A Lost Sodium Battery Technology Gets Recharged! with LiNa Energy | The Fully Charged Podcast
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- Опубликовано: 15 июл 2024
- This week Imogen picks up the podcast duties and speaks with Arvind Sabharwal and Will Tope, Chairman and CEO of LiNa Energy, a UK based battery technology company.
By utilising one of the most abundant elements, sodium aka salt, the rediscovery of a previously forgotten battery chemistry and borrowing a few bits of technology garnered from fuel cell development, the team at LiNa have created a new, long duration stationary energy storage solution in the form of sodium solid state lithium free batteries.
This is a fascinating discussion with a company at the cutting edge of a critical technology.
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Now this is why RUclips is so good. What a great interview, you’d never get this on mainstream tv
If Arvind isn't doing voice acting or documentary voice overs he's missing out on a lucrative side hustle. That voice is like rich thick drinking chocolate for your ears!
Batteries are cool too.
Agree I want him to read bed time stories to me.
I get the idea, but it does require actual acting talent and practice, not just the raw voice. That's why we hire professionals.
@@theunknownunknowns5168 not these ones! You know, because 250 C is pretty hot. Oh, how I laughed at my hilarious jape. :D
Fascinating. This was so interesting. I had no idea how long the podcast was until near the end. My sort of content. Thank you.
Imogen delivers such a clear and fluid podcast. Thank you very much FC. Great information!!
'Bon chance' to LiNA from a Brit living in France. As Imogen points out, the UK does great R&D but never seems to put the manufacturing in place there. Oxford PV are leading the world in Perovskite based solar cells but are building a factory in Germany, not the UK. We can only hope that LiNA's success will lead to more jobs and wealth creating in the UK.
Actually China is leading the world, LONGi have achieved 33.9 efficiency,
@@-PORK-CHOP- Depends how you define 'leading'. Oxford PV are closest to putting them onto the market based on reports I've read.
If your main market is the EU, it probably makes sense to produce in the EU compared to the UK.
That would be "Bonne chance" ... Luck is a Lady.... as an Anglo who is always spotted for this kind of "mis-gendering" ... you have my deepest sympathy ;-)
@@raphaelg.7574its more to do with current expertise and infrastructure it's like making cars in Scotland a stupid idea with lazy work force
Was not expecting the "Lost battery chemistry" to have been invented in my life-time (80s). Am I getting old?
Yes! Welcome to the club. Grab a glass of grapefruit, rocking chairs are available.
Best of luck to LiNa! I'm hopeful that one day I'll have one of their batteries backing up my home.
Oh, yes, the Zebra battery. Worth reading up about it in Wiki. That was a form of molten salt battery, and operates at a high temperature of 250 deg C. So do the NiNa batteries which is explored briefly in the latter part of the programme. The NaCl only works in a fluid stage, which requires this temperature. The vacuum insulation was use in Zebra batteries. To say that the Zebra battery is "forgotten" is somewhat to overstate the case, as they're still manufactured, I think in Switzerland. So there's some important technical detail of these batteries missing here. They are concentrating on the correct niche for this technology though. It's very unlikely we'll see them in transport - the old Zebra batteries were tried in a few early BEVs. You can't find actual information on power density or volume. but the Zebra battery achieved about 100-120 Wh per kg. Presumably LiNa will do a bit better? But we don't know. The quoted price per kWh is $50, so that's a good figure. Another similar energy storage battery is the sodium-sulphur battery. Again worth reading up about all these technologies on the internet as some of this presentation is overstating the case, in my estimation. However, I wish them well, and we need all these different ideas and technologies.
This was one of the best interviews i have seen in a very long time. Well done Imogen.
Gosh...
I'm just trying to think of the last time I invested nearly an hour of my time in a single 'podcast' (video)...?
WOW... just WOW...!
What an amazing company, clearly run by amazingly characterful individuals.
I genuinely hope that LiNa Energy are hugely successful and become internationally and, equally importantly, 'locally' recognised for the incredible work they are doing.
Great interview, Imogen 💖
Great episode led by Imogen. 🤞for LiNA to develop their pilot into full scale production.
Fantastic conversation. And it opened my eyes to LiNa who I'd never heard of,which is weird as I live in Lancaster 👍
Exciting tech!
