While the ferry uses a lot more fuel per hour, you need to compare apples to apples: passenger miles per gallon. The ferry is more fuel efficient than a Cadillac Escalade if both are carrying a full load.
That sail is good for day and bay sailing Out there in high rough seas ... waves coming down on you ... You’re truly in trouble when you need the sails hauled in or reefing to the max/ min
This technology has been available for decades. Maybe not with all the electronics and automation as now but the basic principle of a fixed but moveable two sided wing has been experimented with since the 60's. The only problem for smaller sailboats or powercraft is that the wings can't be furled in a storm.
That's a problem for larger sailboats too. Arguably more so. Look at all the commercial sailing vessels from the end of the great age of sail and the trend is pretty clear: Lots of small sails which can be furled or unfurled depending on weather conditions. They didn't do that for shits and giggles, all that rigging was expensive, they did it because it was strictly necessary to get their vessel there in one piece.
a lot of it had to to with limited manpower and lower strength of materials as well as weather. They didn't use winches back then, only block and tackle and sailcloth was HEAVY then.
The wings don't need to be furled. When set at the neutral position, they naturally weather vane and create far less drag than a rolled up sail or even a bare mast.
Sure, you can move a ferry with wind power, but... 1) How fast will it go, will people want to wait longer to get across? 2) What do you do when there's no wind? 3) Controlling power with wing-sails is tougher than they think, this is why traditional sails can be "dropped", big problem if you need to stop in high variable-direction winds. 4) The boat is going to need tremendous sail/wing structures to move the weight that ferries usually move. Lots of problems with using wing sails for commercial purposes, lots. More than these guys have thought through. That is not to say that they are not the future, but they're not the immediate future.
the issue with sailing is no wind = no movement. I am a sailor and even a sailing instructor, needless to say, I love sailing. It just doesn't seem like a real option with the repair and upkeep cost for a sailboat.
The proven sail assisted technology developed by Japanese, will most likely be used in conjunction with hybrid to power commercial ships. A great opportunity exists now to Do It.
Both sides of a 'soft' sail work exactly like an aircraft wing...the wind going into the belly of the sail pushes against the sail while at the same time (except when the wind is from 'behind' the boat), the air going around the opposite side of the sail produces lift in the vertical plane. Both of these forces combine and, with the keel and rudder, drive the boat forward. Additionally, the selection of the particular sails and their geometry, can be quickly altered to affect performance of the boat and comfort of the crew. Rigid sails are for auxillary power only. Ironically, the motor on a sailboat, whether a smoker or electric (ahem), is the aux power while the sails are the main power. If, however, you want to experience a ' rigid ' sail plan then join a qualified and stalwort crew and enjoy some storm sailing!
Both if these sails are "wings". The "soft" sails just function like cambered wings they used to have in the early days whereas rigid wings function like the modern glider wings.
Wing sails have been around for decades.. Nothing new about that at all. The C class Cats have been using them since the early days of the "little Americas Cup".. In the late 90s there were even Solar Wing sails on some ferries.
Shouldn't be a problem. It would just weather vane into the wind. The aerodynamics are such that it would have less wind resistance than a regular "bare pole" mast. Think about it, airplane wings typically operate at wind-speeds greater than 70 mph (which is the takeoff speed for many light aircraft), so anything less than hurricane force winds would have little effect.
Dilandau88 Yep, you're right. I remember when Steinlager 1 was parked on a swing mooring in the Bay of Islands in NZ. She only had a very wide rotating wing mast not a wing sail, yet even when you let that mast self feather while moored, it sailed around its mooring like an agitated dog on a leash.
@William: Fixed wing aircraft only take wind pressure from one direction. Even if this thing feathers, it'd still be a lot of force and it could be coming beam on rather than head on. Think about an aircraft getting hit by storm winds from the side while on the ground rather than one flying through the storm airbourne. That'd be more accurate.
Yes I think you are right . An a ircraft wing is not a valid comparison . For a start it is going to have to be massively larger than any aircraft wing to have a worthwhile effect. Aircraft wings only have to provide lift in vast wind speeds provided by the engine. They have not been successful in the sailing world. Notice that none of the Americas cup boats use them. They are probably too heavy. In UK we won the Little Americas Cup in Emma Hamilton back in about '62 against the Yanks with a wing mast but I don't think they have been used since. In short not enough drive for the weight.
If this was a cost-effective solution, you wouldn't have to get government to force people to use it. Ferry operators are acutely aware of what fuel costs. If sticking a few thousand dollars worth of computer-controlled sail on the boat would really save fuel, owners would be fighting to buy them. Seriously though, one of the good things about cloth sails is that they can be taken down out of the wind altogether when the wind blows too hard. Rigid sail always present the problem of having to be lifted off the boat with a crane and stored in a very large building when they are too much area to present to the wind.
Big problem, at the speed of most ferries (average 20MPH) the apparent wind will almost always be in the no go zone from ahead (unless the wind is very strong) nulling the usefulness of a sail. Wind would have to be 20MPH or more to even give assistance downwind.
