@@robertnelson9599 idk about you, but personally i like Lucius. He is really fun and interesting, his body swap ability really tarnished his reputation sadly.
@@joesheridan9451 ands that’s the issue. You don’t have an emperor character you have an emperor role. Their is basically no fundamental character besides big man in gold with physique power
It could've been played better, especially in 40k, if he just realized how much of a dick he was, succumbed to despair, and accepted Nurgle out of "Death is the silent judge over all, and we cannot escape it. So let's embrace it." At least after the whole Plague Change episode. Granted, it is possible Nurgle kinda tweaked his personality via his gifts post-ascension to turn him further to his ways. B/
He’s just a punching bag who continuously compromises his morals to justify his poor decision making. Everyone sees him for what he is (and isn’t) and nobody has ever liked him, not even his own legion.
@@gtr5973 Some in the Death Guard genuinely hate him, but from what I've gathere, they are the minority. You are spot on about his morals and decision making though. Like father, like son, I guess? ;)
@@gtr5973well he actually did kill Guilliman during the plague wars and Guilliman only one because the Emperor got involved. So I wouldn’t say he’s a punching bag. He also defeated the Khan and his legion was one of the few that had any form of Cohesion(ironic I know) after the heresy. All in all he’s pretty solid other than his hypocritical morality
How i would fix Kaldor Draigo: 1. Have him inherit the Noble shard of Magnus (Like it's passed down from each Grandmaster of the Gray Knights to the other) 2. Open up his final battle with M'kar with: "Have you ever eaten... a tangerine?"
She thinks she is better than normal humans and threw the Primarchs into the Warp just so the Emperor could not use them as generals. There is no redeeming her.
@robertnelson9599 Throwing them into the Warp was wrong. Keeping them from the Emperor is not. Remember, the Emperor and the Imperium aren't things to admire.
There are no good guys in 40k, but I'd rather choose than any other latter option. Plus no one knows what the big E really wanted or planned for. Also erda is basically erebus 2.0. That and a space karen
I think another very common reason people will hate a character is the dissonance between how the author wants us to feel about a character and how they actually come off. To use an easy example from your list, Dan Abnett clearly wants us to sympathize with Erda's position and actions, but outside the fact that Perteptuals REALLY suck the life out of any scene they show up in, she comes off very high and mighty despite basically causing the entire heresy. It's a failure of the author get the audience to feel what we're supposed to.
I'd argue that this is the main reason why I end up hating a character. Like, I roll my eyes and get annoyed by characters who are incompetent or badly power scaled. I might even get frustrated by them. But when the story tries to tell me that I'm supposed to like Little Miss Useless Pants even though all she does is make trouble for the heroes by trying to help, or that I'm supposed to side with Gary Stu the Edgy Badass over his friend Jim the Underdog Comic Relief Guy, then I start HATING.
Another good example of this is “Velma” from the Velma show. Where the show writers try to make “Velma” this sarcastic misunderstood smart girl, a genius detective who gets uncredited for her detective work. But instead they wrote an unlikeable racist psychopath who cares about no one but herself, and is actually an idiot and terrible detective since the only clues that helped forward the mystery were thrown at her or found by another character, whereas all she accomplished by herself was accused two innocent people of murder based on extremely circumstantial evidence.
The most impressive thing he's ever done besides cause the Horus Heresy (he was helped by Erebus on that one) amounts to surviving a punch from Guilliman.
@@discountplaguedoctor88 A punch a normal Astartes would have died to. Kor Phaeron is not even a true space marine, he is a fake like Luther. Also he beat up Lorgar when he was growing up.
Another reason to hate Kor Phaeron is he used to beat Lorgar when Lorgar showed up on Colchis. The only reason he is alive is because Lorgar saved his life and Kor Phaeron is still an a$$hole to Lorgar.
100% with you on Mortarion over Russ. I say this as a Death Guard and Space Wolf player. The burning of Prospero while a stupid act is tragic and adds flavour to both the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves as factions. Russ was deceived by Horus but a little too keen to go all in and Magnus was too arrogant to step back and admit fault. Just two completely opposite personality types at loggerheads. Russ in general you get the impression he tries to do the right thing but is blinded by pride or wrath. Mortarion on the other hand was so completely damaged by his upbringing that his dislike of psychers alienated him from his true father and siblings.
i think a better motivation for Mortarian and the Death Guard is having them start off as great idealists and as time goes on the reality of the galaxy and the imperium bears down on them, until eventually they conclude that the imperium, and to a lesser extent humanity, is doomed and turn to chaos to destroy the imperium as a form of mercy kill, with the idea that while destroying the imperium is bad, letting the imperium sit and rot into nothingness is even worse
Finally, someone that gives some credits to Russ for Propero instead of blindingly blame him for everything despite that fact that out of all the big players, he probably fucked up the least.
@@AliceBowie Suddenly, a shard of the C'Tan responsible for destroying the star who's remnants became the planet starts giggling manically while suggestively caressing his tesseract prison walls...
Heres a fun idea for Lucius since he can't die whenever he is in a battlefield there is a legion of the damned hunting him and when he eventually kills the marine he realises its Tarvitz soul and since you know Legion of the damned is basically a daemon of the emperor he cannot resurect from killing tarvitz again so he has to be vigilant all the time.
I like this... if a legion of the damned pulled a Corvus v. Lorgar on Lucius (Corvus Corax spends his time hunting Lorgar)... Here's why it would make Lucius more interesting... HE IS 24/7 trying to procure drugs for himself and his mates... so to add a TERMINATOR following him constantly would make every single LUCIUS book a stalker-esque high tension story... Brilliant!! Cheers bro! GW could pull this off for several books and rehash a character everybody hates... Imagine a scene where Lucius finds drugs but the dealer is silent and just wears a cloak... cloak comes off, flame on! I'll leave the rest to imagination.
Lucius can get killed pretty easily by any long range ordnance. Carpet bomb some marines. He dies in the blast along with dozens of others, bomber has no idea who he’s just killed.
@@deifiedtitan Yea the bomber would still turn into Lucius. Remember even Necrons aren't immune to his curse. 'Not even the mechanical Necrons are immune from this curse, as the Phasing Sword has learned.' Codex CSM 8th edition.
permanently killing off a character but even loyalist guardsmen are immortal if they have a name no wonder the setting is worth less every day, people desire dumb marvelmovies so much when was the last time a novel didnt end in a clear imperial victory of pure boredom
10:30 on Failbaddon, we romanians have a saying "asta e tot ce sa putut"/"this is all that could have been done" on the sense that we did the best possible with what was given but even the possible is not good,it also means that things could have been also worse.
What I find funny about Lucius is that his suit of armour doesn’t even belong to him. Lucius the Eternal was killed by another member of the Emperor’s Children mid-heresy. He wasn’t even their best fighter! Slannesh just found him funny and let him live!
@@joesheridan9451 No, this was a different death. He was whacked in a duel with a Lord Commander of the EC also. He came back, wearing the hapless Lord Commander’s armour.
In Artemis' defense: 1. Eldar have this very nice habit of manipulating and hurting literally everyone else in order to save themselves. 2. Eldrad is somehow infamous for being a manipulator in a species of manipulators 3. Didnt his ritual involve sacrificing an entire planet of humans hoping that the ritual would work?
also in Artemis' defense: 4. even if the ritual did work as intended, how could he be sure that such a deity that is capable of defeating Slaanesh wouldn't one day turn on humanity? especially at the will of the Eldar of all races! (who seek to destroy the imperium to rebuild their old empire)
You say eldar have a habit of hurting people to save themselves, which is true… But the imperium have a habit of just flat out hurting people. So get off your high horse
@@joesheridan9451 Uh, the reason the Imperium "hurts people" is to save themselves... if they don't enforce an authoritarian militaristic regime they will be destroyed by Xenos, Chaos, and their own corrupted citizens.
I actually really love Mortarion, but it's hard to explain why in a RUclips comment. The short version is, if the right author is writing him, he can be a genuinely sad character with a lot of pathos. There just aren't a lot of authors interested in writing him well; instead he gets used as a cardboard cutout for the protagonist/the author's favorite character so often that it's impossible for most people to look past. But (some of) the stories told from his perspective show that his hypocrisy doesn't sit well with him either. He hates himself, too.
Completely agree, despite the lack of good moments he’s had, he is still way more interesting than the characters that constantly get glorified and shown in the spotlight.
the problem with a lot of character is that the imperium has to be the marvel superhero leaving no room for chaos victories and definitely not even a page dedicated to humanizing them your not allowed to see from their perspective, to empathize with how broken they are yet still trying, because then you might consider the imperium not the good guy for a moment and modern gw just cant have that
Another thing is that him becoming a Hypocrite wasn’t his fault necessarily(though his hands are definitely not clean), his morals were just very ill-suited to how events were panning out, that’s the best way I can describe it. He had psychic powers but because of how his adoptive father treated him he suppressed them but would be forced to use them again to save his sons. He joined Horus to kill the Emperor who he saw as no better than his adoptive father(and in fairness he is right to an extent) a Psyker tyrant who was only out for power and to use everyone around him to gain it(granted this was rather because of his own personal feelings rather than wanting humanity to be free of the emperor) but then Horus and the rest of the traitors would turn out to be using Daemons, the warp and tyranny. Over and over again Mortarion tried to follow his superhero code, trying to be a sort of Superman figure In a way but he is just unable to do that due to how everything around him was playing out. granted he made a lot of the choices that put him in those positions, I’m not going to pretend he is a complete victim and Morty can’t see the future and let’s not forget everytime someone has Manipulated Morty. but I’m not sure what else I would do if I were in Mortarion position and in the end he himself did become just like his father and he hates himself for that and yet still puts in a good shift for Nurgle because now he has no choice and he rebels against Nurgle constantly but any and all morals he had were basically Null at this point. That is the tragedy of Mortarion from my perspective.
It's basically a "random bullshit ability". I think it would be more compelling that this blessing is also an legitimate curse by Slaanesh. He literally uses this to get himself killed. That is NOT going to please the "Prince of perfection". It's more like a Tzeenchinian ability because 1. It's an ability suited best for infiltration. 2. Tzeentch is the god of change and mutation.
