I haven't really collected cards since 2009. SGC has made collecting fun for me again with their pricing, turnaround times, & overall solid reputation in the collecting community. Thanks for the video.
Another fantastic upload, Chris. It certainly reinforces, to me at least, the subjecte nature of card grading, and the pitfalls of a company that is a clear market-leader (when you crunch the numbers). Keep up the great content, and thank you for sharing your experiments with us all. Very educational!
Agree with you on multiple points. If I were in your position, I think I would go completely with SGC on vintage cards. Use PSA for the modern, only because of the resale value.
Nice video Chris! Recently, I had some vintage cards I was considering sending to SGC for grading. You convinced me that was the right choice after watching your PSA reveal video a month ago. Two of the cards were a 1967 Topps Hank Aaron #250 and a 1971 Topps Hank Aaron #400, both in PSA 6. I cracked both of them and sent five additional cards (7 total) to SGC a couple of weeks ago. The order returned today and both of the Aaron cards received a grade of SGC 7.5. Based on the average VCP price this equated to a $125 increase in value for the ‘71 and a $200 plus increase in value for the ‘67. As others have mentioned, they also look great in SGC slabs. All these cards were PC for me.
1964 Jim Brown, the Pink Cadillac in the background is his personal car. You will find other cards from that year of his team mates in front of the same car.
I think doing this rewards grading companies for poor standards. I believe Chris lost time and money after factoring payment PSA for the first round of grading fees
I have graded with all the four major grading companies. My experience mirrors yours, in that I have seen more inconsistencies with PSA grades than any of the other companies. To call them puzzlers is interesting. I have cracked a few to get comparisons like you did in this video. My experience has been that it’s more like a two grade miss from PSA, so a little bit more off than what you had in this sample. To be clear, I don’t think PSA gets it wrong every time. But when they miss, it seems to be relatively egregious. Thanks for all of your videos! I really enjoy all of your content.
I've been a card dealer since the late 80s. My first 10 years of submitting to PSA I was 90% spot on with my grading. The last 10 years it has dropped to around 80%. Which tells me there is definitely some inconsistenties of late. I use a loop and literally triple check my vintage submissions. The worst thing i remember was when PSA decided to go to half grades. I sent in a bunch of high end 8s hoping for 8.5s. Two came back 7s? Unfortunately Bird/Magic rookie and a 67 Clemente. So then I cracked and sent to Beckett and both came back 8.5s. Quite a hassle but just shows the inconsistencies.
You did the right thing on this. Nice work listening to the comments! Even though the Jordan wasn't part of the original 8 card experiment, you should look at that as a positive in SGC's favor as well!
The eye appeal on the Doer makes it a premium seller. Put it next to any other 2.5 with edge wear, etc. and this one will sell first every time. It looks so good. Also on a mini documentary or short for PSA they showed them using a scanner. Possibly small creases are seen in a scan and not to the naked eye? The cards in general have great eye appeal.
Appreciate the experiment, Chris! From my experience, PSA is usually at what I expect or higher, SGC a grade lower, but consistant. There are certain graders at PSA that grade lower than expected too.
Not only did you receive better/more consistent grades... the aesthetics and overall presentation of the cards is infinitely better in the SGC slabs. So much more attractive than the unflattering PSA slabs, it's not even close. People are finally waking up to this, it seems.
One item of note - if you are afraid of damaging the card when you crack it out from the slab (like I am), for the same $15 grading fee you can send the slabbed cards to SGC and specify the lowest grade you will accept in your "crossover" attempt to an SGC holder. This will take a bit longer than the regular 5-10 day business day turnaround time but may be worth it if you want to maintain the current grade in a PSA slab. I've used this service a few times and you can include a crossover attempt in your regular raw card SGC grading submissions.
A lot of people think the current grade will affect the grader which is why they crack them. Most people will tell you there’s very low success with crossovers
I think it is human nature to look closely but I doubt that all of his cards would have gotten the bump perhaps a few but you can't unsee the PSA grades so it has to affect it.
I don’t want to sound like a conspiracy theorist but I’ve been saying for years that these grading companies are pop controlling those Ray Benge cards.
I mean, it's easy to see once you realize the grader hates the Packers... just rearrange the letters of Ray Benge and you get Green Bay... hence the low score...😂😅🤣😆
PSA pop controls pokemon, especially XY Evolutions, that's the set responsible for the PSA backup in 2020, clowns were sending in thousands of cards try to get a Gemed master set or hundreds of charizards to pass off to the clowns who think it'll be the next Vase set😂
Wouldn’t be surprised if that is the case. Also, I trust SGC more than PSA when it comes to vintage. I also believe the SGC slab looks better when it comes to vintage. I hope collectors stop giving PSA a big edge when it comes to valuation of vintage cards. They should be held in equal regard
A few years ago, a RUclips channel by the name of Vintage Card Curator made a number of videos scrutinizing PSA's practices ("pop control" allegations, authenticating and grading altered cards, etc.). Well worth checking out even in 2024.
Here in Florida there are sports cards shops, whose showcases are filled primarily with SGC graded cards. Prior to Collectors' acquisition of SGC, I always believed it was sad that some people had to be "sold" on SGC and even after the acquisition, i still feel that way. My only concern is SGC's "long-term value, because we all know what happens to 95% of companies acquired by larger companies.
Or... SGC is in line with proper, industry grading standards and PSA is heading off the deep end in overcompensating and going TOO strict. There's charts that outline what constitutes an approximate grade for each major card feature (centering, corners, edges, etc). These things have been known for 75 years in collecting. When Chris says "I think this should get a # ", that's the historic data/standard he's pulling from.