A point about "twice the efficiency" of a regular sail: I call BS. A sail and a wing work in exactly the same way. They produce lift (thrust in this case). The efficiency can be be measured by the Lift/Drag ratio and the Maximum Lift Coefficient. Their wing has a symmetrical airfoil which is incapable of generating high Clmax - around 1.0-1.2 might be a reasonable expectation. A sail can produce around 1.7. Simple function of camber; their camber is zero. Drag for the wing would be lower, but at the low speeds these operate, a high CL max is more relevant. It's a nice idea, and one that has been around forever, but it has too many disadvantages. There is no way it is twice as efficient, not without elaborate camber changing devices.
PDZ1122 I think that is very optimistic, but I can see there being less turbulence with this due to no mast and so on and so forth. (It's 3AM I am tired....) there by giving the same power just losing less, aerodynamics are kinda touch and go with me, that's just my best guess....
Kinda sounds like you just pulled some basic formulas off the web and excluded all other factors. these two dudes have actually put this wing together and tested it on the ocean so I’m gonna trust them
The essence of green technology isn't a market based solution. Anything you can't use the coercive power of government to achieve isn't worth doing. The main thing is to compel people to accept your thinking.
Will need a pretty big sail in order to power the ferries to the current performance. What are you supposed to do with your sail if the weather gets too extreme? Dump it over the side? Don't you ever wonder why a sailing ship had many sails to choose from and a large crew to get the sails off if the weather turns bad? What if its calm, it will just cause windage and use more fuel. Why don't you build yourselves a ferry type vessel and demonstrate how your "sail" can power it in all conditions? You might notice that wing sails are fine on in shore racing yachts, but there are not too many upon which are expected to go out in any weather. Good luck.
300 gallons an hour... thats one gallon per person per hour.. escalade one person, thats 4 gallons per person per hour..yall are way beyond insaneeeeeeeeeee
Clever invention! I would really like to see this one become a reality. Obviously the wing works on smaller boats, but i can't help wondering if it would work on a large ferry? A vessel of that size would either require one massive wing or lots of smaller ones. There are some things to consider. One has to regard the hight of the vessel. Will it be able to pass under bridges? What will happen if confronted with a storm if you can't take the wing down? The behaviour of a large ferry will be different with a wing, or rather, wings. The design of ferries may have to be changed for this invention to work, which takes time and cost a lot of money. As good an idea as I think this is, I think it will take a long time before we see wings on ferries.
love your story, i had to leave sailing, (back surgery) so i am a "dirty diesel " runner now, but wish i could use your wing back in the day very nice hope it works for you, good on ya
Lets go back to Galleon Trading or back to using big sails with high mast. Just armed them with hellfire missiles to defend themselves against pirates.
Cawfee Dawg I think I understand what you mean .. but the idea of not being able to have a collapsable sail is a bit disconcerting. .. The only way to know for sure is to get that boat out into blue water and wait for the gales to test the theory .. hopefully without having to sacrifice a soul. ✌️😎⛵️
You are right but unfortunately the most who commented has no clue about aerodynamic and are "Clued" to their belief... See all the argument / fighting's about Monohuul and Multihuul's out of ignorance and missing knowledge! But we are all human and make sometime mistakes / misunderstanding and wrong decisions (ME Include ... I not better... I just TRY to get better by learning "NEW" things / Technology.)
Ferries on short routes like this are perfect for battery powered electric propulsion. Charge the battery on both ends while loading and unloading so that it doesn't need an enormously large battery. You immediately get the benefit of no local diesel emissions. Lack of engine noise and vibration makes it more pleasant for passengers. Once it's put into operation, the boat is as green as the grid. Make the grid greener, and the boat automatically gets greener. You could use it in conjunction with one of these sails, but I'm not sure why you'd bother.
A two-sided, symmetrical "wing" (airfoil) doesn't even make sense. An airfoil operates on the fact that the wing is not symmetrical, you need this asymmetry to produce a difference in pressure on opposing sides of the wing (according to Bernoulli's principle). Without this pressure differential you don't have lift (force). The only way that I can see a symmetrical wing working, is to operate it at such high angles of attack that the wing is constantly on the verge of stalling, effectively making the airflow around the wing asymmetric due to inertia. From my understanding this would also mean the wing is generating maximum drag (non-laminar flow) and would be very inefficient. Effectively, what I'm saying is you aren't "doubling" the power of the airfoil by making it symmetrical - that's ludicrous. Even if what you were saying were true, the force pushing on either side of the wing would be equal to the force pushing on the other side and you would have a net 0 force...
Aerobatic airplanes have symetrical wings. No lift is created while the wing has a zero angle of attack (the angle of the wing against the direction of wind). Like all wings, increasing the angle of attack increases lift.
