Borderline: Narcissist’s Mirror (and Avoidant Personality Disorder)
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- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2022
- Narcissist is bothered by your presence - borderline by your absence
Both try to dissolve you and eliminate your separateness, agency, personal autonomy, and independence
Either by rendering you inanimate and penalizing you for any deviation and divergence
Or by merging and fusing with you while outsourcing to you critical psychological needs and functions.
Both need to devalue and discard you:
The narcissist in order to reenact separation-individuation from a mother figure
The borderline in order to ameliorate engulfment anxiety.
Both of them become avoidant and schizoid at some stage.
The narcissist either because of deficient or negative supply (narcissistic injury or mortification) or to process a corrupted introject
The borderline in order to lick her wounds and develop abandonment anxiety sufficient to trigger another round of approach-avoidance repetition compulsion.
Should not be confused with Avoidant Personality Disorder which is an anxiety reaction to perceived or anticipated rejection - rather than a psychopathic reaction (like the Borderline’s).
AvPD is connected to people pleasing, indecisiveness, schizoid states, and to risk and conflict aversion, hesitancy, and extreme self-doubt.
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People suffering from Avoidant Personality Disorder feel inadequate, unworthy, inferior, and lacking in self-confidence. As a result, they are shy and socially inhibited. Aware of their real (and, often, imagined) shortcomings, they are constantly on the lookout, are hypervigilant and hypersensitive.
Even the slightest, most constructive and well-meant or helpful criticism and disagreement are perceived as complete rejection, ridicule, and shaming. Consequently, they go to great lengths to avoid situations that require interpersonal contact - such as attending school, making new friends, accepting a promotion, or teamwork activities. Hence Avoidant Personality Disorder.
Inevitably, Avoidants find it difficult to establish intimate relationships. They "test' the potential friend, mate, or spouse to see whether they accept them uncritically and unconditionally.
They demand continue verbal reassurances that they really wanted, desired, loved, or cared about.
When asked to describe Avoidants, people often use terms such as shy, timid, lonely, isolated, "invisible", quiet, reticent, unfriendly, tense, risk-averse, resistant to change (reluctant), restricted, "hysterical", and inhibited.
Avoidance is a self-perpetuating vicious cycle: the Avoidant's stilted mannerisms, fears for her personal safety and security, and stifled conduct elicit the very ridicule and derision that he or she so fears!
Even when confronted with incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, Avoidants doubt that they are socially competent or personally appealing. Rather than let go of their much cherished self-image, they sometimes develop persecutory delusions. For instance, they may regard honest praise as flattery and a form of attempted manipulation.
Avoidants ceaselessly fantasize about ideal relationships and how they would outshine everyone else in social interactions but are unable to do anything to realize their Walter Mitty fantasies.
In public settings, Avoidants tend to keep to themselves and are very reticent. When pressed, they self-deprecate, act overly modest, and minimize the value of their skills and contributions. By doing so, they are trying to preempt what they believe to be inevitable forthcoming criticism by colleagues, spouses, family members, and friends.
From the entry I wrote for the Open Site Encyclopedia:
The disorder affects 0.5-1% of the general population (or up to 10% of outpatients seen in mental clinics). It is often comorbid with certain Mood and Anxiety Disorders, with the Dependent and Borderline Personality Disorders, and with the Cluster A personality disorder (Paranoid, Schizoid, and Schizotypal).
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Mother: borderline. Father: narcissist. Oldest sister: Dad’s Golden Child. Now narcissistic. Next sister: Mom’s scapegoat. Now borderline. Me: not amazing enough or troubled enough to merit much attention. Now Codependent. Younger brother: Alcoholic with anger/control issues. I live thousands of miles away and have as little to do with them as possible. I still wake up from bad dreams where my two older sisters torment me like a cat’s toy.
It sounds like you were the Invisible child
Wow each one of these stories is so painfully recognisable to anybody who had something similar in their family.