It would be interesting to assign the research department the task of taking one of your recent PSA vintage orders and comping out the PSA grade values, the equivalent SGC grade value and maybe SGC +1 grade values and then see in theory what would have been best to send to.
Not sure if you financially benefited as much your chart says…. Even one grade lower I wouldn’t be shocked if the PSA copy would’ve sold for higher anyway. But def improvement in the brooks psa 3 and mantle authentic. Great video!!
The authentic bump to 4.5 was the hit. The rest made absolutely no difference. The bump makes up for the sgc price difference from psa this is the 1 time i actually have to say grading was in balance the psa 5 was worth about the same as sgc 6. For once the grading makes sense. Please more video's like this to help people understand it is what it is but its level across the board.
I am totally with you on this one Chris I recently sent a Jake lamotta leaf rookie in to P S.A. And it came get back ungraded, Then I cracked it and sent it to SCG, it came back a 5 P S.A. Has really become inconsistent
Appreciate the experiment. I submitted nice 1938 churchman joe louis and jack johnson to psa and they came back 3s. I cracked and resubmitted to psa again and one came back a 5 and 6. Different graders i guess. Nice to get the grades i expected. Too bad only psa made money on the deal.
That Goudey looked rough in the PSA slab I had a feeling you were SOL on that one with the resub even with SGC's slightly easier usual results. The 2 looks appropriate to me with those rounded corners (surface obviously tougher to gauge via video). I will pay at/near PSA same grade prices for high eye appeal/centered SGC though.
There's often no other explanation than this. And I'm not one for wearing tin foil hats. Or PSA is just so bad at what they do. Either way, this reflects poorly on them.
I have found that SGC grades consistently reflect SGC standards more accurately. this experiment confirms my own anecdotal observation. I think this is a perfect example of why, for collectors, SGC has been taking market share away from PSA: their grades and our eyeballs are in harmony.
Thier grades are slightly higher but bring slightly less money it's almost beautiful how it all works out so harmonic the card in psa holder with a 4 brings same money as the card in sgc 5 it actually is one aspect of grading that this 1 time made complete sense
Totally agree…..about 2 months after the 2022 induction, I sent a Tony Oliva 1963 Topps rookie to PSA. They gave it a 4 and I assumed it would be a 6 or 7, based off of recent ones that had been graded. I cracked it and sent it to SGC and got a 7.5 on it And at that point, ir had been about 4 months post-induction. I then sold the card (on eBay) for $427 and looked the next week and saw that a PSA 5 had sold for $378. The discrepancy in prices IS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS between PSA & SGC. Imo the SGC slabs look WAAAAAAAAY BETTER on most vintage. They grade more fairly and they’re quicker. I wish people would wake up and see that PSA IS A GIANT PONZI SCHEME, built by the hobby elite (who spend so much $ with PSA that they get grades that us collecting peons could never afford). PSA is the sports card equivalent of governmental kickbacks!!! It is DISGRACEFUL!
I think i would have to DISAGREE with you on a previous point you made that psa is grading tougher to meet the demands of the market. They are clearly grading tougher in order to skew and control pop reports as this is reflected in your grade assessment, SGCs and even mine (i thought most were way undergraded by psa as well just by eye test). In no way did psa reflect what any of us thought and knowing the trends of the market where psa high grade brings top dollar, their actions actively prove that. It is major a statistical anomaly to have most cards grade higher and not a single one grade lower. Literally near impossible unless they are making a statement to selectively make things more difficult to grade higher. Earlier you said their standards have changed as the consumer have changed, but this is NOT what consumers want and its unfortunate what you had to go through. The only way now is to grade SGC or alternative, and it starts with dealers like you... I would put personal values over card value and psa obviously just doesnt care anymore as they get backlogged and raise prices with near none customer service, subpar standards, and artificially lowering grades as is the case here. They dont care anymore so why should we?
I sent 15 cards to PSA and was majorly disappointed . Some of them I am the original owner and I've had since I was a kid and they were kept in an album . I had a Jerry rice rookie , Steve Young rookie's that were absolutely beautiful . Sharp corners very well centered and came back with moderate grades . Next time I will go to Beckett or SGC
I would argue you would have also gotten similar results just sending back to PSA. Would be an interesting for a second test for the "puzzlers". Just got a small order back with a heavy percentage of "puzzlers" myself. Used to be just one or two per order, this last one was 40% of the order total head scratchers
Ive found I like my cards in one screw or magnetic holders best. Anyone who has collected a long time can look at a card and be within a grade at worst case. No need to waste our money. Sure go grade that Mantel RC but… I have a lot more cards, because I don’t give my money to graders.
Did I hear you say you submitted PSA grades to SGC as well? I couldn't tell from the rewind, if so, Im not sure this would be a fair eval, I would like to see them go with no info.
@@richardbianco9674 I think the point of the crossover back to psa is he could probably get a 4.5/5 on the Brooks and a 3.5/4 on the Mantle after first getting a 3 and an auth respectively.
Chris you didn’t pick any outliers. Its well-known PSA has become super strict on vintage as of late. Although it sucks to have a low-grade, the well-known vintage collector will know the difference between a new and old serial number. The condition contrast is so vast. I’ve seen quite a range of sales history vary between the same card/grades depending on how recently it was submitted.
