This was my relationship exactly. When he started to be passive aggressive and was giving me the silent treatment, I gave it right back. Then he would beg me to talk to him. It was so toxic. It was like that one relationship brought out the worst in me.
Same here! Her looks were what trapped me. Everything else was extremely toxic and brought out the worst in me. She was a beauty tho…I’ll give her that!
Sam this is spot on. This is me and my husband. I left him a year ago with our 3 beautiful babies in tow. When we met we were both living in Las Vegas. I was a Marilyn Monroe impersonator. He was a simple man, or so I thought. I 100% married him for love. I have always been obsessed with true love. I thought this was it. The man tried to steal my confidence. He tried to take my personality and claim it as his own. He triangulated me against all of my friends, all of his friends. He wanted to rip my very hood reputation away from me. He took my light for quite some time. He did it all. He was evil I can’t even describe. After watching this I absolutely know that I’m a covert borderline. I knew something was up with me but I never felt I fully fit into a narcissist category. Didn’t fully fit into a borderline category. I had a therapist for a few months. We came to a conclusion that I am borderline borderline. I never knew about this covert borderline. I have too much confidence, but not enough confidence in my opinion. I will put myself out there. But I carry a lot of deep sadness. I was an orphan. I had a crazy intense childhood and life altogether. I mean well. I always mean well. Sometimes I fail morality wise. I forgive myself. I do truly love myself. I’ve overcome every mothereffing thing that has come my way. I always win. But I always feel slightly suicidal. I wouldn’t actually do it. I left. I have to give my babies everything I never had. 🙏 Love you Mr Vaknin! 🌻
While my life is horrible i really enjoy these videos because it helps me understand. Not enough psychiatrists or therapists understand or can explain it so well like this in my experience.
Omg!! I always thought I had narcissitic tendancies but I have emotions & love so was confused. Now I think I'm a covert borderline. I think this is why if someone does me wrong, I'm not able to walk away & need to hold them accountable, the narcissistic side comes out & my 'empathy' detaches.
When you said the covert borderline is like a scientist! That’s exactly how it felt! Also our ability to rationalize and make the narcissist feel ok about themselves! Once I stopped doing that for him it was war. He hated me. Now he treats me like a cousin or something. He’s in Las Vegas doing petty crimes.. being ridiculous. He video chats with our children daily. It’s all weird.
it's called a dance macabre, an endless dance in "hell" of the narcissist and the borderline. I think from what i've seen that borderline is almost a natural defence against a narcissist. It is psychologically a failed narcissist. But even if healthy you would start to be borderline a little or narcissistic as natural defence with a narcissist. Narcissists really are attracted to borderlines, they mirror their "dead" mother. And the dance continues until someone switches the beat and thinks, i won't raise my children that way. Borderline heal or do get better quite a lot, even though it probably is the more difficult and intense route. Emotions are there to heal also not only misguide you. They are telling you something. Bordeline is a type of ptsd i would think even more than narcissism, i think Dr Vaknin recently said that narcissism might even be a type of decision. There probably was a trigger early in npd but it's a more efficient defence against anxiety than borderline. Borderline can heal, because what is life without true emotions, grey. Life is full spectrum the borderline simply is overwhelmed by it.
@@XOChristianaNicole I really can relate As older child in family I always had to sacrifice for my sister and for mother too ( you have to live them right ?) So it developed through years and after divorce I found that my family has bad dynamics so I moved away ( took care of dad after he had stroke at 52 and I think we both were punching bags and I didn’t want to repeat his fate) They blamed me but I asked if they can stop spreading all of our communication aside from CA relatives but they didn’t respond They always had things their way which opened my eyes
My father and I are pure covert borderlines. I had so much misunderstanding until I found that diagnosis in your videos. It explains everything even in details. And the couple you’ve described in that video are my parents. Thank you for your work!
You came in a time where my covert narcissist blocked me on all social media because he couldn’t make the shared fantasy come to fruition. So like a coward, he ghosted me. It hurts so bad because I did love him even with his flaws. You’re more help than any of my friends or relatives.
It's a endless loop the same will happen to the next person again. It hurts now but in the end did you a favor not to stick around, you don't want to be treated that way and ghosting aka silent treatment is a coward's way (it's like psychologically killing you, because you feel as if you don't exist. Very ugly).... "Real" people talk things out and understand that ending a relationship will hurt the partner so try to be empathetic when ending a relationship. You are here and see what really happened, fantasy is the contrary of reality and not worth the price of a true caring partner, reality will always intrude on a fantasy. You will love again, see it maybe as losing innocence and an experience rather than true love.
This is my parents relationship exactly. It’s hell to grow up seeing so much discontent and a pair so ill-matched. She should have divorced ages ago but my narcissistic mom needed to uphold the fantasy, at least on the surface level, and my dad needed to keep hoping for change. It’s tragic and mournful.
You have described me and my wife precisely...our relationship followed the exact arc you describe. I had goosebumps because what you were saying just landed with such heavy truth. Thank you for the energy and resource you put into sharing your wisdom and insight. It has been a positive and reliable light to turn to in darkness.
Prof Vaknin, an absolutely brilliant description of the covert borderline and covert narcissist. 🎉 It makes so much sense. Also, the fact that the covert borderline transforms her bad inner object into a good one is so true. The vapid, flimsy, intellect of the covert narcissist that the covert borderline tries to compensate by giving advices, solutions and explanations is finally explained. Your channel is the best, no other “expert” goes down to that level of finesse and depth when describing these two types. Congratulations and also all my gratefulness.
Exactly like my best friend from a few years ago. He wanted true love from me so badly but always hid it (we're gay). Eventually erupted after two years and smeared me and made me lose my job. A confident and "altruistic" person on the surface, but deeply sensitive and vengeful inside. He was very good at pretending to like the things I liked. That made us quickly became very close. But he was always looking for something more. Absolutely a covert borderline.
THAT has just described my 20 year relationship as though you were there on a daily basis. I will also say that everything I saw and said to my covert narc has been vindicated by your 100% accurate analysis. It feels good to have full understanding.
The ending! I always did say that he was a great storyteller! And that is why I fell in love with him lol! What a joke. How is this so very accurate? Sam! You did it again. You changed my life! Again! Not the first time. I can go on living now. Now that you confirmed what I already know. That we are not/ were not and never will be compatible. It’s ok! I am ok. Maybe one day I will find that love I seek! Truth is I found it with my children! Just like you said. Just like I always knew I would. 🧡👩🏼👦🏻👩🏼🦱👧🏻🧡
I am astounded. I can’t believe that other people have experienced this. In my own world, ive never even heard of anything like it apart from in my own disastrous life. She may have been a covert narcissist, I am bpd and likely covert. 3 years that went exactly how you stated. I enjoyed being able to feel what ive been seeking, even if it was illegitimate. We’re finally parting ways, tons of damages were dealt and countless invaluable lessons about myself and my disorder were learned.
Mr. Vaknin, you are just blowing up this world. Thank you so much for all you do. The information you provide (and it is for free^^) is priceless. The words cannot express how grateful I am for all your videos.
Thank you so much Dr. Vaknin for this video that will help me stop focusing on my ex. narcissist (male), and start focusing on myself, the covert borderline (female). Would you eventually make a video about the type of children these two will bring to the world?
This is amazing. You have just described my last relationship. My therapist couldn't make up his mind wheather I was a borderline or ADHD with BPD trades. Now it seems to me that i might be a covert BPD 😮
I have watched hundreds of hours of professor Vaknin's content and yet this video is the one I keep coming back to every time my ex narc hoovers. It's as if professor Vaknin watched my entire relationship with my ex unfold and made this video based on it. I fit the description of covert borderline really well (though official dx is cptsd) and my ex parter was a female covert narcissist. This video gives me chills down my spine because it matches everything that went down in my past relationship down to every single detail. Be honest, professor Vaknin, are you spying on us? :)
This is incredible Prof Vaknin. It describes the trauma bonded fantasy I shared with an intimate partner in almost perfect detail. I think I need to watch this a few more times.
Knew my ex is a covert narcissist but had no idea that I myself had been displaying so many of these "covert borderline" tendencies in the relationship. Hadn't even heard of the term before, always thought there was no way I could possibly be borderline... not so sure now.
You have just described mine (as covert borderline) and my grandma’s (covert narcissist) relationship. How I wish I would have known this many years ago so I could have gotten away from her.