And I must say: Imogen is really skilled at conducting a pleasant and engaging interview in this format. Top notch!
Guys, we need affordable, residential and small businesses scale batteries!!!!!!!! I just priced storage batteries for my home, over $1,100 a kWh installed.That needs to drop by 80% to be affordable for most people! Be actual disruptors, please! Make a battery that regular people can actually afford!
Great video
did you look at 2nd-hand lead-acid traction batteries?
lorry batteries £100/KWh is fairly easy to find, £50 if you strike lucky.
You are being ripped off. The cost of lithium ion is now down to less than $100 per kwh. I suggest you shop around.
Not lead acid though. They won't last very lng with deep cycling.@@alanhat5252
Salt of the earth, literally driving this venture, can't wait to replace my lithium batteries in the near future, great interview 👍 Mikey
Indeed let's add another element to the conversation ... hydrogen.
Judging by the number of car makers developing hydrogen fueled vehicles batteries are already on the way to their place in history.
We don't hear that much in the way of these giga factories bruited about in the popular press either.
Perhaps a modicum of economic sanity has arrived at Westminster and the senior ranks of industry?
For them as trouble to keep up with hydrogen technology then hydrogen is fast becoming the poster element of governments worldwide.
I would repeat that the very recent events of three London battery buses bursting into flames inside two weeks will be giving pause for thought among manufacturers, until a cause is found.
Ah...salt in battery
just great: good questions, plenty of time for your guests to share their knowledge and insights.
Terrific interview. Thank you very much for sharing it.
Excellent content, well done. It was nice to have a few insights into the culture and people as icing on the cake....or is that a biscuit.
Great episode, great content , great interviewer with highly motivated and knowledgeable guests. Wish Robert would prep for his interviews with as much skill as you Imogen, bless him lol. Good luck LiNa Energy, would love to invest in a start up like you.
Props for the production values, excellent sound.
Great PodCast and as Dave Borlace would say it gives you a chance to "Just Have a Think".
Using the LINa type of batteries for large scale storage solutions has the side benefit of releasing the components they don't need to use, like the stuff in Lithium based batteries, so other industries who need the benefits and capabilities of that technology have access to raw materials.
As battery recycling ramp up world wide the LFP stuff reclaimed will not be needed for battery storage setups since the LINa battery is a better, more cost effective fit for that use. It's a win win!!
Fabulous podcast! Imogen does an amazing job asking the right questions and driving this podcast forward at a good pace! Super excited about the tech and seeing these batteries hitting the retail market! Sadly, I fear it will be years before, potentially a decade, before we see a 12v battery that I can use as a solar storage device for my off grid office, my motorhome leisure battery. Already seeing sodium batteries available in China though it would take a brave person to be an early adopter.
Wonderful news from South Africa during a rolling blackout 😀😎
Probably an ideal location for such a system?
What a great little business! Their clarity of direction together with some unique technology smells of success!
Let's hope they can Take this forward, good luck.
Great show thanks team
What an awesome episode, love the topic on new battery formats and chemistries. Everything Electric team keep up with great work and greetings from sLOVEnia 😊❤ hope to see you this year at live show London
Such a good podcast. New technology is not a simple rask, listening to all this passion is so refreshing.
I wish them all the success they deserve
Very good info, great production
Awesome episode!!
This is why I am not worried about when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine. Also the UK is fast becoming the Sodium ion innovation country isn't it at least when it comes to stationary storage.
We are going to use massive amounts of storage. My heat pump can consume 50kwh on a very cold day in winter when there may be no wind and never much sunshine. Multiply that by 20 million or so properties and we get to as much as 1 terawatt hour per day just for heating. That might have to be supplied for many days on end so the storage requirements are truly colossal.
@@rogerphelps9939so we need to get on with all the tidal energy projects that have been queued up for years waiting for Gov't approval
@@rogerphelps9939what energy would you previously have used?
@@rogerphelps9939Given heat pumps deliver heat that's multiples of the energy consumed, your house must take 100-200 kWh to stay warm. You seriously need to invest in insulation, or are you living in a tent?
@rogerphelps9939
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So I assume you have an air sourced heat pump?
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Surely if you're in an area where the pump *consumes* "up to 50kWh on a very cold day", a ground sourced pump may have been better due to the consistent temperature?
