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Kaveh | Infantilization of Feminine Characters [Genshin Impact Character Analysis]
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- Опубликовано: 8 июл 2024
- Kaveh is my least favorite of the Sumeru case, but even I can acknowledge that the way he is sometimes represented is untrue to his character.
Female characters or any character that shows feminine traits tend to get treated as less than their more masculine counter parts because "misogyny" is still a thing and ironically enough or sadly enough actually a lot of these are by women themselves. In this video I will be talking about the Infantilization or dumbing down of characters like Kaveh.
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#kaveh #characteranalysis
This coming out on his birthday is pretty convenient, Happy Birthday Kaveh
idk if youve done this yet but wouldnt it be interesting to compare thoma and ayato with alhaitham and kaveh in terms of dynamics and why the latter gets so misrepresented than the other
Nahida flat out said, and I quote, "He has an almost-perfect grasp of what it truly means for Sumeru to be a Nation of Wisdom". The Archon of Wisdom said that about Kaveh. 'Nuff said.
Kaveh being mischaracterised as ‘dumb’ is also quite interesting considering he somewhat represents the arts in sumeru, a nation where the ruling sages had dismissed the arts as unnecessary. Similarly, we often see people, especially STEM men or older folk, imply artists are just ‘too dumb for sciences’ or assume that artists can’t also be strong in other fields as well. Since art is linked with femininity it’s certainly curious if this perception of art arose because of it?
psa: a lot of the mischaracterisation might partially be bc many of kaveh’s own lore/character is locked behind the interdarshan championship event + his hangout which is quite unfortunate
Absolutely agree about STEM men, academic superiority, and business people dismissing the value of empathy and arts. I imagine a scientist without any understanding of humanity and empathy ending the world or creating atrocity. Other fields of study need to be valued and appreciated as well. I believe misogyny is linked since certain types of work are more valued than “feminine” work. There’s already an underrepresentation of women in STEM compared to an overrepresentation of women in fields such as teaching and nursing
@@angelinatran4930 so true a scientist without humanity is perfectly exemplified by the sages’ hubris in creating a new god and in real life by people advancing AI to extreme degrees without a care for the professions that would become threatened in the future
I do understand that Kaveh gives impression of an artist, but architecture is very much an engineering field. The building doesn't have to just look pretty - it also needs to be tough and comfortable to live in.
@@kotarouinugami1745 true, which is why I mentioned towards the end how people sometimes assume someone can’t be good at both art and stem: particularly we see many of kaveh’s clients sacrifice aesthetics for functionality. Because he’s an engineer it’s also even more dumb when the fandom acts like he’s stupid and can’t do maths like . come on😭
Umm. Kaveh being dumb isn't wrong in a sense. He's people smart but he's so easy to fool and Manipulate.
don’t forgot that in cyno story quest, kaveh really have that camera memory type? he can remember object and draw it perfectly really show that he’s THAT GENIUS genius.. but still he’s very hardworking artist and even nahida approve that through her dialogue in her character dialogue about kaveh, fully respect him and any artists❤❤
YESSS i was so surprised when this guy just started draeing from his imagination, im an artist and i literally cannot imagine doing that 😭😭
photographic memory i think !
@@TakitoRi_ yep strong photographic memory
From an art kid who ended up studying STEM, I empathize with Kaveh a lot with his struggle to be taken seriously. My hot take is that Alhaitham’s attitude ticked off my hate for academic superiority and I thought kaveh deserved better. I like the ship because I see potential for development, but Alhaitham being mean to Kaveh for having empathy (and everyone else infantilizing him) reminds me of the devaluing of anything that isn’t Big Tech Money. You see it a lot with upper STEM and business. There are people who believe art and emotions aren’t valuable or intellectual, and it’s even worse when paired with misogyny. Kaveh deserves more respect from the characters around him and from the people who fetishize him.
I agree. And something else people often misunderstand is Alhaitham "being mean".. He's "mean" to everyone, he's blunt and knows his deal, so he comes off as arrogant, I get that a lot too (accidental - or not- autistic representation), but he doesn't condemn Kaveh for having emotions, he does because Kaveh is too nice for his own good and he knows it.
He started this "self flagellating path of a people pleaser" because he blames himself for stuff he has no control over.
Alhaitham can't understand that and has tried to make him stop, but that's not an easy fix, there's a LOT to unload, plus Kaveh is both smart and very stubborn, he's aware of his wrongs, but keeps digging his own grave... Which is why they parted ways.
Well that was long..
But yeah. Just wanted to clarify that, because people like Alhaitham (like me, except I'm not smart nor cool lol) are often misunderstood, and I'm getting tired of it.
Edit:
I forgot to mention a very important aspect of their dynamic.
Kaveh IS self-sabotaging, but he's also very proud and stubborn, Alhaitham "being mean" challenges him, it pushes him to defend himself with all he has. When Alhaitham pokes him, Kaveh pokes him back, or even pokes him first.
This can only happen with Alhaitham because they know each other so well, as it's shown in more than one occasion that when Kaveh really is pushed in a corner, Alhaitham takes a step back.
He cares about him and tries to help him, but he doesn't think of Kaveh as someone who needs to be babied, he sees him as the extrimly smart and incredibly competent adult that he is, so he tries to push him out of the "nest of thorns" he made for himself.
Are there more gentle ways to do it? Probably. But Alhaitham is a person too. He's not Kaveh's therapist nor his parent.
The way Mihoyo constructed their dynamic is just perfect in my opinion, and way healthier than "fans" make it out to be. They are some of the most human characters in genshin and I love them for that.
Imo It's kinda a bit of a trope , fiction inspired by real life , an intellectual who subconsciously bases everything on logic looking down on other who doesn't abide by the same principle and have a hard time getting along or truly understand normal people or artistic type person who's more in touch with emotional side and not weight everything on logic .
Alhaitham’s bluntness and rude attitude is out of concern for Kaveh, and kaveh’s dramatics are due to his trauma of being left alone, as well as his belief that he deserves any bad thing that happens to him. Kaveh’s selflessness is self sacrificial to the point of giving away every piece of himself at the cost of his own well-being. Alhaitham knows this, and constantly tries to reel kaveh in, alhaitham is constantly trying to save Kaveh from himself.
Every time Kaveh and alhaitham argue, any time alhaitham critises kaveh, he says that out of concern, he wants Kaveh to stop doing those things because it worries him. Alhaitham worries that Kaveh will end up being his own downfall
Kaveh and alhaitham’s relationship is quite complex in psyche, what we see on surface is not at all the way what they actually think of each other.
Alhaitham comes off as mean to Kaveh because doing otherwise would spook Kaveh. Kaveh feels comfort when he does not feel like he owes anyone.
Alhaitham nags Kaveh about chores and rent because Kaveh would feel like he’s taking advantage of alhaitham. *And alhaitham knows this* . He knows how Kaveh thinks, he knows why Kaveh is the way he is and tries to help Kaveh.
Kaveh rlly needs therapy fr. Alhaitham also knows that he isn’t cut out to help Kaveh emotionally, so he does what he can. Alhaitham houses Kaveh, he reminds Kaveh to budget responsibly, he helps pay for a lot of kaveh’s drinks, meals and furniture. In exchange, Kaveh does the chores and “pays rent” (Kaveh still hasn’t paid him rent yet).
