A few corrections and clarifications for this vid here - please have a read as I'll keep this relatively up-to-date with new findings on the subject: gosforthhandyman.com/corrections/ 1000+ comments and counting - thank you so much for taking the time! I've read almost all of them but there's just too many to reply individually. Many good points. A few where folk obviously haven't watched the whole video. Remember I know SQUAT about heat pumps and based my opinions on first hand experiences from folk using the actual systems I talked about - head over to the Community tab to read those replies. Thanks again, interesting subject, keep the comments coming! 👍👍
My strategy, improve insulation dramatically, oversize radiators and install underfloor heating downstairs when refurbishing, this way your gas boiler will operate really happily in its condensing mode with nice low flow temperatures and you've future proofed the transition to a heat pump.
We've had the larger version of that boiler since 2007 (42Cdi combi) Couple of things to watch out for. Where the condensate pipe leaves the house in very cold winter can freeze causing the boiler to throw an "EA" error and refuse to start. Just use a kettle of hot water to unfreeze the pipe if this happens. Second issue is the "Bearing Plate" this is a metal disk (After the fan in the boiler?) with a disk of rubber attached that acts as a "Flappy Valve" type of thing regulating the air into the boiler? where the metal disk touches the rubber should be coated with the lead from a pencil to stop the rubber disk sticking to it otherwise this also will cause the boiler to throw random "EA" errors and refuse to start once more (Ask me how I know..)
This is the first time I have heard someone speak so eloquent and sensible about climate change and associated issues etc…well done. I’d vote for you 👍🇬🇧
Advocating fossil fuel use is far from sensible or sustainable. These high tech 'combi-boilers' are only as efficient as ever possible through use of microprocessor control and won't work without a power supply. Is the exhaust hot? Sure, and that is a thermal loss. Is the hot water supply to showers and hand basins far hotter than need be, and in fact a scalding risk? Well, if so that is risk and needing further use of tempering valves to prevent personal injury... but in any case excessive fuel use for that function.
I'm on the East Coast and live in the open country side. The first thing you learn about living out of town is that when the bad weather hits the first thing to go is the electric supply. We have had to wait up to three days for the power to come back on. On these occasions we depend on our log burner to supply heat, hot water and even heat for cooking. I'm afraid the Government can demand what ever they want but my log burner is staying put. Brilliant video, spot on with the information.
@@macraghnaill3553 Your "gas fire" operates without an electric power supply? It must be very old now, low efficiency rated by modern standards and near burnt out, literally.
@@BTW... my gas fire ignition operates by battery as does my gas cooker. my gas fire can still be bought , gas fires on sale are either powered by battery or piezo ignition
As someone born and living in Sweden, it's fascinating to listen to this. Here everybody and their mother is going heat pump route and it's been going on for 20-30 years. It's air/air, air/water, ground source (and people here drill "energy wells" as in 200 meter deep holes, not dig up their back yard). It's cold here in the winters. Modern heat pumps still work decently down to -30°C. I currently live in a 50-ties house that originally was built with oil boiler heating, then converted to resistive electric heating. We have no gas. I'm now converting it to ground source heat pump. Everybody else on the street had ground source heat pumps installed 15 years ago, but the then-owner didn't go down that route. This is like first time I visited the UK and the hotel advertised one of its unique selling points, that it had double paned windows. At the time, I lived in an apartment built in 1961 that had triple glasing from the get-go. Fascinating how different world views can be.
Borehole GSHPs are good. I have worked on them. I have also worked on Air source heat pumps, and personally I wouldn't go near one unless it's a small new build with good insulation and underfloor heating.
Yes borehole is the way for a heat pump. I stayed in house in Sweden during winter which had the system. Yes triple glazing is probably standard in Sweden. I do wonder how much solar gain is different between double and triple glazing, to reduce the heat during summer months.
Your area of the world is also known for building very well insulated houses. The UK housing stock was mainly built around the idea that it was first cheap to burn coal and then gas for heating, even now our building standards are something of a joke compared to other parts of the world. So sticking on an air-source heat pump to an average home is a big issue, what is way worse is that the homes are designed around lots of airflow, so just sticking in lots of insulation just causes lots of other issues as the airflow is blocked.
To be fair, your weather does provide quite an incentive to push these measures through. Not to say that the building industry in this country doesn't make me want to tear my hair out! As a then architect, 35 yrs ago I was working towards residential new builds being net zero by 2016. Where did that go? A lot of questions the media presumably thinks is too boring to properly probe.
I am a retired energy professional, I went through the process, here are my findings. I live in the Netherlands, climate here is pretty much as you described yours. My house was built in 1980. I did all the retrofitting needed, and installed a Daikin hybrid heat pump to replace the old combi gas boiler, in early 2017. I now save about 25% of overall CO2 emissions (including that at the power plant) and about 15% "fuel" costs, compared to before 2017. What I missed in your video was a look at the possibility of a hybrid heat-pump. - That would lead to a much lower initial investment. - While you get the best of both worlds. That is: the system runs on gas OR electricity OR both, depending on what is most efficient, either financially or with respect to overall CO2 emissions. A heat pump, of any kind, is ONLY the right thing to consider if ALL boxes are checked, either by design or by retrofitting the house. Particularly: - the house needs to be well insulated: roof, floor, walls, windows, what have you. - Furthermore, you need to have the right (Low Temperature) radiators and/or under floor heating. - Basically you will need to arrive at a situation in which you can heat the house "always" with a water temperature of below 50 C or so and most of the time well below that. The problem is that most professionals, that have always only ever worked with gas boilers (here anyway, oil too in UK probably), are not capable of getting everything right, or if they are people are not ready to pay for advice on how to redesign everything. That's where things go often wrong, you ask for a heat-pump and NO fancy expensive comprehensive advice, the response often is: "you want bananas, we give you bananas" and they install a heat pump for you.
Yes exactly this. I'm also from the Netherlands. And our advantage is we have been working with combi boilers for a long time now, and so we are making the next step. Also, next to that hybrid heat pump you can also think about air conditioners. They heat perfectly fine and don't have dependancies on the radiators and such.
Hi there - We have been looking into heat pumps for a while and have weighed everything up but I cannot get the figures to add up at all. I am interested to read your comment on this video and I cannot help reply to it. You have said you save 15% on energy bills per year, so for example if you had a bill of £2000 per year you save £300 . If you replaced you existing system with a heat pump the installation costs is about £10000 - 15000 for everything including insulating the property properly it will only take between 30-50 years until the heat pump has paid for itself.
@@becausesupsussex4568 Insulation is always a good idea, regardless of the heating source. So in that sense, not really fair towards heat pumps. Just like people saying we need solar panels with heat pumps. And if you really do insulation with proper heat pump insulation you should of course save more money, while energy prices are only getting higher. As an alternative you could apply a high quality aircon for heating. It doesnt have to have the power for the coldest winter days, it can just work 70% of the time, the rest can be done by the existing heating source. That way installation is much cheaper. And no dependencies on the type of radiators and so on.
@@becausesupsussex4568 For "older" houses. just insulating is often saving way more than a heat pump could. In my case insulating (ONLY) lowered the power consumption, for heat only, by over 25%. As things are: Heat pumps are, for many, an environmental thing more than a money saver. That 15% was JUST heat pump effect (on top of insulation effect). At least up to very recent, SINCE: at current (early 2022) prices here (Netherlands) the savings are over 50%, for JUST the heat pump effect. Pay back time calculation are way more complex than they seem. Among many other things, it very much depends on the ratio between prices for electricity versus gas (or oil), and on how you expect those to EVOLVE over the live time of said heat pump. The world is in an energy transition. It seems reasonable to expect that over time greener and cheaper electricity will become available and gas/oil prices will go up considerably more than those for electricity. All things considered, I would definitely NOT invest in a new furnace at this point in time. In fact that's what I have been saying for the last 5 years. ALWAYS: - insulate (well) first and foremost. - otherwise a heat pump is bad investment, for several reasons.
The comment on Bananas is apt, and is why there are EU reg's on bananas, you asked for bananas we sent you bananas (small curved yellow things), technically a banana but inedible, we have retrofitted in the past but will not work for people that want corners cut and will not consider the whole solution.
Hi Andy, just wanted to share my opinion on ASHP. We got one 3 years ago (in Ireland) and I would not go back to anything else for love nor money. It has reduced our heating bills drastically (about 40%) and it gives us a nice comfy temp all year round. Also just wanted to point out that AirSource HeatPumps are also used in Scandinavia where temperatures plummet way below ours and they still do the job properly. You just have to make sure of two things: get a good installer and make sure your house doesn't leak any (or little) heat. The fact that they are better for the environment and that they are better for air pollution in your home, are just bonuses.
ps: a good installer will take everything into consideration: if your house is insutlated well enough, if you rads are the right size etc. but all in all, in the long run, it's worth it.
@@felixreali7101 What system were you using before because a balanced flue condensing boiler will see around a 40-60% saving in the UK when compared to a conventional boiler. Generally in Scandinavia the winter weather is a dry cold not wet so the ice build up on the units is less, needing the resistive heating element of the unit to come on less. Not quite sure why you had air pollution in your home though?
looks like to me you made a safe, dry, warm home using modern building science techniques. that should mean not just low maintenance, but also low utility bills. my hats off to you sir!
Wonderful series and one can only hope that your common sense approach to the environmental future and efficiency reaches vast numbers of people. Well done Mr and Mrs Mac.....yet again,!
We installed an ASHP in our previous home and would do it again in our next. It was a 9kw panasonic unit. As I'm from the Netherlands we have similar weather. Last winter was the coldest in many years with temperatures dropping to -15c. The heat pump is not very efficient with those kinds of temperatures, but that doesn't matter. It's all about the average throughout the year. Our house was built in 2015, so fairly good insulation, which is key. 172m2 floor space and it was a corner house. Underfloor heating downstairs and normal radiators upstairs. Normal radiators worked, but lowh2o ones would've been better. The installation together with a 300l hot water tank was 10k, but we got a 2k government grant. We also installed 18 solar panels which covered the electricity of the heat pump and then some... Yearly kwh usage through the heat pump including hot water, was about 2800kwh. Total electricity bill for everything was about 40 euros a month....
You have described my problem to a tee. I live in the U.S. Air Source heat pumps work great, how ever, in the U.S we use forced air not hydronics. Secondly inverter technology in the air source heat pump has helped make them way more efficient, Mitsubishi hyper heat puts out 100% of its heat capacity at -15c or 5f. But on the other hand, water is a much better heat transfer medium. You can not only modulate flame, but water temperature as well. I’m in the heating and cooling business, where I live in the U.S we do boiler work as well. Good choice and a good brand. I Just don’t want people to get the wrong idea about heat pumps. Inverter Heat Pumps are very quiet, and is efficient, the conventional heat pumps are only work in mild climates where temperatures don’t go lower then 4-5C or 40F. But conventional heat pumps are loud. Again my only experience is with forced air heat pumps.
Too many people are likely to only listen to anecdotal evidence from their echo chambers online. The fact that there are numerous different types of heat pumps with varying efficiency suitability for different climates means that they are a much more suitable option that this video would lead you to believe.
@@MrManningata Well, there's also the fact different countries employ different standards and not everyone is using the same technology or has the same options to choose from... So YMMV, in some aspects like windows some European countries are way ahead but in others they're behind, for example... So what he stated is likely true for his situation and the options available to him locally. Other comments from the UK seem to indicate this to be the case... The UK is not a great market for Mini-Splits. So they may not have access to the better and more advance units that can handle pretty cold temperatures, etc. While it's also a matter of building standards as improper application of any technology can give undesirable results and it did take a few decades for many of the advance building technology today to be developed that we shouldn't forget that it may not be available yet to everyone, and older standards can take a long time to change...
@@ZeoCyberG I remember in a boiler class learning that the UK sells more boilers in a year then all of the United States. I hope my original comment wasn’t taken the wrong way. At least here in the US we seem to be a little behind. The better boilers on the market all seem to come from Europe, Bosch/Buderus, Viessmann and the best oil burner I ever worked on again is from Europe, Riello. I feel like this was a well done video explaining his decision making process and what led him to his decision. I also feel that when natural gas is available and a boiler system is already in the house, a good high efficiency boiler is a great way to go. My first comment was made for the people who live areas who have a lot of forced air systems who believe heat pumps are not good. Ed Manning and you are totally correct as well as this video, take your climate you live in, the technology that is available to you, and your price range to make a well informed decision.
@@MrManningata we do have boilers here in the US but mostly in the North East of the country, we mostly get our hot water from stand alone water heaters. Most common are 40 - 50 gallon or 151.4 - 189.3 liter tank type natural gas, propane, or electric. We do have wall hung water heaters just to do hot water and they are gaining popularity here. We also have heat pump water heaters with electric element back up (tank type) which is also gaining popularity. Believe it or not, in old home renovations here in the US, people are a lot of times removing boiler systems in favor of forced air so they can have cooling as well. It’s always fascinating to me to see how other parts of the world do things, European boiler technology in my opinion is the best, then you have the mini split systems coming out of Asia that are absolutely incredible as well.
well done, Andy Mac! another hot topic from your channel. we also chose to install an efficient gas/combi boiler in our 1910 farmhouse renovation. after months of baffling research (government incentives are equally paradoxical and fickle here in germany) it truly was the most sensible solution for our house and our particular situation. the quotes for 'alternative' heating solutions ranged from 25 k to 65 k euro, possibly somehow including those elusive incentives, but definitely not including in-house pipe and radiator installation, which was needed regardless. the 28 kw gas boiler install was about 3 k euro, and keeps two adults and four dogs in 350 m2 of space plenty warm. the winters here are generally more extreme than you depict in your region, but we have made a real effort to insulate thoroughly throughout the build, and now in our fourth year (yes, still building full time) we see the benefits of this and have never regretted the decision to go with gas. your channel is excellent. not only do you tackle pertinent topics and challenging projects for a your active, hands-on viewers, but you manage to document and deliver them consistently with style and humor. truly wunderbar. thank you for all of that, and for continuing to share with us this renovation. I have been doing this same work full time on our property for years now and still have the need to watch you get dirty. how delightfully insane. dig on.
The one short coming with a on-demand heater is the distance of the furthest sink/shower/bath from the boiler. Especially in a drought prone area like California (obviously no where in the UK). The water waste is excessive unless you add a re-circulation pump, like a Chillipepper, which allows you to pre-circulate the hot water to a distance close to the distant shower/bath to reduce the waste water expelled while you are waiting to be able to step into a warm shower.
A couple years ago my parents switched over to solar panels and ASHP from oil and it works great. It is much quieter than their previous oil heating system, you can't even really hear it at all. (they have a Mistubishi heat pump). Their house is so warm now, it's fab, and works just as well in the really cold months. They did need to change some radiators to bigger ones, but that wasn't a big deal for them.
Your better makes of boiler (Wooster Bosch, Vallent etc) are made to be able to convert to Hydrogen! Wood burning stoves are the next to be blacklisted, but there seems little reason for it if you have an A rated one! Ours was the best investment I have made in out house. The only drawback is that once you light it you end up dribbling and watching the faeries all night! Also there is a battle between the cats and the dog for pole position in front of it! One extra thing that rarely gets mentioned is the chimney. We had a stainless flue put in yet even so when we go to bed the upstairs chimney wall is nice and warm!