Phenomenal lecture, i've been waiting for the description of this exact combo of covert npd/covert bpd. I'm the covert npd side and have always been finding covert bpd's as partners because i unconsciously dont't like typical bpd's as i find them too selfless/clingy and unstable and overt npds are too arrogant and unpleasant to be around. So it seems that covert bpd is a perfect match (not so) because just like Sam mentioned there is so little in common between me and a covert bpd partner, i've always felt misunderstood and accused of all the problems in a relationship (although now i realise that i was uninvested and aloof in the relationship and mostly did nothing and invested nothing). We both wanted the relationship to work so badly but the outcome was inevitable i guess... completely different views of a relationship, kinda sick in different ways from both of us but sadly in a collapsed state i now realise that my behaviour was totally delusional and inadequate and probably i could've done a lot of things differently but i simply couldn't resist my disordered nature at the moment. Funny enough but cBPD was the drama queen in the relationship not me, i simply wanted us to freeze forever and live in this enmeshed but distant fantasy where i would be left alone until i wanted some supply and fun with my partner.
I'm the cbpd partner... And you just described my relationship with my cnpd partner... Tho our relationship lasted not so long since I couldn't stand his mind games... But I did love him really deeply and let him now. Would you say there's any feelings towards the cptsd partner from your side? Anything from your part was real (as it can be)? Just curious... I'm still trying to reconciliate these mixed feelings since it hasn't been long ago, he already discarded me and is already looking for a new supply
@@wzlkk3ghlf091 Sorry for the late response, for some reason i don't recieve notifications on youtube.. I'd be very careful taking other people's advices here because 99% of diagnoses here are self-made and our life experiences can differ a lot. But in my case i did experience "love" at least that was my definition of love. I suffered after the break up a lot and grieved her (prob more 4S's than a person at first and there was mostly rage/wish to undermine her in first months). As Sam mentioned, during the relationship i indeed felt a lot of jealousy for her as she was much more capable of life and experienced/successful than me and didn't hesitate to point me at that issue, i'm a very Big Lebowski type of guy (but good looking and was raised with a golden spoon in my mouth yet still became a true failure in life - she helped with that too btw i was too busy managing her crazy-making behaviour rather my education and job for 7 years, yet now i realize thats why i picked her in the first place, not because i wanted her to be a nice gf/spouse) it triggered her badly and she did almost everything to change my attitude in life (i.e. made me a resume, passed some exams for me etc) but i just didn't care then.. Now i kinda grateful for everything she did but still i realize it was done mostly for her benefit (she tried to match me up with her idea of a perfect partner - she didn't care about "real me".. if that even exists) and i'm not even mentioning other crazy stuff she did, the typical decompensation behaviour of the borderline that i can't forgive her for and ever let her back. So back to your question - it kinda was very important to me but in utilitarian way, in my mind i really loved and cared for her but in reality it rarely materialized into action, i was dismissive and passive, mostly netflix-s*x chill was important for me, it's funny to me now how invested ("cathected") i was into her then. i almost believed my own readiness to have children with her/live together etc... thank God i never made it happen, my life would've likely been even worse now. In my case i was discarded (im a cnpd as i believe it now) and she moved on even before the actual discard i believe, then tried all npd stuff online like posting her new bf everywhere and publicly doing stuff we used to do together but with him to make me suffer, now her new relationship failed miserably and she rarely covertly tries to attract my attention via social media. I find it funny and cringey and i hate her guts so i just expect to totally ignore her for the rest of my life, hopefully one day i won't even remember about that relationship, it already doesn't bother nearly me as much as it used before (it's been 2.5 years since the break up). The whole situation made me open my eyes and live in a painful reality rather than joyful imagination, helps a lot actually, i got rid of a lot of fake ppl in life since then and can see myself more objectively now. Hope it helps. Btw did you try any social media mind games with your ex/would like him to make a move towards you again? I'm really curious now cuz i've never chatted with a supposedly cbpd in those 2.5 years and your perspective might be insideful.
@@wzlkk3ghlf091 probably youtube deleted my comment for some reason, can't see it here, thankfully it was saved - posting it again without a questionable word. Sorry for the late response, for some reason i don't recieve notifications on youtube.. I'd be very careful taking other people's advices here because 99% of diagnoses here are self-made and our life experiences can differ a lot. But in my case i did experience "love" at least that was my definition of love. I suffered after the break up a lot and grieved her (prob more 4S's than a person at first and there was mostly rage/wish to undermine her in the first months). As Sam mentioned, during the relationship i indeed felt a lot of jealousy with her as she was much more capable of life and experienced/successful than me and didn't hesitate to point me at that issue, i'm a very Big Lebowski type of guy (but good looking and was raised with a golden spoon in my mouth yet still became a true failure in life - she helped with that too btw i was too busy managing her crazy-making behaviour rather than my education and job for 7 years, yet now i realize thats why i picked her in the first place, not because i wanted her to be a nice gf/spouse) it triggered her badly and she (rather agressively) did almost everything to change my attitude in life (i.e. made me a resume, passed some exams for me, given pieces of advice etc) but i just didn't care then.. Now i kinda grateful for everything she did but still i realize it was done mostly for her benefit (she tried to match me up with her idea of a perfect partner - she didn't care about "real me".. if that even exists) and i'm not even mentioning other crazy stuff she did, the typical decompensation behaviour of the borderline that i can't forgive her for and ever let her back. So back to your question - it kinda was very important to me but in utilitarian way, in my mind i really loved and cared for her but in reality it rarely materialized into action, i was dismissive and passive, mostly netflix and chill with her was important for me, it's funny to me now how invested ("cathected") i was into her then. i almost believed my own readiness to have children with her/live together etc... thank God i never made it happen, my life would've likely been even worse now. In my case i was discarded (im a cnpd as i believe now) and she moved on even before the actual discard i believe, then tried all npd stuff online like posting her new bf everywhere and publicly doing stuff we used to do together but with him to make me suffer, now her new relationship failed miserably and she rarely covertly tries to attract my attention via social media. I find it funny and cringey and i hate her guts so i just expect to totally ignore her for the rest of my life, hopefully one day i won't even remember about that relationship, it already doesn't bother nearly me as much as it used before (it's been 2.5 years since the break up). The whole situation made me open my eyes and live in a painful reality rather than joyful imagination, helps a lot actually, i got rid of a lot of fake ppl in life since then and can see myself more objectively now. Hope it helps. Btw did you try any social media mind games with your ex/would like him to make a move towards you again? I'm really curious now cuz i've never chatted with a supposedly cbpd in those 2.5 years and your perspective might be insideful.
Excellent as always. As a psychologist and borderline I am so happy to have found your content, it’s the only thing so far I have found useful. You are adding so much to the field. Would you consider making one of the videos in this series on the relationship between covert and classic borderline? And/or both classic borderline?