Alhaitham only acts like a bitch cause he KNOWS kaveh would feel guilty living at his house rent free, so he nags and gives him chores to alleviate that guilt and make kaveh mad at him instead of feel guilty. Alhaitham does this to ensure that kaveh would not run away to being homeless AGAIN
I don't feel like Alhaitham is bad on purpose, because it's pretty implied that he has autism, or at least does not understand certain social behaviors.
al haitham isn't looking down on kaveh, people really need to understand that, ESPECIALLY people who like the ship. I personally don't ship it, but I see them as very good friends who are comfortable enough to talk about each other honestly. al haitham has never looked down on kaveh for studying arts or "looking feminine" (in fact I don't think that's a factor he even considers) and kaveh only really takes issue with al haitham for always nudging him to be less self-destructive when helping people. so in fact they're both grown adults who respect each other, but they do not find it easy to work together due to their conflicting personalities
Idk, reading Ao3 fanfics about him, I rarely got the idea that people think he is stupid. (I usually see this happeneing when casuals talkabout him, people who didn't read his character stories)
The other thing that annoys me very much regarding Kaveh is that a lots of times they make Kaveh more masculine to counterbalance how feminine canonically he is (behaves) I saw people make him some kind of construction worker in fics (this is very popular) who builds buildings with his own hands (which is not true canonically. He gets bouts of dizziness, and lethargy if he stays out of the sun' When the sun is out voiceline', and just like Tighnari, he can't tolerate the heat either, he phisically incapable of build any building in Sumeru's climate) or they make him much stronger than Alhaitham (again to counterbalance how feminine KAveh is)
Which is again, goes against canon. Kaveh is literally a catalyst user (uses Mehrak as a catalyst canonically) and he even struggles to run even a few meters (Parade of Providence event multiple times, his CN climbing sounds he make; he struggles with phsical activity)
While Kaveh is strong for a simple human (accodring to Wiki visions grant enchanced strenghts too to it's wielders) he is not in a good phisical condition, and he is the weakest member of his friend group. (Alhaitham pretty much expected that he will be the last during the phisical parts of the Parade of Providence competition- 'And here's Kaveh bringing up the rear" LOL)
This just goes to show how big the fanbase is, while I don´t fanfiction of him most of other fan made content I see of him don´t exactly paint him in a fair way which is why I made the video. It is interesting to see the perspective of someone who is on the opposite side. Yeah the need to make him overly masculine is no better than belittling him for being feminine.
At least from what I saw of him (I don't remember THAT much of Parade of Providence), I would sooner call him "silly" than stupid. And by silly it's more of an endearing quality, of how much he cares about others and puts the comfort of others before himself, how he shares his food and water with the Fennec-lile creatures, even though he really shouldn't.
@@pepita2437 that's so weird I can't even imagine it.. Guess "fanartiats" and "fanwriters" have different tastes.. At least the ones you mentioned are just mischaracterizing and mysoginistic, the other side often gets from mysoginistic to fetish to p3dophilia... How you get to THAT from an adult man really needs some thinking and stretching, which makes it even more disturbing in my opinion.
I agree with this !! As much as i sort of like kaveh fanarts where he is built a little more stronger its usually not him and kaveh isnt that strong compared to other vision holders QvQ (but sorta strong on his own)
He does build things with his own hands tho, alhaitham did mention that he can hear kaveh clanging away with a hammer at night and it annoys alhaitham.
Kaveh definitely has some upper body strength but it’s not that much, just enough for him to stay fit and wield a hammer effectively.
He uses mehrak not just because he’s weak but because he does not want to risk injuring his hand. His hands are his lifeblood as an artist, see how when he plunges he shakes his fingers.
5:13 YESSS. this is what i'm talking about, if your going so far to push misogynist roles like that, or going as far as to change the whole characters' personality or how they act then your completely rewriting the character as itself making a different kind of kaveh that we don't normally see in genshin! you seriously might as well just start making your own ships if you to go this far.
Alhaithams line about getting bamboozled in a city with free health care was the final nail in his coffin
Finally. Someone who talks about how bullsh# he actually say is.
Do you mean it was the nail in the coffin of Alhaitham or Kaveh?
@@user-vp8nr6xt3f Kaveh.
what?
i like kaveh and his personal conflict, it seems pretty real to me. he's not some child, but because of his problems he's quite there yet, and the game (and sumeru cast) adresses it.
kavetham has cool dynamic and potential, even platonic (i say "even" but that's the important part) BUT i thought fandom's purpose for characters, dynamics and ships is to flesh out them even more. instead it's just... my question to shippers - how can you like a ship and completely mischaracterise it's participants? if you do that then aren't you missing the point? what's the purpose of, say, shipping wars if you just can warp the chemistry and chage it to another pairing's because that's "convenient"? and this is somehow better choice between this and what you have described.
@@herrnarr3577 from what I see around and what I've heard/read from people who do these things, they just have their trope(s) of choice and project it on every character(s) who they find "hot" or whatever they are looking for.. They see existing characters as shells to empty and fill back with whatever they prefere, and they try every excuse not to admit it, not even to themselves apparently.
tbf to the comunity fan ships are something everyone on the internet should learn to keep at a healthy distance from. No one has ever defended such bad takes so ferverntly as fanshippers. Its not just this one ship or this one fandom.
people just take ships so seriously, it unhealthy how far people will go to prove a point. i do like the alhaitiam and kaveh ship to an extent but NEVER would i try and push this opinion onto others or try and force such ideals onto other people.
i'm not defending these people, BUT i think it's still ok to enjoy this ship and other ships within the genshin community if you act right.
also to add onto this, its just the fact that some people who ship just don't know how to act (not everyone)
A great example are Arlefuri shippers, as they are willing to defend the idea of an abuse and assault victim getting into a relationship with their attacker. They're also willing to believe that, despite all evidence to the contrary, Arlecchino is just "misunderstood" and "a victim," as though she _isn't_ directly contributing to the abusive and exploitative system that is the House of the Hearth.
@@Jackson-ub1uvi might get beheaded for this but i just like the ship in like some au way that its healthy otherwise i dont know if just sending cakes is gonna help furina from that trauma😔‼️ (i dont really exacfly like the idea of toxic ships if it would be toxic id sort of try to make it healthy only in my head)
@@Jackson-ub1uvarlecchino is a victim tho. she didn’t choose to grow up in the HotH, didn’t choose to be groomed into becoming the perfect soldier for the fatui. and i don’t think she had much of a choice when the tsaritsa made her a new member of the fatui and head of the HotH. but i agree that arlecchino being a victim shouldn’t be used as an excuse to dismiss the fact that she’s contributing to a system that exploit children. she even recognizes that HotH isn’t really a "home" for children.
people reducing arlecchino to a victim clearly don’t understand her.
I personally see Kaveh needing help not because he's stupid or emotional
Its just the poor guy is traumatized and just depressed, but he's working through it you know
I feel like he is emotional, but more so in the way he cares about others, to the point he may do things that seem dumb, like donating Mora to a health-related charity or sharing his food and water with the Fennec-like creatures during Parade of Providence.
@@IchigoShinagami indeed, he's so empathic just the thought of others suffering brings him down
I think both Kaveh and Alhaitham are incredibly intelligent and hilariously stupid at the same time. They've both acknowledged canonically (either in voice lines/overs or their character stories) that the other one is the only person they feel like they can have intelligent conversations with (aka the other is at the same level as them). But at the same time Kaveh is very naive because he chooses to always believe in the best in people, whereas Alhaitham is often portrayed as having very little empathy and doesn't care if he hurts or antagonizes others unless he needs them for some goal of his (and I'm pretty sure sometimes he doesn't even realize how condescending he's being). I like that aspect of them, because I feel like it's human to be very intelligent in some situations and then go and do something incredibly stupid in the next.
Btw from the fanfics on AO3 that I read, I didn't get the impression that you described in the video (then again I am very selective with the ones I read). I feel like if anything, Alhaitham is the one being written as more feminine/softer than he actually is and Kaveh is written as being much smarter than him (when it comes to emotions always, + often in how to be a proper human, + sometimes in academics though usually they are portrayed as being equally intelligent in that field). The only fics I remember where Kaveh was being "stupid" and Alhaitham "the big strong man who saves him" are set in times where Kaveh is still a student and working non-stop on his projects until Alhaitham comes and forces him to drink, eat and sleep.
I don't read their fanfic, so I can't really speak on it, but this is mostly based on my experiences of how people spoke of him on social media 🤔 it has been getting better than how he was interpreted during Sumeru
Well I think Kaveh having a taste in cloths and art is actually cool as hell!!
He would be girls best friend!
Because if he knows you well enough, he surely would know what would suit you more and what not...
Kaveh is not dumb, that so clear when you played his Hangout
He is emotional and acts impulsive.
