I’ve got a son and his friend across the street who want to go climbing with me. I told them if they were serious that I wanted them to learn how to tie some simple knots. Your entire video is what I’m going to ask them to learn
Is it on purpose that these knots have the load bearing strand going on the top, which means that on a fall it will nicely strangle the lower strand and make it really hard to untie the knot?
Check out “hard is easy”’s RUclips channel. He has a great video on proper/wrong ways to tie a rethreaded figure 8. He also shows the consequences of tying it either way.
You can also take the excess of the tail and route it back into the F8. Step 1: Take the tail, once complete, and go under the rope. Step 2: Retrace under the first bite you come to and stop. When done properly this will help you untie the knot easier after a big fall. This is particularly useful when lead climbing to set up a top rope that you will then repel down after. A great video on this is ruclips.net/video/lAsNcFz2jOQ/видео.html (5:24 if you want to skip to that part)
Hello Joshua, Thank you for you excellent video presentation. I am going to give you some critical feedback - and its all in good faith (to help you improve). In point form, for clarity: [ ] at 0:44: You mention "give it a twist" - the initial loop that you form at 0:42 has 'Z' chirality. If people form a twist as you suggest at 0:44, this would ceate a loop of 'S' chirality - and would be the mirror opposite. This is a common issue - in that many people dont understand the concept of 'handedness'. You have a natural tendency to tie your F8 knots with 'Z' chirality. Hold your completed F8 knot adjacent to a plane mirror and the reflected image you see will be the opposite 'S' chirality. Both versions are valid. Right hand dominant people have a natural tendency to tie their knots with 'Z' chirality. This leads me to think you are right hand dominant. Dont ignore left hand dominant people! [ ] at 2:30: The backup stopper knot is not required. This is because the F8 is an inherently secure knot. Also, the backup stopper knot is properly described as a 'strangle' - because it 'strangles' around the Standing Part (SPart). Not all knots are inherently secure - the good news is that the F8 is an inherently secure knot. Just make sure that you leave a minimum of 100mm tail. [ ] at 2:48: What you have tied is a 'dressing state' - it is not an energy stable dressing. You did not explain that further manipulation is required to achieve and energy stable dressing. If you leave your F8 knot in the dressing state as you show at 2:48, the knot will grossly distort under load. [ ] at 3:04: You did not explain that this is the 'TIB' (Tiable In the Bight) method. The definition of 'TIB' is that the knot can be tied without access to either end. The opposite also applies - in that the knot can be untied without access to either end. Only some knots are 'TIB' (ie, not all knots have this property). [ ] at 3:22: Again - you have achieved a 'dressing state' - it is not energy stable. Further manipulation is required to achieve an energy stable dressing. [ ] at 3:24: Backup stopper knot is NOT required. Just make sure you leave a minimum of 100mm tail. [ ] at 5:40: You take a length of rope using body cues to achieve the right length. That works for you, but it may not work for others. What you should have done is got a tape measure and actually measured the correct length. Once people knot that length, they can scale it accordingly on their body. [ ] at 7:05: The dressing you now achieved is different from the dressing you demonstrated earlier in your video. This leaves the impression that you aren't really aware of what the optimum dressing is for an F8 knot. Also, the backup stopper knot isn't something that is essential - people who say that you need a backup stopper knot are simply parroting what they overheard or saw others do (without check the facts). [ ] at 7:14: Your comment that people can "see from a mile away"... actually some people would immediately notice that your demonstrated dressing state is incorrect! ... Joshua, I have been critical - but, it is given in good faith to help you improve the accuracy of your content. I hope that you will receive my feedback as it is intended :) Mark Gommers June 2021
You keep mentioning the stopper knot/safety knot being useless as long as you have 100mm of tail it is true that it’s not necessary to keep the figure 8 from slipping but since you need more than your minimum 100mm to tie a stopper knot it prevents that worse case scenario it never hurts to keep redundant safety measures.