Shh don't tell to many people, let them get rip off by the heating engineers.. They don't tell anyone about conversion kits by boiler makers for about 100..the heat pumps people will not be be happy
As someone that has always steered clear of heat pumps over the years, I decided to give a modern 'split' 3.5kw heat pump a go for one of my areas. These blow the air around rather than use conventional radiators. It certainly seems to do the business from what I can tell, was a reasonable DIY fit and cost £650.00. Outside temperature is 21C at the moment and on heat, it brings the temperature up very fast as one would expect, but on cold, which is probably a better test at these temperatures, it works well too, so I am holding out reasonable hopes for winter running. 1:3.5 efficiency and a maximum 1kW input. Still consider many properties in the UK are not suited for full installs and most installers don't have the knowledge to properly assess system requirements but as to the efficiency and performance of modern air source heat pumps, I might just have to start rethinking my stand on them. by the way, spray foam insulation I have seen all sort of issues with over the years with roof's. Foam generally cracks away, moisture gets above it and rots battens and galvanised nails. Depends on the climate it's in but UK has one of the worst moist climates when rot can occur.
Curious how these are doing for heating, now the weather is cooler? Interested as would love them for main bedroom and living area so we could also cool in the summer.
Andy, that was actually a very thoughtful discussion on being environmentally sensitive without being stupid (can I use that word anymore?). Well done video. Also, we use lots of spray foam here in western Canada, with SEVERE weather extremes, with no downsides to speak of (if it's properly installed). Just my thoughts. Cheers.
From what I have heard they are shite. Here is the UK our houses are not that well insulated so they will not be very efficient. New builds may be a different matter but the fans become noisy for neighbours in built up areas.
Very interesting vid Andy. Ive just come across it by chance. I worked as an engineer in a frozen food manufacturer and certainly understand refrigeration. People are being totally misinformed when they are told that heat is extracted from glycol in the underground pipes as if by magic. This liquid is used in the evaporator half of the system to exchange heat from the gasses in this section of the system. The AIR source heat system blows ambient air over the evap coils instead. If this air is moist it will form ice on the coils and the bloody thing will sit there in a defrost mode until its ready to start again 🙄. You are totally spot on with the poor amount of actual heat that comes off the condenser ( Heating) side of the system. Your analogy regarding diesel cars is a fine example of government people spouting BS and expecting people to eat it.
Insulation is key whatever you do to be efficient and . I double glazed the entire apartment, added interior insulation on all exterior walls and had thermally efficient exterior blinds for all windows - then I added the ASHP!
@@michaelwilliams3648 Shutters that are lowered over the outside of the window either at night or when the sun is very hot in the day. Made of aluminium slats with an insulating foam sandwiched within. Reduces noise a little as well.
and any body that argues with someone who buys Bosch well they are showing how much of a rear end they truly are. great choice of product, top of the line.
You make a lot of sense and raise many subjects around heating and hot water, the long and the short of home heating, is to reduce heat loss, not so much the methodology of how to heat your home. Heat Pumps work, fact, NG boilers work fact, it's up to all the engineers in the heating industry to upscale there knowledge, understand the technologies, get out of the shelter of the past, embrace the world troubles in handling future energy in your home. No one overall solution exists to resolve this 21st Century conundrum. We are in troubled times with all energy solutions in heating your home. Simply less heat loss through the building fabric = smaller energy bills.
Thanks for your assessment on heating choice Andy, I'm glad we came to same conclusion. I have a near Identical situation as you, with the house having previously had Eco 7 heating, the only difference I have is a log burner with a back boiler, so this contributes to central heating via heat exchanger when in use.
Hi from Dublin, we've just moved into a 1949 end-of-terrace (pretty much a semi-d) house and I'm glued to this project. We've had two quotes for complete new central-heating and combi-boiler systems, to replace an oil-fired system. 8 radiators, combi-boiler and installation was €9400 and €11300. We'll get through winter with the oil until we figure out what's best.
My neighbor and my niece both installed an air source heat pump in their new builds - hot air rather than hot water systems. Both seem happy with them, but we had a relatively mild winter here in New England, the neighbor's house is less than 500 square feet, and my niece's digs are a new second floor atop her mother's oil-furnace house. Neither use them for hot water. So their heat pumps didn't have to work very hard. A nearby library installed a ground-source heat pump about ten years ago, and the complex plumbing has required expensive repairs. When completed, you'll have a relatively large house and a need for a dependable supply of hot water. You have natural gas available, your boiler was not expensive to install, and if it ever needs repair the parts are readily available. Most of all, the convoluted process for obtaining a government rebate on a heat pump wasn't worth the time and aggravation. While I think heat pumps may eventually become standard equipment, that day has not yet arrived.
@@jeremybarker7577 That they are! I was surprised that in the past couple of years air-sourced heat pumps are being marketed here with some success. I expect you'd still need some backup (electric resistance or propane heater) when the temp gets close to 0 degrees F.
I’m renovating my 3 Bed 1940s home and came to exactly the same conclusion when looking to replace the old system boiler. Went with a 36kw combi boiler, new radiators with thermostatic valves and the shower pressure is great, even got rid of the old pump. Still need to insulate below the ground floor. Heat pumps work great in well insulated, air tight houses but not on older properties. My parents are building a passive house & will be installing a heat pump which will work great for them.
I agree there is a lack of knowledge around thermostats but we do also have a real problem with a lack of ventilation in well insulated properties in this country. I wonder how often those open windows are because of thermostat illiteracy causing overheating houses and how many are people instinctively thinking their house is getting a bit “stuffy” which might actually be a build up of humidity and CO2.
CO2 ? Not with a flue type heater, unless seriously faulty... and in any case that would be CO (carbon monoxide). Not to say these gas and combustion heaters don't create CO2 and H2O emissions.
The CO2 I am referring to isn’t from heaters. CO2 builds up quickly from people in the building breathing it out without any ventilation to let in fresh air.
My prior home had a heat pump (fan forced ducting). It kept the home plenty warm - except during winter power outages. Also, in the winter the 5Kw resistance supplement would kick in, skyrocketing the electric bill. Current house uses gas for heating, electric for cooling. The gas is much cheaper for heating, and I can connect the system to a small generator if the power is out. Our state is wanting to push electric conversion. I’ll resist until forced to. Good luck and great work!
Agree wit you about Eon. Signed up two years ago specifically because I did not have to have a smart meter. Ended up with numerous phone calls and text messages saying my contract said I had to have one. They contacted me about 25 times saying this. Each time I asked them to show me the paragraph which said I had to. They could not. Basically trying to con and bully people.
Npower were awful to deal with, either not charging the right amounts or not issuing bills at all, or issuing bills after the account was settled and closed. I see nothing has changed since e.on swallowed them up
That's not just E-on unfortunately it's most energy companies. They're mandated by the government to get people onto smart meters and actually subject to charges (fines) if they don't get customers to switch over. It's part of the governments sign up to to carbon neutral by 2050, knowing that customers have the right to refuse but not many customers know they can.
Andy, I must say this have been a great review of your decision regarding home heating. Thanks for the effort you put into this video it certainly provides people with a more balanced view of options, in comparison to governments and energy companies. Cheers pal. 👍
Borehole ground source system (doesn't seem to be discussed in video here) should work better than a near underground pipe system, of course there would need to be some sort of drill rig that could get in behind a house. Bunging in a heat pump without reworking the way heat is radiated into the house is really a bad idea, the whole thing needs to be re-reviewed/re-worked.
So here in the States in the rural areas we use propane and it can get really expensive so we put in hybrid systems that use air to air heat pumps down to about 20°, Fahrenheit and then we switch over to the forced air propane furnace. We use a thermostat that's also has an outdoor thermostat and has what they call a balance point setting which is basically where we switch over to gas heat. Some people said it at 32°, some all the way down to 15°, and anything below that you heat with propane. We have also been using spray foam as you said for several years and we use open cell on the roof decking so that even if you get a leak it's no big deal just actually easier to find The leak in a roof because The water will go straight through the open cell foam. All sidewall cavities and foundations we spray with closed cell foam. Then some of us add a thermal break to the inside wall or outside wall or both using 1-in polystyrene with a foil facing and a half inch gap so that you get your radiant barrier. This works especially well on existing roofs where you strip the roof with 2x4s anyway for a steel roof and then fill the gap with 1 in polystyrene foam board with the foil facing up so you get the radiant barrier on your roof. We also have really good water here so some of us use open loop geothermals if we have good wells and we get a 22% federal income tax credit on Geo
My personal thoughts on any modern home conditioning system is that we are stuck with the commonly installed stuff. Every time I watch the excellent Matt Resinger show the new stuff all I can think of is that I need to be building a 500k plus home or it’s out of reach.
Had my ashp now into my 3rd year and have found it so quite I have to go outside to stand in front of it when it's on just to feel the air it puts out. As for the heating system keep the thermostat at 18c and it's fine. I had a combi before I changed and found that if it broke down you got no hot water or heating with the ashp you have a immersion on the tank so at least you can have hot water. So I for one are happy with my choice , as for the grants I get 4 payments a year from the government which in turn pays just about half my energy costs admittedly you only get this for 7 years and by then they probably will some other insensitive, keep up with your video I find them informative
Here in The Great Industrial Northeast we measure winter in months and summer in weeks. Winters can be brutal with temps going down as low as -20°F and wind chills of -45°F, although that is not common. Summers can go into the high 90's F, although we can usually count the fingers on our hands the number of days over 90°F and some summers have none. And, our weather is prone to extremes. One winter may see a few inches of snow and the next, ground is covered in feet of snow although the trend lately has been milder winters. And it may be 82°F one day and the next 54°F. So, one thing around here is the weather is not boring!
Generally agreed with your comments about heating and driving but I think you neglected the real drivers for change which are that gas supplies are declining or coming from increasingly unreliable sources, same for petrol. Also the problem with diesel is not the efficiency but the air pollution. Great channel, thanks for sharing.
Absolutely spot on, Andy! The proper way forward is to insulate and make airtight the old leaky properties, and to update existing kit - my soon to be scrapped boiler was installed in 1974!! Using much less gas is a better answer than switching wholesale to an expensive and unreliable system - more research and development is needed, but the politicians need a 'quick fix' - which always turns out to be neither quick, nor a 'fix'!
We’ve had air source for almost a year now and it works fine, last winter it got pretty cold here in the south east we had large amounts of snow on the ground for a couple weeks and some savagely cold nights and it dealt with it no problems. Only issue is it can seem a bit loud at times but nothing dreadful, just be mindful of where the outside unit is installed.
OK I'd like to take issue with your comments about air source heat pumps. I'm a Domestic Energy Assessor now retired. We spent a Christmas at Winchester at a lodge that had such a system fitted, So as a DEA that had never come across one I was really interested in how it panned out. Everyone thinks that they can add it to existing radiators WRONG it's more efficient using under floor piping. With hard frosts every night. We were warm and comfortable had lots of hot water for showers and couldn't hear a damn thing from the fan. The owner of the lodges had, had all the Lodges fitted with them. He said he'd saved a fortune as all that he was paying for was the electric to turn the fan. So yes they do work. In America they are used extensively. LOVE your vids by the way
With wood burners it's the particulate pollution, rather than the carbon dioxide that's the issue, even with the new standard there is still PM 2.5 emissions and smaller which are strongly linked to asthma and lung cancer.
@@girlsdrinkfeck no one could ever handle a bit of soot, it gave them lung disease and they died earlier than they should have, and lived in a worse state of health.
Not only totaly agree also its a fact. That's itsbad. I geuss the antivax and a like ( conservatives ) always have a problem with anything they dont like
What an excellent video! A pragmatic discussion of all options, and very useful for others with period properties who may be weighing up their options. It may be, of course, that combi boilers will keep going in the future by using hydrogen, if the experiments in the North East go well. (Of course, the old town gas, made from coal, was around 50% hydrogen, so it’s not such a new concept.)
@@SteveHit1 That's true, however, as you say it's 50% H2 and that would eliminate ~50% emissions compared to pure nat gas. Perhaps we should produce H2 via electrolysis and mix that into nat gas...
@@JohnnyMotel99 I agree totally with your suggestion for addition of H2 to natural gas. As you say, it would result in a massive reduction in emissions, with only minimal effort - especially in comparison with heat pumps.
@@SteveHit1 This adding H2 to Nat gas is actually a thing. It’s been proposed to uk government that 20% H2 could be added to our gas network and save millions of tons of CO2. That could be the limit before burners needed alterations, but maybe not.
I came to the same conclusion to avoid ashp's to replace gas boilers when renovating our property. Tbh your video is the best i've seen on the internet discussing them, would have helped bigtime when I was researching.
I love the guy too but the RHI isn't all that difficult to work out. In fact if he had had a heating engineer out (heat pump trained) they would have explained it to them done a heating calculation for the house to see how well it would work. He's put in so much work on insulation that I'm confident it would work fine. It would mean having it on a low level all the time in the winter, used in a very different way to blast on blast off. But these things are used widely in much colder places than Newcastle and work just fine. And as Andy says thicker radiators. Gas boilers emit twice as much greenhouse gases as power stations in the UK and 8x the amount of N02 too (linked to air pollution deaths, cancers lung, heart and vascular disease Inc. Strokes / dementia - you don't want this stuff being pumped out of your house where you, your kids and neighbours breathe it in.
Totally agree with all you've said re Combis and Wood burning stoves (& politics). We have identical boiler and very happy with the economics, efficiency and the quietness! Our WBS heats an 8 x 4 metre living room beautifully but you must use seasoned wood - essential. Therefore you need a regular wood supply and a wood store outside, properly vented to prevent rot, so ideal for us in the Norfolk countryside but not necessarily for city folk with their limited space. Thanks for a brilliant little series that for once I can watch and not have to do and pay for !! All the best, Jeroen.
I've just been through this entire thought process. I am (slowly - I am a complete novice) renovating a property I inherited for me and my young family to move into; and wanted a non vented system... I had dreams of utilising a low voltage heating element in the cylinder in place of the 240v one; and using electric solar panels without an inverter to heat water as a 'thermal battery'. Anyway: I did some finger in the air engineering on it and could NOT make the numbers work unless someone donated me a load of modern solar cells and a cheeky wink. What is a FAR better solution (much faster ROI) in MY situation is installing insulation and mush more modern glazing as part of my renovation. This in itself is fraught with issues as I will be doing much of the work myself. That said; my house is also approx 100 years old and has solid walls. I.E. the ROI for insulation is much higher(sooner) for me than many others out there. I would also consider myself something of an environmentalist (raised a flower child hippy, that got an engineering degree) and wouldn't even mind paying a little extra to reduce my family's carbon footprint. But there are better things to spend money on: quality of life to ensure my children have the opportunities many don't and therefore the luxury to be able to make choices in their future that impact the environment less. All of which is a very flowery way of saying: I think wasting less energy and money will pay off in the long run.
I have more or less finished converting a 150yr old barn loft into a 'modern' apartment. New roof, new floor, and a service loft ready for MVHR ducting, and to hide the spray foam. All heating options were considered, gas was a given until the provider increased the original 1k quote to 3k after 6 months to connect to the grid. There was also issue of losing headroom with underfloor heating versus radiators on walls. So . . I invested heavily in insulation - spray foam between rafters in loft, 7" of kingspan in floor joists and apx 2" of insulated plaster straight onto the stone outer walls. Pretty airtight, and maximises thermal mass. Still no actual heating installation apart from shower fan. Oil filled electric rads - 1 always on low over winter keeps building fabric warm, top up as need, if working from home, still trying to decide.
