Also, I found this on the Bloodborne wiki about Flora, of anyone is interested. Perhaps Flora IS the nameless Moon Presence. Perhaps it's not. I still found this interesting, and partly the reason why the flowers are of a pale color. "Flora is a roman fertility goddess and its greek counterpart is Chloris, also related to fertility, and who's name's origin can translate into 'pale'." I'd like to know everyone's thoughts. I'm leaning more towards Redgrave's explanation.
Moon presence is Flora in my eyes, cause even the Roman explanation you gave nails it, I mean what is told to us, time and time again, that the Great Ones are even fooling around with humans in the first place? They want offspring's, and to get that, you need fertility... I mean just take that old roman goddess, but take away her ability to reproduce by other gods and what would she have to turn to? those who give her power, through worship or otherwise, would surely be her first choice, no? :)
The Japanese subtitles seem to indicate that Flora is a name. It is written in katakana, as Furoora. This usually means that it is a name of some specific thing, not flora in general. If she'd been talking about flowers in general, she would have used a japanese word, not a japanified english term. To me, as a japanese speaker, there is no doubt that she is referring to a person or entity.
Although you make a very good point, I'd like to point out that there isnt really a Japanese word for "flora" So if you try to get the context of the english flora without spelling out it's entire meaning, then "furoora" or something similar would be the correct translation of "flora" I'd remind you, "flora" doesnt mean "flowers". It means "plant life". So simply using the japanese word for "flowers" would be a mistranslation.
@@8NCLI8 not in this case there isnt. Flora specifically refers to a set of plant life in a specific artificial area. Bloodborne isnt the first time the word has been capitalized and not in reference to a goddess. Flora capitalized was used to specifically refer to plant life inside an artificial garden, which would make sense in Bloodborne as the lumin flowers where used in a garden at the research hall. Sure, any japanese word used to generally describe plants or flowers would have worked 100% fine for bloodborne, but none would give the specific context of plants inside a man-made or artificial garden.
@@Phurzt I think it's one hell of a stretch, especially when there is an entity named Flora in the game. I've never seen capitalization used in the way you describe, but tbf, I am not a native English-speaker.
@@8NCLI8 well, to be completely fair. Its, atleast to me, not 100% confirmed the Moon Presence has a name, which is why I've looked into the etymology of flora before. I am of the mind that people who think "Flora" is the moon presence's actual name are mistaken in the same exact way as the hunter's dream could also be considered a garden of sorts.
There are images from the Concept Art / Art book (usually named "Moon Presence And The Essence Of The Formless Great One Oedon") where Flora or the Moon Prescence seems like a tree, and has its head is covered in a round/hazy substance.. like a "Lumen Flower" perhaps? I also find interesting that this great one only has 5 fingers.
I know this is super late but the flowers in the hunters dream, in lumenflower garden and on the back of rom all look like 3 different types of flowers. There definitely seems to be a connection between flowers and the great ones (or kin because also in the side area off of the forbidden woods where the celestials are found is covered in flowers as well) Also the flowers by the living failures! Still super good insight, I love your work, I doubt there is anyone who has a more clear image of Bloodborne than you
I've seen this something like five times already, and 15:07 still gets me, what with how excited you get (e.g., rubbing your hands together) to drop that last little lore bombshell on us. I love it! Looking forward to hearing you talk about Darkbeasts -- particularly because I know very little about them. I've no specific questions, but perhaps you might consider going into the differences between the likes of Paarl and the likes of the Abhorrent Beast (if, indeed, the latter is a darkbeast).
Lumenflowers are also located profusely in the Isz Chalice. It would appear these Flowers signigy basically the presence, living or deceased, of Great Ones. They spring up around their being. As previously stated. They are on Rom, also on the Great One Offspring/Baby; Ebrietas is mourning over.
I still go through and watch these all the time. It's crazy that a time like this will probably never come again for bloodborne or dark souls. That hunger that everyone had for discovering, discussion and analyzing made such a great community. Thanks for everything Redgrave and I look forward to whatever you have in store next!
I always thought that Flora was the name of the Moon Presence since she says oh "Flora of the Moon, of the dream" The moon presence is obviously associated with the moon and it's also responsible for the Hunters dream.
The Doll sings too, just like the Winter Lanterns! You can hear her every time you're in the Hunters Dream (Hunter´s Dream and Moonlit Melody) and while fighting the Moon Presence.
The fact that the messengers are so connected to the Dream and the Doll and that both of them are connected heavily to the Great ones, and that the winter lantern heads are made up of dead messengers, makes me think that the messengers are also tiny emodiments of the moon presence. The way they sprout out of the ground around the lanterns, like flowers, after you light it, bringing the moon presence (aka Flora) to the area you've just conquered. The lanterns don't shine with a warm or fiery light, they shine with a pale moonlight. I say conquered, but really you're driving away a piece of the eldritch influence, some beast of person or monster that has been infected or is being controlled by a Great One, just as Flora wanted you to do. The fact that they are in the fountains, or a reflective water surface, similar to the moonside lake, which draws yet another link to them. The fact that the doll is somehow linked to the moon presence, or at least the cosmos of elder knowledge, as she's able to channel the blood echoes for the player, is all very telling that the Moon Presence, the messengers, the doll and the flowers, are all linked. This also draws an interesting link from lumenflower garden and the failed experiments, to Maria, who was their caretaker, much like the Doll is the caretaker of the Hunter. This all seems very deliberate and intentional, and while maybe the moon presence isn't literally named Flora, it would make sense that evoking the name Flora is way to describe her influence or presence. The paleblood moon, the flowers, the winter lanterns (which i still see as strange failed Dolls constructed by Gerhman on behest of his obsession and of the moon presence), the Doll and moon presence herself, all seem to be synonymous in some way.
I know this is super late but the flowers in the hunters dream are coldblood flowers, their description is "Pale vegetation that commonly grows on coldblood in a place long abandoned, that has bloomed into a bright red stygian flower." If you look closely at the flowers used in chalice rituals they're the same with a blood red center and white petals. The reason Gehrman's boss arena is covered in them is because when he frees a hunter via decapitation it would be no doubt very bloody, spreading coldblood everywhere and since it seems that Gehrman doesnt visit this area much that would fit the long abandoned part.
