Progressive vs. Evangelical: A Dialogue for Clarity
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- Опубликовано: 22 авг 2024
- What are the key differences between evangelical Christianity and Progressive Christianity? How do they uniquely approach key issues like the nature of Scripture, the person of Jesus, and relationships? In this video, I talk with pastor/author Colby Martin about these issues and more.
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I just want to give Colby a big hug after watching this. I was a progressive for 20 years and by the grace of God he brought me back to a historic Christian faith 2 years ago. 20 years of self idolatry and making God into an image I deemed worthy in regards to the worlds ever changing standards. It was exhausting and I have so much peace now that I’m back home. Praying that whatever you are seeking Colby - which ultimately is THE truth- you will find it. Good work Sean- always appreciate your approach and respect to those you may not agree with 👊🏾
May The Lord be praised!!!
Danielle Graves,
Sorry to hear - the so called historical Christian faith is an absolute disaster - filled with lies including mariolatry, papal authority, apostolic succession, transubstatiation, denial of the man Christ Jesus and all manner of filth and corruption.
I'm sorry to hear of this tragedy that's happened to your life - it may be that God will be gracious by reaching out to you and setting you free.... And restore you back to Christ.
@@greglogan7706 praying for you too Greg ❤️
@@jesusislord9447 all glory to God ❤️
I did almost the exact opposite and have found preachers, teachers and learned folks who are able to help guide me. I’m we are losing people from Jesus because of this type of hateful dogma and the inability to believe in change and science
Colby essentially said he's uncertain whether Jesus rose from the dead. That's a core tenet of the gospel, for if Jesus didn't resurrect it means He didn't defeat death nor atoned for our sins, leaving us without a hope of salvation. There is no point in being a Christian if you don't believe in the resurrection of Jesus.
Paul said as such.
Yeah I also noticed that too. I’m so used to knowing that Jesus conquered death that when Colby said it I couldn’t believe my ears. I thought my mind was playing tricks on me. So it’s shocking that he actually did said that 🤯
Goes to show that “progressive Christianity” is just luke warm Christians.
What I think is kind of odd is the list of things he did see as important to the movement from his perspective, (egalitarianism, LGBTQ issues, attitude towards science and the recognition of white supremacy) are very different from the issues I would see as most important (the meaning of the Deity of Christ and the confidence in the resurrection of Jesus); and I suspect Sean feels the same way.
I think actually if we are looking at where the two movements come from, it might be better to think about them as two different understandings of what is important. Some people lump themselves with "progressives" because they see the same things progressives do as important; some people lump themselves with "evangelicals" because they see the same things as important as evangelicals.
Some may have a "progressive" understanding of the four issues Colby highlighted but don't want to be called "progressive"; because they don't want to be lumped with Colby's views on the Trinity (which they see as more important).
Similarly, someone may agree fully with Sean on the Trinity and the Resurrection but they don't want to be called "evangelical" because they see solidarity on social justice issues as more important, and they see large parts of evangelicalism as undermining that.
Hearing Mr Colby, I feel for him, Jesus is like a good teacher who taught us how we should live. For him, Jesus' crucifixion sounds meaningless.
I grew up Roman Catholic but after studying the life of Jesus, I had to change to Evangelical. When we focus on what "we do" and we try to fix the world putting social justice as the most important thing a Christian should do, we are minimizing the atonement of Christ. Believing in Jesus' Death and Resurrection will unite us to Him through the Holy Spirit and will sanctify us. But all glory should be to God.
In other words, to put social justice as the center of Christianity is man centered and steals away the glory of Jesus. The center of Christianity is Jesus. Period
As a progressive Christian, I HOPE that Jesus bodily rose from the dead and that his grave was empty. Unfortunately, the evidence we have is not strong enough to establish that conclusion. I read lots of stuff from apologists such as William Lane Craig and Mike Licona and Sceptics such as Bart Ehrman etc. and I don't think that either side was able to reasonably prove that they are right.
By the way, I agree with Paul that if Jesus didn't rise from the dead, Christianity has no meaning so that I'd give up my hope if it could be shown that the resurrection never occurred.
As someone who was raised evangelical, became a part of the progressive movement, then had my eyes opened and turned away from progressive Christianity, I am so grateful for the Holy Spirit’s prompting. I am so thankful for the solid truth in scripture.
The “no boundaries” approach of progressive Christianity brought only confusion and unrest for me; not freedom.
Progressive Christianity makes use of Christ in a more effective way according to their own understanding. The problem is God never consented to this use and they have ignored everything He said even as they seize His Word to do violence to it. They then sit back and mock God's actual Word to humanity, just like the people at the foot of the cross. They think that they will stand in the judgment, they will not.
There are many grey scenarios and situations in daily life, but Jesus and his truth was NOT grey but black and white. A solid firm foundation!
AMEN
It's so sad we are created beings to worship the great I Am but we want to worship ourselves and things. God sent his son to redeem us to Him at Calvary all through Amazing Grace and Loving Mercy. We complicate it all but it all comes down to the Gospel Truth, we can choose Christ in total humility or reject Him, stop making God in our image but be transformed as Christ Jesus. In my own life the beautiful contentment, serenity and daily walk I now have after 32 years with Jesus has actually come from lots of suffering, hardship, loss and constant pain but through it all resounding gratitude and love for my Beloved Lord
Colby seems very confused, too. God is not a God of confusion, but of order. I’m grateful you left progressive Christianity. I hope Colby, too comes to the truth!
I wish more people could have honest and respectful conversations such as these 2 men. This was refreshing. Thanks for posting!
You’re welcome
What’s missing amongst us conservative Christians is grace. Sean displays grace here and so did his father to him. If people are questioning, be gracious and trust God for clarity. When we’re not being gracious, we respond in fear. That’s very destructive.
I don't think Paul was lacking grace and being destructive when he called the Galatians fools for listening to false teachers, the same false teachers he later says under inspiration of Holy Spirit he wishes would castrate themselves. Was Paul responding in fear? Possibly, but fear is not a bad thing, especially when the fear is false teachers leading the church astray. Sometimes, I believe the love and grace of God are defined Biblically and look very different than how our culture naturally wants to use these words.
We can point to the Holy Spirit but only the Holy Spirit can convict and change.
@@TKK0812 I get what you’re saying 100%. Don’t mistake my words for some modern, touchy-feely woke Christianity. I know that’s the loudest voice in social media. I’m only saying we can sometimes let fear rule our responses. I know I used to and still do - fear that the wrong sentiments will be heard and that I’m somehow responsible to change a person’s view. I like what @Scott Hix said - that’s the Holy Spirit’s job. Yes we have to call out false doctrine and error. But if you’re going to have a lengthy dialogue about it in public, I think Sean did this right. And again, I agree with you about that grace and love have to be defined Biblically. It always must include truth or our efforts are cruel in the long run.
