforehand) ever work out? These are just my thoughts as a queer person myself
@@katten_ i do want Will To get a real love interest though that will treat him the way he deserves
I would love that for him. Before season 4 I really hoped that we would head there, we did not, and since I don't think Byler is going to happen I have a hard time seeing how they would fit that into season 5. So I'm just rooting for self-acceptence at this time ✊❤️🏳️🌈
mikes entire personality in the first episode of s4(before he goes to california) is him going back to his roots with dnd and learning not to conform to societal expectations. and then when he goes to california to see el and will, he literally bought his clothes at the airport to change himself (confirmed by costume designer) and mask his feelings. el and mikes relationship is built on lies and making out. they know nothing important about each other and are clearly written to be unhealthy.
also, els entire arc and character is about learning independence, and i don’t think she could be truly happy and independent with mike. even after he said he loves her, she ignored him back in hawkins. if he finally said what she’s been wanting him to say why would she do that? she understands he doesn’t love her.
i genuinely can’t think of a single heart to heart about their lives and feelings, while there are so many of them between mike and will.
years before i realized i was queer and started shipping byler, i HATED s3 mileven so much and thought it was so gross how it was portrayed. how sitcom like their breakup was and right after the devastating rain scene between mike and will?? they obviously can and have made the show insanely emotional and i don’t get why they didn’t make mike care about that breakup.
they lied to each other and had an extremely unhealthy attachment and closed off everyone around them. it was gross.
at the end of s3, when el tells mike she loves him too, the kiss is so awkward. his eyes are open, hands to his side, not kissing back at all. the closet is open and as she walks away he looks VISIBLY uncomfortable.
with his bedroom in s4, it’s important to note that the one way sign into the closet could easily be queer coding. they MADE the sets with clear intentions and references. the duffers are extremely detail oriented with everything, including the lighting. they’ve confirmed that lighting is something to look for in analyzation, and in the final byler scene of the show, will is BASKED in sunlight while mike is in the dark. and in the van scene, its the same.
with the rockie/byler love triangle parallel, they have the camera focused on who in the scenes emotions are important. robin is focused on with it, and mike and el are focused on. because will does not care. he’s just happy to have his sister back. but when mike looks back at el and looks at will then back at el, his face drops and he becomes sad/worried. finn wolfhard is extremely expressive and i’ve watched most of his films, his facial expressions are intentional and have meaning.
i apologize for the deep dive that you’ll probably never see, i’m autistic and stranger things is one of my biggest special interests and byler is my favorite thing to analyze for all of it. mike is misunderstood and i love him but i need something to explain why he’s such a bad boyfriend because people get mad at me when he’s my second favorite character🤐🤐also will is up there in my favorites and he deserves all the happiness in the world (after my man hopper love him🫶)
Its okay buddy 🩷🫂
I have a few points for thus and I'm just pointing out why mileven is endgame based on Mike's behaviour alone. Byler is apparently based on hints and small details, well, apart from Mike telling El he loves her. I have so many small subtle details to prove Mike has always loved her.
- In season 1, Mike initiates the first kiss, he kisses Eleven first, eleven doesn't even know what a kiss is.
- He calls her pretty when he puts makeup on her. If you notice, Dustin and Lucas are standing behind Mike. Mike quietly blurts it out, but enough to the others hear. This absolutely isn't a lie or platonic because Mike is totally obsessed with her image there and that he accidently tells what he's feeling out loud and is later embarrassed when others hear. When he invites El to live with his family, he makes it very clear that he wouldn't be considered her "brother" because he's clearly starting to fall for her. If this were platonic, he would agree to being her brother. Again, it's just Mike and El, I can't stress enough that if it were platonic, Mike would absolutely make sure others know this, but he doesn't because it's just them and not platonic.
- In season 2, Mike calls Eleven every day for a year 353 days, every night on the radio hoping she'll pick up. He does this when no one is around. Season 2 can be called the "byler" season and yes that's true, however this isn't defending Mike's behaviour but he doesn't acknowledge Will when El is around and if he knew she was alive in 2 I think it would be a different story. He breaks down to Hopper when he realises she's always been there and Hop kept them apart for safety. He's the most emotional he's ever been, and this is just for El.
-Season 3 as the group is in the field early on, it is, in fact, Mike, who tells the group we need to leave "curfew." it isn't Eleven. Mike left to spend alone time with El. Him alone completely prompted him to leave. Not el. Also, he attempts to tell Eleven he loves her but can't find the words, that is also when they're alone together. If that were platonic, I'm sure Mike wouldn't make an effort to leave with her and as well as an attempt to say I love you. When el at the end tells Mike I love you too, before she does he downplays it "oh what did I say again that was so long ago" he's saying this as to not be embarrassed El hasn't told him she loves him yet.
-Season 4, El had mentioned in her letter, "I miss all the spring flowers" back in Hawkins. Mike arrived at the airport, had picked her the wild flowers because she said so in the letter, again, why do this platoncially? Just don't bother if that were the case. He bring her eggos as they're getting cold. He chases El when she's taken away. He explains to El the reasons he could never say I love, and then tells her he loves her.
Finally, another small detail to add is that when Mike is reunited with the group and hugs Hopper, he tells him he shrunk. This is probably the only time we see Mike somewhat happy and relaxed. As he's finally told El, he loves her. He's calm and at ease. But before all of that, he's a nervous wreck and on edge until he locates her. But the second he finds her, he's completely at ease.
