Progressive Christianity: A Biblical Response (with Michael Kruger)
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- What are the ten commandments of progressive Christianity? Based on a list of ten principles put forth by an influential progressive Christian, Dr. Michael Kruger offers a diagnosis and critique of progressive Christianity.
READ: The Ten Commandments of Progressive Christianity, by Michael Kruger (amzn.to/3PUJYpv)
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God is so timely! Found this video today and shared it with my brother in law who was asking these questions genuinely yesterday and I couldn’t answer as well as y’all did here. Thank you both!
What an excellent, helpful convo. Ty!
Really, really thought this was an excellent and valuable vlog.......thought the statements made at the 27:30 about the importance of good theology and Pharisees not teaching good theology, I know a very prominent Contemporary Christian singer in an interview years back mock the need of "theology" which may be explaining her liberal slide recently.
I would think the attraction of progressive christianity is it sooth our imagination,🧠,💔,🎭
against the truth of ISAIAH 64:6,JEREMIAH 17:9,
ROMANS 3:23.We are susceptible to the tempta-
tion of complacency,expediency,and pragmatism 🙄🤔
I disagree, Christian Progressives is an oxymoron.
Such an excellent discussion of a timely topic. I'd love to hear round two on how to deal with family who are being seduced by Progressive "Christianity". Thank you both!
Good idea, thx.
@@SeanMcDowell The Relationship of Christ’s Two Natures in the Hypostatic Union
First, the two natures are united without loss of separate identity. Christ’s human nature always remains human, and His divine nature always remains divine. There is no mixture of the attributes of one nature with those of the other. A mixture would cause the human nature to cease being a human nature, the divine nature to cease being a divine nature, and Christ to cease being fully God and fully Man. A mixture would change the real essence of the incarnated Christ.
…the two natures are united without loss of separate identity….the two natures are united without either losing any of its attributes.
Second, the two natures are united without either losing any of its attributes. When Christ became incarnated, His divine nature did not lose any of its attributes, and He did not take to Himself just a partial human nature. His divine nature remained a complete divine nature, and He took to Himself a complete human nature. Thus, He is fully God and fully Man. If either nature were minus any of its attributes, Christ’s essence would be different than it is.
Third, although Christ has two complete natures, He remains one person. He is not two persons. The attributes of both natures belong to His person. While on earth, Christ performed some functions in the realm of His humanity (He walked from place to place, Jn. 4:3-6) and other functions in the realm of His deity (He held the whole universe together, Col. 1:17), but in both instances one person was acting. Thus, at the same time this one person could be physically tired and omnipotent, growing in wisdom and omniscient, finite and infinite, limited to one location and omnipresent.
The Importance of Christ’s Hypostatic Union
The hypostatic union of the incarnated Jesus Christ is important for at least two reasons.
First, it was necessary for Christ to be the perfect revealer of God to mankind. Only deity can perfectly reveal deity, but Christ also had to be human to give that revelation in a manner that human beings could grasp (Jn. 1:18; 14:7-9; Col. 1:15; Heb. 1:3).
Second, it was necessary for the work of redemption. The Redeemer had to be one person who was both human and divine. He had to be human to die and to die as mankind’s substitute. He had to be divine to die for all human beings and so that His death might have infinite value (1 Tim. 2:5-6; Heb. 2:14-18).
I have to so strongly disagree with your statements, "the gospel starts with sin." The gospel starts with good creation, that we are the image of God. We are profoundly valuable to God and that we are to lead the worship of Him. It's only in that context that sin can be understood as the devastating force that it is while not crushing the souls of those hurt by sin. We need a deep anthropology of sin and a deep anthropology of image of God. It's only then that we can appreciate how we are being remade into the image of Christ (God). When we start with sin we are telling people that they need to change before they belong rather than God has already done the work to allow them to belong.
Yes and no. We have to be careful that we are are not enablers...so squishy that we "tolerate" everything and become peddlers of " cheap grace". Like parents of an addict who are so afraid of loosing their child they won't take decisive action in hopes of motivating them to healing.
Liberalism (as it's currently defined), and progressivism, in the context of theology, or politics, or anything else is rooted in socialist/marxist ideas. The process is always the same. In order to destroy the group, country, peoples, etc they always start with the foundation. Destroy the language first. If you can change the definitions and understandings of words, by definition that word has become ill-defined. That also means the concept that word is supposed to represent also loses its structure.
Definitely worth waiting until no.10🤗 such a valuable discussion on the book. After 27 years in full-time ministry I am acutely aware of how progressive has been creeping in since the beginning of time it just changes its manifestation over time. However more so now than ever before.
I’m glad it was helpful!
Thanks for this discussion! I understand his book so much better after listening to it being explained.
Unfortunately p-Christians won't be considering this. They'll brush it off as some deplorable talk of unloving bible-thumpers. They think they are great people, because they are 'so loving' and that Jesus was Great, because he 'accepted everyone'. If you show them that it ain't that easy and that they give false meanings to words like faith, love, salvation, etc. they simply dismiss out of hand... simply because it would strike their ego as foolish.
@@goldoryellow6882. Many things labeled progressive is anything but improvement. It is regressive.