Me as well
Me9 as well
@@NalaMahal yes I'm also child free
10 minutes in and you have explained my entire childhood experience. My father was a narcissist and my mother a Borderline. My father passed 8 years ago. I went no contact with my mother 3 years ago. I appreciate your videos because you validate every year of therapy, every psychology course, and every CPTSD workshop I have engaged in as I attempt to heal my heart. Your wisdom is a gift, Sam. Thank you❤️
may i ask if you hane succeeded in personal relationships ?
I really appreciate your comment. I wish you the best on your journey. ❣️
I have been working hard to understand the delusional behavior that my father had towards my mother and the expectation for everyone around to share in the fantasy. My dad was diagnosed as having bipolar but I can now see that he had strong borderline characteristics as well. It’s a bit fascinating that dad was the borderline and mom is the narcissist, because it’s most often presented as being reversed.
Prof Sam has been my Rosetta Stone. I am so grateful for the clarity.
I think I'm a male with borderline. Women have their fangs in me sometimes so bad I go PSYCHOTIC, but that's a rare symptom I think.
I genuinely think men need to go to therapy, and be honest, the ego cannot sustain that shit forever..
You'll be taken seriously if you're clearly in a bad shape, but still sort of holding onto sanity and TRUE self awareness to the core. sadly, BPD doesn't mean your horrible intrinsically, you can be stabilized out of that psychotic break state, repetition compulsion keeps you in a spell like trance... Staying in these is pointless untreated... And dangerous for EVERYONE involved 🤣
1/3rd of youth suicide can be proven as males with BPD through autopsy. I think males prevail in suicide for BPD aswell.
I really think people severely underestimate the severe effects males have to perform from gender roles, I think THIS needs to be studied with BPD and ASPD, to reduce violence, but MAINLY the BPD, as that is what ruins potential for recovery.
BPD men are walking HELLSCAPES of emotions, urges are fucking constant, and absolutely limiting sometimes, to cheat, to kill people, to hurt myself, These men are kept together by paper mache and severe drug abuse...
A very specific typology of borderline men are thought to be serial killers, due to their similar features. upbringings and motives, which ALWAYS is women hatred. Stuff on the internet goes more in depth.
High BPD traits can be found in prison male populations for violent crimes.
BPD is proven, for it's impulsive and anger traits, to lead to the most violence, probably in revenge overkills.
Most if not all familicide is commited by men, most men have BPD traits or a diagnosis worthy amount. All not in treatment, probably didn't know, women were actually snakes using the kid to fuck with the men. Narcs/psychopaths are always dating BPD types in councilling, stats are insanely high for the low amount of these disorders..
I don't think you can be morally culpable in those states of mind, but physically you should be in jail given how society functions, and I get people are severely affected, but man it's traumatizing for the men aswell it's actually fucked 😭
Amazing. My god you are a genius. Thank you thank you thank you for all of your work.
How is the borderline different than a vulnerable narcissist?
Can you please please please do more on avoidant personality disorder, Thankyou.
The person I lived most of 32 years insisted I be just like her. She was threatened if I had a separate opinion. She insisted I accompany her at all times. If she was working outside, she wanted me to just stand beside her. She was threatened if I went somewhere without her, or met with friends without her included. Yet, she treated me with distain and massive efforts to control me. She functioned fairly well away from home. I tried to be compassionate, but it wore me out. I left.
my ex has a married woman move on one night a week .. i freaked out at first .. then calmed down . I couldn’t really handle not being prioritised.. i was happy flr him to hane his female friends but aftee him sending me selfies of him hai g dinners with them two nights in a row . it got too much for me
@@tulinbeyduz920 my relationship was not romantic. I was 38 year old female and mother. She was a 18 year old girl that came to stay with us. Now I am 71 and she 51. It is so difficult for those who have mental problems, but it is difficult for those that live with them, too. Good for you to get away from a crazy good-for-nothing relationship.