Definitely interesting results, particularly with some cards that were close in grades, but SGC was never below the PSA grade. I assume the Doerr and Benge have some hard-to-see wrinkle that is obvious under magnification but not to the naked eye. I wonder if the PSA guarantee makes them particularly tough graders, particularly after PSA was purchased by a large company that wanted to reign in any grade guarantee claims and make the guarantee less of a liability.
WOW, quite the undertaking. Very much against everything you stand for. having to settle for SGC and crack PSA. maybe break even with the new grades and the extra money you spent for your "experiment". Thanks for sharing. What in the hell is the world coming too?"Shows to Go ya" how dopey PSA is. Enjoy the registry folks
Thank you for the very interesting experement! Other than the Mantle, I would have not cracked the PSA slabs and resubmitted - risk / reward not woth it to me.. PS - Mntle is probably worth abot $100 more non-auction from when yoiur analysis was done. Good stuff!!!
It may well be Brown's Caddy in the background. But the reason it's there is Philadelphia used that generic photo as the background for many of the Brown's cards that year(it's an obvious photoshop).
Do you use different lights or magnifying glasses or rulers to analyze card condition before sending them in? I'm often surprised how lighting can change the way I assess card condition.
Besides the '67 Mantle, you wouldn't have gained anything from submitting to SGC--therefore, PSA would still make the most sense financially for reselling. However, you did get video revenue I assume for this project so it was worth the effort. I love this type of video segment you create. Thank you
Re-selling is not the only factor. Anyone who wants to display their cards (and isn't vision-impaired) would prefer the aesthetics of the SGC slab. And recent data shows SGC quickly gaining ground + even surpassing PSA in many cases.
As one of the original commenters who suggested this, I feel kind of vindicated. With the caveats that I know 1) you know the hobby better than I do 2) do this for a living, and 3) PSA resale is generally higher than SGC, I still feel like some of your takeaways match my personal experience. SGC is faster, more consistent, has better customer service, and seems to understand vintage grading better than PSA. If this experiment causes you to use SGC more frequently for vintage than previously, I feel like its going to benefit you more financially and benefit the hobby, as your influence would help other vintage collectors. Thanks as always for your transparent, fair, and well presented videos.
My last 2 PSA submissions have seriously turned me off to getting cards graded as an investment business model. Any grading "surprises" were always a worse grade than expected, never higher. Just too many "puzzlers" that got me pretty pissed. I have one more submission and that will be the last chance for PSA. If I get burned there, I'll be closing my account with them.
@@garygor1960 I do use a lighted magnifying glass and am thorough checking corners/edges/surface. Will say though that PSA contacted me about my recent submission and wanted me to confirm/accept 3 grades that would push the value of the graded card over the dollar limit for that submission. Getting them back today, so excited to see if this will be a redemption for them. Crossing my fingers.
The one grade higher on average is typical because PSA grades tougher and why they sell for more. The authentic is because PSA looks at every card under a blue light in a dark room which SGC does not! They are not as thorough. PSA saw something on it which is very common for older cards. Also you CANNOT look at these cards with your naked eye and expect to see what the graders are seeing with a loupe.
Ive sent card to psa expecting an 8 and received a 10. Ive also sent in perfect cards that come back as an 8. One batch gets an accurate grade and the next is all over the place. Their quality control and consistency is garbage for the past few years.
@matthew1072a that is completely wrong. Differing light sources is used by all the major grading companies and has been talked about by them. The authentic was because psa deemed it to small. Which back then was common and expected considering the printing and cutting processes used back then.
@@jeffniles7121look at their grading standards. It’s printed on the website. It literally says a 10 can be 60/40. They have been know for going easier on centering for decades.
I have been collecting for along time and have yet to send any of my PC cards to get graded with concerns over the different grading companies practices. I am curious on vintage cards if they grade based on the time period of the card at all. My opinion a grading of a modern card vs vintage should be different. A modern card graded a 10 is not equal to a 10 of a vintage card coming from lets says 1959. Printing practices, packaging, etc were different back then compared to now. What are your thoughts on the differences?
Are you using magnification when looking these over? As always, SGC actually gives you what you pay for when you submit. PSA tends to only give around 60-80% of what you pay for...great company to support along with all the lemmings!
those Doerr grades are a joke, a very minor stain on the back of the card should not knock that down so low.. i can see it being a 6-7 range knocked down to like a 4-5, but 2 suggests it's almost ruined
I would think most low to mid grade vintage would be the best for SGC in terms of being a dealer. There's not a big difference in prices as those cards usually aren't something that set registry people are looking for. Also, a lot of collectors of those types of cards already use SGC or don't have any issue with buying the slabs....they usually aren't as wedded to PSA.
@Kbunk_Youth_Football_Wrestling bingo. When sgc finally gets it's set registry together, this may change though. But that is the one major factor especially with higher graded cards
The problem is obvious...and I'll state the obvious. The problem is that the "major companies" rely on human beings to complete the grading. So naturally you'll get, and continue to get, puzzlers. I'm convinced the only accurate rating would be through these computer generated grading companies (ie: TAG, AGS, etc). I refuse and will NEVER submit any of my cards to PSA, SGC or any other human graded company. I've watched too many of these sort of videos and have learned that lesson without having to spend one penny.