I did the same with my 110 year old terrace house. New windows (double glazed with argon gas) and new exterior doors. I built stud walls against the party walls and insulated those too. New loft insulation, added insulation to all other stud walls - all insulation is rockwool acoustic. I filled every gap I could find with expanding foam. I had a combi boiler fitted to replace oil burner and later replaced all heating pipes and radiators. The result was less pipework and rads that suited the room sizes better. Most years my gas bill has been around £250 per year for all heating, water and cooking. My first winter the oil heating did not work and I was spending £25 per week to heat one room with an electric heater!
I've just bought a property in the country that has a clapped out oil fuel boiler. Like you I was skeptical about heat pumps because of all the negative reviews I'd heard. But after quite a lot of research on the subject, I now believe if the system is designed specifically for each situation, and correctly installed, heat pumps will work either at a comparable cost to gas, or cheaper. Plus you maybe able to help run the system with solar panels.
Disagree with the comments regarding the ashp. Designed and installed correctly they are more efficient than gas. The reason you over size the radiators is because the heat output is not at 70c like a gas boiler instead lower flow temps but still putting the same level of heat to heat your home. The systems are designed to provide full heat down to -15c and for this reason you purposely oversize them for the worst case scenario. Your other option is air to air which allows you to have cooling in the summer. The bad sides of this are people ripping homeowners off and not understanding what they are installing and then homeowners expecting instant heat and turning it off in between timings. If you also have access to mains gas gas then this is preferable anyway as gas is cheaper (currently) than electric but prices are going up for us all. I've got an air to air system at home (I live in west Yorkshire) we live near a city and there is lots of traffic noise. We also have a combi boiler (3 years old Ideal Vogue C32 which is 90 efficient). The air con is the best in summer and we use it to circulate clean fresh air. I've just done the number crunching based on the new prices following our energy supplier going bust the company we are moving to our tariff is going to double. If the temperature is above 0c then it will be cheaper to run the air con in heating. After that efficiency starts to drop off and gas takes over based on the price per unit of energy right now. Sized correctly and in the right house (no access to mains gas) a air source unit is the way to go over other forms of electric heating.
23 minutes spray foam insulation. We just had vaguely similar thing with our GRP flat roofs - the online insurance questionnaires don't have them in the roof type pick list. Would have had to pay extra to specialist insurer. Went back to a company we used in past and spoke to a real person who could think - she gave lower quote than reason we had left them. A lot of very lazy, simplistic, non-thinking assessment systems in this country
Great sensible approach heat pumps good in new builds, insulation is the key with low temperatures in existing property it’s a problem and the costs prohibitive .
I was recommended the only way I could heat my house (large detached victorian property, solid walls, etc) with an ASHP was to have a hybrid oil model, the quote (before RHI repayments) along with some other plumbing works I wanted was £24k, .. £1k of that was just radiators. Also, "in the winter it will almost certainly be running entirely off of oil", it couldn't do both at the same time. I asked for a quote for a new external oil boiler with the same plumbing works above minus radiators (they were only needed just for RHI) and it came in under £9k. I think max RHI repayments was £10k repaid over numerous years. The maths just didn't work out sadly. So oil boiler it is.
@@TheFarmingEngineerUK Only a month or so ago. It was a large vicarage that was knocked through into the neighbouring house to make one big very cold one. The incoming boiler (26kwh) supports bio-fuel although that still appears to be in trials.
Can you imagine how much heating using a heat pump will cost people now. Renewable heat incentive ended or ending this month for new installations and the eye watering cost of electricity. Yet they still try and convince people to swap.
Wood burning stoves - problem is not the carbon footprint, it's the microscopic soot particles that, as with older diesel cars, is vastly more dangerous than envisaged a few years ago. We were going to install one in our 1930s semi in London and now glad we didn't. We did make same decision about new combi gas boiler this year - incredibly efficient and long warranty. Also upgraded a couple of radiators. Very good decision. Will put electric fake wood burner in remaining fireplace for quick heat when don't need radiators on. But rads on low permanently is better than on and off because don't have to warm house from zero every time they come on. Two showers and one bath - powerful hot water in all. Cost same as yours. Also massively upgraded insulation, like you
The biggest thing that annoys me when it comes to climate change discussions, is that it isn't really us, it's big industries causing all the damage. That said, I don't think people should own cars unless essential. But that's mostly down to there being too many cars.
I feel the main issue with the comparisons, is they are argued based on efficiency where ASHP absolutely wins. But in the UK, mains gas is so cheap it's practically free whereas electricity is quite expensive. (It's about 1000%(10x) in price between the 2 per KwH) Obviously Gas prices are set to skyrocket over the next few years, but I doubt electricity will sit around. Also, The amount of issues I've had with British Gas and Scottish Power, I don't think E.On are any worse of the big 6.
I've generally had no problems with EON and were with them for some time, I had more issues with British Gas customer service. But I guess everyone will have different experiences
10:26 Excuse me but what? First of all, you dont have to dig up all your garden. You drill a hole (bore well) and put the pipes there. That takes about two square meters of space. No large scale digging or big mess. Secondly, what makes you think the heat differential isn't enough. They work here in Finland in -25'C just fine so they woud work in your -8'C as well. Same thing with the air source heat pumps. I installed air source heat pump back in 2007 and it has been heating my 120m2 house since without any problems. We have had several -30'C time periods also and the pump still have worked ok. Of course at those extremely low temperatures it does consume same amount electricity as direct electric heater. Maybe your source of information isn't very good or something....
I’m thinking of going the GSHP route and for me bore holes is the only route but boy are the holes expensive I’m being quoted £14k for three 100 metre holes. So if anyone knows a cheaper way of getting bore holes in SY11 UK happy to hear about it.
I'm 2-3km south of Andy and there are (coal) pit workings underneath us. In the maps I can find online, as of 1892 there were no pits where he is ... but for some reason /sarcasm installers around here want to do a (chargeable) test bore before quoting.
@@chrisbenson1217 Often that is down to effecting the local water table in the local area, we had several schools down south that ended up with carpet GSHP due to the proximity of the local water table to the surface. Andy backs onto a river so I expect the water table around there is quite high and environmental health have to get involved when in that situation for permissions.
We have an old Victorian stone-built detached house, for which we had a new heating system installed 5 years ago. Our heating was formerly via a gas boiler housed in a Rayburn cooker, which was designed to operate both for cooking and central heating. It was costing us a fortune and was not heating the house adequately. We eventually decided on a hybrid system, which consists of a 16kw Air Source Heat Pump and a 32kw Gas Boiler. The AS Heat Pump takes care of heating when the outside temp is above 5c, then the gas boiler takes over at lower temperatures. The gas boiler heats the water, but we also have a 4kw solar array which can power the heat pump in the right weather conditions, but which also heats the water (300l insulated tank) via a solar i-boost system which automatically diverts spare solar electricity to heat the water. Even in the Winter, the heat pump is normally carrying out heating duties, as more often than not, the temp is above 5c. We also have a wood burner in one room (living room). In our experience, the heat pump has been superb, it has saved us a lot of money in energy costs and also did not cost any more to install than a 'gas only' system would have, because we benefited from a reduced VAT rate on the installation, due to it being a renewable heat source. We have underfloor heating in our cellars and oversized (triple) radiators everywhere else in the house, so we can run the heat pump at a low water temp (45c). You don't need wide bore piping (as you mis-leadingly have stated in this video), our existing 15mm copper piping has been retained throughout, except for the stretch between the heat pump which is outside and our gas boiler on the inside. The triple radiators were not expensive to install. The heat pump will operate down to approx -15c, but gets less efficient the colder the outside temp is, which is why we choose to switch over to gas at 5c or below. Also, the heat pump is not excessively noisy, you would struggle to hear it outside if you stand more than a few yards away, so your comments about 200 houses running this on a housing estate makes no common sense. Also, points made about servicing are misleading - AS Heat Pumps don't require servicing if installed correctly and filled with the correct Glycol solution. Our annual service is for the gas boiler, not the AS Heat Pump, which has an expected 25 year life span.
I've been agonising over what system to use in my new build for months, I had a quote of 16K for an ASHP setup and I was pretty happy with it. I work in live events and I had a gig cancelled just as I was about to order thanks to COVID this kept happening so I kept delaying waiting for work to start again. Since this didn't happen there came a point where I had to dismiss ASHP and look at other options so I finally decided on a 100L water heater (£185) for hot water and a 19KW 3 phase electric boiler (£1400). I'm running 200sqm's of wet UFH and 5 rads (sized for a ASHP system) the electric boiler will heat water easily to my required 45 degrees which is almost its lowest setting. I don't expect my electricity bills to be unusually high but even if they are a little higher than normal I'm much happier not laying out the extra 14.5K for the ASHP which in my case when I can would be better suited channeled into solar and far more useful.
Very understandable choices. However do not put in microbore piping to the radiators but 15 mm. You can always swap a radiator (not that expensive) but it is a hassle to change underfloor piping. Though (we have just done it in an old 1865 farmhouse) not actually as bad as we had feared. We did not need to redecorate at all.
Good video. The case for ASHP systems falls apart when you look at running costs. At best you will get 3Kw of heat from 1Kw of electricity via an ASHP. When temperatures drop towards zero you'll struggle to get 1.5kw. A good gas boiler is over 90% efficient. Even today with scary increases in gas prices electricity remains more than 5 times the price of gas. Do the maths, generating 1kw of heat from an ASHP costs way more than 1Kw from a gas boiler. ......and thats before you get to installation costs, the need for huge radiators and the noise issues etc. The RHI grants for ASHPs are ( in my opinion) also a racket. You can only get it if you have the system installed by a certified installer. It's wide open to abuse because all the installer has to do is sell the system through finance which effectively gets funded by the RHI payments. The RHI money is just disappearing into installers pockets, its a pointless exercise.
False claims, sorry to say. Most of the winter you actually get 5 kWh of heat out of 1 kWh of power. I have been running them myself. Only when it is -10 it falls to numbers like that, 1 on 3. My current new house is running mostly 1 on 6 with this weather. And so it is not a wild claim that heat pumps are 500% efficient, as it is just transporting heat. Whereas a combi boiler only makes 9kWh out of 10kWh in a cubic meter of gas. So heat pumps are in fact more efficient to run even when the power comes from a gas power plant. Our previous well insulated row house only used 220kWh of power for heating over a year! Remember that heat pumps are used in Scandinavia, our weahter is easy compared to that.
In Scandi the heat pump runs in drier weather so does not need to defrost frequently in icy conditions. Their electricity is truly green and cheap, ours is neither. Regarding the heat pump installation companies making lots of money- they waste much of their time chasing customers who, when they work out the pitfalls, never go ahead. Frankly it is a mugs game selling heat pumps, we have stopped offering the due to Government distortion in the market.
I find myself agreeing with a huge number of your comments, it is a shame that politicians are worried about their image instead of reality. We are in the process of having CH installed, Previously we had an immersion heater and gas fires in the 2 downstairs rooms. Brought up in the old fashioned way we lived with no heating in the summer. Only old age and a free grant is making us use this fixing of CH.I just hope its worth it in the end,
Djesus. We are never decarbonising at this rate. I don't blame you for going down this route, but this is doing quite a bit of harm. Not that this is the place to discuss it. It's just a bit sad we're shafting our kids.
Uhm, Norway here, regular temps down into the -20's, and although the condenser is less efficient it heats my 1920's house (with no extra insulation installed) just fine. Why are you getting just crap condensers that can't even handle -8?!
A very timely find, just doing the same thing, 1930 terrace in need of modernising with no heating but has gas supply. Was thinking going all electric but actually the numbers don’t stack up and this has helped me make come to the same conclusion!
Very interesting, Andy. I have foam loft insulation and a combi boiler so you have set my mind at rest. Very few people can sit and chat with no notes and pass on technical information in a way that even I can understand it 🌞
@@MarcusT86My next door neighbour and I still have coal fires and if these Ecomaniacs tell us to get rid of them, we'll chase the buggers with our iron pokers! Enjoy your log burner. It's an investment for your home. I'll never block my fire up and it kept me warm when my central heating packed in twice in a week at the start of the year.
@@danielagiovanazzi2055 thank you Daniela. Autumn nights are going to be lovely indeed, and snowy nights… oh my, coziness off the charts. Our ancestors were starting fires for warmth for literally over a million years, and I’m not stopping now over some authoritarians.
We have recently fitted a Worcester combi to replace a 15 year old combi, the only reason being that before we shuffle off, the old one would require replacing, and it may be, by then, a mandatory heat pump job. So at a cost of just over £2K we hope to be future proof. The higher efficiency might see an associated saving, but only time will tell In addition to the downsides you've highlighted of heat pumps and efficiency there is also the footprint of the storage cylinder. We've been in this house a long time, and had the original cylinder taken out years ago, and the resultant change to the shape of the room, losing that 3' square cupboard was dramatic. Whether there is a space for a cylinder and the associated gubbins is moot. We're just down the road from you, on Teesside, so the weather is much the same, minus the smog of course
Extremely glad you covered this topic. Was considering installing an ASHP which would have required substantial works on my behalf to replace gas pipes that were too narrow. Will update to a newer combi and larger radiators instead. Thank you.
Over here in Ireland the council are fitting air source heat pumps in every house new and old pulling out oil boilers and fireplaces, the big reset i say we're in for a few rough winters
Leaving aside the technicalities of installation, electricity costs six times as much per kWh than gas does. If a heat pump system is 200% efficient (the best you'll get in the coldest weather, when you use it the most) that means it will cost three times as much to run as a gas powered system. If the price of gas rises (as it will) the cost of electricity will rise in step with it. So this won't change significantly. My view is that we shall have to install a huge excess of renewable power sources, which will be needed to cover periods of low supply, high demand. So there will be massive oversupply all the rest of the time. So making green hydrogen will be the obvious answer. If the gas mains were supplying hydrogen, the next problem would be capacity. You need a much bigger volume of hydrogen for the same amount of energy.
Might as well just use electric directly for heating if you have massive oversupply. Hydrogen is really inefficient to make. But maybe something else like ammonia would be better.
I agree with your analysis but In the long run, with more solar and wind generation, and gas no longer an option, electricity will become much cheaper than hydrogen, because hydrogen will be needed to produce electricity only a very small amount of the time. Most of the time, solar and wind will produce electricity very cheaply, as it is doing already. Nuclear electricity is also available 24/7, and it's cheaper than gas already. Hydrogen will be more expensive than Gas because it's made from electricity, with 15-30% conversion and compression losses, so it's very inefficient as a fuel, but it's still useful as a seasonal buffer because it can be stored in large quantities very cheaply. We can't assume that more renewables will produce ever cheaper electricity to produce cheap hydrogen. In reality, the price of renewable electricity cannot continue to decline much more, because the cost of building and maintaining wind and solar farms must be paid for, otherwise no one will build them.
We're in the Hudson Valley NY where winter temps go down to 10F in February and summer temps go into the 90's F. My neighbors have had geothermal for 3 years and kept warm and cool no problems. We went from an ASHP and an oil furnace combination to geothermal this year. The ASHP kept us warm down to 30F then the oil furnace kicked in saving many gallons of oil. The ASHP worked with no problems during the time we had it. We have vertical loops for the geothermal so it doesn't require a lot of land although we do have 20 acres. Unfortunately the land is all in one direction and our neighbors are very close. So far the geothermal is working fantastically! After all the credits and rebates the system cost $22,000 USD.