Sorry dude I’m so late to the party and only played this since coming out on PS plus and I’m obsessed with it now. Pale blood hunt was a masterpiece and I wish I could see more of your thoughts on this awesome lore but I will make do with the awesome content you have blessed us with good sir ❤
Always thought Rom was conected to flowers. seeing somebody else talking about it too makes me happy, but i will go even further and say that i believe Rom IS a flower. I had this idea when playing in the chalice dungeons, i was fighting those centipede flowers that throw fireballs at you (Don't know the name) and i saw that when you kill them, a piece of root stays on the ground. and the only place you fight this monster is in byrgenwerth. Maybe i'm crazy, but i believe there is a small connection there. Nice video man! keep up the good work
Jesus, never connected the Winter Lanterns with the Japanese lantern flowers before, their glowing threw me off. Makes perfect sense though, the Messengers, they themselves flowers, forming the grotesque petals of the Winter Lanterns. Now there's just the Mensis brain to puzzle out. I wouldn't call them Lumenflowers though, the flowers in the Celestial Emissary's area look like an entirely different breed, they're almost like to sunflowers, which is ironic. I think they're just a visual metaphor for the emissaries' metamorphosis: flowers blossoming.
+Coypop Here's my take on it. When Rom is defeated Yarnham gives birth to Mergo. After this Mensis (school or person) uses Third Umbical Cord which results into stilll birth of Mensis' and Mergo's brains. I suppose this happens when player faces One Reborn. In Living String it's mentioned that Brain which Mensis was able to retrieve was rotten and lined with evil eyes. Does this mean that it's rotten and evil because Messengers were already dead, or are messengers dead because the brain is evil and rotten? I don't know but i have couple theories. First is that Brain is infant great one, which might seem to us flawed, but than again this is lovecraftian stuff which we are not to comprehend. Another possibility is that One Reborn was ment as sacrifice, but not for Hunter. Perhaps for Wet Nurse or even Mergo? That messed up whole thing and Brain turned corrupted. Maybe they were about to create new Hunter's Dream with it's own set of messengers, but it imploded into Brain of Mensis. What Happened for Mergo? It's brain was also stillbirth. My impression has been that it was melted into Brain of Mensis, but now as i think about it it doesn't make sense. Why it is called Brain of Mensis then? So in short what can be said in certain is, in my opinion, that: Brain of Mensis is brain of Mensis corrupted by some thing. How does Winter Lanterns relate to it? And the Doll. Were they some personal assistents of Mensis like that Doll once may have been.
Not sure if anyone has mentioned but something jumped out fromt he wikipedia entry for hōzuki. It's used as a sedative... Physalis alkekengi (bladder cherry, Chinese lantern,[2] Japanese-lantern,[3] strawberry groundcherry,[4] or winter cherry;[2] Japanese: hōzuki) The dried fruit of P. alkekengi is called the golden flower in the Unani system of medicine, and used as a diuretic, antiseptic, liver corrective, and sedative. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physalis_alkekengi
LOL that ending! The smurk on your face... priceless! Lore-hunters delight, we should call it. The way you rub your hands when you've found a big connection... I don't know if that was done on purpose or if it was true emotion, but in any case... it was fun as hell to watch you gush over a discovery like that!
Dude. Your content is gold. You would make a great teacher. Seriously. If you could find a way to teach a class that uses Bloodborne to discuss Lovecraft, I think you would have a promising career. Not that you won't in whatever else you choose to do! I knew a guy in college who taught a semester class on Batman. Just Batman. Anything is possible. But seriously. I just got back into Bloodborne and was looking around for things to satisfy hearing about the game 24/7 again. I came across your content and I'm obsessed. Bummed you aren't working on it but understand that you are done with it. Hope you're well and working on great things. Also, funny side note? When you were talking about the Hunter's mark and that guy wanted to get it as a tattoo and you said that video game tattoos are lame?? Yeah I watched that while the Hunters mark was tattooed squarely on my back haha I couldn't quit laughing 😆
Got linked here from your post on reddit asking the community if they wanted Paleblood Hunt part 2. Anyway, I love hearing you breakdown this stuff! Cheers!
Excellent video man! I loved your insight into the meaning of "winter lantern." I also appreciated the evidence for winter lantern = doll (I had only heard about the dress similarity.) Keep up the good work Redgrave!
I love all this lore, and you present it so well! I've tried to read your Paleblood essay, but my eyes are pretty awful, and it takes a long while for me to be able to finish things, so these lore videos are so important to me :) Thanks a lot for making them!
I thought that, much like Dark Souls 3, Rom represented a binding of sorts - preventing time or reality setting in, where the Great Ones/Amygdalas descend once more. I thought that, like DS3's Princess holding the egg, once the truth of that situation was uncovered, the world would be flung forth into the nightmare of present reality, as opposed to the moments just before. It was also my belief that the body Abrietas appeared to be mourning was, indeed, the body of Rom - and that, like the Great Ones, Rom existed in more than one dimension. So their body was lying on the alter of Despair (perhaps after a failed attempt to resurrect Rom?) but their spirit or essence still existed in the pocket dimension of the Lake. Also, on the flowers, that led me to believe there was some sort of love story going on, either between Rom and Paleblood, or Paleblood and some other Great One like Kos - and that being the reason that Paleblood seized Gehrman and imprisoned him forever in the Hunter's Dream to do their bidding... both an act of mercy for a kindred spirit who also lost a loved one, and the most cruel punishment for the loss of its loved one. I don't fackin know. This game cray.
Darkbeasts? Well I am curious in general about the design of them. In the back of my head I am thinking: "Oh so cliche, take the stereotypical werewolf design..." I would love to know why they chose this design, why they went with werewolf type look? Everything else seems so unique but these -- just for some reason for me they stick out. Yes I can see the transformation from man to beast in many monsters but why are they transforming into these wolf like creatures? Wolves are very intelligent, seems like a bad animal to pick to show off the worst in humanity. They do sort of group together like wolves, but still. Alien blood but we transform to wolves. Anyways that's what I am actually curious about. Thanks for making these.