This inpulsivity is the cause of his debt.
I know a voiceline from Alhaitham, in which he said, that Kaveh bought some keychains because someone with a stand on the streets sold them and told Kaveh for every keychain they sold a child in poverty would be fed...
That is such a sweet gesture of Kaveh...
Unfortunately Kaveh actually got scammed there, but tbh thats not his fault!. Okay yes he should have thought about the healthcare situation first, but thats his impulsivity.
Remember the 3.6 main event, where he gave away all of his food to 3 hungry desert foxes... that was just as sweet but also.. his inpulsivity showing again..
Kaveh is nothing but kindness, but he doesn't think his plans through..
Alhaitham is over thinking tho, thus he comes off as cold and a lone wolf..
I feel like its more or less destiny that they are roomates, as both could potentially benefit from each other.
Kaveh intelligence is not only his architect skills but also his emotional skills.
And Alhaitham's intelligence lies within analyzeing things to the finest, overly thinking about things..
If they just wouldn't stop argueing... or better.. IF Kaveh's emotions wouldn't get the better of him (Feed Fire with Fire).. It would be better
I agree
...hold up, people think kaveh is dumb???? in what universe?????
I wanted to get into architecture but dipped because of the math requirements (and the lack of any room for art in this modern day and age of big steel/concrete/glass square buildings, but that's a whole other rant). I flunked out of calculus twice and barely passed the third (on-level calc, mind you! this wasn't advanced, I'm just so garbage at algebra that I can never get the right answer even with crystal understanding of the subject!). Do you know how much worse it gets when you get into architecture and move on from just basic calc? Because I got to get a taste and. oh my god. you need to have a galactic brain for this stuff. and with the added pressure of other people's safety being on the line?????
kaveh's not dumb. maybe people got that one line from alhaitham where he donated money for a health-related charity in a city with free healthcare. but I read that more as him making an emotional decision and him wanting to help, not him being dumb. if he could design beautiful buildings and bridges the way that he does, he can't be dumb. ik I'm preaching to the choir here but gOD am I mad now. Kaveh's one of my favorite characters (I'm praying for him to come home soon) and I'm in disbelief people are mischaracterizing him to this point
Agree here. But… we can’t say how much of a free the healthcare really is. Surely you need to still pay mora, right? And then it becomes a question of how good the healthcare even is. A healthcare can be affordable and be horrible, just like it can be the plain opposite, at times. I have my experiences, as someone who lived with braces for a long time. So him donating to a healthcare fund while the healthcare system is free in Sumeru, may not be a bad thing. Especially if we don’t know which fund it is and if it’s for Sumeru specifically😅
@@Elliarts54 yeah, I know. but I'm so tired of irl issues that I tend to distance games and irl issues, and as healthcare is one of those things that's always coming up in political circles (not as often now as before but still there) it's just something I rather not think about too deeply while I'm enjoying the game. I was taking the line at face value and assuming that it was for sumeru healthcare and that said care is pretty good, considering how alhaitham brushes it off and how advanced sumeru is in terms of education/knowledge
you have good points and they help even more in kaveh's defense tho!
there’s a difference between book smart and street smart. kaveh probably isn’t very street smart
It was such a coincidence I foud this video because I was just thinking about this some days ago lol.
Kaveh is a character with so much potential and I love him, mainly because he reminds me of my sister (She's an architect, gets in debt and is kinda insufferable sometimes lol), and it's kind of sad to see all his personality reduced to the "wife" of Alhaitham.
Don´t get me wrong, I like the ship, but I totally hate the absolute simplification of these characters because of a ship.
Anyways, you gained a sub, I'll be waiting for the Furina video! (Glad to find another enjoyer of Neuvillette x Furina pairing
Yeah the actual ship itself is fine but certain interpretations can be problematic at times, thanks for the sub.
he's the first man to experience misogyny
I legit never saw anyone calling Kaveh dumb. Naive? Sure, but not dumb. And i sit deep in his fandom since legit first leaks abour him
Finally, someone said it. (I apologize for the long comment, but I have so much to say)
I like Kaveh x Alhaitham, but I had to distance myself from the ship because a lot of the fandom surrounding it (or at least a very vocal part), saw the ship in a very fetishy way, riddled with awful gender roles and mischaracterization on both sides (but more on Kaveh's).
The whole time you were talking, I was thinking of a video by Nicholas Black called .
And of course, there's nothing wrong with enjoying wlw/mlm ships as a straight person, the problem is when those relationships get fetishized.
I think that characters like Kaveh or Furina, are the perfect example of how some genshin players either play the game with their eyes closed, or straight up mold the characters to fit whatever idea they have of them, ignoring the actual canon characterization.
Also, I've just subscribed to you and I'd love to see you talking about the infantilization of Furina by the fandom; although I don't see her being infatilized that much by the shippers (like Neuvirina or Wriolette shippers), the people that do it that I've come across, are mostly Furina x Neuvillette antis because they want to paint the ship as a "proship" or "toxic" or just Furina antis who say she is a "bratty and childish archon", but I'd love to hear more about it nonetheless.
(Also the way people say that Furina is immature and childish but say that Focalors is smart and mature when they're literally the same person, one is the divinity and the other the humanity)
In conclusion, amazing video, keep it up (sorry if there are spelling mistakes, english is not my first language)
This is why i believe in switch supremacy if no one is a specific bottom then no one has to be put down and feminized just because they are a bottom. (Im also delusional and think just this would fix everything /hj) Also, i hate seeing people mischaracterize Kaveh half of the time i see people just make him the stereotypical bottom who can’t do anything himself or they make him being broke drunkard and they turn that into his whole personality. Since its still his birthday in my timezone,, happy birthday Kaveh.
@@coffinori Yeeess!!! Switch supremacy!!!!
Fr switch realness that stupid “kaveh is a babygirl bottom alhaitham is daddy top🔥” thing has gotta stop (im sorta a top kaveh fan 🫡) the fandom has gotta stop dumbing down feminine characters to sexual choices infact when i said i preferred top kaveh on pinterest some person replied saying “how can you see him as one LOL hes a babygirl and deserves to only be bottom let him be 😒” and i was so confused 😭😭😭
in my opinion, confining a gay character in general to only being a top or only being a bottom is a very heteronormative approach. like yes, there are some gay people who would only stick to one, but most gay couples are in fact switches. and assigning a character as a top or as a bottom based on how masculine/feminine they are is firstly, sexist in a sense and secondly, as i mentioned before, very heteronormative.
plus if you actually analyze the characters deeply and understand how they work, then it makes more sense for kaveh to be a top than alhaitham. but that's a different conversation altogether.
Maybe it would be better if we stopped pigeonholing people by the sexual position they take in their intimacy with their partner...? If that logic had to be followed, all women with a vagina would be submissive and we know perfectly well that that is not how the human mind works. There's just too much obsession with sex!
@@tanukiianfrr, like, They literally have the two options, do you really think they are going to limit themselves to just one? XD
I’m a major Haikaveh shipper but yeah, Kaveh is one of my favorite characters and I prefer that he is seen for the strong, ambitious yet kind and empathetic person he is. I like the ship for who the characters are and how they work off of each other, although I do enjoy the small OOC (soft Al Haitham) fic every now and then
don't mind me talk about my opinion, about Neufuri ship
I shipped Furina and Neuvillette as a relationship with respect with each other, Furina who always care for her people, and Neuvillette who cares about Furina. Neuvillette respect Furina because her love for her people is very very strong and Furina respect Neuvillette for always stay by her side despite her bratty persona. As for the father and daughter relationship, I just find it weird because both of them is about the same age cmiiw
They mainly do that to lift up a different popular ship of his.
If anything this other ship of his is more problematic in terms of age gaps and will be more reasonable at seeing it as father-son (even if they don't have that relationship)
I'm not here to insult the ship, I don't think it's problematic by itself but between both ships IF there has to be a more strange and problematic ship, it wouldn't be Neuvfuri.