I have no problem fans shipping byler but Mike's behaviour alone should show the logical sense that he absolutely loves El. Not even the evidence the duffers have shown with them, but the small behaviour that is initiated by Mike alone.
Everything I've pointed out is all Mike's behaviour, not El.
But I respect your stance
I think it’s possible that other people than the (straight) duffers on the production team have a say and would be more conscious of queer subtext. I feel like it’s way more likely for byler to be real if some of the stranger things writers are queer. However if few or no people high up in production are queer, I have little hope for byler’s existence.
This is the best breakdown of this issue that I have seen. I agree that marketing and PR having been queerbaiting, that there's been bad queercoding in the text, and no queerbaiting in the text. And I am someone that rode along for the insanity that was Johnlock, but I don't see anything here that suggest that Mike and Will are going to end up together. I hope that Will gets to come out authentically and get some goddamn therapy, and a caring mature boyfriend (not Mike) who can help support him as he heals. Great work, I really enjoyed it! Kudos & Cheers!!
Thank you!!!
To be completely fair, Byler could, or could not be endgame. It could be queer baiting, or it could not be, we really have to wait for season 5
Note that the historical intro only applies to USA mainstream cinema. Europe was very different.
Even if you are heterosexual, I don't understand how someone can see s4 pt1 and say that Will is not gay. The beginning was a letter from Eleven to Mike and she says I think he likes someone and the painting is related to that someone, Will gives Mike the painting. Also the gazes he gives to Mike, and why would he get so emotional about supposedly El's feelings about Mike when he is explaining his painting?
I just wanna say i dont think its absolutely necessary to have characters explicitly say theyre gay for them to be canonically gay i mean robin is a great example of this bc the words gay and lesbian have never been used in reference to her n yet we are all able to understand that she is a lesbian regardless n while i wouldnt mind for wills sexuality to be made more explicit i do also think media illiteracy plays a major role in so many ppl missing that hes gay bc literally none of the straight ppl i talked to abt this missed that fact they all picked up what was being put down but unlike these ppl theyre socially aware n have media literacy n this isnt even the first time this has happened since apparently theres a bunch of ppl who watched it ch2 n didnt realize that richies gay idk what they thought his "dirty little secret" was but they sure as hell didnt connect it with his previous scene where hes glancing longingly at boy and focusing so much on their casual touch and trying to convince him to keep playing w him before getting called the f slur (literally how much more clear can it get 🙄)
Please don't kill my hope I don't want to be rational about Byler
The way you stood up for Tumblr as a place where legit queer conversations are taking place - I do that all the time with TikTok and neurodivergence 😂😂
Tumblr needs a new hashtag, #givewilabreak, that poor boy has been through so much. Come it just so happens that after a whole season of wanting to play DnD the Duffers decide to make to gang all about right after he leaves, don't even mention the haircut.
18:29 what the hell is that clip from
Thank you for making this video! I learned a lot. Great work here! If you don’t mind me asking a question on this?
Reading your comment, about the discussion about people saying Will won't come out explicitly because he is young and it's the 80s. You said "There are so many ways they could have clarified it while still being true to the time, if that's something they wanna do." What are examples of this? In a latter comment you mentioned "He could see and react to the aids pandemic for example" Would this be considered explicit though? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but this doesn't seem much more explicit than him having made a project on Alan Turing.
And then you mentioned “he could have come out and be accepted by El or his Mum or Mike (instead of that being a boring unrequited love interest) or as you say - had a heart to heart with Robin! About queerness in the 80's!”. This would obviously be explicit, but wouldn’t that be essentially him coming out directly? Something people claim would be difficult for a child to do in the 80s?
Just curious what your thoughts on all of this be?
Hi and thank you so much for your comment! It made me very glad that you enjoyed it.
You can of course ask a question. We'll see if I make sense.
Regarding the first question - I think The Alan Turning thing was very discreet, not many people noticed his plank at all or even if they did - knew Alan was gay. With the pandemic they could have made him take a flyer for a meet up, made him spy on a demonstration, or even better - go to a lgbtq- meeting (maybe turning around last second but still trying to do it). They could have made Will reasearch homosexuality at a library, draw something explicitly gay (not sexual, just romantic or a prideflag), stuff like that.
And I get what you mean with him coming out would be directly. I just think what a lot of people mean (or should mean) when they say "people didnt come out in the 80's" is "less people lived openly." but A LOT of peopla came out to their family, or a close friend, or other gay people. But wasn't open openly at work, school or a bigger friend group.
I agree that it would be "wierd for the time" if Will made a spectacle - came out at school etc, which is what I feel people sometimes think is what we mean? When I say he could come out to Robin or his mum, its because that wouldn't be strange for the eightes. Coming out to EVERYONE sure, but no one is asking that.
Does that answer your question?
Again, thank you so much for your lovely comment!
@@obviouslyqueer Hello, thank you so much for the detailed question! All the examples you made, does make perfect sense. I really appreciate the time you took to give me a detailed answer!
I'm constantly flip flopping if I think the writers will give Will a good ending, or what they think is a good ending for him. So hope it turns out well.
Thanks again for this video and detailed explanation!