As a practicing Catholic I appreciate Dr Kruger calling out Richard Rohr. He is a heretic from what I can tell. I wish the Catholic hierarchy would call him out and stop him from using the Catholic Church to teach his heretical views. I have the same concern as dr Kruger about my children being drawn to his ideas. Troubling.
Catholicism is inherently wrong. It preaches faith AND works saves, when it's strictly faith that saves. It also adds a lot that Jesus and his disciples never said, such as indulgences, purgatory, etc.
@@kadensmith1224 well how do you really feel! 🤣. Just faith then. So you don’t believe in sin and Jesus will come back to judge the living and the dead. Seems like you have been brainwashed somewhere along your life to hate the Catholic Church. Which is by the way very popular point of view. It’s called prejudice. My unscientific view is that satan comes after what is true and good , which in your case is the Catholic Church.
Your pope is saying the same things. So I guess he's a heretic too.
Great interview!
Knowing there is an element of truth in each of those 10 truth statements ironically makes it easier to see the error of each. The method of using life experiences (whether negative or positive) to pit one true doctrine against another instead of accepting both as biblical is nothing new, but it seems to have intensified and grown in sophistication. The emphasis both of you put on the importance of having correct doctrine along with an attitude of graciousness cannot be stressed enough. Can’t wait to read the book. Thank you!
Yeah, caused me to recall, 'The Spirit of Truth, and is not counterfeit'. Salvation is so totally Objective and Extrospective, whereas 'the world and it's man-made religions' are based on Not Knowing the One True God and as such by that virtue default to being based on subjective feelings, thoughts, one's own sense of righteousness, and philosophical thinking (Eve saw the Tree was Good for Wisdom - philosophy being the love of wisdom).
Half truths are the cornerstone of the Luciferian deception. He encourages the service and glorification of the self. That’s how to recognize his lies and half truths. Jesus taught us to serve God’s will above all else, especially our own will.
All very timely for our time in 21st Century western Christianity.
A must watch for all Christians who take the truth of the bible seriously, aren't after an 'easy life' and want to honestly live by what the Bible teaches even if it contradicts current western culture.
Happily, the nonsense in your bible that approves of genocide, child-killing, slavery, etc has been tossed in the bin by many many people. And as for your claim of "honestly living by what the bible teaches", every Christian makes up what he wants to claim the bible teaches. Funny how you folks aren't out there killing people for working on the sabbath like your god supposedly commands. You just pick and choose your way through the commandments, ever so sure that your god surely won't want you to follow those inconvenient ones.
Amen 🙏🏻
You want to live by what the bible teaches? So you think rape is a good way to get a wife, unruly children should be stoned to death, and women are worth less than men?
Do you mean slavery, genocide, polygamy, selling your daughter, women as property of men, concubines, stoning people for heinous crimes like gathering sticks on the sabbath and lack of proof of virginity on wedding night?
The 1st commandment CS Lewis answered that (IMO) quite effectively.
"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”
I disagree with CS Lewis. Many religious leaders are delusional when it comes to their claims of divinity but this does not discredit their moral teachings.
@@RangerRyke
"Many religious leaders are delusional when it comes to their claims of divinity but this does not discredit their moral teachings."
I would like to to think Real Hard about that statement. I assume you are talking about Christian Leaders. If you are talking about someone outside The Faith, then I have to ask "Whee Do You Get Your Moral Teaching?
What does son of g-d mean in Christianity?
@@catandmouse14
Cliff Notes Version: Can be found in The Apostles Creed.
Why do you write g-d and not god?
@@stevenwiederholt7000 Christian cults, Hindu gurus, Buddhist fanatics, Ancent Greek priests. They can all be delusional about their divine importance buts still teach good morals. That doesn’t mean the all do to equal degrees but delusion and morality can be had hand in hand. My sense of morality it rooted in Christian culture but I don’t know if I’m qualified to say I know the root of my sense of morality.
Really gotta appreciate the generosity of Reformed Theological Seminary for putting out an app and uploading hundreds of hours of lectures and entire courses for free to the public. God bless them
Didn’t know that! Thanks for sharing
Thank you for sharing this!
Same with bible project app!!
"Reconciliation can only happen when wrongs are acknowledged .. ".
*Thank you!!!!* I wish people understood this better and stopped preaching the idea of reconciliation by "grace and mercy" .. i.e. returning to toxic, dysfunctional and ultimately unhealthy situations where no change has taken place. 🥺
Repent, and believe the Gospel. Both John the immerser and Jesus Christ had the same message.
Edit: now i think about it.
.. it is the message through out Scripture.
@@thefirsttheist8888 exactly. We can't even have a meaningful relationship with Jesus without acknowledging and turning from wrongs done. "Repent and believe.. "
I would like to hear exactly how this is done? I can apologize to my son or friend or neighbor for something I personally did.
Many influential leaders are taking 'reconciliation' to extremes and passing it for Gospel. As far as I understand Jesus reconcile us on the Cross, Don’t we just need to submit to Him and behave towards our neighbor just like He would do? us individually?. Am I wrong?
It’s interesting I started reading Christianity and Liberalism about 2 months ago and it is near identical to the problems we see 100 years later. Great interview!