"Straight women who fetishise gay men" is such an insignificant minority in any fandom, that making them seem like this huge problem is in itself misogynistic (i suggest watching "Women Who Enjoy Boys in Love - A Tale of Misogyny, Racism and Transphobia" by E for more on the topic). Because the problem isn't the shippers who actually like these characters. Its the ones who hate them and want to find moral reasons to justify why the ship is bad, or they like the ship but hate the character.
I specified who I am talking about and toxic people in general tend to be the minority, doesn´t mean they shouldn´t be called out. I am not saying every straight women who enjoys gay content fetezhises them if that´s what you think I am saying. I will check out that video, thanks.
I don´t quite agree with the last part though, fans of characters and ships can still mischaracterize them, for one reason or the other. You don´t have to get them 100% right for you to be a fan of a character or ship, you just have to enjoy it even if it is skewed. People who hate the characters and/or ship do mischaracterize them, yes but so do fans.
Seriously though, HE WEILDS A CLAYMORE! people act like muscle mass = Strength in spite of characters like Mitsuri, Kaveh himself, Diluc (who people forget is canonically *much* stronger than most, vision holders included), and importantly Freminet who is around 16! The only "evidence" people have for thinking Kaveh is physically weak is that he uses Mehrak for attacks and has recoil after plunge attacks, both of which can be explained by 1. "An artist's greatest tool is their hands" i.e his entire livelyhood relies on two things, Mathmatics and the health of his hands + joints and 2. Kaveh appears to be ambidextrous with a preference for his left hand, despite this he performs his plunge attack right-handedly, which as a result of this preference could be slightly weaker.
I’ve never ever seen anyone portray kaveh as dumb, like the other comments, or give him a “woman”, “wife” role. Maybe I’ve just been oblivious to how fans treat him but really, most I’ve seen is him being called baby girl in good fun, lol. I’ve seen how passionate fans of kaveh have been and defend him to celestia and back.
And as much as I enjoy genshin and kaveh as character, and I understand where you’re coming from, but I feel like infantilization of a fictional character is not that serious. I would understand if hoyoverse themselves wrote the story in a way that portrays him something he’s not, and then a proper discussion could be held, or if he were a real person, again yes. But seeing as how its fans having their own headcanons about said fictional character, it’s kinda just meh. Again, I respect your opinion however, this is just how I feel.
I'm a feminine man really into art and I see myself a lot in Kaveh. I haven't fully watched the video yet, but I've been looking for someone to talk about this and I'm glad his mischaracterisation is being brought up
I think the people who think Kaveh is stupid is because of how they interpreted Al Haitham's voicelines, but to me those seem more like Kaveh being drawn to his emotions more than being dumb, and Al Haitham just expresses his own concern for him in his own way.
Kaveh is a literal genius, and a lot of characters like Nahida and AlHaitham himself had said they respect his work. People just see stubbornness, literal depression symptoms and being in tact w your feelings “being dumb”.
this articulates a lot of what i dislike about how kaveh and furina and just... a lot of characters in media in general are treated. i ship neuvillette and furina and i am neutral towards kaveh and alhaitham. a lot of the time i find it the content for these ships frustrating and uncomfortable because it often involves a lack of agency for members of the ship. i dunno. i dont have much to add other than you hit the nail on the head.
Not here to fight or anything
I love this video
But I do think Al haitham is more intelligent than kaveh in a broad sense
Sure Kaveh might be more versed and knowledgeable
Alhaitham is still more intelligent that Kaveh
It's like how knowledge and intellect work differently
Kaveh isn't dumb per say but leans more into his emotions than logical thinking
That flaw is what made him likeable to me cus I'm like him too
While Alhaitham put logic and what benefits him before emotion which is why nahida thinks he should humble himself
No, it's okay, I understand your point, and I can see it, but I was mostly just referring to like smart as being good at math yk? Not necessarily all forms of intelligence
@@asabiexplains Ahh I see
My bad then
@@Sam-je2xj all is good, you made a good point regardless
I fully agree! The fandom does disturb me. I’m a kaveh main. Sometimes when people join my world they sexualise kaveh so much that it genuinely grosses me out. Someone joined my friend (maining alhaitham) and I once, and literally went “oh? Alhaitham I thought you impregnated kaveh.” And despite our discomfort to the person they went on and on. It really annoys me how people thiink sometimes.
I love you so much/p
Exactlyyyy!!. I’m on the same side of the coin, I DO think that he needs healing and headcannon Alhaitham could help him with that, but some people just go overboard and treat him like a baby who needs alhaitham to basically survive. We know he’s been through a lot, but so have other characters. You wouldn’t treat, say, Wriothesley or Diluc in the same way as Kaveh, would you?. It’s just stupid seeing people mischaracterize him as dumb because he displays some feminine mannerisms.
@@iexiste1188 YOU AND ARE THE SAME HERE. he does need healing and Alhaitham could help him, but Kaveh is a strong person who can protect himself. Alhaitham is the helping hand that Kaveh needs to become stronger mentally
I‘m a huge Kaveh fan and my friends who play genshin are Alhaitham fans and they never understood why I got so upset when someone even implied that Alhaitham is smarter than Kaveh, but it’s because of this. I am „traumatized“ by people like this like bruh Kaveh is still a man and he graduated from the same school as Alhaitham, I also don‘t think Alhaitham would have much respect for someone dumber than him and as far as I can tell, he respects Kaveh a lot AS HE SHOULD IN A ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIP. I do ship them, but on a non-toxic basis, just two gay men who live in the same house and have their own lives.
You are so right in all of the points presented in the video! Your explanation and thoughts are presented simply but well!
Haven't watched the whole video, but based on the first few minutes of the video, I am astonished to see the reasons why Kaveh is seen as feminine. It never comes across my mind that these are feminine traits because these features just seem like a thing that can be applied to both men and women, even if it is seen more in women. But just... What? Can someone just explain how exactly they are deemed as feminine traits because I think I really need to review a lot of things on what I view as feminine, masculine and neutral. Or maybe it's because I don't know him well enough to judge, considering I've only seen him in the archon quest
I don´t quite know how to explain it but a lot of the things categorised by society as feminine are traits that Kaveh has. In real life none of the things should be categories as things only woman can do but that´s just the reality of the world we live in. I don´t think you need to review your views, you are right those traits should not be considered feminine as they are traits anyone can have, they just are. I hope that helps somehow
Same, I've never seen Kaveh as feminine--and yet I hear people unironically call him "babygirl". I'll admit that I don't think I know the usual connotation of "babygirl" but every time I hear it, it sounds so demeaning to my ears when its used to refer to anyone older than 10.
@@brookles6177just look up urban dictionary lol, it is mostly a term of endearment, like even your 40yo stoic male character gets called babygirl or your big muscular bro character. It is also used to refer to characters that are sensitive or emotional. So no, its not necesarily used as a way to feminize characters tho i'm sure there's people that use it on that way.
His clothes are inspired by clothes that iranian women used to wear back then, his only female trait
You has a point.
Anyone else likes Kaveh specifically because he's a rare representation of a math nerd type character (he literally plots his attack trajectories like graphs) who is also emotional and doesn't look like the nerd stereotype just for being an engineer?
Kaveh and Alhaitham’s ship ends up being the least interesting thing about their relationship. Them being two people that completely disagree with one another, pessimist vs optimist/calculation vs passion- but still see and have an underlying respect for the others talents and intelligence is better, in and out of ship
The moment I actually started to care about Kaveh was in ALHAITHEMS STORY QUEST 😭😭😭
I remember Playing ut and thinking "damn Alhaithem the duck is wrong with you , you are the scribe the person who should look over the academia and it's problems , but your first reaction when you see a group of scholars who are so burnt out and literally on the edge of killing themselves because of the pression they are put under is literally act like you are better than them , OFC you are when you are an advantaged prick who spends his time roasting people from above , ofc when you aren't in their situation you can't feel in their shoes"
And then out of nowhere Kaveh appears !!! Amd literally speak out loud the entire things I was thinking about !!! And from that day on he became my favorite character
Absolutely amazing video. Kaveh is one of my favorite characters, sadly a lot of his lore is stuck in those character stories that almost no one reads (except me lol). But it always frustrates me how such a smart character is always just dumbed down to “haha alhathem’s angy boyfriend”, there’s a lot of traits that I myself relate to in Kaveh, like being an artist and in correlation his love of the sciences and things (which art is automatically tied to art in some way) as well as a lot of his guilt about family stuff. So as a woman myself to just see these kinda things just dumbed down for the sake of shipping or just because he’s the “woman” in the relationship is just disappointing (don’t get me wrong i love Kaveh x alhathem). Luckily the game itself and the characters do acknowledge how smart Kaveh really is, including alhathem. TLDR I’m kaveh’s #1 Stan for life lmaoo
Plus, I honestly fell like calling Kaveh a feminine character is generalizing a set of attributes as generally "feminine" like if no "real man" could ever be like that.
