Lightsaber Lore is an Overcomplicated MESS!
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- Опубликовано: 5 июл 2024
- Dive into the heart of Star Wars lightsaber lore with us in this video, where we dissect the overcomplication, inconsistency, and martial impracticality that has plagued these iconic weapons over the years.
Join me as we explore the enigma of lightsaber functionality, shedding light on the often contradictory explanations that surround it. Delve into the perplexing world of lightsaber forms, questioning their martial efficacy and uncovering how their nebulous divisions fail to align with the on-screen lightsaber fights in the main trilogies. If you've ever wondered why the lightsaber lore seems like a tangled web, this video is your guide to unraveling the truth behind the chaos.
chapters:
0:00 (Intro)
0:07 (Don't Cancel Me!)
0:53 (The Lightsaber)
7:25 (The Forms)
14:50 (What I would change)
16:55 (Outro)
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Развлечения
![Darth Vader e i suoi sette passatempi [Star Wars You]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/5X4Yw9hqoe4/mqdefault.jpg)
If you followed this channel for a while you know that I love Star Wars. But I'm also critical of it, because I'm of the mindset that if you love something, you should hold it to a high standard.
One of the things that I've always found to be silly is The overcomplicated, inconsistent, and downright silly lore surrounding lightsabers. Both the way that they function, and the forms of combat that are ascribed to them.
I made it my first video in a series design to make a more interesting, consistent, and martially sound version of the forms.
However... The Star Wars fandom can be toxic. I know that instead of seeing this as a fun exploration of the fandom, and an interesting thought experiment, Some people are going to attack me.
So if you like my videos, please support this one and help me out in the comment section.
I am not going to “CANCLE” you.
lol nope, you shouldn't let the hate consume and conquer you. you do you, you are you, as for this critical point of view and opinion on SW Lore, yes I couldn't agree more with what you've said here. This is what being a fan is about, reception but also criticism if you disagree with something, you're not bashing SW here, you're not doing anything wrong here. Please don't delete this, a discussion like this is what the lore and fans need, we need to be more critical and understanding.
Don't yield to hate!
I understand your concerns about the potential hateful comments you might get on this video. However, I do not believe that these people should be given attention such as deleting this video from YT. With a career as publicly open as that of a YT content creator, you'll always be subjected to hateful comments of various types of oeople, such as random 14 year olds who just need someone whom they can call their "political opponent", or some italians attacking you because of the pineapple on pizza video.
I think you shouldn't dedicate any of your time and mind to those assholes who have nothing better to do than write hateful comments on YT. Instead, focus on the good things in life, and show those bastards how meaningless their words are.
Beware of the Dark Side. Anger, hate, aggression. Dark Side, they are.
Do not give in to hatred. Don't let the Dark Side decide your fate.
Imo just gonna be frank stand on business and stand behind your video and if people being negative and hating FUCK EM THATS WHAT I SAY
While it is true that the best course of action is to make it clear random people looking for a battle will not be welcomed, at this point the chance is far higher that that slighted random person may start a campaign to harass him and doxx him and maybe even encourage others to kill him. Unfortunately, there is a point that an otherwise bleach-resistant toxic video should be taken down if all it does is engender open attack.
I have long thought that lightsabers are amazing simply because they allow you to film a swordfight in dramatic lighting without losing track of the blades.
That is a great thought.
Brilliant take.
That's probably half the reason they made them "glowy" swords in the canon, so it would line up perfectly with great cinematic effects
Also allows stuff like the Dooku v Anakin fight in Attack of the Clones where they kill the lights and let the saber colors have story/moral significance for the characters.
I've always headcanoned (and made into our tabletop Homebrew "canon") that the Forms were all competent, inclusive fighting styles, but separated more by philosophy. The difference between Shi-Cho and Makashi is less learning entirely new systems, but more like learning swordplay from Meyer vs Liechtenauer. Both _work,_ both teach you the same things because there is only so many optimal ways to swing a stick, but each has their sticking points and focuses.
For those that were curious, the way I ruled it was:
Shi-Cho gives you a bonus to damage. Simple, straightforward, always useful.
Makashi gives you a bonus to hit and defend vs melee. You duel. You win melee exchanges.
Soresu gives a significant bonus to all defense. It in no way detracts from offense, but it makes you better at blocking.
Ataru removes the TTRPG's limitation on combat movement. You are free to backflip and dive to your hearts content.
Shien gave a bonus specifically to reflected shots. That's it's deal.
Niman gave a bonus to the dual-wield mechanic, but also let you use a Force power instead of an offhand attack instead of dual-wielding.
Juyo gave you nasty bonuses if you had or were using the Dark Side. It's the "bad guy" form.
And, importantly, as the Jedi leveled, they could pick and simultaneously benefit from multiple forms. After all, if you were able to study and practice both Meyer _and_ Liechtenauer, you would be a better fencer overall, right?
But hey, not like my homebrew can fix bad lore. Ah well, works for my table.
Thanks definetely gonna use this😀
I always thought of Soresnu as being part of a pacifist philosophy, that a jedi shouldn't seek to harm anyone no matter the circumstance. That their goal should be protecting people, not passing judgment.
Wow thanks! Definitely use this, thanks
I like this a lot.
100% hands down on your main point, only different interpretation on each forms
while shi cho is as basic as it gets, a master of form 1 can utilize it in a way it is unpredictable
makashi is hard to describe, it is pretty balanced, doesnt overextend, go for limbs rather than torso so you are less vulnerable to counterattacks
soresu is like a even more passive form of makashi, maintain your guard until the opponent makes a fatal mistake
ataru and djem so are more invasive, by different means
ataru look for gaps of enemy defense, using superior positioning and look for gaps in enemy defense
djem so look for blade to blade, either using bind and wind or simply breaking though enemy guard
The weight factor as well as not having a true edge with the lightsaber has always fascinated me! Not having an edge is the coolest part, because think of how much faster you’d be if you never had to train your edge alignment and focus only on speed and control
personally I thing the do have an edge it just light make it look round! so you don't see the flat of it or the edge witch is why some time it cut right through thing and some time you get that bonce! where the dark saber dose not give of light so you see it shape! you see the the flat of it & the edge! it hilt and emitter all might help lit the wiled know where they are fit the are not all built like cylinder! again the bounce when it hit thing in steed of just cut right through some things! could all so be impart do to light saber resistant materiel! so a combination of both! you know! might make world of difference in light saber combat! agin this just might thoughts!
@@havilar3095 I see what you’re getting at, though I don’t think we’ve ever seen lightsabers bounce off of anything that isn’t specifically said to be lightsaber resistant, like Beskar Steel. The blades are plasma based, so even if you shape the blade like with the Dark Saber, no matter where you touch you’re still touching burning plasma, so even the flat side of the Dark Saber would most likely still burn you. The only way you could make a true flat on a lightsaber that I can see is having two thin strips of Beskar running alongside the blade to create a nonlethal surface, which kinda ruins the whole point lol
@@artsy_dragon_creations key word resistant it could cut steel get trough it! Beskar Steel bein a rare case where it all most immune with Dark saber being the exaptation! and even the would tack time!
and the way i see the flat of the bald steel lethal maybe wit more with bet for deflect other light sabers and blaster bolts! and the heat not quit so refine or concentrated as might be on the edge so while lethal no as much as is would tack more force ore presser to burn/cut through some thing! come pare to edge that would be hotter! idk how the since would really pan out! but id image a Jedi striking at the oppints and light saber resist matter with the flat of there bald more often as the don't want to to kill caue it to bounce and deflect! in sed of the blade witch might case it to heat up and eventually melt/cuts way through! agin id i could be just a beam! idk how it works work eather way jut how i like to see it!
I always thought that the blade 1. having no edge and 2. being dangerously hot was a very interesting combo. A light tap over your opponent's guard could be fight-ending
@@Thickolas pretty sure edge or no edge with how hot it is it could do long it not hit light saber resting materiel! dose not want to be hit by light saber whether it dose or dose not have an edge! it not only could be fight ending but would be! even touch hot metal! or hot pan or water! In real world is painful and distracting and and even debleating! so even just light tap form light saber would be bad! if not for the force and adrenalin from the fight im sure the be nopeing right out of the fight!