@@rejoicingbones Thanks for the response, RB
@@TKK0812 Im glad you brought that up.
Thank you for this! I appreciate you Colby for coming on with Sean to discuss your ideas and beliefs. Thank you Sean for modeling what it looks like to have a respectful conversation with someone who does not agree with you. We need more of this! ❤️
Fullheartedly agree with this!
This is what it looks like to dialogue with someone that you disagree with, with grace - Great stuff Sean
Sean is really good at that.
I agree.
Glad someone is. I need more grace. I could hardly get through this interview.
Very well said. This is so refreshingly informative done in empathic and classy way. I learned a lot from these two gentleman not just about Christianity but how we should treat each other that disagree with our point of views.
@@johnayala2540 Indeed
Confusion is of the enemy. Pray for those who are deceived 🙏🏼
“For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.”
I Corinthians 14:33 NKJV
I am truly grateful for Mr. Martin being willing to come on here and speak! Mr. Martin, you said yourself that you miss the personal connection you had with God before you became progressive . . . that speaks volumes brother! Mr. McDowell wasn't just saying nice things, he was really speaking truth and I believe in my heart you heard it and were grabbed by it . . . let Jesus be your personal savior, Lord and friend again! You won't regret it.
Thinking exactly the same thing. Feels like he went to progressive belief hurt and wounded somehow... then he said something about his personal relationship with God and maybe that’s it. Praying for him to find his way back 😊
I was going to post a detailed comment, but yours was perfect.
I really enjoyed this open and honest conversation. Good to see two people actually listening to each other and being respectful.
Agreed
It would be honest if Colby shared all the mockery he has felt towards scripture and towards other believers. He cloaks himself in politeness, but this is not what he is in his private time. He condescends towards believers and the scripture, his humility is paper thin. Disingenuous behavior is the furthest thing from honesty.
This is why it's important we read our bibles brothers and sisters so we cannot be misled and test the spirits, but as Sean fantastically demonstrated we must listen with patience and grace. This means more than winning any intellectual argument with someone or showing how much you know theology. Most testimonies I've listened to when they've come to Christ is because of a particular Christians actions rather than their words. We should all pray for Colby that he finds his trust in Jesus again.
Well said!
My heart hurts for Colby. He wants to hold on to Jesus... but he is trying to hold on to the wrong Jesus. He’s clearly been hurt by people but still wants to hold on to his identity as a “Christian”. He is in this place of confusion and murkiness because he stumbles on his own idea of who God should be rather than believing Who God reveals Himself to be in both the OT and NT. He is trying to God in a box in a way that his mind and emotions can process. Pray for him. So appreciate how Sean navigated this interview with so much grace and reason.
I love both of these men. I see hurt and confusion in Colbys heart and eyes. I pray he continues his journey and doesn't give up on the true living Jesus . Truth does exist.
The sad part he is pastoring a church.
He’d change his mind quicker without condescending comments like these, right?
@@weirdwilliam8500 how is my comment condescending??
@@jesusistheway83 Clearly , you don’t understand my point because you’re secretly so insecure, hurt, and confused about your own beliefs.
See what I did there?
@@weirdwilliam8500 I see what you did there. But that is no where near what my comment was like. My comment was based out of love for God and love for both of these men. What is wrong with praying for their journey with Jesus, and after an hour plus hearing someone talk seeing hurt ?
I pray we all have compassion and understanding no matter what side we are on. I'm on Jesus's side.
Colby, THE LORD, taught us , "the way is narrow ...
Exactly! Meanwhile, Colby keeps going on about how they offer an open door to a "wide" variety of this and that. If ever there was a warning sign not to go that way.
....but not a tight rope.
Colby does bring up a good point about how we treat people, but as Sean right points out - what is that love based on. Which of course is The Truth. Be born again and begin a relationship with Christ, have good Theology (beliefs) and love the people in the Church and the lost.
It should be simple.
Lol you conservative christians are so hilarious. Its silly the way you guys think honestly.
@@isoakkfgy4462 You Scoffers are so sad
@@josephgabriele4428 its funny though. You claim to have a belief system based around love, yet your kind so quickly abuse/abandon those who question their faith
Thank you for this, Sean. This is a masterful example of how to dialogue with someone you disagree with.
Colby struggles answering simple questions with simple answers. That alone is a big sign
If you belong to the family regardless of your beliefs, then why do you need to ask questions regarding your beliefs? Colby martin contradicts himself in this interview multiple times. 19:05
Why?
@Xiaoran Meng
You listened to yourself rather than listened to Colby
I think what you see as "simple questions" he doesn't see as "simple," and that's fundamentally the difference between perspectives here. To Sean, truth seems more black and white and the only thing that matters at the end of the day is the intellectual question: are the claims true? To Colby, the truth of a belief is irrelevant if people are harmed by those telling it.
@@Anthony-pq4vr This.
Sean, your clarity explaining the truth is phenomenal! ✝️ My faith was built up just listening to you!✝️
Oh come on - all Sean did was regurgitate standard evangelical memes...how hard is that???? THAT built your faith??? That is NOT faith - that is just human efforts creating human tradition.
I think you have a LOT more capability than this.
@@greglogan7706 really?...LOL🤣
I am grateful to Sean McDowell for the invite of Colby Martin. Appreciate it. I lean in between liberal and Conservative Christianity so I love a balanced conversation that takes into consideration all points of view as I explore my relationship with Christ. In other words I love an honest conversation.
Me too. Glad it was helpful!
@@SeanMcDowell Dr. Sean McDowell, really enjoyed this interview found it very interesting. Especially amusing watching you bite your tongue when Colby Martin said things that I'm sure we're deliberately provocative!
I did want to pick you up on one point - when you described YEC believers ad having a warfare attitude towards science. That is unfair and inaccurate. Sure there's a fringe who are also flat earther anti vaxxers, but most YEC believers love science. I know many who are PhD scientists, I'm related to one.
A more accurate summary of a YEC view is that we disagree with the mainstream scientific community on the interpretation of certain aspects of scientific data. We believe their materialist worldview has lead them to interpret the data in a certain way, and that same data can actually interpreted differently. Keep up the good work!