I strongly advise to not gatekeeping quirks, personality traits and behaviours as gender locked.
The whole video I was rooting for kaveh to put the darn crown on that pedestal
kaveh's one of my favorite characters, and this video took the words right out of my mouth. but this is also kind of why i dont ship or bother interacting with "shippers" in the first place. it tends to ruin the character themself for me. they start becoming less of an individual and more of a husk only ment to serve as the "accessory" to another character. the fetishization of ships is disgusting, too. its gross and creepy. i'm fine with people shipping characters so long as they do it away from me.
side note: the only reason why i dont like the alhaitham kaveh ship is because kaveh genuinely dislikes alhaitham and it seems like alhaitham causes him mental anguish. also, alhaitham constantly accidentally locking kaveh out of the house and being unbothered and nonchalant about it is really toxic and unnerving to me, idk. i just think kaveh deserves better. he's such a beautiful and complex character, and is my fav sumeru character aside from dehya.
i also dont really like shipping neuvillette with anyone since a good portion of his character is about learning to overcome his stunted social intelligence while also being very emotionally intelligent. he knows he feels, but doesnt know WHY he feels. and it feels wrong to expect him to be in a romantic relationship much less ship him into one in the first place.
as for a ship i actually dont mind, its tighnari and cyno, because that one doesnt make either character feel like an accessory to the other. they actually make sense both character and story wise. (although they kind of act like "big brothers" to collei with her being their "sister", as they said in the past windblume event, so take from that what you will lmao.)
anyway tldr; loved the video! very good analysis
Yes Yes Yes. Finally someone talking about this.
Instead of making their straight ships more healthy, hets turn our queer ships into toxic ones.
It's crazy.
And then you either get called homophobic for "not supporting gay ships" or a mysoginist for "looking down on women's interests"...
I can't even count the times I stumbled upon "fanart" where "the bottom" turns into a child for no reason and stuff happens with "the top" who is still an adult..
As a queer person who grew up with queer siblings and a p3do for a neighbor, if these are your interests, you SHOULD be looked down on at the very least.
This was a video about Kaveh, I'm aware, though I wanna emphasize that Alhaitham gets that same shallow treatment but in the opposite direction. He is seen as an unfeeling, selfish guy who cares only about himself. I've heard countless jokes about the Traveler needing help and Alhaitham always refusing to budge since he can't be bothered. If you ask shippers, he only truly cares about Kaveh and no one else. The mischaracterization is insane.
Kaveh warned us about this, pointing out that Alhaitham does have feelings and quite the personality but that you gotta know him to see it. Plus, Alhaitham is courteous when he deems it appropriate, he's emotionally intelligent, and he wants others to do well. He just won't break himself for every person he comes across since he knows not everyone can be saved.
Players tend to think Alhaitham cares nothing for others because of his unwillingness to openly display his emotions (unlike Kaveh), and his unwillingness to admit he does something because he cares. Many players were fooled by Alhaitham *SEVERAL TIMES* when he tried to pass off his displays of affection as nothing. Unfortunately, it worked.
This is also why so many think he hates Kaveh when he doesn't. They cannot see past his aloof act. Interestingly though, his intelligence is never put into question due to his success in life and "in control" attitude. Even though during the Archon quest, he did do something risky and arguably foolish, which was to aid the Traveler in the way that he did. It could've cost him everything if they hadn't allied with others to take down Azar (which happened later on and Alhaitham had no way of knowing this would ultimately save his @ss).
Risking his neck like that for a person he only just met is borderline insane, yet Alhaitham is a man who "does what he wants" which is why so many label him as insane during the AQ. When he wants to do something he does it, consequences be damned. He is almost a slave to his interests as they are what motivate many of his actions. Still--- I have not seen a single person call him stupid or reckless. Quite the opposite, they were trying to justify him siding with the Traveler as a rational decision when the writers went out of their way to show it was emotional - proving Kaveh right. Alhaitham himself cued us in, saying that he found the Traveler interesting which should've been a dead giveaway of his motives. But shippers were far too focused on his interactions with Kaveh to realize Alhaitham had eyes for another there. And your average player knows too little about Alhaitham's character to realize the implications of such a statement.
I could go on but the point here is, Alhaitham is seen incorrectly by the fandom just as much as Kaveh. And it all comes down to a superficial reading of their characters, stereotypes, and rabid shipping that always ruin everything (not to be confused with non-rabid shipping which is fine).
Alhaitham seems more autistic-coded than anything, my guy even has noise-cancelling headphones to tune people out, but people usually think autistic people are rude pr unfeeling, same with Alhaitham, just because they don’t spend so much on what would be small talks or talking about their feelings. I never thought people would think he hates Kaveh, he literally gave him shelter and acted in a way Kaveh wouldn’t feel a burden, I believe he mentions it somewhere, it stuck with me lol
I am not hetero, nor a woman myself. However, I think it's not that weird that a big part of hetero women enjoy more gay ships than straight ones.
Because :
1/. A lot of feminine characters in fiction are not treated well by the ones who write them.
2/. They want to identify with characters they see as equal to their partner.
3/. They are also probably horny for both characters of the ship ?
Yes, there is absolutely wrong with being straight and enjoying gay content, the problem comes when that the ONLY thing they enjoy and when they start to fetishize gay people and push heteronormative ideologies on the characters.
Sadly this is a normal thing for every fandom.
Im from the tgcf fandom, and theres the literal main character getting dumbed down, and ROBBED of his character by some people and most.
Xie lian is reduced to just, a soft femboy...A FEMBOY. He is such a broken, and interesting character, he is kind, he is snarky, in the past he screwed up time and time again and learned from those mistakes. He is smart, and decisive. He is strong, and merciless but also gentle and merciful. He can be a bit hypocritical, but he has peoples bets interests at heart despite what he thinks. He lost his kingdom, he lost his wealth and was banished from the heavens 3 times and he was humiliated by his fellow gods because of his failures and because he has bad luck. But all these features are irrelevant. I see people just dumb him down so much that hes not even the same character anymore, not even just him, hua cheng is right there and they screw him up as well. Literally they reduce both of them to that one wattpad trope instead of what they truly are. Hua cheng and xie lians dynamic is interesting, free, and depsite hua cheng calling xie lian wife that one time because they were married, that doesnt make xie lians character go poof. That doesnt make their dynamic go poof. IM TIRED OF SEEING PEOPLE FETISHIZE XIE LIAN AND HUA CHENG, GIVE THEM BOTH SOME RESPECT. Im out for blood because even if hua cheng ended up flirty and needy with xie lian, and xie lian just let that slide, its because bro waited 800 years. Xie lian as a character and how he is, is definitely going to understand that. Bro, we are talking about a couple that kissed on the 300th page of the 3rd book and only confessed next book 7. Yet they reduce both of them so much i hate it. Again, LEAVE THOSE TWO ALONE.
(I migh make another comment ranting about wangxian.)
Fellow danmei reader, hiii.