I personally would love to have lightsaber combat be overhauled by someone who actually knows what sword combat is and how it works.
I agree that more scrutiny should be employed in the writing of lightsaber combat, but it should be noted that, though similar on their faces, lightsabers are not swords. They are literally a focused beam with infinite cutting edges. Swords typically have only one cutting edge, two max, unless you're talking about some of those weird diamond or triangular daggers, which are more for stabbing anyway, so I guess my point still stands.
Also half-swording, using the blade as brace to help block, etc, is right out. It cuts very easily with little effort unless you're literally cutting through foot thick walls. The main risk of non-force users with a lightsaber was how easily a lapse in attention could end up cutting yourself. You need some superhuman boost in reflexes and focus, whether through the force, cybernetics, or just a shitton of training, to not cut your hand off.
@@Appletank8 Well trained sword fighters don't accidentally collide with their blade. The simpler explanation is that you don't bring a sword to a gun fight. Unless you have force powers and can deflect blaster bolts, blasters are just better. Also crystals are super rare and lightsabers difficult to construct.
@@daven9536 IIRC the "excuse" is that a lightsaber moves weirdly in comparison to a metal pole, and without using the force or brute strength to compensate, it could inertia its way into your shoulder.
But then future SW media kept having regular people pick up a lightsaber and wave it around without issue so that's out the window.
You mean like the swordsmen responsible for the choreography of the Star wars movies?
I like this take on how lightsabers should work and hope that this series continues. Maybe in some future videos you could talk about how the force could play a roll in lightsaber combat
That would be sick, the force would essentially be a compliment to grappling.
I appreciate your bravery in posting this. You make logical points from a place of knowledge and experience. SW fandom should be able to accept your point-of-view.
As a huge pre Disney SW fan, he's correct.
100%. I adore Star Wars. I've absorbed so much of the lore over the decades. The forms are by and large dumb for basically these reasons.
Makashi was interesting because in one of the introductions to it (I want to say the Attack of the Clones novelization?) it was indicated that the "dueling style" was relevant because Jedi didn't fight against anyone with lightsabers anymore, so many of the techniques just weren't taught anymore. The modern Jedi needs to know how to parry blaster bolts, not another lightsaber. And that kind of thing makes sense! And it's described as a very in-line back and forth fencing style of fighting to contrast with the very mobile and spinning Jedi, which makes sense - you're moving so much to be harder to shoot at and close distance with enemies with ranged weapons. And I always thought that was really cool lore!
And then we see it on the big screen and I couldn't have told you who between the four Jedi dueling at the end of AotC was using what style. And that really did suck.
The climax of Revenge is an even better example. Obi-Wan is supposedly the greatest Soresu user of his generation while Anakin excels in... whatever the offensive style is called. And then they fight and mirror moves? What? It just immediately makes me not believe your lore and that's a sign that somebody somewhere fucked up. Which this video is spot on for calling out.
No, a gigantic portion of this video is answered pre-emptively by lore. Ffs, dude talks about the forms like Jedi only ever fought lightsaber-wielders and studied a single form to the total exclusion of the others. Dude makes no sense. 😂
The common lore is that Jedi *are* practitioners of a given form. They may have the fundamentals of a few others, and in rare cases be masters in multiple, but it was not remotely uncommon for a Jedi to be unschooled in multiple forms (even setting aside the obvious Juyo). The entire existence of Niman is a pretty straightforward proof of that.
@@Kestral287 Yeah, no. The vast majority hybridize between two or more forms, with very few exceptions. Even the ones typically named as representatives of one actually still include elements of others. Kenobi is typically referred to as the foremost representative of Soresu, but he practiced Ataru before that and switched off between the two, plus elements of others.
Niman is a form specifically made for Jedi who don't focus much on combat in general, and it focuses on incorporating Force powers into combat to compensate for lack of practice with lightsabers. Its existence in no way suggests Jedi in general exclusively or near-exclusively use a single form.
100% yes, I absolutely HATE this lore, because you just know that the people who came up with it were just comic book writers from back in the day, and everyone who has made mainline Star Wars works since then, ie tv shows and movies, has consistently ignored it, because it's not only bad, it's boring.
There's some meta commentary to be had about how these fans are exactly like the Jedi because they're increasingly dogmatic and resist anykind of change.
You do know that the Jedi's entire philosophy is focused about self-reflection and self-improvement right?
Its ironic how you talk about hating the lore of the Lightsaber forms and how it was made up with comic book writers. Only to go ahead and talk about the 'dogmatic and stagnant' Jedi like that so called 'lore' is any better.
If they didn't ignore it, it wouldn't be boring
90% of lightsaber fights in the last decade have been mind-numbing screen filler with no thought put into it
@@dolphinsniper Way to prove OP's point
@@Lazypackmule you too
@@LaonRavenheart Simmer down and learn to read, sped
I really like your proper martial artist mindset being brought to the very fantasy star wars fighting.
I've been playing Jedi survivor recently and my favorite "stance" you choose so far has been the saber/blaster combo, where almost all your attacks are quick thrusts and parries with the saber while mixing in shots with the offhand gun.
That and the double-blade saberstaff, which is just really useful in game to strike large targets repeatedly.
I think it could be an interesting video for you to go through Cal's fighting techniques in Survivor.
One thing about the laser part of the lightsaber being weightless that doesn't make sense is that they can physically intercept each other. That is only possible if the laser part has mass, otherwise it would be like fighting with 2 flamethrower, the flame would just pass through each other. The laser bolt from the guns too should have mass, otherwise it cannot be deflected.
Yes, but then again, there is no recoil in blasters, so that's kinda weird.
@@shyper17I've definitely seen recoil when Han shoots his blast pistol
Regarding the collision thing, the plasma and 99.9999% of the heat energy is contained by a magnetic field of sorts which cannot cross over one another. So its technically the containment fields colliding not the cutting burning part of the blade
ok fair point, but now i just want to see a flamethrower duel...
@@OzyPepperdo you fight fire with fire? or with FIRAGA? 😁
I've studied the Lightsaber Forms for over 20 years.
And you're right.
Sure, I could point out some stuff you got wrong here, (and I'll make some good faith corrections later) but that mostly just proves your point, the lore is confusing and contradictory and predominantly written by people who never held a sword in their life.
I grew up on the 7 Forms, I studied choreography frame by frame, descriptions from books, testing techniques in sparring with "synthetic" (toy) lightsabers, in short I grew up studying the 7 Forms in much the same way as HEMA is studied.
But as with HEMA, there's a lot of interpretation involved, if you take every single source as absolute truth you're going to end up with a contradictory mess.
The biggest difference here is of course that these weapons don't exist in our world, and we don't have the Force, which severely limits our ability to test, and more importantly means we have no true "sources" of their use written by people who really used them.
It would be bad enough if all our HEMA sources were written by people who only ever watched, read, or heard about swordsmanship, but there's also the added complication that the weapon doesn't exist for us to test with.
Given this, interpretation is absolutely inevitable, there will never be a definitive understanding of lightsaber lore. I say this as someone confident she knows every scrap of it, and have studied it for the vast majority of my life.
Now, with that understanding, we can look at the "primary sources" and try to find the best (most consistent but still fun) interpretation. I agree with you that the Forms are foolish as techniques or restrictions to what you can do in combat, it makes far more sense to think of them as mindsets or philosophies, and indeed this is often how they're written since most authors can understand this better than real swordsmanship.
I've got my own ideas for what the 7 Forms really are, but I'll spare you that essay until I make it a proper video.
We do however see Dooku using a far more Rapier-like form in The Clone Wars, specifically against the 3 Nightsisters, against both Obi-Wan & Anakin, and against both Asajj Ventress & Savage Oppress.
You show footage of Dooku in AotC, then show footage of other characters in TCW to demonstrate that the choreography doesn't change much, but if you look at footage of Dooku in the duels I mentioned (or pretty much any of his duels other than the one in the TCW movie which is a weird outlier) you'll see a huge difference in how Dooku fights between mediums.