Thanks so much Professor Vaknin for providing clarity to those of us who still need help in understanding why narcissists do what they do. I am apparently a magnet for such people, having grown up in a family of both overt and covert narcissists. I don't know if I'll ever be free of this, but having a better understanding really helps.
A distorted masculine plus distorted feminine. A toxic perfect match. I know this couple. Thank you for this detailed explanation.
The narcissist wants their partner to remain constant with the internalized introject, in order to maintain introject constancy. Whereas the borderline simply wants their partner to 'be there', in order to maintain object constancy. You can see why these two would theoretically make an ideal pair. The borderline will mold herself to fit within the narcissists idealized internal image, so long as the narcissist remains a constant object. The narcissist will remain a constant object, so long as the borderline maintains his idealized internal image of her. Which she will happily do, as to be disagreeable is not worth the chance of losing that which regulates her internally. It is the perfect dance. Although, the premise is that neither ever change. Hence, during this shadow dance, the two begin an infinite regression, because to not move forward, is to move backward, as time does not stand still to accommodate them. Although, if they were to understand the psychology behind the bliss they feel, it could form a quite powerful dynamic with healing properties. It may allow them to move forward, stronger together.
Or, perhaps i'm incorrect.
If only they could. I’ve (as an npd) always felt that dynamic between us and I kinda tried to logically understand what’s going on and what’s behind my and her actions. I even tried to logically explain it to my bpd partner but always felt like I’m talking to a wall. When the stress begins the bpd turns into real psychopath (I cannot agree more on that with Sam) so I wasn’t able to see her empathy anymore there was a different person inside who couldn’t recognise me and her feelings to me. So I guess the only solution is to separate for the good.
They dont feel bliss, it's a constant stream of fear of abandonment from both sides.
@@ars7655if you’re npd and single hi! Aware BPD here looking for that fire lol
@@will3634two bpds definitely can work tho
I really like these therapy session simulations that I found in couple of Professor's videos.They are very descriptive.
Absolutely astounding insights in this video thank you especially where you have a narcissistic father and then a borderline son the differences here are so useful as sometimes the two disorders can be confused
i think i’m a mix of anxious and avoidant . I went 6 years with no intimate partner .. I then dated a man that only wanted to see me once a week if even that and on his terms . It triggered me feeling not good enough . I broke it off . I can’t stop thinking of him. He tried 6 weeks getting me back , but i was deactivated as he had tried to make me jealous by saying another woman was interested in him at work . I think he thought this would make me run back to him, it made me run and run . Now i’ve had time to process my feelings .. i miss him .. I am mlt going back though .. I don’t know if i’m borderline, but personal relationships hane been hard for me . I want to get closer they don’t . Then there are the ones that want to suffocate and control me . i can’t seem to find a happy medium
@martin skyler and how’s that going for u .. so how did you come to a compromise
The mix of anxious and avoidant is called "disorganized attachment" in childhood and called "fearful-avoidant" in adulthood. I only mention it because I am too, and knowing the terminology makes it easier to get more info
@@puddlesplasher7 ok thanks
@@lilyjane1011 i feel ya
If he has self awareness, he might be able to reduce the controlling behaviour if you call them out on it, and make them beg 😂 idk maybe not it could be fun
Omg wow!!! That's why they are so opposite and contradictory!!! Thank you so much!!!
Thank you for this video !!!
Thanks Sam. You broke this topic down very well. Made me look back and understand the bizarre behaviors I had to deal with. It’s complicated when you understand more because I wonder and seems she was in between the borderline and narc spectrum. These things kinda intertwine. Because there were times they threaten to discard you yet, they can change there mind quickly. Hence abandonment anxiety. But on the narc side seems they can also devalue and rid you easily. Possibly because there has been too much narc injury…
I'm Borderline. And I'm feel exactly the same. Great description)) thanks a lot.
5 minutes in and I hate how much this is on point lol
Professor Vaknin, thank you.