Wow! i just discover I am a covert borderline. You have explained so well my relationship with a covert narcissist. I am blown away! And yes, I got bored...🙂
My dad had covert borderline and he loved us children very much After he died I felt like I lost mom Mother has covert narcissism- so victimizing now so makes me sick with her demands My sister is narcissistic and they are are coupled
I would have written an email, but I figured this is probably the best chance to be seen by someone who can help. I apologize for its length. No one else will understand in my physical life and I am a narcissist after all. I ended a relationship that seemed like romantic nightmare about a week ago. Everything in my "being" had told me to stay out of this relationship but yet I still avoided those thoughts to try to make it work. A couple months over one year of getting triggered by passive aggressive behavior, put-downs, horribly bad moods and triggering my partners shame with criticism of this behavior, which she either had no recollection of or spun it into a “joke”, I felt as if my "soul" was starting to leave my body. I was constantly worried she was doing something strange, I didn't trust her. Why I stayed I couldn’t say at the time. I knew nothing then of what I know now I no longer had interest in almost anything I had liked before the relationship. I stopped listening to certain genres of music I enjoyed because she didn't enjoy them(music has always been important to me, two narcissists playing car disc jockey is a nightmare). I stopped hanging with family and my few close friends, not only because I had my time occupied with her but I had actually had no desire to at the time, and I slowly started have a horrible attitude towards everyone else. After every problem, I tried to change how I would operate so it did not happen again(I had a problem with her only wanting to hang out with guy friends, I gave in, saw the childish aspect and let it go, toning down vulgarity, toning down jokes, things of that nature). My ability to change was the one of the only things she said anything positive towards. But it seemed as though she really felt as if she didn't need to look into herself at all.(I actively go to therapy, quit drinking about 5 years ago, now I know from watching these lectures that there was/is much more than alcoholism happening, time to look elsewhere for therapy.) I was feeling so horrible in this relationship, I definitely started to discard her in my mind, I wanted out and didn’t know how. I can now literally tell when I was fighting approach/avoidance. While she was away visiting family, she had no signal to her cellphone, I had a long time to think, a long time to hang with friends again, and a realization hit me. These people have always accepted me always for who I was, we were having a great time together, and I had been spending a long time not being accepted, hating myself for it. When she had seen me for the first time upon arriving back in America her face was that usual face she has when first gazes upon me, almost as if she was disappointed by my presence, hurts me every time too. But the time we had was fabulous, there was nothing sexual, we cuddled all night and my doubts about the relationship vanished for a moment, but I could not help but notice her speech towards me was very reminiscent of someone trying to talk to a person they just met. Afterwards, I asked her why she was being so nice to me. Her answer was along the lines of “seeing other happy couples and wanting it”, which she rephrased to “I saw happy couples and it made me want to treat you better”. Of course I was hurt by such a substance-less reason to fix our relationship and made it known as I usually did with my grievances, which I now know why I constantly do, it is too much. I asked her about our very long kiss we had before she went off on her trip. She says she doesn’t even remember this. Again causing an even heavier consideration to end things. Now I really can’t even trust the trip was what she said it was. The straw on the back was when she greeted one of my good long time friends with a painfully groaned "hi" after he greeted with her with ecstatic enthusiasm. We were all in a great mood but she blamed a stomach ache this time for the attitude. While the behavior from anyone else would have been just fine, this was one time too many and she had just returned from a vacation. I broke out of the fantasy I was pulled back into the previous day and provided her with an ultimatum(on the phone and in private of course). I wanted her to go to therapy for her what seemed like never ending depression either by herself or with me and that I could not see her until she does so. I could not allow myself to see her physically because bad aspects would always seem to vanish. She only agreed to do it because I was leaving, otherwise she made it known that she thinks she needs no type of recovery from any trauma(she had a physically abusive ex who overdosed before me she wouldn't stop comparing me to, I am also convinced she has childhood trauma she does not like discussing, she suffered a psychotic break during covid when her grandfather died, I now believe that is the person who started her shame). During the wait for her first scheduled session my brain went into overdrive trying to figure out why I behaved the way I behaved. I have a stable job, and a stable place to live, financially I am good, though this relationship has definitely rocked the boat, I can still function in society, but I have behaved very badly in the past. This was my first "serious" relationship since I stopped drinking but I didn't need alcohol this time to destroy myself and others. My only other long relationship started when I was barely 20 and “lasted” until 28. I had no experience, so I got to research, eventually ending up here with the professors videos. I started to listen to this video and sat in absolute horror as the professor described my entire relationship(and previous) as if he was a fly on the wall, even getting the "he" and "she" correct. The reason for my brutal honesty, affinity to not be affiliated with groups or labels, and the reason for my many hobbies were explained to me. After 33 years my entire life had unlocked, this had explained so much that has happened to me. My fantastical side thanked my now ex for my “awakening”, and I realized my recovery is most likely never going to end, and that is okay. I have taken the professors advice and have isolated. I will not be entirely isolated as I do have very good friends and family in my life who have been there through my worst and have seen a change after I stopped abusing alcohol. I will not hurt people anymore including the person I was seeing, knowing what I know now I had to end things fully with her regardless of her going to therapy. She does not want to understand how we feed off of each other. She said I broke her heart, I’m not sure if that is true. I’m most likely not on her mind, I texted her to just see if she was okay after going silent after the break up, she texted back as if nothing was wrong. I will try to let go. This was a long winded intro to the following questions. Whoever can help, anyone who has been or who is in this situation, anyone with knowledge or if I’m lucky the professor himself. I thank you for your time. Are my happy feelings of relief and being more confident in myself the result of completing the 7 phase? Or am I just relieved that I can finally be myself again and I am done with this tumultuous depressive relationship? Maybe even both? I know these feelings of “awakening” and “I know myself” must also come from this recent discovery of me being a borderline candidate which complicates how I feel about the thoughts themselves. I contacted everyone who has ever accepted me for who I was and told them they are appreciated and I love them. I thought it was me appreciating those who have shown me love because I had just been through something where I hadn’t been accepted no matter what I did. But after hearing a few lectures, Is this "love" and “acceptance” of myself and others a result of my faux-individuation? My feelings of happiness also derive from me being promoted at my job one day after the breakup. Maybe I am feeling all of this simultaneously. I truly do value those who have saw the potential in me. I want to change and have been trying for quite some time, and I thought I was better equipped until this relationship. I want to have confidence in myself but its hard to tell if its narcissism or confidence right now. I know I have all bad me/all good mom split. This explains the countless times why I complained about no one loving me when was a child. No professional my mother brought me to ever said anything close to this. How does a self aware "recovering" narcissist even recover? Is recovery even possible? What would be the daily mental obstacles a possible changing narcissist must face? How do I solidify my good object if I have one?(I’m guessing mine is self created if it is a functioning good object) Will a “savior” type career suit a certain type of narcissist well and scratch their itch? Creativity in various art forms and a belief of a “higher power” works well for me and now I know why, learning about external and internal objects. I will continue to use my fantasy defense because apparently I make up my own rules in life and honestly its very true. Haha. I apologize if I missed any information that has already been covered. Thank you for anyone who has taken the time to read this ramble. No one else will understand in my current life. I usually never comment but this is important to me. I want to stop hurting myself and others and will isolate(especially romantically) as much as possible until I can do so. I am absolutely not saying I did not engage in my share of toxicity. But I am absolutely certain I want it to stop. Thank you for your knowledge Professor Vaknin. With much fantastical and grandiose love, -Borderline Candidate
Prof Vaknin, Thank you for this. I've been studying & researching for weeks trying to makes some sense out of my recently ended relationship, & to better understand myself in relationships. You have detailed my entire 1.5yr relationship expressly & as accurately as if you had watched our movie. She: CN Me: CB I wish that sharing this w her or her family could help her, but I cannot imagine that it would or could. You have helped me a great deal. So, how does a CB improve & grow beyond this state?
Yet another extremely helpful video which I can fully relate to, even though I've never heard the term covert borderline before. I have often asked myself how I survived childhood and this would appear to explain how, plus it highlights the dynamic of my relationship with my covert narcissist ex husband. Will need to listen again (and possibly again) and process properly before I self diagnose tho haha.
How is it that you told everything about my sister's husband (covert narcissist). Every single thing is true there. Unbelievable... And on the same time i myself happened to seem like a covert borderline in my marriage with my ex husband who mostly acted like an overt narc, rarely like a covert one. Is it also possible for this scenario you described to be between covert borderline and overt narcissist? And if a covert narcissist (man) acts exactly like you mentioned can his partner be a someone else than a covert borderline? His behavior will hardly change with abother type of person? Lots of respect for your channel, your contribution! Your interview with Iranian singer is miraculous, cant forget it)
This explains why my mother is hellbent on taking my kids from me. It's her vindication for failing as a mother...now, she wants a redo with my kids and projects her bad motherness onto me so that she can feel better about herself. It's creepy as hell. I wish she would go away.
this is exactly the dynamics of me and my ex girlfriend. I'm a male Covert BPD and she's a Covert narcissist as far as I'm concerned. RN we live normally as friends tho, it's because we both study psychology and did our best to be healthy for each other..
Sad story... my family’s personal case on 99%, sad to realise that I’ve been hooked on that and now we are 10 years in marriage. Perhaps it was necessary to meet her in order to escape from my psychopathic parents. Was listening till the end and forgot I have dinner ready on the table. Thanks for the video, I emailed you but nobody replied..
You described almost perfectly the relationship my parents had and still have. What could possibly be the outcome of this relationship regarding me and my brother as a result? Thank you so much for all the mind-blowing insight you providet!