Thank you, Sean, for talking to Colby. I honestly had never heard of him up until this video. I appreciated your conversation with him. I personally like how honestly open he is, yes it takes him a while to get an answer out but he's using wisdom to discern what the Gospel means to him. A lot of critics here I feel want the simple cut and dry, bumper sticker answers when we should allow room for grace.
You're doing amazing work, Sean. Keep it up. You're an extremely underrated apologist. Much of us greatly appreciate your work :)
I don't think Sean is underrated. I rate him very highly and always enjoy listening to his wisdom and kindness.
Great interview & discussion, Sean. You always show such respect for your guests & yet stand firm in your beliefs, which honors Christ. You always end with an open invitation for your guests to return & continue the dialogue. Looking forward for more conversations with Colby Martin & you. Blessings.
Sean, your questions are excellent!
Colby I respect your honesty in expressing your thoughts and ideas. I’m thinking the point of this is not to be happy or unhappy with your answers but to better understand your point of view. I appreciate your humility to express your thoughts with people that may not interpret Christianity in the same way. I value this honest dialogue between the two of you. I am so appreciative that Sean did this video. It is enlightening for all by the sharing of your ideas and beliefs. Much respect for the two of you to discover and ask questions distinctions between your basic beliefs.
@Vallerie Tollivar Refreshing to see someone think!
You are a blessing to your faith. It is refreshing to hear from somebody who is not judgmental, who knows that differences should be respected, and not denigrated or demeaned.
I needed this tonight. Sean, your conversation with Colby was a kinder version of the conversations I have in my head almost constantly, from both perspectives almost equally. I need to hear these conversations from other Christ-followers, other members of the body and bride of Christ, outside my own head. You're both great minds. Keep it up.
I think what sums it up for me in this video is that Colby couldn’t confidently affirm the literal resurrection of Jesus Christ
Exactly. So sad. So Very sad.
What is the literal resurrection? What does literal mean? Does it mean that the resurrection is a literary device? Did it occur in literature? Coming to think of it, what does mean, mean? What even enables us to see some dots of ink on some paper, and talk about it like this? And why those particular dots? What makes us able to do this and then "see" what has occured in the past? What is the past? We all take these things for granted, and assume we understand each other. And we're happy if someone simply says the same sort of sounds or write some dots in some pattern we are used to. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it can't work, but I am afraid taking it for granted is leading us down dangerous paths.
@@MortenBendiksen I think you need to clarify your post for those of us keeping score at home.
Why would you expect him to? He is a progressive, why expect him to believe the same thing that conservatives do about the resurrection? Sounds like you haven’t encountered much progressive theology...
@@aracelyemmett3493 What was unclear? It was mostly questions.
Colby has abandoned scripture and is just leaning on what he thinks.
🤪
He said something like, "that chapter was difficult for me..." talking about who/what God is. ... I couldn't help but think, "that's because you're just trying to make up what feels good to you!" 💔
@@LacyRipley that’s truly your conclusion? You can’t imagine any other reason why writing about the topic of God would be hard?? Oy vey...
Feels not thinks, I would venture to say.
And? What about that is bad?
Tremendous dialogue brother. It takes a great faith in God's sovereignty to have a graceful conversation like this ♡
I most say, I love the fact that the two of you can sit down and talk about these issues. Even more how you are doing it.
I am learning so much, both from your differences of opinion as wall as about the conduct in which you are engaging. Thank you both.
It must be hard and confusing being a progressive. Sean great questions. May The Lord bless the progressives and open their eyes, so that they can see the beauty of The Word of God even when we don't understand everything in it! The Wrath of God is JUST! Thank you guys God bless u both!!
Yes!
Actually, it is way less hard being progressive than it was when I was conservative/evangelical! So much more freedom, and peace, and wholeness. You may not believe me, but it’s true.
Our eyes are
Already open
@@mrcolbymartin Yeah, listen to that mush you just tried to defend while speaking with Sean - incoherent nonsense. You have no more to say than the average unbeliever on the street. You obscure truth and revel in your obscurity.
@@mrcolbymartin Dear Colby, there is no freedom in not knowing and being confused about every thing! Know the TRUTH AND THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREEE, I love you brother! There is a LOT I dont know , I dont understand why God wanted all of the cananite out of the way, HE is far and beyond our limited understanding, if I understood everything I would be God my self! There is freedom in not knowing everything, but still knowing HIM Who is Just and Creator of every thing! He Who gave me LIFE and gave me breath! Dear Lord Jesus thank You!!!
This is heartbreaking. Bart Compolo nailed it when he said progressive Christians are one step away from secular humanism.
He is wrong they are secular humanists masquarading has Christians. They will form the end time luciferian religion and will no doubt persecute Christians. Some might escape and realise their mistake, but the vast majority have no time for the true God or even care what he did for them and will perish in my opinion.
I have seen people (in my old church) go from leaving, toward the “missional” church to eventually end up secular humanist and tossing verbal grenades at the church.
Actually evangelicals are secular humanists - they are just too ignorant, dishonest and corrupt to admit reality.
@@greglogan7706 oh yeah man?? then what denomination are you buddy?
@@greglogan7706 you are speaking lies
The difficulty with Colby is that he answers everything with "for me" . I can't just place my whole faith on someone's " "for me".
Why do we need to place our faith on someone else’s anything? Perhaps true faith is always your own and never borrowed or copied from someone else... kudos to Colby for using the language “for me”.
We’re all on a personal journey with God. The moment we forget this our spiritually becomes stale and dull, because it is no longer “ours”.
@@krisornelas5090 Yes we all have a personal journey that is not the point of my comment!! My comment is in light of Colby along side his wife are leading a church, were they are teaching people about Christianity and he does not seem to actually engage with the scriptural text and answers most thing with "for me" about question regarding peoples eternity!! So I am pointing that out!! Yes it's good for him if wants to see thing that way, but if his standing in front people and teaching this, I am allowed to point out the difficulty in that teaching, because anyone can justify their actions good or bad based on "for me"!!
And that iwhat's happening, his church congregation are placing their entire faith and understanding of Christianity on Colby and wife's "for me", instead of them engaging with the biblical text!!
@@krisornelas5090
Peter disagrees with you and Colby...
1 Peter 4:11a NKJV
[11a] If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God.
@@scwienert that is so wildly out of context it’s difficult to know what to even say... should everyone speak like an oracle? What if they’re wrong? How would they know? This is the problem with just trusting what someone tells you. That’s not faith in God, it’s faith in people, and it’s idolatry. Strange that more people don’t see something fairly obvious as this.
@@krisornelas5090 it’s perfectly in context.