That’s great you read Machen!
Exactly progressive Christianity is just making a god in their own image that agrees with everything they already believe and disagree with. It's another form of idolatry which makes a god in their own image that they don't have to be morally responsible or accountable to. This has nothing and everything to do with the video but please listen if you want to otherwise leave it alone and ignore it. Hello my name is Justin and I'm a fellow Christian and Apologist but I'm also a college student. I'm not a closed minded Theist as I have nothing against Atheists or unbelievers as I speak to them often to understand their reasons for unbelief but we as Christians are convinced of God's Existence due to many real factors). I'm not trying to convert anyone or convince anyone to become Christians as that's The Holy Spirit's job to help people believe but only explain why I believe in Jesus Christ. There's actually evidence of God's Existence in Christianity. First of all there's proof that Jesus of Nazareth existed in history since the writings of Tacitus, Josephus Flavius, Pliny the younger and other historical documents prove that He was living two thousand years ago that even scholars both religious and Atheists agree with historically speaking but not that He's The Divine Son of God because obviously they don't.
I'm going to give you historical and archeological evidence for God's Existence as The Scriptures have prophecies that predate the events recorded in them by several millennia including Matthew, Hosea and Zechariah which prophesy accurately of the people of Israel becoming a nation again after over 1900 years of being scattered around the nations since the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 A.D. spoken of by Christ in Matthew 23:29-24:3 and returning to their homeland after The Holocaust with Jerusalem as their capital in 1948 exactly as Jesus The Christ said. The prophets including Daniel spoke of the time where several world empires would arise and fall including the Babylonian kingdom, Medes and Persians, Roman Empire, and Saladin and the Muslims which went in consecutive order for the past few millennia. The people of Israel becoming a nation after The Holocaust in 1948 (ironically the melting point of gold as God compares Israel to gold that's tested in fire in Zechariah 13:8 and Jeremiah 16:15) exactly how Jesus The Christ said would happen since God us everything to come in The Scriptures and not just because people were working towards as Atheists claim which are impossible for any regular man to predict.
Just before anyone says Christianity is a white man's religion made to oppress blacks during slavery you obviously aren't aware that the first Christians were Jews in The Middle East and that Christianity just like any religion can be used by evil and corrupt people to oppress others but you forget that the first Abolitionists/Civil Rights activists were Christians who sought to abolish slavery, racism, segregation, injustice and prejudice throughout American history. Jesus The Christ loves you enough not to give you what we all deserve which is God's Wrath by His Own Blood. Charles Darwin didn't originally come up with The Theory of Evolution over 200 years ago as it is mentioned in the writings of Ancient Greeks who believed in Demons that gave knowledge to philosophers.
Evolution makes no sense when nothing has evolved after thousands of years of human history and supposedly the first creature came from primordial sludge several millions of years
ago funny how they won't believe that God an Eternal Almighty Spirit Being created us from the Earth) which came from a supermassive expansion of matter at high temperature that inexplicably created everything in the known universe that supposedly came from nothing billions of years ago. How did the organs evolve before there were bones, skin, substance and how did any creatures see before eyes evolved? I've studied evolution and abiogenesis in the past and read Darwin's " Origin of The Species" I've studied evolution and abiogenesis in the past and read Darwin's " Origin of The Species" and I'm not convinced of but not macro or micro Evolution because there's no evidence of it nor clear observable examples of it where living creatures evolve into other kinds of species plus the fact that fossils don't show evidence of evolution and genetic entropy rules out evolution. The question begs how did two genders evolve from a common ancestor with a perfectly hospitable and sustainable environment with breathable oxygen and resources to survive on inexplicably? Atheists have the burden of proof to explain how everything came to be and why our existence is possible without the Existence of God from an godless perspective just as Christians have to provide evidence of God's Existence and the validity of His Word.
Evolution requires life to already exist in order to take any effect in living organisms so it doesn't account for the existence of Life and reality. Also evolution is impossible because it goes against The Law of entropy and the second Law of thermodynamics because evolution makes things better whereas nothing continues to get better but decays and turns to absolute destruction in the end. Mark Ridley an Evolutionist said "No evolutionist whether gradualist or punctuationist uses the fossil record as evidence in favor of The Theory of Darwinian Evolution as opposed to special Creation". God's Existence is made perfectly known and observable in the universe as demonstrated in His Handiwork in the intelligently designed manner that Creation was made, human consciences and consciousness historical and archaeological evidence of God's Word being valid history, fulfillment of Bible Prophecies God in His Holiness and Righteousness could give us what we deserve in Hell for our since but He's merciful to give us free will to choose to accept or reject His gift of salvation by grace through faith in His Son Jesus. I don't mean this is any condescending manner but if you'd like to discuss The Scriptures with me or have me listen to your view on anything my instagram account is Savage Christian Kombatant.
How about a show on how fundamentalist Christianity compares with Orthodox Christianity? I'm recalling that modern Evangelicalism was intended to be a third way between Fundamentalism and Progressivism.
It makes me SO sad that we even have to have this conversation. We love You Jesus and worship You!