Lucius is hated because of the ridiculous reasons he’s survived which is I find amusing how ridiculous it is Kaldor I’ll pass but only if a certain theory is true about him otherwise yeah it’s ridiculous
Before Lucius was "blessed" by She Who Thirsts he had no choice like everybody else but to fight to stay alive but at least be the greatest at it. Since becoming essentially immortal what does he have to do anymore but figuratively get under his opponent's skin, die, then literally get under their skin? If he is written well enough towards his end he could stand as an example of what happens when someone so bright becomes lazy.
Grammaticus sounds like a self insert/Gary Stue kind of character… it never works and we seem through the thin veneer of importance/desperation. You did a wonderful job in explaining why characters become hated, the incompetence/refusal to see reason and power scaling, if the two come together it is fatal.
Erda is fanfic. Abnett sometimes tosses ideas in that you have to ignore. Instead of killing her, it should have been revealed that she didn't have anything to do with the primarchs, and was just a possessed psyker perpetual.
It's not fanfic when written by GW, but you do not have to like it. However, Malcador is still "Uncle Mal'" in my book. To me, the whole Erda thing further shows Big E. wasn't perfect, aka just as human as the rest of us. 😎
I don't know if I'm the only person who likes Mortarion, but I think that it made his story more dramatic that he had to use the psychic powers that he hated so much and that he became the servant of Nurgle even though he didn't really support Chaos at first and joined his forces to save his legion from Nurgles plagues. I think that this was a really interesting character development.
I also really grew to like him in the Plague wars. He was very tactical and a very competent leader. When he Typhus and Cugath Plaguefather were having a meeting Typhus wanted to cut at the Lion’s body(attack random planets in ultramar) whistle Mortarion wanted to cut off the lions head. I was more in agreement with Mortarion here, “what is a king without a kingdom?” Typhus asked, oh you mean just 500 planets compared to the millions upon millions within the Imperium that Guilliman now owns completely? If anything the destruction of Ultramare would have just made Guillimans resolve all that stronger. Mortarions plan to kill Guilliman was definitely well thought out and would have definitely been a lot more damaging to the Imperium. Mortarion managed to capture Guilliman at one point and genuinely had the Primarch at the pointy end of Silence. In their next battle where they are not interrupted. Mortarion injects Guilliman with the godblight and actually does kill Guilliman. If the emperor hadn’t intervened on both those occasions than it’s safe to say that Mortarion would have won.
Honestly Erda could’ve worked if they had tied her story into the time-travel shenanigans Horus had gotten up to earlier in the series. IIRC, I’m one of the early Heresy books, he and his honor guard entered a warp rift and wound up in the gestation chamber of the Primarchs. They then damage the protective wards in the room, sending the pods into space. If her story had just been altered so that she was trying to send them to a civilized world but Horus screwed that up, then I think she would’ve more accepted Edit: correction, it was Lorgar. Oh course, it was
Maybe they could’ve made it so that she originally helped made the primachs to be builders of society, but after she found out what the emperor was planning to do with them, she took the primachs on a ship intending to hide on a distant planet to raise the primachs herself away from the emperor and his dreams of conquest, however chaos sucked her ship into the warp and demons tried to take the primachs but Elda used her power to bring the primachs back to reality and save them from the warp, but she became imprisoned in the warp and later she would be found and saved by russ
I'm surprised you didn't' mention Belisarius Cawl. Back in 2017, people absolutely hated him for pulling Primaris Marines out of his arse, improving on The Emperor's works, etc.
I think that makes him quite interesting. He is an arrogant prick, everyone really wants him to fail, but he is a fucking genius. The fact that people hates primaris is another question (which I don't share, but that is not the point)
All the fellas hate Othere Wyrdmake, he broke the bestest boy Ahriman’s heart. The sorcerer can’t handle that much stress, he’s literally just a lil guy
"The mortals ponder why I chose him as my champion....even my servants question his place in the great game....they say it is because of his ability to wield magic like no other, his mistakes that molded his whole legion....and for once I speak truth without riddles... I chose him because he has something, something even the sons of the Anathema lack now, that is..... *hope* , *hope* to *change* , to find the Laughing God's black library, to reverse his brothers' state, to fix his mistakes.... that is why I chose him......" -Tzeentch, Chaos God of Change
The space wolves having psykers that practice sorcery and call it rune priesting is ridiculous. Not that they believe it. But it should have been obvious to everyone else.
I don't hate Othere, he's a bit of an arse but the Thousand Sons had daemons for pets. That's a pretty horrifying idea, especially when they don't know it.
One of the reasons I personally dislike Leandros is because we've seen this plot point done before, but in a much better way. While I can't confirm anything, I really do feel that Space Marine took at least some inspiration from the Uriel Ventris books in how it portrayed the Ultramarines' dynamic and opinions on the codex and unorthodox, potentially problematic tactics. In the Ventris series, he and his sergeant Pasanius are charged with numerous flagrant violations of the codex by sergeant Learchus, who genuinely believed that some of the things they were getting up to were too risky and gross breaches of chapter tactics, whereas they saw them as necessary. This leads to Learchus reporting his captain and fellow sergeant, but he genuinely feels bad about it, and is only doing it out of a sense of duty, and when the two are being exiled he's the only member of their company willing to face them on their walk of shame, and the 3 make it clear there are no hard feelings, but wish things could have been different. Naturally Uriel and Pasanius make it back and everyone is friends again, but I feel the fact that despite doing essentially the same thing as Leandros, Learchus is still able to reforge a bond with his former captain upon his return is telling (I highly doubt things will be as pleasant with Leandros).
Well Lean boi reported his captain to the inquisition literally by passing what the Codex even said to do so not only is he a book slut, he is also a hypocrite. Hope that dude got vored by a space bug or is a forever corporal that is never going to get promoted.
You realise that xenocide is Artemis' job, right? Xenocide is the whole point of the Deathwatch. Xenophobia is a divine edict from The Emperor but Artemis is the asshole for doing his job? You think there is a page in their field manual about allowing the cursed xenos to finish their warp rituals just because they ask nicely?
I will always see him like that and it makes Soo much sense why he does so much while in the warp He is batshit insane and that gives him sanity in a place that has none
I find the emperor is the most human Post human. He makes mistakes, he's a hypocrite and incredibly arrogant. But, he also has humanities best interest at heart, he truly loves at least some of his sons and he feels genuine regret over some of his actions.
Lucius should get killed by an artillery strike by guardsmen who are immediately killed off without ever realizing they killed him, ensuring he never returns.
I'm really with many of your picks and reasons. Abaddon for example is a really interesting cool character; yeah 13 failed black crusades are a lot; but they had to fail, because.. what if he was successful :D the narrative would be all over the places. He's the perfect show-villain; always dangerous, always doing his thing and never getting it.
Those did not fail though - it was revealed in book that was around 3rd or 4th edition he was already doing 13 shopping trips, with each Black Crusade working towards overall goal and succeding with one secret goal... which I still find bullshitty since why call those 13 actions black crusades then and not... 13 operations?
The problem with Abaddon. Is that he's an adapt commander. He's infact, an incredible commander. He manages to bring together legions of rabbit mobs into a cohesive fighting force. But that is also the problem. He essentially leads rabid mobs who have little more discipline than Orks!
They basically fixed Abaddon when they retconned the 13th black crusade. The failbaddon stuff was from him failing every black crusade, but now he was successful at his real objectives, and the wars were just smokescreen. That and his old model was made shitty and fell apart.
@@AliceBowieThe retcons are embarassing. You cant just turn all those failures into "hurr durr actually I had secret objectives" its desperate cope from GW to make him look competent
@@joesheridan9451well its not really. While the ground troops might fall in line. The lords are all power hungry and their subordinates are also power hungry. They all want the favour of their particular god. To have the charisma to bring some sort of order to chaos itself would be a challenge in itself.
Even then, literally every other character in the book were better than him. I've haven't gotten very far in the Horus Heresy series (only up to Mechanicus) but I could tell that he was very incompetant at his job, specifically with his conversation and tantrum with Slau Dha. It makes you think, "is this really the person we look through thru most of the book?" I still love Legion because Hurtado Bronzi and all of the back and forth of the Alpha Legion, but damn was Grammaticus underwhelming.
@@jacobthompson9181 The excessive focus on John Gramaticus killed my interest in Legion. I loved the Hurtado Bronzi parts, but once I got the tent fight part I had lost all will to continue listening to the book
16:29 I'm the singular Mortarion defender. I actually like the idea of Morty being a hypocritical douchebag. I genuinely thought for the longest time that was how he was supposed to be as a character even though it probably wasn't, idk man I just find his hypocrisy fascinating to read and watch unfold. Characters being hypocritical isn't something explored that much in fiction maybe because it's such a hated trait when seen in real life. I'm not going to say he's misunderstood or in the right because he isn't and I love him for that he's just a disgusting sore loser who's own bitterness blinds him and makes him angry at people who ultimately don't deserve it. And the fact he's such a piss head makes it so Nurgle his "patron" actually punishes him and the fact he prefers Typhus (the goat) over him is really funny and cool imo. Guilliman being reived and lighting the Garden of Nurgle is still fucking bullshit btw had to get that in.
You are not alone one thing I like is how Morty actually does have some good in him, the reason he even surrendered to Nurgle was to spare his legion of an eternity of suffering.
@@blizzardgaming7070not to mention that at the time, Morty actually knew very little about Chaos or the warp. I think based upon that, it's safe to say he probably had little notion that the intelligence with which he was pleading meant "numbness to everything and despair" when it promised mercy. Therefore, he is rather disillusioned with his Patron and this pisses Nurgle off. I have a theory that the only reason why the Emperor would ever make any allusions to redemption in conversation with Morty WHILE HES LITERALLY BURNING DOWN NURGLES GARDEN are those of Morty's resentment and disillusionment with Nurgle actually creates a space fir the Emperor to burn Nurgles influence from Mortys godsoul.
In which aspect was Mortarion a hypocrite except the creation of the plague planet, and that one time he used his psychic powers (which he was literally forced to)
I feel like even Lucius' reviving power wouldn't be so irritating, if it would just be done right. But that story with him getting blown up by a landmine and the factory worker who build that landmine becoming the new Lucius because he took pride in his work is what made me hate the character. The guy didn't know Lucius and didn't take pride in killing him, but just doing his work. This is total BS and for the people who say: "Oh but it's Chaos it's in the name that they don't play by the rules"- just no. Chaos does follow certain rules (like demons can't exist in the materium for to long when not bound to something physical, how blanks and souls work, etc.). Also, it's just bad worldbuilding to create a rule and then brake it with no explanation.