@@iandonnelly6684 The main point is that the #1047 F8 eye knot is inherently secure. By definition, inherently secure knots do not require a 'backup stopper' knot to achieve security. To illustrate this point... the #1415 Double Fishermans (bend) is another example of an inherently secure knot. Here is a link to this knot to ensure there is no misunderstanding of what I am discussing... Link: www.animatedknots.com/double-fishermans-bend-knot When tying this 'end-to-end joining knot' - it is not necessary to also add additional backup stopper knots (one on each side)! A common application of this knot (ie bend) is to form a round sling in accessory cord (eg so you can tie a 'Prusik hitch'). Due to this knots inherent security and stability - adding additional backup stopper knots (either side) is completely unnecessary. If you can visualize and accept the example of #1415 Double Fishermans bend - then it should be a simple matter to apply the same concept to a #1047 F8 eye knot. That is, the #1047 F8 eye knot is also inherently secure...and therefore does not require any form of backup stopper knot. Of course, it goes without saying that all knots used in life critical applications require a certain level of due diligence and care when tying. The same can be said of fitting and adjusting your climbing harness. A paranoid person would feel compelled to wear two (2) harnesses - in case one of the harnesses failed! Or - a paranoid person would never lead climb on a single strand of rope - opting instead for always lead climb on double ropes. And a really paranoid person would lead climb on double ropes - with each rope being independently belayed by a separate person (to mitigate human error). The locking carabiner that attaches your belay device to your harness is another single point of failure... a paranoid person would always use two (2) locking carabiners with their belay device (which is difficult or impossible with most cam assisted self-locking devices - so they would likely use a manual braking device such as an 'ATC'). ... The 'EBSB' Bowline and 'Scotts locked' Bowline are additional examples of inherently secure knots that do not require a backup stopper knot (assuming of course that the person tying the knots has exercised due care and diligence - as with all life critical knots).
You can also take the excess of the tail and route it back into the F8. Step 1: Take the tail, once complete, and go under the rope. Step 2: Retrace under the first bite you come to and stop. When done properly this will help you untie the knot easier after a big fall. This is particularly useful when lead climbing to set up a top rope that you will then repel down after. I’ll update if I can find a video or picture of this configuration.
Weird. I have never heard anyone say you should leave enough slack to do a double fisherman's knot. Is that really a thing? AFAIK that's only something you'd do if you have way too much slack so you have to control it somehow. It certainly doesn't provide any safety.
I’ve got a son and his friend across the street who want to go climbing with me. I told them if they were serious that I wanted them to learn how to tie some simple knots. Your entire video is what I’m going to ask them to learn
By far you make the best videos on tying knots on RUclips
măpișpecapac Thanks! 🤙🏻
Is it on purpose that these knots have the load bearing strand going on the top, which means that on a fall it will nicely strangle the lower strand and make it really hard to untie the knot?
Only the fig8 on a bight had the load strand on top- the rethread was fine.
Check out “hard is easy”’s RUclips channel. He has a great video on proper/wrong ways to tie a rethreaded figure 8. He also shows the consequences of tying it either way.
.jgm.
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@@staceybailey2000 agreed. Sums up my feelings exactly
Thank you for your teaching 😊
I learned it as (as the end of the rope travels) Over-Around-Down or Under-Around-Up
Best teacher of knots on you tube! Said it once I’ll say it again!
My dad is teaching me how to climb so im training right now so is my friend so this vid helps us out a lot thx so much
Awesome …
Thank you
Great tutorial!!!!!!!!!
That last 10 seconds you climbed up like it was nothing 😱. Thanks for the bunny ear figure 8
It's still twisted, you gotta dress it well!
Awesome job
You can also take the excess of the tail and route it back into the F8.
Step 1: Take the tail, once complete, and go under the rope.
Step 2: Retrace under the first bite you come to and stop.
When done properly this will help you untie the knot easier after a big fall. This is particularly useful when lead climbing to set up a top rope that you will then repel down after.
A great video on this is ruclips.net/video/lAsNcFz2jOQ/видео.html (5:24 if you want to skip to that part)
Good stuff man! Thanks for keeping it Barney style for a new guy
John H 😂 anytime!
Hello Joshua,
Thank you for you excellent video presentation.
I am going to give you some critical feedback - and its all in good faith (to help you improve).
In point form, for clarity:
[ ] at 0:44: You mention "give it a twist" - the initial loop that you form at 0:42 has 'Z' chirality. If people form a twist as you suggest at 0:44, this would ceate a loop of 'S' chirality - and would be the mirror opposite. This is a common issue - in that many people dont understand the concept of 'handedness'. You have a natural tendency to tie your F8 knots with 'Z' chirality. Hold your completed F8 knot adjacent to a plane mirror and the reflected image you see will be the opposite 'S' chirality. Both versions are valid. Right hand dominant people have a natural tendency to tie their knots with 'Z' chirality. This leads me to think you are right hand dominant. Dont ignore left hand dominant people!
[ ] at 2:30: The backup stopper knot is not required. This is because the F8 is an inherently secure knot. Also, the backup stopper knot is properly described as a 'strangle' - because it 'strangles' around the Standing Part (SPart). Not all knots are inherently secure - the good news is that the F8 is an inherently secure knot. Just make sure that you leave a minimum of 100mm tail.