As for why Dooku didn't use this kind of "true" Makashi in the films (especially in 1v1 duels which is supposedly the Form's strength), we can only speculate. The old canon said he was mocking the forms of Obi-Wan and Anakin, but Needed to emulate Ataru to keep up with Yoda. That doesn't make sense and is immediately contradicted by Dooku's next fight against Yoda in the Dark Rendezvous novel where his choreography is described closer to true Makashi.
But perhaps you can think of a better, more consistent reason. As with almost all choreography (which I teach), story and character and spectacle are the goal, with realism and consistency being lesser considerations, as they should be.
Again, we have many contradictory sources and this leaves much up to interpretation, but we can still make corrections on what takes place in a given source. So, here's mine.
•Binds *absolutely* happen in the Original Trilogy, ESB was the film that established the concept to begin with. Luke and Vader's blades bind (right after Luke blasts Vader with steam) and Luke takes visual effort to detach them. And there's even a few binds before this in the same duel.
From this film on (in order of release) it's rare to see a duel where the blades slide against each other unless it's a *very* brief contact.
Almost every duel in the Prequel Trilogy includes a bind so I'm genuinely wondering what you mean by Bind, but for the purpose of this comment I'll assume you mean where the blades are in contact for more than a brief instant, and seem to be unable to slide as steel swords do (unless it's to break that contact which is still rare).
The Force Awakens includes a bind so secure that Kylo uses it to pull Rey toward him and weaken her structure, before pivoting (not sliding) his blade around hers to a more advantageous bind. When Rey connects to the Force (specifically the Dark Side but that's not relevant here) and is able to break the bind, it takes considerable, visual effort.
•Han Solo does seem to wield the lightsaber without much difficulty on Hoth, but it could be far more difficult trying to use it in combat than just cutting open a dead Tauntaun.
•Grievous has superhuman mechanical strength to compensate for his lack of Force connection to the Kyber crystal, which is what makes lightsabers feel lighter to Force users.
•Anakin and Obi-Wan are able to use random other Jedi's lightsabers on Geonosis because... hmm yeah I've got nothing, that's a great point.
Anyways, I think that's everything I care to mention, overall I loved this video and I really hope you keep it available (though obviously your mental health comes first). Everything I didn't disagree with here was either perfectly spot-on and validating as a fellow fencer and SW fan with a ton of her own complaints about lightsaber lore, or an error too slight and/or subjective for even me to bother you over.
By and large, I was basically shouting "Yes!", "Amen!" at the screen like a drunk mom at a Pentecostal church. It's awesome to see such a thoughtful and experienced fencer tackle this divisive issue in a thorough but succinct way.
Looking forward to more videos from you, SW or not, and hoping this video is received well by your audience.
Though regardless I hope you're proud of it, and I hope whatever the reception might be doesn't dissuade you from more awesome content like this💜
I know that there are more depictions in the clone Wars cartoon that I wasn't going to hunt down, and I'm sure they've done some more nuanced stuff. But it's telling that these things had to be added into a cartoon and haven't been implemented in the mainline series
I still think it's fun to think about all of these things, and I'm not saying people shouldn't enjoy the Star Wars lightsaber forms. These are just my own personal thoughts on it from my years of swordsmanship and choreography.
I can't point by point your comment, it's long and comprehensive and unfortunately I do not have the brain space to address every single thing. You make valid points.
One thing I want to touch on is the bind. So in steel swordsmanship we put our blades together and they don't slide unless we try to. And that looks a lot like what happens in most of the films. To me it doesn't indicate that the swords are being pulled together and can't move, it indicates that that's what the combatants want the swords to do. In fact if you watch a lot of my videos you'll notice we do this a lot with steel swords, and I do it a lot in fencing as well.
I just think that the blades being attracted to each other is another thing that restricts choreography, but again that's just my opinion.
I'm glad you like the video! And based on the mostly positive response I've gotten so far it looks like I'll be doing some more Star Wars content
Heya! Great comment, and I just gotta say that I overall agree with you and the main point of this video that Lightsabers are just very confusing, fun! But damn are they confusing-
I just wanted to give my own thoughts on the "Able to pick up any lightsaber"
So my perspective was always that a Jedis connection to their crystal was less specifically about that crystal and more so the training to meditate and connect with the force though a crystal.
So for an analogy I'll use programming.
When you're learning a language to code, you're doing it on a computer, but just because you specifically learned the skill of coding the language on that computer doesn't mean you can only do it on said computer.
As long as its the same language you've been learning, any computer you should be able to code on just as well.
Thats how I view the lightsaber. You learn to connect with a crystal, but not connect as in forming some sort of deep personal bond too it, but more so just connect as simply as a USB-Stick does into a jack port.
Sometimes when watching we sorta have to rationalize what we see for it to make sense regardless of original interpretation, and a lot of starwars for me has become that over the years of being a fan.
@@SellswordArtsThanks for your reply!💜
We seem to have different definitions of what the "Mainline" series is. You seem to define it as the live-action films I think? Or maybe just the original 6 films?
Whereas to me the films, The Clone Wars, Rebels, and the various Disney+ series (aside from Visions) are all the same tier of canon. An extension of George's work, mostly led by his apprentice Dave Filoni.
The other New Canon things like books, comics, and games are the second tier of canon, and then the old Expanded Universe (which to be clear, I love dearly, hence my username) is below that. With a bunch of distinct tiers for itself, as it had when it was canon.
Your thoughts on the bind are very interesting, it never really occurred to me that the characters didn't Want to slide their blades since it's such a key aspect of fencing (especially without decent hand protection). I assumed they'd do that if they could, but for some reason (whether magnetism in the old EU or a more mystical reason in New Canon) the blades are hard to pry apart.
(It's my conjecture based on what we see that the longer the blades have been in contact for, the harder it is to separate them.)
Indeed, the most obvious example of a blade sliding down another, and the only one which results in a lost limb iirc, is Obi-Wan vs Grievous. Which seems to indicate to me that Force sensitivity is a big factor in how much the blades can slide. Similarly, Kylo is able to pivot his blade around Rey's, but she seems unable to move hers until she connects with the Force.
But I admit this reading is likely influenced by stuff like the Saberlock mechanic in the SW video games, and has yet to be explicitly stated (though it's strongly implied in Rebels).
Personally I think the idea of the blades locking together makes the weapon more unique, and opens the door to more creative choreography. Restricting it yes, but in an interesting way. But that's just my opinion.
What would some reasons be for not wanting to slide your blade during a bind, particularly when neither weapon has much hand protection?
Could be an interesting topic for a video👀
I'm glad the response to this video has been mostly positive! I'm gonna go catch up on some of your recent videos I missed, thanks for taking the time to reply to me! Have a good night (or day, whenever and wherever you might be reading this) and may the Force be with you💜
@@j_d.darrenhunter5803Hmm that's a fair theory, I don't think it's what Dave was going for but it seems like a cool interpretation for how it works.
Personally I prefer lightsabers to be more mystical and spiritual, but that doesn't mean everyone needs to have that preference!
@@JainaSoloB312 I consider the mainline series to be the original trilogy and the prequel trilogy. And I guess you could call the sequels the mainline series, but I don't like them 🤣 so I usually just pretend like they don't exist.
I love the extended universe, but it usually contradicts both itself and the films, so I try not to take any hard and fast rules about lightsaber combat from it when I'm making my choreography.
The reason you wouldn't want to slide down the blade is because it changes the relationship of strength and weakness on the blade.
When two characters have the middle of their blade touching, they are equally as strong, but if you slide your blade down to hit the hands, you give your opponent your week, and now it's on their strong. It's easy for them to take advantage of that and control the fight.
That's why we don't slide down the blade in longsword combat or in any other combat. You're giving your opponent the weakest part of your sword on the strongest part of theirs.
And in my opinion, the reason we don't slide down the blade and hit the hands and light super combat is because it wouldn't look cool, and it would be bad choreography. And that's reason enough for me not to do it.
But I'll actually make a video on this, cuz it's a good concept to elaborate on! Thanks for the inspiration
Ever since they brought out the wrist shields for mandalorians, I've always wanted to see a sword and buckler style of lightsaber combat. Or perhaps the large energy shields like the Gungans paired with a short spear light saber similar to Zulu Assegai.