Symmetrical airfoils generate lift when they have an angle of attack that is not zero. Cambered airfoils may generate lift at angle of attack of zero and have better L/D ratios. But symmetrical foils are still viable.
Wing sails have been around for a long time. There are too many flaws in their proposition to make a viable sailing ferry to list. I support investigating green technologies but making silly/stupid claims like these arrogant people have done is very annoying. Keep it real!
Pipe dreams. All you do is turn the wing on and off. It has GPS, computer, satellite tracking, and knows where its going. Then... There's a power failure. So you start the diesel engine and go the "dirty diesel route". All that tech manufacturing from mining minerals to production, must use petroleum is some form along the way. Can't get away from it.
Wow, didn't know the earth needed saving. Will it blow up or something if we continue on our path? Will it melt? Will it vanish in a black hole or something?
Inflatable sails could be taken down when in a storm ☔️ vertical wind generators could be effective in making power to store temporarily in batteries in conjunction with direct drive through hydraulic systems. Submarine batteries hold lots of power 💥.
I wonder whether it wouldn't be better to have a windmill on the ferry charging batteries for an electric drive. The advantage would be that the windmill can run 24 hours a day and works even when the ferry is docked.
Seeing as how it lifted the boat while Saling in very moderate conditions my concern is, what about a real storm crossing the Atlantic with squalls of 40n heating without warning, it will flip you I should think?
So what happens when the software glitches or an electrical component dies at sea? If you think about it, sailing hasn't really changed much since the beginning. There's a reason for that. It's like the wheel, it just works.
A wing like this is nice for reaching but on a run, there's nothing like a good old spi'. I've seen this concept also tested by Beneteau, but if it's still a prototype, it must hide flaws.
It's about building ships with these and more efficient (electric?) powertrains to conserve fuel. It's not a sailing yacht. It's a yacht with an auxiliary sail. Different concept. It's quite ironic to look at this from 7 years in the future. Very relevant today.
For this kind of fixed wing sails, how do you stop the boat when the wind is still blowing strongly especially during a hurricane or typhoon situation while the boat is anchored at a specific spot in the ocean?
It would be more persuasive if these guys knew their subject well enough to know that ferries have engines, not motors, or that the Vanderbilt fortune started with sail ferries but without government mandate.
So heres the deal, this might work on small sailboats, but you run the risk of moving the center of mass too high upwards, and you can't reef the sail. In a ferry you have different problems. One, ferries are made to be sailed on a schedule based on the time, not the wind. It's difficult to be consistent if you rely on wind as your primary source of power. Two, you run the risk of overpowering your sail and because you cannot heel over in a ferry you could potentially damage your sail/boat. Three, a boat's maximum speed is not dependent by how much forward force you have, it's dependent on your hull, because a boat slides through the water, not glides overtop it. But problems get amplified once you get into large oil tankers. Now, oil tankers are huge, so they will need huge sails. Huge sails means huge masts. Huge masts means lots of internal deck support. You get to the point where the support for the mast is stronger than the support holding the ship together. Here's the problem. Because oil tankers are so long, the wind might be different for the bow and for the stern. Say your going straight downwind. You have full sails out, your stern gets hit by a powerful gust. Suddenly the stern part of the boat drastically overpowers but it can't move forward as there is so much drag in the water and your bow isn't powering up. Quickly the tension builds in the midsection of the ship. At the same moment you get hit by a strong wave and the midsection snaps, spilling oil into the ocean, and your ship sinks. Also, seems a little ironic that the invention designed to reduce CO2 emissions will be used on a ship hauling oil.
Ever heard of Walker wing sail multis? Nothing new here, been tried before, don't see many of them out there, good luck in a gale with 60 70 knot winds, 600 hundred pounds up there?
i think the video should explain some more, wut i get now is that we can replace a tradition sail with one that looks like and airplanes' wing and it is efficient, but how efficient is it , how is it innovative , how does it works
The boat seemed rather slow. If the intention is to move a ship through water with wind force, what's wrong with using a traditional sailship? Run a small diesel (or even electric / photovoltaic) to power the winches etc and you can sail a 100 ft sailship wit 2 persons....
Cadillac vs. Ferry is the basis for your maths? I person @ 19 mpg vs 1,500 reluctant fishermen @ .3(?) mpg is no contest. Wrong comparison by a factor of 23 times more efficient.
think of it this way.... a sail, is essentially an airplane wing, standing vertically....the airfoil cross-section, results in airflow differential, just like the way a plane's wing provides lift.....but because it's vertically mounted, instead of "lifting" the wing, it tries to move it to the side. by varying the way the wing angles into the wind, it varies the amount of force....the interaction between the wing, and the dagger boards, results in forward motion for the ship......modern super-fast catamarans use very similar technology....fast enough, they're actually hydrofoils....
The big advantage of a controlled foil is that they can be made to put the leading edge directly into the wind for absolute minimum resistance if a storm picks up.