1 Peter 4:10 NKJV
[10] As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
Pastors are gifted by the Holy Spirit to speak for God and pastor the flock. He claims to be a pastor. See the connection?
And yes, if you aren’t confident you are speaking truth on behalf of God, don’t speak it, especially if you are a pastor. Silence is indeed an option, and a wise one when we don’t know what we are talking about.
James 3:1 NKJV
[1] My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.
Your disagreement isn’t with me, it’s with Peter and James.
THANK YOU for having this conversation. It is sorely needed these days!!
It's not the "data between our ears" it's the condition of our hearts ♥ that God is concerned with.
I appreciate this conversation and Colby’s honesty with being unsure and confused on much of his beliefs. It sounds like he’s trying to figure it out. The area that confuses me is why he still attaches himself to Christianity. There is very little of what he said that could be considered Christian. He could just start his own religion? Maybe call it something else and just take Christianity out of it. One of the most beautiful aspects of Christianity is that it is unchanging like God is. Colby is teaching people of thoughts he’s trying to flush out himself. Perhaps he could take a few years off social media and figure things out before public teaching?
You put into words my thoughts on Mr. Martin. I wonder why he hangs on to the “Christian” tag line. I have an opinion about that.
He needs a lot of prayer.
@gracethrough faith
I believe it is comprehending Christ's sacrifice for our salvation, and striving to live a life of gratitude for such a gift... To me, gratitude means seeking to honor Him with every aspect of my life. I long to be selfless, and not selfish. It is a struggle for sure... Daily.
I've often wondered why people still want to be called Christians. It's possible that there is some false sense of comfort by holding to a form of godliness while denying the power therein. Idolatry is still idolatry even when it comes with a "Christian" name tag. The tragic reality is that Jesus told us that MANY will stand before Him and say.."Lord, we did all these things in YOUR name" and His reply...."I never KNEW you". Perhaps we could say that Christianity is not just about what we believe, but who we know... or more importantly who Jesus knows.
@@robbymacklin If we were referred to as "Jesus followers", people would be arguing all the time about the Hebrew language of his name and how to spell it. --Bc that argument is constant, even now.
This life is a battle... As in warfare (and we see it all the time depicted in movies) there are "double agents"... It is true that Satan can get more milage out of one fake Christian than 50 Satan worshipers. Maybe 500. Maybe more.
Why do viruses attach to cells? Without the right receptors the virus cannot attach and cannot propagate. Colby wants to bring his instructions to "cells"(souls) in order for them to produce life. He does not realize that he harbors death.
Sean, you are such a great example of being so gracious and accommodating. You listened to him with your heart, you did not judge, you were extremely forbearing. I kept saying to myself all through this, "I sure need to work on these qualities!" I do! I want to be a safe person, one with whom others can be safe to share without being judged. Thank you for modeling this, it gives me hope! 🙂
I can sense deep heartbreak in this man. His face shows distrust, and I’m so sad he’s decided to turn into progressivism to find his “belonging”. I hope more dialogues like this change his mind and the minds of people who have bought progressivism “hook line and sinker”, as he put it...because they are selling something. And he’s bought it.
Sean, you’re showing such grace and love toward him. So good. For all the talk of love in the progressive theology, you’re actually showing biblical love from the heart of Christ.
I did not see heartbreak, I saw sensitivity and restraint, while trying to give honest answers to questions that he does not think are important anymore.
@@CB-fb5mi two things can the true at the same time. A heartbroken person with deep hurt (which he openly discusses) can also be sensitive and show restraint.
@@swashingbuckles True. What I am getting at is that it is common for conservative Christians to look at progressives and say ‘who hurt you to change your theology’.... when usually the issue is that Christians become progressive when they realize the theology itself is what is causing the hurt. You saw this play out in the conversation, Sean immediately wanted to figure out if he was rejecting conservative theology because of a bad experience with individual people. But the truth is that toxic theology (hell, psa, anti-lgbt, original sin, inerrancy) creates toxic experiences. The claim of the progressive movement is that the theology itself is the problem, not bad apples or dysfunctional churches.
@@CB-fb5mi which I understand. But just because something is perceived as toxic doesn’t make the perception true.
@@CB-fb5mi OMG, thank you! I can't believe how much that point was completely missed/lost on viewers! All they hear is "I got hurt, so I left." Good gravy...
and yeah, Sean was (imo) trying to make a distinction between "theological ideas" and "getting hurt by people in the church," and I resented that separation. Anyway, it's so frustrating how much this point seems willingly misunderstood in these conversations: so let me be clear.
I LEFT EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANITY BECAUSE THE BELIEFS THEREIN WHERE NO LONGER TENABLE, AND/OR THEY WERE BAD, AND/OR THEY WERE WRONG IN LIGHT OF BETTER BIBLICAL INTERPRETATION.
AND...
many of those beliefs cause people to act poorly, which causes a lot of hurt and pain to others.
I'm really thankful for this conversation. So often in this digital world we talk past each other rather than talking to each other. Dialogue and relationship are so important so that we can remember the humanity we share rather than just the arguments we differ on. I watched it with my kids because I desire to have the same attitude toward their questions and doubts as your dad did toward yours, Sean, and I want them to feel free and safe to express those things. It's not always easy.
Colby is right about belonging. How can a believer grow in an environment of "it's my way or the highway "? I've experienced some of what Colby went through but I'm not a progressive. I ask God for help in loving others, I let go of things that are less important, and trust that God will work things out on HIS timing. I think Sean was a good example of being gentle. Thanks!
When you speak of “it’s my way or the highway,” are you speaking from the perspective of the congregation or from God? Because it really is God’s way or the highway. You don’t have to like it, but the truth offends.
Sean, you are such an example of patience and kindness. You listen without interrupting. Your example is something I can take with me in all conversations, even those not relating to theological topics.
This was such a good video. Colby was great too.
Thanks for watching. I agree, he’s a great guest.
Oh Jesus please give me the grace and love Shawn has....the patience kindness and goodness I now clearly see I am impatient and intolerable because it hurts ME when people seem to hurt YOU with their hearts and tongues...but YOU LORD dnt need MY sympathy ... I need more of YOU!!! AMEN AND AMEN!!!
A meaningful, instructive prayer thank you for posting it...all things before God, in humility
Returning to an abusive spouse is a good analogy. The spiritual abuse that is real needs to be acknowledge in today’s church and Christian communities. It’s a huge issue in need of repentance. Christians who are shaken up about the “church” never being the same need to realize, this . is . Why!!!
