THE PROBLEM WITH THE DARK KNIGHT 'S RACHEL DAWES
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- Опубликовано: 7 июн 2024
- This is a video about Rachel Dawes and the women who played her.
Maggie Gyllenhaal and Katie Holmes, not in that order.
The Dark Knight 's love interest.
#batman #thedarkknight #darkknight
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Развлечения
I'm imagining an alternate version of The Dark Knight Rises where Rachel survived the barrel explosion room instead of Harvey, and somehow they decided to re-cast her again.
I do wonder how she would've reacted if Harvey died and she got her face burned, would she have snapped like he did?
@@billybarnett9518 So this is my theory: After Rachel gets scarred, she passes out immediately and is sent to the hospital. Unlike with Harvey, she is not visited by the Joker, but she does figure out he's gonna blow up the building, so she drags herself out in time. She goes home to recover, and her story ends in TDK. However, in TDKR, she sees the Bane broadcast revealing the Harvey Dent lie. This is when she snaps. She joins a gang of Gotham citizens who kill any escaped Arkham or Blackgate prisoner they encounter. Then she encounters Batman, where he has to talk her out of trying to shoot him, and she berates him for lying about Harvey. It'll be the usual Nolan style philosophy discussion.
I don't know how I'd end her story. Does she get redeemed? Does she die a hero or a villain? I haven't decided yet.
Edit: The Harvey Dent lie wouldn't make sense in this particular scenario, since he died in the barrel explosion. Instead, they lie about Gordon. They will say he tried to save Harvey but didn't get there in time. Now Rachel wants revenge against Batman and Gordon.
@@willverschneider1102that sounds like a What If scenario.
i guess where i got confused is why they felt the need to create a new love interest when he already had a myriad of them in the comics to pull from
According to the writers, they originally considered having Harvey Dent appear in Batman Begins, but the character of Rachel Dawes was created when they realized that they "couldn't do the character justice". She got Harvey's role as Bruce's friend, seems Harvey was originally gonna be the supporting character pre Two Face.
@@billybarnett9518that would've been interesting to see Harvey Dent already friends with Bruce wayne finding out that his friend is batman and the consequences on how it would effect his duality.
I just don't get the hate behind Katie Holmes. I thought she was actually good. Nothing against Maggie, whom I thought was good as well.
The way he worded Katie as "confused" was spot on imo. Maggie is an actress. Like a good one. She played layers.
@@mauricemaple1430 fair enough.
Katie was better than Maggie for sure
It’s why I prefer Batman begins over the dark Knight. Maggie played her as very boring and one dimensional not sure why people thought she some great actress. She really isn’t. She doesn’t have charisma.
The main problem is she is the one who fights with Scarecrow at the end than Batman.
Same… I wish she came back to play Rachel in the Dark Knight, no hate towards Maggie.
Regarding Katie's chemistry, she once talked in an interview about how she told Christian Bale the first time he showed up in Batman costumes, that he needed to go stand over there and not look at her because she was crushing so hard on him AS BATMAN. Not as Bruce Wayne; and even 'as Batman' she had to tone down her attraction to keep from being distracted. That isn't a bad thing, but y'know... it's a thing that affects her acting in this role.
"Has the cat got your tongue?"
I always saw it as Rachel being unable to bear the burden of being involved with someone that constantly pursues a potentially fatal crusade. She loves Bruce too much to see him risking his life.
Right but Vee Infuso has a good point that she chose Harvey Dent instead, whose introduction scene is the mafia trying to assassinate him in court and his life is only saved by a misfiring gun
Rachel Dawes is basically just Silver St. Cloud from the comics with a less ridiculous name.
How? Silver didn't grow up with Bruce. And Silver and Bruce had an active sex life - while Bruce and Rachel had two chaste kisses.
Silver St. Cloud is the love of Bruce's life. Rachel Dawes was just a little sister.