“Love everyone” is the first problem. Define love, define if this is being expected in the Church, which church, define if this being expected of the government teaching moralism, or is the Enemy trying to invoke guilt and shame on everyone to control them. It’s really unfortunate that the churches have bought into “socialism” or “Wokism” which a major point is that Catholicism has encouraged this lousy goosy form of love to allow NO responsibility to people or accountability for actions that ARE WRONG. An example is that we have allowed “sanctuary cities” with no justice for murderers who can hide in a church forever, and never be held accountable also the opening of our borders so that we can “love everyone” like Catholicism, and even some present day Judaism. The media, usually television has supported Catholicism wrongly, for years and years. When the Pope speaks he is lauded immediately on TV. People have not been taught that there is a Protestant point of view. Catholicism only teaches “the Pope”. The Pope does not present Jesus Christ as THE AUTHORITY. The Protestant Christian Church is not under the Law, unless you understand the the “law that gives freedom” to love in a personal way. See James 2:12-13. We should talk about sin in a way that does not manipulate to “be contrite”. Contriteness is in need of allowing a generous admitting of need for His grace and mercy which according to John 1:12. “The spiritual man judges all things, (examines all things), the mind of Christ faces the Truth to lead is closer to Christ” individually. This is a problem because you guys are trying to use “group think” when as Spiritual man in Christ, you must listen for the Spirit to guide you. The REAL PROBLEM IS that the authority of the church is being confused with the government. The Government has encroached on the church and the church has encroached upon the Constitutional government. I’m sorry but i must leave this conversation. Because you are skipping around from issue to issue. Boundaries must be respected for the Protestant Christian church, for the Constitutional government, and for relating one on one or two people. I don’t agree that you Michael are born-again because you are using human wisdom. And sorry but your arguments are all over the place.
Biblical responses are the best responses!
Absolutely amazing conversation! So many clarifying information, made me search inwardly in the process❤
I really like Dr. Kruger's office design and especially the bookshelves! I've always wanted my own library...maybe sometime in the future...
Awesome discussion. I’d be very interested to here what Colby Martin thinks about this and his side to it.
The best lies were originally predicated on a subtle partial truth. The devil is in the details. quite literally
Sean, please do a follow up to answer your questions about practical implications! Thanks for continuing to teach with wisdom and grace.
Good suggestion, thanks!
Great interview and talking about the weakness of the church and the biblical truth. We need to be careful not to assume people are "Progressive Christians", without discussing the Creed first.
Thanks Trudie!
Such a helpful discussion. Thank you so much for teaching deep truths in such a clear and 'simple' way.
You bet!
Please be clear that there is a difference between substitutionary atonement and penal substitution. The issue isn’t that God is wrathful, the issue is that God cannot forgive without killing someone else.
Progressive Christians don’t like to judge others, unless those others are racists, or think that egalitarianism is wrong, etc.. in those cases they are extremely judgemental. They basically pick and choose which things are to be judged based on their own preferences.
Christianity won’t hesitate to judge sin where the Bible declares it, be it racism or homosexuality.
Of course with judgement there is also the grace of forgiveness offered.
I really appreciate how well spoken Dr. Kruger was. His explanations were clear and concise without any longwinded diatribes and he spoke with grace. He's a guy I'd like to be friends with!
He also has a radio voice
Agreed. He’s VERY thoughtful and gracious.
@@SeanMcDowell Both guest 'and host' were magnificent in their roles.
@@WISE1 Wow, thanks. I enjoyed this one!
@@WISE1 As I'm sure you know, Dr. McDowell always represents Christ well!
What gets me is Kruger's stance toward Progressive Christianity. He draws a big line between Christians and those who are not, and then he very quickly puts Progressive Christians on the other side. So he's totally focused on "those people" and pays no attention to his own possible errors and what can be learned from other people. (I made a video about this ruclips.net/video/cqAZXUlAA40/видео.html). It's about how we can get along with "those" people.) One of Kruger's main premises is that Liberal Christianity and Progressive Christianity are the same things--and they are not.
Liberal Christianity is an outflow of Modern thought--it's very rationalistic. A liberal Christian doesn't believe that God is active in the world--no miracles--and no resurrection. A liberal Christian doesn't consider the Bible authoritative or inspired--instead, he looks to culture, science, and experience for truth. A liberal Christian considers Jesus a great moral teacher. A liberal Christian considers salvation to be individual or social or moral or intellectual. And it considers Christ's return as mythological, in the worst use of the word.
In a nutshell, Liberal Christianity is a rejection of a lot of the central tenets of orthodox Christianity--it is a tradition that grew out of the rationalism of the Enlightenment.
Western Conservative Evangelicalism, as opposed to Orthodox, Christianity, too, is heavily influenced by the Enlightenment. It accepts forms of the ancillary baggage that goes along with the Enlightenment--rationalism, categorization, judgment, dichotomies, argument, clarity, hierarchy, Western, racism, patriarchy, power, Protestantism, institutions, and uniformity.
Progressive Christianity is a questioning of this baggage. Will some of this questioning lead people to reject Christianity or to become Liberal Christians? Yes. Especially if there is no corrective conversation by which both Conservative and Progressive Christianity begin to meaningfully step out of the idolatrous influence of the Enlightenment--Modernism, or the idols that follow.