[ ] at 2:48: What you have tied is a 'dressing state' - it is not an energy stable dressing. You did not explain that further manipulation is required to achieve and energy stable dressing. If you leave your F8 knot in the dressing state as you show at 2:48, the knot will grossly distort under load.
[ ] at 3:04: You did not explain that this is the 'TIB' (Tiable In the Bight) method. The definition of 'TIB' is that the knot can be tied without access to either end. The opposite also applies - in that the knot can be untied without access to either end. Only some knots are 'TIB' (ie, not all knots have this property).
[ ] at 3:22: Again - you have achieved a 'dressing state' - it is not energy stable. Further manipulation is required to achieve an energy stable dressing.
[ ] at 3:24: Backup stopper knot is NOT required. Just make sure you leave a minimum of 100mm tail.
[ ] at 5:40: You take a length of rope using body cues to achieve the right length. That works for you, but it may not work for others. What you should have done is got a tape measure and actually measured the correct length. Once people knot that length, they can scale it accordingly on their body.
[ ] at 7:05: The dressing you now achieved is different from the dressing you demonstrated earlier in your video. This leaves the impression that you aren't really aware of what the optimum dressing is for an F8 knot. Also, the backup stopper knot isn't something that is essential - people who say that you need a backup stopper knot are simply parroting what they overheard or saw others do (without check the facts).
[ ] at 7:14: Your comment that people can "see from a mile away"... actually some people would immediately notice that your demonstrated dressing state is incorrect!
...
Joshua, I have been critical - but, it is given in good faith to help you improve the accuracy of your content.
I hope that you will receive my feedback as it is intended :)
Mark Gommers June 2021
Very insightful and informative. Thanks you!
You keep mentioning the stopper knot/safety knot being useless as long as you have 100mm of tail it is true that it’s not necessary to keep the figure 8 from slipping but since you need more than your minimum 100mm to tie a stopper knot it prevents that worse case scenario it never hurts to keep redundant safety measures.
@@iandonnelly6684 The main point is that the #1047 F8 eye knot is inherently secure. By definition, inherently secure knots do not require a 'backup stopper' knot to achieve security. To illustrate this point... the #1415 Double Fishermans (bend) is another example of an inherently secure knot.
Here is a link to this knot to ensure there is no misunderstanding of what I am discussing...
Link: www.animatedknots.com/double-fishermans-bend-knot
When tying this 'end-to-end joining knot' - it is not necessary to also add additional backup stopper knots (one on each side)!
A common application of this knot (ie bend) is to form a round sling in accessory cord (eg so you can tie a 'Prusik hitch').
Due to this knots inherent security and stability - adding additional backup stopper knots (either side) is completely unnecessary.
If you can visualize and accept the example of #1415 Double Fishermans bend - then it should be a simple matter to apply the same concept to a #1047 F8 eye knot.
That is, the #1047 F8 eye knot is also inherently secure...and therefore does not require any form of backup stopper knot.
Of course, it goes without saying that all knots used in life critical applications require a certain level of due diligence and care when tying.
The same can be said of fitting and adjusting your climbing harness. A paranoid person would feel compelled to wear two (2) harnesses - in case one of the harnesses failed! Or - a paranoid person would never lead climb on a single strand of rope - opting instead for always lead climb on double ropes. And a really paranoid person would lead climb on double ropes - with each rope being independently belayed by a separate person (to mitigate human error).
The locking carabiner that attaches your belay device to your harness is another single point of failure... a paranoid person would always use two (2) locking carabiners with their belay device (which is difficult or impossible with most cam assisted self-locking devices - so they would likely use a manual braking device such as an 'ATC').
...
The 'EBSB' Bowline and 'Scotts locked' Bowline are additional examples of inherently secure knots that do not require a backup stopper knot (assuming of course that the person tying the knots has exercised due care and diligence - as with all life critical knots).
You can also take the excess of the tail and route it back into the F8.
Step 1: Take the tail, once complete, and go under the rope.
Step 2: Retrace under the first bite you come to and stop.
When done properly this will help you untie the knot easier after a big fall. This is particularly useful when lead climbing to set up a top rope that you will then repel down after. I’ll update if I can find a video or picture of this configuration.
Why need 100mm tail?
That double anchor knot is genius! I'm guessing it should work for rappelling or rope solo right?
Great videos by the way, very helpful 👍
Thanks! yeah works great for either. 🤙🏻
that is so cool.
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Weird. I have never heard anyone say you should leave enough slack to do a double fisherman's knot. Is that really a thing?
AFAIK that's only something you'd do if you have way too much slack so you have to control it somehow. It certainly doesn't provide any safety.
Akegata42 yeah some climbing gyms want to see and double fisherman’s knot I don’t think you need it but I added it in the video just FYI.
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