Eberything you said was an extreme exaggeration. That catamaran was extremely rocking side to side as that thing just spun in circles and you cut the video right there. Would be dangerous and very uncomfy in open seas
....so give all the ferry passengers a long oar and make them row across. That would save fuel and help the passengers lose weight. BTW, talking of overweight, do you need the stability of a trimaran cos that BS weighs 600 lbs?
The concept is great, but there are other designs from Europe and Asia that have been in development for quite some time and are suitable for real sailing conditions. The bigger issue is the cost and getting sailboat owners to buy in.
There was only one true innovator with wingsails, John Walker from Walker Wingsails. The rest are cheap knockoffs. I plan to build a trimaran by his example in a few years, with current technology it will rock. (i build and repair ships for a living and have engineering degree and relevant experience in electrical, electronical and hydraulics so this will be my retirement project)
I would love to have seen a mock-up of a proposed sail-enhanced ferry or container ship design, with some modeling data. Have any of the ferry-making designers weighed-in on the idea of this augmentation? Love the concept (Yes, that is a conventional sail in my logo image, stolen with pride from an image of Onne van der Wal of Newport/Jamestown - Thanks Onne!)
Rigid wing sails have been around for a while (America's Cup boats use them) to yeah, we *have* seen a sail like this. But that doesn't stop it from being a great idea.
While the ferry uses a lot more fuel per hour, you need to compare apples to apples: passenger miles per gallon. The ferry is more fuel efficient than a Cadillac Escalade if both are carrying a full load.
I'll keep my cloth sails, thank you. good luck with the commercial aspect, I wish you success.
John Walker did this 25 years ago (Walker Wingsail). People forget. And it appears he did it better than anyone since.
That sail is good for day and bay sailing
Out there in high rough seas ... waves coming down on you ...
You’re truly in trouble when you need the sails hauled in or reefing to the max/ min
Maybe. But the theory is that you set the angle of attack very low and the sail will just barely provide lift.
The drag of the wing is less than mast plus rigging etc.
This technology has been available for decades. Maybe not with all the electronics and automation as now but the basic principle of a fixed but moveable two sided wing has been experimented with since the 60's. The only problem for smaller sailboats or powercraft is that the wings can't be furled in a storm.
That's a problem for larger sailboats too. Arguably more so. Look at all the commercial sailing vessels from the end of the great age of sail and the trend is pretty clear: Lots of small sails which can be furled or unfurled depending on weather conditions. They didn't do that for shits and giggles, all that rigging was expensive, they did it because it was strictly necessary to get their vessel there in one piece.
I like Beneteau's Wingsail idea. It can be furled, or rather collapsed when needed
a lot of it had to to with limited manpower and lower strength of materials as well as weather. They didn't use winches back then, only block and tackle and sailcloth was HEAVY then.
The wings don't need to be furled. When set at the neutral position, they naturally weather vane and create far less drag than a rolled up sail or even a bare mast.
What do you do with the wing when you are caught in a storm or squall, and the wind gusts to dangerous velocities?
You set the wing to neutral and it weather vanes. Less drag than a bare mast. Much less.
@@slrs3908 Until it jams.
@@slrs3908 Typical answer from someone that has never been on the open ocean during a storm. The sea breaks everything.
Sure, you can move a ferry with wind power, but...
1) How fast will it go, will people want to wait longer to get across?
2) What do you do when there's no wind?
3) Controlling power with wing-sails is tougher than they think, this is why traditional sails can be "dropped", big problem if you need to stop in high variable-direction winds.
4) The boat is going to need tremendous sail/wing structures to move the weight that ferries usually move.
Lots of problems with using wing sails for commercial purposes, lots. More than these guys have thought through. That is not to say that they are not the future, but they're not the immediate future.
"the crew doesn't even need to know how it works" that's comforting. looks like it's gonna capsize.
I LOVE this concept. I've been dreaming of sail powered container ships for years. I'm glad someone is working on concepts like this! -Chad
the issue with sailing is no wind = no movement. I am a sailor and even a sailing instructor, needless to say, I love sailing. It just doesn't seem like a real option with the repair and upkeep cost for a sailboat.
This hybrid route is the solution for now I think. One day we could have this and electric motors to power sustainably.
I wouldn't really call them "sails" but there are ships that are partly powered by Flettner rotors. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flettner_rotor
The proven sail assisted technology developed by Japanese, will most likely be used in conjunction with hybrid to power commercial ships. A great opportunity exists now to Do It.
It'll never happen, dream on in your fantasy land.
Both sides of a 'soft' sail work exactly like an aircraft wing...the wind going into the belly of the sail pushes against the sail while at the same time (except when the wind is from 'behind' the boat), the air going around the opposite side of the sail produces lift in the vertical plane. Both of these forces combine and, with the keel and rudder, drive the boat forward.