Hey Sean, thanks for modeling what it looks like to have a civil conversation, especially with someone we disagree with. I found it very challenging when Colby spoke because while his beliefs seem to be under the Christian umbrella, when he explained them I hard a real hard time grasping that his beliefs are Christian. I ask God we can all continue to learn how to hold conversations to seek to better understand people and love them as God loves them, and also hope we can receive God’s love through the people in our lives who love us too.
Who decides what Christianity is?
@@greglogan7706 Christ. It’s in the name so it’s easy to remember
@@greglogan7706, that’s a great question. As the person in the comment below put it, simplest way, Christ. When we start deciding what is good and bad about our Christian faith, we have left the original and mad e something new. I think this would be a great video for Sean to make sometime to answer your question.
So well done. I had no fear in my stomach. That never happens for me when I listen to people who disagree.
There's nothing wrong with not having the exact right answer nor is there anything wrong with not understanding the Bible fully but there is an enormous amount of wrong when that person that confesses their ignorance of Scriprure and their unclear interpretation of its teachings becomes the leader of a church. If you're unsure what you believe then you should probably be a part of the flock and not try and be a shepherd.
You are the voice of reason in a “shaky church” world where anything goes.
Glad you got it all figure out - please tell us exactly when Jesus is coming back...
Put up or shut up!
@@greglogan7706 thank you for your reply
I really enjoyed listening to this discussion. I probably will listen to it again in order to better understand some of Colby's views.
I went through my own "questioning of God" in my life and I went in some dark areas in my life. I am very thankful that my father always thought me that God is big enough for my questions and doubts.
Now I am very much an evangelical Christian and do not agree with Colby's views I really appreciate his opinions and his willingness to have this discussion knowing that many would not agree with him. We need more of these cordial conversations where we can have respectful conversations.
Thank you both for this interview.
I enjoyed this soooo much! Please make a part 2! I think there is so much more to cover and it's really interesting and helpful to listen to both sides :)
Thank you for having a differing voice on in such a respectful way. As an ex-Evangelical but still Christian, I really appreciate this.
I think when we take our eyes off of Jesus and look more unto the world, it can greatly affect our walk with God! People will disappoint, hurt, and may destroy...BUT our precious Lord and Savior is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow! Keep your eyes on Him, and Him only!
Amen!
I appreciated Colby coming on knowing the potential questioning by evangelicals. I loved this open conversation. I would say, particularly at points, I felt Colby’s resentment of Evangelical beliefs. I’m not saying he doesn’t have reasons for that, I’m just saying I can sense it. I’ve been hurt in my own church family, and I can see where that protectiveness, that guardedness, comes from. What I realized is that people are going to fail us because they’re just people. God is the one we put our faith and hope in. I pray for the absolute best for Colby. Sean, you do a great job asking, and deciphering, the questions. I also would agree that evangelicals have been too cut and dry when people have any doubts which makes it difficult to be able to go to our leaders and voice those questions.
Thank you both ! Sean, I appreciate your ministry.
This was a good conversation. I greatly appreciate the respect and genuine communication these two gentlemen displayed. This is what dialectic looks like!
Jesus himself said the wheat and the tares would grow together. I pray that colby becomes a true wheat and only by Jesus can this happen. Salvation belongs to the Lord🙏🏼✝️
This is a wonderful interview. Thank you Sean for asking such wonderful questions and being a great example of Christ for us all!
Great job, Sean! I appreciate your willingness to engage others who differ in their beliefs. I wish my progressive Christian friends understood the wisdom of the old saying, "If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything." 2 Thess. 2:10, "... because they refused to love the truth."
Wow. I too am praying for Colby. It's a shame to see someone who means so well, be so lost. It's like he's in a massive fog and (this is not to be unkind), but it's hard to understand Colby and he *himself* sometimes doesn't even understand what he's saying. I just pray he doesn't lead too many individuals to a false gospel and false Jesus. Great job Sean for your kind heart and your direction. Hopefully, Colby will take your leadership example and be able to heal properly and find the truth again.
I've seen this before when people get hurt they start rethinking about scripture. God does have the answers if we allow him to heal and show us all things
I have thought about this a lot because I was one who questioned and met a lot of resistance. I think that the problem is a LOT of pastors have not wrestled with the tough questions and therefore don't have answers. I think its a unique pastor who is so well versed in apologetics that they can walk people through their own doubts. Most pastors are gifted with speaking and teaching and not necessarily apologetics. Its a section of the church that is under serviced. There should be an apologists on each board, or available for those kids, adults and new believers who have questions.
Bonnie,
Many evangelical pastures are great at certainty but they are in fact certainly wrong. Certainty which is a major characteristic of evangelicalism is also one of its most destructive characteristics
@@greglogan7706 I'd say we are certain Jesus rose from the dead and that he is King. And we are also certain what constitutes as immoral behavior, how can you not be?
Highly appreciate this open conversation!!! May the name of our Lord Jesus continue prevailing!!! I’m thankful for this man to be brought to my attention so that I can pray for him.
I’d like to see more conversations like these important ones. My concern for Colby is that he seems to have a hard time accepting that the Creator does not look like us and it appears to me he is trying to construct one that looks far to human to be God.
Oh vey
@@andreagladson1251 well that doesn’t appear to be an engaging way to have dialogue with someone that has a different view.
@carissavisscher9648 but what about the part that we're created in his image? Also what makes us so sure that "God" is a "he"?
@@SupportTheArts-yo8ox Both are true that we are created in His image AND that the Creator is beyond space and time. So we are 'part' of the image but not the whole of the image or else you'd be God. God is more transcendent in the sense of being beyond everything and beyond thought. However, Christ the incarnate was a man. I'd suggest you study the trinity before you get hung up on the man thing.
This was truly painful to watch, I can see the anguish Colby is going through. It makes me so sad that he can't seem to have any certainty about God, Jesus, the Bible, or really anything.
No one can. The experience of certainty is merely a facade when there’s no tangible proof. When people gain the power to think for themselves their former certainty in their faith reveals its own true agenda- control.
People who are certain can be dangerous given enough power. Look at Islamic State. Doubt is ok. It's how we learn.
@@mads597 This is a false statement. I have the ability to think for myself. I am not in a church, but I have faith. Faith that I don't impose on anyone else. So where is the control?
I appreciate your comments Kristina. I feel some of the folks who replied to you here kind of miss the point of Christianity...you can be certain about God, have seasons of doubt, faithfully attend a Bible believing church and not want to control everyone else’s lives. We are in a battle with spiritual forces, not with flesh and blood.