Dima Parachute I understand you are talking about Dark Beasts in particular but I believe they follow the same transformation as what leads to Scourge Beasts. Unless I am totally wrong... In any case if you can cover that, cool.
If we're talking about flowers in Bloodborne then I think it would be an oversight to not include the flower-headed brainsucker-esque enemies that latched themselves onto an enemy with a gaping toothed abdomen that is quite similar to Moon Presence. I refer to the enemies in Chalices and at Bergynwerth, the ones that can use cosmic arcane magic to summon meteors. When these enemies are killed we find that the actual thing casting the magic was a four-legged tick-like being with a glowing blue flower sprouting from its head or body.
I might be late for the discussion but I have looked at the flowers in the Hunter’s Dream and they seem to be white lilies. White lilies symbolize the “innocence that has been restored to the soul of the departed” I interpret that as the innocence as the hunter wakes up from the dream. Since a big part of the Hunter’s Dream is a graveyard it seems fitting that they would use the flowers for the symbolic purpose of not only consoling us the player but also establish a life and death cycle of the hunters that came across the dream and were eventually put to death by Gehrman. Anyways, love this community and your work. Hope you’re doing great!
I haven't had a moment to get a good look at the flowers in the hunters dream in a while but I remember last time I was looking at them I connected them more to the 'Blooming Coldblood Flowers'. If not in the hunters dream, I'm fairly certain they make up most of the flowers we see in other areas.
- Crow I totally agree with you. I am pretty sure the flowers in the Hunter's Dream are the Coldblood Flowers. The description says : "Pale vegetation that commonly grows on coldblood in a place long abandoned, that has bloomed into a bright red stygian flower." . Those are literally flowers that grows on cold blood, which could explain why they are so many of them in the Hunter's Dream, especially in that backyard cementary/garden. It shows how much blood has probably been spilled there, or how much corpses are buried underground.
This may also relate back to Oedon, as blood is his essence. Otherwise, if those flowers in the Dream really are Coldblood Flowers, then that would mean that those can only be found in "Dreamlands", as the only other place you can find them is in the Nightmare Frontier.
Which Lovecraft book do you mention at the start of the video? I've listened to a lot of audio books, and did some reading online but it hurt my eyes quite a bit, and would like a comprehensive physical copy of a good portion of his works.
I actually DID know the cultural background of the Obon festival, but just _in general_. It didn't click in my mind as being related to the Winter Lanterns though as the monsters don't seem to have a connection to guiding dead people, and they neither look particularly lantern or flower-like. I initially thought they might have been inspired by will-o-the-wisps, which are said to lead people astray, possibly causing them to wander forever. I figured "Eh, it's like they attract you near with the lights and nice singing, but they're dangerous and cause you to lose your mind? Makes sense."
The only way to enter a nightmare is to die in the waking world, so maybe that's their way of guiding the dead. Obviously our Hunter can transcend through realms with the powers given by the messengers/ moon presence
Maybe this video was before the DLC but what about the flowers that appear in the garden in the hunters nightmare version of the choir, and also the majestic massive versions found in the living failures boss room. I wonder if they’re what lumen flowers look like when they open up.
There was that thing about "lining the brain with eyes", and a Winter Lantern is a brain covered in eyes - or a brain lined with eyes that's been turned inside out. From what I can see the messenger corpses are only on top of the brain, not the entire constituents of it.
nice video as always did anyone notice that the statue in the dream above the altar where you inprint runes looks like a doll? Statude is leaning on the tomb stone (perhaps watching over it) and it has stiched forehead if you look closely. This is speculation ahead but the way i see it could go both ways: either doll was recreated looking like the statue or the statue was created looking like a doll.
Hey just remembred that there are this flowers in nightmare frontier as well. You can also find biger flowers there such as in lumflower gardens in the reigion where the winter lanterns are. There is also item coldblood flower for the chalice dungeons that says this flowers grow in abandoned locations.
what I don't see talked a lot about are the 2 different flowers in the hunters dream. in the normal area we have the flowers and they have 7 petals. in the boss area though they only seem to have 5. what's also weird is the flowers are very visually close to easter lilies, a flower native to Japan's area that are tied to purity, virginity, death, and rebirth (basically the flower of Jesus). odd though, cause easter lilies neither have 7 or 5 petals. I think the difference in petals is pretty significant, but I have no idea what that might be
You say that piece of dialogue is rare, but I must have heard it 3 or 4 times already in my playthrough. She seemed to do it most before I killed Rom, I wasn't really paying attention to the triggers because I didn't think it was that rare.
Heyy how about all the spiders who are just everywhere ??? That sounds like something if you like you could talk about. The spiders in the nightmare of mensis whith faces you know they have amuletts which I think are green - just a weird detail some may never have noticed.
Aren't the lumenflowers the pods we find in the Emissary boss room? The flowers found in the Hunter's Dream are completely different, unless the lumenflowers are some kind of bastardization created by the Choir.
Can you please talk about Bone Ash set in your next video ? It's my favourite set bar trousers so I really want to understand the lore behind it. "The keepers, who mind the slumbering Great Ones, gained eternal life, preserved in ashen form in a ceremony of flame that cremated body and soul. The long, pointed hat is a symbol of the old keepers and is considered evidence of their companionship, forged in a certain sin." What that sin might be ? Also the mask has 8 eyes so I guess those keepers were granted more eyes ?
They're failed attempts of the Healing Church creating ascended beings [patients in research hall] that then only exist in the nightmares [predominantly Mensis, and one at the Hamlet]
I'd like to know more about the NPC Hunters you have to fight. Not Eileen, Alfred, Gascoigne, Henryk or Djura. The unnamed or less looked over ones: the Yaharghul Hunters, The choir member in the Nightmare of Mensis, The Cainhurst Crow, etc. What are your thoughts?