Again, Christianity always adopts things from the culture in which it is found. This is a mixed blessing. Some of it's good. Some of it's syncretistic. --How do we sort it all out? through dialogue and conversation. Not through demonizing, dismissiveness, reductionism, or fallacious representations of either side. Through humble conversation and dialogue.
For more on all this, feel free to browse this playlist: ruclips.net/p/PL1gm0llPBjDItDG1FJbWfYIhY6-jZHrZT
Interesting
I do not think this was demonizing or fallaciously representing progressive Christianity. He pointed out where there is some truth and where the evangelical church has failed (and the catholic church for that matter).
@@inchristalone25 I think you are right about this particular video. They didn't fall into the category of demonizing, but their thinking is directed only outward, and doesn't consider enough that this movement is an honest response to some issues that need conversation. Consequently, the demonizers will find much here to affirm their demonizing. Thanks for replying. And maybe for watching the video 😉
Dr. Krueger, thank you for your book and ensuring that Christian’s or those who will come to Christ are not mislead or confused. Amen.
“Progressive Christianity” is an oxymoron.
Nope, it's not. Christianity is inherently progressive. Progressing towards the kingdom of God. It's a religion in which history has a goal it's progressing towards. Conservative Christianity doesn't exist. People who believe that are fooling themselves. There is nothing conservative about Christianity. The people who "reinvented" the faith were the evangelicals in the 19th century. They made a farce out of Christianity. What evangelicals believe today in the US isn't Christianity at all. It's an old testament based Jewish sect.
Indeed, everybody knows that Christianity is always regressive.
Only to someone who doesn't understand either one.
It is an accepted fallacy in America that Conservative and Christian is the same thing.
@@davepugh2519Totally wrong. Secular is how many atheists prefer to be called. There is also a very large number of political progressive Christians.
@@jraelien5798 you’re right, believing abortion is murder, men and women should be the only ones allowed to marry and men are men and women are women makes them left wing extremist I guess. Lol
Great interview, Sean. Well done. An important subject and book.
It all has a singular objective.... to remove the fear of God. And this is occurring in many many churches to varying degrees, as each kettle is at a different point of boiling the frogs.
Several years ago, while speaking to a group of Christian women about how our culture tries to shape our world view in opposition to Scripture, I gave the example of the movie "Brokeback Mountain" as promoting the homosexual lifestyle as both normal and romantic. I received an angry comment card from a woman who made my point by defending the movie saying that it portrayed a "beautiful romance" and that I was being "close minded about love."
Unfortunately progressive Christians put romance ahead of loving God and his commandments with all of our heart, soul, mind and strength.
Thanks for this Sean. I appreciate your gracious approach and willingness to listen to the other side. What I would find more helpful would be to have a representative of the other side present to rebut Dr. Kruger's points. Also a live webinar would be great where the participants could post questions. I for one had questions that would clarify for me Dr. Kruger's position and to ensure he is not mis-characterizing progressives. As was stated at the beginning "progressive" represents a range of opinions as does "conservative". For that reason I am leery of blanket labeling people in order to dismiss them and prefer to address issues on an individual basis. Thanks again.
It would be VERY useful to folk to list the works you so often refer to. Is it Goli? Gholi? Golly? And also Mucken? Machen? Mauchen?
THANK YOU....I have been seriously confused on this issue as so many American churches have 'boiled' it down to a political leaning.....that progressive Christian's are 'lefties'. It seems I AM a conservative Christian who sees no contradiction with that and caring for the disenfranchised in our society...lol
As a pastor I passed a copy on to a college student in my congregation who had been exposed to progressive beliefs.
It’s a great, quick book!
I think this was a good concise explanation on the overall core beliefs of progressive christianity.
Isn't this one of the signs of the last days? Jesus said to not be deceived by these false teachers.
Those signs are present in every generation.
Thanks! This conversation teases out the luminous beauty of Christianity. “It is finished.”
Great show, very thoughtful.
After reading Charles Finney's systematic theology I decided to go to the United Church of Christ, a progressive Christian Church. They believe in the Trinity. They do believe that the Gospel should have an impact on the socially oppressed people. Freeing slave, women's suffrage, the temperance movement, the holiness movement, the civil rights are movements were all the result of their theology. The Southern Baptist Church and many of what you call historical Christian Churches have opposed social change. If you read Justin, or Clement of Alexandria, Irenaeus or others of the early Church they do not speak like you do about historic Christianity. Irenaeus believed strongly in the concept of Jesus as an example. Clement of Alexandria said that "the highest and most perfect good is when one is able to lead someone from wrongdoing to right doing which is the very function of the law". Origen believed in reincarnation. It would seem to me that you would list all early Church fathers as progressives. Charles Finney said there is only one law and that is the law of eternal benevolence. This is why they fought so hard to oppose slavery even though the Southern Baptist held their Bibles and said, "The Bible says Slave server your masters". Stop continue being a NEW evangelical look at true historic Christianity. Christianity makes progress through history.
Progressive Christianity is neither.
This so informative…..thanks Sean for having Dr Kruger on your channel.