This is what struck me too. In pursuing what he sees as love and in looking for a truth compatible with his understanding and satisfaction, he has become unconfident in truths -- in exchange for loyalty to principles, like inclusivity. I would not want to have to be uncertain about key points of the thing I'm trusting to save me. Principles like inclusivity cannot and will not save. Even love, not rooted and grounded in the true God, is insufficient to save. Ultimately belief saves, and true belief leads directly to passionate love for God and others.
I pray Colby keeps searching and will one day be born again and surrender to Jesus❤️🙏🏼✝️📖
He already was born again. I guess he could be born again again.
Surrender to Jesus? Sounds like a jail sentence
It's the "answers" as Colby says, that is the issue. It's not so much that the answers are wrong, but more so that people just don't like them. The message of Christ is offensive
Who decides what the message of prices?
@@greglogan7706 Jesus
What is offensive about being pardoned from sin?
@@carolinepowers9694 I can't speak for Kenny but I think the statement "The message of Christ is offensive" refers to how people living by the flesh will find it offensive because as you know living in the flesh is in total contradiction to living by the Spirit.
@@carolinepowers9694 first having to admit you are a sinner and not righteous.
"We are all chldren of God, and that's Biblical, I'm not just pulling it out of my butt" -- Colby Martin. No, the Scriptures teach that we are all created in the image of God (we are all his creation), but "as many as received him [i.e. Jesus], to them he gave the right to become children of God." We are only adopted as his children when we put our faith in Jesus (again, according to the Scriptures).
👏🏾👏🏾 it's black and white! All one has to do is read the text
I was thinking the same thing when he said that.
“Whoever does gods will is my brother and sister and mother” mark 3-35
Emphasis on The “Who does gods will” part
@@iambored9060 John 6:40.
Those who do the will of God are those who believe in Christ, and as a result, live and walk in the Spirit of God after salvation.
Christ did the will of the Father perfectly, we cannot in our own power do so.
For us to do the will of God, we trust in Christ for salvation, and from that point forward it is Christ who lives in us doing in us as He did when He physically walked the earth.
Galatians 2:20-21. God bless you. Christ calls everyone to repent and believe in the Gospel.
It's unfortunate that he hasn't actually read the Bible. Or at least retained any of it anyway.
Sean McDowell, you are truly a special person. These shows and conversations have become a great help to me as I come back to the LORD, repent, and find grace in the cross and the word of GOD. You ask great questions of experts on relevant topics facing the Church. Often involving battle zone topics and the modern assault on the Church, on the Faith. You have gift. God bless you, you seem to have been given some special wisdom and love on top of all your hard work snd great learning. Love and widom....on top of great learning...generosity to share all of it.....courage to face the most difficult topics with people of opposing views....I don't know Sean, what would you say to a man like that? God bless you kiddo, much love and admiration.
I respect Mr. Martin for being on the show. It sounds like he is wrestling with his own faith and beliefs. He seems way too concerenced about what other people think about him. I pray God shows himself to this man to give him clarity.
Thanks Hillary! And yeah, I'm constantly trying to do better about caring less of what other's think. As an Enneagram 3, this is especially difficult for me. But I'm getting better!! Thanks for your prayers.
I get it! I struggle at times with that as well. I can only imagine how that intensifies with a platform like yours. I try my best to look at it from "what would God think of me" perspective. I sincerely hope the best for you, God bless!
@@mrcolbymartin I'm praying for you Colby. My prayer is that you will embrace and hold fast to the words of Jesus when He said that heaven and earth would pass away but His word will never pass away. Not one tiny punctuation mark will pass away. He moved by His Spirit upon holy men who wrote down the words that He breathed upon them. It is the gospel of God and not of any man. God is the only savior. Beside Him there is no savior. Jesus claimed to be the I AM. He was fully God and fully man. He is our kinsman redeemer, the only mediator between God and man. He died in our place as the Lamb of God. He rose bodily from the dead. "handle me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have". He is alive and He promised us that He would come back again. My prayer is that one day you will abide in the words of Jesus and know the truth... and the truth shall set you free. My prayer is that you will have full and complete confidence in Jesus and in His word. That you will stand firmly planted upon the rock that the builders rejected and find His peace which passes all understanding. My prayer is that you will gladly become a fool in the eyes of the world that you might gain Christ. I love you Colby and I am praying for you.
For me personally progressive Christianity comes off as patronizing. As a woman, who is mixed, grew up dirt poor, daughter of an immigrant, the qualification of my “pain” being assigned more meaning than a straight, white male resounds as hollow and superficial. The world has and always has been filled with evil and pain regardless of ethnicity, socioeconomic status, sexuality. I don’t need someone to qualify my pain. Interesting enough the pervasiveness of progressive theology that I can look back on a recognize at churches I attended throughout life is what almost drove me from church.
You’re right, Hanna, I was generalizing about the experiences of minorities in the church, and (with regards to gender) the experience of many women who exist with patriarchal religious structures. But that does not mean all women have the same experience. Thanks fir sharing your perspective here.
@@mrcolbymartin you seem to have a sincere heart for people but it also seems that due to your desire to love others that you have chosen to view Christianity through your own lens versus the lens of scripture as the authority. That’s the problem with subjective realities... who is the ultimate authority on morality? Do our feelings and pain trump all or are we all fallen, sinful and undeserving of Gods grace as forgiveness? Progressive Christianity has been a stumbling block for so many that I know that are searching for Jesus but being fed social justice according to the culture of today. If the goalpost is always moving then why even try?
Wow. I really appreciate both of your thoughtful comments here.@hanna
@@mrcolbymartin
Hey Colby - Thanks for SAYING PLENTY - in a very thoughtful and HONEST manner - as opposed to the religious gibberish of your adversaries.
May I encourage you to adjust one matter - I would drop the adjective "progressive" - it is silly. There are only Christians and non-Christians - truth and non-truth.
Evangelicals OTOH are a whole separate dish - easily identified by their certainty about that which they know absolutely nothing - thinking because they are literate they know something - yet all have even absolutely contradictory opinions. This is all just plain DISHONEST on in the whole... which perfectly characterizes evangelicalism.
Anyway - you will have a stronger case dropping the silly label that THEY labeled you with - but you unfortunately accepted.
@@mrcolbymartin The patriarchy lol.... I guess God didn't see that one coming when He created the authority structures of the home. Humanism sets on the throne of God exalting itself as God. Do you not know this is what animates you?
As I watch Colby speak, his words and delivery come from his heart purely. He feels tons.