I mean I thought it was pretty clearly established that Slaanesh doesn’t have to play by the laws of the universe, sure there’s a “rule” to his revival, but when had the Chaos Gods ever needed to follow constraints? people just can’t seem to accept that he’s going to stick around as long as he keeps Slaanesh’s favor, or, for out of universe reasoning, GW finds it opportune to get rid of him
@@jasonravenscroft5321 Then GW should just say that Slaneesh keeps respawning Lucius just cause. The Emperor did the same with Guilliman and doesn't need some convoluted explanation that is immediatly dropped anyway.
@@arnekrug939not to mention, it plants really weird questions like... "If Lucius is stabbed, why does he reincarnate in the person who stabbed him instead of on whoever made the knife he was stabbed with? If he falls into lava, does the lava reinvarnate into Lucius? What stops Lucius from butchering planets by reincarnating everyone into Lucius?"
Wasn't the land mine story written because the author read a 'how can you kill Lucuis' reddit thread and wanted to 'nuh uh, he's everything proof' the result the fans came up with? Which I'd argue is even 'worse' world building than just pulling things out of your backside...
I only noticed one material oversight: you forgot to include Erebus. For some incomprehensible (read: “Tzeentchian”) reason I only heard him placed once, and as we all know Erebus occupies all of the most-hated positions on any tier list. As penance/remedial training you are to report to the nearest Chaos world not of your choice where you are to sit in the red/pink/purple joint venture chair between our taskmaster father Khorne and the loving embrace of our mother Slaneesh. Training will continue until time starts in the Warp. You will be encouraged to take numerous breaks, with refreshments provided by our grandfather using his most recently developed recipes.
The only book I've read with John Grammaticus so far is Legion and he didn't come across as *entirely* unlikable there, and you can sympathize with his situation of basically being a pawn for a group of xenos who hate him and humanity and being unable to actually live a life of his choosing with meaningful relationships. It also was a fun little narrative twist that this man who is painted as a master infiltrator and manipulator gets absolutely outplayed by the Alpha Legion who end up rubbing salt in the wounds that the two characters in the story he was developing a friendship and an intimate relationship with were playing him to set him up to fail in a very humiliating turn of events. Oddly enough, my problem with John isn't so much that he's a perpetual (mileage on that varies a lot), or his characterization in Legion, it's the fact he seems to have these weird powers that don't seem to have any drawback or Warp peril, like he can instantly learn a language and adopt any accent, and he can basically Jedi mind trick people into believing what they want him to believe ("Don't you recognize me? I'm so and so" and the character often believes him). Having weird and wonderful powers can really make or break a character, so it's best to make it feel like it's something earned or has tangible consequences. Which leads me to how much I despise the whole concept of Lucius. I don't like the Emperor's Children in general because they are portrayed as extremely arrogant better-than-thou peacocks and I don't enjoy Slaanesh aesthetics as much as other Chaos factions, but his whole greatest swordsman in the galaxy schitck is often proven wrong by other characters and his taking over bodies power removes any sense of consequence from him and the knowledge that you can't have other characters fight him where the fight doesn't end up with a draw or Lucius surviving because it would mean the character that killed him becomes him. And it goes so far as random artillery shell hits him, the person who took pride in manufacturing the shell becomes Lucius. About the only way he can die without body swapping is just some freak natural disaster or incident where no other people are involved. A boulder falls on him. His ship navigates directly into an uncharted black hole. A volcano erupts. Something, anything. I don't even know if Tyranids can kill him without there being some dumb justification of "the Mawloc who ate him whole felt satisfied at its meal and now Lucius is the Mawloc", and I don't know if he can become a Necron being soulless machines who are absolutely full of pride and ego. It just ends up making Lucius this character that has no stakes, has an insufferable personality, while simultaneously becomes a setting punching bag like the Swarmlord and the Avatar of Khaine because if you have a character that comes back, you can write it losing again and again and again.
Plot Armor is one of the tihings that makes me at least lose interest in a character and in some cases despise him, no matter the faction he rapresents.
Been re-reading/listening to the ultramarine omnibus, since they released it on audio recently, and man that second book is full of the 'incompetence' problem. It ironically ended up making the tyranids seem like relatively mild threats, because the imperials were making so many stupid decisions throughout that, if they hadn't made, would've allowed them to easily defeat the hive fleet. Insanely dumb things like "hmmm... I see those tyranids are, instead of attacking the space refinery, that we've improvised into a fleet-destroying bomb, like they did last time, this time they've instead attached themselves to it and are dragging it towards our fleet... hmm... very odd... oh well, good thing tyranids are stupid bugs who can't think so they must be doing this for a random reason or something! now then, time for me to turn my head in this other direction and get really busy with something else for a few minutes until it's too late". Although most the characters who do that stuff die as a result, so.
10 bucks says he put john Grammaticus on here. As for why someone hates someone thing, when a character has the power to put undue influence on the plot and hi jacks it from a other wise desirable direction. Obviously their acceptations. It boils down to how fun the character can be. As for John i'm not saying your wrong but your the only guy i know who hates him. Not disagreeing at all, just saying.
14:19 drago reminds me of the “can he beat goku” power scaling memes. I just recently got into warhammer 40k (mainly because of the orks) and I’ve been enjoying all the lore so far.
The only thing I'd disagree with is that Lucius is hated. It's kinda worse than that. By making him so overpowered and unable to die they've removed him. He's irrelevant as he can't fight well written characters since he'll either kill them or die and kill them anyways. Much like kaldor draigo he's forced to just go off and doodle in the background since no one can do anything with him in any kind of impactful way.
Has he not had his head deep in his hatred for psycher, Morty and his son would have been a good allies for the loyalist. I mean the guy can basically be the equipvalent of Grey Knight before Grey Knight exist with his Legion using their war crime weapon on daemon 'cause Daemons are not people.
Kaldor Draigo in the lore I am a god slayer and singlehandedly defeated a demon primarch Kaldor Draigo in 10th Ed tabletop. I rolled too many 1s now I’m dead before I can do anything
Erda is a perpetual who is three powerful psykers who merged and became one. She was one of the group of perpetuals (including Malcador and Ollanius Pius) who joined the Emporer in his plans to reunite and lead humanity. She took longer than Ollanius to realize the Emporer was going to lead humanity to destruction. I don't love or hate her or her part in the story. It is pretty random but it does make sense if you pick up on the clues and it fills in the missing part of the story where somehow the chaos gods managed to fling the primarchs across the galaxy.
I don't really hate Lucius... in the medical field I worked with addicts and he is a great example of an addict that had literally EVERYTHING GOING FOR HIM IN LIFE and he still became an addict... just give Lucius better writers, giving a bad or mediocre writer a JUNKY is like giving them a pass to be cliche, predictable, and corny. The Faultless Blade book taps into his issues a bit better than most books just making him a typecast badguy, like a second in command Starscream type of nuisance despicable character.... Lucius is the Tyrone BIggums of WarHammer 40K... Give Lucius to ABD or Guy Haley... we will love him...
Erebus is hated because he is super OP. He easily fools primarchs. Everything just works out just the way he wants it regardless of his actions. Even when he messes up it still works out. His plan was also very simple and should not have worked.
Being a devil's advocate for Erda without being a fan of it, putting all the blame for the Horus heresy is, in my humble opinion, quite silly because the actions of the traitor primarchs are due to several factors, not only the planet, but also the treatment of the emperor, his other brothers, the empire, the gods of chaos and even his legionaries, not to mention that the emperor had already chosen those planets in advance among all the things he did to them, I say he is well known as a terrible father, Robute himself has said it. Clearly, again, she as a character is meh to me and I understand the complaints about how she was implemented into the story, but to say that it was her fault in something more complex is not to see the entire scene of the saga. PS: I don't know if you named Horus by accident but saying that he fell on his planet is wrong because it is one that we know the basics of his story on his adopted planet, the great crusade for sure but little in Cthonia.
I like Kaldor Draigo exactly for how tough mofo he is. Yes, he is a Mary Sue, but his curse evens it out. Tough as nails, but forced to roam The Warp, returning to the materium only for brief amounts of time.
I kinda like Watch Commander Artemis for the same reason I love Imperial Fists. Never change the plan. If something is decided then it will be done or we'll die trying. (Also, "hey monkeigh, we are doing a huge ritual. It will save the galaxy trust us. Why? Can't say but please let us do it pretty please?" how surprising the commander of forces of the Ordo Xenos didn't fall for it). Loved the video.
In my view the Emperor of Mankind is one of the main antagonist for humanity. The means he used to reach his goals were not only actively evil they were self-destructive to the end goals. The only good thing about him is that justly burns every moment of everyday in psychic flames of the pyre he lite for himself.
Do you really think that people reading nowadays BL pseudo-Marvel bs (or watching fanboy vids made by hyper nervous teens on speed) are even going to understand what you are saying? You have officially qualified as too intelligent for the shitshow that 40k has become ever since they decided to translate the HH from glorious mythology into bland comicbook-brained reality.
I’m Surprised Morty is here, I haven’t heard of anyone hating on him before. Yeah he’s a petty hypocrite, but I feel like it works for him because of how much of a supervillain he becomes when he ascends to Daemonhood. He’s a god damn Captain Planet villain dressed up like the fucking grim reaper, a perfect fit for Nurgle’s more comedic angle compared to the other Gods and chaos as a whole. He’s Grandfathers Stinkiest Soldier and I think he’s fun :)
You clearly don't understand caldor's power. You see, he's one of the suns in the warp, the one who provides the hams and the one whose beard is filled with tiny men. If you plug these into a proper equation then the root of the cubed square of smooth per onions clearly shows that his power is at least equal to that of 90 purple!
Honestly heres a fun idea how to deal with Lucious. Have a bunch of grey knights pin him down and send out a random PDF soldier to exicute him. Then restrain the PDF soldier in a containment cell designed to deal with high priority targets, that way when Lucious curse kicks in he is trapped in a cell. Preferabbly he would be tranfwred to the black cells of Tera at that point.
Pre-imperium terran warlords are fun because they hammer home that the Emperor wasn't any better than them, he just happened to be stupidly powerful. And he would use that power to inflict worse atrocities upon the whole galaxy.