I've delt with air source heat pumps here in the Northeastern Seaboard of the US, the view on them is they work well enough for cooling in the warmer months, but you really need a secondary heat source for colder snaps during the Winter.
Oh boy you’re going to get the internet trolls chiming in with differing points of view of this one Andy. I did feel the first half of your video was unbalanced against ASHP with side comments that “they won’t work properly”, but then when you got into the ramble it was a much more balanced position, and I absolutely agree with you that there are pro’s and con’s and no single right answer for everyone - just the first half you come over as very biased. My situation, earlier this year I’ve paid for and had installed an ASHP. The pump does make a noise when its operating but its not massively noisy as you suggest, its more of a background hum, so don’t necessarily agree with the comments about excessive noise in residential areas - kids playing and lawnmowers are much more noisy. So why did I buy an ASHP. We’re in a village with no mains gas and so previously had to use heating oil. The oil tank reached end of life, started leaking, so had to do something to replace it. The tank was in the back garden but the house had been extended both sides so to get a new one in we’d have had to hire a crane, plus there is all the government noise about oil and gas heating being phased out. The ASHP cost just over £11k but we will get almost all that back via the RHI government grant, meaning it cost about the same as a new tank, no crane hire cost, and I felt it was a better long term solution. You absolutely need to find a proper company to design and install it (and getting comparative quotes proved difficult for me). Radiators need to be upgraded, but that and a new super-insulated hot water tank was all in the price. You have to have lots of loft insulation (I had to put more down) and cavity wall insulation to get the energy rating to receive the grant. The grant application was a pain, they required lots and lots of evidence, but once I gave it all, the money started coming through every quarter. Running costs are very similar to the price of oil, and longer term I expect as gas and oil prices go up, it’ll be slightly better. So far its worked perfectly, no issues at all, plenty of hot water and a warm house. One thing to consider is that the hot water cylinder and equipment needs to be physically near to the ASHP - this meant a load of plant going in our utility room. We now have a empty airing cupboard though! In my circumstances yes I probably would buy an ASHP again. If I had the choice of gas I would find it a much harder decision to make. Final comment, as a country we need different thinking about how we heat our homes. For example, rather than every home having its own individual heating source, move towards larger more efficient boilers for whole streets/blocks of flats. Ground source heat pumps and large ASHP’s can make more sense under those circumstances
Great comments - heartily endorse everything you say. We have had a very similar experience with ditching oil for ASHP with the key being insulation and air-tightness with a mechanical ventilation system.
+1 from me as well. We moved to an ASHP with the RHI grant from on old microbore LPG system. First we wanted to remove the micro bore radiator pipes, as they were buried in the walls and secondly we wanted to move off LPG and mains gas wasn't available. We live in Wales and often go down to -7c. The ASHP isn't as efficient at that temp but it keeps our 80's bungalow at 21c without issue. As with most things in life, people need to look at their specific situation and not be influenced by general statements that are either 100% positive or negative.
Completely agree with the Worcester bosch choice for 2021. Very efficient and quiet and the smart capabilities are excellent. Other technologies are relatively in their infancy and thanks for another great video. 🙂👍
Great video and excellent discussion about heat pumps and the way the UK government are trying to force us down this route. It will almost definitely end in an about turn in a few years time. I had the exact same boiler system installed in my property in January 20 to replace a 20 year old boiler and its amazing. It’s reduced my gas bill significantly and of course I now longer need a large hot water tank in my airing cupboard or a header tank in the attic. I have solar and a battery and have been looking at different technologies and recently purchased an infra-red panel for my garden office. I have been truly impressed with this, it is efficient, it heats the thermal mass instead of the air and is thermostatically controlled. If I did need to change my heating system I would certainly look at these for my main property. They can be installed on walls, ceilings or freestanding and can be made to look like a mirror or even a picture. There are loads of different technologies out there and often the ones pushed by the government and reported in the press are not the ones worth looking at.
Excellent video - I think the main point is not what heat source you use but just 3 words - Insulation! Insulation! Insulation! We did a newbuild about 5 years ago and after being fed up of a very stinky and disgusting oil boiler for the previous 12 years we made absolutely sure we insulated the new place to an almost Passivhaus standard and installed an ASHP for the heat source (no gas main in our area) and underfloor heating for downstairs only. This has worked really well and the electricity bill is around £1,200-£1,300 per annum keeping the house at a constant 22 degrees in the winter with no cold spots and plentiful hot water. I know you have insulated your project to a high standard this has to be the most important thing. No matter what heat source you use it is incumbent on all of us not to waste the heat we produce but to keep it in the house rather than leaking it into the atmosphere. I would be really interested to know if you are/will be using a Mechanical Ventilation Heat Recovery system to ventilate the house (vital) whilst keeping heat in?
I worry about the information out there about how burning hydrogen is considered environmental friendly because when burned with pure oxygen it produces water. But a hydrogen gas boiler will burn with air and product nitrogen oxides not something we want to add any more to our towns and cities. Certainly hydrogen in a fuel cell is doable but that produces electronic. The boiler industry (pushed by Worcester Bosch) is betting on hydrogen to keep boilers alive after the ban. They hope to use the current gas network but hydrogen is much lighter than natural gas so its very difficult to get it to your home without pumping it not to mention the production of hydrogen is currently far from green. Can you imagine the chaos of switching over from natural has to hydrogen to use the current network! Given the boiler ban will happen soon (2025) I believe the boiler we had installed this year will be the last we can have.
@@highpath4776 Hydrogen from electrolysis is clean but it’s an incredibly inefficient process so you need masses of input energy. We would have to go heavy on nuclear power to make its work and it’s to the scale that it would be 2-3 times what’s needed to power all homes with ASHP. Hydrogen will have its place in ships and planes but for homes investing in electricity would be the way.
The calorific value of hydrogen being much higher than LPG which is higher than gas means less fuel will be burnt overall effectively lowering Nitrogen Oxide output. The boiler ban in 2025 is also only on new build houses not on current properties and we went through much the same issue swapping from Towns Gas to Natural Gas on the same network. It is also not just Worcester Bosch pushing for Hydrogen, it's all the manufacturers and the gas transporters themselves (SGN etc) considering the forced upgrade of the gas mains mandated by the government, they obviously want to earn their investment back as the government won't be covering their losses otherwise. Any it would be switched over in stages across the network like Towns to Natural was previously and any boilers running on the mix or pure hydrogen will likely need upgrading with UV sensors for flame supervision safety devices as the current industry safety device doesn't work in the same way.
Thanks, I watched this from start to finish and really enjoyed it. Small thing, but I was wondering if you need a 36kw boiler for this property? The central heating would never need anything like that, and as you mentioned, the hot water output is limited to 24kw. So surely 24kw would be plenty for everything and this would be more efficient and less stress on the boiler?
If you use a 24 kw combi boiler your hot water output at the taps would be reduced , this is why we fit larger output combi boilers to overcome this problem , personally I would have fitted a megaflo and small 20 kw heat only system and that would have been more than enough for constant hot water at a decent pressure and would be a lot cheaper to run long term....👍
@@thenullco with combi's it's almost always the hot water demand that drives the output of the boiler, space heating is a lower demand, in small properties this can mean the boiler is mismatched and has to cycle a lot.
Got an air source heat pump it lasted 6 years and heat exchanger has lost gas 2 times god knows how much pollution I've done now great video I'm back on oil now
Basic common sense thank you for posting. I particularly liked the comment about many people do not know how to use a thermostat. Sounds extreme but so true. I have a modern combi system and four standalone heat pumps. When only moderately cold e.g. 7 degrees C I run just the heat pumps only. Any colder then HP's become increasingly not cost effective to so I switch on the gas boiler and run both at the same time as a hybrid do to speak. In really cold periods statistically less than 30 days per year in my part of the world i use 100% gas. Where the heat pumps work really well is summer time air conditioning and even then its situation specific as I have a lot of glass in my property. My neighbours with properties of different construction from mine do not need air con. The lesson to be learned is do your research first on HP's and work out for yourself if suitable. Absolutely do not blindly follow government advice.
We have reverse cycle air conditioning as it gets pretty warm in summer and heat is needed in winter. (Outer Sydney Aus) Just had a new unit fitted today! Our old LG system gave up the ghost a month back (18 yrs old) The new Daikin Cora unit is far more efficient than our old one. We have found over the years that 7.1 kw is good enough for our needs. In winter, we tend to use a wood fire. Finding good well seasoned wood isn’t a problem. It’s also pretty efficient. March to September has cost us approximately £100 for wood. Some wood I can just collect off the ground in the local bush. The Aircon only used occasionally when the fire has been allowed to go out. Now considering installing a Tesla Power Wall due to power outages during storms. We have lost all electrical power twice this year. Once for 4 days and again for 2. Thank goodness for a gas fired BBQ and a 2000 w generator!
"Just whenen we hit the point of efficiency, they try to move people away from it " Judging by the number of people that got on board, I'd say people are smart enough to not fall for it.
set your boiler flow temperature to 50 degrees. see if that gets your house hot enough. that's a very basic test to see if heat pump could work for you.
For all the heat pumps that fail - it’s basically an install / design fault. If a room currently needs say a 1kw heater to warm it using a boiler - you will still need a 1 kw heat source in that room but supplied with your heat pump so you won’t be any colder/warmer. All the pipe sizes need to be correct and you’ll need to achieve a Cop rating as high above 4 you can get just to match the costs of using a gas boiler .
Andy, thanks, a very interesting and thoughtful piece. We are seniors, just moved into a 2003 build house (in the UK) and are staggered to find it did not have cavity wall insulation (it now has). Our last experience with a combi boiler was in 1989-97 and things have moved on lots. Since 2007 we have had a pressurised tank system and we find it is fine. This summer, our first in this house, we have had the water heating for 90 minutes from 0730 daily and it produces water for showers in the morning and hot water the rest of the day whenever we need it and the gas consumption has been 38 units (therms) over 13 weeks, say 3 therms per week. We have the usual 400mm loft insulation but whether we have insulated floor - who knows, we have no paperwork. Like you, we think GSHP and ASHPs are pie in the sky, unaffordable for most people. Thanks again, great content.
I’m not sure how you checked - our 2003 home has wall insulation - it’s attached to the interior wall,leaving a small cavity so water doesn’t permeate. Interior walls are thermo bricks and the floor is insulated. This was a standard construction by a large house builder at the time.
When we bought this house, a dormer bungalow three years ago, the oil boiler was from 1970. Gas wasn’t an option, so we went with a new, very efficient oil boiler and an air source heat pump. We couldn’t find a certified installer so any grants were not possible The oil heats the house quickly in a cold morning, then we switch over to the heat pump. Running costs, heap pump 20p per hour - oil £250 per year. The ASHP usually turns off at 20C in the open plan living area, radiators are at 35C. The ASHP is very quiet except in temperatures below freezing when it work much harder. The dual system works very well for us as long as we are aware of hoe we are using it. No problems or complaints.
VERY GOOD POINT !!! Do NOT throw out good existing products (like a diesel car) to get a newer (hipper, more modern) thing. I own a 65 year old motorcycle. I've had it for 40 years and now they tell me I can not drive it in some city centers? !!
Hey Andy Mac! More interesting content. Mrs. Mac's palace is coming along nicely. I suspect your ongoing efforts will keep you in her good graces for some time to come. Both of ya keep doin' you! Stay healthy, keep playing.
I'm in the West Midlands and work at home most of the time. It's a 4 bed detached and I use one of the bedrooms as an office. There are a number of servers in here in a rack which kick off a lot of heat. I've replaced the double glazing (good stuff) this year and now I'm now doing a lot of audio recordings for work. To keep the noise down I have to close the windows because I need to keep the noise down to a minimum and I have to kill some of the servers but with latent heat it's distractingly hot in here. So I decided to go for air conditioning for my office. I didn't realise that newer systems are heat pumps and can heat as well as cool - That for me is an unexpected bonus - how good they are for heating will be proven over time. I did a little research on air to air systems and so decided to have one in my office, one in the living room and one in the main bedroom. I have an old combi boiler which does need to be replaced and a new gas fire in the lounge. I was absolutely not going to ditch gas for heating and rely on heat pumps alone. That would be stupid. At lower temperatures they become less efficient. The grants seem to be based on ditching gas, so no. With the rocketing prices of fuel the heat pumps may well be worth while for heating - I'm not in a position yet to judge that. Regarding diesel - I've always been an advocate of petrol over diesel and do not like driving an oil burner. I guess my concerns have been proven over time. I like the idea of having an electric car, but range for me is an issue and just how will the grid cope with everyone charging their cars overnight if everyone decided to go for one? Lack of infrastructure IMO. Great idea but no joined-up thinking on implementation. Ikea......just no.
I live in a house in the uk with an air source heat pump system, but instead of radiators it is connected to 3 fan coil units, two wall mounted ones on the ground floor and a single unit concealed in the loft feeding air through ducts to the upstairs rooms, plus it’s connected to the water tank too and heats the water too - works brilliantly, House is cosy and warm in winter (plus it cools in summer) - my installer said “they work great until you try to connect them to a water filled central Heating system” - guess I was lucky I was replacing storage heaters and didn’t have an existing radiator system
A few corrections and clarifications for this vid here - please have a read as I'll keep this relatively up-to-date with new findings on the subject: gosforthhandyman.com/corrections/
1000+ comments and counting - thank you so much for taking the time! I've read almost all of them but there's just too many to reply individually. Many good points. A few where folk obviously haven't watched the whole video. Remember I know SQUAT about heat pumps and based my opinions on first hand experiences from folk using the actual systems I talked about - head over to the Community tab to read those replies. Thanks again, interesting subject, keep the comments coming! 👍👍
My strategy, improve insulation dramatically, oversize radiators and install underfloor heating downstairs when refurbishing, this way your gas boiler will operate really happily in its condensing mode with nice low flow temperatures and you've future proofed the transition to a heat pump.
@@edc1569 ... gas prices have surged 500%. I look forward to his future video on how well his new government funded ASHP is working :D
We've had the larger version of that boiler since 2007 (42Cdi combi) Couple of things to watch out for. Where the condensate pipe leaves the house in very cold winter can freeze causing the boiler to throw an "EA" error and refuse to start. Just use a kettle of hot water to unfreeze the pipe if this happens. Second issue is the "Bearing Plate" this is a metal disk (After the fan in the boiler?) with a disk of rubber attached that acts as a "Flappy Valve" type of thing regulating the air into the boiler? where the metal disk touches the rubber should be coated with the lead from a pencil to stop the rubber disk sticking to it otherwise this also will cause the boiler to throw random "EA" errors and refuse to start once more (Ask me how I know..)
This is the first time I have heard someone speak so eloquent and sensible about climate change and associated issues etc…well done. I’d vote for you 👍🇬🇧
was going to say exactly the same Graham - handyman's got at least two votes...
He’s got my vote. I’ve looked into air pump heat and I wouldn’t want it.
Very interesting and well
Presented . Frightening though as we’ve just had spray foam, I hope that doesn’t mean the house is now unmortgageable !
...'eloquently' and 'sensibly'. HTH
Advocating fossil fuel use is far from sensible or sustainable.
These high tech 'combi-boilers' are only as efficient as ever possible through use of microprocessor control and won't work without a power supply.