Thanks Sean for being so kind and respectful but still bringing truth to this much needed conversation 🙏
Sean I really like how you pressed this man. Great job! I pray for Colby and the people he is leading a stray. Please Sean follow up with a debate with Colby.
He really sounds confused! If I were him I would go back to being a Christian and start from the beginning.
Yes
If I were him, I would commit myself to atheism and stop confusing my thinking.
Yup
Tammy, did you see the hate, judgement, name-calling, and all the rest being dumped into the comments (both live and afterwards) by the 'real' Christians? Why would he go back to this? It is partly the reason why he left in the first place. The church is not a friendly or safe place to be confused in, I very much know that from personal experience. While I have managed to find my way back, it was in spite of the church, not because of it, and when I watch/read comments in videos like this, I am deeply ashamed to be associated with this group.
@@johanfuhri yes it should be embarrassing. These people speak of unconditional live of one another, but as soon as theres any questioning, they are instantly shunned from the herd... and then don’t care to admit the atrocities their bullshit religion has caused
Thanks Sean for this conversation with Colby, and glad it was respectful on both sides. Colby came from a place of truth and I think that we evangelicals do indeed need to realize that, even if we don't agree with the progressive view fundamentally, it has historically been our handling of the faith that has typically catalyzed progressive Christianity. I think Sean's point about how his father allowed him to think for himself is extremely instructive for us.
Colby is full of nonsense and does not come from a place of truth. He denies diety of Christ, denies the resurrection. If by truth you mean he is being honest about what he thinks, it might be possible that he is ... However, he is leading other people astray, he is a wolf. I do respect Sean for his patience and his love for Colby and the way he interacts. As christians though, we cannot tolerate this nonsense. Paul had no patience and advised us against people like this, infact there are many warnings in the bible about false teachers like him.
@@coreyl6647 Well yes by truth I mean he is being honest about what he thinks. I certainly don't agree with liberal/progressive theology and I do think they should be called out for it. But my point is that progressive theology doesn't come from nowhere. Evangelicals have a strong part to play in their creation and I think we have to come to grips with this more. In particular, the whole area of being allowed to doubt and question without being looked down upon - when the Church doesn't answer these questions, Christians look elsewhere. There is something that we are missing if this is the case.
If Jesus "didn't care about life after death" as Colby says, then why did Jesus bother dying on the cross for our sins!??
You cannot genuinely be saved if you are questioning the validity of Jesus Resurrection. It's literally a requirement for salvation.
Love this discussion! Although there is some lingering questions regarding a few of the points made. Not gonna lie ... seems like progressive Christianity takes you in circles without actually answering any hard questions. He gave so many analogies it was kind of hard to follow his thoughts on some of the questions Sean asked. Great discussion though. Very respectful and insightful
Maybe there are no answers to those "hard questions... maybe the problem is that your ego desperately needs those... So you will create whatever idol necessary to satisfy your cravings.
Better to sit with and embrace the questions, rather than insist on amswers.
On the question of life after death and a real hell Colby says “Jesus cared about life before death”. And there it is. The new gospel is decisively about improving this life and not eternal life.
Oh Lord please preserve Your Gospel which saves souls for eternity AND fills us with Your Spirit which causes us to love others, have mercy, and results in us feeding, clothing and loving others this side of heaven.
precisely. Its so worrying because this life will end. Jesus Himself said His kingdom is not of this world.
@@wambuindishu6353 yes, I'm afraid so many of these people are more worried about this minute FRACTION of eternity...........so sad!
I find it interesting how people respond to pain/suffering and hurt in different ways.
I am disturbed in my spirit that the term “Christian” is applied to broadly to cover those that are very unchristian. Being in a EXCLUSIVE RELATIONSHIP with our God is very different from a religion!
Is it though? I mean christianity has unique qualities for sure but for exaple the norse mythology worked as a kind of relationship between gods and men. People would pray and ask certain god for help or guidance and if the god didn't answer that person would stop and have relationship with another god. That seems like more of a two way stream or more like a relationship than even christianity. The gods and men were in constant connection with each other.
Both genuinely great to listen to , enjoyed the open and honest discussion. 👌
This is exactly what we need more of -- respectful, civil discussion and room for disagreement, as well as agreement. Thank you both.
Thank you for the civil conversation. It was great for Colby to say yes and to join the discussion. It has really shown some real distinctions between the view of Scripture, the person of Christ, and whether or not we have a need for a Savior. We can all pray for our nation, and the leaders in our churches, and our government. Wow.
Thank you Colby! Appreciate your clarity and manner.
Colby Martin if you preaching ,you are to preach the Gospel.if you do not understand a chapter in the bible,reread til you understand ,not to question.
The more I listen to Colby the more I understand that sadly he has no idea who really God is, nor does he understand that the word of of God stands today without our attempt to defend it or miss interpret it.
The more many of us listen the evangelical nonsense we leave the church for being so hateful
@@andreagladson1251 the Truth offends.
Exactly. I thought he really knew about the Bible like he claims. But I noticed he’s not as informed as he shows. I myself even knew that the Muslims have a high regard to Jesus as a prophet and also not believing in homosexuality but that doesn’t mean the Muslims are Christians. They just don’t believe Jesus as the Messiah who resurrected in the third day.
@@andreagladson1251 If they were so “hateful” we would be living in a world that if you don’t believe in the gospel, we would get arrested or get our heads cutt of. But you yourself even said you have the freedom to leave. Plus, this isn’t about “evangelicals” which is the good news. Is about your relationship with God. Does it really matter if you love your friends or if you love the unkind people who are not your friends? (Also from the Bible).
@strongfaith888 Matthew 7:21 the progressive vs evangelical.. progressive Christians should just say they are not believers 🤦♂️
Clarity comes in glimpses sometimes. I appreciate both of you having this conversation.
Echo Sean: Thank you Colby for your openness and willingness to engage in the conversation. I think this was a respectful conversation about trying to understand the perspective.
Colby justifies the lust of the flesh. Almost everything he believes in is against the word of God. He’s a “progressive” ... but I think he should drop the Christian title. (If you believe in Jesus Christ and the Bible) you should test what someone says and what scripture says. We are not to sow to our flesh... and that is what it seems like Colby is promoting. He is unsure about a lot and almost sounds lost. 🙏I pray he finds his way back to the truth.
Hi!
There was no ”lust of the flesh” in this interview. However, keep on praying for Sean and Colby. They need the blessing of our Lord Jesus in their work all the same :)
I wish you truth and love!
Best regards,
Henric in Sweden
@henrichallberg1925 Colby didn't use the words, "Lust of the flesh." But he did speak in favor of the LGBTQ alphabet of actions that the lust of the flesh produces.