I remember the fuss around Le Fou in Beauty and the Beast and I was so confused when I watched it because there was nothing explicit about him liking guys
That whole thing was a shit show haha
I think people say “Byler endgame” is for people to ship(like me) mike and will knowing that they probably won’t get together so I guess we are almost convincing ourselves in like a comfort ship
I get that! I really understand Byler as a ship, I think they have good potential and I can see why they are fun to ship!
there was a tad bit of byler in s4 though lmao
the fact that they made Will have a crush on his best friend to not show gay scenes is just DISGUSTING. Because we LGBTs know that Mike doesn't like Will, the homophobes know, EVERYONE KNOWS THEY WON'T STAY TOGETHER! and I honestly don't want them to be together because it gives me a headache just imagining shocked straight viewers.
I agree, I wish they didn't give will his love interest to be his bestfriend, because we do know they won't be together because it seems clear mike doesn't feel the same way as will
- I know byler will argue it and I appreciate byler but I absolutely know it won't be canon.
- I think they've made rhe wrong choice on it being mike as they've caused wars within the fandom, on people assuming mike is gay just because will loves him but its not true sadly.
- definitely wrong choice with mike because we know he wants el, and will has to just be heartbroken
I don’t know if you have saw a series that is called Eyewitness but a lot of things that happen between the protagonists is very similar to Mike and Will relationship. A lot of the byler shoppers and conspiranoics are basing on it.
Your video has made me less sure of Byler, but I still believe it could be possible. It would be great and a lot better than Robin. What is very very against it is that the majority of the fans ship Mileven, and that relationship has been outlined and crafted since the begining.
In my conspiranoic mind, the reason they are not being more obvious is because they want to subvert expectation like they do with fake deaths all the time. If they are not going there I will be pissed. At the very very least minimum Will should come out next Season and Robin and the other girl should date and tell everyone to be acceptable.
I have seen Eyewitness! (Great show - enjoyed both the original one and the American one) and I've seen the comparison. And I'm not saying this to get anyone's hopes down, I would love for Byler to be canon, but why would the creators consciously make references to a 8 yo series with one season, in a different genre, for a different demographic that has no cult value outside of queer circles? The duffer brothers as well as other people in the production crew make a lot of movie references in Stranger Things, classic Sci Fi and horror and 80's movies. They do that as a hommage,as Easter eggs for the audience and so on. So I think we as queer watchers should ask ourselves - why would they reference Eyewitness?
Like I think Will is gonna come out next season and hopefully Robins story will be treated better! But I am doubting Byler, because I don't see what they would gain from it as creators. But I would love to be surprised!
At the end of the day, it's a mainstrem show written by straight guys. They know nothing about queer environments, nothing of queer friendship and queer romance, so how would they depict that? I'm not sure I'd like to see them try... At the end of the day Will was supposed to be THE one gay character within the friend group because that's the closest two straight dudes can come to queerness.
Stumbled over this video a bit late ;). I like your argumentation line and the "acadamic" approach.
While I think Will being gay was planned from the start. I'm not sure if they knew where to go with Mike/Byler. I understand that this is not just one issue among many from a queer perspective, but for the show it might be. This was never presented as a queer show, and while I agree that it would be a great representation of queer life if two main characters just come to terms with their sexuality and get together while being of the same sex, without that being a major topic in the show itself - it wouldn't ruin the show for me if not.
Because there is something else that is not represented well in mainstream media: deep emotional relationships of men. Will and Mike had one as boys. They talk about their feelings, especially Will, and Mike has no problem to physically show his affection. They lost their connection in season 3, and it is partly reestablished in season 4, albeit now overshadowed by Will's romantic interest of which Mike is totally unaware.
I hope (and actually I'm sure) that we will see Will and Mike as a "couple". Either as platonic, but very close friends, or as Byler. If they are open towards each other and "crazy together", I'd be fine with it, no matter if they kiss and hold hands or agree that Mike is not interested but still wants to be Will's friend. And that would be an important representation of queer reality as well - falling in love with straight friends is a very queer problem, and to see it resolved in a healthy and positive manner - why not?
Yes! What irritates me most is that they don't want to write Will without a gay boy, they want a gay boy who doesn't have gay scenes so homophobes can keep watching the series. Because homophobes are extremely cool people: blood and bloodless children put in danger all the time? Yes! A 15 year old boy who likes his friend? At the!
(kinda late here but anyways) I am straight (I think) and at first I didn't see either Will nor Mike as gay until the "it's not my fault you don't like girls" scene and I wasn't fully convinced until S4 vol.1 came out and I didn't know about byler until I got more into the fandom but now I can't help but ship it because I am both a Will stan since day 1 and I would consider myself as a Mike defender - as in he is not as bad as people make him out to be - and I see the "evidence".
I watch the show with my father and recently my hole family got into the show (my mom, younger brother, aunt and cousins -who are young kids may I add- ) and of all of us just my dad failed to pick up on the clues and thought Will liked Eleven until we all discussed it.
Overall I do think it's queerbaiting (especially with Will) and the only way I think the Duffers can save the ship now is for byler to become cannon or at least to have Will confess to Mike and having him kinda doubt about him reciprocating the feelings or something like that because 1. That's the only way Will won't get screwed like, let him be happy for once in his life and 2. That's the only way he will be able to have a love interest (and also because that's the only reason I feel like people still like Mike and u refuse to have him screwed as well) and also Will is going to be more important this next season so they better give us the best food.
And as a sidenote I read one of your responses and I am happy I'm not the only one who saw a shift in Robin's character on S4 as in wdym she is not an academic? I thought she could speak 4 languages and she was my fav character back in S3 and I still love her but ... Yeah...