Actually the messengers are the souls of the Ailing Bastards of Loran, aka infants whose mothers had the plague of beasts causing them to die in the womb before they could be born.
on the topic of the doll, there are alot of things I dont get. like even tho the dolls clothes tell us "dolls cannot bleed or cry" yet the doll in the dream can do both. not only does the doll bleed, but the doll bleeds white blood. (would that be considered paleblood?) also the winter lanterns if im not mistaken bleeds normal red blood. also is there anything more you could add to gehrman making the doll in marias image?
My personal theory, even though this is only one small piece of evidence to back it up is that Gehrman turned Maria's corpse into the doll. We find the old hunter's bone on Maria's grave outside of the real workshop just laying on the grave implying that the bone was either on the ground or not buried very deeply. It also looks to me like the bone was broken in half. We also know that Gehrman was obsessed with Maria to the point of mania. In my mind Gehrman removed all the bones and organs from Maria's corpse and used his skills as a craftsman to turn her into a doll. A doll isn't supposed to bleed or cry, but perhaps a corpse can?
See i just don't know about the Winter Lanterns... Cause Bloodbornes world feels so convoluted and honestly questionable at times whether most places you visit are even in or was ever a real physical form... I can't help but feel that outside the starting areas, that most places you go to are just pure dreams and fabrications. Also the WL's only seem to show up in very unreal looking areas (Places completely distorted like Mirgo's Loft or The Nightmare area with all the Crawlers.. I just can't help but feel those kinds of places tell me that the winter lanterns don't even truly exist, they are more so an amalgamation of distrust or disdain for the doll from maybe Gherman or all the hunters that came before us... Hard to tell but it's just my opinion on the whole thing... I just feel that things are more so deep-seeded, uncontrollable figments of someones or everyone's collective dreams, and idk about anyone else, but i always called bullshit on people who say "oh well its a dream, you can do whatever you want in them." Bullshit!!! I've always just been some poor soul whose strapped in and stuck for the whole ride, no matter how fucked up it will get....
You're right, the winter lanterns don't really exist, only in Nightmares. The only way to enter these Nightmares is to die in the waking world (obviously our Hunter is excluded as we can transcend realms with the powers of the Messengers/ Moon Presence). Nightmares are made up of bad memories, so a lot of things are badly remembered (DLC Yarnham map, for example). And I think the Winter Lanterns are bad (inaccurate/ incomplete) memories of the doll, mixed with the pain of Maria and Research Patients. A true abomination. And when we face these creatures, we absolutely lose our mind that one of these things can even exist. Flora gave life to the Doll to guide the spirits of the dead, Mergo's Wetnurse gave life to the deceased Research Patients to guide the spirits of the dead, but with more sinister intent inspired by pain. Honestly the Whole Mensis Nightmare area feels like an embodiment of pain/ suffering.
robert trop Doesn't really make any sense to me; I don't see any way of linking the two, and the Moon Presence is explicitly called Nameless. If Flora is indeed being used as a Proper Noun, the only possible thing I could think of where it would make sense would be if she were referring to the collective messengers as Flora.
+Redgrave I know I'm late to this conversation but while trying to figure out the significance of the winter lantern's relation with the doll, I ran across the /r/bloodborne thread "On the etymology of "Winter Lanterns" "vmoth: In Japan, its seeds are used as part of the Bon Festival as offerings to guide the souls of the deceased... ...deleted: Sounds like a really sarcastic name when you combine that definition with their million little Flytrap mouths and being covered in 'lost souls'. ...CrayolaAutumn: If that's true, and Miyazaki knows about it, that's a really cruel joke." If your connection with the messengers being capitalized "Flora" in the Dolls prayer, do you think Miyazaki grinned a bit when FromStudios came up with the hozuki enemy?
what I don't see talked a lot about are the 2 different flowers in the hunters dream. in the normal area we have the flowers and they have 7 petals. in the boss area though they only seem to have 5. what's also weird is the flowers are very visually close to easter lilies, a flower native to Japan's area that are tied to purity, virginity, death, and rebirth (basically the flower of Jesus). odd though, cause easter lilies neither have 7 or 5 petals. I think the difference in petals is pretty significant, but I have no idea what that might be
what I don't see talked a lot about are the 2 different flowers in the hunters dream. in the normal area we have the flowers and they have 7 petals. in the boss area though they only seem to have 5. what's also weird is the flowers are very visually close to easter lilies, a flower native to Japan's area that are tied to purity, virginity, death, and rebirth (basically the flower of Jesus). odd though, cause easter lilies neither have 7 or 5 petals. I think the difference in petals is pretty significant, but I have no idea what that might be
Also, I found this on the Bloodborne wiki about Flora, of anyone is interested. Perhaps Flora IS the nameless Moon Presence. Perhaps it's not. I still found this interesting, and partly the reason why the flowers are of a pale color.
"Flora is a roman fertility goddess and its greek counterpart is Chloris, also related to fertility, and who's name's origin can translate into 'pale'."
I'd like to know everyone's thoughts. I'm leaning more towards Redgrave's explanation.
Moon presence is Flora in my eyes, cause even the Roman explanation you gave nails it, I mean what is told to us, time and time again, that the Great Ones are even fooling around with humans in the first place? They want offspring's, and to get that, you need fertility... I mean just take that old roman goddess, but take away her ability to reproduce by other gods and what would she have to turn to? those who give her power, through worship or otherwise, would surely be her first choice, no? :)
The Japanese subtitles seem to indicate that Flora is a name. It is written in katakana, as Furoora. This usually means that it is a name of some specific thing, not flora in general. If she'd been talking about flowers in general, she would have used a japanese word, not a japanified english term. To me, as a japanese speaker, there is no doubt that she is referring to a person or entity.
Although you make a very good point, I'd like to point out that there isnt really a Japanese word for "flora" So if you try to get the context of the english flora without spelling out it's entire meaning, then "furoora" or something similar would be the correct translation of "flora"
I'd remind you, "flora" doesnt mean "flowers". It means "plant life". So simply using the japanese word for "flowers" would be a mistranslation.