Apparently, Harvey Dent was originally supposed to be the supporting character in Begins, but apparently the writers weren't satisfied with his inclusion so they created Rachel Dawes.
Ironically, there was a character in the Post-Crisis universe named Rachel, but her last name wasn’t Dawes.
The role is written so poorly that half the audience didn’t realize there was an actress change up.
I remember when I saw Dark Knight in theaters for the first time and literally saying "who the fuck is this?" being so confused and I did see Batman Begins. I completely forgot about the Rachel character.
"Half" the audience didn't realize a change up in A list actress X to A list actress Y in arguably the most anticipated Hollywood sequel of all time? Pretty sure everyone noticed
Fucking stupid ass comment
Wtf does the quality of the character's writing have to do with people noticing a major supporting role previously played by KH now being played by MG
That's what Vicki Vale was in Batman 89
She was his only light in his world of darkness
No disrespect to Vicki I really liked her! I think that as is tho, she was a light, Rachel was a sun.
@@TECH097 That's probably because Michael Keaton Batman world was much more darker Then Christian Bale Batman.
Vicki had to deal with a lot more crazy then Rachel lol
@@thomasgoree7976 lol I like that! I just meant Rachel was Bruce's last link to his innocence while Vicki was the first person who ever saw his more vulnerable side other than Alfred.
@@TECH097 Yeah I know what you might and you are right
Silver St. Cloud is the light in Bruce's dark world until DC killed her off. Silver is the only woman to make Bruce happy.
What I've always wanted to know is whether or not Maggie Gyllenhaal would tease Heath Ledger about that time he and her brother were gay cowboy lovers. I mean cowboy gay lovers.
...gay lover cowboys...? Gay lovers who were both also cowboys.
It wasn't until I seen her next to Jake's sister that I realized just how beautiful Katie Holmes is😅
I wouldn't go that far because Maggie Gyllenhall was my pre-teen crush in *Donnie Darko* (2001, she was gorgeous in that movie); but I have to be objective, and admit that she did hit the wall pretty hard just before The Dark Knight (2008) =/
I definitely didn't notice this recast watching the movies in theaters but I do now
not gunna lie... had no idea they were supposed to be the same person for years.
"Has the cat got your tongue?" 😂
I thought the Rachel character was boring every time. Batman is too driven a character to even NEED a love interest. They need to start putting the "Bat-Family" in the movies for supporting roles.
She was written as a replacement for Harvey Dent in Begins, he was supposed to be the supporting character and Bruce's friend, but the writers felt they couldn't do him justice. Their solution was apparently to just write a new character.
Never even realized she was recasted
Are u dumb??
I remember after seeing The Dark Knight thinking "My God! What did Tom Cruise do to that poor girl!"
That was the most tragic thing in the dark knight and it almost broke Batman
I never really liked the actress in the Dark Knight film. The actress in Batman Begins was a better pick. Sadly we got Maggie Gyllenhaal for the Dark Knight.
I don’t know dude…I really disagree, I think Maggie in dark knight is mousy and wooden. I don’t buy her romance with Harvey or Bruce.
I think they were both fine. The recast didn't bother me.
A cute nerd? What’s the catch?
Cute and nerdy? What’s the catch?
@@flyingdutchman2442Dude, stop being creepy.
Not to be rude but.....
It really feels like she was only made to be apart of Two-Face's story (which isn't really saying much due to his lack of screen time as Two-Face and overshadowed by Joker)
According to the writers, Harvey Dent was originally the supporting character in Batman Begins as Bruce's friend, but they felt they couldn't do him justice. She started off as Harvey's replacement.
“Does the cat got your tongue?” I never cared for the first Rachel. I don’t even have memory of her performance. Mainly cause the dark knight is a movie stealing masterpiece thx to health ledger’s iconic performance in this series so I’ve seen that more times so I’m more familiar with the second Rachel over the first.
yes Vee, yes to all of this.
Am I the only one who took years to notice there was a casting change?! 😂
Imo the character shouldn't have been made a love interest, it's a problem with many writers where they lean heavily on the "childhood friends leads to adult romance" trope.