The duffer sisters know tho😞 they have Vickie and robin already they introduced it in season 3 that there’s GAYYYY characters! They could push the byler agenda in season 5 without losing fans because they already pushed robin and Vickie and season 4 was HUGE in popularity
robin is a side character tho… tbh she shouldn’t have gotten as much screen time as she did, lesbian or not.
This is a very grounding video thank you
I loved the video! Honestly, I've never seen Byler as anything more than a beautiful friendship, but Will is definitely gay. At this point I just want my boy to be happy, and for his sexuality to be cannon! I can't go through the same thing again, not after Swan Queen😅
Thank you so much! I actually have high hopes for season 5, maybe despite my better judgement haha, I'm not sure he'll be happy but it seems like he'll be a bigger character again and maybe get some screentime...
@@obviouslyqueer let's hope 🤞🏻
Ik this video isn’t rlly about Teen Wolf but I always thought that Stiles was bi especially on my rewatch when I picked up on the long silence when he was asked if he liked boys and the other moments, I just never saw the chemistry with Derek. The age gap was too weird for me and I just didn’t like them together, I much preferred Stiles with Lydia. I didn’t realise that the show runners themselves had been advertising Sterek outside of the show, I always thought that Sterek shippers were so desperate to see a gay ship with the main characters that they were looking into chemistry that wasn’t there, I didn’t realise that the show runners were tempting the shippers outside of the show, that’s so mean of them :((
Also with the fetishising of gay people, I see it a lot in this server I’m in. It’s for a ship within a popular game I play, and for some reason most of the people in this server are convinced that one of the guys is trans or they portray him as AFAB, and sure it’s nice to have some trans representation, but they literally make him trans in all of their works, and make mostly smut works and call him “wife” and “babygirl” and it just seems so fetishy to me, is it me overthinking this? Or does this seem like fetishising to other people too?
If byler were to actually happen and you were somehow wrong, how would you feel?
Great honestly. I'd love that. It would be very cool and brave and nice
@@obviouslyqueer I personally wouldn't know what to feel. While Will's queer coding was immediately obvious to me, I had no idea that shipping Mike and Will was a thing. They have chesmistry in earlier seasons yes, but I never saw it as more than just a best friend dynamic. I guess they could win me over depending on how they handle it, but I just don't see it happening in a satisfying way. I'm also not bothered by how they're handling Will's queerness, probably since his character is almost a mirror of my youth (minus the best friend crush). Too bad I changed too much and grew to be sad and bitter haha
@@oneish7454 That's fine to see them as friends, but they are, unlike the other Male friendships in the show, romantically coded and have been since S1. Byler has been fairly popular since S2. Even S1 had its shippers too. There are some good analysis vids and posts out there that people have made explaining and pointing out the signs of Byler not just from S4, but from prior seasons. Some people just didn't pay attention to the not so subtle signs from prior seasons, so that when it became apparent in S4, some people were taken aback and confused. The Duffers are good at foreshadowing and tend to have many easter eggs throughout the show. Heck, in Rink o mania alone, there was so much queerness going on ranging from the music to the people around that I definitely didn't notice 1st time watching S4!
Great Video. I agree with a lot, i guess pretty much everything makes sense. Now can you please do a Video where you talk about Robin? Bc i agree, that while it maybe was representation, it was bad representation.
I have! It's called "problematic representation in Stranger Things'
@@obviouslyqueer oh ok, thx. I didn't check out your channel lol. The Video was in my Watch later list.
if byler doesn’t happen in season 5 do you believe that they have been queerbaiting us?
(i think so, but byler has basically taken over my mind so i’m probably delusional…)
No I don't. If they continue to make Wills sexuality ambiguous I think it was queerbaiting. But not with Byler, I do think people read things into it that are not really there, and that the Duffer Brothers are just not aware of some of the queer undertones that can be read into it.
@@obviouslyqueer i see. thanks for responding:)
haha very good video. my hopes are crushed but it's good to be back in reality. They would just harm the franchise and their legacy if they did sth like that. I think the most we get out of s5 is will dies a hero death saving someone after coming out (but I think it will never directly, undenieble stated).
Maybe he confesses his love to Mike while dieing and Mike reciporates out of confusion (likely as a friend as clueless as he is) and that's it. One community will be happy cuz 'Mike reciporated Will's feelings' and the other 'Mike clearly loves him as a friend (probably while also saying Will is too)'. So we get imo still a good show but at least 'the franchise isn't ruined by the woke mind virus'.
I don't even think it would be a wise decision to make byler happen in a broader perspective because we're in the midst of a culture war. A show as popular as stranger things would definitely add fuel to the fire and this again would just harm the LGBT-Community. (the duffers where bullied into byler by the left)
This probably won't be answered, but what I don't understand is that the Duffer Bros, costume design, etc have made it a point to say that everything used is intentional. Yes, this could mean their intentions are different than the viewers. However, if that's true I would like to hear their reasoning for the one way sign (I didn't really count the rainbows, that's probably reaching), the yellow/blue color choices and thematics with lighting and clothing in those regards, and the several queer films they've paralleled nearly shot for shot. One being It- not a queer film but there were queer storylines- which they directly tweeted they were inspired by the franchise. (Finn played both Mike and Richie, and it's the shot after Will has his Halloween episode- I would normally think this was reaching if they weren't inspired and they had Finn's actor nearly the in the same position, as well as Richie being a closeted gay man in love with his friend).