Yeah, it is quite disheartening to see characters that have so much about them be reduced to stereotypes and fetesized traits. I haven't been in the tgcf and mdzs fandom for a while, but it's not shocking to see that it is still happening. It happens to most danmei couples, sadly and outside of these fandoms as well. It's nice to read about someone else's opinion on similar media as me. I would love to read what you have to say about wangxian :]
@@asabiexplains well on wangxians side, I will focus on lan wangji because even if wei wuxians fetishization is bad, at least there's a small reason that also goes with the canon since wei wuxian is shameless (he is still heavily dumbed down and fetishized, like my man created a new art without a golden core, was homeless and taken into a family with an abusive mother , a brother, a sister and his uncle Jiang. A prodigy in his time that broke the rules and was a shameless troublemaker, then one day he was screwed up, lost his family, and by extension his entire clan, he was pushed into the burial mounds and-- I'm just talking about his entire lore atp...)
But yeah, like xie lian he has so much more to his character than what the fandom thinks of him. LEAVE MY MAN ALONE, NO HE WONT, AND NEVER WILL GO AROUND AND JUST LIKE ANY MAN??? NO HE WONT SELL HIMSELF ANIMEGIRL297.
But I'm also going to talk about lan wangji, and how the fandom makes me cringe. Lan wangji, has a lot to his character as well. But I won't talk about his lore for now because I'm not repeating my wei wuxian mistake. But bro over here lost his loved one for 13 years because of misunderstanding galore and was willing to turn on his clan because a lan only loves once, and he lost that love. He won't again, which is why he acts the way he does. He does love wei wuxian and will spoil him, but bro lost him once and at that one death, they were on bad terms, wei wuxian thought lan wangji hated him which lan wangji thought that wei wuxian thought that he hated him on his first life when he died so of course he wants to set a good relationship and grind for his love. No he will not go all alpha male and force wei wuxian to love him, he wanted to earn that, and he did. I mean they mischaracteriz lan wangji so much, it makes me despise people.
This happened to me with another ship I won't talk much about since this is about wangxian, but namsu (namgung su x suryong baek) with it's tiny little fandom over here with 1 private discord server n' 16 people in it (me and mutuals, along with their mutuals.) they make namgung seem so helpless even though bro is the star instructor of the top 5 martial academies in the world of martial arts and is actually powerful and smart, the worst part is that it's only because bros a pretty male, like he's femine, so automatically he's the helpless one (even if I see suryong being the one to joke about being helpless, its literally in suryongs character to be playful, shameless, flirty, I literally see wei wuxian and him as brothers atp.. I ignore that messed up discord place now.
@@mobileChroniclesofgenshin yapper but fr
The fact that this all just boils down to shippers being dumb by not accepting the fact that head canons AREN'T canon, all the while refusing to accept that fact and harassing anyone online who either calls them out or just even disagrees by a slight margin... is just downright facepalm-worthy, as always.
Of course, Genshin isn't the first fandom to have people within it being guilty of these delusions. Sadly, it won't be the last. As someone who's a part of many fandoms myself, I've seen all this "Twitter behavior" from western-based franchises like the superhero universes of Marvel and DC. It's even worse when said people with such delusions are the ones both companies are now actively hiring to either "redefine" their legendary characters, or create cheap new characters that just fizzle out into the wind like failed publicity stunts.
I guess my point is that I'd argue the fandoms of western franchises have it worse cuz those delusional idiots are actually getting *hired* to write more garbage, rather than those with a good head on their shoulders and actually know their stuff.
In a unrelated RUclips video, I did hear about how being an architect and journalist are very well rounded careers since they involve a lot of different skills. Charlotte is now roped into here lol.
Before 4.0, I already enjoy shipping Furina and Neuve. I don’t understand why people act like they’re related, either. Their dynamic isn’t emotionally as difficult to ship as Furina and Alecchino. I guess friends to lovers isn’t as popular as enemies to lovers?
Completely agree with everything u said except the part about Furina not being Neuvillette’s daughter. Ofc they aren’t biologically but Neuvillette has taken care of her since she became the hydro archon… or more like… guided like a father would. If not a father, then older brother also works but there is this familial bond between them, just like when u care about a friend like if they were family to you. Nothing wrong there. But yeah, seeing her as she is completely useless without Neuvillette is false. However, she does rely on him, like when she begged him to just be with her when she had to talk with Arlecchino. She was scared of her so ofc she decided to rely on Neuvillette.
I understand where you're coming from, but I think that Neuvillette has never really "guided" Furina, to me it actually seems the opposite.
First of all, it was Furina/Focalors that gave Neuvillette the position of Iudex, it's clear that they have both worked for 500 years together, handling different tasks but still giving their all without seeking guidance from the other, because they both had different strenghts that the other didn't possess (Neuvillette handled the more practical affaires of Fontaine behind the scenes while Furina handled more direct issues with the people).
Also it's made clear in the Archon Quest that Furina has never relied on anyone, she has always felt alone because nobody could know the truth, nobody could comfrot her, nobody was there to guide her, she carried Fontaine on her back for 500 years of solitude; to this day, Furina isn't sure if anybody really loves her because she hasn't made any connections as her true self, that's highlighted by Neuvillette's (chinese and japanese) voiceline during Furina's Story Quest on how "I hope one day she'll be able to understand that our love isn't fake".
Also, in the Lantern Rite 4.4, it's shown that Furina is actually the one guiding Neuvillette, urging him to open himself up to the people, to put himself out there more, to make connections with his people; this is also shown after Focalors's death, when Neuvillette says that calling him to Fontaine as the Iudex, was Focalors/Furina's plan to make him understand and develop affection towads humans, to ultimately save them.
At the end of the day, if you want to see their relationship as platonic that's fine, but I think that saying that Neuvillette is a father figure to Furina, just undermines all of the sacrifices that Furina made for 500 years, her maturity and actual characterization.
(Sorry for the long post but I wanted to explain myself clearly so that I won't be misunderstood)
@@Victri-yr2zn yeah what you say is completely true and I do agree to some extent. Thanks for replying to my comment. However I dont feel like considering someone as a father figure undermines anyone. Furina is her own persona and she has gone this far all on her own, but she does rely on Neuvillette even if it is for silly things like just having his presence. She didn’t trust him with everything, but again… not everyone tells their parents/family all their secrets. I just see it like that. Just like I consider Nahida being a motherly figure to Wanderer. Saying someone is a parental figure to another should not disregard who that other character is. It just gives a sense of how their dynamic works.
@@micaelavargas1498 I can completely see where you're coming from, I just happen to disagree as I feel that viewing Furina as Neuvillette's daughter can often lead to her mischaracterization/infantilization (not always of course).
But of course I have nothing against people with a different opinion than me, we both have our different view points and can agree to disagree.
Thanks for engaging respectfully in the conversation btw, it's something that not everyone is able to do online, have a nice day
7:52 I actually never knew about that. I got (I don't know the word, since I'm not an english native speaker and I got told I wasn't using the right words and overreacting when I talked about it once on social media), uh, let's say people were really rude and insensitive with me once because I explained how I could see her and Neuvillette being inspired from Kiana and Siegfried in HI3 (father and daughter), however I don't necessarily see her as his litteral child or as a child period. I don't mind the ship - though the way these people were extremely rude did make me feel a bit conflicted with it ever since, but it's not about the ship in itself which I can find cute. I do know she gets babied quite a lot, but I didn't know the link between those ships/headcanons/whatever you want to call it.
He doesn't seem feminine to me. People are crazy.
I think he's dumb because he won the competition and donated it all instantly before paying his debts off first. Giving away this money was fine, but he would help people more if instead of struggling with his own debts, he solved his own problems to be more free to help others. He definitely needs to work on his survival instinct.