Yes it happens, and sure it's believable. But it's just as valid for a boy and a girl to just remain friends after growing up and not being interested in each other romantically.
Hollywood is just so obsessed with romance plots, and often force them onto characters or into stories that do not need them. If they were going to insist on it in the next film then it's good they found an actress who seemed more comfortable in that role playing that part.
But at the same time I felt, even if maybe they wanted to play with the idea Bruce felt something for her but she didn't besides being his friend, Rachel didn't need to be made into a love interest for Batman to feel the sense of tragedy from losing her in order to save Harvey.
A life long friend for Bruce would mean a lot, and they don't need to be childhood sweethearts to make Batman feel despair over her death.
And if anything it would have strengthened her as a character if she didn't need to also be forced into a romance.
Yeah Rachel not choosing the Bat was necessary but I think it threw everyone for a loop as well. The point Rachael was making was probably Harvey at some point is at least coming home can take vacations schedulable. Batman is technically who he is Bruce is more of a costume that's historically proven. Which is why Rachael choose Harvey which still went off the rails anyway.
I prefer katie holmes more than maggie gylennhaal.
Yea i too liked Katie Holmes!! Never liked Maggie ever.
I really liked Katie Holmes in Batman Begins actually. I really like Maggie Gyllenhaal, too. Idk what else to say.
Vee when are you going to make “The Problem With The Problem With The Problem With Apu”?
As always Mr. Infuso you are flawlessly correct with everything you say, and your opininon is totally objective truth about this subject.
This is the first time I've heard anyone claim Maggie Gyllenhaal was the superior actress for this role.
Of course, this role is right up there with Jenny from Forrest Gump in being hated by the fans regardless.
I heard Katie turned down reprising the role to do Mad Money hence why you guys got Maggie.
So true
Katie = Likeable character in Batman Begins, attractive woman, but not a great actor
Maggie = Unlikable in The Dark Knight, fugly, decent actress
Maggie is one of the main reasons I dislike The Dark Knight. That and how they wrote Bruce in the movie.
i didn't like the character but Maggie as Rachel was less annoying to me
I adore maggie Gyllenhaal
Rachel would’ve been perfect to the phantasm if we’re being honest bc the dark knight movie and the mask or the phantasm movie are kinda similar
Great vid.
“I” always thought Rachel was The Dark Knight.
Both Rachel’s and on the other side Gamble’s characters were the only ones who had to be killed due to the fact that neither one would play the Joker’s games.
But seeing how Gamble was technically supposed to live originally and they never did anything to sell the Rachel being the hero who would never change no matter what. So they both had to die idea.
It may just be bad writing.
Thanks for making this video! I think Rachel Dawes really got the short end of the stick in terms of story attention and her role-your points are valid, but at the end of the day they basically end up fridging her to make Bruce and Harvey sad, which makes the whole love triangle feel pointless-at least from my perspective.
Enjoy your videos! Thanks for offering up your thoughts
The fabulous Rachel Triplets, Dawes, Dawes and Green.
I like that in the video he mentioned they come off as 2 different characters. That to me is more of a writing issue than an acting issue. Katie didn’t have the lines Maggie did in TDK. I feel like TDK, they did a "reboot" of the Rachel character. This to me is less of an actor issue, in my opinion. I also like that Katie Holmes "looks like a newer person at her job/younger" but is still confident in her work. Maggie does great work too. I am just commenting that I am curious as to how Katie would have done with the script of TDK. Good video, nevertheless. I personally think this is more of a script rebooted the character issue than it is a new actress rebooting her. She clearly has more bada$$ lines in TDK which of courses makes it easier for Maggie to give us Female Boss energy.
So what will be next for Vee Infuso to criticise from the Dark Knight Trilogy? the Batmobile? The Bat Suit? The Bat?