Additionally, the selection of the particular sails and their geometry,
can be quickly altered to affect performance of the boat and comfort of the crew. Rigid sails are for auxillary power only. Ironically, the motor on a sailboat, whether a smoker or electric (ahem), is the aux power while the sails are the main power. If, however, you want to experience a ' rigid ' sail plan then join a qualified and stalwort
crew and enjoy some storm sailing!
Both if these sails are "wings". The "soft" sails just function like cambered wings they used to have in the early days whereas rigid wings function like the modern glider wings.
Wing sails have been around for decades.. Nothing new about that at all. The C class Cats have been using them since the early days of the "little Americas Cup".. In the late 90s there were even Solar Wing sails on some ferries.
Ah, a square wheel.
So many geniuses in the modern world.
So if you're in a harbour docked and a storm comes up, wouldn't your boat being slamming around ? You can't reef or take it down.. it's 600 lbs.
Shouldn't be a problem. It would just weather vane into the wind. The aerodynamics are such that it would have less wind resistance than a regular "bare pole" mast. Think about it, airplane wings typically operate at wind-speeds greater than 70 mph (which is the takeoff speed for many light aircraft), so anything less than hurricane force winds would have little effect.
Dilandau88
Yep, you're right. I remember when Steinlager 1 was parked on a swing mooring in the Bay of Islands in NZ. She only had a very wide rotating wing mast not a wing sail, yet even when you let that mast self feather while moored, it sailed around its mooring like an agitated dog on a leash.
The keel at the top - little effect?
@William: Fixed wing aircraft only take wind pressure from one direction. Even if this thing feathers, it'd still be a lot of force and it could be coming beam on rather than head on.
Think about an aircraft getting hit by storm winds from the side while on the ground rather than one flying through the storm airbourne. That'd be more accurate.
Yes I think you are right . An a ircraft wing is not a valid comparison . For a start it is going to have to be massively larger than any aircraft wing to have a worthwhile effect. Aircraft wings only have to provide lift in vast wind speeds provided by the engine.
They have not been successful in the sailing world. Notice that none of the Americas cup boats use them. They are probably too heavy. In UK we won the Little Americas Cup in Emma Hamilton back in about '62 against the Yanks with a wing mast but I don't think they have been used since.
In short not enough drive for the weight.
Displacement hulls ar displacement speeds are extremely efficient
If this was a cost-effective solution, you wouldn't have to get government to force people to use it. Ferry operators are acutely aware of what fuel costs. If sticking a few thousand dollars worth of computer-controlled sail on the boat would really save fuel, owners would be fighting to buy them. Seriously though, one of the good things about cloth sails is that they can be taken down out of the wind altogether when the wind blows too hard. Rigid sail always present the problem of having to be lifted off the boat with a crane and stored in a very large building when they are too much area to present to the wind.
The "Walker Wingsail" trimaran sailboat was produced for a few years in the UK, starting in the late 70's or the 80's.
As soon as they said 'save the world', I started writing this and CHECKED OUT!!
The fossil promoting the foil is insufferably self-righteous
,
Big problem, at the speed of most ferries (average 20MPH) the apparent wind will almost always be in the no go zone from ahead (unless the wind is very strong) nulling the usefulness of a sail. Wind would have to be 20MPH or more to even give assistance downwind.
In the bay area in summer, you might be surprised how often the wind is strong enough to provide some boost.
A point about "twice the efficiency" of a regular sail: I call BS. A sail and a wing work in exactly the same way. They produce lift (thrust in this case). The efficiency can be be measured by the Lift/Drag ratio and the Maximum Lift Coefficient. Their wing has a symmetrical airfoil which is incapable of generating high Clmax - around 1.0-1.2 might be a reasonable expectation. A sail can produce around 1.7. Simple function of camber; their camber is zero. Drag for the wing would be lower, but at the low speeds these operate, a high CL max is more relevant. It's a nice idea, and one that has been around forever, but it has too many disadvantages. There is no way it is twice as efficient, not without elaborate camber changing devices.
PDZ1122 I think that is very optimistic, but I can see there being less turbulence with this due to no mast and so on and so forth. (It's 3AM I am tired....) there by giving the same power just losing less, aerodynamics are kinda touch and go with me, that's just my best guess....
Please fill us in on where your degree in aerodynamics was issued, I want to ensure that they stop giving degrees.
You can sail upwind with a wing, an indirect efficiency.
@@jaysparc everything he wrote seems correct. Do you see any problems with it?
Kinda sounds like you just pulled some basic formulas off the web and excluded all other factors. these two dudes have actually put this wing together and tested it on the ocean so I’m gonna trust them
Vast overstatement of energy savings. The sanctimony is so thick you could cut it with knife.
I'ts California. They have vaginas.
You said it pal, its California full of green emotive propaganda.
P.S. I love the idea itself I've sailed all my life , but don't stretch the truth
The kids will understand. I college there are only arrogant instructors. A dram of modesty would destroy the average university.
What stupid comments. Not a trace of unbiased math.
makes product and wants to have laws passed to make it mandatory, great business
The essence of green technology isn't a market based solution. Anything you can't use the coercive power of government to achieve isn't worth doing. The main thing is to compel people to accept your thinking.