Is the exhaust hot? Sure, and that is a thermal loss.
Is the hot water supply to showers and hand basins far hotter than need be, and in fact a scalding risk? Well, if so that is risk and needing further use of tempering valves to prevent personal injury... but in any case excessive fuel use for that function.
I'm on the East Coast and live in the open country side. The first thing you learn about living out of town is that when the bad weather hits the first thing to go is the electric supply. We have had to wait up to three days for the power to come back on. On these occasions we depend on our log burner to supply heat, hot water and even heat for cooking. I'm afraid the Government can demand what ever they want but my log burner is staying put. Brilliant video, spot on with the information.
YES! I live in coastal Cumbria and the power goes off, always have a gas fire as instead of electric just in case
@@macraghnaill3553 Your "gas fire" operates without an electric power supply? It must be very old now, low efficiency rated by modern standards and near burnt out, literally.
@@BTW... my gas fire ignition operates by battery as does my gas cooker.
my gas fire can still be bought , gas fires on sale are either powered by battery or piezo ignition
@@macraghnaill3553 So, no room or oven circulation fans to help reduce fuel consumption in either appliance.
@@BTW... the oven doesn't need a fan, neither does the gas fire.
what gas fire uses a fan?
I'm not bothered about fuel consumption
As someone born and living in Sweden, it's fascinating to listen to this. Here everybody and their mother is going heat pump route and it's been going on for 20-30 years. It's air/air, air/water, ground source (and people here drill "energy wells" as in 200 meter deep holes, not dig up their back yard). It's cold here in the winters. Modern heat pumps still work decently down to -30°C.
I currently live in a 50-ties house that originally was built with oil boiler heating, then converted to resistive electric heating. We have no gas. I'm now converting it to ground source heat pump. Everybody else on the street had ground source heat pumps installed 15 years ago, but the then-owner didn't go down that route.
This is like first time I visited the UK and the hotel advertised one of its unique selling points, that it had double paned windows. At the time, I lived in an apartment built in 1961 that had triple glasing from the get-go. Fascinating how different world views can be.
Borehole GSHPs are good. I have worked on them.
I have also worked on Air source heat pumps, and personally I wouldn't go near one unless it's a small new build with good insulation and underfloor heating.
Yes borehole is the way for a heat pump. I stayed in house in Sweden during winter which had the system. Yes triple glazing is probably standard in Sweden.
I do wonder how much solar gain is different between double and triple glazing, to reduce the heat during summer months.
Your area of the world is also known for building very well insulated houses. The UK housing stock was mainly built around the idea that it was first cheap to burn coal and then gas for heating, even now our building standards are something of a joke compared to other parts of the world. So sticking on an air-source heat pump to an average home is a big issue, what is way worse is that the homes are designed around lots of airflow, so just sticking in lots of insulation just causes lots of other issues as the airflow is blocked.
To be fair, your weather does provide quite an incentive to push these measures through. Not to say that the building industry in this country doesn't make me want to tear my hair out! As a then architect, 35 yrs ago I was working towards residential new builds being net zero by 2016. Where did that go? A lot of questions the media presumably thinks is too boring to properly probe.
I am a retired energy professional, I went through the process, here are my findings.
I live in the Netherlands, climate here is pretty much as you described yours.
My house was built in 1980.
I did all the retrofitting needed, and installed a Daikin hybrid heat pump to replace the old combi gas boiler, in early 2017.
I now save about 25% of overall CO2 emissions (including that at the power plant) and about 15% "fuel" costs, compared to before 2017.
What I missed in your video was a look at the possibility of a hybrid heat-pump.
- That would lead to a much lower initial investment.
- While you get the best of both worlds. That is: the system runs on gas OR electricity OR both, depending on what is most efficient, either financially or with respect to overall CO2 emissions.
A heat pump, of any kind, is ONLY the right thing to consider if ALL boxes are checked, either by design or by retrofitting the house.
Particularly:
- the house needs to be well insulated: roof, floor, walls, windows, what have you.
- Furthermore, you need to have the right (Low Temperature) radiators and/or under floor heating.
- Basically you will need to arrive at a situation in which you can heat the house "always" with a water temperature of below 50 C or so and most of the time well below that.
The problem is that most professionals, that have always only ever worked with gas boilers (here anyway, oil too in UK probably), are not capable of getting everything right, or if they are people are not ready to pay for advice on how to redesign everything.
That's where things go often wrong, you ask for a heat-pump and NO fancy expensive comprehensive advice, the response often is: "you want bananas, we give you bananas" and they install a heat pump for you.
Yes exactly this. I'm also from the Netherlands. And our advantage is we have been working with combi boilers for a long time now, and so we are making the next step.
Also, next to that hybrid heat pump you can also think about air conditioners. They heat perfectly fine and don't have dependancies on the radiators and such.
Hi there - We have been looking into heat pumps for a while and have weighed everything up but I cannot get the figures to add up at all. I am interested to read your comment on this video and I cannot help reply to it. You have said you save 15% on energy bills per year, so for example if you had a bill of £2000 per year you save £300 . If you replaced you existing system with a heat pump the installation costs is about £10000 - 15000 for everything including insulating the property properly it will only take between 30-50 years until the heat pump has paid for itself.
@@becausesupsussex4568 Insulation is always a good idea, regardless of the heating source. So in that sense, not really fair towards heat pumps. Just like people saying we need solar panels with heat pumps.
And if you really do insulation with proper heat pump insulation you should of course save more money, while energy prices are only getting higher.
As an alternative you could apply a high quality aircon for heating. It doesnt have to have the power for the coldest winter days, it can just work 70% of the time, the rest can be done by the existing heating source. That way installation is much cheaper. And no dependencies on the type of radiators and so on.
@@becausesupsussex4568
For "older" houses. just insulating is often saving way more than a heat pump could.
In my case insulating (ONLY) lowered the power consumption, for heat only, by over 25%.
As things are: Heat pumps are, for many, an environmental thing more than a money saver.
That 15% was JUST heat pump effect (on top of insulation effect).
At least up to very recent, SINCE: at current (early 2022) prices here (Netherlands) the savings are over 50%, for JUST the heat pump effect.
Pay back time calculation are way more complex than they seem.
Among many other things, it very much depends on the ratio between prices for electricity versus gas (or oil), and on how you expect those to EVOLVE over the live time of said heat pump.
The world is in an energy transition.
It seems reasonable to expect that over time greener and cheaper electricity will become available and gas/oil prices will go up considerably more than those for electricity.
All things considered, I would definitely NOT invest in a new furnace at this point in time. In fact that's what I have been saying for the last 5 years.
ALWAYS:
- insulate (well) first and foremost.
- otherwise a heat pump is bad investment, for several reasons.
The comment on Bananas is apt, and is why there are EU reg's on bananas, you asked for bananas we sent you bananas (small curved yellow things), technically a banana but inedible, we have retrofitted in the past but will not work for people that want corners cut and will not consider the whole solution.
Hi Andy, just wanted to share my opinion on ASHP. We got one 3 years ago (in Ireland) and I would not go back to anything else for love nor money. It has reduced our heating bills drastically (about 40%) and it gives us a nice comfy temp all year round. Also just wanted to point out that AirSource HeatPumps are also used in Scandinavia where temperatures plummet way below ours and they still do the job properly. You just have to make sure of two things: get a good installer and make sure your house doesn't leak any (or little) heat. The fact that they are better for the environment and that they are better for air pollution in your home, are just bonuses.
ps: a good installer will take everything into consideration: if your house is insutlated well enough, if you rads are the right size etc. but all in all, in the long run, it's worth it.
No Felix it's literally impossible for them to work north of Cardiff. A RUclips comment said so! 😂😂
@@felixreali7101 What system were you using before because a balanced flue condensing boiler will see around a 40-60% saving in the UK when compared to a conventional boiler. Generally in Scandinavia the winter weather is a dry cold not wet so the ice build up on the units is less, needing the resistive heating element of the unit to come on less. Not quite sure why you had air pollution in your home though?
@@effervescence5664 burning gas ,releases toxins that go into your home, same as a gas burner on a stove
In the middle of this winter, you can kick back in the toasty warm comfort of all the hard work you've done.
looks like to me you made a safe, dry, warm home using modern building science techniques. that should mean not just low maintenance, but also low utility bills. my hats off to you sir!
Wonderful series and one can only hope that your common sense approach to the environmental future and efficiency reaches vast numbers of people. Well done Mr and Mrs Mac.....yet again,!
We installed an ASHP in our previous home and would do it again in our next. It was a 9kw panasonic unit. As I'm from the Netherlands we have similar weather. Last winter was the coldest in many years with temperatures dropping to -15c. The heat pump is not very efficient with those kinds of temperatures, but that doesn't matter. It's all about the average throughout the year.
Our house was built in 2015, so fairly good insulation, which is key. 172m2 floor space and it was a corner house. Underfloor heating downstairs and normal radiators upstairs. Normal radiators worked, but lowh2o ones would've been better. The installation together with a 300l hot water tank was 10k, but we got a 2k government grant.
We also installed 18 solar panels which covered the electricity of the heat pump and then some...
Yearly kwh usage through the heat pump including hot water, was about 2800kwh. Total electricity bill for everything was about 40 euros a month....
You have described my problem to a tee. I live in the U.S. Air Source heat pumps work great, how ever, in the U.S we use forced air not hydronics. Secondly inverter technology in the air source heat pump has helped make them way more efficient, Mitsubishi hyper heat puts out 100% of its heat capacity at -15c or 5f. But on the other hand, water is a much better heat transfer medium. You can not only modulate flame, but water temperature as well. I’m in the heating and cooling business, where I live in the U.S we do boiler work as well. Good choice and a good brand. I Just don’t want people to get the wrong idea about heat pumps. Inverter Heat Pumps are very quiet, and is efficient, the conventional heat pumps are only work in mild climates where temperatures don’t go lower then 4-5C or 40F. But conventional heat pumps are loud. Again my only experience is with forced air heat pumps.
Too many people are likely to only listen to anecdotal evidence from their echo chambers online. The fact that there are numerous different types of heat pumps with varying efficiency suitability for different climates means that they are a much more suitable option that this video would lead you to believe.
@@MrManningata Well, there's also the fact different countries employ different standards and not everyone is using the same technology or has the same options to choose from... So YMMV, in some aspects like windows some European countries are way ahead but in others they're behind, for example... So what he stated is likely true for his situation and the options available to him locally. Other comments from the UK seem to indicate this to be the case...
The UK is not a great market for Mini-Splits. So they may not have access to the better and more advance units that can handle pretty cold temperatures, etc. While it's also a matter of building standards as improper application of any technology can give undesirable results and it did take a few decades for many of the advance building technology today to be developed that we shouldn't forget that it may not be available yet to everyone, and older standards can take a long time to change...
@@ZeoCyberG I remember in a boiler class learning that the UK sells more boilers in a year then all of the United States. I hope my original comment wasn’t taken the wrong way. At least here in the US we seem to be a little behind. The better boilers on the market all seem to come from Europe, Bosch/Buderus, Viessmann and the best oil burner I ever worked on again is from Europe, Riello.
I feel like this was a well done video explaining his decision making process and what led him to his decision. I also feel that when natural gas is available and a boiler system is already in the house, a good high efficiency boiler is a great way to go. My first comment was made for the people who live areas who have a lot of forced air systems who believe heat pumps are not good. Ed Manning and you are totally correct as well as this video, take your climate you live in, the technology that is available to you, and your price range to make a well informed decision.
@@randysmith3828 you don't have boilers in the US? How do you get hot water?
@@MrManningata we do have boilers here in the US but mostly in the North East of the country, we mostly get our hot water from stand alone water heaters. Most common are 40 - 50 gallon or 151.4 - 189.3 liter tank type natural gas, propane, or electric. We do have wall hung water heaters just to do hot water and they are gaining popularity here. We also have heat pump water heaters with electric element back up (tank type) which is also gaining popularity. Believe it or not, in old home renovations here in the US, people are a lot of times removing boiler systems in favor of forced air so they can have cooling as well. It’s always fascinating to me to see how other parts of the world do things, European boiler technology in my opinion is the best, then you have the mini split systems coming out of Asia that are absolutely incredible as well.
well done, Andy Mac! another hot topic from your channel. we also chose to install an efficient gas/combi boiler in our 1910 farmhouse renovation. after months of baffling research (government incentives are equally paradoxical and fickle here in germany) it truly was the most sensible solution for our house and our particular situation. the quotes for 'alternative' heating solutions ranged from 25 k to 65 k euro, possibly somehow including those elusive incentives, but definitely not including in-house pipe and radiator installation, which was needed regardless. the 28 kw gas boiler install was about 3 k euro, and keeps two adults and four dogs in 350 m2 of space plenty warm.
the winters here are generally more extreme than you depict in your region, but we have made a real effort to insulate thoroughly throughout the build, and now in our fourth year (yes, still building full time) we see the benefits of this and have never regretted the decision to go with gas.
your channel is excellent. not only do you tackle pertinent topics and challenging projects for a your active, hands-on viewers, but you manage to document and deliver them consistently with style and humor. truly wunderbar.
thank you for all of that, and for continuing to share with us this renovation. I have been doing this same work full time on our property for years now and still have the need to watch you get dirty. how delightfully insane. dig on.
Please speak now about how good and warm will be the winter with a gas boiler, I bet you already search a heat pump.
One of the best ‘holeistic’ videos I’ve watched on this very interesting subject.
The one short coming with a on-demand heater is the distance of the furthest sink/shower/bath from the boiler. Especially in a drought prone area like California (obviously no where in the UK). The water waste is excessive unless you add a re-circulation pump, like a Chillipepper, which allows you to pre-circulate the hot water to a distance close to the distant shower/bath to reduce the waste water expelled while you are waiting to be able to step into a warm shower.
A couple years ago my parents switched over to solar panels and ASHP from oil and it works great. It is much quieter than their previous oil heating system, you can't even really hear it at all. (they have a Mistubishi heat pump). Their house is so warm now, it's fab, and works just as well in the really cold months. They did need to change some radiators to bigger ones, but that wasn't a big deal for them.
Your better makes of boiler (Wooster Bosch, Vallent etc) are made to be able to convert to Hydrogen!
Wood burning stoves are the next to be blacklisted, but there seems little reason for it if you have an A rated one! Ours was the best investment I have made in out house. The only drawback is that once you light it you end up dribbling and watching the faeries all night! Also there is a battle between the cats and the dog for pole position in front of it!
One extra thing that rarely gets mentioned is the chimney. We had a stainless flue put in yet even so when we go to bed the upstairs chimney wall is nice and warm!
ah yes, 'Wooster Bosch' and 'Vallent'. Your better makes of boiler.
Shh don't tell to many people, let them get rip off by the heating engineers.. They don't tell anyone about conversion kits by boiler makers for about 100..the heat pumps people will not be be happy
As someone that has always steered clear of heat pumps over the years, I decided to give a modern 'split' 3.5kw heat pump a go for one of my areas. These blow the air around rather than use conventional radiators. It certainly seems to do the business from what I can tell, was a reasonable DIY fit and cost £650.00. Outside temperature is 21C at the moment and on heat, it brings the temperature up very fast as one would expect, but on cold, which is probably a better test at these temperatures, it works well too, so I am holding out reasonable hopes for winter running. 1:3.5 efficiency and a maximum 1kW input. Still consider many properties in the UK are not suited for full installs and most installers don't have the knowledge to properly assess system requirements but as to the efficiency and performance of modern air source heat pumps, I might just have to start rethinking my stand on them.
by the way, spray foam insulation I have seen all sort of issues with over the years with roof's. Foam generally cracks away, moisture gets above it and rots battens and galvanised nails. Depends on the climate it's in but UK has one of the worst moist climates when rot can occur.