He has different priorities, it’s alright, if he’s surviving alright with the debts and wants to pay it off at his own time it’s his call tbh, he saw people who needed it more and gave it away, he’s kind
i agree with all the points you made but why the random mention of danmei? but yeah even though kaveh is one of my favorite characters i try to stay away from his fandom as they can be really annoying and cringy, especially on twitter
It's...... interesting to say the least that i often see cyno getting basically the same treatment in the fandom. As if all he knows is how to beat people up and make dad jokes. I don't know if it's a matter of just reducing characters to a one dimentional steteotype based on a single trait or if it has a deeper reason (like kaveh being a more flamboyant and queer coded character and cyno being one of the few characters with darker skin perhaps). Anyway about Kaveh, i think a lot of it has to do with people seeing him as very emotional, which is a trait seen as very feminine, and therefore he must be irrational in these misogynists' tiny little brains. Kaveh is just as sensitive, kind and empathetic as he is intelligent, talented and competent and those two sides of him are constantly at conflict and that's basically the source of all his problems and what his whole character is about but people manage to cut off half of it and make him an idiot bc it's inconceivable to them that someone can be emotional and intelligent at the same time
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS 🙏🙏🙏 I’ve been saying this for a long time and I agree whole heartily on it. Kaveh’s “feminine traits” are just normal traits a person to have and yet it gets him reduced down to Alhaitham’s boytoy and serves as an excuse to heavily sexualize and fetishize what is supposed to be a normal gay relationship between two men.
this is such a good video and i 100% agree, this side of the fandom is literally why i never tell people i play genshin
I kinda agree with almost everything you said expect for kaveh behind mischaraterize as dumb cause I see a lots of kavetham content he never got treated like that. Maybe it's just me who messed up some stuff about them so I would like exempt if you could 😅
YES YES YES I‘M ON THE VERGE OF CRYING RN FINALLY SOMEONE SAID IT IT HAD TO BE SAID👏
I’ve never seen anyone portrayed him as dumb, but I see more people stereotyping him as a woman/wife . .
He gets treated like the woman because he nags Alhaitham about household chores like a housewife 😂
4:28 Is this a reference to Wriothesley and Neuvillette shippers? Which is the basis of the unreasonable ship?
I mean that was when the Fontaine cast was revealed, now they do have a basis
Nope, Neuvillette and Wriothesley have basis
This video made me reflect a lot on my perspective on Kaveh, he's a character that I love a lot, so understanding him more is something that makes me enthusiastic. I totally agree with your opinion, thank you for making me think about this thing that I never actually thought about. (Sorry for trash english)
I think many are even missing the entire point of your video, assuming its because people accidently view him as dumb, instead of your argument which genuinely seems entirely supported and evident: Kaveh is mistreated, mischaracterized, and looked down upon precisely because of his more feminine attributes and its a fascinating reality and fantastic and insightful analysis, well done
Appreciate you
“Why don’t you head canon yourself a passing grade?”
I ALMOST SPAT OUT MY FOOD SHSHSJSJSJSJS
This is SO interesting I always had similar reflections about the game but never heard anyone talk about it ❤
it's really unfortunate when characters with deep-lore get less spotlight due to them not being five stars (kaveh, ningguang)
I see what the creator was trying to do, and I think overall this is the best thing that could come out of this fandom.
However, I still have many things I disagree with. I personally think it's two completely different things for a man to be feminine and to be in touch with his feminine side, I don't think Kaveh is feminine, saying he's feminine because he's artistic, he knows how to dress, and because he's honest with his emotions is actually very stupid. High emotional intelligence shouldn't be a feminine trait but rather a trait any healthy adult should have? It's a way to know how mature that person is. And just because Kaveh dresses in a flamboyant way doesn't make him feminine at all, many people spoke before that his design represents his culture perfectly and is pretty masculine, this is how persian men used to dress like :// and the artistic point is just painful. Anyone can be an artist? You don't see people saying Albedo is feminine for being an artist? Gosh.. I can't believe it's been over a year, and people still manage to screw his character up??? I can't believe this is THE BEST video analysis I see of his character, and it's still pretty bad.
I genuinely believe the reason why so many people think he's feminine is because many people don't realize that feminity is different from one culture to another. Just because you're white and these are considered feminine, where you live doesn't actually make it that way??? It reminds me of that incident with the Filipino nurse who got SO MUCH backlash for having a wife and people accused him for queer baiting because he was "acting gay" and Filipino men defended him saying that's literally how they act in their country..they think they're the standard 😐
It's sad that all of this happened because people THINK he's feminine. :// Misogyny is very real, and I agree with the creator that people treat him this way because they view him as a feminine man.
Kaveh is very under utilises in the story I feel they should have taken a different route with his character.
Same here, I would have loved him more if he was actually present in the archon quest or at least had a better introduction.
wow, this video explains why I hate a lot of ships (especially when involving character I like), not because of the ship itself, but because how most shippers potrays them and their relationship. I enjoy ships that potray very out of character for comedic purpose because it is not meant to be taken seriously (the Kazuha that steals hat lol), but for romantic ships it tends to be serious and I despise it even more if it becomes the NSFW stereotype
for Haikaveh ships tho I'm pretty natural about it, not my favorite even though I love their dynamic in game, what makes me kinda not liking the ship is because how imbalance the relationship is. But rather than disliking how Kaveh potrayed, I dislike how Alhaitham potrayed more, I just feel HYV make him too Gary Sue, his plan always going according to his plan, he always win the argument, please just once I want to see Kaveh not being the dumb one where he wins an argument, when empathy triumph over logic, where Alhaitham need help from Kaveh
Good point made, I like your take on this.
In sbort the fans project onto him to no end
Well, he can design the hell out the Palace of alca (can't pronounce that).
So if something needs a feminine touch, I'd pay him.
Also I didn't know anything about gay or straight characters, my generation was raised to embrace people for their differences and not slap lables on people.
I love Kaveh, I ship Kaveh and Alhaitham, if I wanted Navia I’d pull on her banner with hopes of Kaveh. It pisses me off with how the fandom treats Kaveh.
(Note, I am a lesbian, I am agender, I am not straight or cis. Along with that straight people finding a woman or man in queer relationships is somewhat homophobic because queer relationships aren’t like that at all. It’s why I have problems with the yoai and yuri genre, both have good things but as a lesbian who is also a minor, the way people treat yuri manga and anime relating to minors in some situations freaks me out. But that’s not the topic of this video)
Thx you for pointing this out.
Yaoi made for female (with internalize mysoginy) gaze always take the "wolf & cute little red hood" dynamic and just slaps one of the two role on the two men; making one of them "The daddy" and the other " the shota/loli".
Thats awful and thats why men are afraid to be feminine; because being feminine means being a child; as virility means to be an adult and that you deserves respect (hence why women are being looked down upon, bc they are seen as children lol). Thats awful and I hate it. I LOVE kavetham with all my heart (even thought they seem a bit toxic in game) but I ll never stop crying whenever I see any ship with the "wolf-daddy - little red hood shota/loli" dynamic because it justifies/supports mysoginia and p*dophilia with those unequal power dynamics 😅😅😅...
SAY IT LOUDER
It sucks when an entire ship just ruins the characters entire personality. Which is partly why shipping in general just gives me the ick lol
well it's only getting worse with the pyro archon looking like kaveh recolor (face) ppl are over excited , and personnally i dont ship any of these ships i see that hoyo encouraged alhaitham kaveh and i remember some player didnt like it bc of alhaitham inspiration being a sage character from a muslim culture i remember it was a mess and it will keep going , the genshin community IS WORSE THAN THE KPOP COMMUNITY it's just massive hate for fictional character to a point where you start to believe that PSYCHOLOGISTS were right ppl addicted to fiction and fictional characters tend to attribute feelings and consciousness to a fcitional character giving it feelings and rights and treating it same way as a living being , like they think X character can get it feeling hurt , and getting mad when the fictional character doesnt get it right like truely its crazy this is fiction none of these characters feel anything they are just ink on paper or 3D models on programs ppl should chill and play the game as a game and not as a religion or cult where you dedicate your time life and scrutinize every detail , play the game bc its relaxing and not to create problems , i am truely shocked by this fandom it remind me of evangelion fans drama sometimes the fans kill the game / anime by confusing reality and fiction , i think the devs and artists behind genshin will do whatever they feel is right for their game to keep existing and ppl should do the same with their lives keep living and dont get over addicted to fiction bc its gonna detach you from reality sooner or later loneliness and mental health are twosides or the same coin
I think furina and neuvilette could be a cute ship tho. I haven't seen the shippers stuff, but idk why you'd treat the depressed fewhundred years old fake god as a child just cuz she's with sum dragon.