@@herbertshallcross9775 wow...endorsing the "coercive power of government"! What could posibbly go wrong?
Will need a pretty big sail in order to power the ferries to the current performance.
What are you supposed to do with your sail if the weather gets too extreme? Dump it over the side?
Don't you ever wonder why a sailing ship had many sails to choose from and a large crew to get the sails off if the weather turns bad?
What if its calm, it will just cause windage and use more fuel.
Why don't you build yourselves a ferry type vessel and demonstrate how your "sail" can power it in all conditions?
You might notice that wing sails are fine on in shore racing yachts, but there are not too many upon which are expected to go out in any weather.
Good luck.
This is not that new. Jacques Cousteau did a wing sail on a catamaran back in the 1970s.
Not to mention the turbo sail, which I think is more effective on large ships.
That's a pretty small sail, for weighing 600 pounds!
Plus, the smug coming off these guys is toxic. 😱
OMG ... NOTHING NEW ... I saw this approx 20-30 YEARS AGO ... this ship was called PLANESAIL :-D
The _pursuit of profit_ generally obstructs improved technology from taking root.
300 gallons an hour... thats one gallon per person per hour..
escalade one person, thats 4 gallons per person per hour..yall are way beyond insaneeeeeeeeeee
What happens when you get broadside with a big wave.?
Clever invention! I would really like to see this one become a reality.
Obviously the wing works on smaller boats, but i can't help wondering if it would work on a large ferry? A vessel of that size would either require one massive wing or lots of smaller ones.
There are some things to consider. One has to regard the hight of the vessel. Will it be able to pass under bridges? What will happen if confronted with a storm if you can't take the wing down? The behaviour of a large ferry will be different with a wing, or rather, wings. The design of ferries may have to be changed for this invention to work, which takes time and cost a lot of money.
As good an idea as I think this is, I think it will take a long time before we see wings on ferries.
love your story, i had to leave sailing, (back surgery) so i am a "dirty diesel " runner now, but wish i could use your wing back in the day very nice hope it works for you, good on ya
Lets go back to Galleon Trading or back to using big sails with high mast. Just armed them with hellfire missiles to defend themselves against pirates.
In high winds and big seas you’re screwed . Can’t reef.
it feathers into the wind to reduce power... even if the boat is going down wind the wing will spin around and feather into it.
Cawfee Dawg I think I understand what you mean .. but the idea of not being able to have a collapsable sail is a bit disconcerting. .. The only way to know for sure is to get that boat out into blue water and wait for the gales to test the theory .. hopefully without having to sacrifice a soul. ✌️😎⛵️
Even head to wind that's still a lot of turning moment.
You are right but unfortunately the most who commented has no clue about aerodynamic and are "Clued" to their belief...
See all the argument / fighting's about Monohuul and Multihuul's out of ignorance and missing knowledge! But we are all human and make sometime mistakes / misunderstanding and wrong decisions
(ME Include ... I not better... I just TRY to get better by learning "NEW" things / Technology.)
Zero turning moment when head to wind. It's symmetrical - so only generates force when there is a non-zero angle of attack to the airflow.
As a former californian, these guys are blinded by their own arrogance. Dirty diesel? Ignorance is not an acceptable option to intelligence.
Ferries on short routes like this are perfect for battery powered electric propulsion. Charge the battery on both ends while loading and unloading so that it doesn't need an enormously large battery. You immediately get the benefit of no local diesel emissions. Lack of engine noise and vibration makes it more pleasant for passengers. Once it's put into operation, the boat is as green as the grid. Make the grid greener, and the boat automatically gets greener. You could use it in conjunction with one of these sails, but I'm not sure why you'd bother.
How do you furl that thing? What happens when you loose power? What about solar degredation of the foil?
When the weather is bad it won't go so well. Ferry will be here for 100 more years.
4:17- "Our smug goes up to ELEVEN"
I thought I was the only person to be offended by this face.
"We've got such a great idea, we're lobbying politicians to force people to buy it."
Well obviously the government still has a choice if they want to accept it or not. If all they are doing is suggestion then what's the problem?
Can't pull it down or reef it at a moments notice it's a death trap for the boat. But.....hey it saves fuel!
These hacks create a product, then plan on supporting legislation/policies to make their product a requirement? Fail.
A two-sided, symmetrical "wing" (airfoil) doesn't even make sense. An airfoil operates on the fact that the wing is not symmetrical, you need this asymmetry to produce a difference in pressure on opposing sides of the wing (according to Bernoulli's principle). Without this pressure differential you don't have lift (force). The only way that I can see a symmetrical wing working, is to operate it at such high angles of attack that the wing is constantly on the verge of stalling, effectively making the airflow around the wing asymmetric due to inertia. From my understanding this would also mean the wing is generating maximum drag (non-laminar flow) and would be very inefficient.