You probably know all of this, but-
They've also referenced some other romances too like Highschool Musical (probably a reach but the DB's did, once again, tweet about Stranger Things and in the list of movies was Highschool Musical but ehhhhhhh). But the more interesting one I've seen is Dawson Creek, a show the Bros said they loved. They seem to have some inspiration from that show involving a romance, but again could be coincidence.
If this is somehow all just queerbaiting I wouldn't be surprised. I thought your point that Mike could just be growing uncomfortable was a refreshing take, especially with his identity and masculinity issues. But honestly- it's hard for me to see that with how much Finn directs his eyes lower on Noah's face. Its not even nervous flickering like I do, but seems like a deliberate up and down by the actor. Finn's micro expressions can be so fascinating! But again people have to be careful not to read too much into things. So I'm keeping my expectations realistic.
But to wrap this up, in the van with the painting (one of the scenes people think are inspired by a queer film) Will and Mike have back lights in their eyes in the shape of hearts. I always make sure to double check on Netflix to reassure myself its not the internet messing with me. But back lighting in the shape of hearts is intentional imo
I just went back and watched the painting scene. Will definitely has heart eyes, especially right after he handed Mike the painting. Mike's are up for debate depending on the moment.
Now as a queer viewer and someone who loves looking at how films are shot frame by frame to convey messages, this is my interpretation of the scene (totally could be wrong and I'm not one of those fans who will get my pitchfork if I am):
Mike is giving his big speech about El and feeling like she doesn't need him and gets overwhelmed (This is where he famously refers to El as Superman and himself as Louis Lane which to me is out of character for a toxic-masc 80's teen boy)
Will interrupts and says, "You're scared of losing her." (To me, this is a direct parallel to their conversation about how Mike was scared of losing Will in the room, which then urged Will to grab the painting so to me that makes sense narratively to bring back that quote the next time the painting is brought back.)
The famous, [tender, emotional music] just for couples plays as Mike looks at Will. He nods.
Will ask if he can show him something as Mike seems to do a triple glance at Will's lips, but this could be wrong.
Will bends down to start getting the painting out of the back.
Here's where I find interesting- normally when people offer to show someone something and reach in a bag their eyesight follows the person and their hands. After the 'triple take' and Will starts reaching Mike continues to stare at Will until Will hands him the painting. It's such a strange acting choice to me and for Mike's character.
Will hands him the painting, which Mike looks at Will multiple times to double check before opening it. This could mean ANYTHING. I double check a million times when I'm handed something - but
I can't help but remember how they specifically showed us in the first scene Mike reading El's letter about it being for a crush. So I feel like the writers wanted us not only to be suspicious of the painting but to know that Mike is aware of El's crush comment.
Now this could easily be explained by Michael figuring it was a different painting- but that's not told through the subtext and storytelling imo. To me, it doesn't make sense to show us Mike reading that and then expecting the audience to know Mike figured it wasn't the same painting.
Mike opens the painting and is extremely pleased, as his eyes dart around his face lights up. Which makes sense as he is shown to be Will's #1 art fan. Now, like I said Mike could have reasoned it was a different painting, but from my perspective there's a good chance he knows Will was possibly painting a work for his crush. While I don't think Mike is as self aware to realize all of this and his own queerness, I think subconsciously if you liked someone without fully accepting it you'd still be pleased by the notion of getting a gift from them.
Yes this could be reaching, but Mike is beaming and then Will lies and says El commissioned it. We get Will's reaction and we also get Jonathan's reaction as we know John has a feeling because of the later Pizza scene.
We don't get Mike's reaction, which is common as we don't often get Mike's POV and usually the script and show is written from Will's. We can tell (or at least I thought so) that characters have been proven to be unreliable narrators at times. For example, from Will's preservative at the Roller Rink it seemed visually like Mike wasn't paying much attention to him, but later when they're arguing- Mike reveals he saw things he couldn't have seen (which implies the view we get from Will's perspective is squeed) or at the very least it implies Will was incorrect about Mike not posting attention.
I just find it interesting that during that same scene, after it cuts to Jonathan's reaction to the lie we cut to the rear view mirror, showing Mike is no longer beaming after the initial change (could be a reach but it was such an abrupt mood change especially we didn't get his reaction from will, but from Johnathan's perspective while Will is looking away).
The next time we get Johnathan's pov in the rear view Will is looking away again, but this time Mike is gazing at him. He gazes at him the whole rest of the conversation and this could be because Will is upset- but the tender emotional music playing is really making me expect a kiss. Not in an entitled way, just that's the vibes. Especially since there's another lip glance thrown in by one Michael Wheeler when Will turns back and leans in close to emphasize his speech. This one was really fascinating to me because he did a common move I see a lot of closeted kids do which is the "open mouthed gaze, glance at the lips, oh shit fix my face" which by that I mean as soon as he glances down his eyes rip back up and he immediately presses his mouth shut and his eyebrows jump.
Then as Will says, "She'd rather rip it off like a bandaid" the camera quickly jumps back to Mike, cutting Will just barely out so we know it's not his POV and Mike's reaction is to look Will up and down and gulp.
Now I don't think this was sexual, but scared/nervous. I just thought it was interesting before he swallowed he gave Will a glance down as if he was worried for him as well?