Curious how these are doing for heating, now the weather is cooler? Interested as would love them for main bedroom and living area so we could also cool in the summer.
Andy, that was actually a very thoughtful discussion on being environmentally sensitive without being stupid (can I use that word anymore?). Well done video. Also, we use lots of spray foam here in western Canada, with SEVERE weather extremes, with no downsides to speak of (if it's properly installed). Just my thoughts. Cheers.
Why wouldn’t you be able to say stupid
From what I have heard they are shite. Here is the UK our houses are not that well insulated so they will not be very efficient. New builds may be a different matter but the fans become noisy for neighbours in built up areas.
Very interesting vid Andy. Ive just come across it by chance. I worked as an engineer in a frozen food manufacturer and certainly understand refrigeration. People are being totally misinformed when they are told that heat is extracted from glycol in the underground pipes as if by magic. This liquid is used in the evaporator half of the system to exchange heat from the gasses in this section of the system. The AIR source heat system blows ambient air over the evap coils instead. If this air is moist it will form ice on the coils and the bloody thing will sit there in a defrost mode until its ready to start again 🙄. You are totally spot on with the poor amount of actual heat that comes off the condenser ( Heating) side of the system. Your analogy regarding diesel cars is a fine example of government people spouting BS and expecting people to eat it.
Insulation is key whatever you do to be efficient and . I double glazed the entire apartment, added interior insulation on all exterior walls and had thermally efficient exterior blinds for all windows - then I added the ASHP!
I would like triple glazing with internal blind does it exist ?
What is an "thermally efficient exterior blinds"?
@@michaelwilliams3648 are they the horizontal strips that jut out like on commercial properties that reduce glare?
@@michaelwilliams3648 Shutters that are lowered over the outside of the window either at night or when the sun is very hot in the day. Made of aluminium slats with an insulating foam sandwiched within. Reduces noise a little as well.
@@highpath4776 A quick check with Google says ‘yes’
Thanks for having the different video Sections labeled. This is the 1st time I've seen that.
and any body that argues with someone who buys Bosch well they are showing how much of a rear end they truly are. great choice of product, top of the line.
You make a lot of sense and raise many subjects around heating and hot water, the long and the short of home heating, is to reduce heat loss, not so much the methodology of how to heat your home. Heat Pumps work, fact, NG boilers work fact, it's up to all the engineers in the heating industry to upscale there knowledge, understand the technologies, get out of the shelter of the past, embrace the world troubles in handling future energy in your home. No one overall solution exists to resolve this 21st Century conundrum. We are in troubled times with all energy solutions in heating your home. Simply less heat loss through the building fabric = smaller energy bills.
Thanks for your assessment on heating choice Andy, I'm glad we came to same conclusion. I have a near Identical situation as you, with the house having previously had Eco 7 heating, the only difference I have is a log burner with a back boiler, so this contributes to central heating via heat exchanger when in use.
Hi from Dublin, we've just moved into a 1949 end-of-terrace (pretty much a semi-d) house and I'm glued to this project. We've had two quotes for complete new central-heating and combi-boiler systems, to replace an oil-fired system. 8 radiators, combi-boiler and installation was €9400 and €11300. We'll get through winter with the oil until we figure out what's best.
My neighbor and my niece both installed an air source heat pump in their new builds - hot air rather than hot water systems. Both seem happy with them, but we had a relatively mild winter here in New England, the neighbor's house is less than 500 square feet, and my niece's digs are a new second floor atop her mother's oil-furnace house. Neither use them for hot water. So their heat pumps didn't have to work very hard. A nearby library installed a ground-source heat pump about ten years ago, and the complex plumbing has required expensive repairs.
When completed, you'll have a relatively large house and a need for a dependable supply of hot water. You have natural gas available, your boiler was not expensive to install, and if it ever needs repair the parts are readily available. Most of all, the convoluted process for obtaining a government rebate on a heat pump wasn't worth the time and aggravation. While I think heat pumps may eventually become standard equipment, that day has not yet arrived.
New England winters are generally significantly colder than winters in the UK.
@@jeremybarker7577 That they are! I was surprised that in the past couple of years air-sourced heat pumps are being marketed here with some success. I expect you'd still need some backup (electric resistance or propane heater) when the temp gets close to 0 degrees F.
I’m renovating my 3 Bed 1940s home and came to exactly the same conclusion when looking to replace the old system boiler. Went with a 36kw combi boiler, new radiators with thermostatic valves and the shower pressure is great, even got rid of the old pump. Still need to insulate below the ground floor. Heat pumps work great in well insulated, air tight houses but not on older properties. My parents are building a passive house & will be installing a heat pump which will work great for them.
I agree there is a lack of knowledge around thermostats but we do also have a real problem with a lack of ventilation in well insulated properties in this country. I wonder how often those open windows are because of thermostat illiteracy causing overheating houses and how many are people instinctively thinking their house is getting a bit “stuffy” which might actually be a build up of humidity and CO2.
CO2 ? Not with a flue type heater, unless seriously faulty... and in any case that would be CO (carbon monoxide). Not to say these gas and combustion heaters don't create CO2 and H2O emissions.
The CO2 I am referring to isn’t from heaters. CO2 builds up quickly from people in the building breathing it out without any ventilation to let in fresh air.
My prior home had a heat pump (fan forced ducting). It kept the home plenty warm - except during winter power outages. Also, in the winter the 5Kw resistance supplement would kick in, skyrocketing the electric bill. Current house uses gas for heating, electric for cooling. The gas is much cheaper for heating, and I can connect the system to a small generator if the power is out. Our state is wanting to push electric conversion. I’ll resist until forced to. Good luck and great work!
Agree wit you about Eon. Signed up two years ago specifically because I did not have to have a smart meter. Ended up with numerous phone calls and text messages saying my contract said I had to have one. They contacted me about 25 times saying this. Each time I asked them to show me the paragraph which said I had to. They could not. Basically trying to con and bully people.
Npower were awful to deal with, either not charging the right amounts or not issuing bills at all, or issuing bills after the account was settled and closed. I see nothing has changed since e.on swallowed them up
That's not just E-on unfortunately it's most energy companies. They're mandated by the government to get people onto smart meters and actually subject to charges (fines) if they don't get customers to switch over. It's part of the governments sign up to to carbon neutral by 2050, knowing that customers have the right to refuse but not many customers know they can.
Andy, I must say this have been a great review of your decision regarding home heating. Thanks for the effort you put into this video it certainly provides people with a more balanced view of options, in comparison to governments and energy companies.
Cheers pal. 👍
Borehole ground source system (doesn't seem to be discussed in video here) should work better than a near underground pipe system, of course there would need to be some sort of drill rig that could get in behind a house.
Bunging in a heat pump without reworking the way heat is radiated into the house is really a bad idea, the whole thing needs to be re-reviewed/re-worked.
So here in the States in the rural areas we use propane and it can get really expensive so we put in hybrid systems that use air to air heat pumps down to about 20°, Fahrenheit and then we switch over to the forced air propane furnace. We use a thermostat that's also has an outdoor thermostat and has what they call a balance point setting which is basically where we switch over to gas heat. Some people said it at 32°, some all the way down to 15°, and anything below that you heat with propane. We have also been using spray foam as you said for several years and we use open cell on the roof decking so that even if you get a leak it's no big deal just actually easier to find The leak in a roof because The water will go straight through the open cell foam. All sidewall cavities and foundations we spray with closed cell foam. Then some of us add a thermal break to the inside wall or outside wall or both using 1-in polystyrene with a foil facing and a half inch gap so that you get your radiant barrier. This works especially well on existing roofs where you strip the roof with 2x4s anyway for a steel roof and then fill the gap with 1 in polystyrene foam board with the foil facing up so you get the radiant barrier on your roof. We also have really good water here so some of us use open loop geothermals if we have good wells and we get a 22% federal income tax credit on Geo
My personal thoughts on any modern home conditioning system is that we are stuck with the commonly installed stuff. Every time I watch the excellent Matt Resinger show the new stuff all I can think of is that I need to be building a 500k plus home or it’s out of reach.
Brilliant, and timely for me, video! Thanks. Especially loved and agree with your cup-of-tea segment in your ‘office’.
Had my ashp now into my 3rd year and have found it so quite I have to go outside to stand in front of it when it's on just to feel the air it puts out. As for the heating system keep the thermostat at 18c and it's fine. I had a combi before I changed and found that if it broke down you got no hot water or heating with the ashp you have a immersion on the tank so at least you can have hot water. So I for one are happy with my choice , as for the grants I get 4 payments a year from the government which in turn pays just about half my energy costs admittedly you only get this for 7 years and by then they probably will some other insensitive, keep up with your video I find them informative
Here in The Great Industrial Northeast we measure winter in months and summer in weeks.
Winters can be brutal with temps going down as low as -20°F and wind chills of -45°F, although that is not common.
Summers can go into the high 90's F, although we can usually count the fingers on our hands the number of days over 90°F and some summers have none.
And, our weather is prone to extremes. One winter may see a few inches of snow and the next, ground is covered in feet of snow although the trend lately has been milder winters.
And it may be 82°F one day and the next 54°F.
So, one thing around here is the weather is not boring!
Generally agreed with your comments about heating and driving but I think you neglected the real drivers for change which are that gas supplies are declining or coming from increasingly unreliable sources, same for petrol. Also the problem with diesel is not the efficiency but the air pollution.
Great channel, thanks for sharing.
Absolutely spot on, Andy! The proper way forward is to insulate and make airtight the old leaky properties, and to update existing kit - my soon to be scrapped boiler was installed in 1974!!
Using much less gas is a better answer than switching wholesale to an expensive and unreliable system - more research and development is needed, but the politicians need a 'quick fix' - which always turns out to be neither quick, nor a 'fix'!
We’ve had air source for almost a year now and it works fine, last winter it got pretty cold here in the south east we had large amounts of snow on the ground for a couple weeks and some savagely cold nights and it dealt with it no problems. Only issue is it can seem a bit loud at times but nothing dreadful, just be mindful of where the outside unit is installed.
OK I'd like to take issue with your comments about air source heat pumps.
I'm a Domestic Energy Assessor now retired. We spent a Christmas at Winchester at a lodge that had such a system fitted, So as a DEA that had never come across one I was really interested in how it panned out. Everyone thinks that they can add it to existing radiators WRONG it's more efficient using under floor piping. With hard frosts every night. We were warm and comfortable had lots of hot water for showers and couldn't hear a damn thing from the fan. The owner of the lodges had, had all the Lodges fitted with them. He said he'd saved a fortune as all that he was paying for was the electric to turn the fan. So yes they do work. In America they are used extensively. LOVE your vids by the way
With wood burners it's the particulate pollution, rather than the carbon dioxide that's the issue, even with the new standard there is still PM 2.5 emissions and smaller which are strongly linked to asthma and lung cancer.
farts, volcanoes, wildfires, things decaying...life dude.
@@monabale8263 no wonder humans r weak these days lol cant handle a bit of soot
@@girlsdrinkfeck no one could ever handle a bit of soot, it gave them lung disease and they died earlier than they should have, and lived in a worse state of health.
@@Lewis_Standing thats some woke cukkage
Not only totaly agree also its a fact. That's itsbad. I geuss the antivax and a like ( conservatives ) always have a problem with anything they dont like
Super practical plain common sense chat. Thank you.
What an excellent video! A pragmatic discussion of all options, and very useful for others with period properties who may be weighing up their options.
It may be, of course, that combi boilers will keep going in the future by using hydrogen, if the experiments in the North East go well.
(Of course, the old town gas, made from coal, was around 50% hydrogen, so it’s not such a new concept.)
How energy intensive is town gas production?
@@JohnnyMotel99 Hi Rob. No idea really, as it was phased out in the U.K. in the sixties, and it’s not coming back now!
@@SteveHit1 That's true, however, as you say it's 50% H2 and that would eliminate ~50% emissions compared to pure nat gas. Perhaps we should produce H2 via electrolysis and mix that into nat gas...
@@JohnnyMotel99 I agree totally with your suggestion for addition of H2 to natural gas. As you say, it would result in a massive reduction in emissions, with only minimal effort - especially in comparison with heat pumps.
@@SteveHit1 This adding H2 to Nat gas is actually a thing. It’s been proposed to uk government that 20% H2 could be added to our gas network and save millions of tons of CO2. That could be the limit before burners needed alterations, but maybe not.
I got an ad for heat pump while watching this!!
I came to the same conclusion to avoid ashp's to replace gas boilers when renovating our property. Tbh your video is the best i've seen on the internet discussing them, would have helped bigtime when I was researching.
I love the guy too but the RHI isn't all that difficult to work out. In fact if he had had a heating engineer out (heat pump trained) they would have explained it to them done a heating calculation for the house to see how well it would work.
He's put in so much work on insulation that I'm confident it would work fine.
It would mean having it on a low level all the time in the winter, used in a very different way to blast on blast off. But these things are used widely in much colder places than Newcastle and work just fine. And as Andy says thicker radiators.
Gas boilers emit twice as much greenhouse gases as power stations in the UK and 8x the amount of N02 too (linked to air pollution deaths, cancers lung, heart and vascular disease Inc. Strokes / dementia - you don't want this stuff being pumped out of your house where you, your kids and neighbours breathe it in.
Totally agree with all you've said re Combis and Wood burning stoves (& politics). We have identical boiler and very happy with the economics, efficiency and the quietness! Our WBS heats an 8 x 4 metre living room beautifully but you must use seasoned wood - essential. Therefore you need a regular wood supply and a wood store outside, properly vented to prevent rot, so ideal for us in the Norfolk countryside but not necessarily for city folk with their limited space. Thanks for a brilliant little series that for once I can watch and not have to do and pay for !! All the best, Jeroen.
I've just been through this entire thought process. I am (slowly - I am a complete novice) renovating a property I inherited for me and my young family to move into; and wanted a non vented system... I had dreams of utilising a low voltage heating element in the cylinder in place of the 240v one; and using electric solar panels without an inverter to heat water as a 'thermal battery'. Anyway: I did some finger in the air engineering on it and could NOT make the numbers work unless someone donated me a load of modern solar cells and a cheeky wink.
What is a FAR better solution (much faster ROI) in MY situation is installing insulation and mush more modern glazing as part of my renovation. This in itself is fraught with issues as I will be doing much of the work myself. That said; my house is also approx 100 years old and has solid walls. I.E. the ROI for insulation is much higher(sooner) for me than many others out there.
I would also consider myself something of an environmentalist (raised a flower child hippy, that got an engineering degree) and wouldn't even mind paying a little extra to reduce my family's carbon footprint. But there are better things to spend money on: quality of life to ensure my children have the opportunities many don't and therefore the luxury to be able to make choices in their future that impact the environment less. All of which is a very flowery way of saying: I think wasting less energy and money will pay off in the long run.
I have more or less finished converting a 150yr old barn loft into a 'modern' apartment. New roof, new floor, and a service loft ready for MVHR ducting, and to hide the spray foam.