Effectively, what I'm saying is you aren't "doubling" the power of the airfoil by making it symmetrical - that's ludicrous. Even if what you were saying were true, the force pushing on either side of the wing would be equal to the force pushing on the other side and you would have a net 0 force...
Aerobatic airplanes have symetrical wings. No lift is created while the wing has a zero angle of attack (the angle of the wing against the direction of wind). Like all wings, increasing the angle of attack increases lift.
Your aeronautic understanding is faulty. All sorts of aircraft use symmetrical airfoils.
It has two sides so it's twice as efficient LMAO never heard such BS
Symmetrical airfoils generate lift when they have an angle of attack that is not zero. Cambered airfoils may generate lift at angle of attack of zero and have better L/D ratios. But symmetrical foils are still viable.
Wing sails have been around for a long time. There are too many flaws in their proposition to make a viable sailing ferry to list. I support investigating green technologies but making silly/stupid claims like these arrogant people have done is very annoying.
Keep it real!
oldergeologist 7
Pipe dreams. All you do is turn the wing on and off. It has GPS, computer, satellite tracking, and knows where its going. Then... There's a power failure. So you start the diesel engine and go the "dirty diesel route". All that tech manufacturing from mining minerals to production, must use petroleum is some form along the way. Can't get away from it.
The loop can be closed. Only lubrication oil/grease is necessary and even that can be made synthetically. No real need for fossil fuels.
A ferry holds hundreds of people. There is no way that any form of public transit is less efficient than a private automobile.
Wow, didn't know the earth needed saving. Will it blow up or something if we continue on our path? Will it melt? Will it vanish in a black hole or something?
Only an American and only from San Francisco could act like he has invented something new when this technology existed for decades...
800 pounds in that many square feet is "very light"? Do you sell gold at the bazaar?
So a really really expensive sail that can't be taken down, cant be fixed if broken, and captures less wind than cloth.
I have a better idea - a Nuclear ferry!
"...not meant to replace the motor..." These guys drink the coolaid of the NorCal ninnies.
what do you do when you need to dump sail power to enter a marina and dock?
use evfein mist hybré power sailerß
Walker WingSail did that ten years ago.
Inflatable sails could be taken down when in a storm ☔️ vertical wind generators could be effective in making power to store temporarily in batteries in conjunction with direct drive through hydraulic systems. Submarine batteries hold lots of power 💥.
I wonder whether it wouldn't be better to have a windmill on the ferry charging batteries for an electric drive. The advantage would be that the windmill can run 24 hours a day and works even when the ferry is docked.
I do not want to meet these arrogant people.
So we are morally deficient by not investing in your product? Nice sales pitch brah
Seeing as how it lifted the boat while Saling in very moderate conditions my concern is, what about a real storm crossing the Atlantic with squalls of 40n heating without warning, it will flip you I should think?
When feathered, the drag is less than a conventional rig under bare poles.
So what happens when the software glitches or an electrical component dies at sea? If you think about it, sailing hasn't really changed much since the beginning. There's a reason for that. It's like the wheel, it just works.
Well with a wing you are screwed in a storm.
Allessandro well said buddy, make it great and people will want to use it
A wing like this is nice for reaching but on a run, there's nothing like a good old spi'. I've seen this concept also tested by Beneteau, but if it's still a prototype, it must hide flaws.
It's about building ships with these and more efficient (electric?) powertrains to conserve fuel. It's not a sailing yacht. It's a yacht with an auxiliary sail. Different concept. It's quite ironic to look at this from 7 years in the future. Very relevant today.
Nice to know you have your ideology firmly placed as your #1 priority, and objectivity cast off as refuse. Way to go, fully unplugging from reality.
Good idea. I have to see and sail it. The Trimaran looks not so peeforming as it would look like with its original rigg.
For this kind of fixed wing sails, how do you stop the boat when the wind is still blowing strongly especially during a hurricane or typhoon situation while the boat is anchored at a specific spot in the ocean?
It would be more persuasive if these guys knew their subject well enough to know that ferries have engines, not motors, or that the Vanderbilt fortune started with sail ferries but without government mandate.
It's just two words for the same thing
So heres the deal, this might work on small sailboats, but you run the risk of moving the center of mass too high upwards, and you can't reef the sail. In a ferry you have different problems. One, ferries are made to be sailed on a schedule based on the time, not the wind. It's difficult to be consistent if you rely on wind as your primary source of power. Two, you run the risk of overpowering your sail and because you cannot heel over in a ferry you could potentially damage your sail/boat. Three, a boat's maximum speed is not dependent by how much forward force you have,
it's dependent on your hull, because a boat slides through the water, not glides overtop it. But problems get amplified once you get into large oil tankers. Now, oil tankers are huge, so they will need huge sails. Huge sails means huge masts. Huge masts means lots of internal deck support. You get to the point where the support for the mast is stronger than the support holding the ship together. Here's the problem. Because oil tankers are so long, the wind might be different for the bow and for the stern. Say your going straight downwind. You have full sails out, your stern gets hit by a powerful gust. Suddenly the stern part of the boat drastically overpowers but it can't move forward as there is so much drag in the water and your bow isn't powering up. Quickly the tension builds in the midsection of the ship. At the same moment you get hit by a strong wave and the midsection snaps, spilling oil into the ocean, and your ship sinks. Also, seems a little ironic that the invention designed to reduce CO2 emissions will be used on a ship hauling oil.