They have their "Yeah, Yeah" and as Will looks away, again barely in the shot so probably Mike's POV we see him give him a second smile, even more found then the first. I'm not saying he knows, just that there are some vibes going on. He could have been pleased about his 'gf's speech' but it was weird the writers decided to convey that by him glancing/smiling back at Will instead of out a window and then transitioning to El. That makes since for Mileven.
Lastly as Will cries out the window, we see Mike give him one last glance.
On one hand, Mike just looks like a friend who is endeared and having a special moment if a bit clueless, on the other hand I'm being some odd vibes.
Even though I'm queer and interpret this scene as queer everyone's respectful interpretations are valid. I'm not about to cause a riot...yet
I’m sorry but with all the publicity shit the stranger things team if Byler isn’t canon in the next season it’s definitely queer baiting in my eyes
I can see that, however it seems clear mike wants el.
Like they've made major issues in making mike wills love interest.
Theres the byler fandom that are absolutely certain endgame and again with mileven.
However as of now mileven is canon to be endgame, so however this show ends very likely with mileven for the story arc. Therefore byler is a massive fan base and probably won't get what they require sadly.
Why they didn't just have will meet another boy, that way milevens are content they get their endgame, bylers are somewhat happy, they get wills happy ending.
I'm not sure I'd be offended it they aren't endgame though the way I'm seeing it is that will is absolutely canon to be gay, where as mike, I don't think he is. Imo if will isn't canon gay is queerbaiting, but not for mike
ahhh just let the gays have an elaborate piece of mediaaaaa 😭
Yeah exactly!! That's such a good way to put it! An elaborate piece of media!!
i really wanna know your opinion on robin
I'm just gonna copypaste what I wrote in another comment, hope that makes sense!
In short - I did enjoy Robins coming out! I think Robin in season three was a worked through character, she had a narrative purpose, lead the story forward and she was cool! And her being a lesbian was great!
And then came season 4, and they had completely changed her character. Her extreme personality-change between the season made no sense? In season 4 she was only in the way, the comic relief, poorly written and unimportant to the story.
When the Duffer Brothers wrote Robins script/character in season 3 she was straight and important to the show, and when they wrote her in season 4, as a lesbian - she was not. I feel like they were like "oh well she's gay now that's enough purpose for her to just be around, let's make her over quirky so at least there's that"
I feel her love story was extremely sloppy written, I know that it was put there for representation alone but for me I could feel no queer person had anything to do with that. There was no chemistry, nothing that made any sense, I know the fact that they were exactly the same was written as a joke and something that was supposed to be fun/cute but I just found it cringe.
So - like mention in the video I don't think it's Queerbaiting and I know people who still like Robin in season 4. So it's really my personal preferences here regarding the love interest.
But I dislike that they originally wrote Robin likable, straight, smart and important for the story. And when they changed her sexuality they also changed her personality - to annoying, in the way and unimportant for the story.
It is hard for me to say, really. I picked up on 'the subtext' (Fun fact: I was watching this with my grandma, who is straight and doesn't know what queerbaiting is and she also picked up on it. Just letting you know.), but I also had in mind that I was watching actual children going through the most difficult situations. I have never shipped any of the childpairs, because it made me feel weird. My only thought was whenever I saw them kiss was actually 'Aren't they a bit too young for that?' or 'How cute!' That last one could also apply to the older pairs, really. But still most of them are kids (Or teens. I don't know). Do I feel baited? No, not really. Do I feel like they could have done better? I really don't know. I am very unfamiliar with how to represent a queer character. If there are any good examples nowadays. I know that (I wish I remembered the exact interview, but it is out there.) the Duffers change their minds a lot when they write the show. Now I am trying not to sound like I am defending them, because lord knows people will come after me if I do, but they are still two straight cis men. I don't think straight men are known for writing good queer characters (If there are, please let me know). If you use the argument of that it is set in the 80's, in my humble opion, you don't have to agree, it makes sense that it isn't explicit. Also, Do we know how long Will has known that he is gay? Or has he just found out?
God, I really don't know... I don't want to start a fight or bring up any stupid points. I would like to point out ,because I thought it should be said and before people will say something about it to me, that even if Joseph queercoded Eddie without 'Approval', he wasn't stopped either. Just stating a fact. As far as it is a fact, of course. I could always be proven wrong. So, yeah, I should stop typing before I actually upset someone.
You're not upsetting anyone! Don't worry about it. If you read through the comments you'll see people are a lot harsher then you in their opinions. I like when people disagree!
I don't think it's wierd to "ship" younger characters, It roots in a desire to see homosexual kids represented in the same ways that heterosexual are. No sex, no sexualisation, but just... representation. Straights are allowed to be in relationships from a very young age, both in media and in reality, without it being wierd and I think gays should be too.
@@obviouslyqueer Well, thank you so much. I obviously agree that both young queers and old queers should be represented on as much platforms. I was just a bit tense with how many people are so...hardcore for the lack of a better word.
in a way, i actually think it makes sense of will not coming out yet to anyone explicitly. he's a small town boy in the 80s in the middle of a satanic panic and hiv crisis. one word to the wrong person and he's ash. it makes sense that he is so scared that not even jonathan seems like the right person to tell. but it being explicit at some point, even if he doesnt say it to another person, just himself, is crucial for me. apart from him - mike wheeler is just such a complex character to me. like come on, his introduction song in the series is literally smalltown boy by bronski beat. ANY queer person who is a bit aware of 80s queer culture KNOW about that song and the meaning and importance of it. and then on season 4 mike is heavyly looking up to the new queer coded character that flirts with steve harrington the entire season then dies? i dont think this was just a coincidence, but a part of me thinks that the duffers are not really that aware of their queer coding in mike. and not only mike - but also nancy. oh boy how much nancy falls under comphet. but again, the duffers are 2 straight dudes who i think have no clue about what they are doing.