I talked to my friend that is reading the heresy about how much he'll hate John, he googled art of him and just by that drawing of him with that dumb ahh smug look he said "yup, i already despise him"
I will always love Artemis solely because he got Eldrad, let alone the Eldar, to beg and plead. If you know anything about either one you that is simply not something the knifes ears do. He actually got Eldar tge be honest and straight forward about done and not by pompous, condescending, or arrogant about it. Also the fact even after being told Slaanesh would die he still said yes is just hilarious to me. Also John Gramadicus. Oh how I wanted to line that character. You have no idea. GW, why are you like this? Also no Cato Sicarius?
I, Cato Sicarius, am appalled that you think that I, Cato Sicarius, would appear on such list as I, Cato Sicarius, am a beloved character for many people
And that is the dumbest thing writer or at least the top.5 things that's just hot garbage. Stupid character followed by the lamest battle ever. It should have been a slaanesh force not some idiotic deathwatch force
HH biggest mistake was the need they felt to retcon how the primarchs got yeeted. They never should have changed the chaos gods did it. Simple and clean. Imo Erda was fine existing as she for me helped bridge the gap between the Angel and the primarchs. But the yeeting of the primarchs? Fuck that.
You forgot to add the planet one primarch not just landed on but was thrust into its core and had to crawl his way out off...only to be consumed by its darkness and become a ghastly psychopathic murderer.
What would you say if GW pivots from Abaddon to Huron Blackheart or Perturabo as being the figurehead of chaos? Both in my opinion would be more effective in the respective role.
Perturabo as warmaster? No, I don't really think he wants to lead a bunch of chaos-corrupted space marines with 0 discipline. Pretty sure he just wants to do his own thing. Huron as warmaster? Hell yeah.
I really think Perturabo would really be unsuitable to lead chaos for a number of reasons. 1. He is a terrible leader, sure he can strategise well but the IW follow him because he’s their Primarch and no other reason, like half of them turned against him. EG those that refused to genocide Olympia, Barajas Dantioch and other IW who were scattered in garrisons. If he can barely keep his own legion together there’s no chance he can organise a Black Crusade. 2. I really don’t think he gives a shit, he’s stuck himself on Mdrenguard and he’s stuck building up his shit, he isn’t half as motivated as say Abbadon to bring down the Imperium. TLDR: Not even his own legion likes him, much less the self serving warbands that make up Chaos, and he doesn’t care enough to do so.
I understand the writing problems, but it's not like erda could have possibly known the planets they'd land on. Correct me if I'm wrong. Also, we all just totally ignore the insane mistreatment by the Emperor.
I love Mortarion he is my favorite Primarch and it seems the character traits that makes people hate him are the same ones that make me love him (plus is got a cool design and the best fall of all the traitors). Mortarion main character traits is that he takes bad or ilogical decision for personal reason that he tryes rationalise wich is very human (and those bad decision come to bite him). It's painfully obvious that Mortarion hated the Emperor almost on principle because the Emperor reaped is life goal just to force him to do something else but he can't be like Angron and admit that. And for that he gains nothing is reward for being a traitor is to be on the side he hates and to get betrayed by one of is sons he then become a chaos prince of nurgle to save is legion and is now in perpetual pain because unlike most of nurgles follower he asen't embraced despair yet. (One of the only villain to get what he deserves whilst still showing that there might be hope for him)
Abbadon plot armor is about getting his ass kicked to near death state but each time escaping thanks to warp teleportation with classic vilan "I will return and make you regret this humiliation you put on me!!!" trope
Kaldor Draigo should meet his end with Fulgrim's return. Fulgrim also had his true name used against him, it would be fitting to have wait for that then find away to use that against him. Then take out his heart, Fulgrim writes his own name on it, sends it to Mortarion just to piss him off. Also haven't read a Thousand Sons yet but did Othere Wyrdmake at least suggest they instead try to learn Rune Pirest way as a compromise, or is Fenris just special just because?
In answer to your question; in the book the "exchange" spoken about in the video was arranged by Ferris and Magnus to better understand the other. Its mentioned in the book that Othere begins to teach Ahriman the ways of the runes and in exchange Ahriman demonstrates the "tutalaries" a teacher of sorts, which is described as benign deamon entities that the thousand sons use to understand the warp, which freaks Othere the fuck out and his wolves (not wolves). there is alot conveyed but not explained FULLY but its a really good book.
Maybe not a popular opinoo , but I like mortarion, mostly cause I like how his upbringing wroght his character and his seething hatred for the emperor ever since day one is actually understandable but I haven't read enough to actually defend him with well formulated arguments (he is still in my top 3 favourite primarchs though, i will die on this hill) but a character I wanted to see in this top ten was iskandar khayon (or however it's spelled) I don't know if it was retconned or clarified in any way but a thousand sons pskyer wielding a space wolf axe just because he's cool and stronger than his nerdy peers just feel stupid and deprives him of what makes the thousand sons actually interesting, that plus the fact that he made Magnus kneel are unacceptable levels of fanfic... He is kaldor draigo levels of bullshit
I hate how Horus was able to fight the Emperor while using one of the most impractical armors around. I mean, the dude had his head practically inside a box...
The reason GW doesn't want to kill off Lucius is because the writers are scared he will take over their body afterwards.
Loooool
It's sad that a character like Lucius gets to stick around while Yarrick is killed off screen.
@@robertnelson9599 YARRICK WAS WHAT?!
@@robertnelson9599 idk about you, but personally i like Lucius. He is really fun and interesting, his body swap ability really tarnished his reputation sadly.
Q
my main hope for space marine 2 is that Titus gets to kill a chaos corrupted Leandros in a lovely turn of irony
MANIFEST MANIFEST MANIFEST
Lolz
Chaos corruption is too good for him. Make Gene Stealers infect him.
@@BIGESTblade well in that game it'd be tzeentch, so I say close up his mouth and make his eyes tentacles
Also I would love to kick erebus in space marine 2
Emperors flaw is to many cooks ruins the soup. To many authors have taken a crack at him, making him almost bipolar with how he acts.
100% but that’s not just the emperor that’s loads of characters
@@joesheridan9451 ands that’s the issue. You don’t have an emperor character you have an emperor role. Their is basically no fundamental character besides big man in gold with physique power
@@bombvoyage5686He’s saying that issue is not exclusive to Big E, other characters like Perturabo can be very different depending on who’s writing it.
@@bombvoyage5686His personality is arrogant Reddit atheist
Kinda bringing him back full circle to his first depiction in the Inquisition Wars trilogy...
"So racist he said 'fuck it, im taking the galaxy with me'" is one of the funniest things I've heard in a while
I don't hate Artemis, this is all the Eldar's fault by not playing nice with humanity.
@@robertnelson9599 do you play nice with the vermin infesting your home?
I like Mortarion. He's pathetic. He's never been portrayed as anything other than pathetic. And he's got a really cool design.
Fr he is my favorite primarch
It could've been played better, especially in 40k, if he just realized how much of a dick he was, succumbed to despair, and accepted Nurgle out of "Death is the silent judge over all, and we cannot escape it. So let's embrace it." At least after the whole Plague Change episode.
Granted, it is possible Nurgle kinda tweaked his personality via his gifts post-ascension to turn him further to his ways. B/
He’s just a punching bag who continuously compromises his morals to justify his poor decision making. Everyone sees him for what he is (and isn’t) and nobody has ever liked him, not even his own legion.
@@gtr5973 Some in the Death Guard genuinely hate him, but from what I've gathere, they are the minority. You are spot on about his morals and decision making though.
Like father, like son, I guess? ;)
@@gtr5973well he actually did kill Guilliman during the plague wars and Guilliman only one because the Emperor got involved. So I wouldn’t say he’s a punching bag. He also defeated the Khan and his legion was one of the few that had any form of Cohesion(ironic I know) after the heresy.
All in all he’s pretty solid other than his hypocritical morality
Just starting the video, John Grammaticus is gonna be number 1 isn’t he?
NUH UH
@@livefromtheblacklibrary number 2 behind Lucius?
@@livefromtheblacklibraryOH YOU GODDAMNED LIER
@@Dredgenvore😂😂😂
Grammaticus is fine in Legion. Everything else with him sucks.
How i would fix Kaldor Draigo:
1. Have him inherit the Noble shard of Magnus (Like it's passed down from each Grandmaster of the Gray Knights to the other)
2. Open up his final battle with M'kar with: "Have you ever eaten... a tangerine?"
On the shard of Magnus...
It is?? Where?? Give me the lore!
Have Lucius and Kaldor kill each other
@@bigtastyben5119 the problem is Lucius can be reborn if Draigo take the pride.
Ok, that would be just great!!!😂😂😂
@@Warmaster2001 he humiliated a primarch he would find it easy
The idea of the mother of the Primarchs is incredibly cool but they dropped the ball with her.
There may be no way to save Erda as a character.
She thinks she is better than normal humans and threw the Primarchs into the Warp just so the Emperor could not use them as generals. There is no redeeming her.
@robertnelson9599 Throwing them into the Warp was wrong. Keeping them from the Emperor is not. Remember, the Emperor and the Imperium aren't things to admire.
@@DewayneMcClure-bm2pj hear hear
There are no good guys in 40k, but I'd rather choose than any other latter option.
Plus no one knows what the big E really wanted or planned for.
Also erda is basically erebus 2.0. That and a space karen
@@degalrants7968 Erebus partially redeemed himself by killing Erda.
I think another very common reason people will hate a character is the dissonance between how the author wants us to feel about a character and how they actually come off. To use an easy example from your list, Dan Abnett clearly wants us to sympathize with Erda's position and actions, but outside the fact that Perteptuals REALLY suck the life out of any scene they show up in, she comes off very high and mighty despite basically causing the entire heresy. It's a failure of the author get the audience to feel what we're supposed to.
I'd argue that this is the main reason why I end up hating a character. Like, I roll my eyes and get annoyed by characters who are incompetent or badly power scaled. I might even get frustrated by them. But when the story tries to tell me that I'm supposed to like Little Miss Useless Pants even though all she does is make trouble for the heroes by trying to help, or that I'm supposed to side with Gary Stu the Edgy Badass over his friend Jim the Underdog Comic Relief Guy, then I start HATING.
Another good example of this is “Velma” from the Velma show. Where the show writers try to make “Velma” this sarcastic misunderstood smart girl, a genius detective who gets uncredited for her detective work. But instead they wrote an unlikeable racist psychopath who cares about no one but herself, and is actually an idiot and terrible detective since the only clues that helped forward the mystery were thrown at her or found by another character, whereas all she accomplished by herself was accused two innocent people of murder based on extremely circumstantial evidence.