CHRIS - Where did that PSA order come back from? I tend to get a fairly high % of the grades correct, but I have noticed something recently. I have been keeping an eye on where my PSA orders are coming back from. I am in CA and have sent in multiple submissions to PSA (at the same time) and some have been getting graded and sent back from LA while others were graded and sent back from New Jersey. First, I don't understand why PSA doesn't just post a Jersey address so we can all just use two locations and cut down on return times. It seems like it would cost them more money and not be worth it to risk shipping orders from LA to Jersey when they are behind, but what do I know. Anyway, my orders that come back from New Jersey always seem like they are graded more harshly. This wasn't just one order, but multiple, and then I noticed it was the case when talking to friends and seeing their results. I have also seen a video or two online where the people said how low their grades seemed and they happened to mention their order came back from Jersey. I am sure not every card is low, but seems like some inconsistency coming out of two different locations. Looking at your grades, I know Brooks Robinson doesn't sell for a ton like other big stars, but I am surprised it jumped from a 3 to a 5.5 and only increased $50. I'd just think it would be more. Last thing, a side note - I think there is too small a gap between 3's and 4's in value. Not that people should run out and buy 4's or anything. However, given that a 3 is the highest grade a card can get if it has a wrinkle, I would think 4's would have more of a jump in value. Not that every 3 has a wrinkle, but it's the first thing I look for on a 3 and I think there is definitely a line between 3 and below and a 4 and above. Just my 2 cents.
Those 1998 Upper Deck Black Diamonds look great, but are a tough grade. I'm making a set of football from that year, and it's hard to do much better than 8/8.5.
You didn't factor the cost (and loss) of the original PSA grading into the equation. Had you not sent them to PSA in the first place you'd be well ahead versus now where you effectively paid them to drop the ball. It's definitely a feather in SGC's cap if you don't want to roll the dice with PSA's "outlier" results, which for all you know could be more often than you might realize.
Chris, really nice work as usual. This was really interesting. I don't know if you're familiar with my Frank Robinson rookie situation, I can send you the details. It's pretty wild. They're Just wildly inconsistent. It depends on the greater. It makes me wonder if long-term AI is the answer...
The only issue that i have with your experiment is that I have subbed hundreds of times with SGC and PSA and it has been my experience that SGC is more lenient than PSA regarding corners, so I would expect this batch to do a little better with SGC... In your original post I felt that there were several blunted corners in this collection that you missed or discounted... Usually, vintage cards are similar in most respects: corner condition matches surface condition matches edges, etc... But this lot has really nice surfaces and while that's good the grading process is one of subtraction, so i think the blunted corners are the culprit here... thanks for the vid!
@@nathanmulkey Anyone who grades lots of vintage cards overlooks defects from time to time(myself included)... I think my comments were pretty constructive and I doubt Chris will understand them as anything else...
I thought SGC was on the rise but I now worry about it since SGC got bought out. Technically, a card can be perfect but if stained is considered fair (2) condition. Maybe you got one of those jerk graders who undergrads vintage cards because they are old. Maybe PSA intentionally undergrads nice vintage cards then targets them for purchase to put a higher grade (then sells them for a nice profit). I wouldn't bet against it,
![KSI - Dirty [Official Visualiser]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/VoDh1h1dPUE/mqdefault.jpg)
That '67 Mantle was definitely the deal maker! Thanks for taking the time to do this experiment! Have a very successful National!
I haven't really collected cards since 2009. SGC has made collecting fun for me again with their pricing, turnaround times, & overall solid reputation in the collecting community. Thanks for the video.
Another fantastic upload, Chris.
It certainly reinforces, to me at least, the subjecte nature of card grading, and the pitfalls of a company that is a clear market-leader (when you crunch the numbers).
Keep up the great content, and thank you for sharing your experiments with us all. Very educational!
SGC is the way to go. Thanks for the info. GREAT VID!
Good job chris!! Hope you offer more of these for us following
Agree with you on multiple points. If I were in your position, I think I would go completely with SGC on vintage cards. Use PSA for the modern, only because of the resale value.
Nice video Chris! Recently, I had some vintage cards I was considering sending to SGC for grading. You convinced me that was the right choice after watching your PSA reveal video a month ago.
Two of the cards were a 1967 Topps Hank Aaron #250 and a 1971 Topps Hank Aaron #400, both in PSA 6. I cracked both of them and sent five additional cards (7 total) to SGC a couple of weeks ago.
The order returned today and both of the Aaron cards received a grade of SGC 7.5. Based on the average VCP price this equated to a $125 increase in value for the ‘71 and a $200 plus increase in value for the ‘67.
As others have mentioned, they also look great in SGC slabs. All these cards were PC for me.
Really interesting results, yet not all that surprising. Thanks for taking the time to follow through with this, it's very helpful.
1964 Jim Brown, the Pink Cadillac in the background is his personal car.
You will find other cards from that year of his team mates in front of the same car.
Thank you for sharing this with us. I think many of us believed this was a good idea.
I think doing this rewards grading companies for poor standards. I believe Chris lost time and money after factoring payment PSA for the first round of grading fees
They look sooo much better in sgc slabs. I can't imagine choosing psa over sgc for a personal collection
Great video, thanks for sharing this one!
Great analysis, thanks Chris!
Rumor is that’s Jim Brown’s Caddy in the background.
That 100% is his Pink Caddilac, he requested that he be photographed with it behind him.
Check out the rest of the Browns from that set. All of them have the parking lot background. LOL
That is NOT Jim Brown’s Cadillac in the background. 100%
@@gridironstarscorrect, it was Not his car
Saw the end of the video got my answer. Thanks for the video.
I have graded with all the four major grading companies. My experience mirrors yours, in that I have seen more inconsistencies with PSA grades than any of the other companies. To call them puzzlers is interesting. I have cracked a few to get comparisons like you did in this video. My experience has been that it’s more like a two grade miss from PSA, so a little bit more off than what you had in this sample. To be clear, I don’t think PSA gets it wrong every time. But when they miss, it seems to be relatively egregious.