Agree with you completely! Thanks for your comment! I don't fint it necessary or the best for the story really for Will to come out explicitly to everyone (though the scene with Jonathan could have been that....) But he needs to come out explicitly for the viewers. Bc right now they're just dodging homophobes
Could you argue that older Hollywood movies during the Hays code were queerbaiting? There was a lot of queer subtext that couldn't be explicitly shown. Or does queerbaiting mostly hinge on advertising being a factor?
No I don't think older movies (during the hays code) can queerbait, neither can countries with strict censorship. They have to use subtext!
@@obviouslyqueerThanks for the reply! I wrote this before watching the whole video and realised you address this haha
36:50
at 29:29 you talked about how will was bullied for being gay, then later said that he also had problems with his dad because of being gay. And I would like to say, both of those things are true for mike as well. He was bullied for being queer (lucas and dustin weren't) and Mike's dad has made some homophobic comments towards to him as well. So, I don't really know what your point is if Mike literally has the same 2 problems.
and around 31:10 you say that Mike is using Will's "femininity" as an insult, but don't think he was saying "you don't like girls, you're gay." but he was trying to say that he was the only person in the group uninterested in getting a girlfriend or talking about relationship problems.
But if he was trying to say that Will was gay, I don't think what he said is inheritly proof that he is homophobic or proof that he isn't queer Mike's father is homophobic and has made homophobic comments towards mike, so therefore mike could just sort of be copying his father, or, he could be doing a completely unrelated thing, projecting his feelings for will. Plus, afterwards he immidiately feels bad about it (I'm sorry this doesn't make much sense I'm really bad at explaining my thoughts.)
I think you had a LOT of good points in this video, especially since most arguments against byler i've seen have contridicted themselves or just been shitty. I think it really sucks that the duffer brothers queerbaited us, and I always think about how the number one reason that byler isn't going to happen, is just because homophobic viewers won't understand it, and they'll be extremely upset with it. If byler was canon in season 5, the majority of viewers would just be extremely confused, thinking it was just a last minute addition to the plot since they didn't pick up on any of the previous "queercoding". So, it wouldn't make any sense for byler to be canon in season 5, unless it was more queerbaiting shit that only queer people could pick up on. Although, you made a good point about the duffer brothers waiting until the last season for will to come out because that way no one could stop watching (since its already over) which actually has me thinking that they could put byler in that way, but its a stretch.
Michael wasnt bullied for being gay, where did you get that from?
@@danganfan I heard that he was bullied for being gay just not on screen, but I was wrong. But either way, I feel like the homophobic comments Troy made towards Will in season one were also kind of towards Mike. Troy wasn't talking to lucas or dustin in those moments, just to Mike, kind of implying he was also calling Mike queer. He was talking about Will, not about Mike, but then he tripped Mike on a rock, not doing anything to Lucas or Dustin, only Mike?? After he was being homophobic? (yes he later held a knife to Dustin later that season, but he didn't say anything homophobic, plus he was basically trying to kill mike in that moment) Mike was also known for being really close to Will and being his best friends to the other kids at that school, they could have suspected he was queer as well. Especially since his dad also said things implying he was too close to Will (and not the other party members)
I dont agree with "hannibal" doing queerbaiting because hannibal character explicit says that he is in love with will and then will discovers hannibal feelings for him and even if he's surprised at first then he is okay with it.
Will himself explicitly explains multiples times that him and hannibal doesn't have a simple friendship.
The final scene of season 3 with a lot of others scenes are very revelatory about will possibly also being in love with him.
I dont think that because there's no kissing or sex then it's automatically bad representation. It's still can be valid. Im bisexual, I love to see queer couples in media, and of course I love seeing the characters having sex in the most realistic way, but for me it's not the most important thing, at the end of the day what I want to see is the love story between two people. I wanna see the romantic relationship. And for me, hannibal satisfied my criteria.
Im a huge fan of "queer as folk" us, you think that I loved justin and brian being together because they were having a lot of sex with each others? You think that them kissing was my biggest goal watching the show? You think that is what made me cry for days and fell in love with them? Seriously? I have porn web sites if I wanna see gay sex.
I couldn't care less about two gay/bi characters that are shown to being explicit affectionate with each others if there's no decent love story behind the two of them that evolves and growth and maturate with time.
I hate how people easily start to ship a couple only cause they look hot together and sexy when they kiss and share a couple of common/flirty phrases once in a while. How satisfied they are watching these stories that most of the time have very bad or poorly written storyline.
I can tell you didn't really watch my video? So I'm not sure how I should respond to this haha. But I agree with you on all points. As I say in the video - Hannibal is NOT queerbaiting and the fetishizing of gay men is a problem in fandom culture.
14:30 i was surprised to hear this because i thought the lesbian representation (i am lesbian myself) was very good 😅
That's great for you! Glad you enjoyed it!