Fascinating! I think I’m avoidant personality disorders. I thought I might be borderline.
Thank you !!!
😮 This is crazy. I’m pretty sure Ive been in an on and off Borderline (Anxious Preoccupied)/Narcissist (Dismissive Avoidant) relationshit with someone the past year. Im hearing so much of reality and clarity in what he’s saying.
Thank you ❤️
I hope you can make another video focus exclusively on Avoidant and how it’s interpersonal dynamic (whether to attract or repel) among the Cluster B group.
I was in a relationship with a pwBPD and as an avoidant, that idealization stage is heaven. Though, that's probably true for everyone lol
@@TheyBenefit insane how perfect it feels. Utterly addicting.
“Echo can only repeat what narcissist says”
That's amazing that's me and the narcissist, play with their 🐈 lol, I'm gobsmacked, thankyou very much.
Very good breakdown. I feel like we could almost reduce it down to masking in autism and CPTSD, stemming from a lack of validation in personal relationships.
would you be so kind and make a video on avoidant PD
I feel like the Covert Narcissist I had been seeing struggled with both.
He would discard me out of nowhere- and then take me back, but then I remember one day he said, "are you going to leave me?" almost like he was panicking.
He discarded me 3 times over 7 months- but it was such an emotional rollercoaster, I couldnt tell if he was borderline or narcissistic. He also seemed to have a Dismissive Avoidant Attachment Style- so whenever I would try to reassure him- he would push me away even more. It was SO confusing,
💔x
Sounds like me wtf 😂 it's a completely almost dissociative process, he needs help, and if you can learn to help them, without suffocating, you can idealize for very long periods of time.
Not without therapy tho 😂
9:00 Reminds me I saw a video the other day with a thumbnail saying, "Men, your relationship will drastically improve if you let your woman hold on to your keys."
Firstly thanks so much for your videos… they are sooo informative and make sense.. Can a person be a borderline and also a covert narcissist???? Or are they either or?
Such comorbidity would be rare, but possible.
Separated from my borderline after two decades. About six weeks later, she kills someone; did I dodge a bullet?
not all borderlines are killers . perhaps she has psychopathy too
😳😳😳 psychopath moment
How depressing. I’m in a four year to and fro relationship with a borderline man. He’s trying to leave a narcissistic wife. I’m avoidant. We’ve been apart six months and he’s started hoovering again….and I’ve given him an ultimatum which has made him withdraw again. My abandonment wound is wide open again. It’s exhausting.
you are SUPERGENIUS, for the lack of a greater word.
Prof Vaknin thank you for the video. Can you make a video on the psychodynamics of the avoidant pd. Does it fit into your model of narcissistic pd and borderline pd? Are the elements of needing to be seen and having an internalized bad object the same?
Needing to be seen? No it’s fear. Internalized bad object and need for reassurance yes.
My guess anyway
Very interesting video Dr. Vaknin. I have been diagnosed with PTSD and now C-PTSD and also Avoidant Personality Disorder. I came from parents where my father was enabler and my mother a possible narcissist or borderline (Some form of Cluster B). I've often felt I displayed Borderline traits, especially in my teens and 20's. I've been following you since around the year 2000 when I knew my childhood wasn't healthy and when trying to figure out who I am. I've been studying Cluster B since then (I am 47 years old). Way before it became mainstream. I voluntarily took a psych eval. about 4 years ago which has me diagnosed with APD. Thanks for making a video showing how they are all similar, but yet different on the inside. Can you explain the concept of Narcissists not being able to be alone or without a partner if they isolate at times? This part of your video confused me. Most with NPD do not ever want to be without a partner in my experience. Also, I'm confused when you mention negative supply and how this causes a Narcissistic injury. I thought negative supply is better than none to the NPD person? I'm sure you've covered this somewhere at some point. Maybe you can point me in the right direction to the proper videos?