Thanks for all of your videos! I really enjoy all of your content.
I've been a card dealer since the late 80s. My first 10 years of submitting to PSA I was 90% spot on with my grading. The last 10 years it has dropped to around 80%. Which tells me there is definitely some inconsistenties of late. I use a loop and literally triple check my vintage submissions. The worst thing i remember was when PSA decided to go to half grades. I sent in a bunch of high end 8s hoping for 8.5s. Two came back 7s? Unfortunately Bird/Magic rookie and a 67 Clemente. So then I cracked and sent to Beckett and both came back 8.5s.
Quite a hassle but just shows the inconsistencies.
You did the right thing on this. Nice work listening to the comments! Even though the Jordan wasn't part of the original 8 card experiment, you should look at that as a positive in SGC's favor as well!
The eye appeal on the Doer makes it a premium seller. Put it next to any other 2.5 with edge wear, etc. and this one will sell first every time. It looks so good. Also on a mini documentary or short for PSA they showed them using a scanner. Possibly small creases are seen in a scan and not to the naked eye? The cards in general have great eye appeal.
Appreciate the experiment, Chris! From my experience, PSA is usually at what I expect or higher, SGC a grade lower, but consistant. There are certain graders at PSA that grade lower than expected too.
You are very polite, Chris. "Puzzler" sounds like a euphemism for "wrong."
No, not "wrong" but tougher graders. I rather buy those slabs.
Not only did you receive better/more consistent grades... the aesthetics and overall presentation of the cards is infinitely better in the SGC slabs. So much more attractive than the unflattering PSA slabs, it's not even close. People are finally waking up to this, it seems.
One item of note - if you are afraid of damaging the card when you crack it out from the slab (like I am), for the same $15 grading fee you can send the slabbed cards to SGC and specify the lowest grade you will accept in your "crossover" attempt to an SGC holder. This will take a bit longer than the regular 5-10 day business day turnaround time but may be worth it if you want to maintain the current grade in a PSA slab. I've used this service a few times and you can include a crossover attempt in your regular raw card SGC grading submissions.
Do you think it affects the grade they issue, for example, SGC sees the card in a PSA 3 slab, and figure they shouldn’t grade it much higher?
A lot of people think the current grade will affect the grader which is why they crack them. Most people will tell you there’s very low success with crossovers
I think it is human nature to look closely but I doubt that all of his cards would have gotten the bump perhaps a few but you can't unsee the PSA grades so it has to affect it.
in general, I subtract 1 from the grade on SGC which mostly lines up with this
I don’t want to sound like a conspiracy theorist but I’ve been saying for years that these grading companies are pop controlling those Ray Benge cards.
Haha love it
I mean, it's easy to see once you realize the grader hates the Packers... just rearrange the letters of Ray Benge and you get Green Bay... hence the low score...😂😅🤣😆
PSA pop controls pokemon, especially XY Evolutions, that's the set responsible for the PSA backup in 2020, clowns were sending in thousands of cards try to get a Gemed master set or hundreds of charizards to pass off to the clowns who think it'll be the next Vase set😂
Wouldn’t be surprised if that is the case. Also, I trust SGC more than PSA when it comes to vintage. I also believe the SGC slab looks better when it comes to vintage. I hope collectors stop giving PSA a big edge when it comes to valuation of vintage cards. They should be held in equal regard
A few years ago, a RUclips channel by the name of Vintage Card Curator made a number of videos scrutinizing PSA's practices ("pop control" allegations, authenticating and grading altered cards, etc.). Well worth checking out even in 2024.
There has to be a creas in that ray benge.
It's not what you know, it's who you know. Fact's 💯
SGC and PSA really needs to include the reason for the rating the card received the rating that it did.
Here in Florida there are sports cards shops, whose showcases are filled primarily with SGC graded cards. Prior to Collectors' acquisition of SGC, I always believed it was sad that some people had to be "sold" on SGC and even after the acquisition, i still feel that way. My only concern is SGC's "long-term value, because we all know what happens to 95% of companies acquired by larger companies.
Great video,I haven't sent any vintage to PSA in 2 years
This basically validated PSAs thoughts when you consider SGC is usually a little softer
I’m of the opinion that PSA was softer, and recently started to get get harder.
Or... SGC is in line with proper, industry grading standards and PSA is heading off the deep end in overcompensating and going TOO strict.
There's charts that outline what constitutes an approximate grade for each major card feature (centering, corners, edges, etc). These things have been known for 75 years in collecting. When Chris says "I think this should get a # ", that's the historic data/standard he's pulling from.
Psa waaay softer, clear dimples on cards getting 10’s. people use psa for their horrid grading standards
I trust Chris and his experience over whoever did the grading for psa. Proves psa is not to be trusted. Yet people slavishly send them their cards.
It would be interesting to assign the research department the task of taking one of your recent PSA vintage orders and comping out the PSA grade values, the equivalent SGC grade value and maybe SGC +1 grade values and then see in theory what would have been best to send to.
Not sure if you financially benefited as much your chart says…. Even one grade lower I wouldn’t be shocked if the PSA copy would’ve sold for higher anyway. But def improvement in the brooks psa 3 and mantle authentic.
Great video!!
The authentic bump to 4.5 was the hit. The rest made absolutely no difference. The bump makes up for the sgc price difference from psa this is the 1 time i actually have to say grading was in balance the psa 5 was worth about the same as sgc 6. For once the grading makes sense. Please more video's like this to help people understand it is what it is but its level across the board.