This is the Californian equivalent of African home made flying machines.
No reefing - no way?
I like the design, the lazy skipper pilot system. I need a ship to put one on now.
Ever heard of Walker wing sail multis? Nothing new here, been tried before, don't see many of them out there, good luck in a gale with 60 70 knot winds, 600 hundred pounds up there?
How safe is the design when very strong winds blow on a normal day, would it make the boat topple down?
What happens if a squall flips the boat 180 deg. - so that the mast/sail is pointing straight down?
i think the video should explain some more, wut i get now is that we can replace a tradition sail with one that looks like and airplanes' wing and it is efficient, but how efficient is it , how is it innovative , how does it works
I assume this works as a stand alone sailboat, if one wishes? Right?
A little computer hick up and the cat is upside down, then you're screwed.
The boat seemed rather slow. If the intention is to move a ship through water with wind force, what's wrong with using a traditional sailship? Run a small diesel (or even electric / photovoltaic) to power the winches etc and you can sail a 100 ft sailship wit 2 persons....
If wing's motor or sensors fail, during a storm, watch out.
I'm not sure. Wouldn't the "tail fin" on the wing make it turn directly into the wind at zero degrees?
So, when will we see this on a real boat for testing ?
When the governor demands it.
how do you take it down in a storm
A copy of Walker Wingsails from Plymouth UK 30 years ago. Nobody bought them so they went out of business
300 gallons per hour for those ferries, is a lie designed to cause dummies to overreact.
Cadillac vs. Ferry is the basis for your maths? I person @ 19 mpg vs 1,500 reluctant fishermen @ .3(?) mpg is no contest.
Wrong comparison by a factor of 23 times more efficient.
no clue how it works. bummer
Airfoil and differences in air pressure
It's like a normal sail, except it sets itself automatically.
think of it this way.... a sail, is essentially an airplane wing, standing vertically....the airfoil cross-section, results in airflow differential, just like the way a plane's wing provides lift.....but because it's vertically mounted, instead of "lifting" the wing, it tries to move it to the side. by varying the way the wing angles into the wind, it varies the amount of force....the interaction between the wing, and the dagger boards, results in forward motion for the ship......modern super-fast catamarans use very similar technology....fast enough, they're actually hydrofoils....
Perhaps if it were made as a semi-ridgid inflatable, with separate sections on the same mast, it could resolve some of the storm/furling concerns.
The big advantage of a controlled foil is that they can be made to put the leading edge directly into the wind for absolute minimum resistance if a storm picks up.
This wing design is not actually new idea there were many wing designs previously developed but in the high winds it is too dangerous hazard.
Eberything you said was an extreme exaggeration. That catamaran was extremely rocking side to side as that thing just spun in circles and you cut the video right there. Would be dangerous and very uncomfy in open seas
..it is a trimaran
Very nice sail thanks
So....you've invented.... a sail?
....so give all the ferry passengers a long oar and make them row across. That would save fuel and help the passengers lose weight.
BTW, talking of overweight, do you need the stability of a trimaran cos that BS weighs 600 lbs?
Love the concept let's take it one step further and skin the sail with flexible solar panels, and also have electric drives.
The concept is great, but there are other designs from Europe and Asia that have been in development for quite some time and are suitable for real sailing conditions. The bigger issue is the cost and getting sailboat owners to buy in.
How do you depower in rough weather.
It's got a serious problem if it can't be folded away.
There was only one true innovator with wingsails, John Walker from Walker Wingsails. The rest are cheap knockoffs.
I plan to build a trimaran by his example in a few years, with current technology it will rock. (i build and repair ships for a living and have engineering degree and relevant experience in electrical, electronical and hydraulics so this will be my retirement project)
What happens in a force 10 ?
Sometimes there's no wind!🌬What is a faster wind system is a kite! And WAY MORE POWERFUL! If it's windy🤷♂️
I would love to have seen a mock-up of a proposed sail-enhanced ferry or container ship design, with some modeling data. Have any of the ferry-making designers weighed-in on the idea of this augmentation? Love the concept (Yes, that is a conventional sail in my logo image, stolen with pride from an image of Onne van der Wal of Newport/Jamestown - Thanks Onne!)
so retrofit or build a ferry to prove what you are saying,
Rigid wing sails have been around for a while (America's Cup boats use them) to yeah, we *have* seen a sail like this. But that doesn't stop it from being a great idea.
My Simi truck used to have sails untill it hit a overpass.