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Otherwise it seems your logic is "off"?
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("20 million properties" indicates "homes in the UK?)
It’s so refreshing to have a podcast delivered by such clearly intelligent, switched on techies and business people. Good luck to Lina. I missed the explanation for the Tata branding that appeared, if there was one. Talking of branding, how do you decide whether an episode is branded as fully charged or everything electric? It’s a bit confusing.
Would have loved to hear more about battery sizing, capacity, duration etc especially for home use
that's getting into sales details, too much for a talk like this. Check their website while watching.
They showed you what appears to be a ±1m³ unit(?)
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They stressed the preferred application as commercial scale long term storage.
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Maybe a district sized solution of 1 container per "x" homes would be sensible.
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Rooftop solar on the homes.
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Sending excess energy directly to the "local battery" (solves the "PV land area" issue?)
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Those homes receiving the stored energy back when "the sun don't shine".
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Unused capacity sold to the grid.
.....
No battery infrastructure required in individual homes, but those homes receive similar benefit to an individual battery without the cost......?
Large players are desperate to maintain "grid stability" and revenue streams. We the people will tend to remain net consumers. Some distributed storage can reduce need to upgrade grids and local ringmains, but the market wishes to keep control of grid level firming.
30min, live notification,set to ALL received , subscribed, given 👍, Audio, Video is Good.
A brilliant video , so uplifting. I'm sure Lina will be a spectacular success.
Really exciting that innovations are focussing on areas that need it most rather than just wanting it all for the rich northern hemisphere countries. Looking forward to news on the Indian pilot. I will follow LiNa energy to see how things progress. After all the unicorn fairy tales about solid state on social media, it is great to see an application that might actually work. Well done!
A terrific podcast, very informative. But what I think is great is the fact that real people work with real people to start to solve real world problems. I wish LiNa Energy all the very best for the future, which I hope will be based in the UK.
Great podcast. Imogen is such a good interviewer, personal but very thorough. This technology would also work very well in the US southern states, and they probably can get a higher price than in India (which could subsidize its use in the global south).
Leaving a like & a comment for the algorithm because of your previous videos 👍
Very informative
The Highlander PS kindness is always free. Oh, I'm in Great Lakes USA.
I have been enjoyed, so thank you for delivering.
Zat so
A great discussion with what I hope will be a very successful team and company.
Excellent discussion. I was interested in the internal discharge rate, internal impedance, and maximum discharge rate. I didn't find that information on the LiNa Energy website.
Brilliant interview Imogen, really fascinating and good to see they have an excellent culture in the workplace. As they said a lot safer than lithium and a lot cheaper, lets hope they get some serious government investment, unfortunately it won't be from our government in the UK as they have absolutely no idea what they are doing.
Company Culture: I worked at a company of maybe 15 people where the boss insisted everyone including him, went to the canteen for coffee, maybe 10 minutes all of us at the same time, sitting down. It worked, we communed. We made cutting edge (sorry) oil industry (mostly) products. Boss was ousted. Coffee time dwindled. I left not long after.
🤗 THANKS FULLY,WILL,ARVIND FOR SHARING THE FUTURE…PROGRESS IS BEING MADE 😎💚💚💚
Brilliant
Great interview, great interviewees!
Gr8
What we need is to find a way of making them cheaply from sea water that could be a byproduct of desalination for drinking & agricultural water production, especially good for regions that don't currently have fresh water supplies. The enery stored in the batteries could even be used to power the desalination plants making it a circular process. An endless supply of cheap, clean energy that can be used to make every home, factory, business & vehicle energy self sufficient.
That would be an excellent idea, which is probably why it's not gonna happen.
Don't forget that, if by chance, the installation happens to be near the coastline, the moving mass of the water could fill the batteries.
This is just a fantasy, it's much more likely that each individual aspect will be done by indépendant companies, who don't care about the globale aspect of what they are doing.
Good luck guys 👍
14:44 that's a polite way to phrase it was pushed aside intentionally. Since the ICE has overtaken the BEV is the 1920's there was a need for better batteries to get the BEV competitive again, especially considering this was around the oil crisis and there was great interest in alternatives
Is Britain a global leader in the battery ecosystem? News to me.