I am looking for an answer of my question about object constancy. If we look at cluster B as a relational personality disorder wth emphasis on grandiosity or emotional disregulation or antisocial behavior (I think it represents the picture much more better as 3 separate disorders) then during the life spam the emphasis can change, if I understand it right. So my husband has very pronounced features of narcissism all his life with me (about 22 years). So it means he had introject constancy. This phenomenon is very real. After some very difficult circumstances in our life his grandiosity was challenged in a very strong way, and now I see a visible reduction of his grandiosity. Can it be so, or I only imagine this? But he gained object inconstancy like a borderline. If I come out of our house for 2 hours, he starts calling me, asks to send pictures of my location every half an hour. I thought it is a manifestation of narcissistic control. Yes it has an element of control, but he suffers really, if I am out of sight. I couldn't believe it at first, I thought it is his manipulation, he pretends to suffer, if I am not in his presence. I am observing and proving this object inconstancy for a period of time. It seems, that he became more like a borderline. If I am not physically present, he becomes very anxious and says he always thinks, that I will not come back. After we spoke about it, and I gave him my favorite sun glasses, he bought me 15 years ago, it became much more better. I can go to work and he starts calling only at the end of my working day (6 hours:))) Sometimes he says, that he doesn't want to live any more. It drives me crazy. Can it be, that a narcissist becomes more borderline? What about object inconstancy in this case? What about suicidal ideation, is it real now? It feels that he means it really. When we were younger he used to say he will kill himself if I go. It was definitely manipulation, I feel it. Now it is different.
What if you have a mixed disorder with traits of both NPD and BPD?
It's said there can be an overlap in personality disorders,where they gets traits from each other. JazzyT.
Is it possible to have both NPD and Avoidant Personality Disorder?
Yes. It is covert narcissism.
I wonder how this would apply to your diagnosis of the Covert Borderline, it being some what of the chimera of cluster B
I have avpd and some thinks im bpd and npd. I ts not that what matters because they are not experts its just hard to feel misunderstood when i already feel im not very efficient in life. Im longing to people with the approach avoidance dynamic, i did idolise someone when i was in relationship (with someone with bpd). Usually everyone fails before it gets even a real interest because my point is everyone will abandon me eventually. Since long time now i think about myself exactly like a failed bpd, same feelings and triggers just more reserved introverted / lonely reactions. And kind of a fool in life with the most foolish personality disorder from all.
@@grenouillesscent finding a new job is very difficult, due to lack of trust in myself and feeling unable to succeed in the process, I choose jobs that require a lot less than my abilities, i keep them way too longer than i should, i cant handle change well and in order to keep it i work hard and they exploit this, i take the worse tasks without complain for years until my body cant do it anymore. Job is my social place everyone knows me i make jokes with everyone try to be funny so they dont ask deeper questions while entertained, when they invite me to go out 9/10 im not going, I would like to but i convince myself it would be awkward. When work is finished i can be very drained if i interacted with a lot of my colleagues. So even though im trying to overcome these issues and there are times im functioning pretty well i consider it as a serious thing.
So borderline and narcissist are the same thing. They are each other's equals yet with different and complementary adaptations. The yin and yang ☯️ It's quite beautiful actually...in a deliciously perverse way😄 They must hate, adore and fear each other fervently. It's the type of romance many of us love to read in books and watch in movies. Maybe we don't want it for ourselves irl but we love to be an audience to it:) Fascinating. Love this channel.
God's sense of humor
😂😂😂😂 like hell on earth. God, to give in to the SLOW hoover back on both sides, is crazy.
I've never read or heard a commentary that encapsulates my experience of this dynamic so well. This is, in fact, the rationale that keeps me locked in: it is high romance. There is dark romance underpinning the adverse and complimentary mirror gazing, the slashing of each others' core wounds, the endless, triggering mutual fascination.
Dr Vaknin, can you make a video regarding a person with APD having a BPD spouse?