His is criticism of Katie Holmes is a bit too much, she played Rachel Dawes very well, and her character only needed saving by Batman once when Rachel was gased by the Scarecrow. The third time Rachel stopped Craine, and was willing to shoot the Arkham Inmates, to call Katie Holmes Rachel a Damsel in Distress is wrong. Maggie Gyllenhaal's Rachel was a Damsel in Distress, and was in no way believable as Assistant DA.
Something I liked about Gotham was making Selina be that childhood friend, instead of introducing a new character like Rachel
Could you possibly do a video on Mary Jane Watson from the Raimi Spiderman trilogy?
Maggie wasn't a good fit for #2
I would feel weird watching Katie Holmes with Aaron Ecklehart’s Harvey Dent.
Katie Holmes >>>>> Maggie Gyllenhaal. Katie’s delivery always came off as “unsure” because she was unsure of Bruce & his true motivations, since she didn’t know who Bruce really was until the end of the movie.
Maggie isn’t believable because she’s not even attractive, resembles a melted candle & looks a lot older than Bruce. She also delivers all of her lines with a sense of snarky sarcasm & facetiousness as if Batman is a joke to her & she doesn’t respect his mission.
I like Rachel Dawes, she was a good love interest in the Batman movies. Wish she was integrated into the comics like with Harley Quinn and the Arkham Knight.
She went from an 8 to a 2.
😂 she was better in the 1st movie
@Vee Infuso Has the cat got your tongue
I always loved how Rachel Dawes has the same vowel sounds as Jason Todd
I miss the "children should f off" opening.
I don't think it was necessary giving bruce a main love interest aside from catwoman Selina Kyle. I always preferred that relationship with batman and catwoman in comics, animated TV shows and movies.
Rachel was not needed since she was just boring and had no personality whatsoever. She has the same problem as John from the FNaF novel trilogy.
It’s not really complicated, Rachel and Dent can have a healthy home life, Bruce can’t.
I think they both were pretty good. I respect MG as an actress but I would have preferred KH to keep her role in TDK
It didn't bother me
Has the cat got your tongue
Has the cat caught your tongue
i think itd be funny if in the dark knight rises the framed photos bruce has on his mantle of rachel were of a new third actress
She should’ve been Julie Madsen
Batman Begins Rachel:
Has agency and gets to actually do stuff in the story, even though it endangers her repeatedly.
Dark Knight Rachel:
Walks in Harvey's shadow the entire film and doesn't get to do much in the story besides being a walking macguffin.
In short, I found Katie's Rachel more interesting because, unlike Maggie's Rachel, she was allowed to be an active player in her movie.
Also, Yes! Cat definitely got my tongue.
For me I would disagree I prefer Katie Holmes in the part of Rachel even though I don’t like how she was made to be why he is Batman cause it went from being about his parents like it’s always been to being about keeping Rachel safe sort of like how Superman will rush to save Lois seemingly at the drop of a hat if she is in trouble so putting the Lois lane aspect on the trilogy doesn’t work but at the end of Batman beings it’s hinted at that Rachel figured out he is Batman with the lines about Bruce Wayne is the mask he now wears and Batman is his real self but in the dark knight it’s like she has totally forgotten that she knows Bruce is Batman
I thought Rachel number#2 was a tad homely.
Here’s a fact worried about why Katie Holmes wasn’t in the second movie. Tom Cruise didn’t want her in the movie now she can’t admit it because they have a gag order on her but Tom Cruise is basically like their version of Scientology is Jesus and protect Scientology views which are sus But that’s what happened. And no it’s not it I think it’s an I know situation on this
The Matt Reeves batman films need a character like Rachael who keeps Bruce grounded, and I think Veronica Vreeland from BTAS would be perfect! I could easily see her starting off as the rich socialite prick and slowly develops into a genuinely good friend to Bruce Wayne AND The batman, as well as being an emotional foil to Bruce/Batman
I hate recasting in franchises, it always takes me out, but it is what it is
Cat got your tongue has
*WAIT A MINUTE!*
There were two different Rachel?