In the middle when you talk about what I did wrong :( I did criticize him. But he was terrible. I gave him unwavering support… but he messed up too many times. And he was out having fun without me! And that’s a no no for me. How dare he leave me out of his life and adventures. While I was at home with the babies. And I needed a break every once in a while. Yes I over analyzed it all. I went and had my own “adventures” and I mortified him. And then he plotted revenge. It was all like sone sort of lifetime movie. I need therapy. Please send me recommendations!! Help me out friend.
@sam vaknin. Can narcisssists be cowards? I have been punished by my boyfriend or now ex, by being blocked from everything on his phone. He couldn’t even tell me we are over. I have written numerous emails and nothing. In the past emails worked but now no reply. I decided to give up. Would like to know if narcissist also suffer from cowardice.
professor, I beg you please create a video about relationship between a covert borderline man and a classic borderline woman with strong narcissistic traits, 🙏🙏🙏
I wonder, is a borderline or a covert borderline capable of getting his own emotions under control? I see a lot of the things you describe with the covert borderline within myself and in my history of relationships. With the small exception that i worked for more than a decade to get my emotions under control.. and to some extent i was successful in that. And i managed to overcome my own negative self image when i was in my early 20s by producing evidence in my own defense by virtue of my successess in life. Improving health and fitness, financial stability and even my relationship with my family members. I am also very prone to giving and wanting to provide. Im not so much interested in personal gain, so much that i just want to see someone else happy.. or elated, its why i like being around kids (even though i often say i dont).. because theyre simple and easy to make laugh. Also i realized you answered some of these things later on too, including my thought on my own ethics being a result of this, i have very strict ethical and moral guidelines.. I dont cheat.. i dont lie (unless i am telling someone that is interrogating me or accusing me of doing something when i haven't, making a false confession.), i dont use violence unless violence is used on me first, and it s a very black and white thing for me.. and i apply it even to myself and in the event of having fallen short of my own standards, i feel a sense of guilt and shame about it.
It is. The narcissist side emerges only under extreme stress. Many protective elements of the NPD pathology are missing (like lack of empathy and no access to positive emotions).
@@samvaknin I may be a CB who left the shy, quiet b after 20 years and entered into a relationship with a Covert Narcissist - which rollercoasted me into a world of learning and reorienting. After lovebomb, devalue, discard, and a succesful hoover I found myself unable to reconnect, but in the relationship nevertheless due to my reaction to discard, which I misunderstood to be because of love vs trauma bond. I have observed and understand him to be a narcissist now and recognize the sexual incompatibility and the intellectual incompatibility. I like how you explained their feign pining because he seems to be appeasing certain things but it feels so fake and I suspect mulitple affairs. I try to understand how I was with the other man for 20 years because he had a mean side, but not narcisstic - he may be a shy, quiet borderline - INTJ.
After watching this video I think I might be a covert borderline. I have been in a 14 year relationship with my wife who was diagnosed 12 years ago with bpd/npd/histrionic. I hope to understand more about this dynamic and hope you someday can make a video for this particular relationship unless you think it would be the same as in this video.
I suspect i am a covert narcissist but there were stressful times where i was overt. Is this logical? I got mortified 5-10 times in my life and im 18 years old
Could the Covert Borderline in the rational self-observation sense believe that the activism or passionate efforts towards a good cause that arise from personal experience and observation of the unmet needs of others to be even more sincere in terms of residing moreso within the realm of sympathy than empathy? Given that those altruisms lie on a continuum, perhaps the C-BPD individuals are aware that their altruism is somewhat self-serving and grandiose but “fake it till they make it”? I ask because I observe their ability to sustain and produce genuine attachment to the cause, whatever it may be, over time. They do not get bored with the causes that they care about. This harkens back to your point about manufacturing a good object. That same internal locus of control, combined with a sense of agency, could cause the C-BPD to pseudosubliminate their way to accomplishment of positive goals for themselves and others. But, other than propping up their core wounds, would they ever truly be happy or simply play along? Essentially, my question is, How would a C-BPD individual truly sublimate their need for ideal love in a satisfying and stable outcome? To me, it is a fantasy doomed to fail due to intermittent reality checking and people pleasing habits. Thank you for a thought-provoking lecture.
Sam, this sounds like my current relationship. However I cannot decide if I'm a NPD or a Covert BPD, Oor just suffering from CPTSD or AVPD. I feel like I'm in hell, the UK has terrible mental health practitioners. I just want to find out what is affecting my life, what would be a good route for me to try and get diagnosed? I actually think your CBPD sounds like me, but also AVPD sounds like me to. Om on the verge of calling the Samaritans at this point.
A lot of comments from women…unless you’re referring to a male in the above scenario then this video may not apply to you. The “covert bpd” is largely attributed to male with bpd. In the video the examples he intentionally uses the “He”pronoun to Highlight that in this scenario the covert narc is the male. If you’re a student of Sam Vaknin’s YT then you’ll notice in most other scenarios the pronouns are interchangeable but with covert bpd he references only the male.
I’m starting to think I could possibly be a convert borderline male and I’m really trying to figure out if my last partner of 5 years was a convert narc or classical borderline…. Holy wow…
Prof Vaknin I've been looking for your videos on counter dependency and found a couple, but there are no videos on healing for counterdependent, so my question is is healing, treatment same as for codependent or is it different?
Please, Professor Sam Vaknin, I am a covert borderline and I was in a relationship with a shy and covert narcissist. I suddenly turned against him and felt that my feelings were disappearing and I began to see the world without colors - fog - and there was a war between us and we separated after he distorted my reputation, but today we met at the university and he kept looking at me from afar and I felt like. I still love him very, very much... Is he still waiting for me to come back?
@Shams_Hussam99 you can't do that to yourself please! From everything I have read (which is a lot) you CAN heal from this disorder in a pretty major way. But out of all the success stories I have seen or read about there wasn't a single one that happened while in a toxic relationship with a narcissist. Stay strong
This was my relationship exactly. When he started to be passive aggressive and was giving me the silent treatment, I gave it right back. Then he would beg me to talk to him. It was so toxic. It was like that one relationship brought out the worst in me.
Same here. She was fucked up in the head. The only thing she had going for her was her looks. This was our exact relationship word for word
Same here! Her looks were what trapped me. Everything else was extremely toxic and brought out the worst in me. She was a beauty tho…I’ll give her that!
This dude is a straight up G, and G is for genius. Thank God he's on this earth.
This is worth thousands of dollars 💵
True .. I learned so much over the years
Sam this is spot on. This is me and my husband. I left him a year ago with our 3 beautiful babies in tow. When we met we were both living in Las Vegas. I was a Marilyn Monroe impersonator. He was a simple man, or so I thought. I 100% married him for love. I have always been obsessed with true love. I thought this was it. The man tried to steal my confidence. He tried to take my personality and claim it as his own. He triangulated me against all of my friends, all of his friends. He wanted to rip my very hood reputation away from me. He took my light for quite some time. He did it all. He was evil I can’t even describe.
After watching this I absolutely know that I’m a covert borderline. I knew something was up with me but I never felt I fully fit into a narcissist category. Didn’t fully fit into a borderline category. I had a therapist for a few months. We came to a conclusion that I am borderline borderline. I never knew about this covert borderline. I have too much confidence, but not enough confidence in my opinion. I will put myself out there. But I carry a lot of deep sadness. I was an orphan. I had a crazy intense childhood and life altogether. I mean well. I always mean well. Sometimes I fail morality wise. I forgive myself. I do truly love myself. I’ve overcome every mothereffing thing that has come my way. I always win. But I always feel slightly suicidal. I wouldn’t actually do it.
I left. I have to give my babies everything I never had. 🙏
Love you Mr Vaknin! 🌻
Wow! You are not alone. Your words describe me perfectly. Hang in there. Better life is still to come!
That’s my inner landscape
❤
While my life is horrible i really enjoy these videos because it helps me understand. Not enough psychiatrists or therapists understand or can explain it so well like this in my experience.
Omg!! I always thought I had narcissitic tendancies but I have emotions & love so was confused. Now I think I'm a covert borderline. I think this is why if someone does me wrong, I'm not able to walk away & need to hold them accountable, the narcissistic side comes out & my 'empathy' detaches.
When you said the covert borderline is like a scientist! That’s exactly how it felt! Also our ability to rationalize and make the narcissist feel ok about themselves! Once I stopped doing that for him it was war. He hated me. Now he treats me like a cousin or something. He’s in Las Vegas doing petty crimes.. being ridiculous. He video chats with our children daily. It’s all weird.