Merci beaucoups for this conversation! It was excellent and revealing and soooo thankful and praise for for His word! My my belief is in Jesus, my King And Savior!
I appreciated Dr Kruger's presentation. However, Christianity and Christians have been far too dogmatic in their traditional assertions.
Very few would argue that both have many, many problems; all of which may be traced to misinterpretation, mishandling, and misapplicaiation of Scripture - oftentimes absurd and dangerous.
Who is right? Truly no one is completely right!
Who or what do we trust!
Nevertheless, we can and should glean nuggets of truth from everyone [and everything under the sun].
We are - by grace - able to, invited to, and exhorted to seek, find, and recieve truth from 'The 'Spirit' of God' [God's Holy Spirit] rather than thru man's interpretations and quite limited understanding of Scripture (or the worlds' paradigms).
One of the most important - and missed - teachings of Jesus Christ is His emphasis of the errors of the religious leaders of his day [ours too!] and their emphasis of traditions and accepted beliefs. We are all prone to this!
Hence, we would do well to keep Jesus' emphasis in mind when holding tightly to our own traditional beliefs and paradigm.
Thanks for reading.
Great discussion
I have given up on categories. I don’t view the Bible as the literal Word of God. To me the Bible contains Truth, not facts. The Truth is revealed by the Spirit when we meditate and ‘chew’ on the words and themes that are recorded. This is when God speaks to us. I am no longer concerned with the scientific or historical veracity of events recorded in the pages. I’m no longer concerned with trying to reconcile the contradictions of various Gospel accounts. I used to spend significant time in pursuit of these things. They are distractions.
Jesus is the ultimate Truth. Relationship with our loving Father through Jesus our brother is the goal and prize. Living our lives in accordance with the words, examples and instructions attributed to Jesus is the pathway
Have you looked at the "minimal facts" related to the resurrection account presented by Gary Habermas? If so, do you find them reliable? If you don't find them reliable, can you share why? Thank you.
@@philly5330 I have the book. I personally find the testimony of Paul in his letters persuasive. He experienced a dramatic encounter with the risen Jesus and his life was changed. The birth and growth of the Christian movement points to remarkable historical events happening. I find these compelling, along with my own personal encounter and experience.
@@tomesplin4130 I do as well. Thanks for replying Tom.
A lot of what you are describing relates to the literary genres of the Bible. The "contradictions" in the Gospels are due to being Greco-Roman historiographies. The authors were not interested reporting precise facts about Jesus in chronological order. Their writings were more focused on the character of Jesus written to specific audiences. Attempts at completely objective history are a relatively modern invention.
@@tomesplin4130 Amen the testimony of Paul was what convinced me Jesus really did raise from the dead.
Oh Sean, Mochen for Machen. As a pastor in the OPC, that hurt my ears. :)
Haha, yeah, I hear you!
Nothing new here. Our Opposer has the same tricks that he used over and over and over and over again. Take the truth, but add some lie to it to achieve your goals. He did from the beginning with Eve, he did it with His Creator in the dessert, and he won't stop until he will be bound forever. That is his nature. God bless you guys and thanks Sean for for everything that you are doing!
Very wise and well thought out discussion. Thank you
The Meaning of the Term Hypostatic Union as Applied to Christ
The English word hypostasis is derived from a Greek word meaning “essence, actual being, reality” (William F. Arndt and F. Wilbur Gingrich, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, p. 854). Thus, it refers to the real essence of a person or thing. As applied to Christ, it is related to the issue of the real essence of the incarnated Jesus Christ.
In earlier articles, we saw that He is both deity and humanity in essence. The incarnated Jesus Christ has a complete divine nature and a complete human nature inseparably united in one person. Thus, He is a theanthropic person, a God-Man. The word theanthropic is derived from the combination of two Greek words: theos (God) and anthropos (man). This union of two complete natures in Jesus Christ has been called “the hypostatic union” by theologians because it is the real essence of the incarnated Christ.
The Meaning of the Term Nature
The term nature, when used in expressions such as divine nature and human nature, refers to a unique combination of attributes that determines the kind of a being or thing. A divine nature is a unique combination of attributes that makes a being divine instead of an angel, an animal, a plant, or a human being. A human nature is a unique combination of attributes that makes a being a human being instead of an angel, an animal, a plant, or a divine being.
Because a nature determines the kind of being, the union of a complete divine nature and a complete human nature in the incarnated Christ makes Him a God-Man. No other being possessed the union of these two natures prior to the incarnation of Christ, and no other being will possess it in the future. This means that the incarnated Jesus Christ is the only God-Man and, therefore, is a unique being.
The Biblical Revelation of Christ’s Hypostatic Union
At least two Old Testament passages foretold that the Messiah would be a God-Man, with deity and humanity united in the same person.
Isaiah 9:6-7: By revelation of God, the Prophet Isaiah presented several names that would apply to the Messiah. According to Edward J. Young, those names “are accurate descriptions and designations of His being. In the Bible the name indicates the character, essence or nature of a person or object” (The Book of Isaiah, vol. I, p. 331). In an earlier article, we saw that two of those names (“Mighty God” [el gibbor] and “Everlasting Father”) ascribed deity to the Messiah.