Fascinating approach .... wonder if Tesla would be interested in partnering with these guys for their grid storage business?
What is the target/projected cost of the Lina storage battery in $/Kwh? Ambri has a grid storage battery cost of $180 to $250/Kwh, and the batteries operate at 500°C.
sounds expensive. is that the cell cost or already installed system price?
@stefanweilhartner4415 I assume that would be the system cost. If you compare it to a 13.5kwh tesla powerwall that costs about $11,500 installed. That works out at $852/kwh. But Ambri's system is grid scale and comes in the form of a shipping container sized unit. What a grid size, Tesla unit costs, I have no idea.
Imogen is brilliant 🙌
The elephant in the room with solid state batteries is preventing dendrites from flooding. You didn't get into that at all, so perhaps that's part of the open "secret source" that this company has developed.
My Brother is a Manager with Tata Airlines in Delhi India.
I wanted to hear more about the limitations of the tech in its current state more than the corporate vibe
Thanks, your success is our success. Just one correction, natural gas based electricity emits similar amounts of greenhouse gases as coal, due to methane emissions.
A superb disruptive technology...more to follow
I can hardly wait until they come up with a battery/battery bank that will be available to us off-grid folks. Here in the Southern California desert, we NEED a battery that can handle the heat!
Good morning team
Best of luck guys at LiNA… let’s hope we can keep the manufacturing here in UK too, not just the R&D…
Is this LiNA related to LiNA Medical??
Taking in account all the benefits is sounds like the Sodium Ion battery would be the best candidate for a battery swap system. Drive in swap the battery, and drive away.
Please let the secret ingredient by vinegar.
Can I chip in with a comment? That’s a bit fishy.
Great discussion... Wish all the best for LiNa
Food grade salt - WTF. Wishing them all the best in commercialising this.
WoW!
I may have just lost focus but did they talk about partnering with Tata? They're a pretty big player. Also - please start using chapters for your videos. It's incredibly beneficial and makes life so much easier. I know it must be a pain point but it really does help. Similarly, can't you link the companies in your description?
Tata is written on the big battery in the corner, no explanation given.
“Dehradoon which is a part of Haryana but you wouldn’t know” bit was funny 😂
Can someone explain the efficiency/cost benefits of home vs grid battery storage?
The brine waste that we get after desalination and RO is sodium... so we can extract the sodium from that and use it... is basically free...
part of their point
dragging it out of a hole in the ground is even cheaper & that's what they're doing
Why would they use waste when it's cheaper to extract it and make more waste?
It's not like we haven't got anywhere to chuck it all. We haven't even half filled up the oceans with crap, and we can burn lots of it, which doesn't even go to the oceans. If that's not possible, just dig a hole and put it in there.
Using waste would only be a good idea if we didn't have anywhere to chuck it.
The square battery looked like an XL-sized After Eight Dark Chocolate..
25:00 Deli,
that's where sandwiches are from!
I get the whole approach for solar storage, but for the UK with a high wind renewable component, why not this sector? I find it frustrating to see turbines standing still due to the balancing of fossil fuel power station output. What a waste. Or am I missing the point?
As I watch this I'm just reminded of Aunt Sally ?
Dont let the corporations buy you and bury your wonderful product.
Imogen, I have just realise that you are as good as Helen as a presenter, and is of a very high standard.
Love the rhythmic use of the word 'as'
Grid storage is a good use case for heavier batteries, however, you then must compete with lots of other technologies in which the cost might not be as great benefit.
For vehicles, their battery cost is a huge issue. As I understand, the chinese sodium batteries are about the same as Lithium Iron, which have been used in vehicles and are safe,
just has less energy and thus range. As I have been saying for decades now...for cars, we don't need long range, we need cheap batteries that can recharged quickly, and we have recharging done in very convenient ways, not going to a charge station and sit for 2 hours..
I wonder if they will sell a Maldon sea salt battery for a premium price? LOL
I have a bunch of UPSes that need new batteries, wish I could get some affordable Na-ion cells of known origins to slap replacement 12V and 24V battery packs together with and probably not have to worry about replacing batteries for the next 15+ years.
We already add a bunch of cool tech on the 60's and 70's, IMO because the post war boom, no pun intended, helped people invent new things they just needed more refinement and that is what takes time. But what they add back then was already usable it seems, thou in less quantity.