My mother is a Narcissist and I have BPD. It took me until my mid 30's to even see what was going on. I believe we are their favorite prey.
it's called a dance macabre, an endless dance in "hell" of the narcissist and the borderline. I think from what i've seen that borderline is almost a natural defence against a narcissist. It is psychologically a failed narcissist. But even if healthy you would start to be borderline a little or narcissistic as natural defence with a narcissist. Narcissists really are attracted to borderlines, they mirror their "dead" mother. And the dance continues until someone switches the beat and thinks, i won't raise my children that way. Borderline heal or do get better quite a lot, even though it probably is the more difficult and intense route. Emotions are there to heal also not only misguide you. They are telling you something. Bordeline is a type of ptsd i would think even more than narcissism, i think Dr Vaknin recently said that narcissism might even be a type of decision. There probably was a trigger early in npd but it's a more efficient defence against anxiety than borderline. Borderline can heal, because what is life without true emotions, grey. Life is full spectrum the borderline simply is overwhelmed by it.
I think I have borderline too
Took me 37 years
Me too.
Same. I’m the golden child turned scapegoat. Nobody will ever understand except us.
@@XOChristianaNicole I really can relate
As older child in family I always had to sacrifice for my sister and for mother too ( you have to live them right ?)
So it developed through years and after divorce I found that my family has bad dynamics so I moved away ( took care of dad after he had stroke at 52 and I think we both were punching bags and I didn’t want to repeat his fate)
They blamed me but I asked if they can stop spreading all of our communication aside from CA relatives but they didn’t respond
They always had things their way which opened my eyes
My father and I are pure covert borderlines. I had so much misunderstanding until I found that diagnosis in your videos. It explains everything even in details.
And the couple you’ve described in that video are my parents.
Thank you for your work!
You came in a time where my covert narcissist blocked me on all social media because he couldn’t make the shared fantasy come to fruition. So like a coward, he ghosted me. It hurts so bad because I did love him even with his flaws. You’re more help than any of my friends or relatives.
It's a endless loop the same will happen to the next person again. It hurts now but in the end did you a favor not to stick around, you don't want to be treated that way and ghosting aka silent treatment is a coward's way (it's like psychologically killing you, because you feel as if you don't exist. Very ugly).... "Real" people talk things out and understand that ending a relationship will hurt the partner so try to be empathetic when ending a relationship. You are here and see what really happened, fantasy is the contrary of reality and not worth the price of a true caring partner, reality will always intrude on a fantasy. You will love again, see it maybe as losing innocence and an experience rather than true love.
This is my parents relationship exactly. It’s hell to grow up seeing so much discontent and a pair so ill-matched. She should have divorced ages ago but my narcissistic mom needed to uphold the fantasy, at least on the surface level, and my dad needed to keep hoping for change. It’s tragic and mournful.
Same for mine
She triggered him a lot ; emotion swings
He was good honest man - my mother opposite- cunning and manipulative
You have described me and my wife precisely...our relationship followed the exact arc you describe. I had goosebumps because what you were saying just landed with such heavy truth. Thank you for the energy and resource you put into sharing your wisdom and insight. It has been a positive and reliable light to turn to in darkness.
Prof Vaknin, an absolutely brilliant description of the covert borderline and covert narcissist. 🎉 It makes so much sense. Also, the fact that the covert borderline transforms her bad inner object into a good one is so true. The vapid, flimsy, intellect of the covert narcissist that the covert borderline tries to compensate by giving advices, solutions and explanations is finally explained. Your channel is the best, no other “expert” goes down to that level of finesse and depth when describing these two types. Congratulations and also all my gratefulness.
This man is the truth! There is no one like him
I have never felt so understood
Let's get in touch..
Exactly like my best friend from a few years ago. He wanted true love from me so badly but always hid it (we're gay). Eventually erupted after two years and smeared me and made me lose my job. A confident and "altruistic" person on the surface, but deeply sensitive and vengeful inside. He was very good at pretending to like the things I liked. That made us quickly became very close. But he was always looking for something more. Absolutely a covert borderline.
THAT has just described my 20 year relationship as though you were there on a daily basis. I will also say that everything I saw and said to my covert narc has been vindicated by your 100% accurate analysis. It feels good to have full understanding.
Epic. I have been glued to every word (with frequent raised eye brows and alarmed wide eyes). 🙏
Well there is my last 15 years in an hour long video.
Dammmnnnnn man. Brutal
Hahaha😂😂😂 I know right!?
This should be mandatory taught to every future psychiatrist🙌
Let's get in touch..
The ending! I always did say that he was a great storyteller! And that is why I fell in love with him lol! What a joke. How is this so very accurate? Sam! You did it again. You changed my life! Again! Not the first time. I can go on living now. Now that you confirmed what I already know. That we are not/ were not and never will be compatible. It’s ok! I am ok. Maybe one day I will find that love I seek! Truth is I found it with my children! Just like you said. Just like I always knew I would. 🧡👩🏼👦🏻👩🏼🦱👧🏻🧡
I am astounded. I can’t believe that other people have experienced this. In my own world, ive never even heard of anything like it apart from in my own disastrous life.
She may have been a covert narcissist, I am bpd and likely covert. 3 years that went exactly how you stated. I enjoyed being able to feel what ive been seeking, even if it was illegitimate. We’re finally parting ways, tons of damages were dealt and countless invaluable lessons about myself and my disorder were learned.
Exact same here. Glad we both made it out alive. Stay strong. How do I still have love for a reptile?
Mr. Vaknin, you are just blowing up this world. Thank you so much for all you do. The information you provide (and it is for free^^) is priceless. The words cannot express how grateful I am for all your videos.
Let's get in touch..
Very Gifted… it amazes me how you can describe these conditions completely spot on!
Let's get in touch..
Absolutely !
@@Whatap-prof_sam__1 Absolutely!
Omg I am the covert borderline! He is the covert Narcy!! Wow!! I need to watch this again.
Thank you so much Dr. Vaknin for this video that will help me stop focusing on my ex. narcissist (male), and start focusing on myself, the covert borderline (female). Would you eventually make a video about the type of children these two will bring to the world?
This is amazing. You have just described my last relationship. My therapist couldn't make up his mind wheather I was a borderline or ADHD with BPD trades. Now it seems to me that i might be a covert BPD 😮
I have watched hundreds of hours of professor Vaknin's content and yet this video is the one I keep coming back to every time my ex narc hoovers. It's as if professor Vaknin watched my entire relationship with my ex unfold and made this video based on it. I fit the description of covert borderline really well (though official dx is cptsd) and my ex parter was a female covert narcissist. This video gives me chills down my spine because it matches everything that went down in my past relationship down to every single detail. Be honest, professor Vaknin, are you spying on us? :)
This is incredible Prof Vaknin. It describes the trauma bonded fantasy I shared with an intimate partner in almost perfect detail. I think I need to watch this a few more times.
Knew my ex is a covert narcissist but had no idea that I myself had been displaying so many of these "covert borderline" tendencies in the relationship. Hadn't even heard of the term before, always thought there was no way I could possibly be borderline... not so sure now.
watching these videos i feel like i'm listening to someone patiently explain the different character classes of a very complicated roleplaying game
Great Job! The accuracy is scary!
You have just described mine (as covert borderline) and my grandma’s (covert narcissist) relationship.
How I wish I would have known this many years ago so I could have gotten away from her.
Phenomenal lecture, i've been waiting for the description of this exact combo of covert npd/covert bpd. I'm the covert npd side and have always been finding covert bpd's as partners because i unconsciously dont't like typical bpd's as i find them too selfless/clingy and unstable and overt npds are too arrogant and unpleasant to be around. So it seems that covert bpd is a perfect match (not so) because just like Sam mentioned there is so little in common between me and a covert bpd partner, i've always felt misunderstood and accused of all the problems in a relationship (although now i realise that i was uninvested and aloof in the relationship and mostly did nothing and invested nothing). We both wanted the relationship to work so badly but the outcome was inevitable i guess... completely different views of a relationship, kinda sick in different ways from both of us but sadly in a collapsed state i now realise that my behaviour was totally delusional and inadequate and probably i could've done a lot of things differently but i simply couldn't resist my disordered nature at the moment. Funny enough but cBPD was the drama queen in the relationship not me, i simply wanted us to freeze forever and live in this enmeshed but distant fantasy where i would be left alone until i wanted some supply and fun with my partner.