In addition, Isaiah declared that the Messiah would be a child born. Because deity is not born but humanity is, this declaration indicated that the Messiah would also be a human being.
Isaiah foretold that the Messiah would be a God-Man and, therefore, a unique being.
Thus, according to Isaiah Prophecies
Good book hoping to get it soon here in philippines.
Jesus wasn't walking around being winsom...he wasn't walking around being rude...but he behaved in different ways for different situations. When he met a pharisees he could make Twitter posts look downright kind. Let's get honest...I mean...if Jesus had gone around being "winsom" so many people would not have hated him.
A very clear and concise explanation of progressive thought. 5 stars for presentation 1 star for his personal adherence to TULIP.
I have a church service with women at the jail in my town. When I meet new women who come to church, I often ask them this: "Do you know Jesus as your savior?" if they say yes, then I ask this: "can you explain what that means to you?" What they say next gives me a pretty good understanding of where they are in regards to the Gospel. For example, they might say something like this: "I have gone to church my whole life. I'm a good person." Sometimes they say, "He saved me from my sins. He died on the cross for me. I'm saved by grace."
At church, there was a young man who answered the question like this: "Jesus saved me from shame. He saved me from fear. He saved me from depression." He gave a very long list that left out the most important saving of Jesus. One of the men in our church prompted, "Brother?" and the young man blurted out, "But he didn't save me from sin! I'm not a sinner!" We had a much clearer understanding of what was going on with that young man.
I would like to hear Dr. Kruger explain what exactly he means by ‘fight for justice' or human reconciliation. Thanks
Soooooo helpful! Thank you!
The part about being able to ask questions and have doubts is amazing!!! I grew up Mormon where it was shamed to ever have doubts. They were famous for saying “doubt your doubts” and believed that you could know for certain from a feeling alone.
There is a book called The CES Letter where someone who taught for the church ended up leaving because he had lots of questions about the churches teaches using their own books. They went ignored and have remained so for a decade while the church bleeds membership. Anything on their website that tries to answer these questions, including how church text teaching are hypocritical of each other, are totally white washed and the facts often made up and full of logical fallacies.
So I love that I can go to a pastor with questions and it’s ok because it’s not seen as a threat of me believing still! 😃
Very much Needed video!
I think it's incredibly generous to suppose that progressives are half true. I'd say it's about 20% and that's generous.
I want to know why are men and women in the body of Christ giving all these manmade names to being a Christian? What is a progressive, liberal, conservative, fundamental, evangelical, Pentecostal, apostolic CHRISTIAN? Either you are a follower of Jesus Christ or men and women have the form of godliness and denying God’s power and the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ and don’t want to have the Holy Spirit lead and guide them.
As a Christian I am so tired and sick of denominations, false teachers, who seem to have only seminary and theological schooling, or nothing but a desire who want to know God through an intellectual perspective, or are lukewarm Christians, or really love God but are struggling submitting their will to his. The Bible is our guide, relationship, our heart, and the love of God should always be at the foundation. All of these manmade names to describe Jesus Body of Christ is unneeded, an embarrassment, and is no better than being a Sadducee or Pharisse! If pastors and leaders were teaching and encouraging the congregation to study outside of services we might see change and more Christians who are not solely relying pastors. We are all working out our salvation with fear and trembling.
Jesus is Not God, He is the Only Beggotton Son of God, not just a good moral teacher. That's why we are listening to Him!
Either you believe in the Bible as God’s inherent Word or you don’t. A lot of people think it’s ok to mur&$@ someone, if they feel it necessary. I would bet the people on these clips would completely deny that a person who “feels” that way is completely wrong.
22:29 To tell someone they are wrong for passing judgement on someone else is not a paradox, nor is it hypocritical or even a fallacy. If someone is being cruel or passing judgment or condemnation on someone, this is not their place, this is God’s place (to pass judgement, not to be cruel lol), so then correcting this bad behavior is not the same as passing judgement. I think anyone knows the difference. Got a little into the semantics weeds there, but it’s important to recognize the difference.
It’s funny to smirk about those paradoxical progressives, but we absolutely ought to see the difference between discernment, judgement, judgementalism and condemnation and not just smoosh them all into one word “judge”.
Hey Sean
Are you monetizing this channel? Do you realize what you are doing?
Thank you for this interview. A family member has gotten into this stuff and it's heartbreaking to see what it's doing to him.
You should probably sit down with some so-called “progressive Christians” and hear from them what they actually believe and why.
Kruger is very solid.
Stick to the basics, apply it to your life then study and grow with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
You cannot have two Masters, you love one and hate the other.
Either you follow the Bible or not!
So, basically, number six is the direct move toward narcissism.
I just watched a movie with Dr Michael Kruger called "The God Who Speaks" right here on RUclips, great movie by the way you should check it out if you haven't seen it!
#Red
Thanks, I'll check it out.
@@stevenwiederholt7000 No problem, I hope you enjoy it.
Great suggestion, thanks!
If Jesus was not God was not a good moral teacher. He would’ve been at psychopath. No one says things like deny your family, give up everything, even your life or you’re not worthy of me. That is megalomania on a scale unimaginable. If I wasn’t a believer, I wouldn’t waste my time in church. I don’t have to go to church to have community.