Kor Phaeron really deserves an honourable mention.
The most impressive thing he's ever done besides cause the Horus Heresy (he was helped by Erebus on that one) amounts to surviving a punch from Guilliman.
@@discountplaguedoctor88 A punch a normal Astartes would have died to. Kor Phaeron is not even a true space marine, he is a fake like Luther. Also he beat up Lorgar when he was growing up.
Another reason to hate Kor Phaeron is he used to beat Lorgar when Lorgar showed up on Colchis. The only reason he is alive is because Lorgar saved his life and Kor Phaeron is still an a$$hole to Lorgar.
100% with you on Mortarion over Russ. I say this as a Death Guard and Space Wolf player. The burning of Prospero while a stupid act is tragic and adds flavour to both the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves as factions.
Russ was deceived by Horus but a little too keen to go all in and Magnus was too arrogant to step back and admit fault. Just two completely opposite personality types at loggerheads.
Russ in general you get the impression he tries to do the right thing but is blinded by pride or wrath.
Mortarion on the other hand was so completely damaged by his upbringing that his dislike of psychers alienated him from his true father and siblings.
Agreed and I say this as a Wolf hater. Russ is INFINITELY more compelling than Mortarion ever was.
i think a better motivation for Mortarian and the Death Guard is having them start off as great idealists and as time goes on the reality of the galaxy and the imperium bears down on them, until eventually they conclude that the imperium, and to a lesser extent humanity, is doomed and turn to chaos to destroy the imperium as a form of mercy kill, with the idea that while destroying the imperium is bad, letting the imperium sit and rot into nothingness is even worse
The impression o get from shitman is hes braindead and literally couldnt wall left of he was ordered to by the emperor
@@berilsevvalbekret772literally no
Finally, someone that gives some credits to Russ for Propero instead of blindingly blame him for everything despite that fact that out of all the big players, he probably fucked up the least.
Kill lucius. That is all (he could've been well written but nooo)
YEAH I LIKE HIM IN THE HERESY BUT NOOOOOOO OP SUPER ARMOUR
Feed him to Abominatus
Have a huge rock fall on him. Dies without being killed by anyone.
@@AliceBowie Suddenly, a shard of the C'Tan responsible for destroying the star who's remnants became the planet starts giggling manically while suggestively caressing his tesseract prison walls...
Have him be killed by like a random nid with 0 build up. Death from an important character would be too impressive for him
Heres a fun idea for Lucius since he can't die whenever he is in a battlefield there is a legion of the damned hunting him and when he eventually kills the marine he realises its Tarvitz soul and since you know Legion of the damned is basically a daemon of the emperor he cannot resurect from killing tarvitz again so he has to be vigilant all the time.
I like this... if a legion of the damned pulled a Corvus v. Lorgar on Lucius (Corvus Corax spends his time hunting Lorgar)... Here's why it would make Lucius more interesting... HE IS 24/7 trying to procure drugs for himself and his mates... so to add a TERMINATOR following him constantly would make every single LUCIUS book a stalker-esque high tension story... Brilliant!! Cheers bro! GW could pull this off for several books and rehash a character everybody hates... Imagine a scene where Lucius finds drugs but the dealer is silent and just wears a cloak... cloak comes off, flame on! I'll leave the rest to imagination.
@@qigonglungz It doesn't have to be a legion of the damned. It's just has to be something Lucius cannot kill or die to.
Lucius can get killed pretty easily by any long range ordnance. Carpet bomb some marines. He dies in the blast along with dozens of others, bomber has no idea who he’s just killed.
@@deifiedtitan Yea the bomber would still turn into Lucius. Remember even Necrons aren't immune to his curse. 'Not even the mechanical Necrons are immune from this curse, as the Phasing Sword has learned.' Codex CSM 8th edition.
permanently killing off a character
but even loyalist guardsmen are immortal if they have a name
no wonder the setting is worth less every day, people desire dumb marvelmovies so much
when was the last time a novel didnt end in a clear imperial victory of pure boredom
Its me, I am the most Hated, Me Alph- i mean Malal.
GET HIM GW! HES A COPYRIGHT LIABILITY
@@livefromtheblacklibraryTHEY WILL RUN OUT OF MONEY EVENTUALLY AND I WILL RETURN
“Have you ever eaten a tangerine?”
10:30 on Failbaddon, we romanians have a saying "asta e tot ce sa putut"/"this is all that could have been done" on the sense that we did the best possible with what was given but even the possible is not good,it also means that things could have been also worse.
That’s really cool! That’s for sharing 👀 and yeah that def applies
As TTS says... Emperor needs a Father/sons reunion, even the corrupt ones! And have a talk
What I find funny about Lucius is that his suit of armour doesn’t even belong to him.
Lucius the Eternal was killed by another member of the Emperor’s Children mid-heresy. He wasn’t even their best fighter! Slannesh just found him funny and let him live!
That would be a funny end to Lucious. Slaanesh telling him that he was but a fool for her amusement before torturing his soul for all eternity.
He was killed by a Raven guard mid heresy*
@@joesheridan9451 No, this was a different death. He was whacked in a duel with a Lord Commander of the EC also. He came back, wearing the hapless Lord Commander’s armour.
In Artemis' defense:
1. Eldar have this very nice habit of manipulating and hurting literally everyone else in order to save themselves.
2. Eldrad is somehow infamous for being a manipulator in a species of manipulators
3. Didnt his ritual involve sacrificing an entire planet of humans hoping that the ritual would work?
also in Artemis' defense:
4. even if the ritual did work as intended, how could he be sure that such a deity that is capable of defeating Slaanesh wouldn't one day turn on humanity? especially at the will of the Eldar of all races! (who seek to destroy the imperium to rebuild their old empire)
You say eldar have a habit of hurting people to save themselves, which is true… But the imperium have a habit of just flat out hurting people. So get off your high horse
In the 40k setting's defense. HE STOPPED THE ELDAR FROM KILLING SLAANESH!
@@joesheridan9451 Uh, the reason the Imperium "hurts people" is to save themselves... if they don't enforce an authoritarian militaristic regime they will be destroyed by Xenos, Chaos, and their own corrupted citizens.
In Artemis' defense: Eldar are stinky.
I actually really love Mortarion, but it's hard to explain why in a RUclips comment. The short version is, if the right author is writing him, he can be a genuinely sad character with a lot of pathos. There just aren't a lot of authors interested in writing him well; instead he gets used as a cardboard cutout for the protagonist/the author's favorite character so often that it's impossible for most people to look past. But (some of) the stories told from his perspective show that his hypocrisy doesn't sit well with him either. He hates himself, too.
Completely agree, despite the lack of good moments he’s had, he is still way more interesting than the characters that constantly get glorified and shown in the spotlight.
the problem with a lot of character is that the imperium has to be the marvel superhero
leaving no room for chaos victories and definitely not even a page dedicated to humanizing them
your not allowed to see from their perspective, to empathize with how broken they are yet still trying, because then you might consider the imperium not the good guy for a moment
and modern gw just cant have that
Another thing is that him becoming a Hypocrite wasn’t his fault necessarily(though his hands are definitely not clean), his morals were just very ill-suited to how events were panning out, that’s the best way I can describe it. He had psychic powers but because of how his adoptive father treated him he suppressed them but would be forced to use them again to save his sons. He joined Horus to kill the Emperor who he saw as no better than his adoptive father(and in fairness he is right to an extent) a Psyker tyrant who was only out for power and to use everyone around him to gain it(granted this was rather because of his own personal feelings rather than wanting humanity to be free of the emperor) but then Horus and the rest of the traitors would turn out to be using Daemons, the warp and tyranny.
Over and over again Mortarion tried to follow his superhero code, trying to be a sort of Superman figure In a way but he is just unable to do that due to how everything around him was playing out. granted he made a lot of the choices that put him in those positions, I’m not going to pretend he is a complete victim and Morty can’t see the future and let’s not forget everytime someone has Manipulated Morty. but I’m not sure what else I would do if I were in Mortarion position and in the end he himself did become just like his father and he hates himself for that and yet still puts in a good shift for Nurgle because now he has no choice and he rebels against Nurgle constantly but any and all morals he had were basically Null at this point. That is the tragedy of Mortarion from my perspective.
What I hate about Lucius isn't just his power, it's the fact he's incompetently written, like a "Crumby OC" like what you called Kaldor
It's basically a "random bullshit ability". I think it would be more compelling that this blessing is also an legitimate curse by Slaanesh.
He literally uses this to get himself killed. That is NOT going to please the "Prince of perfection".
It's more like a Tzeenchinian ability because 1. It's an ability suited best for infiltration. 2. Tzeentch is the god of change and mutation.
Lucius is hated because of the ridiculous reasons he’s survived which is I find amusing how ridiculous it is
Kaldor I’ll pass but only if a certain theory is true about him otherwise yeah it’s ridiculous
Before Lucius was "blessed" by She Who Thirsts he had no choice like everybody else but to fight to stay alive but at least be the greatest at it. Since becoming essentially immortal what does he have to do anymore but figuratively get under his opponent's skin, die, then literally get under their skin? If he is written well enough towards his end he could stand as an example of what happens when someone so bright becomes lazy.
I have the same problem with Abaddon and Lorgar when reading something out of Black Library. ;/
@@kaitracksmalgomTTS saved the fandom's opinion of Draigo, but that's not the same character.
Grammaticus sounds like a self insert/Gary Stue kind of character… it never works and we seem through the thin veneer of importance/desperation.
You did a wonderful job in explaining why characters become hated, the incompetence/refusal to see reason and power scaling, if the two come together it is fatal.
Erda is fanfic. Abnett sometimes tosses ideas in that you have to ignore.
Instead of killing her, it should have been revealed that she didn't have anything to do with the primarchs, and was just a possessed psyker perpetual.
Erda rules
It's not fanfic when written by GW, but you do not have to like it. However, Malcador is still "Uncle Mal'" in my book.
To me, the whole Erda thing further shows Big E. wasn't perfect, aka just as human as the rest of us. 😎
Imagine if John Gramaticus is the one Horus kills on the Vengeful Spirit before the Emperor obliterates him.
Nah it's gonna be loken
Ol?