People really don’t get context like you the creator of this video clearly hasn’t watched the show a massive example is you’ve said Mike can’t meet Wills gaze in the desert scene which is false. Literally a few seconds before that Argyle had a meltdown and started yelling to Mike the army were going to kill his girlfriend then them. Mike is clearly bothered by this comment whilst he’s digging which Will notices it’s really not what people think it is. The scene is not romantic when you know Mikes head is in turmoil over being told El could be killed so Will isn’t even on his mind in that scene. This is also further backed up by Will telling Mike that argyle is basically losing it and not to listen to him. Will recognises Mikes struggles in dealing with what he heard because Will knows how Mike feels about El.
why do you not like robin as representation?
We'll see if this makes sense in text but in short - I did enjoy Robin in season three and her coming out! I think Robin in season three was a worked through character, she had a narrative purpose, lead the story forward and she was cool! And her being a lesbian was great!
And then came season 4, and they had completely changed her character. Her extreme personality-change between the season made no sense? In season 4 she was only in the way, the comic relief, poorly written and unimportant to the story.
When the Duffer Brothers wrote Robins script/character in season 3 she was straight and important to the show, and when they wrote her in season 4, as a lesbian - she was not. I don't think that was their intention, but it was the end result nonetheless.
I feel her love story was extremely sloppy written, I know that it was put there for representation alone but for me I could feel no queer person had anything to do with that. There was no chemistry, nothing that made any sense, I know the fact that they were exactly the same was written as a joke and something that was supposed to be fun/cute but I just found it cringe.
So - like mention in the video I don't think it's Queerbaiting and I know people who still like Robin in season 4. So it's really my personal preferences here, at least regarding the love interest which I know people liked.
But I dislike that they originally wrote Robin likable, straight, smart and important for the story. And when they changed her sexuality they also changed her personality - to annoying, in the way and unimportant for the story.
Good analysis and critique, but the sound mixing could be better. The clips you use are very loud compared to your speaking voice, which is much quieter. It's hard to adjust the volume as a result.
Thank you! 😊 I tried to make it even in the editing program but I get what you mean that it's still quite uneven in the finished product, so thanks for pointing it out!
@@obviouslyqueer no problem :) 👍 keep up the good work
noah came out and said that will is gay and that the only reason they didn’t have him come out was that it could be realistic and that he’ll come out next season so to me will wasn’t queerbait at all but more so a realistic 14yo gay boy in the 80s
Will is definitely gay, Mike i don't think so. My opinion tho, idk if it's treu ofcourse
I agree! We'll see though!
Tbh Luca was Gay-baited thanks to the media since I saw headlines calling it "Callamari by your name" a pun on the gay film Call me by your name. People went into it insisting that Luca and Alberto were Gay, right up.to fans harassing the Director/writer by flat out insinuating that he had to be gay with his friend Alberto too, which is ironic since we tell others not to lable us and respect how they ID. 🤔
But enough of that, Will is most definitely Gay and in love with Mike, but as for Mike I meed to point something out. Byler shipping I think took off around the same time another powerful gay ship from a certain clown movie took off, Reddie. From then on simular to Bill Hader's career, people memed and insisted since Finn had played Richie Tozier, canon Gay and in love with Eddie Kaspbrak, or Boris from The Goldfinch who was most likely Gay and in love with the main guy. So hence people put those notions onto Mike Wheeler, who has never shown to be drawn to anyone outside of Eleven. Sure he could possibly be Bisexual, but seriously its about a 1% chance for Mike 'Dad voted for Regan' Wheeler being anything but in love with El.
Also, I think you misunderstood the fetishism of Gay men. Its not the homophobic response to Gay couples sexualising them and saying its bad for kids, no.. it instead is something I've witnessed. Especially in Anime. Fujoshi is the word for that. There is especially shown as Yaoi is written for women in Japan. It shows Gay men involved with eachother, usually very soft, cute, uwu stuff. Its not written for Gay Men but mostly Straight women. As a fellow Gay, I definitely can say some shipping IS fetishist. Not all though and we do need more just like Gays existing, but yeah I have seen straight ladies treat gay guys lile Kelly from the America The Office, telling him he didn't know "his culture" since he didn't know who Lance Bass was.
Do your really think Boris or other gay characters influenced Byler? It's an interesting thought but not something I've seen traces of.
Also regarding the fetishizing I don't think maybe you saw the whole video? There are different aspects of gay fetishizing, one is heterosexuals sexualizing gay youth (as the case with anti-bylers) as well as men fetishizing lesbians, and then there is also the problem of straight and gay women fetishizing gay men. The aspect you mention, for example yaoi, real-life shipping and overall sexualizing. I talked briefly in this video about it and I've talked a lot about it in other videos, I wrote my bachelor thesis about it so I'm quite invested in the subject. But I don't think THAT aspect of the discussion is what's happening with Byler.
I don’t really think it’s queerbaiting, because they only confirmed Will being gay and in love with Mike after they had filmed it. The suffer brothers hinted at Will being gay because of the insults from the bullies and Will’s ex dad, calling him the f slur, or when he was missing, Troy (the bully) said ‘He probably got killed by some *other queer* ‘ which meant Will was a queer as well. Joyce also said they made fun of his clothes. So all these hints were starting from season 1, and The suffer brothers definitely has some kind of romance planned for Will with Mike. But to be fair, the only reason why I know Byler will be canon is cause they would get cancelled for queerbaiting.