And the cat got your tongue
Cat got your tounge?
Does a cat got your tongue?
I think Tom cruise being a jealous, controlling nut job was the reason behind Katie Holmes not reprising her role as Rachel. I think cruise was worried Katie would fall for Christain Bale especially since they had onscreen romance scenes. That's my 2 cents. It makes no sense for her to blow off a career highlighting blockbuster like TDK for a stupid queen Latifah movie.
i was surprised when they recasted katie holmes i liked katie holmes as rachel.
I have a feeling you don’t like the Nolan Batman movies call me crazy but I get the feeling lol.
Whatever happened to her face after the first movie is really truly sad
DIFFERENT ACTRESS
Alfred: F rachel she KFC Kentucy fried chicken, what you need to do is dress up has a bat and you doing it has Gotham Savioir.
very weird to me that the only reason we got maggies excellent performance is because holmes declined
I THOUGHT IT WAS THE SAME PERSON JUST A LIL OLDER!!!
Has the cat got your tongue?
Personally i loved Maggie Gyllenhaal, some people in the comments calling her ugly...ew bruh
Katie was a better Rachel; she had a more girl next door vibe!
Any1 else yell "Rachel" as an aloha
...Katie Holmes was perfect for the role of Joey Potter, and Rachel Dawes is basically the same "Childhood Friend" Character, so i thought she was great!!!
...Christian Bale put too much Patrick Bateman into Bruce Wayne, & not enough Trevor Reznik...
...i blame Bale for any "Lack of Chemistry" btw Bruce & Rachel...
...Maggie Gyllenhaal was great as a Lawyer, but that is not the same character as the first movie...
...Batman yelling "RACHEL!!!" is ridiculous & Rachel squeeling "Harvey, oh, Harvey" reminds me of Olive Oyl!!!
...i blame Nolan for the "Lack of Chemistry" btw Bruce & Rachel AND Rachel & Harvey...
🤡 🖖 🦇
...The DARK KNIGHT Trilogy is not my favorite depiction of Batman (or Gotham) but i did like the Nightmare Hallucinations in BATMAN BEGINS...
...i think Katie Holmes does a Good Job when she is Poisoned by Scarecrow, but i would like to have seen what Rachel was seeing...? that scene always feels like there's Missing Footage!!!
For me I think the trilogy showed that Nolan didn’t really understand Bruce’s world even though I understand the realistic approach they were going for they just show no understanding of the source material cause in my opinion the trilogy comes off more like cop movies that happen to be set in Gotham City with Batman thrown on top unlike zack Snyder wh9 really understood Superman and Batman better while doing a more realistic approach with his movies and that understanding can be felt in the movies and I’m not a Snyder fanboy by any means but the understanding is felt more in his movies
Brilliant comments. Agree 100 percent with both
Has the cat got your tounge.
She should have been harvey
Ngl, I hated this character. In Batman Begins, she was forgettable. In the Dark Knight, she was insufferable and I was actually glad that Joker killed her
I don't get it, why do you even have to make a “The Problem With Dark Knight's James Gordon” video?
Bro goes from “Maggie’s Rachel doesn’t feel like a plot point although she is” make up your damned mind foo
Is that what you straight dudes want? Tired of “Girl Boss” in films? The damsel in distress?
Jesus you guys like complaining about films just to make your cash 😂
Anyway Katie over Maggie any day of the week Maggie too plain and boring
How did you not comprehend that? It's very easy to understand what he's saying
"yOu StRaIgHt dUdEs" 😤
@@randallflagg3700too bad her ancestors acted in a way that was becoming of some straight dudes.
The character was a failure, because people didn't even understand that it was the same character recast. Maggie Gylenhall is also not "love interest" material for a blockbuster comic book movie. She belongs in a Wes Anderson film, where they can mask her ugliness under "quirky nerd" vibes and costumes.
Has the cat got your tongue