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This video and comment section is giving me hope for the future of fandom. I love you my wlw shippers. 💚

My fav queer seduction as game plan is Dom and Darlene from Mr Robot. I would happily watch a whole spinoff of them.

Her: nerdy 15 year olds who study musical theater Me feeling called out: 👁️👄👁️

I think queer subduction as a game plan is maybe a little cathartic because queerness is never really something that can be wielded to increase social standing or power.

I don't speak for any other sapphics out there but if a woman seduces me I'd def be more than a little stupid, in fact I'd probably be brain dead

Love the video! One thought on White Lotus season 2: I am not sure we are supposed to think that Jack is actually Quentin’s nephew. There are clues in the show that Jack is actually sex worker hired by Quentin. I think Quentin calls him his nephew cover story to avoid raising suspicions about his plans/deceptions.

TYRELL??!

Finally you‘ve got over 10k subscribers and you actually bought a new microphone! Love it. <3

"I want my gays in prison" should be a t shirt 💅🏽

Not even waiting to finish the video before I comment but it’s bc they’re children and it’s weird that it’s so normalized to depict teens in a sexual way hope this helps (the hope this helps is a general statement not directed at you specifically !!!)

Gay millennials discover the concept of Children's TV 😭😭😭😭😭

People who are obsessed with internalized homophobia and gay trauma in general, a lot of whom will NEVER go through those things. I didnt see Will as dealing with that. I saw it as the awkwardness of growing apart, his bad social skills in general, and maybe that he could sense Will's crush on him

I loved the video, and you're a great video essayist!

32:23 I feel like a reason for the pragmantic/ambigously bi label is a need for people to a)caterogires sexualities in clean neat boxes and so b) wanting to show, as you said, a character so ambitious that they are willing to sleep with people outside of their "box". But in that case why couldn't oliver just be a sex neutral ace who's not actually sexually attracted to anyone and just uses it as a tool (his "love" for Felix aside)

I wonder if The Handmaiden/Fingersmith (movie/book) for a double messy category, without spoiling it, it is a beautiful sapphic mess but the main aim was to be friend the mistress and convince her to marry the gentlemen not to seduce/fall in love with her themselves

LOVE that you have a lot of examples. I feel like so many video essayists just use one or two and assume their point is self-explanatory.

INCREDIBLE VIDEO AAA!!! This is genuinely researched, analysed and argued so well, this was such an enjoyable 48 minutes. Thank you so much!! You've earned a new subscriber

I think their relatively 'chaste' dynamic is partially rooted in the author's asexuality. Also, the current world is so hyper-sexual that I think it's nice to take a bit of a break.

I also think it's really interesting how Queerness and masculinity connect, because there is a big difference between what is considered "homoerotic behavior" from men VS. women. A male character looks at another male character for a little too long? Definitely gay! Female character gets absolutely freakin' railed by another female character? Eh, I'm still not sure they are gay tho... And yes, this is rooted in how physical affection is often seen as unmanly.

Honestly, within the context of female Queerness, I think it's kind of a vicious cycle. WLW stories are underrepresented and the relationships we get are underdeveloped, so we turn to MLM stories, which tend to be more readily available and better-written. This leads MLM media to become even more hegemonic and WLW media to become even more obscure (not to mention mediocre). Obviously, the weird straight women and sapphic love often being reduced to subplots does not help.

iwtv mention :D

Ey, a Swedish queer content creator? Awesome! Sometimes feel like the community gets a bit insular since acceptance is so high here (though the situation for transpeople is increasingly tenous). I feel that female desire - especially female sapphic desire - is generally sanitized. To me it seems that men, being seen as dominant/initiators, are allowed much greater freedom to express their desire - though gay men aren't allowed to express romantic longing to the same extent as their straight counterparts. I feel like these themes are maintained in queer culture as well to some extent in the u-haul lesbian/hopeless lesbian and the grindr boy stereotypes. You make some good points about what seems plausible to straight society. I do wonder if the comparatively high gay male rep might be related to how 'gay best friends' have been quite common in media targeted at straight women compared to lesbian women in media targeted at straight men?

Read the title and immediately thought of Call my agent (french tv show) There's a messic sapphic seduction because of a tax audit- Anyway just a recommendation for whoever might be interested

i'm so glad I stumbled onto your video...youtube algorithm actually did its job. Subscribed and cant wait to see you later in the year with another banger!

Check out The page turner, a f/f example. Btw, I'd say Oliver is QUITE messy 😅✌🏻 and to me mostly gay.

I am genuinely grateful for the homepage algorithm bringing me to this channel. ❤

Gay villains aren't new at all though.

I was thinking about this last night and it occurred to me that, aside from all the cultural/political stuff of the moment impacting this, there's also a more visceral generational divide that might be adding to it? Like: Teens and 20somethings rn are dealing with the enormous social pressure to have sex regardless of how they feel about it, to make their youthful "beauty" available to those with the resources to entice in by "putting themselves On The Market", that our youth-fetishizing capitalist culture places on them. 30- and 40-somethings, on the other hand, are dealing with that same culture's pressure for them to STOP having sex and stop being sexual because they're now "old" and "gross". So there's friction where the opposite pressures both age-groups are facing abrade. In a similar way youts are trying to navigate their first relationships while also avoiding the traumatic, manipulative, and coercive sex which is sadly, for many people, their first experience with it. Middle Agers, on the other hand, are just starting to work THROUGH and move PAST those initial sexual traumas to explore a healthier, more open, honest, and mutualistic sex-life. So again: the pressures and experiences of these two different phases of life are pushing both age-groups in almost antagonistic directions.

came into this video not knowing that we'd see griddlehark represented but of course they are! they're taking over the world. I probably make up a significant percent of the aggressive brainrot on tumblr, and i am quite proud of it. Mean horny toxic ferocious traumatised complex lesbians for the win!!!