I am totally with you on this one Chris I recently sent a Jake lamotta leaf rookie in to P S.A. And it came get back ungraded, Then I cracked it and sent it to SCG, it came back a 5 P S.A. Has really become inconsistent
Gotta factor in your time as well. I did this with similar order, 10 vintage cards SGC VS PSA, mine was done in reverse.
Appreciate the experiment. I submitted nice 1938 churchman joe louis and jack johnson to psa and they came back 3s. I cracked and resubmitted to psa again and one came back a 5 and 6. Different graders i guess. Nice to get the grades i expected. Too bad only psa made money on the deal.
Beckett brings more value... Real collector's want that. J.s
Thank you for sharing! Considering the grading fees.. do you feel like this was worth it?
Agree sgc is more consistent with their cards
That Goudey looked rough in the PSA slab I had a feeling you were SOL on that one with the resub even with SGC's slightly easier usual results. The 2 looks appropriate to me with those rounded corners (surface obviously tougher to gauge via video). I will pay at/near PSA same grade prices for high eye appeal/centered SGC though.
They just sit back, collect the money and hope people resend them back to collect more.
There's often no other explanation than this. And I'm not one for wearing tin foil hats. Or PSA is just so bad at what they do. Either way, this reflects poorly on them.
Great stuff, congrats
I did the same Please Submit Again and every card got 1 to 3.5 better I don’t trust these people with my cards GO SGC
I have found that SGC grades consistently reflect SGC standards more accurately. this experiment confirms my own anecdotal observation. I think this is a perfect example of why, for collectors, SGC has been taking market share away from PSA: their grades and our eyeballs are in harmony.
Thier grades are slightly higher but bring slightly less money it's almost beautiful how it all works out so harmonic the card in psa holder with a 4 brings same money as the card in sgc 5 it actually is one aspect of grading that this 1 time made complete sense
Totally agree…..about 2 months after the 2022 induction, I sent a Tony Oliva 1963 Topps rookie to PSA. They gave it a 4 and I assumed it would be a 6 or 7, based off of recent ones that had been graded. I cracked it and sent it to SGC and got a 7.5 on it
And at that point, ir had been about 4 months post-induction. I then sold the card (on eBay) for $427 and looked the next week and saw that a PSA 5 had sold for $378. The discrepancy in prices IS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS between PSA & SGC. Imo the SGC slabs look WAAAAAAAAY BETTER on most vintage. They grade more fairly and they’re quicker. I wish people would wake up and see that PSA IS A GIANT PONZI SCHEME, built by the hobby elite (who spend so much $ with PSA that they get grades that us collecting peons could never afford). PSA is the sports card equivalent of governmental kickbacks!!! It is DISGRACEFUL!
@@Mr.JonDoEagree. From MY experience I believe SGC grades easier.
I think i would have to DISAGREE with you on a previous point you made that psa is grading tougher to meet the demands of the market. They are clearly grading tougher in order to skew and control pop reports as this is reflected in your grade assessment, SGCs and even mine (i thought most were way undergraded by psa as well just by eye test).
In no way did psa reflect what any of us thought and knowing the trends of the market where psa high grade brings top dollar, their actions actively prove that.
It is major a statistical anomaly to have most cards grade higher and not a single one grade lower. Literally near impossible unless they are making a statement to selectively make things more difficult to grade higher. Earlier you said their standards have changed as the consumer have changed, but this is NOT what consumers want and its unfortunate what you had to go through. The only way now is to grade SGC or alternative, and it starts with dealers like you... I would put personal values over card value and psa obviously just doesnt care anymore as they get backlogged and raise prices with near none customer service, subpar standards, and artificially lowering grades as is the case here. They dont care anymore so why should we?
I think its interesting they were all so close
shoulda send dem back to psa and check out their.... consistancy
Jim's caddy was a 9 back in that day of the photograph. Today it has no original parts, and does not run, so it's now an "Authentic Altered". ;)
I sent 15 cards to PSA and was majorly disappointed . Some of them I am the original owner and I've had since I was a kid and they were kept in an album . I had a Jerry rice rookie , Steve Young rookie's that were absolutely beautiful . Sharp corners very well centered and came back with moderate grades . Next time I will go to Beckett or SGC
I would argue you would have also gotten similar results just sending back to PSA. Would be an interesting for a second test for the "puzzlers". Just got a small order back with a heavy percentage of "puzzlers" myself. Used to be just one or two per order, this last one was 40% of the order total head scratchers
Ive found I like my cards in one screw or magnetic holders best. Anyone who has collected a long time can look at a card and be within a grade at worst case. No need to waste our money. Sure go grade that Mantel RC but… I have a lot more cards, because I don’t give my money to graders.
Your experience with PSA crossovers to SGC is similar to mine. Try higher end card crossovers (PSA 7-9) as well... you'll be pleased and surprised.
Did I hear you say you submitted PSA grades to SGC as well? I couldn't tell from the rewind, if so, Im not sure this would be a fair eval, I would like to see them go with no info.
That Mantle was nice!
Extremely interesting
You should crossover the Brooks and Mantle to PSA and see what they do.
@adamroth8634 they were already in psa slabs, and graded terribly hence the reason to crack and send to sgc
@@richardbianco9674 I think the point of the crossover back to psa is he could probably get a 4.5/5 on the Brooks and a 3.5/4 on the Mantle after first getting a 3 and an auth respectively.
@@adamroth8634 there's no point now. The amount spent to do that would end up having a net loss. With these grades, value is pretty much equal anyway
Seems like sgc saw the same micro defects as psa but gave you a higher grade for centering.