Or the addition of more pole weapons. Like the Light Pike, or like Kylo's saber multiple blades acting as guards or prongs. A Light Partisan or Spetum.
Rapier and dagger fencing styles with long and short bladed lightsabers. Saber and blaster.
There are countless possibilities to the variety of saber styles we could see, each with their own advantages and drawbacks that could be overcome by the force or the unique properties of a lightsaber.
Luke does use a short lightsaber as sort of a mein gauche to deal with a light whip
Ashoka, Cal kestis and Legends Luke use long blade/short blade style
Trouble there is that you'd have to invent more lore to quiet the more pedantic nerds. A S&B style means you'd occasionally lead with mostly a limb. The buckler could likely tank a hit, but how does the entire rest of your body deal with a riposte strike?
Spear combat is awesome (especially vs sword...especially if you're the spear), but now we need more lightsaber resistant materials for the shaft.
@@JohnnyV83 the point of a buckler is to deflect a strike rather than full on block it. Which is why most techniques involve angling the buckler, so the blade deflects off it, instead of transfering all of the kinetic energy into your hand only some of it is transferred.
There are already lightsaber resistant materials in star wars, Beskar, Cortosis weave, and Phrik alloy. Though they are expensive.
@CountKibblesNBits angling as a block close to the body? Or angling while extending the buckler-limb out to meet the strike? It's hypothetical responses to the later that concerns me. Not really a criticism, more a concern of how practical v flawed a LS-proof buckler would be.
You're Wrong!! 😅
Even for space wizards reverse grip NOT OK!!
Great Video man 👍
Ironically, even one character known for the reverse grip, Starkiller, actually mostly attacks with an orthodox grip. He only holds it backwards when running around (keeping the weapon behind him), blocking, and his first and last attacks (as a transition between grips).
The way I interpreted the way the saber works is that if a normal guy picks it up it’s slightly unwieldy and a bit heavy. However if you are force sensitive or connected with the crystal it feels better in the hand and is lighter.
Tbh even though I found lightsaber forms interesting I also found it very confusing. Here is the biggest confusion I had: Makashi users generally have problems with deflecting lasers... But if that's the case you should train to deflect those lasers and not study a completely new lightsaber form.
Also, I like the idea at the end that lightsaber forms should be divided into weapon types. I immediately imagined various weapons from Shadow Fight 2. Like chains and spears would be a lot of fun to watch ngl.
Dooku did actually have a different type of lightsaber, being the curved hilt types, so the angle of the blade coming out of your hand would be a bit less intuitive when it came to blocking blaster fire. But if just shooting a Makashi user was easy they wouldn't have lasted very long either.
An anime I watched (and it's novel source material) handled the whole "forms" thing pretty well. There was a defensive focused one, an offensive focus, and a "whatever works" focus. The best part? They were much less analog than they sound. The offensive style was about speed and precision to take your enemy out as quick as possible, but also used attacks defensively much like the German masters "master cuts" I think that's how they describe it right? The defensive style was defensive, but by focusing on countering the attack more like a riposte as opposed to flat block or parry. Whatever works was all about underhanded practicality. It taught you how to use your weapon, and make everything around you a weapon too. Such as throwing dirt in your opponents face, leg sweeps, punching, grappling.
I was quite impressed.
Mushoku?
I always interpreted it as "these are your principles, learn them all, and practice with them". Basically the forms are just segmented portions of different facets of dueling to teach the apprentices and younglings lightsaber combat There's obviously going to be one they do really well at, but they still know the others and incorporate them all into their dueling combat. That's what they're talking about when they say Dooku is form 2, Obi Wan is form 4, Anakin is form 5 etc. There's so many sources out their because so many people have written for Star Wars with different ideas, and at this point it's basically time to headcanon what makes the most sense to you based on the vast differing information laid out.
Grievous actually uses a long forgotten and exclusively nonforce sensitive lightsaber technique known only to laymen as "sii-ling faen" and you'd know this if you were a real fan.
😂😂😂
I would pin this comment If my own pin comment wasn't so important
This is an amazing video and I completely agree on having forms based on weapons. It would be so cool and I would love to see that. And yeah. Star Wars is just for fun. George himself said that all the fluff didn’t matter and what’s important is enjoying it however you enjoy it and understanding the themes. I hope this video stays up as I think it is a great conversation starter :) downloaded just in case people come in and be hateful to the point where it needs to be taken down. Love your HEMA videos and would love to see more lightsaber content :)
Honestly, that might have been the best thing that George has ever said.
Media is made to be enjoyed. Especially something like Star Wars. People should be able to play with it and do what they want, and stop getting mad at each other when there's a disagreement
IIRC somewhere it was stated that Obi Wans form was actually seen as stupid because like you stated you basically just prolong the inevitable. of course the counter to that is also stated it's that he is "THE master" and can basically defend for as long as he needs until he spots "the perfect" opening. Which while unrealistic just sounds really cool.
That’s because Soresu isn’t meant for dueling. It’s meant for blaster fire.
It's not stated as being dumb. It's stated that it requires a certain passive mentality that even most Jedi struggle with. It's easier said than done to truly embody "the best offense is a good defense" ideology. In a fight, there is an insticive fear and aggression, and only by fully letting go of that can you maintain a zen like state of mind, allowing for the absolute defense Soresu was made to be. Soresu was minimalism at its finest. Minimal movements, minimal offense. You let the opponent do all the work.
That said, it is pretty dumb.
So people tend to forget that Obi Wan on paper was a terrible Jedi. Like he could have easily been put in the same category of those who do the everyday sort of jobs because the Jedi wants to keep an eye on all force sensitives no matter how strong (I wish we would get a show about those guys, those younglings who has just enough to picked up on but had to no talent so they were just librarians or janitors.)
What made Obi Wan different was his determination. This dude was built different. Proof that hard work and dedication paid off. Which when you think about Anakin was all about being born with talent and special where Obi Wan truly shows that anyone can use the force.
But since Obi Wan sucked he had to pick a form that would keep him alive but also suited his mindset of determination and focus. He was a Master of Form 3 it was said that nothing got through his defense. He was the immoveable object perfect to go against Anakin's mastery of form 5, which is basically SSJ 3. High Power, low stamina
@@maskmaker6374 By the time of tpm he is a master of Ataru. The reason he switched forms is because when Qui-Gon died he saw the lack of defense it had.
I always interpreted the resonating with a kyber crystal thing as something that initially makes the crystal usable in a lightsaber while at the same time testing apprentices connection to the force, rather than restricting it to a single Jedi, but I’m sure there’s a bunch of written or stated on screen lore that contradicts me. Honestly I really like this whole video, it’s always so refreshing to hear someone who remembers that this is supposed to be fun while also making good points about where things can be improved without trying to be some arbiter on everyone’s enjoyment. As a Star Wars fan, I always try to avoid talking to other Star Wars fans lol
That's basically what we see. Without "bonding" to a Jedi, or some other methods known only to the sith, kyber crystals are invisible. After they've bonded they can be used by anyone, but it takes special training to really get good with them.
I love this, and have often thought much the same as a fan and lightsaber enthusiast. I've always found the forms and their lore intriguing, but as I got older and started seriously looking into swordsmanship, I sort of landed on the same conclusion. What you said from 14:50 - 16:55 is a much better way of looking at it I feel, and actually how it kinda works in the game Jedi: Survivor - distilling and simplifying the lightsaber combat to address and accomodate differences in specific weapon types/styles, as they clearly vary in application more authentically and realistically to warrant them as distinct forms of practice, as opposed to dividing mere aspects of sword fighting into "forms".
Charles: My spicy takes are that proper form will protect you from hand snipes and that Fiore is a valid system in tournaments.
David: Hold my beer I'm gonna go thermonuclear with these takes.
🤣🤣🤣🤣
This was good fun, I liked it. Having played way too much of Knights of the Old Republic and KotOR2 I'd always sort of assumed that the lightsaber combat forms were as much a mindset as actual physical stances and attacks. *This* is how you face a lightsaber-wielding opponent, *this* is how you conserve your own energy until your opponent gives you an opening, *this* is how you close up with someone shooting at you. Admittedly Form 6 sounds a lot like "I have a 20 hour class load this semester so I got minimal gym time" but they can't all be winners I guess.