That could be surprising, but Loken dying to Horus would be a massive plot twist. 😮
Malcador in a mommy shirt reading in fat letters: "Got Milk?" 😂😂
I don't know if I'm the only person who likes Mortarion, but I think that it made his story more dramatic that he had to use the psychic powers that he hated so much and that he became the servant of Nurgle even though he didn't really support Chaos at first and joined his forces to save his legion from Nurgles plagues. I think that this was a really interesting character development.
Agreed! Big Mortarion fan. Mortarion can be a really sad character in the hands of the right author, and McNeill isn't the right author for him.
James swallow paints a good picture of him in my eyes. The buried dagger was good, also listening to the flight of the Eisenstein right now.
I also really grew to like him in the Plague wars. He was very tactical and a very competent leader. When he Typhus and Cugath Plaguefather were having a meeting Typhus wanted to cut at the Lion’s body(attack random planets in ultramar) whistle Mortarion wanted to cut off the lions head.
I was more in agreement with Mortarion here, “what is a king without a kingdom?” Typhus asked, oh you mean just 500 planets compared to the millions upon millions within the Imperium that Guilliman now owns completely? If anything the destruction of Ultramare would have just made Guillimans resolve all that stronger.
Mortarions plan to kill Guilliman was definitely well thought out and would have definitely been a lot more damaging to the Imperium. Mortarion managed to capture Guilliman at one point and genuinely had the Primarch at the pointy end of Silence. In their next battle where they are not interrupted. Mortarion injects Guilliman with the godblight and actually does kill Guilliman. If the emperor hadn’t intervened on both those occasions than it’s safe to say that Mortarion would have won.
Completely agree. I think people confuse "internalized hatred due to years of abuse" and "petulant hypocrite" for some reason.
"Incompetence"
All Path of Eldar protagonists: You called?
Honestly Erda could’ve worked if they had tied her story into the time-travel shenanigans Horus had gotten up to earlier in the series. IIRC, I’m one of the early Heresy books, he and his honor guard entered a warp rift and wound up in the gestation chamber of the Primarchs. They then damage the protective wards in the room, sending the pods into space.
If her story had just been altered so that she was trying to send them to a civilized world but Horus screwed that up, then I think she would’ve more accepted
Edit: correction, it was Lorgar. Oh course, it was
Maybe they could’ve made it so that she originally helped made the primachs to be builders of society, but after she found out what the emperor was planning to do with them, she took the primachs on a ship intending to hide on a distant planet to raise the primachs herself away from the emperor and his dreams of conquest, however chaos sucked her ship into the warp and demons tried to take the primachs but Elda used her power to bring the primachs back to reality and save them from the warp, but she became imprisoned in the warp and later she would be found and saved by russ
I'm surprised you didn't' mention Belisarius Cawl.
Back in 2017, people absolutely hated him for pulling Primaris Marines out of his arse, improving on The Emperor's works, etc.
I think that makes him quite interesting. He is an arrogant prick, everyone really wants him to fail, but he is a fucking genius.
The fact that people hates primaris is another question (which I don't share, but that is not the point)
All the fellas hate Othere Wyrdmake, he broke the bestest boy Ahriman’s heart. The sorcerer can’t handle that much stress, he’s literally just a lil guy
Also a complete bigot because he's a psyker himself
"The mortals ponder why I chose him as my champion....even my servants question his place in the great game....they say it is because of his ability to wield magic like no other, his mistakes that molded his whole legion....and for once I speak truth without riddles... I chose him because he has something, something even the sons of the Anathema lack now, that is..... *hope* , *hope* to *change* , to find the Laughing God's black library, to reverse his brothers' state, to fix his mistakes.... that is why I chose him......"
-Tzeentch, Chaos God of Change
The space wolves having psykers that practice sorcery and call it rune priesting is ridiculous. Not that they believe it. But it should have been obvious to everyone else.
1000 sons are literally the worst legion hands down
I don't hate Othere, he's a bit of an arse but the Thousand Sons had daemons for pets. That's a pretty horrifying idea, especially when they don't know it.
Khaldor Dreigo must have a significant fragment of Magnus in him- similar to the former Grandmaster Janus. Otherwise it just doesnt work lmao
One of the reasons I personally dislike Leandros is because we've seen this plot point done before, but in a much better way. While I can't confirm anything, I really do feel that Space Marine took at least some inspiration from the Uriel Ventris books in how it portrayed the Ultramarines' dynamic and opinions on the codex and unorthodox, potentially problematic tactics. In the Ventris series, he and his sergeant Pasanius are charged with numerous flagrant violations of the codex by sergeant Learchus, who genuinely believed that some of the things they were getting up to were too risky and gross breaches of chapter tactics, whereas they saw them as necessary. This leads to Learchus reporting his captain and fellow sergeant, but he genuinely feels bad about it, and is only doing it out of a sense of duty, and when the two are being exiled he's the only member of their company willing to face them on their walk of shame, and the 3 make it clear there are no hard feelings, but wish things could have been different. Naturally Uriel and Pasanius make it back and everyone is friends again, but I feel the fact that despite doing essentially the same thing as Leandros, Learchus is still able to reforge a bond with his former captain upon his return is telling (I highly doubt things will be as pleasant with Leandros).
Well Lean boi reported his captain to the inquisition literally by passing what the Codex even said to do so not only is he a book slut, he is also a hypocrite. Hope that dude got vored by a space bug or is a forever corporal that is never going to get promoted.
"Decided to doom all sentient life through sheer force of racism"
A B S O L U T E L Y B A S E D
Uncle Ruckus: well well well
Lucius is that 12 year old who loses the game then says,
(╯°□°）╯"Nuuh Uuh!"
Lucius is hilarious because the very plot armor that protects him is also his biggest weakness.
You realise that xenocide is Artemis' job, right? Xenocide is the whole point of the Deathwatch. Xenophobia is a divine edict from The Emperor but Artemis is the asshole for doing his job? You think there is a page in their field manual about allowing the cursed xenos to finish their warp rituals just because they ask nicely?
Khaldor is a fantastic character. How would emps and the wolf king have gotten into bdsm elfholm without him beating up that star?
NO SUN !
HAVE YOU EVER EATEN A TANGURINE?! WOULD YOU LIKE TO TRY ONE?!
I will always see him like that and it makes Soo much sense why he does so much while in the warp
He is batshit insane and that gives him sanity in a place that has none
Fixing Draigo would be easy. Just say he's had the Noble Shard of Magnus all along. Hence why he's so OP. B/
@@Archon3960honestly until GW says otherwise this is canon for me.
"Have you ever eaten a tangerine? WOULD YOU LIKE TO TRY ONE?!?!?!?!?" - Kaldor Dragio, TTS
Clearly you’ve never eaten a tangerine
I find the emperor is the most human Post human. He makes mistakes, he's a hypocrite and incredibly arrogant. But, he also has humanities best interest at heart, he truly loves at least some of his sons and he feels genuine regret over some of his actions.
...really?
Name one action that he actually regrets.
The emperor genuinely loved his son's in the same way a neglectful parent genuinely loves their sons when they come calling for money
Lucius should get killed by an artillery strike by guardsmen who are immediately killed off without ever realizing they killed him, ensuring he never returns.
Why anyone will hate Artemis? Bless his soul, Emperor.
Truly the emperor’s most based grandson 🙏
Why does he have a girl's name? (Is it a girl's name?)
@@AngryHomunculus And he still is badass.
@@AngryHomunculusit works either way.
Meanwhile chaos wins cause this idiot and your emperor gets his skull added to khorne throne......yea amazing idiotic job
"my eyes just roll so far back in my head i can start counting the brain cells that are dying when he opens his mouth" got me dying with laughter 😂😂😂
I'm really with many of your picks and reasons. Abaddon for example is a really interesting cool character; yeah 13 failed black crusades are a lot; but they had to fail, because.. what if he was successful :D the narrative would be all over the places. He's the perfect show-villain; always dangerous, always doing his thing and never getting it.
Those did not fail though - it was revealed in book that was around 3rd or 4th edition he was already doing 13 shopping trips, with each Black Crusade working towards overall goal and succeding with one secret goal... which I still find bullshitty since why call those 13 actions black crusades then and not... 13 operations?
Everyone knows that's just cope/ret-conning from the writers.
Given the success record of the real world crusades I’m not shocked
I dont hate Kaldor Draigo becouse my head cannon is Draigo from TTS
Yes TTS Draigo is epic and memeworthy)
The problem with Abaddon. Is that he's an adapt commander. He's infact, an incredible commander. He manages to bring together legions of rabbit mobs into a cohesive fighting force. But that is also the problem. He essentially leads rabid mobs who have little more discipline than Orks!
They basically fixed Abaddon when they retconned the 13th black crusade. The failbaddon stuff was from him failing every black crusade, but now he was successful at his real objectives, and the wars were just smokescreen. That and his old model was made shitty and fell apart.
@@AliceBowie yeah I remember this. I had old armless, back in the day.
Completely inaccurate. They are still astartes and disciplined fighters… They just have split allegiances and no one trusts each other
@@AliceBowieThe retcons are embarassing. You cant just turn all those failures into "hurr durr actually I had secret objectives" its desperate cope from GW to make him look competent
@@joesheridan9451well its not really. While the ground troops might fall in line. The lords are all power hungry and their subordinates are also power hungry. They all want the favour of their particular god. To have the charisma to bring some sort of order to chaos itself would be a challenge in itself.
John Grimaticus was also in one of the Alpha Legion books and wasn’t all that bad.
That’s honestly the ONLY time he was good
Even then, literally every other character in the book were better than him. I've haven't gotten very far in the Horus Heresy series (only up to Mechanicus) but I could tell that he was very incompetant at his job, specifically with his conversation and tantrum with Slau Dha. It makes you think, "is this really the person we look through thru most of the book?" I still love Legion because Hurtado Bronzi and all of the back and forth of the Alpha Legion, but damn was Grammaticus underwhelming.
@@jacobthompson9181 The excessive focus on John Gramaticus killed my interest in Legion. I loved the Hurtado Bronzi parts, but once I got the tent fight part I had lost all will to continue listening to the book
16:29 I'm the singular Mortarion defender. I actually like the idea of Morty being a hypocritical douchebag.
I genuinely thought for the longest time that was how he was supposed to be as a character even though it probably wasn't, idk man I just find his hypocrisy fascinating to read and watch unfold.
Characters being hypocritical isn't something explored that much in fiction maybe because it's such a hated trait when seen in real life.
I'm not going to say he's misunderstood or in the right because he isn't and I love him for that he's just a disgusting sore loser who's own bitterness blinds him and makes him angry at people who ultimately don't deserve it.