I don’t have anything to add. So here’s a comment for the algorithm.

You want us in prison and still you're entitled to speak over us about what constitutes "good" representation of us. Please just leave the G alone.

5:02 it’s not even always establishing them as queer- I would argue that the idea of a man (presumably straight but doesn’t have to be) willingly having sex with another man is itself seen as the furthest, most perverse act one could engage in

I like my gays messy sue me!!! Amazing take as always, love the turtleneck as always

Honestly, I was so hungry for your next take on things! This topic is fascinating! Wouldn’t have thought about it if not for your thorough analysis

Great video. Trough is said "tro-ff". English is weird.

sapphic messy queer seduction as a game plan >>>>>> I just love the mess, drama, not knowing the line between sexual attraction and feelings, dubious morality, and all of the chaotic sapphicness. It’s just so much more fun than rooting for a goody-two-shoes character

This also reminds me of Steven Universe and how, at the time, the final season of the show was HATED because Rose Quartz was kind of a bad person making selfish choices that set the plot of the whole show in motion. Even in the kid's show people at the time could not accept a flawed woman even though looking back she's such a wonderful morally grey messy sapphic

honestly ur content so good scripted so interesting and having a high quality that I can wait as long as it need to produced. im already get a watch to all ur other videos. great work as always❤

I have another example of this trope. im finally understood why I was so disgusted with "from the cold". DEAR QUEER PEOPLE DO NOT WATCH THIS I BEG U! IT IS FOR STRAIGHT AUDIENCE! I WAS BAITED😭😭😭 main character was spy-super hero thing. big part of the history was flashbacks from her first mission and first seduction plan. so hetero main character woman not only in final get what she wanted and killed father of that girl. she was playing with her feelings, other girl thought they were in relationships :). that girl was so happy and sweet about it OMYGOD I HATE IT. it was clearly mix of clean and messy queer seduction plan trope. it was like a split in a face. DON'T WATCH IT QUEERS. it traumatized me. I was not their audince. I don't think ill ever find something so horrible😂😂😂.

My favourite is 'The Favourite'.

absolutely loved this video! i love that you touch on why morally dubious queer characters can be good representation ✨

I always love your videos they are so interesting and your personality is fun to watch thank you for all your hard work 💜

Great video! Love how academic your vids feel compared to others'. No shade on them though!

Yesss, love the video❤ and theme❤❤

Wonderful video. Now to watch more...

Not sure if jasper fits.

So true. It feels like gay men are hypersexualized constantly with people thinking about who is the top or the bottom in gay couples before even knowing someone's name. It's as if gay men's lives revolve solely around sex and not also love and and romantic connection while the opposite happens to lesbians. Sapphic love stories are framed as always about love and yearning when in the real world girls just wanna have fun sometimes and fck another hot girl at a party or whatever no drama, but I am a hoe so...

I saw your video premiering and had to add to my list purely based on title I was not disappointed and and definitely subscribing very well put ❤️

In terms of sapphic queer seduction, I wonder what you think of Delphine in Orphan Black. It does eventually play into the ~wlw are about love~ point you make, but initially Delphine is explicitly being used as a temptation (by a man she is also sleeping with) to seduce Cosima in order to gain her trust and access to her files. It definitely falls into the messy category, but has the additional factor of placing the agency of the seduction less on Delphine and more on Leekie, who is abusing his power over her both for his own sexual relationship with her and to use her sexuality to his benefit. I could see an argument that this is kind of infantilizing in the removal of agency, but I think it mostly serves to boost her likeability because the audience doesn't fully blame her for her actions. (Personally I still have trouble believing that this beginning can start a healthy relationship, and the opposing loyalties she has make her hard to trust, but I know a lot of other wlw love that pairing. I mean they are very attractive at the very least.)

An interesting thing to consider with Gentleman Jack: yes, Lister was taking Walker’s wealth into account but not to clear any debts. The reason why Walker’s wealth is important is because it’s hers… meaning it’s not necessary for her to marry a man to not be impoverished (like Lister’s biggest and messiest ex was forced to do) and meant that Walker would be more likely to stay unattached legally which for Lister was a big deal because she didn’t want to be a mistress. It’s literally one of the biggest fights in season one and season two when Walker says something that makes it sound like she expects the relationship to be secretly transactional and Lister refuses the money because she doesn’t want it… she’d prefer to share their two separate wealth (because Lister doesn’t have debt at the start but goes into debt towards the middle/end and she’s more focused on getting out of trouble through shrewd business rather than Walker paying her as an aspect of their relationship) because her goal is having a wife… the way she talks about things at the beginning of season one is very similar to how marriage and courting was considered in Austen novels (look at how much they talk about their income and that makes them more or less eligible) but to Lister the reason why Walker’s money is attractive is because Walker wouldn’t be financially obligated to marry a man. They never outright lay it out like I did, but Lister hints at it throughout (especially when talking to or about her ex) and they attempt to use similar shorthand that would be familiar in something like Pride & Prejudice (where someone’s personal wealth makes them viewed more or less eligible, but isn’t the focus of the relationship that develops)