@@Phurzt No? jisho.org/search/flora
I mean, it certainly can be used that way, but there are perfectly good Japanese words for it.
@@8NCLI8 not in this case there isnt. Flora specifically refers to a set of plant life in a specific artificial area. Bloodborne isnt the first time the word has been capitalized and not in reference to a goddess. Flora capitalized was used to specifically refer to plant life inside an artificial garden, which would make sense in Bloodborne as the lumin flowers where used in a garden at the research hall.
Sure, any japanese word used to generally describe plants or flowers would have worked 100% fine for bloodborne, but none would give the specific context of plants inside a man-made or artificial garden.
@@Phurzt I think it's one hell of a stretch, especially when there is an entity named Flora in the game. I've never seen capitalization used in the way you describe, but tbf, I am not a native English-speaker.
@@8NCLI8 well, to be completely fair. Its, atleast to me, not 100% confirmed the Moon Presence has a name, which is why I've looked into the etymology of flora before. I am of the mind that people who think "Flora" is the moon presence's actual name are mistaken in the same exact way as the hunter's dream could also be considered a garden of sorts.
Cut dialogue confirmed that Flora is the Moon Presence's name. How cute ! 🌻
There are images from the Concept Art / Art book (usually named "Moon Presence And The Essence Of The Formless Great One Oedon") where Flora or the Moon Prescence seems like a tree, and has its head is covered in a round/hazy substance.. like a "Lumen Flower" perhaps?
I also find interesting that this great one only has 5 fingers.
I know this is super late but the flowers in the hunters dream, in lumenflower garden and on the back of rom all look like 3 different types of flowers. There definitely seems to be a connection between flowers and the great ones (or kin because also in the side area off of the forbidden woods where the celestials are found is covered in flowers as well) Also the flowers by the living failures! Still super good insight, I love your work, I doubt there is anyone who has a more clear image of Bloodborne than you
I've seen this something like five times already, and 15:07 still gets me, what with how excited you get (e.g., rubbing your hands together) to drop that last little lore bombshell on us. I love it!
Looking forward to hearing you talk about Darkbeasts -- particularly because I know very little about them. I've no specific questions, but perhaps you might consider going into the differences between the likes of Paarl and the likes of the Abhorrent Beast (if, indeed, the latter is a darkbeast).
Lumenflowers are also located profusely in the Isz Chalice. It would appear these Flowers signigy basically the presence, living or deceased, of Great Ones. They spring up around their being. As previously stated. They are on Rom, also on the Great One Offspring/Baby; Ebrietas is mourning over.
I still go through and watch these all the time. It's crazy that a time like this will probably never come again for bloodborne or dark souls. That hunger that everyone had for discovering, discussion and analyzing made such a great community. Thanks for everything Redgrave and I look forward to whatever you have in store next!
I always thought that Flora was the name of the Moon Presence since she says oh "Flora of the Moon, of the dream" The moon presence is obviously associated with the moon and it's also responsible for the Hunters dream.
The Doll sings too, just like the Winter Lanterns! You can hear her every time you're in the Hunters Dream (Hunter´s Dream and Moonlit Melody) and while fighting the Moon Presence.
The fact that the messengers are so connected to the Dream and the Doll and that both of them are connected heavily to the Great ones, and that the winter lantern heads are made up of dead messengers, makes me think that the messengers are also tiny emodiments of the moon presence. The way they sprout out of the ground around the lanterns, like flowers, after you light it, bringing the moon presence (aka Flora) to the area you've just conquered. The lanterns don't shine with a warm or fiery light, they shine with a pale moonlight. I say conquered, but really you're driving away a piece of the eldritch influence, some beast of person or monster that has been infected or is being controlled by a Great One, just as Flora wanted you to do. The fact that they are in the fountains, or a reflective water surface, similar to the moonside lake, which draws yet another link to them. The fact that the doll is somehow linked to the moon presence, or at least the cosmos of elder knowledge, as she's able to channel the blood echoes for the player, is all very telling that the Moon Presence, the messengers, the doll and the flowers, are all linked. This also draws an interesting link from lumenflower garden and the failed experiments, to Maria, who was their caretaker, much like the Doll is the caretaker of the Hunter.
This all seems very deliberate and intentional, and while maybe the moon presence isn't literally named Flora, it would make sense that evoking the name Flora is way to describe her influence or presence. The paleblood moon, the flowers, the winter lanterns (which i still see as strange failed Dolls constructed by Gerhman on behest of his obsession and of the moon presence), the Doll and moon presence herself, all seem to be synonymous in some way.
_Perhaps the Doll guides the "spirits of the dead" in the form of Blood Echoes to strengthen the Paleblood Hunter._
To meet the doll you have to die.
I know this is super late but the flowers in the hunters dream are coldblood flowers, their description is "Pale vegetation that commonly grows on coldblood in a place long abandoned, that has bloomed into a bright red stygian flower." If you look closely at the flowers used in chalice rituals they're the same with a blood red center and white petals. The reason Gehrman's boss arena is covered in them is because when he frees a hunter via decapitation it would be no doubt very bloody, spreading coldblood everywhere and since it seems that Gehrman doesnt visit this area much that would fit the long abandoned part.
Sorry dude I’m so late to the party and only played this since coming out on PS plus and I’m obsessed with it now. Pale blood hunt was a masterpiece and I wish I could see more of your thoughts on this awesome lore but I will make do with the awesome content you have blessed us with good sir ❤
Always thought Rom was conected to flowers. seeing somebody else talking about it too makes me happy, but i will go even further and say that i believe Rom IS a flower.
I had this idea when playing in the chalice dungeons, i was fighting those centipede flowers that throw fireballs at you (Don't know the name) and i saw that when you kill them, a piece of root stays on the ground. and the only place you fight this monster is in byrgenwerth. Maybe i'm crazy, but i believe there is a small connection there.