We have a huge battle in engaging the world with our historical faith.
Something I hear Colby saying is that Evangelical doctrine requires you have certain beliefs. A more correct statement is that Evangelicals believe that there are concrete truths, whether you choose to believe them or not.
A brilliant dialogue, with excellent questions and well articulated answers.
Unsurprisingly, I am on Pastor Colby B Martin's side as like him I am a Progressive Christian.
However, I was impressed by the way the more fundamentalist Evangelical Sean McDowell presented his stance.
This was a very insightful conversation. I'm all for bridges being built between the Christian Left and Christian Right. After all, we all worship the same God and don't want the persecution we unleashed onto one another in the past repeated. 🙏🏼
God speaks in us all in different ways, and I feel a lot of Christians and people of differing political beliefs could learn from this dialogue in how to maintain respect even if you disagree with one another.
Thanks for watching and sharing. I’ve got another similar convo coming up this Friday, so join us 11am PT!
I commend both of you for having such a respectful and thoughtful discussion. This kind of dialogue holds such value right now. What a good discussion on doubt, and how so often the Evangelical church has left much too little room for those questioning, and allowing space for that...not to say we don’t continue to speak the truth, but evangelicals can do so much better in showing grace and coming alongside those questioning hearts with the love of Jesus.
What strikes me as interesting is how, for someone woke to knowledge and higher spiritual, cultural, and social understanding (compared to evangelicals), Colby sure doesn’t seem to know or grasp what he really believes. It seems as if he replaces a firm grasp on what he believes to be “truth” with his feelings on every one of the topics/aspects discussed. I’ve noticed that about progressive Christians...that instead of holding God as Sovereign & all-knowing, their religion and faith becomes-really at the core- what they feel to be true. It is solely and completely their feelings which dictate “truth”. That’s a scary thing when it comes to something as important as taking your last Earthly breath and finding out what happens next. But progressive Christianity says that there is no hell. So I guess Evangelicals are in a good place either way 😃
Thanks for watching!
He is clear about what he believes
He did not just say “romans road” sarcastically. We need to all be praying for colby in days to come as he needs some serious guidance and help.
Such a great conversation! So beautiful to see two people discussing serious topics so respectfully and intelligently - thank you so much!
Sean, I loved this interview. I have some friends walking through these same questions and you’re an incredible help with showing how to lovingly approach those conversations. Would love to see a part 2 someday.
Colby, I wish so much that I'd known about your church while I was still living in San Diego. God bless you for taking this stand. The evangelicals sending you scathing comments while you are speaking to Sean are followers of Christianity, not of Christ. If they are so insecure that they need to call you names and condemn you for challenging their fundamentalist worldview, then they are blinded by religion. I grew up in that subculture too, and by the grace of God, I have been delivered from evangelical Christianity. May He bless your ministry abundantly. Hopefully I will get a chance to visit your church when I next visit the States and SD.
In Christ,
Noelle
It is heartbreaking if Christians are behaving this badly, speaking horribly of Colby. I haven’t seen them yet but I trust you have or you wouldn’t comment. Love God and love others….period. ❤️
Great conversation Sean. I hope you do commentary soon.
I was hugely impressed by Sean's questions and responses. I have been having these same questions regarding progressive views, since several of my family members are progressives. I also appreciated Colby's honest and humble answers. If we could have more of these dialogues as believers, that would be helpful.
Huge kudos to both of you-- I'm sure this was not an easy conversation for either of you to navigate, and you did it beautifully.
I’ve never heard a man say so much yet say nothing at all.
"you say it best... when you say nothing at all."
@@mrcolbymartin, Praying for you. I appreciate you willing to engage.. This tells me that God is at work, otherwise this dialogue would not have happened. May God give you his Holy Spirit, so that you can believe in Him. May the Holy Spirit who is truth, allow you to understand God's Word (his truth), and obey as he directs. I look forward to the day you put out a video called "I once was lost, but now I am saved". With sincerity, you are lost now, but God CAN SAVE anyone. Praying he does that for you. Love you.
You obviously do not have ears to hear. Sad.
@@jonathancummings7433
Your ego-centric, arrogance is stifling....
You are simply setting your own self up as your idol - and bowing down...and regurgitating.
@@greglogan7706, Your comment is disconnected from what I said. Not sure if you are responding to me or someone else. Regardless, it doesn't make sense.
It seems to that Colby is a genuine guy who never really experienced the Gospel in the church. That's on us.
I think this is a very good conversation, and the 'for me' from Colby was somthing I think is very good, he speaks for himself and his own beliefs.
Great watch and listen. I truly appreciate Sean's non judgmental way and also Colby being honest at where he's at. As the son of missionary parents brought up heavily in a very conservative theology which sadly was more hinged on the condemning side then the forgiving side I spent the vast majority of my life struggling hard with my faith in God and this left many doors of attack for the forces of evil to lay waste to what God had intended not to be so. We can all quote scriptures and throw stones but whats hard is to put them down and see truthfully that its all Gods grace and pray for others to be impacted by that grace. The same prison God allowed me to enter on trafficking charges was the same prison I got to share my love of Jesus to others in. Its been an up and down battle which keeps getting stronger in my faith to and with him personally. Before you reflect on others...make sure you're reflecting honestly on yourself and then ask am I being a reflection of Jesus Christ. Colby and Sean both need our love and prayers as we all do and may we all search our selves daily to flush out the poisons that continually creep into out temples. Just a sinner saved by grace. Thanks for you both sharing. Alot of the so called bride of Christ would do well to go to an AA meeting to learn the definition of sympathy and empathy and compassion. To do a honest step four daily before speaking as James says the toungue what great fires it sets ablaze. Theres a program out there called Celebrate Recovery that I highly suggest and I enjoy. Keep in mind the ones Jesus took greatest issue with was those that thought they had all the answers and pointed out those that weren't quite up to there standards. And yes I firmly beleive that Jesus was God's unique divine son that he lay down his life for me not just on the cross but for all of it and rose literally from the dead and is in God's presence on high and one day after my life here is done ill see him face to face...I dont beleive ill ever see God face to face however as the omniscient spiritual being he is not will I ever see the Holy Spirit face to face as both are entities without physical bodies as scripture is abundantly clear. The sermon on the mount needs to be preached alot more in the church for us to reflect on...not what length of hair a woman needs to have or whether the person sitting beside you in church has a gossiping tongue or is gay...which does scripture say is worse? Keep your stones where they need be and may we all in some small way be just a little more like Christ each day. Love to you all.