I always understood the forms like different real life (hand to hand) martial arts. You can learn and master them one after the other and then combine them how you see fit.
1994? YOU are "old"?
Oh gawd I feel like one of the mythical ancients now >.
I'm a SW fan. I love the the combat forms, even made RPG Systems out of them and... you know what? I loved your content too, this video, mate! Even if the Soresu is my favorite lightsaber form and you took an absolute piss out of it and, yeah, it all makes sense. The Form III would be a lot better if it filled the place of the "counter puncher" like boxing, IMHO.
Nice analysis. Thanks and all the best! =]
It makes me feel better about interacting with the Star Wars fan than when I have interactions like this. Thanks for being awesome!
Perhaps soresu relies more heavily on a force users ability of precognition to be “defensive” so instead of being “reactive” it’s “preactive”! This would mean the practitioners of the form are training to enhance this force ability equally as much as their defensive blade skills.
P.s. as a side note the pacifist nature of the Jedi order could also be taken into consideration where as practitioners of soresu are less interested in finishing the fight by severely maiming, dismembering, or out right killing an opponent with their blade, but using their off hand to use the force to disarm, disable, or minimally maim their opponent instead!
@@TheOnilink1230, yeah, but if the Jedi were truuuly pacifist they would use only the Force as a means to hold or pin an assailant, would it not? As a purely defensive form, Soresu lacks initiative and only postpone the inevitable. And, hey, I'm all for an impenetrable defense, but you have to at least have some form of counter attack and Form III is just a wall of defense. Be it lightsabers or blaster fire.
Form Weapon ideas!
Form I: Regular lightsaber
Form II: Rapier/arming sword
Form III: Shield (to deflect blasters)/ Spear (keeps distance)
Form IV: Shortsword? (Yoda's weapon)
Form V: Dagger/ Dual wielding (REVERSE GRIP FOREVER-AaAuGh)
Form VI: Double bladed lightsaber
Form VII: Greatsword (Aggressive)
Disclaimer: I have never watched Star Wars before
I'd better hate on this channel for saying something critical about star wars because that's how healthy people handle criticism.
I appreciate you taking the time to really explain this in great depth, especially from a place of know how with your knowledge & actual experiences of the sword. Keep spreading the positive message👌🏻
I agree with most of it and yes the forms are overcomplicated, but I think it's more fun to add all of these different specializations of lightsaber combat.
Also, it's fun to think about how someone can focus on 1 thing their whole l8fe and because the absolute best at it like Count Dooku is in lore
i think the under water savers make sense for sure, but ya the lore is a little weird
I love this comprehensive breakdown, especially your analysis of the different styles. It makes a lot of sense, and I'm glad that someone who is both a fan and a swordsman can give their insight into this. I know it would most likely never happen, but i would absolutely love for you to manage the fight choreography of a Star Wars film. That would be epic. Thanks for your videos, i appreciate what you do, and as always i look forward to more. Much love and appreciation.
Amazing Video! I really want to see more stuff like this if you are willing to do it.
Thank you so much for this! I personally have had my gripes with the lore of Lightsabers for a while and as someone who enjoys lightsaber fencing/dueling (most of the time very coreographed but sometimes it’s not for learning purposes), I feel like in the lore they needlessly handicap themselves.
My interpretation is and has always been that lightsaber forms are more like the schools of techniques or building blocks that someone uses in actual combat. So a “Form 3 Master” is someone who just uses a lot more moves that rely on an initial defensive posture to then parry and punish the opponent. Perfect for someone who expects to not be the one who initiates combat but wants to end it as quickly as possible.
In contrast once on the offensive they might sting together a form 1, 4, and 6 technique like a fighting game combo or like actual swordsmanship where you use the building blocks of various techniques to then put together for a unique combat experience.
I did some extra homework for ya.
@2:00 Mark Hamill has stated, Lucas originally wanted the idea of the lightsabers to be like Excalibur(he was not correct on the weight). Lucas originally intended lightsabers to extremely heavy when activated, so much so that only someone strong in the Force could wield one. That’s why the duel between Obi-Wan and Vader in Episode 4 is so slow. More often than not, you'd see characters in the original trilogy needing to use two hands to hold it. This was even referenced in The Clone Wars show with Padme commenting on the weight of Anakin's saber at the end of season 1. As we got into the prequels, Lucas must have realized that using two hands all the time would limit the scope of the fights. So Nick Gillard and his crew started to devise faster fights and were more comfortable with one handed movements being incorporated.
@5:50 The lightsaber blade is made up of plasma, surrounded by a magnetic field(ie. a forcefield) to contain and condense the plasma, causing the plasma to become hotter and . Powered by a diatium power cell and Kyber crystals. Lightsabers also stop when they meet another lightsaber because of the two opposing forcefields repelling each other.
@6:13 A Jedi finding their Kyber crystal is a spiritual/special moment, but doesn’t effect one’s ability to wield a lightsaber. Anyone can use a lightsaber, but only a Force user can build them because you must use the Force to carefully line up the energy cell with the crystal. This crystal is what younglings use to attune to the Force, and once bonded the lightsaber, it will show the color of your "soul". As for Sith sabers, a Sith is unable to establish a bond with a crystal due to the dark emotions that cloud their concentration and prevent it. Instead, a Sith imposes their angry will onto the crystal, "bleeding" it. Turning it into a distinctive red colored blade.
@7:25 Yeah, they definitely need to do more with forms and be more accurate in the way they're portrayed, lol. (but for the "strong attacks", the Force is also used to push your blade through the attack harder).
Speaking for myself, as a Star Wars fan, you're the only kind of Star Wars fan that I like
I don't know why the lore explanation wasn't just to have an extendable "blade" shaft come out of the center of the grip that produces the popsicle blade, kind of like the plastic toy lightsabers.
The show scifi science had an episode on how to make one theoretically.
this is exactly the kind of fun exploration that every fandom needs. the freedom to explore, critique, laugh at, laugh with. it's all one big discussion, folks, so why not really get into it? I fucking love star wars, even when it's bad because it helps refine my taste. the lore behind the lightsabers is doofy. some would argue that it's intentionally that way (these are tall tales told around a camp fire, he had a blue saber around one fire but maybe around another it was more green) but the fact of the matter is that it IS doofy, and being able to talk about it is what the internet is for. keep it up man.
I never would have considered any of this but I will enjoy hearing all about it
I really appreciate your criticism and how you say “but it’s star wars and star wars is meant to be fun”. Stoked to see you break more stuff down
I completely agree. It often feels like fans and writers sometimes don't actually think what might actually happen with lightsabers. Especially that RPG thinking. Being a strong person doesn't mean a slow person. They are usually one in the same.
Really enjoyed this video. Please continue exploring this! A system that takes into acount different weapons for different styles would be awesome to see realized!
Also, what about lightsabers paired with a blaster?
This video is amazing. It’s given me a whole new perspective on these forms. And yeah, I hadn’t really thought about it before, but the forms are kinda nonsensical from a martial arts and sword fighting perspective.
If you’re ever willing to return to this topic again, I would love to see what your ideas for reworking the forms into different variants of the lightsaber are. It’s certainly inspired me for some writing projects.
I think the idea of mindsets being the forms would be way better. That’s good world building.
Really like your revision of forms as different weapons instead of hyper-specific styles! Much more logical take
I came at this with an open mind, and left better for it afterwards. I enjoyed your take on it, it was very interesting.
I'm just gonna immediately download this, in case it gets immediately carpet-bombed by SW fanbois. I'm here, doing my part.
The way how I’ve understood a lightsaber, is that it’s an air resisted blade which can be customized depending what the wielder wants. Lightsaber to me means that it’s a sword that emits light and has mass behind it because a weightless blade, as you stated, would look stupid in duels. Just my take on it
Honestly, most Star Wars lore is needlessly overcomplicated
"You can't win by defending."
Obi Wan:
I am kidding, great video. Finally I see someone talk about how all the forms look the same in the movies.