Nice video man! keep up the good work
4:24 that claim didn’t age well 😂 Aside from that this is some of the best content in Utube
Jesus, never connected the Winter Lanterns with the Japanese lantern flowers before, their glowing threw me off. Makes perfect sense though, the Messengers, they themselves flowers, forming the grotesque petals of the Winter Lanterns. Now there's just the Mensis brain to puzzle out.
I wouldn't call them Lumenflowers though, the flowers in the Celestial Emissary's area look like an entirely different breed, they're almost like to sunflowers, which is ironic. I think they're just a visual metaphor for the emissaries' metamorphosis: flowers blossoming.
+Coypop Here's my take on it.
When Rom is defeated Yarnham gives birth to Mergo. After this Mensis (school or person) uses Third Umbical Cord which results into stilll birth of Mensis' and Mergo's brains. I suppose this happens when player faces One Reborn.
In Living String it's mentioned that Brain which Mensis was able to retrieve was rotten and lined with evil eyes. Does this mean that it's rotten and evil because Messengers were already dead, or are messengers dead because the brain is evil and rotten? I don't know but i have couple theories. First is that Brain is infant great one, which might seem to us flawed, but than again this is lovecraftian stuff which we are not to comprehend.
Another possibility is that One Reborn was ment as sacrifice, but not for Hunter. Perhaps for Wet Nurse or even Mergo? That messed up whole thing and Brain turned corrupted. Maybe they were about to create new Hunter's Dream with it's own set of messengers, but it imploded into Brain of Mensis.
What Happened for Mergo? It's brain was also stillbirth. My impression has been that it was melted into Brain of Mensis, but now as i think about it it doesn't make sense. Why it is called Brain of Mensis then?
So in short what can be said in certain is, in my opinion, that: Brain of Mensis is brain of Mensis corrupted by some thing.
How does Winter Lanterns relate to it? And the Doll. Were they some personal assistents of Mensis like that Doll once may have been.
I think guiding the spirits of the dead probably has more to do with messengers than hunters or the player
justaguy500 I would agree
Redgrave DotA Ily redgravedota
I can't even begin to express how glad I am that you're continuing to make videos. Keep it up, sir!
Not sure if anyone has mentioned but something jumped out fromt he wikipedia entry for hōzuki. It's used as a sedative...
Physalis alkekengi (bladder cherry, Chinese lantern,[2] Japanese-lantern,[3] strawberry groundcherry,[4] or winter cherry;[2] Japanese: hōzuki)
The dried fruit of P. alkekengi is called the golden flower in the Unani system of medicine, and used as a diuretic, antiseptic, liver corrective, and sedative.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physalis_alkekengi
LOL that ending! The smurk on your face... priceless! Lore-hunters delight, we should call it. The way you rub your hands when you've found a big connection... I don't know if that was done on purpose or if it was true emotion, but in any case... it was fun as hell to watch you gush over a discovery like that!
Dude. Your content is gold. You would make a great teacher. Seriously. If you could find a way to teach a class that uses Bloodborne to discuss Lovecraft, I think you would have a promising career. Not that you won't in whatever else you choose to do! I knew a guy in college who taught a semester class on Batman. Just Batman. Anything is possible. But seriously. I just got back into Bloodborne and was looking around for things to satisfy hearing about the game 24/7 again. I came across your content and I'm obsessed. Bummed you aren't working on it but understand that you are done with it. Hope you're well and working on great things.
Also, funny side note? When you were talking about the Hunter's mark and that guy wanted to get it as a tattoo and you said that video game tattoos are lame?? Yeah I watched that while the Hunters mark was tattooed squarely on my back haha I couldn't quit laughing 😆
Got linked here from your post on reddit asking the community if they wanted Paleblood Hunt part 2. Anyway, I love hearing you breakdown this stuff! Cheers!
Excellent video man! I loved your insight into the meaning of "winter lantern." I also appreciated the evidence for winter lantern = doll (I had only heard about the dress similarity.) Keep up the good work Redgrave!
I love all this lore, and you present it so well! I've tried to read your Paleblood essay, but my eyes are pretty awful, and it takes a long while for me to be able to finish things, so these lore videos are so important to me :) Thanks a lot for making them!
I think its pretty sweet I got that dialogue first play through ^_^
I thought that, much like Dark Souls 3, Rom represented a binding of sorts - preventing time or reality setting in, where the Great Ones/Amygdalas descend once more. I thought that, like DS3's Princess holding the egg, once the truth of that situation was uncovered, the world would be flung forth into the nightmare of present reality, as opposed to the moments just before.
It was also my belief that the body Abrietas appeared to be mourning was, indeed, the body of Rom - and that, like the Great Ones, Rom existed in more than one dimension. So their body was lying on the alter of Despair (perhaps after a failed attempt to resurrect Rom?) but their spirit or essence still existed in the pocket dimension of the Lake.
Also, on the flowers, that led me to believe there was some sort of love story going on, either between Rom and Paleblood, or Paleblood and some other Great One like Kos - and that being the reason that Paleblood seized Gehrman and imprisoned him forever in the Hunter's Dream to do their bidding... both an act of mercy for a kindred spirit who also lost a loved one, and the most cruel punishment for the loss of its loved one.
I don't fackin know. This game cray.
Well, the Doll does channel (guide) blood echoes(spirits of the dead) into us to make us stronger. Idk just a theory
Darkbeasts? Well I am curious in general about the design of them. In the back of my head I am thinking: "Oh so cliche, take the stereotypical werewolf design..." I would love to know why they chose this design, why they went with werewolf type look? Everything else seems so unique but these -- just for some reason for me they stick out. Yes I can see the transformation from man to beast in many monsters but why are they transforming into these wolf like creatures? Wolves are very intelligent, seems like a bad animal to pick to show off the worst in humanity. They do sort of group together like wolves, but still. Alien blood but we transform to wolves. Anyways that's what I am actually curious about. Thanks for making these.
Dima Parachute I understand you are talking about Dark Beasts in particular but I believe they follow the same transformation as what leads to Scourge Beasts. Unless I am totally wrong... In any case if you can cover that, cool.