And the fact he's such a piss head makes it so Nurgle his "patron" actually punishes him and the fact he prefers Typhus (the goat) over him is really funny and cool imo.
Guilliman being reived and lighting the Garden of Nurgle is still fucking bullshit btw had to get that in.
You are not alone one thing I like is how Morty actually does have some good in him, the reason he even surrendered to Nurgle was to spare his legion of an eternity of suffering.
You can be so full of inner conflict you appear hypocritical and incompetent..
@@blizzardgaming7070not to mention that at the time, Morty actually knew very little about Chaos or the warp. I think based upon that, it's safe to say he probably had little notion that the intelligence with which he was pleading meant "numbness to everything and despair" when it promised mercy. Therefore, he is rather disillusioned with his Patron and this pisses Nurgle off. I have a theory that the only reason why the Emperor would ever make any allusions to redemption in conversation with Morty WHILE HES LITERALLY BURNING DOWN NURGLES GARDEN are those of Morty's resentment and disillusionment with Nurgle actually creates a space fir the Emperor to burn Nurgles influence from Mortys godsoul.
Nah mortarion is by far my favorite primary and the hypocracy of him is the best aspect of his character it's just pure tragedy
In which aspect was Mortarion a hypocrite except the creation of the plague planet, and that one time he used his psychic powers (which he was literally forced to)
"Nobody can replace Abbadon in what he does."
Huron Blackheart: *coughs*
Abbadon wants to destroy the Imperium. Huron refuses to pay taxes.
My biggest complaint about Erebus could arguably be attached to any big characters, but his plot armor is some of the thickest in the setting.
I feel like even Lucius' reviving power wouldn't be so irritating, if it would just be done right.
But that story with him getting blown up by a landmine and the factory worker who build that landmine becoming the new Lucius because he took pride in his work is what made me hate the character.
The guy didn't know Lucius and didn't take pride in killing him, but just doing his work. This is total BS and for the people who say: "Oh but it's Chaos it's in the name that they don't play by the rules"- just no.
Chaos does follow certain rules (like demons can't exist in the materium for to long when not bound to something physical, how blanks and souls work, etc.).
Also, it's just bad worldbuilding to create a rule and then brake it with no explanation.
I mean I thought it was pretty clearly established that Slaanesh doesn’t have to play by the laws of the universe, sure there’s a “rule” to his revival, but when had the Chaos Gods ever needed to follow constraints? people just can’t seem to accept that he’s going to stick around as long as he keeps Slaanesh’s favor, or, for out of universe reasoning, GW finds it opportune to get rid of him
@@jasonravenscroft5321 Then GW should just say that Slaneesh keeps respawning Lucius just cause.
The Emperor did the same with Guilliman and doesn't need some convoluted explanation that is immediatly dropped anyway.
@@arnekrug939not to mention, it plants really weird questions like...
"If Lucius is stabbed, why does he reincarnate in the person who stabbed him instead of on whoever made the knife he was stabbed with? If he falls into lava, does the lava reinvarnate into Lucius? What stops Lucius from butchering planets by reincarnating everyone into Lucius?"
Wasn't the land mine story written because the author read a 'how can you kill Lucuis' reddit thread and wanted to 'nuh uh, he's everything proof' the result the fans came up with?
Which I'd argue is even 'worse' world building than just pulling things out of your backside...
I only noticed one material oversight: you forgot to include Erebus.
For some incomprehensible (read: “Tzeentchian”) reason I only heard him placed once, and as we all know Erebus occupies all of the most-hated positions on any tier list. As penance/remedial training you are to report to the nearest Chaos world not of your choice where you are to sit in the red/pink/purple joint venture chair between our taskmaster father Khorne and the loving embrace of our mother Slaneesh. Training will continue until time starts in the Warp. You will be encouraged to take numerous breaks, with refreshments provided by our grandfather using his most recently developed recipes.
The only book I've read with John Grammaticus so far is Legion and he didn't come across as *entirely* unlikable there, and you can sympathize with his situation of basically being a pawn for a group of xenos who hate him and humanity and being unable to actually live a life of his choosing with meaningful relationships. It also was a fun little narrative twist that this man who is painted as a master infiltrator and manipulator gets absolutely outplayed by the Alpha Legion who end up rubbing salt in the wounds that the two characters in the story he was developing a friendship and an intimate relationship with were playing him to set him up to fail in a very humiliating turn of events.
Oddly enough, my problem with John isn't so much that he's a perpetual (mileage on that varies a lot), or his characterization in Legion, it's the fact he seems to have these weird powers that don't seem to have any drawback or Warp peril, like he can instantly learn a language and adopt any accent, and he can basically Jedi mind trick people into believing what they want him to believe ("Don't you recognize me? I'm so and so" and the character often believes him). Having weird and wonderful powers can really make or break a character, so it's best to make it feel like it's something earned or has tangible consequences.
Which leads me to how much I despise the whole concept of Lucius. I don't like the Emperor's Children in general because they are portrayed as extremely arrogant better-than-thou peacocks and I don't enjoy Slaanesh aesthetics as much as other Chaos factions, but his whole greatest swordsman in the galaxy schitck is often proven wrong by other characters and his taking over bodies power removes any sense of consequence from him and the knowledge that you can't have other characters fight him where the fight doesn't end up with a draw or Lucius surviving because it would mean the character that killed him becomes him. And it goes so far as random artillery shell hits him, the person who took pride in manufacturing the shell becomes Lucius. About the only way he can die without body swapping is just some freak natural disaster or incident where no other people are involved. A boulder falls on him. His ship navigates directly into an uncharted black hole. A volcano erupts. Something, anything. I don't even know if Tyranids can kill him without there being some dumb justification of "the Mawloc who ate him whole felt satisfied at its meal and now Lucius is the Mawloc", and I don't know if he can become a Necron being soulless machines who are absolutely full of pride and ego.
It just ends up making Lucius this character that has no stakes, has an insufferable personality, while simultaneously becomes a setting punching bag like the Swarmlord and the Avatar of Khaine because if you have a character that comes back, you can write it losing again and again and again.
A mindless Necron killing him by accident is the best bet. :D
I can partly forgive Artemis because he’s a mortifactor. And mortifactors have the word “cunt” engraved into their geneseed no matter what
Plot Armor is one of the tihings that makes me at least lose interest in a character and in some cases despise him, no matter the faction he rapresents.
Girlyman and the Smurfs
Been re-reading/listening to the ultramarine omnibus, since they released it on audio recently, and man that second book is full of the 'incompetence' problem. It ironically ended up making the tyranids seem like relatively mild threats, because the imperials were making so many stupid decisions throughout that, if they hadn't made, would've allowed them to easily defeat the hive fleet. Insanely dumb things like "hmmm... I see those tyranids are, instead of attacking the space refinery, that we've improvised into a fleet-destroying bomb, like they did last time, this time they've instead attached themselves to it and are dragging it towards our fleet... hmm... very odd... oh well, good thing tyranids are stupid bugs who can't think so they must be doing this for a random reason or something! now then, time for me to turn my head in this other direction and get really busy with something else for a few minutes until it's too late". Although most the characters who do that stuff die as a result, so.
I was just thinking my lunch needed some salt lmao
10 bucks says he put john Grammaticus on here. As for why someone hates someone thing, when a character has the power to put undue influence on the plot and hi jacks it from a other wise desirable direction. Obviously their acceptations. It boils down to how fun the character can be. As for John i'm not saying your wrong but your the only guy i know who hates him. Not disagreeing at all, just saying.
Your hatred of John Grammaticus did bring me here but your love of Dan Abnett discredits you entirely.
14:19 drago reminds me of the “can he beat goku” power scaling memes. I just recently got into warhammer 40k (mainly because of the orks) and I’ve been enjoying all the lore so far.
TTS MADE ME LOVE "LUSCIOUS LUCIAS " 😂😂
(HEY BAE!, HAPPY SLAANESHMAS!!!)😘😘😘🤣🤣🤣
The only thing I'd disagree with is that Lucius is hated. It's kinda worse than that. By making him so overpowered and unable to die they've removed him. He's irrelevant as he can't fight well written characters since he'll either kill them or die and kill them anyways. Much like kaldor draigo he's forced to just go off and doodle in the background since no one can do anything with him in any kind of impactful way.
Perhaps we could put him on display in Solemnance?
Bro forgot Manfred Von Carstein
Mortarion, one of the best story of Primarch according to me.
He would have been a loyalist, no doubt he would be way more popular.
Has he not had his head deep in his hatred for psycher, Morty and his son would have been a good allies for the loyalist. I mean the guy can basically be the equipvalent of Grey Knight before Grey Knight exist with his Legion using their war crime weapon on daemon 'cause Daemons are not people.
Kaldor Draigo in the lore I am a god slayer and singlehandedly defeated a demon primarch
Kaldor Draigo in 10th Ed tabletop. I rolled too many 1s now I’m dead before I can do anything
Erebus isn't hated, he's HATED. 🤓
Erda is a perpetual who is three powerful psykers who merged and became one. She was one of the group of perpetuals (including Malcador and Ollanius Pius) who joined the Emporer in his plans to reunite and lead humanity. She took longer than Ollanius to realize the Emporer was going to lead humanity to destruction. I don't love or hate her or her part in the story. It is pretty random but it does make sense if you pick up on the clues and it fills in the missing part of the story where somehow the chaos gods managed to fling the primarchs across the galaxy.
I don't really hate Lucius... in the medical field I worked with addicts and he is a great example of an addict that had literally EVERYTHING GOING FOR HIM IN LIFE and he still became an addict... just give Lucius better writers, giving a bad or mediocre writer a JUNKY is like giving them a pass to be cliche, predictable, and corny. The Faultless Blade book taps into his issues a bit better than most books just making him a typecast badguy, like a second in command Starscream type of nuisance despicable character.... Lucius is the Tyrone BIggums of WarHammer 40K... Give Lucius to ABD or Guy Haley... we will love him...
Erebus is hated because he is super OP. He easily fools primarchs. Everything just works out just the way he wants it regardless of his actions. Even when he messes up it still works out. His plan was also very simple and should not have worked.
Unrelated, but your voice fit very well with Aeldar and its very fun to listen to
Fuck Erebus
Ayyyy thanks!!!