All heating options were considered, gas was a given until the provider increased the original 1k quote to 3k after 6 months to connect to the grid. There was also issue of losing headroom with underfloor heating versus radiators on walls.
So . .
I invested heavily in insulation - spray foam between rafters in loft, 7" of kingspan in floor joists and apx 2" of insulated plaster straight onto the stone outer walls. Pretty airtight, and maximises thermal mass. Still no actual heating installation apart from shower fan. Oil filled electric rads - 1 always on low over winter keeps building fabric warm, top up as need, if working from home, still trying to decide.
I did the same with my 110 year old terrace house. New windows (double glazed with argon gas) and new exterior doors. I built stud walls against the party walls and insulated those too. New loft insulation, added insulation to all other stud walls - all insulation is rockwool acoustic. I filled every gap I could find with expanding foam. I had a combi boiler fitted to replace oil burner and later replaced all heating pipes and radiators. The result was less pipework and rads that suited the room sizes better. Most years my gas bill has been around £250 per year for all heating, water and cooking. My first winter the oil heating did not work and I was spending £25 per week to heat one room with an electric heater!
I've just bought a property in the country that has a clapped out oil fuel boiler. Like you I was skeptical about heat pumps because of all the negative reviews I'd heard. But after quite a lot of research on the subject, I now believe if the system is designed specifically for each situation, and correctly installed, heat pumps will work either at a comparable cost to gas, or cheaper. Plus you maybe able to help run the system with solar panels.
Disagree with the comments regarding the ashp. Designed and installed correctly they are more efficient than gas. The reason you over size the radiators is because the heat output is not at 70c like a gas boiler instead lower flow temps but still putting the same level of heat to heat your home. The systems are designed to provide full heat down to -15c and for this reason you purposely oversize them for the worst case scenario. Your other option is air to air which allows you to have cooling in the summer. The bad sides of this are people ripping homeowners off and not understanding what they are installing and then homeowners expecting instant heat and turning it off in between timings. If you also have access to mains gas gas then this is preferable anyway as gas is cheaper (currently) than electric but prices are going up for us all. I've got an air to air system at home (I live in west Yorkshire) we live near a city and there is lots of traffic noise. We also have a combi boiler (3 years old Ideal Vogue C32 which is 90 efficient). The air con is the best in summer and we use it to circulate clean fresh air. I've just done the number crunching based on the new prices following our energy supplier going bust the company we are moving to our tariff is going to double. If the temperature is above 0c then it will be cheaper to run the air con in heating. After that efficiency starts to drop off and gas takes over based on the price per unit of energy right now. Sized correctly and in the right house (no access to mains gas) a air source unit is the way to go over other forms of electric heating.
23 minutes spray foam insulation. We just had vaguely similar thing with our GRP flat roofs - the online insurance questionnaires don't have them in the roof type pick list. Would have had to pay extra to specialist insurer. Went back to a company we used in past and spoke to a real person who could think - she gave lower quote than reason we had left them. A lot of very lazy, simplistic, non-thinking assessment systems in this country
Great sensible approach heat pumps good in new builds, insulation is the key with low temperatures in existing property it’s a problem
and the costs prohibitive .
I was recommended the only way I could heat my house (large detached victorian property, solid walls, etc) with an ASHP was to have a hybrid oil model, the quote (before RHI repayments) along with some other plumbing works I wanted was £24k, .. £1k of that was just radiators.
Also, "in the winter it will almost certainly be running entirely off of oil", it couldn't do both at the same time. I asked for a quote for a new external oil boiler with the same plumbing works above minus radiators (they were only needed just for RHI) and it came in under £9k.
I think max RHI repayments was £10k repaid over numerous years. The maths just didn't work out sadly. So oil boiler it is.
@@TheFarmingEngineerUK Only a month or so ago. It was a large vicarage that was knocked through into the neighbouring house to make one big very cold one. The incoming boiler (26kwh) supports bio-fuel although that still appears to be in trials.
Can you imagine how much heating using a heat pump will cost people now. Renewable heat incentive ended or ending this month for new installations and the eye watering cost of electricity. Yet they still try and convince people to swap.
Wood burning stoves - problem is not the carbon footprint, it's the microscopic soot particles that, as with older diesel cars, is vastly more dangerous than envisaged a few years ago. We were going to install one in our 1930s semi in London and now glad we didn't.
We did make same decision about new combi gas boiler this year - incredibly efficient and long warranty. Also upgraded a couple of radiators. Very good decision. Will put electric fake wood burner in remaining fireplace for quick heat when don't need radiators on. But rads on low permanently is better than on and off because don't have to warm house from zero every time they come on. Two showers and one bath - powerful hot water in all. Cost same as yours. Also massively upgraded insulation, like you
The biggest thing that annoys me when it comes to climate change discussions, is that it isn't really us, it's big industries causing all the damage. That said, I don't think people should own cars unless essential. But that's mostly down to there being too many cars.
Er, the big industries are making your products?
do you have an essential car?
@@andyharpist2938 I bet he does. Yet thinks ours are inessential.
I feel the main issue with the comparisons, is they are argued based on efficiency where ASHP absolutely wins. But in the UK, mains gas is so cheap it's practically free whereas electricity is quite expensive. (It's about 1000%(10x) in price between the 2 per KwH)
Obviously Gas prices are set to skyrocket over the next few years, but I doubt electricity will sit around.
Also, The amount of issues I've had with British Gas and Scottish Power, I don't think E.On are any worse of the big 6.
British Gas (South Africa staff) and Scottish and Southern (SSE)... totally useless.
EON. Oh dear - just signed up to a fixed energy deal with them for the next year. Will see how that goes!
Used EON and EDF in the past 10 years no issue other than call centers etc
I've generally had no problems with EON and were with them for some time, I had more issues with British Gas customer service. But I guess everyone will have different experiences
A wonderful video. The first I've understood. Thanks.
10:26 Excuse me but what? First of all, you dont have to dig up all your garden. You drill a hole (bore well) and put the pipes there. That takes about two square meters of space. No large scale digging or big mess. Secondly, what makes you think the heat differential isn't enough. They work here in Finland in -25'C just fine so they woud work in your -8'C as well. Same thing with the air source heat pumps. I installed air source heat pump back in 2007 and it has been heating my 120m2 house since without any problems. We have had several -30'C time periods also and the pump still have worked ok. Of course at those extremely low temperatures it does consume same amount electricity as direct electric heater. Maybe your source of information isn't very good or something....
I’m thinking of going the GSHP route and for me bore holes is the only route but boy are the holes expensive I’m being quoted £14k for three 100 metre holes. So if anyone knows a cheaper way of getting bore holes in SY11 UK happy to hear about it.
I'm 2-3km south of Andy and there are (coal) pit workings underneath us. In the maps I can find online, as of 1892 there were no pits where he is ... but for some reason /sarcasm installers around here want to do a (chargeable) test bore before quoting.
@@chrisbenson1217 Often that is down to effecting the local water table in the local area, we had several schools down south that ended up with carpet GSHP due to the proximity of the local water table to the surface. Andy backs onto a river so I expect the water table around there is quite high and environmental health have to get involved when in that situation for permissions.
We have an old Victorian stone-built detached house, for which we had a new heating system installed 5 years ago. Our heating was formerly via a gas boiler housed in a Rayburn cooker, which was designed to operate both for cooking and central heating. It was costing us a fortune and was not heating the house adequately. We eventually decided on a hybrid system, which consists of a 16kw Air Source Heat Pump and a 32kw Gas Boiler. The AS Heat Pump takes care of heating when the outside temp is above 5c, then the gas boiler takes over at lower temperatures. The gas boiler heats the water, but we also have a 4kw solar array which can power the heat pump in the right weather conditions, but which also heats the water (300l insulated tank) via a solar i-boost system which automatically diverts spare solar electricity to heat the water. Even in the Winter, the heat pump is normally carrying out heating duties, as more often than not, the temp is above 5c. We also have a wood burner in one room (living room). In our experience, the heat pump has been superb, it has saved us a lot of money in energy costs and also did not cost any more to install than a 'gas only' system would have, because we benefited from a reduced VAT rate on the installation, due to it being a renewable heat source. We have underfloor heating in our cellars and oversized (triple) radiators everywhere else in the house, so we can run the heat pump at a low water temp (45c). You don't need wide bore piping (as you mis-leadingly have stated in this video), our existing 15mm copper piping has been retained throughout, except for the stretch between the heat pump which is outside and our gas boiler on the inside. The triple radiators were not expensive to install. The heat pump will operate down to approx -15c, but gets less efficient the colder the outside temp is, which is why we choose to switch over to gas at 5c or below. Also, the heat pump is not excessively noisy, you would struggle to hear it outside if you stand more than a few yards away, so your comments about 200 houses running this on a housing estate makes no common sense. Also, points made about servicing are misleading - AS Heat Pumps don't require servicing if installed correctly and filled with the correct Glycol solution. Our annual service is for the gas boiler, not the AS Heat Pump, which has an expected 25 year life span.
I've been agonising over what system to use in my new build for months, I had a quote of 16K for an ASHP setup and I was pretty happy with it. I work in live events and I had a gig cancelled just as I was about to order thanks to COVID this kept happening so I kept delaying waiting for work to start again. Since this didn't happen there came a point where I had to dismiss ASHP and look at other options so I finally decided on a 100L water heater (£185) for hot water and a 19KW 3 phase electric boiler (£1400). I'm running 200sqm's of wet UFH and 5 rads (sized for a ASHP system) the electric boiler will heat water easily to my required 45 degrees which is almost its lowest setting. I don't expect my electricity bills to be unusually high but even if they are a little higher than normal I'm much happier not laying out the extra 14.5K for the ASHP which in my case when I can would be better suited channeled into solar and far more useful.
Very understandable choices. However do not put in microbore piping to the radiators but 15 mm. You can always swap a radiator (not that expensive) but it is a hassle to change underfloor piping. Though (we have just done it in an old 1865 farmhouse) not actually as bad as we had feared. We did not need to redecorate at all.
Great video, I was suspicious about the heat pumps already but found this video very informative.
Good video. The case for ASHP systems falls apart when you look at running costs. At best you will get 3Kw of heat from 1Kw of electricity via an ASHP. When temperatures drop towards zero you'll struggle to get 1.5kw. A good gas boiler is over 90% efficient. Even today with scary increases in gas prices electricity remains more than 5 times the price of gas. Do the maths, generating 1kw of heat from an ASHP costs way more than 1Kw from a gas boiler.
......and thats before you get to installation costs, the need for huge radiators and the noise issues etc.
The RHI grants for ASHPs are ( in my opinion) also a racket. You can only get it if you have the system installed by a certified installer. It's wide open to abuse because all the installer has to do is sell the system through finance which effectively gets funded by the RHI payments. The RHI money is just disappearing into installers pockets, its a pointless exercise.
False claims, sorry to say. Most of the winter you actually get 5 kWh of heat out of 1 kWh of power. I have been running them myself. Only when it is -10 it falls to numbers like that, 1 on 3.
My current new house is running mostly 1 on 6 with this weather.
And so it is not a wild claim that heat pumps are 500% efficient, as it is just transporting heat. Whereas a combi boiler only makes 9kWh out of 10kWh in a cubic meter of gas. So heat pumps are in fact more efficient to run even when the power comes from a gas power plant.
Our previous well insulated row house only used 220kWh of power for heating over a year!
Remember that heat pumps are used in Scandinavia, our weahter is easy compared to that.
In Scandi the heat pump runs in drier weather so does not need to defrost frequently in icy conditions.
Their electricity is truly green and cheap, ours is neither.
Regarding the heat pump installation companies making lots of money- they waste much of their time chasing customers who, when they work out the pitfalls, never go ahead. Frankly it is a mugs game selling heat pumps, we have stopped offering the due to Government distortion in the market.
Even at the worst case scenario you cite, which isn't in accordance to reality, how do you reckon 90% efficiency is better than 150% ?
@@BTW... Because electricity costs 5 times as much as gas. Simple maths to work out the cost of generating 1Kw of heat in your home.
I find myself agreeing with a huge number of your comments, it is a shame that politicians are worried about their image instead of reality.
We are in the process of having CH installed, Previously we had an immersion heater and gas fires in the 2 downstairs rooms. Brought up in the old fashioned way we lived with no heating in the summer. Only old age and a free grant is making us use this fixing of CH.I just hope its worth it in the end,
Djesus. We are never decarbonising at this rate. I don't blame you for going down this route, but this is doing quite a bit of harm. Not that this is the place to discuss it. It's just a bit sad we're shafting our kids.
Uhm, Norway here, regular temps down into the -20's, and although the condenser is less efficient it heats my 1920's house (with no extra insulation installed) just fine. Why are you getting just crap condensers that can't even handle -8?!
A very timely find, just doing the same thing, 1930 terrace in need of modernising with no heating but has gas supply. Was thinking going all electric but actually the numbers don’t stack up and this has helped me make come to the same conclusion!
They're crap, that's why. Low heat output and a huge eye-sore on the back of your house.
Very interesting, Andy. I have foam loft insulation and a combi boiler so you have set my mind at rest. Very few people can sit and chat with no notes and pass on technical information in a way that even I can understand it 🌞
"central heating" will eventually be an insulated shed in the front room where we will huddle during the winter.
They'll never stop me using the log burner I'm going to install. Sod them.
@@MarcusT86 the smoke coming out of the chimney will be a dead giveaway and then armed police will turn up on e-scooters and rip your stove out.
@@MarcusT86My next door neighbour and I still have coal fires and if these Ecomaniacs tell us to get rid of them, we'll chase the buggers with our iron pokers! Enjoy your log burner. It's an investment for your home. I'll never block my fire up and it kept me warm when my central heating packed in twice in a week at the start of the year.
@@lapisredux I’ll just have ducting directing the smoke to an underground soak-away, nay SMOKE-AWAY.
@@danielagiovanazzi2055 thank you Daniela. Autumn nights are going to be lovely indeed, and snowy nights… oh my, coziness off the charts. Our ancestors were starting fires for warmth for literally over a million years, and I’m not stopping now over some authoritarians.
We have recently fitted a Worcester combi to replace a 15 year old combi, the only reason being that before we shuffle off, the old one would require replacing, and it may be, by then, a mandatory heat pump job. So at a cost of just over £2K we hope to be future proof. The higher efficiency might see an associated saving, but only time will tell
In addition to the downsides you've highlighted of heat pumps and efficiency there is also the footprint of the storage cylinder. We've been in this house a long time, and had the original cylinder taken out years ago, and the resultant change to the shape of the room, losing that 3' square cupboard was dramatic. Whether there is a space for a cylinder and the associated gubbins is moot. We're just down the road from you, on Teesside, so the weather is much the same, minus the smog of course
Extremely glad you covered this topic. Was considering installing an ASHP which would have required substantial works on my behalf to replace gas pipes that were too narrow. Will update to a newer combi and larger radiators instead. Thank you.
Over here in Ireland the council are fitting air source heat pumps in every house new and old pulling out oil boilers and fireplaces, the big reset i say we're in for a few rough winters
Leaving aside the technicalities of installation, electricity costs six times as much per kWh than gas does. If a heat pump system is 200% efficient (the best you'll get in the coldest weather, when you use it the most) that means it will cost three times as much to run as a gas powered system.
If the price of gas rises (as it will) the cost of electricity will rise in step with it. So this won't change significantly.