If we're talking about flowers in Bloodborne then I think it would be an oversight to not include the flower-headed brainsucker-esque enemies that latched themselves onto an enemy with a gaping toothed abdomen that is quite similar to Moon Presence. I refer to the enemies in Chalices and at Bergynwerth, the ones that can use cosmic arcane magic to summon meteors. When these enemies are killed we find that the actual thing casting the magic was a four-legged tick-like being with a glowing blue flower sprouting from its head or body.
I might be late for the discussion but I have looked at the flowers in the Hunter’s Dream and they seem to be white lilies. White lilies symbolize the “innocence that has been restored to the soul of the departed” I interpret that as the innocence as the hunter wakes up from the dream.
Since a big part of the Hunter’s Dream is a graveyard it seems fitting that they would use the flowers for the symbolic purpose of not only consoling us the player but also establish a life and death cycle of the hunters that came across the dream and were eventually put to death by Gehrman.
Anyways, love this community and your work. Hope you’re doing great!
I haven't had a moment to get a good look at the flowers in the hunters dream in a while but I remember last time I was looking at them I connected them more to the 'Blooming Coldblood Flowers'. If not in the hunters dream, I'm fairly certain they make up most of the flowers we see in other areas.
- Crow I totally agree with you. I am pretty sure the flowers in the Hunter's Dream are the Coldblood Flowers.
The description says : "Pale vegetation that commonly grows on coldblood in a place long abandoned, that has bloomed into a bright red stygian flower." . Those are literally flowers that grows on cold blood, which could explain why they are so many of them in the Hunter's Dream, especially in that backyard cementary/garden. It shows how much blood has probably been spilled there, or how much corpses are buried underground.
This may also relate back to Oedon, as blood is his essence. Otherwise, if those flowers in the Dream really are Coldblood Flowers, then that would mean that those can only be found in "Dreamlands", as the only other place you can find them is in the Nightmare Frontier.
The winter lanterns might be the dolls unanswered prayers
Another great, insightful video, I'm really curious about Darkbeasts so I'm looking forward to the next one!
Just a thought. Could the seven altars in the hunters dream represent the classical planets. Sun - Moon - Mercury - Venus - Mars - Jupiter + Saturn.
Which Lovecraft book do you mention at the start of the video? I've listened to a lot of audio books, and did some reading online but it hurt my eyes quite a bit, and would like a comprehensive physical copy of a good portion of his works.
Genkakuzai you can find quite a few digital copies on Amazon on the cheap
Was this made before Old Hunters? There's the big sunflowers by the failures.
8:53 Oy you sly dog, you ;3
The hunters symbol is the rune of sacrifice from berserk manga.
"Look at the flowers" seems appropriate.
I actually DID know the cultural background of the Obon festival, but just _in general_. It didn't click in my mind as being related to the Winter Lanterns though as the monsters don't seem to have a connection to guiding dead people, and they neither look particularly lantern or flower-like. I initially thought they might have been inspired by will-o-the-wisps, which are said to lead people astray, possibly causing them to wander forever. I figured "Eh, it's like they attract you near with the lights and nice singing, but they're dangerous and cause you to lose your mind? Makes sense."
The only way to enter a nightmare is to die in the waking world, so maybe that's their way of guiding the dead.
Obviously our Hunter can transcend through realms with the powers given by the messengers/ moon presence
Maybe this video was before the DLC but what about the flowers that appear in the garden in the hunters nightmare version of the choir, and also the majestic massive versions found in the living failures boss room. I wonder if they’re what lumen flowers look like when they open up.
There was that thing about "lining the brain with eyes", and a Winter Lantern is a brain covered in eyes - or a brain lined with eyes that's been turned inside out. From what I can see the messenger corpses are only on top of the brain, not the entire constituents of it.
nice video as always
did anyone notice that the statue in the dream above the altar where you inprint runes looks like a doll? Statude is leaning on the tomb stone (perhaps watching over it) and it has stiched forehead if you look closely.
This is speculation ahead but the way i see it could go both ways: either doll was recreated looking like the statue or the statue was created looking like a doll.
Hey just remembred that there are this flowers in nightmare frontier as well. You can also find biger flowers there such as in lumflower gardens in the reigion where the winter lanterns are. There is also item coldblood flower for the chalice dungeons that says this flowers grow in abandoned locations.
what I don't see talked a lot about are the 2 different flowers in the hunters dream. in the normal area we have the flowers and they have 7 petals. in the boss area though they only seem to have 5. what's also weird is the flowers are very visually close to easter lilies, a flower native to Japan's area that are tied to purity, virginity, death, and rebirth (basically the flower of Jesus). odd though, cause easter lilies neither have 7 or 5 petals. I think the difference in petals is pretty significant, but I have no idea what that might be
another great video dude. keep em up
Also maybe the Brain of Mesis is trying to attract you with the Winter Lanterns (by mimicking the Doll's appereance) to release and kill it.
You say that piece of dialogue is rare, but I must have heard it 3 or 4 times already in my playthrough. She seemed to do it most before I killed Rom, I wasn't really paying attention to the triggers because I didn't think it was that rare.
Heyy how about all the spiders who are just everywhere ??? That sounds like something if you like you could talk about. The spiders in the nightmare of mensis whith faces you know they have amuletts which I think are green - just a weird detail some may never have noticed.
Aren't the lumenflowers the pods we find in the Emissary boss room? The flowers found in the Hunter's Dream are completely different, unless the lumenflowers are some kind of bastardization created by the Choir.
Hope you enjoyed Seattle! My home town
I think there are also Lumenflowers sprouting around the first Lamp in Yahar Ghul.
i've seen her at that grave several times. i didn't know it was that rare
I'm curious if you're opinion on Flora has changed since the Gherman's cut dialogue where he refers to the moon pressence as Flora surfaced
Redgrave I am looking forward to your thoughts on Darkbeasts.
I have heard it a couple of times but I have done 30+ playthrough's so you know
Can you please talk about Bone Ash set in your next video ? It's my favourite set bar trousers so I really want to understand the lore behind it.