@@Laura-nl8df no
Every Major Galaxy has a Black Hole at their core center, so i think we're in good company, us Borderlines and the Milky Way🌌🙃🌌
Prof. Sam Vaknin, I see many parallels between avoidant (and especially fearful avoidant) and borderline intimate partnership traits. Why is there so little content out there comparing and differentiating fearful avoidant and borderline relationship dynamics, specifically in so called "romantic" or spousal contexts (not talking about intergenerationally/within the blood ties of family, just about dating, relationships and at most marriage)
Hey anybody else in the comments know how to get the channel creator's attention. Do you do the "at" sign like
@Prof. Sam Vaknin
Or
@Prof._Sam_Vaknin
Is either of these the correct format?
I'm trying to get him to read my comment above.
Completely agree on the borderline/FA intertwining. Almost positive my ex suffered from both. Putting the pieces together post-breakup and while so much of what she provided me regarding her background was fragmented… it’s all coming together. Part of me is glad I didn’t find out about these things until after I had been devalued and discarded. It would have been too much to manage without her being in treatment. Tragic. I do care about her, and think I may love her. But how could I possibly know if I love her if she doesn’t even know who she is? Maddening.
Probably because we don't usually get into relationships in the first place.
It's not our thing. (mostly)
Personally i try to sabotage and push back everyone who tries to get close to me. (it might be a rationalization on my part to assume everyone got ulterior motives and just looks for an opportunity to ridicule me but i feel fine on my own)
Never trusted anyone and because of that i might be somewhat closer to Schizoid PD traits.
Also i just don't want to fail somewhere down the line and get someone else in trouble.
But there are ofc. these atypical cases when it works out for other people, i guess it's mostly just like a normal relationship between relatively normal people with low self-esteem but you find a few people like that here on YT who are content creators so it's better to ask them.
Thank God I've found this man
Algo 👋
If your borderline ex girlfriend ends up with a narcissist partner after she leaves you and gets married to him would she still hoover you? Or would she be content with the "love of her life"?
Depends on how they stay together, abusive behaviour just escalate lol
My ex DEFINITELY keeps tabs on me, she still has my mom on Facebook but removed me years after while she's married. Gal is obsessed with keeping strings everywhere 😂
She's waiting for you to make her jealous btw. Date someone that kills her self esteem!!
i have bpd and at 25 i had a good job and savbings and a flat in london, i fell in love, and got diagnosed bpd in my partners country, i devalued and discarded and then missed him, i can't stand knowing this, how do i fix me? iv never cheated on him, i never will but iv never had problems like this in my life its so upsetting though im worried im avoidant
I am so clear on which disorder I exhibit. I took the MMPI years ago and I was slightly Narcissistic. Years of watching your videos I couldn’t decide if I was a borderline or a Narcissist. This video says the Borderline always Hoovers. I called it recycling and I always recycle. No one is ever free, not even if they destroy my everything. So I am not a Narcissist I am a borderline. I only feel “right” with Narcissists and I always welcome theM back, no matter how deplorable and destructive the behavior. I need constant attention so I have 3 men or more to lean on or I am seriously disabled. No sex due to over sex in past and smothered and trapped feelings if any are occasionally nice to me. Especially if they are not narcissistically inclined and show empathy or love. That solves that mystery.
Watch my videos on the inverted narcissist.
@@samvaknin ok. Thank you!
@@HadleyMeredith are you happy mostly ? or is it like being on a roller coaster
I wonder how (develomentally) a person with avpd fails to be a bpd. Do you think ocpd could also be seen as an inverted BPD?
Can a narcissist be obsessed with a female even tho he is in a relationship with another woman? Wouldn’t the new woman replace the old target? Why would my narcissist want to move back and be even closer to me when he discarded me seven years ago.
Maybe he thinks he's losing you as a feed.
How does a white shirt suit you!)
seeing all these people cry about knowing someone with borderline is really funny