My view is that we shall have to install a huge excess of renewable power sources, which will be needed to cover periods of low supply, high demand. So there will be massive oversupply all the rest of the time. So making green hydrogen will be the obvious answer.
If the gas mains were supplying hydrogen, the next problem would be capacity. You need a much bigger volume of hydrogen for the same amount of energy.
Might as well just use electric directly for heating if you have massive oversupply. Hydrogen is really inefficient to make. But maybe something else like ammonia would be better.
I agree with your analysis but In the long run, with more solar and wind generation, and gas no longer an option, electricity will become much cheaper than hydrogen, because hydrogen will be needed to produce electricity only a very small amount of the time. Most of the time, solar and wind will produce electricity very cheaply, as it is doing already. Nuclear electricity is also available 24/7, and it's cheaper than gas already. Hydrogen will be more expensive than Gas because it's made from electricity, with 15-30% conversion and compression losses, so it's very inefficient as a fuel, but it's still useful as a seasonal buffer because it can be stored in large quantities very cheaply. We can't assume that more renewables will produce ever cheaper electricity to produce cheap hydrogen. In reality, the price of renewable electricity cannot continue to decline much more, because the cost of building and maintaining wind and solar farms must be paid for, otherwise no one will build them.
We're in the Hudson Valley NY where winter temps go down to 10F in February and summer temps go into the 90's F. My neighbors have had geothermal for 3 years and kept warm and cool no problems. We went from an ASHP and an oil furnace combination to geothermal this year. The ASHP kept us warm down to 30F then the oil furnace kicked in saving many gallons of oil. The ASHP worked with no problems during the time we had it. We have vertical loops for the geothermal so it doesn't require a lot of land although we do have 20 acres. Unfortunately the land is all in one direction and our neighbors are very close. So far the geothermal is working fantastically! After all the credits and rebates the system cost $22,000 USD.
I've delt with air source heat pumps here in the Northeastern Seaboard of the US, the view on them is they work well enough for cooling in the warmer months, but you really need a secondary heat source for colder snaps during the Winter.
Good vid. Issues well explained, without theatrics.
Oh boy you’re going to get the internet trolls chiming in with differing points of view of this one Andy. I did feel the first half of your video was unbalanced against ASHP with side comments that “they won’t work properly”, but then when you got into the ramble it was a much more balanced position, and I absolutely agree with you that there are pro’s and con’s and no single right answer for everyone - just the first half you come over as very biased.
My situation, earlier this year I’ve paid for and had installed an ASHP. The pump does make a noise when its operating but its not massively noisy as you suggest, its more of a background hum, so don’t necessarily agree with the comments about excessive noise in residential areas - kids playing and lawnmowers are much more noisy.
So why did I buy an ASHP. We’re in a village with no mains gas and so previously had to use heating oil. The oil tank reached end of life, started leaking, so had to do something to replace it. The tank was in the back garden but the house had been extended both sides so to get a new one in we’d have had to hire a crane, plus there is all the government noise about oil and gas heating being phased out. The ASHP cost just over £11k but we will get almost all that back via the RHI government grant, meaning it cost about the same as a new tank, no crane hire cost, and I felt it was a better long term solution.
You absolutely need to find a proper company to design and install it (and getting comparative quotes proved difficult for me). Radiators need to be upgraded, but that and a new super-insulated hot water tank was all in the price. You have to have lots of loft insulation (I had to put more down) and cavity wall insulation to get the energy rating to receive the grant. The grant application was a pain, they required lots and lots of evidence, but once I gave it all, the money started coming through every quarter.
Running costs are very similar to the price of oil, and longer term I expect as gas and oil prices go up, it’ll be slightly better. So far its worked perfectly, no issues at all, plenty of hot water and a warm house. One thing to consider is that the hot water cylinder and equipment needs to be physically near to the ASHP - this meant a load of plant going in our utility room. We now have a empty airing cupboard though!
In my circumstances yes I probably would buy an ASHP again. If I had the choice of gas I would find it a much harder decision to make.
Final comment, as a country we need different thinking about how we heat our homes. For example, rather than every home having its own individual heating source, move towards larger more efficient boilers for whole streets/blocks of flats. Ground source heat pumps and large ASHP’s can make more sense under those circumstances
Great comments - heartily endorse everything you say. We have had a very similar experience with ditching oil for ASHP with the key being insulation and air-tightness with a mechanical ventilation system.
+1 from me as well. We moved to an ASHP with the RHI grant from on old microbore LPG system. First we wanted to remove the micro bore radiator pipes, as they were buried in the walls and secondly we wanted to move off LPG and mains gas wasn't available. We live in Wales and often go down to -7c. The ASHP isn't as efficient at that temp but it keeps our 80's bungalow at 21c without issue. As with most things in life, people need to look at their specific situation and not be influenced by general statements that are either 100% positive or negative.
Completely agree with the Worcester bosch choice for 2021. Very efficient and quiet and the smart capabilities are excellent. Other technologies are relatively in their infancy and thanks for another great video. 🙂👍
Great video and excellent discussion about heat pumps and the way the UK government are trying to force us down this route. It will almost definitely end in an about turn in a few years time. I had the exact same boiler system installed in my property in January 20 to replace a 20 year old boiler and its amazing. It’s reduced my gas bill significantly and of course I now longer need a large hot water tank in my airing cupboard or a header tank in the attic. I have solar and a battery and have been looking at different technologies and recently purchased an infra-red panel for my garden office. I have been truly impressed with this, it is efficient, it heats the thermal mass instead of the air and is thermostatically controlled. If I did need to change my heating system I would certainly look at these for my main property. They can be installed on walls, ceilings or freestanding and can be made to look like a mirror or even a picture. There are loads of different technologies out there and often the ones pushed by the government and reported in the press are not the ones worth looking at.
Very well presented - unbiased and to the point.
You are on my wave length.
Excellent video - I think the main point is not what heat source you use but just 3 words - Insulation! Insulation! Insulation! We did a newbuild about 5 years ago and after being fed up of a very stinky and disgusting oil boiler for the previous 12 years we made absolutely sure we insulated the new place to an almost Passivhaus standard and installed an ASHP for the heat source (no gas main in our area) and underfloor heating for downstairs only. This has worked really well and the electricity bill is around £1,200-£1,300 per annum keeping the house at a constant 22 degrees in the winter with no cold spots and plentiful hot water. I know you have insulated your project to a high standard this has to be the most important thing. No matter what heat source you use it is incumbent on all of us not to waste the heat we produce but to keep it in the house rather than leaking it into the atmosphere. I would be really interested to know if you are/will be using a Mechanical Ventilation Heat Recovery system to ventilate the house (vital) whilst keeping heat in?
I worry about the information out there about how burning hydrogen is considered environmental friendly because when burned with pure oxygen it produces water. But a hydrogen gas boiler will burn with air and product nitrogen oxides not something we want to add any more to our towns and cities. Certainly hydrogen in a fuel cell is doable but that produces electronic. The boiler industry (pushed by Worcester Bosch) is betting on hydrogen to keep boilers alive after the ban. They hope to use the current gas network but hydrogen is much lighter than natural gas so its very difficult to get it to your home without pumping it not to mention the production of hydrogen is currently far from green. Can you imagine the chaos of switching over from natural has to hydrogen to use the current network! Given the boiler ban will happen soon (2025) I believe the boiler we had installed this year will be the last we can have.
I suppose you use hyro electric to make the hydrogen
@@highpath4776 Hydrogen from electrolysis is clean but it’s an incredibly inefficient process so you need masses of input energy. We would have to go heavy on nuclear power to make its work and it’s to the scale that it would be 2-3 times what’s needed to power all homes with ASHP. Hydrogen will have its place in ships and planes but for homes investing in electricity would be the way.
The calorific value of hydrogen being much higher than LPG which is higher than gas means less fuel will be burnt overall effectively lowering Nitrogen Oxide output. The boiler ban in 2025 is also only on new build houses not on current properties and we went through much the same issue swapping from Towns Gas to Natural Gas on the same network. It is also not just Worcester Bosch pushing for Hydrogen, it's all the manufacturers and the gas transporters themselves (SGN etc) considering the forced upgrade of the gas mains mandated by the government, they obviously want to earn their investment back as the government won't be covering their losses otherwise.
Any it would be switched over in stages across the network like Towns to Natural was previously and any boilers running on the mix or pure hydrogen will likely need upgrading with UV sensors for flame supervision safety devices as the current industry safety device doesn't work in the same way.
What a sensible person you are….
Thanks, I watched this from start to finish and really enjoyed it. Small thing, but I was wondering if you need a 36kw boiler for this property? The central heating would never need anything like that, and as you mentioned, the hot water output is limited to 24kw. So surely 24kw would be plenty for everything and this would be more efficient and less stress on the boiler?
If you use a 24 kw combi boiler your hot water output at the taps would be reduced , this is why we fit larger output combi boilers to overcome this problem , personally I would have fitted a megaflo and small 20 kw heat only system and that would have been more than enough for constant hot water at a decent pressure and would be a lot cheaper to run long term....👍
And there is a pump - it is inside the casing.
Fair point, but it does future-proof the system should they build an extension, loft conversion, etc.
@@thenullco with combi's it's almost always the hot water demand that drives the output of the boiler, space heating is a lower demand, in small properties this can mean the boiler is mismatched and has to cycle a lot.
Got an air source heat pump it lasted 6 years and heat exchanger has lost gas 2 times god knows how much pollution I've done now great video I'm back on oil now
Basic common sense thank you for posting. I particularly liked the comment about many people do not know how to use a thermostat. Sounds extreme but so true. I have a modern combi system and four standalone heat pumps. When only moderately cold e.g. 7 degrees C I run just the heat pumps only. Any colder then HP's become increasingly not cost effective to so I switch on the gas boiler and run both at the same time as a hybrid do to speak. In really cold periods statistically less than 30 days per year in my part of the world i use 100% gas. Where the heat pumps work really well is summer time air conditioning and even then its situation specific as I have a lot of glass in my property. My neighbours with properties of different construction from mine do not need air con. The lesson to be learned is do your research first on HP's and work out for yourself if suitable. Absolutely do not blindly follow government advice.
We have reverse cycle air conditioning as it gets pretty warm in summer and heat is needed in winter. (Outer Sydney Aus) Just had a new unit fitted today! Our old LG system gave up the ghost a month back (18 yrs old) The new Daikin Cora unit is far more efficient than our old one. We have found over the years that 7.1 kw is good enough for our needs. In winter, we tend to use a wood fire. Finding good well seasoned wood isn’t a problem. It’s also pretty efficient. March to September has cost us approximately £100 for wood. Some wood I can just collect off the ground in the local bush. The Aircon only used occasionally when the fire has been allowed to go out. Now considering installing a Tesla Power Wall due to power outages during storms. We have lost all electrical power twice this year. Once for 4 days and again for 2. Thank goodness for a gas fired BBQ and a 2000 w generator!
"Just whenen we hit the point of efficiency, they try to move people away from it "
Judging by the number of people that got on board, I'd say people are smart enough to not fall for it.
I wish I had these explained when I last had my boiler changed.
set your boiler flow temperature to 50 degrees. see if that gets your house hot enough. that's a very basic test to see if heat pump could work for you.
For all the heat pumps that fail - it’s basically an install / design fault. If a room currently needs say a 1kw heater to warm it using a boiler - you will still need a 1 kw heat source in that room but supplied with your heat pump so you won’t be any colder/warmer. All the pipe sizes need to be correct and you’ll need to achieve a Cop rating as high above 4 you can get just to match the costs of using a gas boiler .
Andy, thanks, a very interesting and thoughtful piece. We are seniors, just moved into a 2003 build house (in the UK) and are staggered to find it did not have cavity wall insulation (it now has). Our last experience with a combi boiler was in 1989-97 and things have moved on lots. Since 2007 we have had a pressurised tank system and we find it is fine. This summer, our first in this house, we have had the water heating for 90 minutes from 0730 daily and it produces water for showers in the morning and hot water the rest of the day whenever we need it and the gas consumption has been 38 units (therms) over 13 weeks, say 3 therms per week. We have the usual 400mm loft insulation but whether we have insulated floor - who knows, we have no paperwork. Like you, we think GSHP and ASHPs are pie in the sky, unaffordable for most people. Thanks again, great content.
I’m not sure how you checked - our 2003 home has wall insulation - it’s attached to the interior wall,leaving a small cavity so water doesn’t permeate. Interior walls are thermo bricks and the floor is insulated. This was a standard construction by a large house builder at the time.
When we bought this house, a dormer bungalow three years ago, the oil boiler was from 1970. Gas wasn’t an option, so we went with a new, very efficient oil boiler and an air source heat pump. We couldn’t find a certified installer so any grants were not possible The oil heats the house quickly in a cold morning, then we switch over to the heat pump. Running costs, heap pump 20p per hour - oil £250 per year. The ASHP usually turns off at 20C in the open plan living area, radiators are at 35C. The ASHP is very quiet except in temperatures below freezing when it work much harder. The dual system works very well for us as long as we are aware of hoe we are using it. No problems or complaints.
VERY GOOD POINT !!! Do NOT throw out good existing products (like a diesel car) to get a newer (hipper, more modern) thing. I own a 65 year old motorcycle. I've had it for 40 years and now they tell me I can not drive it in some city centers? !!
Hey Andy Mac!
More interesting content. Mrs. Mac's palace is coming along nicely. I suspect your ongoing efforts will keep you in her good graces for some time to come. Both of ya keep doin' you! Stay healthy, keep playing.
I'm in the West Midlands and work at home most of the time. It's a 4 bed detached and I use one of the bedrooms as an office. There are a number of servers in here in a rack which kick off a lot of heat. I've replaced the double glazing (good stuff) this year and now I'm now doing a lot of audio recordings for work. To keep the noise down I have to close the windows because I need to keep the noise down to a minimum and I have to kill some of the servers but with latent heat it's distractingly hot in here. So I decided to go for air conditioning for my office.
I didn't realise that newer systems are heat pumps and can heat as well as cool - That for me is an unexpected bonus - how good they are for heating will be proven over time. I did a little research on air to air systems and so decided to have one in my office, one in the living room and one in the main bedroom.
I have an old combi boiler which does need to be replaced and a new gas fire in the lounge.
I was absolutely not going to ditch gas for heating and rely on heat pumps alone. That would be stupid. At lower temperatures they become less efficient. The grants seem to be based on ditching gas, so no. With the rocketing prices of fuel the heat pumps may well be worth while for heating - I'm not in a position yet to judge that.
Regarding diesel - I've always been an advocate of petrol over diesel and do not like driving an oil burner. I guess my concerns have been proven over time. I like the idea of having an electric car, but range for me is an issue and just how will the grid cope with everyone charging their cars overnight if everyone decided to go for one? Lack of infrastructure IMO. Great idea but no joined-up thinking on implementation.
Ikea......just no.
I live in a house in the uk with an air source heat pump system, but instead of radiators it is connected to 3 fan coil units, two wall mounted ones on the ground floor and a single unit concealed in the loft feeding air through ducts to the upstairs rooms, plus it’s connected to the water tank too and heats the water too - works brilliantly, House is cosy and warm in winter (plus it cools in summer) - my installer said “they work great until you try to connect them to a water filled central Heating system” - guess I was lucky I was replacing storage heaters and didn’t have an existing radiator system