Chris you didn’t pick any outliers. Its well-known PSA has become super strict on vintage as of late. Although it sucks to have a low-grade, the well-known vintage collector will know the difference between a new and old serial number. The condition contrast is so vast. I’ve seen quite a range of sales history vary between the same card/grades depending on how recently it was submitted.
Definitely interesting results, particularly with some cards that were close in grades, but SGC was never below the PSA grade. I assume the Doerr and Benge have some hard-to-see wrinkle that is obvious under magnification but not to the naked eye. I wonder if the PSA guarantee makes them particularly tough graders, particularly after PSA was purchased by a large company that wanted to reign in any grade guarantee claims and make the guarantee less of a liability.
Sgc has overtaken PSA , much better , like their holders .
I'll stick with old faithful. Mint,good,fair,used. The way it has been graded by those who lived it.
WOW, quite the undertaking. Very much against everything you stand for. having to settle for SGC and crack PSA. maybe break even with the new grades and the extra money you spent for your "experiment". Thanks for sharing.
What in the hell is the world coming too?"Shows to Go ya" how dopey PSA is.
Enjoy the registry folks
Thank you for the very interesting experement! Other than the Mantle, I would have not cracked the PSA slabs and resubmitted - risk / reward not woth it to me.. PS - Mntle is probably worth abot $100 more non-auction from when yoiur analysis was done. Good stuff!!!
I’d love to own the Doerr if you’re selling, Chris!
And they all went up on appearance being in a TUX!
Great video, Chris. Further community evidence PSA’s 19 year-old graders are ill trained, overworked, and careless.
It may well be Brown's Caddy in the background. But the reason it's there is Philadelphia used that generic photo as the background for many of the Brown's cards that year(it's an obvious photoshop).
Do you use different lights or magnifying glasses or rulers to analyze card condition before sending them in? I'm often surprised how lighting can change the way I assess card condition.
I do not but maybe thats something I should consider.
PSA continues to be harsh on vintage, thanks for sharing this
Besides the '67 Mantle, you wouldn't have gained anything from submitting to SGC--therefore, PSA would still make the most sense financially for reselling. However, you did get video revenue I assume for this project so it was worth the effort. I love this type of video segment you create. Thank you
Re-selling is not the only factor. Anyone who wants to display their cards (and isn't vision-impaired) would prefer the aesthetics of the SGC slab. And recent data shows SGC quickly gaining ground + even surpassing PSA in many cases.
As one of the original commenters who suggested this, I feel kind of vindicated. With the caveats that I know 1) you know the hobby better than I do 2) do this for a living, and 3) PSA resale is generally higher than SGC, I still feel like some of your takeaways match my personal experience. SGC is faster, more consistent, has better customer service, and seems to understand vintage grading better than PSA. If this experiment causes you to use SGC more frequently for vintage than previously, I feel like its going to benefit you more financially and benefit the hobby, as your influence would help other vintage collectors.
Thanks as always for your transparent, fair, and well presented videos.
Exactly my experience after grading hundreds of cards with both companies. SGC now gets the bulk of my business as a result
They do look better in the tux.
Chris, can you check the graders notes on the Doerr ?
Neither company provides grader notes
My last 2 PSA submissions have seriously turned me off to getting cards graded as an investment business model. Any grading "surprises" were always a worse grade than expected, never higher. Just too many "puzzlers" that got me pretty pissed. I have one more submission and that will be the last chance for PSA. If I get burned there, I'll be closing my account with them.
@@twoshedsjohnson8540 do you use a magnifying glass for the corners and edges? Do you measure at least to 1/64 of an inch tolerance?
@@garygor1960 I do use a lighted magnifying glass and am thorough checking corners/edges/surface. Will say though that PSA contacted me about my recent submission and wanted me to confirm/accept 3 grades that would push the value of the graded card over the dollar limit for that submission. Getting them back today, so excited to see if this will be a redemption for them. Crossing my fingers.
More proof that grading is subjective, which is why I have a problem with grading.
The one grade higher on average is typical because PSA grades tougher and why they sell for more. The authentic is because PSA looks at every card under a blue light in a dark room which SGC does not! They are not as thorough. PSA saw something on it which is very common for older cards. Also you CANNOT look at these cards with your naked eye and expect to see what the graders are seeing with a loupe.
Ive sent card to psa expecting an 8 and received a 10. Ive also sent in perfect cards that come back as an 8. One batch gets an accurate grade and the next is all over the place. Their quality control and consistency is garbage for the past few years.
NOPE
Have you seen some PSA 10 off centered. PSA owns you literally
@matthew1072a that is completely wrong. Differing light sources is used by all the major grading companies and has been talked about by them. The authentic was because psa deemed it to small. Which back then was common and expected considering the printing and cutting processes used back then.
@@jeffniles7121look at their grading standards. It’s printed on the website. It literally says a 10 can be 60/40. They have been know for going easier on centering for decades.
haha, win win win! psa sgc and you all made money
I have been collecting for along time and have yet to send any of my PC cards to get graded with concerns over the different grading companies practices. I am curious on vintage cards if they grade based on the time period of the card at all. My opinion a grading of a modern card vs vintage should be different. A modern card graded a 10 is not equal to a 10 of a vintage card coming from lets says 1959. Printing practices, packaging, etc were different back then compared to now. What are your thoughts on the differences?