They know Jesus is God but they aren't willing to give up control.
Something James Lindsay says about Progressives. They use the same language, but a different dictionary.
Same as Calvinists
@@peterfox7663
What will you do when you get to Heaven and find it chock full of Calvinists?
True, just keep in mind Lindsay is probably referring to political progressives.
@@SeanMcDowell
It appears it is infiltrating everywhere including The Church.
These “commandments” sound like they were written by Joel Osteen!
Lovely! We must speak truth, but in love.
Neither is Reformed theology biblical Christianity.
Kruger’s book “ heresy before orthodoxy” is most excellent
Stephen, I think it's, The Heresy of Orthodoxy: How Contemporary Culture's Fascination with Diversity Has Reshaped Our Understanding of Early Christianity
Thank you so very much 😊!
I don't want to meet sean at the poker table. no tells.
Thank you for this!!
Authority in the church has been so horrifically abused it no longer has anything to morally stand on. If they actually cared about showing understanding of how horrid they have acted, they would graciously abdicate their power both in government and in culture. They can then work to rebuild themselves as an institution worth the power they claim they ought to wield.
Great instruction, very informative. Also you do a great job at interviewing people generally, and consistently. At this point I would say you have a gift Sean McDowell. God bless.
Christianity is The SON YESHUA HAMASHIACH is
my REDEEMER,my WAY,my TRUTH,my LIFE.ian =
I am not.Brother Rohr lacks understanding,appre-
hension,comprehension,appreciation of First CO-
RINTHIANS FIFTEEN 🙏 🕊 ✝️ 📖 🛐 🧭 🤲
As we talk about judgmentalism I think it's important to make the distinction that when God saves us, he gives us a new heart of love and mercy for people which continues throughout our Christian lives. The point is, "For it is God who wortheth in me, both to will and to do of His good pleasure." And, "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." From start to finish it is God brings us salvation and God who then perfects us from the inside out, throughout our Christian lives. This cannot be done by ourselves. Thank you both for your excellent program.
I am very a conservative Christian. I believe with absolute certainty that The Apostle Paul meant what he said in all instances INCLUDING his castigation of the Galatian Church for turning to another Gospel.
The question then arises "where did this doctrine actually originate?"
The doctrine of substitutionary justification is justifiably under suspicion. Why? That position can very easily be "proven" from scripture. But so also can a denial of it. Much of the proof texts used by it's proponents must be contorted to fit the narrative.
Not so with the Baptismal model loosely described as God freely forgiving the truly repentant, and empowering them through the Resurrection to live righteous and sanctified lives.
Both can be readily proven but which is the actual view of the Apostle?
This is definitely not any sort of a progressive position.
My confidence is in the deity and salvation authority of Jesus: There is only one God and only one Mediator between God and man, and that’s the Lord Jesus Christ. He is fully God and fully man. He understands us. Jesus came to us to atone for our sins and reconcile us to God. He also came to show us The Way in which we should be walking in the will of God, to make manifest God’s will in a way we can understand. He is our Savior and our example for He is perfect.
We need to condemn both progressive Jesus AND republican Jesus for both are false gods. Don’t sugarcoat the latter while ragging on the former.
There is only Jesus (no political party), and He makes it very clear who He is.
God and Jesus are being deconstructed by both political parties because politics is the “world’s” system, not His.
Two things I am certain of 🤔 I am a sinner 👿😡😈 😠 👺 🤬 👹, and the world groans under the
weight of the fall.I am lost,in the dark,in a state of decay,not ADONAI.The church is not a being,but we are.The Progressive Power that be are like
the Wizard of Oz.Look at the image,not at me.
The church is just a code word for I have problem
with the individuals running things 🙃🤓🤭🙂😎
It seems like how back in the 90s when I was a teenager the leftist buzz word was ‘’tolerance’’ but in reality it wasn’t tolerance being taught it was actually acceptance of all beliefs and practices and lifestyles without criticism or condemnation as if they are all equally valid because truth is relative. In reality it became essentially tolerance for all except the intolerant. The woke ppl of the 90s cancelled ‘’the intolerant’’ in a more subtle way but it was still the beginnings of cancel culture. Nowadays the leftists make no pretense of tolerance of all beliefs and practices and lifestyles but instead they clearly say only their woke progressive agenda will be tolerated
36:16 it seems around this section that there is being made a distinction between the people, that is, the congregation and “the church”. Do we recognize that the church is the congregation? Or do we imply that the church is the “leadership” or the “clergy”? For how can a “church” operate in a man abusive and heavy handed way toward the people of the people themselves are in fact what comprises the church?
Regeneration first !!!
I appreciate this
Many untruths in Christianity have become Myths, right from the apostolic times. I have a Ytube video series called 'Myths in so-called Christianity', #1 is 'Grace is merited', the videos are in my full name "Simon John Skinner'.
Lost me at Richard Rhor
My Oh My 😏 Wow Just Wow 😉 Having fellow-
ship with the RESURRECTION,the LIFE is not che-
rish 🤥🤒 aw 🤕🥺