I'm the cbpd partner... And you just described my relationship with my cnpd partner... Tho our relationship lasted not so long since I couldn't stand his mind games... But I did love him really deeply and let him now. Would you say there's any feelings towards the cptsd partner from your side? Anything from your part was real (as it can be)? Just curious... I'm still trying to reconciliate these mixed feelings since it hasn't been long ago, he already discarded me and is already looking for a new supply
@@wzlkk3ghlf091 Sorry for the late response, for some reason i don't recieve notifications on youtube.. I'd be very careful taking other people's advices here because 99% of diagnoses here are self-made and our life experiences can differ a lot. But in my case i did experience "love" at least that was my definition of love. I suffered after the break up a lot and grieved her (prob more 4S's than a person at first and there was mostly rage/wish to undermine her in first months).
As Sam mentioned, during the relationship i indeed felt a lot of jealousy for her as she was much more capable of life and experienced/successful than me and didn't hesitate to point me at that issue, i'm a very Big Lebowski type of guy (but good looking and was raised with a golden spoon in my mouth yet still became a true failure in life - she helped with that too btw i was too busy managing her crazy-making behaviour rather my education and job for 7 years, yet now i realize thats why i picked her in the first place, not because i wanted her to be a nice gf/spouse) it triggered her badly and she did almost everything to change my attitude in life (i.e. made me a resume, passed some exams for me etc) but i just didn't care then.. Now i kinda grateful for everything she did but still i realize it was done mostly for her benefit (she tried to match me up with her idea of a perfect partner - she didn't care about "real me".. if that even exists) and i'm not even mentioning other crazy stuff she did, the typical decompensation behaviour of the borderline that i can't forgive her for and ever let her back.
So back to your question - it kinda was very important to me but in utilitarian way, in my mind i really loved and cared for her but in reality it rarely materialized into action, i was dismissive and passive, mostly netflix-s*x chill was important for me, it's funny to me now how invested ("cathected") i was into her then. i almost believed my own readiness to have children with her/live together etc... thank God i never made it happen, my life would've likely been even worse now.
In my case i was discarded (im a cnpd as i believe it now) and she moved on even before the actual discard i believe, then tried all npd stuff online like posting her new bf everywhere and publicly doing stuff we used to do together but with him to make me suffer, now her new relationship failed miserably and she rarely covertly tries to attract my attention via social media. I find it funny and cringey and i hate her guts so i just expect to totally ignore her for the rest of my life, hopefully one day i won't even remember about that relationship, it already doesn't bother nearly me as much as it used before (it's been 2.5 years since the break up). The whole situation made me open my eyes and live in a painful reality rather than joyful imagination, helps a lot actually, i got rid of a lot of fake ppl in life since then and can see myself more objectively now.
Hope it helps. Btw did you try any social media mind games with your ex/would like him to make a move towards you again? I'm really curious now cuz i've never chatted with a supposedly cbpd in those 2.5 years and your perspective might be insideful.
@@wzlkk3ghlf091 probably youtube deleted my comment for some reason, can't see it here, thankfully it was saved - posting it again without a questionable word.
Sorry for the late response, for some reason i don't recieve notifications on youtube.. I'd be very careful taking other people's advices here because 99% of diagnoses here are self-made and our life experiences can differ a lot. But in my case i did experience "love" at least that was my definition of love. I suffered after the break up a lot and grieved her (prob more 4S's than a person at first and there was mostly rage/wish to undermine her in the first months).
As Sam mentioned, during the relationship i indeed felt a lot of jealousy with her as she was much more capable of life and experienced/successful than me and didn't hesitate to point me at that issue, i'm a very Big Lebowski type of guy (but good looking and was raised with a golden spoon in my mouth yet still became a true failure in life - she helped with that too btw i was too busy managing her crazy-making behaviour rather than my education and job for 7 years, yet now i realize thats why i picked her in the first place, not because i wanted her to be a nice gf/spouse) it triggered her badly and she (rather agressively) did almost everything to change my attitude in life (i.e. made me a resume, passed some exams for me, given pieces of advice etc) but i just didn't care then..
Now i kinda grateful for everything she did but still i realize it was done mostly for her benefit (she tried to match me up with her idea of a perfect partner - she didn't care about "real me".. if that even exists) and i'm not even mentioning other crazy stuff she did, the typical decompensation behaviour of the borderline that i can't forgive her for and ever let her back.
So back to your question - it kinda was very important to me but in utilitarian way, in my mind i really loved and cared for her but in reality it rarely materialized into action, i was dismissive and passive, mostly netflix and chill with her was important for me, it's funny to me now how invested ("cathected") i was into her then. i almost believed my own readiness to have children with her/live together etc... thank God i never made it happen, my life would've likely been even worse now.
In my case i was discarded (im a cnpd as i believe now) and she moved on even before the actual discard i believe, then tried all npd stuff online like posting her new bf everywhere and publicly doing stuff we used to do together but with him to make me suffer, now her new relationship failed miserably and she rarely covertly tries to attract my attention via social media. I find it funny and cringey and i hate her guts so i just expect to totally ignore her for the rest of my life, hopefully one day i won't even remember about that relationship, it already doesn't bother nearly me as much as it used before (it's been 2.5 years since the break up). The whole situation made me open my eyes and live in a painful reality rather than joyful imagination, helps a lot actually, i got rid of a lot of fake ppl in life since then and can see myself more objectively now.
Hope it helps. Btw did you try any social media mind games with your ex/would like him to make a move towards you again? I'm really curious now cuz i've never chatted with a supposedly cbpd in those 2.5 years and your perspective might be insideful.
Excellent as always. As a psychologist and borderline I am so happy to have found your content, it’s the only thing so far I have found useful. You are adding so much to the field.
Would you consider making one of the videos in this series on the relationship between covert and classic borderline? And/or both classic borderline?
Yes.
Wow! i just discover I am a covert borderline. You have explained so well my relationship with a covert narcissist. I am blown away! And yes, I got bored...🙂
Let's get in touch..
Extremely educative. Thank you Sir!
Let's get in touch..
My dad had covert borderline and he loved us children very much
After he died I felt like I lost mom
Mother has covert narcissism- so victimizing now so makes me sick with her demands
My sister is narcissistic and they are are coupled
How deep! Full of context and logic paths 🙏🌠💯 increadible, you are Genious!
Once again Sam nails it. I'm diagnosed BPD but symptoms have subsided w/DBT and age.
Me and my ex-husband. What a nightmare. I am a covert borderline? Ugh.
Time for you to write another book Professor Vaknin.
Dude you’re a star 🌟 helped me understand a lot. Thanks 🙏
I would have written an email, but I figured this is probably the best chance to be seen by someone who can help. I apologize for its length. No one else will understand in my physical life and I am a narcissist after all.
I ended a relationship that seemed like romantic nightmare about a week ago. Everything in my "being" had told me to stay out of this relationship but yet I still avoided those thoughts to try to make it work. A couple months over one year of getting triggered by passive aggressive behavior, put-downs, horribly bad moods and triggering my partners shame with criticism of this behavior, which she either had no recollection of or spun it into a “joke”, I felt as if my "soul" was starting to leave my body. I was constantly worried she was doing something strange, I didn't trust her. Why I stayed I couldn’t say at the time. I knew nothing then of what I know now
I no longer had interest in almost anything I had liked before the relationship. I stopped listening to certain genres of music I enjoyed because she didn't enjoy them(music has always been important to me, two narcissists playing car disc jockey is a nightmare). I stopped hanging with family and my few close friends, not only because I had my time occupied with her but I had actually had no desire to at the time, and I slowly started have a horrible attitude towards everyone else. After every problem, I tried to change how I would operate so it did not happen again(I had a problem with her only wanting to hang out with guy friends, I gave in, saw the childish aspect and let it go, toning down vulgarity, toning down jokes, things of that nature). My ability to change was the one of the only things she said anything positive towards. But it seemed as though she really felt as if she didn't need to look into herself at all.(I actively go to therapy, quit drinking about 5 years ago, now I know from watching these lectures that there was/is much more than alcoholism happening, time to look elsewhere for therapy.)