"The keepers, who mind the slumbering Great Ones, gained eternal life, preserved in ashen form in a ceremony of flame that cremated body and soul.
The long, pointed hat is a symbol of the old keepers and is considered evidence of their companionship, forged in a certain sin."
What that sin might be ?
Also the mask has 8 eyes so I guess those keepers were granted more eyes ?
Are the Winter Lanterns failed attempts by Gherman at recreating Maria?
They're failed attempts of the Healing Church creating ascended beings [patients in research hall] that then only exist in the nightmares [predominantly Mensis, and one at the Hamlet]
I'd like to know more about the NPC Hunters you have to fight. Not Eileen, Alfred, Gascoigne, Henryk or Djura. The unnamed or less looked over ones: the Yaharghul Hunters, The choir member in the Nightmare of Mensis, The Cainhurst Crow, etc. What are your thoughts?
Pls come back redgrave.
I know in 3 years too late but I love this seriese and am curious if there is another game/story that has caught your interest more recently
@redgrave the messagers are actually the spirits of all the dead great ones infants
she's guiding the dead children of great ones
Actually the messengers are the souls of the Ailing Bastards of Loran, aka infants whose mothers had the plague of beasts causing them to die in the womb before they could be born.
on the topic of the doll, there are alot of things I dont get.
like even tho the dolls clothes tell us "dolls cannot bleed or cry" yet the doll in the dream can do both. not only does the doll bleed, but the doll bleeds white blood. (would that be considered paleblood?)
also the winter lanterns if im not mistaken bleeds normal red blood.
also is there anything more you could add to gehrman making the doll in marias image?
My personal theory, even though this is only one small piece of evidence to back it up is that Gehrman turned Maria's corpse into the doll. We find the old hunter's bone on Maria's grave outside of the real workshop just laying on the grave implying that the bone was either on the ground or not buried very deeply. It also looks to me like the bone was broken in half. We also know that Gehrman was obsessed with Maria to the point of mania. In my mind Gehrman removed all the bones and organs from Maria's corpse and used his skills as a craftsman to turn her into a doll. A doll isn't supposed to bleed or cry, but perhaps a corpse can?
come back to us please
See i just don't know about the Winter Lanterns... Cause Bloodbornes world feels so convoluted and honestly questionable at times whether most places you visit are even in or was ever a real physical form... I can't help but feel that outside the starting areas, that most places you go to are just pure dreams and fabrications. Also the WL's only seem to show up in very unreal looking areas (Places completely distorted like Mirgo's Loft or The Nightmare area with all the Crawlers.. I just can't help but feel those kinds of places tell me that the winter lanterns don't even truly exist, they are more so an amalgamation of distrust or disdain for the doll from maybe Gherman or all the hunters that came before us... Hard to tell but it's just my opinion on the whole thing... I just feel that things are more so deep-seeded, uncontrollable figments of someones or everyone's collective dreams, and idk about anyone else, but i always called bullshit on people who say "oh well its a dream, you can do whatever you want in them." Bullshit!!! I've always just been some poor soul whose strapped in and stuck for the whole ride, no matter how fucked up it will get....
You're right, the winter lanterns don't really exist, only in Nightmares. The only way to enter these Nightmares is to die in the waking world (obviously our Hunter is excluded as we can transcend realms with the powers of the Messengers/ Moon Presence).
Nightmares are made up of bad memories, so a lot of things are badly remembered (DLC Yarnham map, for example). And I think the Winter Lanterns are bad (inaccurate/ incomplete) memories of the doll, mixed with the pain of Maria and Research Patients. A true abomination.
And when we face these creatures, we absolutely lose our mind that one of these things can even exist.
Flora gave life to the Doll to guide the spirits of the dead, Mergo's Wetnurse gave life to the deceased Research Patients to guide the spirits of the dead, but with more sinister intent inspired by pain.
Honestly the Whole Mensis Nightmare area feels like an embodiment of pain/ suffering.
You didn't mention the coldblood flowers (chalice ingredients).
What if Flora = Monn Presence ?
robert trop Doesn't really make any sense to me; I don't see any way of linking the two, and the Moon Presence is explicitly called Nameless. If Flora is indeed being used as a Proper Noun, the only possible thing I could think of where it would make sense would be if she were referring to the collective messengers as Flora.
Redgrave DotA regarding your last sentence in the awaking cinematic messengers protect you from a scourge beast or so it looks like.
+Redgrave I know I'm late to this conversation but while trying to figure out the significance of the winter lantern's relation with the doll, I ran across the /r/bloodborne thread "On the etymology of "Winter Lanterns"
"vmoth: In Japan, its seeds are used as part of the Bon Festival as offerings to guide the souls of the deceased...
...deleted: Sounds like a really sarcastic name when you combine that definition
with their million little Flytrap mouths and being covered in 'lost
souls'.
...CrayolaAutumn: If that's true, and Miyazaki knows about it, that's a really cruel joke."
If your connection with the messengers being capitalized "Flora" in the Dolls prayer, do you think Miyazaki grinned a bit when FromStudios came up with the hozuki enemy?
what I don't see talked a lot about are the 2 different flowers in the hunters dream. in the normal area we have the flowers and they have 7 petals. in the boss area though they only seem to have 5. what's also weird is the flowers are very visually close to easter lilies, a flower native to Japan's area that are tied to purity, virginity, death, and rebirth (basically the flower of Jesus). odd though, cause easter lilies neither have 7 or 5 petals. I think the difference in petals is pretty significant, but I have no idea what that might be
what I don't see talked a lot about are the 2 different flowers in the hunters dream. in the normal area we have the flowers and they have 7 petals. in the boss area though they only seem to have 5. what's also weird is the flowers are very visually close to easter lilies, a flower native to Japan's area that are tied to purity, virginity, death, and rebirth (basically the flower of Jesus). odd though, cause easter lilies neither have 7 or 5 petals. I think the difference in petals is pretty significant, but I have no idea what that might be