I am extremely impressed that you delivered a tight six minutes of facts straight off the dome in one cut!
answering 12:30 if I recall correctly most of the jedi / sith practiced specific forms not mixed all of them, that is according to lore, also there are forms which are purely dedicated to drive on emotions, for example Form IV - Ataru, Form V - Shien, Form VII Juyo (notable user according to lore: Darth Maul) / Vapaad (notable user according to Lore: Mace Windu)
Most of the time jedi who used "darkside aligned" forms were frowned upon by others. so yes even it gets more complicated here as forms were divided between Sith and Jedi like
I always looked at the “Forms” more like kata. It’s a set of moves to be done alone in sequence for solo training, working on technique. In several of the martial arts I’ve studied, they called the katas “Forms”.
Agreed! I think "Forms" as katas is another great option, if we don't want to rework them as weapon specific. Form III becomes about types of defensive stances, and how to respond to an opponent's attack, instead of a passive wait to be hit.
That doesn't really make sense, though, because you don't fight with a particular kata, while people are described as fighting with a lightsaber form.
Great video ! Just here to add some informations that explain how the lightsaber forms were created in the lore because every forms can created to counter a weakness from the previous form. Let me explain :
Shii-Cho was created before lightsabers and was designed to fight group of ennemies with wide sweeps and uses the basics of swordsmanship.
Makashi was developped when lightsabers combat became common and as Shii-Cho was designed to fight wild against multiples opponents (as they let the Flow of the Force guide them into battle) it wasn't suit for duel fencing so Makashi was designed specifially for it. Based on careful straightforwards lines footwork, economy of motions and precision to go create openings into opponent's defenses.
Soresu was developped later when lightsabers duels weren't as common as before and blasters became the most common weapon in the galaxy. So Jedi had to adapt and they created a defensive forms designe for blaster deflections. It turned to be useful in lightsaber duel only because Jedi had to adapt again but no Jedi only used that form and only to win a fight. They always use others forms, like Shii-Cho for example to go on the offensive but they just find out that the tight bladework of Soresu (and with the superhumans reflexes and senses of a Jedi) it was useful to counter any attacks in order to keep stamina and observe the opponent's flaws before going for an attack.
Ataru was developped by those who thought Soresu wasn't that effective and actually just delay the inevitable instead of gaining on its opponent. Now, Ataru is the most fancy and fantasist one because it relay almost exclusively on Force-enhanced abilities. But I want to make it clear on this : only Yoda use it the way he uses it, because he is small and old he needs to surpass his physical limitations to enhanced his speed, strenght and agility, it makes sense that he spin around because of his small height so that it makes it difficult to touch him or even parry him because he moves at lightning fast-paced with high mobility, it is said that fighting Yoda is like fighting several opponents at the time. Now, the real basics of Ataru is not purely on agility and spinning or whatever, it's more about going on the offensive only and focus on speed rather than precision or strength, to overwhelm someone under multiples chained attacks.
Shien/Djem So was created alongside Ataru. Shien variation was like Soresu but instead of just deflecting, it actually reflect the blasters bolts back to the shooters. Because Shien was meant to be a defensive form that still gives you the opportunity to go on the offensive and be active instead of passive. Djem So variation was another duellist form, focus on raw power and counter attacks. Actually it's almost two forms into one. It's not like you said "i fight this guy then this guy at distance" it's more that people pick their either Shien or Djem So as a main form and then combine it with some others to adapt at every situation. Like Shien or Ataru, it was made by Soresu former users that thought that defense only can't help you win a fight.
My point is : even if the forms are very specific, actually there is no Jedi or Sith that used ONLY ONE form, they know the basics of every form and adapt themselves at the situation, they just have a favorite form that they use more than others but that's it.
At the end, everyone is using the Form VI, Niman, in a certain way because Niman about balance between all previous forms AND Force powers directly (not just for enhancing oneself but to actually Force Push, Pull etc etc). Most of them are using a look-like Niman in the sense they find their own balance, if they put their own identity own strength into their fighting style.
Again great video, love your work and what you said in your conclusion is very interesting, it will gives identity to lightsaber style
Admittedly I'm sort of a fan of the various forms. I think I just enjoy RPGification of it with having distinct strengths weaknesses. But i largely agree with a lot said in this stellar video.
I wanted to also stan Form VI Niman a little though. Since i think it fills a similar role to Ataru as a "discipline/form". Whereas Ataru evolves lightsaber combat through directing the power of The Force inwards to push the body in supernatural ways. Niman often utilizes a more outward projection of The Force with things like telekinesis.
Of course though that doesn't mean that just because as Jedi or Sith did a 20 foot high backflip or shoved someone with The Force that doesn't mean they're an Ataru or Niman specialist.
I think it is best to view all the Forms more like mindsets and archetypes than specific techniques and maneuvers. Since there so much overlap between characters in the setting.
"I've been a star wars fan since 1994... Yes I'm old"
_cries in seeing Star Wars in 1977 in theatre_
15:05 Funny you say that, because this is, in a way, what the game "Star Wars Jedi: Survivor" did.
Of course, they are not called "forms", since that name is already taken, but "stances". But in any case, they are for different types of weapons. You have the traditional single blade lightsaber and the double bladed lightsaber, and then you have the double lightsaber, the crossguard lightsaber, which is used like a claymore, and lightsaber plus blaster. And all of them look clearly distinct from one another.
Your commentary on the lightsaber forms reminded me of the cliff fight in Princess Bride where the comment on what sword master form / techniques they’re using.
I agree with you for the most part, ESPECIALLY about the new crystal binding nonsense.
About Soresu though, it is stated tha Soresu was developed and is used specifically to counter blaster fire. If it was used for dueling, then that duelist should be dead like immediately. In KOTOR 2, Soresu gives you a bonus to blaster deflect stats.
But in the lore online it says that form five was the one that was designed to counter blaster fire...
See, there's so many inconsistencies!
Realistically speaking you can't counter multiple blaster bolts unless the enemy gives you enough time to react between shots.
"Well Jedi can move at the speed of sound thanks to the force"
if you're fast enough to counter laser fire, you're fast enough to simply get out of the way or reach the enemy and easily dispatch them instead of doing awkward stuff like redirecting blaster bolts (which doesn't always work in lore or in the shows).
"Well maybe they're out of reach"
Well maybe you should use a blaster as a secondary weapon and exploit the advantage a mind and body that can move to the speed of sound gives you to point and shoot the enemy before they can even react. Better yet, you can use the force consistently and not forget that it exist each five minutes.
All this comes from a former Star Wars fan who's dad forced him to read even the novels, so trust me, i know there's no way of defending how these things work.
@@SellswordArts Oh there are definitely inconsistencies. It just what happens when you have a ton of 3rd party writers who all have ideas come into the picture.
The style I love are Vaapad. For all the reasons you've stated.
@@addictedtochocolate920 Jedi didn't always want to kill though. Yes, I agree it's stupid to not carry a blaster as a sidearm just in case, but I have absolutely no problem with Deflecting blaster fire.
In lore, sometimes even the simple activation of a saber was enough to make the aggressor back down.
@@SellswordArtswhere are you getting that info lol
The double lightsabers alway get a chuckle out of me when they block one strike with both of theirs at the same time or make 2 strikes at once at the same angle.
my head canon has always been that the various saber forms were analogous to kata of a single style. each one featuring a different aspect of combat.
A word about Form V--in the old expanded lore it was two sub forms making up one form: Shien and Djem So respectively. Shien was focused on lightsaber vs blaster. You weren't just deflecting blaster bolts, you were deliberately reflecting them, aiming at vital targets. Djem So was that same principle expanded into lightsaber vs lightsaber combat. It was more than just smash them with a big sword thinking, basically, you were trying to force your opponent lightsaber back into their body, but the form was also focused on corralling your opponent. Limiting their movements, cutting off angles of attack, forcing them into a corner... which is still just swordsmanship 101.
I agree, writers are not fighters, and it causes problems
Honestly, as a mega star wars lore nerd, I dislike the idea of every character only being restricted to *one form*. I think it's more interesting for characters to have multiple that they, intentionally or not, frequently switch between. For example, a character specializing in defensive combat (soresu), only to switch to Ataru (practically the polar opposite) the moment said character's opponent gets tired out enough to start making notable mistakes.