Are these batteries scalable for domestic use or only suitable for large scale grid storage?
Ok when there is a room of Geeks I want to work there.
Imogen is the best. Just clear, technical, communication.😊
Will these ever be available for the home?
It would be nice if they could use the power cell for electricity, and use the heat for heating?
Not a floppy disk or a biscuit, but a thick coaster surely?
Lol we have a lot of salt here in the UK.
The UK only invests in oil exploration and financial games. Both government and private investors. I really wish they had more foresight, but that’s why I moved to the USA.
Cooling towers only emit water vapour. They do not create pollution.
Nice talk!
Looking for raw battery performance and requirements.
Energy density? Wh/l and wh/kg
Energy capacity cost? Wh/$
Operating tempetsture? 250C
Operating life? Years, cycles
EOL recycling
Outline of target aoolicstion? Maybe replace a peaker power plant (Gw) or auto super charger (Mw)
Et c
Ho, good. Another new battery that will be reading 2 to 4 years. Unique
Who set those mics up?
Looking forward to Harrogate fully charged
what about weight, iron and salt (stone in essence), not the lightest of things and it's to of them in the batteries? for static (none moving batteries yes maybe? but if battery not moving is an actual battery the best option in the first place, big Capacitors really big Capacitors room sized ones or ever pyramid sized ones maybe?
👍
Rooftop PV and batteries needs little grid.
Grid is insanely expensive if capacity expansion is included in the solution.
Rooftop solar on every home.
Out the battery in a container at the end of the road.
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Use ONE connection to the grid rather than however many homes are connected (that's been a criticism of home storage).
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Cheaper for the home owners.
More space efficient.
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Easy, efficient connection to the grid.
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Easy power management.
@rogerstarkey5390 that is a good concept. 👍
For Australia with 20 million buildings and vehicles, which is just a coincidence, then a simple automatic selfplug-in EV means that there is a good amount of electricity storage just with that basic arrangement. And rooftop PV.
The inverters can be standardised.
The vehicles are connected to the grid 23 hours every day and trickle discharge or charging.
This seems to be the simplest and cheapest way to go.
No grid expansion costs.
Battery technologies evolving rapidly.
PV panels technologies evolving rapidly.
Auto manufacturers know that they can also be an energy business.
Uncertainty in government and vested interests are confusing forward planning.
Nuclear electricity does not work well with renewables for many countries or the world.
The world does not have enough time or resources or money for the grid electricity solution.
Vehicles can disconnect, drive, and connect to the grid or building or home or shopping centres or ...
The automatic connection is the cheapest and simplest thing.
Home robotic vacuum cleaner and robotic lawnmower do this daily. Millions do it.
Selfparking EVs should be able to do a simple 'nudge connection or plug in' and unplug as the driver leaves the parking bay.
For Australia, that would mean 4x to 6x electricity in storage daily and double the fossil fueled electricity generation daily.
The storage is free with the EV vehicle, Hahaha Hahaha.
Simple numbers and minimum work.
Private individual minimum investment with double value.
Road loads from heavier vehicles will add to road maintenance costs, but it may only be until lighter batteries evolve.
We need more people thinking about the future, the best 'road map', and not expensive investment in dead-end concepts.
@@stephenbrickwood1602and when will global car manufacturers conform to an Australian standard ? When will EV uptake in Australia actually reach a point where the batteries in the cars actually make a dent in storage ? When will 100% of homes have solar on the roof ? To achieve what you set out requires standards and coordination will meet resistance and will not be a silver bullet. For instance to really meet climate targets less people should own cars, less people should live in single family dwellings, so there goes your storage and source of power. The NSW government is pushing metros and people walking to them instead of commuting by cars for instance. The low density lifestyle of Australians that you’re solution depends on is itself a burden on the climate
@francesconicoletti2547
4 million homes have rooftop PV, now.
200,000 EVs now,
Things are changing and will change faster as all technologies improve.
@@francesconicoletti2547
It is predicted that the Chinese and Russian population will crash and reduce CO2 emissions, but let's not wish for that.
Sodium ion has much less energy density, so still needs much r&d.
You could reduce the price of your insulation by using many laminate layers of 2mm of perlite and aluminium foil, perlite aluminium foil laminates are very cheep