Are you using magnification when looking these over? As always, SGC actually gives you what you pay for when you submit. PSA tends to only give around 60-80% of what you pay for...great company to support along with all the lemmings!
those Doerr grades are a joke, a very minor stain on the back of the card should not knock that down so low.. i can see it being a 6-7 range knocked down to like a 4-5, but 2 suggests it's almost ruined
How much was it to grade those cards with psa? Any extortion fees that psa is known for?
You didn't add the psa grading costs. Did u buy them already slabbed?
I would think most low to mid grade vintage would be the best for SGC in terms of being a dealer. There's not a big difference in prices as those cards usually aren't something that set registry people are looking for. Also, a lot of collectors of those types of cards already use SGC or don't have any issue with buying the slabs....they usually aren't as wedded to PSA.
@Kbunk_Youth_Football_Wrestling bingo. When sgc finally gets it's set registry together, this may change though. But that is the one major factor especially with higher graded cards
What’s the asking price on the Musial?
The problem is obvious...and I'll state the obvious. The problem is that the "major companies" rely on human beings to complete the grading. So naturally you'll get, and continue to get, puzzlers.
I'm convinced the only accurate rating would be through these computer generated grading companies (ie: TAG, AGS, etc).
I refuse and will NEVER submit any of my cards to PSA, SGC or any other human graded company. I've watched too many of these sort of videos and have learned that lesson without having to spend one penny.
CHRIS - Where did that PSA order come back from? I tend to get a fairly high % of the grades correct, but I have noticed something recently. I have been keeping an eye on where my PSA orders are coming back from. I am in CA and have sent in multiple submissions to PSA (at the same time) and some have been getting graded and sent back from LA while others were graded and sent back from New Jersey. First, I don't understand why PSA doesn't just post a Jersey address so we can all just use two locations and cut down on return times. It seems like it would cost them more money and not be worth it to risk shipping orders from LA to Jersey when they are behind, but what do I know. Anyway, my orders that come back from New Jersey always seem like they are graded more harshly. This wasn't just one order, but multiple, and then I noticed it was the case when talking to friends and seeing their results. I have also seen a video or two online where the people said how low their grades seemed and they happened to mention their order came back from Jersey. I am sure not every card is low, but seems like some inconsistency coming out of two different locations.
Looking at your grades, I know Brooks Robinson doesn't sell for a ton like other big stars, but I am surprised it jumped from a 3 to a 5.5 and only increased $50. I'd just think it would be more. Last thing, a side note - I think there is too small a gap between 3's and 4's in value. Not that people should run out and buy 4's or anything. However, given that a 3 is the highest grade a card can get if it has a wrinkle, I would think 4's would have more of a jump in value. Not that every 3 has a wrinkle, but it's the first thing I look for on a 3 and I think there is definitely a line between 3 and below and a 4 and above. Just my 2 cents.
I did not notice where it was sent back from but I'll pay attention to that moving forward.
Sgc does poor for auctions but as a buy it now you can get about the same as psa.
Question is how do you get the respective prices? Market movers? I ask because on Ebay 4.5 SGC on Mantle sold at 338 and 350 about 6 weeks ago.
I used vintagecardprices.com which takes the average of all recent sales across all major platforms.
@@collectorinvestordealer Thanx I will check it out!!
That's a hard way to make a hundred bucks!
it's a public service video, friend. a fascinating experiment with interesting results.
@@sisterraysbrotherfascinating? People do it all the time
Those 1998 Upper Deck Black Diamonds look great, but are a tough grade. I'm making a set of football from that year, and it's hard to do much better than 8/8.5.
You didn't factor the cost (and loss) of the original PSA grading into the equation. Had you not sent them to PSA in the first place you'd be well ahead versus now where you effectively paid them to drop the ball. It's definitely a feather in SGC's cap if you don't want to roll the dice with PSA's "outlier" results, which for all you know could be more often than you might realize.
Chris, really nice work as usual. This was really interesting. I don't know if you're familiar with my Frank Robinson rookie situation, I can send you the details. It's pretty wild. They're Just wildly inconsistent. It depends on the greater. It makes me wonder if long-term AI is the answer...
I am not familiar with your Frank Robinson RC
@@collectorinvestordealer I didn't think so I'll show you the story it was quite the grading adventure
Overall vintage just looks better in SGC slab
Gonna have to show this to Jeremy… maybe he will finally come over to the TUX side
What would you say are your situational requirements for submitting one to SGC versus PSA?
It is a FACT that SGC is way better for vintage (if you like slabbed stuff)
The only issue that i have with your experiment is that I have subbed hundreds of times with SGC and PSA and it has been my experience that SGC is more lenient than PSA regarding corners, so I would expect this batch to do a little better with SGC... In your original post I felt that there were several blunted corners in this collection that you missed or discounted... Usually, vintage cards are similar in most respects: corner condition matches surface condition matches edges, etc... But this lot has really nice surfaces and while that's good the grading process is one of subtraction, so i think the blunted corners are the culprit here... thanks for the vid!
not sure you are enlightening Mr. Chris Sewall. I'm guessing he absolutely did not "miss" or "discount" this vintage batch.
@@nathanmulkey Anyone who grades lots of vintage cards overlooks defects from time to time(myself included)... I think my comments were pretty constructive and I doubt Chris will understand them as anything else...
I thought SGC was on the rise but I now worry about it since SGC got bought out. Technically, a card can be perfect but if stained is considered fair (2) condition.
Maybe you got one of those jerk graders who undergrads vintage cards because they are old. Maybe PSA intentionally undergrads nice vintage cards then targets them for purchase to put a higher grade (then sells them for a nice profit). I wouldn't bet against it,