Good video, you make interesting points I have not considered before.
Completely agree especially with the last parts, and honestly I think your changes sound way cooler than what we currently have, I remember reading the section of the Jedi path book about lightsaber forms and finding it very confusing and as you said over complicated, but your versions are easy to understand yet interesting and cool
Dude that US prophecy is such a cool underrated hilt!
Perhaps the real reason Palpatine learned all lightsaber forms is because he too realized how stupid the systems were and knew that that's not how sword fighting works.
I want to start by saying, you're completely correct. Lightsaber lore is a mess and some of it is really, really stupid. I am a Star Wars fan, and I support this message. :))
I'm also going to try to answer some of these points. I've not seen this video as a whole yet, but I've seen about 3 of the shorts and it makes me want to chime in on each point in order. Please don't hate me too much.
1.) Your point about the weight is 100% on point, but King Arthur, assuming he was ever based on a real person in the first place, would never have been using an arming sword or a carolingian sword. They're from centuries later than the historical events around which his legend revolves. The swords available to someone living at the time in questions (late 5th century to mid 6th century) would have been the gladius (mainz and fulham would have been most likely), spatha, ring spatha, celtic leaf blade sword, and merovingian sword.
2.) The magnetic effect I think you're referring to when you're referencing the blade being weightless. I think you might be referring to the EM field that's generated to contain the plasma blade. Now, plasma does have mass, therefore it also does have weight. It's not a lot of weight, but it does have mass and weight. I don't know the exact mass because I don't know the exact density of the plasma in this fictional weapon, but I'm sure someone does and they may be able to tell us what that plasma should weigh. Maybe it's as much as a blade.
3.) I've read a lot of the books, but I don't remember any reference to the lightsaber blades sticking together like that. I've got a pretty bad memory and I could easily have forgotten a detail like that. Sounds silly because I can't think of a single instance where that's happened in a film, game, book, or episode of a show.
4.) My understanding of the lightsaber forms is that they're situational. For example, Makashi is a dueling style inspired by, and often styled on, rapier and saber fencing, and used for lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat. Using this explanation of the lightsaber forms, this isn't really any different from the various forms, stances, and techniques we have in real swordsmanship. This is how I imagine the different forms based on the descriptions I've read in books, comics, and video games.
- Shii-Cho: Kendo, specifically sport Kendo with the stances very in line and on target.
- Makashi: Rapier and Saber fencing.
- Soresu: Defend until you can a) get close, b) get the advantage, or c) get away. Designed to counter blaster weapons, not meant to be specifically defensive in close range.
- Ataru: Capoeira with a lightsaber.
- Djem So: Soresu and Ataru had a lightsaber baby. German Longsword style.
- Shien: Soresu cheated on Ataru with Makashi and had a lightsaber baby. Italian Longsword Style. I know the differences are subtle, but they exist and Djem So and Shien are both Form V anyway, so they get to be similar.
- Niman: The introduction to dual wielding, lightsaber lance, or double-bladed lightsaber. This is the style you have to learn before you start practicing Jar Kai.
- Juyo: JUST SWING UNTIL THEY STOP TWITCHING!!!!! I imagine this being the greatsword style, very much like what you suggested.
- Vaapad: I'M THIS CLOSE TO THE DARK SIDE M* F*ER!!!
I really hope you don't take any of this as me arguing or telling you you're wrong. This is just me wanting to have a conversation and I hope I've said at least something in here that's interesting to someone.
P.S. I forgot about this one and was reminded by another comment. The bonding with the lightsaber is not something I've ever heard of. That may be something in the new Disney canon, but I'm really picky about that stuff. It doesn't mesh well with my SWEU story. I do want to say, that would make the training lightsabers at the Jedi Temple very problematic for the lore.
How important would lightsaber vs lightsaber be for a Jedi anyways. Before the blockade of Naboo they thought their only lightsaber wielding enemies to be gone for centuries.
Yeah. I mean there might be a few rogue dark siders coming about here and there that arent sith, but that seems more like something you'd have a smaller group learn about rather than every Jedi due to the absence of legit threats to the galaxy like the Sith.
This is a true fan, obsessed with the lore but not afraid to point its bs out
As a former Star Wars fan i can confirm it is. I can also confirm you'll get hundreds of comments writing essays worth of lore to try and prove their functionality when the point is they make absolutely no damn sense in a real life or historical scenario.
Something you may find interesting, although I’m not sure how true it is or if I’m even remembering it correctly: Liam Neeson, who played Qui-Gon Jinn in Episode 1, is a classically trained swordsman. The lightsaber fight choreographer (Nick Gillard) regularly had to stop scenes and redirect Liam because he would instinctively slip into real sword-fighting techniques that weren’t part of the choreography. Also, he and Ewan McGregor (who played Obi-Wan Kenobi in the prequels) would both make the lightsaber noises themselves, and after being told to stop multiple times, Lucas finally gave up and just removed the sounds in post-production.
Thank you. The lightsaber form descriptions have been driving me INSANE for years now.
Love your videos! Would have been nice to see you perform examples of each form, though
I love all your starwars take, but this one. This is the best one.
I like how Jedi survivor handles this, with his different “stances” based on whether his lightsaber is set up like a greatsword, dual wield, etc
yeah and the blaster stance does make sense because "saber and pistol" was actually something that existed
I thought very similar things the first time I encountered the lightsaber forms. I'm also a stage combatant and have studied a few different sword types and when you have a real world perspective on swordsmanship, none of that lore holds any water.
I really like the idea of different forms being philosophically different or focusing on different weapons.
Yes :) We could have Light Great Axes, Light Spear and shield, Light Kusarigama for spinning… Light War Hammers, Light Saber with off hand Light Sia… Light Fists, Light Whips… and so on and so forth. Giving us many interesting possible combinations for unique fight scenes :)
And lets not forget about guns shooting out lightsabers ... blasters ;)
@@randomnickifysmh so uncivilized 😒
@@randomnickify Disney actually made it and not only that its basically an anti material one shot blaster
“Maybe consider shutting up,” is a line that needs to get used on people more often
When your excellent swordsman, who actually knows what he’s talking about, perhaps shutting up is not something he should do
You can also make the mindset idea work for the traditional seven forms
Sji-Cho: basic swordmanship everyone learns
Makashi: for a calm, precise, and deliberate mindset
Soresu: as peaceful a mindset as a combat form can have, aiming to parry your opponent and transition into a disarming rather than a killing blow
Ataru: humorous mindset, trickster kinda vibe, "I'll try flipping, that's a good trick"
Shien: counterpart to Soresu but more aggressive, parry and then aiming to kill rather than disarm, mindset of quickly putting down opponent after they initiate aggression
Niman: mindset of "I can defend myself if need be but I am more of a diplomat/librarian/linguist than a duelist". Shii-cho plus
Juyo: Rage and murder
Yo, we ripping on Star Wars lore?
Let's gooo!
"Stupid and overcomplicated, the lightsaber lore is. Together by duct tape, it is held. Hmmmmm." -Master Youda, probably
Really enjoyed this video!
I'd like to mention my own personal head-canon around the Lightsaber Forms, which I think pretty much addresses the issues you raised (including mapping to what we see on-screen in the Prequels):
George Lucas was inspired by real-world ideas, including warrior monks like the Shaolin, when creating Star Wars. Just as Buddhist monks developed martial arts as part of their meditation techniques, the Jedi approach lightsaber training as a part of their spiritual training - deepening their connection to the Force. And just as many Shaolin techniques look amazing but would actually be terribly ineffective in a real fight, the Forms of lightsaber combat are similarly visually impressive but not necessarily optimised for violence.
Instead, each Form represents a certain focus on an aspect of Force connection. Thus each Jedi’s chosen Form actually tells us a lot about them spiritually, in the sense that it gives us an insight into how they approach the Force in times of danger.