Being a devil's advocate for Erda without being a fan of it, putting all the blame for the Horus heresy is, in my humble opinion, quite silly because the actions of the traitor primarchs are due to several factors, not only the planet, but also the treatment of the emperor, his other brothers, the empire, the gods of chaos and even his legionaries, not to mention that the emperor had already chosen those planets in advance among all the things he did to them, I say he is well known as a terrible father, Robute himself has said it. Clearly, again, she as a character is meh to me and I understand the complaints about how she was implemented into the story, but to say that it was her fault in something more complex is not to see the entire scene of the saga.
PS: I don't know if you named Horus by accident but saying that he fell on his planet is wrong because it is one that we know the basics of his story on his adopted planet, the great crusade for sure but little in Cthonia.
I like Kaldor Draigo exactly for how tough mofo he is. Yes, he is a Mary Sue, but his curse evens it out. Tough as nails, but forced to roam The Warp, returning to the materium only for brief amounts of time.
Also he's a funny man with tiny men in his beard
He DIFNANTLY has the Magnus shard. Thats the only explanation. And Tangerines. Can't forget about those 😂
@@berilsevvalbekret772 he definetely tried one
Hands do not exist in his reality
Have you seen his sword anywhere?
I kinda like Watch Commander Artemis for the same reason I love Imperial Fists. Never change the plan. If something is decided then it will be done or we'll die trying. (Also, "hey monkeigh, we are doing a huge ritual. It will save the galaxy trust us. Why? Can't say but please let us do it pretty please?" how surprising the commander of forces of the Ordo Xenos didn't fall for it). Loved the video.
Uhhh that entire event was some of the poorest writer shit for the eldar out there
In my view the Emperor of Mankind is one of the main antagonist for humanity. The means he used to reach his goals were not only actively evil they were self-destructive to the end goals. The only good thing about him is that justly burns every moment of everyday in psychic flames of the pyre he lite for himself.
Most imperial citizens have never heard of chaos or Horus.
Do you really think that people reading nowadays BL pseudo-Marvel bs (or watching fanboy vids made by hyper nervous teens on speed) are even going to understand what you are saying? You have officially qualified as too intelligent for the shitshow that 40k has become ever since they decided to translate the HH from glorious mythology into bland comicbook-brained reality.
I’m Surprised Morty is here, I haven’t heard of anyone hating on him before. Yeah he’s a petty hypocrite, but I feel like it works for him because of how much of a supervillain he becomes when he ascends to Daemonhood. He’s a god damn Captain Planet villain dressed up like the fucking grim reaper, a perfect fit for Nurgle’s more comedic angle compared to the other Gods and chaos as a whole. He’s Grandfathers Stinkiest Soldier and I think he’s fun :)
If he showered more often (with clean water and soap) I'd consider moving him from "disinterest" to "potentially interested"
on Abaddon you gotta remember chaos dosent want to win outright it wants to slowly burn the galaxy to eat I bet the chaos gods are fucking him over
You clearly don't understand caldor's power.
You see, he's one of the suns in the warp, the one who provides the hams and the one whose beard is filled with tiny men.
If you plug these into a proper equation then the root of the cubed square of smooth per onions clearly shows that his power is at least equal to that of 90 purple!
Honestly heres a fun idea how to deal with Lucious. Have a bunch of grey knights pin him down and send out a random PDF soldier to exicute him. Then restrain the PDF soldier in a containment cell designed to deal with high priority targets, that way when Lucious curse kicks in he is trapped in a cell. Preferabbly he would be tranfwred to the black cells of Tera at that point.
Pre-imperium terran warlords are fun because they hammer home that the Emperor wasn't any better than them, he just happened to be stupidly powerful. And he would use that power to inflict worse atrocities upon the whole galaxy.
How there are like maybe only a handful of paragraphs of info on any of them
I talked to my friend that is reading the heresy about how much he'll hate John, he googled art of him and just by that drawing of him with that dumb ahh smug look he said "yup, i already despise him"
I want to see the art.
Mortarion seemed weirdly shoehorned into this list. I haven't heard a single 40K fan complain about him before.
100%
No Cato Sicarius? The dude literally emboides power scaling and plot armour!
I wonder whos hated more. Erbus or leandros?
Leandro’s for sure
Erebus is a “you hate him so much you end up loving him” situation, Leandros is just flat out “everyone despises him no matter what”
God am I so glad to know that Perturabo and Magnus aren’t as hated as I thought they would be
Anyone else just flatout hate the choas gods? I straight up loathe Slaanesh, and wish it died.
I can picture a Grey Knight or the Emperor typing this.
@@FreshMint1527 Agreed, and Grey Knights are my favorite space marines.
The way Arhiman killed the rune priest by pulling out his soul and feeding it to a warp creature.
I will always love Artemis solely because he got Eldrad, let alone the Eldar, to beg and plead. If you know anything about either one you that is simply not something the knifes ears do. He actually got Eldar tge be honest and straight forward about done and not by pompous, condescending, or arrogant about it. Also the fact even after being told Slaanesh would die he still said yes is just hilarious to me.
Also John Gramadicus. Oh how I wanted to line that character. You have no idea. GW, why are you like this?
Also no Cato Sicarius?
I, Cato Sicarius, am appalled that you think that I, Cato Sicarius, would appear on such list as I, Cato Sicarius, am a beloved character for many people
And that is the dumbest thing writer or at least the top.5 things that's just hot garbage. Stupid character followed by the lamest battle ever. It should have been a slaanesh force not some idiotic deathwatch force
@@Zan10242 By whom? Slaanesh?
HH biggest mistake was the need they felt to retcon how the primarchs got yeeted. They never should have changed the chaos gods did it. Simple and clean. Imo Erda was fine existing as she for me helped bridge the gap between the Angel and the primarchs. But the yeeting of the primarchs? Fuck that.
A little correction on the Emperor: there are people who love him and then there are the heretics.
Well said
You forgot to add the planet one primarch not just landed on but was thrust into its core and had to crawl his way out off...only to be consumed by its darkness and become a ghastly psychopathic murderer.
What would you say if GW pivots from Abaddon to Huron Blackheart or Perturabo as being the figurehead of chaos? Both in my opinion would be more effective in the respective role.
Perturabo as warmaster? No, I don't really think he wants to lead a bunch of chaos-corrupted space marines with 0 discipline. Pretty sure he just wants to do his own thing.
Huron as warmaster? Hell yeah.
I really think Perturabo would really be unsuitable to lead chaos for a number of reasons.
1. He is a terrible leader, sure he can strategise well but the IW follow him because he’s their Primarch and no other reason, like half of them turned against him. EG those that refused to genocide Olympia, Barajas Dantioch and other IW who were scattered in garrisons. If he can barely keep his own legion together there’s no chance he can organise a Black Crusade.
2. I really don’t think he gives a shit, he’s stuck himself on Mdrenguard and he’s stuck building up his shit, he isn’t half as motivated as say Abbadon to bring down the Imperium.
TLDR: Not even his own legion likes him, much less the self serving warbands that make up Chaos, and he doesn’t care enough to do so.
I personally really love what TTS did with Kaldor draigo
As dorn said ”I suspect he is high on narcotics”
I understand the writing problems, but it's not like erda could have possibly known the planets they'd land on. Correct me if I'm wrong. Also, we all just totally ignore the insane mistreatment by the Emperor.
She threw her kids into the warp even though she knew chaos was around, pretty shit mom.
I feel like that is the tragedy of mortarion he tries so hard not to be his adoptive father that ultimately he becomes him.
I love Mortarion he is my favorite Primarch and it seems the character traits that makes people hate him are the same ones that make me love him (plus is got a cool design and the best fall of all the traitors). Mortarion main character traits is that he takes bad or ilogical decision for personal reason that he tryes rationalise wich is very human (and those bad decision come to bite him).
It's painfully obvious that Mortarion hated the Emperor almost on principle because the Emperor reaped is life goal just to force him to do something else but he can't be like Angron and admit that.
And for that he gains nothing is reward for being a traitor is to be on the side he hates and to get betrayed by one of is sons he then become a chaos prince of nurgle to save is legion and is now in perpetual pain because unlike most of nurgles follower he asen't embraced despair yet. (One of the only villain to get what he deserves whilst still showing that there might be hope for him)
Mortarion's only saving grace is that he endures all of this. He might regain his humanity back. But Nurgle's cauldron is DEEP.
Plus the single best looking 40k model Games Workshop has ever released.
Abbadon plot armor is about getting his ass kicked to near death state but each time escaping thanks to warp teleportation with classic vilan "I will return and make you regret this humiliation you put on me!!!" trope
Kaldor Draigo should meet his end with Fulgrim's return. Fulgrim also had his true name used against him, it would be fitting to have wait for that then find away to use that against him. Then take out his heart, Fulgrim writes his own name on it, sends it to Mortarion just to piss him off.
Also haven't read a Thousand Sons yet but did Othere Wyrdmake at least suggest they instead try to learn Rune Pirest way as a compromise, or is Fenris just special just because?
In answer to your question; in the book the "exchange" spoken about in the video was arranged by Ferris and Magnus to better understand the other. Its mentioned in the book that Othere begins to teach Ahriman the ways of the runes and in exchange Ahriman demonstrates the "tutalaries" a teacher of sorts, which is described as benign deamon entities that the thousand sons use to understand the warp, which freaks Othere the fuck out and his wolves (not wolves). there is alot conveyed but not explained FULLY but its a really good book.
@@blackfire0x0 Thanks
Great video again ! Really enjoy the way you add depth on top of the vanilla memes from the bigger channels
Maybe not a popular opinoo , but I like mortarion, mostly cause I like how his upbringing wroght his character and his seething hatred for the emperor ever since day one is actually understandable but I haven't read enough to actually defend him with well formulated arguments (he is still in my top 3 favourite primarchs though, i will die on this hill) but a character I wanted to see in this top ten was iskandar khayon (or however it's spelled) I don't know if it was retconned or clarified in any way but a thousand sons pskyer wielding a space wolf axe just because he's cool and stronger than his nerdy peers just feel stupid and deprives him of what makes the thousand sons actually interesting, that plus the fact that he made Magnus kneel are unacceptable levels of fanfic... He is kaldor draigo levels of bullshit
I love mortarion so much his backstory and his fall are just tragic
@@alfieingrouille1528 a man of culture, I knew I wouldn't be alone in this hahaha
I hate how Horus was able to fight the Emperor while using one of the most impractical armors around. I mean, the dude had his head practically inside a box...