I was feeling so horrible in this relationship, I definitely started to discard her in my mind, I wanted out and didn’t know how. I can now literally tell when I was fighting approach/avoidance. While she was away visiting family, she had no signal to her cellphone, I had a long time to think, a long time to hang with friends again, and a realization hit me. These people have always accepted me always for who I was, we were having a great time together, and I had been spending a long time not being accepted, hating myself for it. When she had seen me for the first time upon arriving back in America her face was that usual face she has when first gazes upon me, almost as if she was disappointed by my presence, hurts me every time too. But the time we had was fabulous, there was nothing sexual, we cuddled all night and my doubts about the relationship vanished for a moment, but I could not help but notice her speech towards me was very reminiscent of someone trying to talk to a person they just met. Afterwards, I asked her why she was being so nice to me. Her answer was along the lines of “seeing other happy couples and wanting it”, which she rephrased to “I saw happy couples and it made me want to treat you better”. Of course I was hurt by such a substance-less reason to fix our relationship and made it known as I usually did with my grievances, which I now know why I constantly do, it is too much. I asked her about our very long kiss we had before she went off on her trip. She says she doesn’t even remember this. Again causing an even heavier consideration to end things. Now I really can’t even trust the trip was what she said it was.
The straw on the back was when she greeted one of my good long time friends with a painfully groaned "hi" after he greeted with her with ecstatic enthusiasm. We were all in a great mood but she blamed a stomach ache this time for the attitude. While the behavior from anyone else would have been just fine, this was one time too many and she had just returned from a vacation. I broke out of the fantasy I was pulled back into the previous day and provided her with an ultimatum(on the phone and in private of course). I wanted her to go to therapy for her what seemed like never ending depression either by herself or with me and that I could not see her until she does so. I could not allow myself to see her physically because bad aspects would always seem to vanish. She only agreed to do it because I was leaving, otherwise she made it known that she thinks she needs no type of recovery from any trauma(she had a physically abusive ex who overdosed before me she wouldn't stop comparing me to, I am also convinced she has childhood trauma she does not like discussing, she suffered a psychotic break during covid when her grandfather died, I now believe that is the person who started her shame). During the wait for her first scheduled session my brain went into overdrive trying to figure out why I behaved the way I behaved. I have a stable job, and a stable place to live, financially I am good, though this relationship has definitely rocked the boat, I can still function in society, but I have behaved very badly in the past.
This was my first "serious" relationship since I stopped drinking but I didn't need alcohol this time to destroy myself and others. My only other long relationship started when I was barely 20 and “lasted” until 28. I had no experience, so I got to research, eventually ending up here with the professors videos. I started to listen to this video and sat in absolute horror as the professor described my entire relationship(and previous) as if he was a fly on the wall, even getting the "he" and "she" correct. The reason for my brutal honesty, affinity to not be affiliated with groups or labels, and the reason for my many hobbies were explained to me. After 33 years my entire life had unlocked, this had explained so much that has happened to me. My fantastical side thanked my now ex for my “awakening”, and I realized my recovery is most likely never going to end, and that is okay. I have taken the professors advice and have isolated. I will not be entirely isolated as I do have very good friends and family in my life who have been there through my worst and have seen a change after I stopped abusing alcohol. I will not hurt people anymore including the person I was seeing, knowing what I know now I had to end things fully with her regardless of her going to therapy. She does not want to understand how we feed off of each other. She said I broke her heart, I’m not sure if that is true. I’m most likely not on her mind, I texted her to just see if she was okay after going silent after the break up, she texted back as if nothing was wrong. I will try to let go. This was a long winded intro to the following questions. Whoever can help, anyone who has been or who is in this situation, anyone with knowledge or if I’m lucky the professor himself. I thank you for your time.
Are my happy feelings of relief and being more confident in myself the result of completing the 7 phase? Or am I just relieved that I can finally be myself again and I am done with this tumultuous depressive relationship? Maybe even both? I know these feelings of “awakening” and “I know myself” must also come from this recent discovery of me being a borderline candidate which complicates how I feel about the thoughts themselves. I contacted everyone who has ever accepted me for who I was and told them they are appreciated and I love them. I thought it was me appreciating those who have shown me love because I had just been through something where I hadn’t been accepted no matter what I did. But after hearing a few lectures, Is this "love" and “acceptance” of myself and others a result of my faux-individuation? My feelings of happiness also derive from me being promoted at my job one day after the breakup. Maybe I am feeling all of this simultaneously. I truly do value those who have saw the potential in me. I want to change and have been trying for quite some time, and I thought I was better equipped until this relationship. I want to have confidence in myself but its hard to tell if its narcissism or confidence right now. I know I have all bad me/all good mom split. This explains the countless times why I complained about no one loving me when was a child. No professional my mother brought me to ever said anything close to this.
How does a self aware "recovering" narcissist even recover? Is recovery even possible? What would be the daily mental obstacles a possible changing narcissist must face? How do I solidify my good object if I have one?(I’m guessing mine is self created if it is a functioning good object) Will a “savior” type career suit a certain type of narcissist well and scratch their itch? Creativity in various art forms and a belief of a “higher power” works well for me and now I know why, learning about external and internal objects. I will continue to use my fantasy defense because apparently I make up my own rules in life and honestly its very true. Haha. I apologize if I missed any information that has already been covered. Thank you for anyone who has taken the time to read this ramble. No one else will understand in my current life. I usually never comment but this is important to me. I want to stop hurting myself and others and will isolate(especially romantically) as much as possible until I can do so. I am absolutely not saying I did not engage in my share of toxicity. But I am absolutely certain I want it to stop. Thank you for your knowledge Professor Vaknin.
With much fantastical and grandiose love,
-Borderline Candidate
Oh my God ! Oh my God ! Oh my God ❤
Thank you so much Prof. Vaknin. That is exactly the topic i was wishing! 👊👏❤
Prof Vaknin,
Thank you for this. I've been studying & researching for weeks trying to makes some sense out of my recently ended relationship, & to better understand myself in relationships.
You have detailed my entire 1.5yr relationship expressly & as accurately as if you had watched our movie.
She: CN
Me: CB
I wish that sharing this w her or her family could help her, but I cannot imagine that it would or could.
You have helped me a great deal.
So, how does a CB improve & grow beyond this state?
Goddamn. Thank you.
Just wow! You really opened my eyes!!!
Let's get in touch..
Yet another extremely helpful video which I can fully relate to, even though I've never heard the term covert borderline before. I have often asked myself how I survived childhood and this would appear to explain how, plus it highlights the dynamic of my relationship with my covert narcissist ex husband. Will need to listen again (and possibly again) and process properly before I self diagnose tho haha.
How is it that you told everything about my sister's husband (covert narcissist). Every single thing is true there. Unbelievable...
And on the same time i myself happened to seem like a covert borderline in my marriage with my ex husband who mostly acted like an overt narc, rarely like a covert one.
Is it also possible for this scenario you described to be between covert borderline and overt narcissist?
And if a covert narcissist (man) acts exactly like you mentioned can his partner be a someone else than a covert borderline? His behavior will hardly change with abother type of person?
Lots of respect for your channel, your contribution!
Your interview with Iranian singer is miraculous, cant forget it)
This explains why my mother is hellbent on taking my kids from me. It's her vindication for failing as a mother...now, she wants a redo with my kids and projects her bad motherness onto me so that she can feel better about herself. It's creepy as hell. I wish she would go away.
Resonates very much.
So exquisitely accurate analysis
Brilliant!
Thank you so much Dear Professor Sam Vaknin ❤
this is exactly the dynamics of me and my ex girlfriend. I'm a male Covert BPD and she's a Covert narcissist as far as I'm concerned. RN we live normally as friends tho, it's because we both study psychology and did our best to be healthy for each other..
❤ Thank you again Doc.
Let's get in touch..
@@Whatap-prof_sam__1 I would love that.
bot bot bot
Sad story... my family’s personal case on 99%, sad to realise that I’ve been hooked on that and now we are 10 years in marriage. Perhaps it was necessary to meet her in order to escape from my psychopathic parents.
Was listening till the end and forgot I have dinner ready on the table. Thanks for the video, I emailed you but nobody replied..
Amazing. You clever man. Thank you
You described almost perfectly the relationship my parents had and still have. What could possibly be the outcome of this relationship regarding me and my brother as a result? Thank you so much for all the mind-blowing insight you providet!
Covert Narcissist and Quiet broderline - odd couple, that'd be a good video I'd like to see. Thanks prof
No such thing as quiet borderline. It is online nonsense. Search the BPD playlist.