So, in this context, the Form being used doesn't really dictate the specific movements a Jedi makes (e.g. this is a Form I slash, whereas that's a Form II stab, etc.), but refers to the nature of the Jedi (or Sith)'s connection to the Force during the fight. And bear in mind, each Jedi or Sith will have some aspect of every Form inherently, but the specific Form dictates the main focus of their connection to the Force.
So Form I (Shii-Cho) would focus on a "battlefield" mindset, using the Force to determine threats in a relatively close range whilst keeping a broad, sweeping-cuts approach to protect friends and designated "protectees" by driving away or killing those who get too close. Whilst Form II (Makashi), having developed as a duellist's Form, focuses on using the Force to anticipate the movements and actions of a single opponent at a time (Count Dooku / Darth Tyranus being good enough to do this against two opponents at once), choosing heavy focus on an identified opponent over a broad-strokes Force-enhanced awareness of the surrounding area.
Form III (Soresu) would make much more sense in this context, because it would be focused on the defensive mindset required to protect oneself as one closes the distance against a blaster-using opponent: pure defence is essential in that scenario since there is no attack which can actually hit the shooter at range, but the aim of Form III would be the use of the Force to gain awareness of the immediate future and in-the-moment threats to oneself and one's allies, rather than of a specific area or individual. This goes well with the description of Form III as involving an "eye of the storm" mentality: a sea of perfect, tranquil calm within a blur of activity at arm's length. It's also the "Jesus take the wheel" approach to Jedi philosophy: opening oneself up to the influence of the Force and passively letting the Force itself guide one's actions in combat.
Form IV (Ataru) is the first Form to focus primarily on using the Force to enhance one's own physicality: speeding up one's movements, driving more power behind (well-structured) attacks, and enabling the acrobatics which we see in the movies. This makes for impressive displays of ability without specifically damaging the opponent, which is important for de-escalating a situation quickly as aggressors will be left in no doubt as to the skill of their opponent and are much more likely to surrender before anyone has to get hurt (which explains why Form IV gained popularity when the Jedi focused on becoming peacekeepers and enforcers).
Form V is canonically split into two: Shien and Djem So. Shien is the art of deflecting blaster bolts back at the opponent. By the standards of how most people think of Forms, it would make no sense to distinguish this from Soresu, but by these terms it makes a lot of sense to distinguish them: a Soresu user is focused on surviving the immediate threat until distance is closed, whilst a Shien user is focused on using the Force to assist them with specific angles of deflection, targeting and destroying the opponent at range. In lightsaber combat, this would then translate to a specific focus on turning defensive motions fluidly, even unrecognisably, into aggressive ones. Djem So, meanwhile, focuses on overwhelming the opponent psychologically and physically, using the Force to enhance one's physicality as well as psychically breaking down the opponent's mental defences to force a surrender or else weaken the opponent's focus.
Niman is designed to be an "all-rounder" Form, allowing the Jedi to focus their training on Force-connection, negotiation and diplomacy without sacrificing too much effectiveness. This makes a lot more sense in my headcanon since it means the Jedi focuses more on their Force abilities than on their lightsaber skills: not just enabling a "jack of all trades, master of none" approach, but also making it easier and more natural for the Jedi to split their focus between more than one thing at a time, and to use Force abilities like telekinesis at the same time as fighting. This "split-focus" approach is why Niman practitioners are best-placed to use two sabers at a time: they're already primed for splitting their focus between both hands.
Finally, Form VII: Juyo and Vaapad. Juyo is the "Ferocity Form": as you mentioned, it's all about using your emotions to feed your Force connection. This is potentially skirting very close to the dark side, since any emotion in a fight is generally aggressive: whether that's fear, anger, hatred, or even the joy to be found in freedom of movement and in a competitive spirit of violence. So we see Darth Maul revelling in his fight in Episode I, deliberately toying with his opponents rather than finishing them off quickly, because he draws his strength and endurance from his own eagerness to keep fighting, whilst his opponents are worn down and fatigued by his ongoing ferocity. Vaapad is the Jedi counter to this: using oneself as a conduit for the dark side of the Force, allowing one's enemy's emotions to power oneself, rather than one's own emotions. This is difficult and dangerous, but ultimately the reason Mace Windu was able to overpower Sidious and turn his lightning back on him: something we don't see anyone else pull off in the entire Star Wars saga.
Crucially, what all this means is that the Forms DON'T relate to movements, stances or false dichotomies like "attack vs defence": they make sense ONLY in the context of a connection to the Force, and the way in which a Jedi or Sith feels a connection to it.
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TL;DR: Lightsaber Forms are different approaches to using the Force in combat, rather than specific approaches to swordsmanship.
I definitely enjoy the thoughts about mindsets and different weapons needing different forms. I wish that was what they would do moving forward.
Excellent video. I’ve had similar thoughts but could never compile my thoughts into a well thought out ted talk. I’d love to see you use and duel with Dooku’s lightsaber and give a review on what you think of it.
My dream has always been a SoulsBorne Star Wars game where each of the 7 forms are branching upgrade paths you can choose from. As you upgrade the paths, It adjusts overall stats, as well as granting limited bonuses to certain stats related to the mindset and fantasy of that style. And combat would involve using these styles, and cycling through them as you fight.
Form 3 isn’t really meant for dueling, but for countering blaster fire. You’re also actually right about the blades not being weightless, most lore, at least in pre Disney canon, states that the blades are made out of plasma.
On soresu, it’s important to mention that the form was developed primarily to deflect blaster fire, and should always be used in conjunction with another form.
I'm curious about your thoughts on the various stances in the Stormlight Archive books. There are 10 or them for religious reasons, and they are as much literal forms with distinct movesets as they are mindsets
Nice, honest critic. I have felt the same ways
Hey. Just wanted to say hope much I love your content and that one day I hope we can live talk about Star Wars and swordsmanship. My team and I are going to Capital Clash for the first US Lightfencing tournament in two weeks and while we use the terminology of “form 1” and such, they have different meanings for us. May your blade stay dull and your skills sharp.
The fact that it’s supposed to be a big deal that Sidious “mastered all seven forms of lightsaber combat” tells you all you need to know about the competence of the Jedi Order
I wonder if it could be retconned that the splitting off of the battle techniques into seven “forms” was the start of the downfall of the Jedi simply because at that point, it was the start of the Jedi not being active peacekeepers seriously because if they were, they would have more practical set of forms, instead of needlessly overspecializing in stuff, even if may have been explicitly said that the forms are not strictly beholden to simply because the forms reflect a lack of understanding of battle.
@@iantaakalla8180 Another great idea! It would also mirror how martial arts become more and more art over the years. Once the focus becomes mastering a style, instead of winning a fight.
@@iantaakalla8180 Retconning every single dumb line of dialogue and lore into "why Jedi failed" is the most dumbest theory-crafting Star Wars fans have ever done. No, it's just dumb writing from Lucas and co, not some profound commentary on Jedi's failures. What's the obsession with making heroes of your story into dumbasses?
iirc you don't only train one 'form' you train most of them, and the one you become known for is the one you are most focused on,. I think what they were going for was to have various Styles as a stand in for the classic Kung Fu movie trope.
i absolutely adore this video...great work :D
I believe count dookus “form II” was not only the most realistic, but it also makes sense when handling a blade of light, primarily because Christopher Lee actually knew how to sword fight. It would definitely make more sense if a younger actor got the opportunity to fight in his style
I teach in a lightsaber coreographic fighting school and yes, the lore of the object we found our existence around is messy. In our view the forms are “ways to do certain things” meaning that there are different ways to deliver the same strikes depending on context. And forms are ways to create a certain context to deliver certain blows in a specific way. But in the end you MUST mix them up in order to have a decent coreography. Then you have the parkour guy that starts to do cool jumps and flips and you just let him because it’s beautiful to look at 😂
We need more projects like Corridor's "To the death" in terms of lightsaber choreography
I have rotoscoped two seperate lightsaber fights and I can tell you it is a pain. It would be so much harder without a blade to track, for sure.
When I think of lightsaber forms, I'm usually thinking of different fighting styles used with lightsabers. It also makes sense since not everyone is good at every subject, and the same can be applied to swordsmanship. Some might be better at defense than others, so they focused primarily on offense.