Wow, I am speechless. This described my last relationship and my ex partner and I EXACTLY.
Same
In the middle when you talk about what I did wrong :( I did criticize him. But he was terrible. I gave him unwavering support… but he messed up too many times. And he was out having fun without me! And that’s a no no for me. How dare he leave me out of his life and adventures. While I was at home with the babies. And I needed a break every once in a while. Yes I over analyzed it all. I went and had my own “adventures” and I mortified him. And then he plotted revenge. It was all like sone sort of lifetime movie. I need therapy. Please send me recommendations!! Help me out friend.
Narcissist will NEVER watch this channel, trust me
Why? Lol
I'm one and I watched like 90% of stuff here lol
Here,trying to be better person
Thank you
Let's get in touch...
He is gun, she is gun, they are gun
Gun with the wind
I just love how he says this
😂😂😂
@sam vaknin. Can narcisssists be cowards? I have been punished by my boyfriend or now ex, by being blocked from everything on his phone. He couldn’t even tell me we are over. I have written numerous emails and nothing. In the past emails worked but now no reply. I decided to give up. Would like to know if narcissist also suffer from cowardice.
Yes. Narcissists are cowardly bullies.
professor, I beg you
please create a video about relationship between a covert borderline man and a classic borderline woman with strong narcissistic traits, 🙏🙏🙏
Search the channel for “odd couple”.
Wow.
I wonder, is a borderline or a covert borderline capable of getting his own emotions under control?
I see a lot of the things you describe with the covert borderline within myself and in my history of relationships. With the small exception that i worked for more than a decade to get my emotions under control.. and to some extent i was successful in that. And i managed to overcome my own negative self image when i was in my early 20s by producing evidence in my own defense by virtue of my successess in life. Improving health and fitness, financial stability and even my relationship with my family members.
I am also very prone to giving and wanting to provide. Im not so much interested in personal gain, so much that i just want to see someone else happy.. or elated, its why i like being around kids (even though i often say i dont).. because theyre simple and easy to make laugh.
Also i realized you answered some of these things later on too, including my thought on my own ethics being a result of this, i have very strict ethical and moral guidelines.. I dont cheat.. i dont lie (unless i am telling someone that is interrogating me or accusing me of doing something when i haven't, making a false confession.), i dont use violence unless violence is used on me first, and it s a very black and white thing for me.. and i apply it even to myself and in the event of having fallen short of my own standards, i feel a sense of guilt and shame about it.
Watch the covert borderline playlist.
Dr, Vankin, what book would you recommend to learn about coverborneline?
Vaknin. Covert borderline is a new diagnosis that I propose. There are no books about it yet.
How would be the relation between 2 covert borderline ?
Unlikely to happen. Watch the videos on odd couples in this channel.
How would a covert borderline react if he becomes in touch with his bad object?
The way a narcissist would: dysregulation, self-mortification (watch the video I will be uploading tomorrow).
Would the covert borderline become a classic borderline then, if they are able to make it out alive and accompanied by intensive therapy?
So, in this case, a borderline is not a failed narcissist. Dear doc?
It is. The narcissist side emerges only under extreme stress. Many protective elements of the NPD pathology are missing (like lack of empathy and no access to positive emotions).
So who does the covert borderline best gets a long with? A Histrionic? A healthy person? Or themselves?
A "shy, quiet" borderline. Will talk about it in a future video.
@@samvaknin I may be a CB who left the shy, quiet b after 20 years and entered into a relationship with a Covert Narcissist - which rollercoasted me into a world of learning and reorienting. After lovebomb, devalue, discard, and a succesful hoover I found myself unable to reconnect, but in the relationship nevertheless due to my reaction to discard, which I misunderstood to be because of love vs trauma bond. I have observed and understand him to be a narcissist now and recognize the sexual incompatibility and the intellectual incompatibility. I like how you explained their feign pining because he seems to be appeasing certain things but it feels so fake and I suspect mulitple affairs. I try to understand how I was with the other man for 20 years because he had a mean side, but not narcisstic - he may be a shy, quiet borderline - INTJ.
After watching this video I think I might be a covert borderline. I have been in a 14 year relationship with my wife who was diagnosed 12 years ago with bpd/npd/histrionic. I hope to understand more about this dynamic and hope you someday can make a video for this particular relationship unless you think it would be the same as in this video.
I suspect i am a covert narcissist but there were stressful times where i was overt. Is this logical? I got mortified 5-10 times in my life and im 18 years old
Could the Covert Borderline in the rational self-observation sense believe that the activism or passionate efforts towards a good cause that arise from personal experience and observation of the unmet needs of others to be even more sincere in terms of residing moreso within the realm of sympathy than empathy? Given that those altruisms lie on a continuum, perhaps the C-BPD individuals are aware that their altruism is somewhat self-serving and grandiose but “fake it till they make it”? I ask because I observe their ability to sustain and produce genuine attachment to the cause, whatever it may be, over time. They do not get bored with the causes that they care about. This harkens back to your point about manufacturing a good object. That same internal locus of control, combined with a sense of agency, could cause the C-BPD to pseudosubliminate their way to accomplishment of positive goals for themselves and others. But, other than propping up their core wounds, would they ever truly be happy or simply play along? Essentially, my question is, How would a C-BPD individual truly sublimate their need for ideal love in a satisfying and stable outcome? To me, it is a fantasy doomed to fail due to intermittent reality checking and people pleasing habits. Thank you for a thought-provoking lecture.
Is it inevitable that the covert turns into a bad dead mother?
Covert borderline
No. Watch the covert borderline playlist.
This pair is sin city . Great lecture.
Holy shit
Are covert borderlines also histrionic because they seem similar? It would be good to understand how these two classifications differ or are similar.
Maybe it is time to watch the video.
Wow🙌
Let's get in touch...
Let's get in touch..
Most of watchers of this channel is actually covert boderline
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
The buffet! 😂
Sam, this sounds like my current relationship. However I cannot decide if I'm a NPD or a Covert BPD, Oor just suffering from CPTSD or AVPD.
I feel like I'm in hell, the UK has terrible mental health practitioners. I just want to find out what is affecting my life, what would be a good route for me to try and get diagnosed?
I actually think your CBPD sounds like me, but also AVPD sounds like me to.
Om on the verge of calling the Samaritans at this point.
Search the comorbidities playlist.
Pr Vaknin I ask you if a third person can do mortification to the narcissist or only the supply can do it
Only someone of significance to the narcissist.
A lot of comments from women…unless you’re referring to a male in the above scenario then this video may not apply to you. The “covert bpd” is largely attributed to male with bpd. In the video the examples he intentionally uses the “He”pronoun to Highlight that in this scenario the covert narc is the male. If you’re a student of Sam Vaknin’s YT then you’ll notice in most other scenarios the pronouns are interchangeable but with covert bpd he references only the male.
I’m starting to think I could possibly be a convert borderline male and I’m really trying to figure out if my last partner of 5 years was a convert narc or classical borderline…. Holy wow…
Covert, not convert.
Prof Vaknin I've been looking for your videos on counter dependency and found a couple, but there are no videos on healing for counterdependent, so my question is is healing, treatment same as for codependent or is it different?
Different. Counterdependents are closer to narcissists and psychopaths.
Hello Sam Vaknin, could the covert Boderline be a woman ?
Yes.
Please, Professor Sam Vaknin, I am a covert borderline and I was in a relationship with a shy and covert narcissist. I suddenly turned against him and felt that my feelings were disappearing and I began to see the world without colors - fog - and there was a war between us and we separated after he distorted my reputation, but today we met at the university and he kept looking at me from afar and I felt like. I still love him very, very much... Is he still waiting for me to come back?
@Shams_Hussam99 you can't do that to yourself please! From everything I have read (which is a lot) you CAN heal from this disorder in a pretty major way. But out of all the success stories I have seen or read about there wasn't a single one that happened while in a toxic relationship with a narcissist. Stay strong
What kind of job suitable for covert borderline?
watch the Covert Borderline playlist.
Would the covert narc push the covert borderline to violence?
Absolutely
Maybe it is time to watch the video.
@@samvaknin lol
Thank you Sam. If you are interested, I would be quite happy to add myself to your data base. Think about it. Surely you are familiar with Zoom.
What happens when there are children 😢
Search the From Child to Narcissist playlist.