1:08 where is this cutscene from?
It´s from the Parade of Providence 3.6 Event
After watching this as someone who enjoys Cyno × Tighnari and Alhaitham × Kaveh (but not as much as I used to - I distanced myself from the ship a bit kinda also due to how their ship was being portrayed), something I notice is how drastically the characters are interpreted in either ship.
With Cyno × Tighnari, there isn't really any dumbing down of either Cyno or Tighnari's characters from what I've seen. Both are still acknowledged to be good at what they do and a lot of their content features them kinda empowering each other to some degree. It's almost close to how their relationship is portrayed in-game.
For Alhaitham × Kaveh, I never really felt that same treatment was there. Most interpretations I saw were of Alhaitham being the smarter or stronger of the ship while Kaveh had been reduced to either Alhaitham's "wife" or his "boytoy". I wouldn't say everyone reduced him to that role, but it definitely was what I saw often. Some of their content can mirror Cynari in that they push each other to be their best, but I wouldn't say it does often.
I just think the shipping dynamics are interesting. Also not to say that Cyno × Tighnari also escapes some other tropes that are kinda smut-heavy in nature, but just going off of what I've generally noticed between the two major M/M Sumeru ships. Overall, this was a good video. Would definitely love to hear your thoughts about Furina's treatment too (because I adore her, but constantly seeing her mischaracterized kinda soured my look on her a bit sadly). (Sorry for the long comment haha - I didn't think I wrote that much!)
No problem, I loved reading your comment and I already made a video about Furina. Also, this is such a good point that I didn't realize even though I have seen it.
While Cyno and Tighnari are also misinterpreted at times, their intelligence is never really belittled just to make the other look better. I think the reason may be because Cyno and Tighnari are kind of at the same level of not being overtly masculine or feminine. They are just kinda in the middle leaning more towards masculine.
While Al-Haitham can be interpreted as overtly masculine and Kaveh overtly feminine which makes people reduce them to the stereotypes of their respective sides, if that makes sense.
Kaveh might be forgetful but hes not STUPID I've always hated this characterization, even without my relating hard to his character I HATE IT. He is the top of his field!! And works hard!!!! Also when it comes to furina I hate the infantilization because its so bad. Honestly Neuvillette have a more sibling dynamic in my mind :). Furina has acted as leader of a nation for centeries and has kept secrets from Neuvillette WHI:E BEING A HUMAN. He was outsmarted by the archon and human counter part of the hydro archon how is he the "smart, reliable one". Everything he did was meant to happen to make Fasalors (idk if I spelled that right) plan work.
I do love him btw he is a strong character but so is furina and I hate her being discredited by people for even the falsalors because Furina did work hard to run a nation and act a god for centuries while having the mind of a human being.
I have in my life never heard of Kaveh being called feminine, he's literally in the list of husbandos most female fans want. The more I watch the video the more it seems like its more a you problem and a few minorities within the fandom. Kaveh being dumb when he actually isn't, that I agree with, him being as smart as Alahitham... eh not really, they're both equally as smart
Husbando just means male character, feminine or not as long as it is a male character they will be considered a husbando, also it´s not uncommon for female fans to like or prefer feminine male characters, him being feminine doesn´t mean female fans won´t like him so I don´t really get what your point is :/
Kaveh being called feminine is/was pretty common, maybe it has become less but it is pretty common. It is just possible you've never come across it.
3:26 i'm so sorry but i have no idea what you said, what phase??
edit: did you say danmei???
Yep
as someone whos loved kavetham and just kaveh as a character for the longest time THANK YOUU i agree sm
like i haven't seen too many portrayals of him being weak and stupid bc i like to curate the spaces im in to specifically what i know i'll like, but when i do it grinds my gears sm, and makes me think the writer doesn't know much about the characters, and their knowledge on them is just based on a few character interactions and other fan material. which, isn't a bad thing, there's nothing wrong with that, its just personally so infuriating T-T i usually just avoid that typa stuff tbh
Kaveh is always will be my bbg. Just like Arlecchino is my daddy. Maybe stop complaining about everything
gurl i think ur on the wrong side of twitter
YESS! I see that babygirl princess dumb kaveh thing everywhere and it pissed me off so bad 😭😭‼️i love kaveh so much and even as a kavetham shipper i can see that hes super smart and behead me if this is wrong mehrak is HEAVY as hell and him carrying that in one hand is pretty impressive :> oh god and the daddy alhaitham thing yuck its everywhere 🙁 also headcanoning him bad with math is stupid hell as hell hes an architect he literally needs to do math in architecture
just by listening to you talk about what type of comments you've heard about kaveh, i can tell you're surrounded by the worst parts of the fandom... sorry for you girl. this is about to be a long comment so prepare. kaveh is my favourite character in the game and i think i have good comments to make here since i'm a walking kaveh-encyclopedia. funny enough, one of the reasons i completely left the genshin community (i still like watching vids like this one tho) was the way kaveh was treated by the masses. it was absolutely ridiculous, the term ''babygirl'' is now repulsing me like crazy. what i have to say however is that there was a small community of people who analysed kaveh the way he is and didn't mischaracterise anything about him, even in the ship with alhaitham. if anything, one of the best headcanons for kaveh i've heard have came from kavetham shipping accounts (important to say i'm talking about kavetham NOT haikaveh. the ladder is the reason why the masses treat kaveh as a woman and as a dumb blonde. i've never vibed with the bottom aligations neither but anaywayyyy). if you wanna enjoy some kaveh content go to these accounts, leave that haikaveh BS and don't turn back. this has to be one of the biggest Ls for this braindead community - loving a mischaracterised version of a character but not getting to know the actual character who deserves to be loved the way he is.
LAST THING, kaveh is not an ultimate feminine character. i know, shockers, but that's the truth. he balances masculine energy with feminine energy a healthy amount. being an architect is not a feminine job. neither is welding a claymore, nor being able to go on heavy expeditions in the desert, engineering, ect. art is not a ''girly only thing'' either like, name the most famous painters?? see, him being pretty, flamboyant vibe, not having a buff body and ... looking like his mom.. lol.. are not what his whole character is about. again, i really recommend getting into his own lore and the kavetham side of the shippers. not saying they're like saints but i promise you you won't see either alh nor kaveh being drawn as a girl.
srry for the long-ass comment, i hope this was informative ❤ (leave the GI fandom for a better life lolz)🧡
Agree 100%. I’m not a Kaveh fan but I do like him and seeing people portray him as stereotyped bottom is just infuriating. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but the way I see Kaveh is he’s prioritizing emotions rather than logic just like how women are more emotional and men are more logical. But does that make him a woman? no. He likes art, I believe he likes fashion too, does that also make him a woman? Ofc no. He has feminine features so he must be woman right? Hell no. He just has a feminine part but people saw it and treated him like he’s a femboy or smth. Portraying him as dumb also made me lose it. Kaveh is an intelligent man but his high empathy and sympathy what’s make him look naive. Like I said he’s just prioritizing emotion rather logic. Just like one of Sumeru's events where he already walked halfway through the desert but decided to help a group of animals (idk what they’re called) to go back to safety, or when he let Faruzan won, or even when he gave limited TCG to Cyno for free. He just wants to see people happy and that’s enough for him. I think it’s good to have Kaveh as a friend or a partner since he has a good understanding of emotional feelings and able to make the other feel comfortable mentally and emotionally. Logic is also important but I think emotions are also important as well, too emphatic makes you look naive, and being too logical makes you seem heartless.
Sorry for my bad grammar and poor choice of words.
the fandom really ruined haikaveh in such a way, both being completely warped of their amazing personalities and how they complement each others... to fit into that passive-active stupidity. People need to go out into the streets, they cannot conceive of a homosexual relationship that does not follow the same personality archetype.
THANKKKKKKK YOUUUU for saying all this. I enjoy Kaveh’s REAL personality, he’s someone with a thirst for beauty and a search for philosophical things. I think what Mihoyo was going for was more of the “starved artist” trope with a twist ya know, but crazy people decided he was some uwu little baby girl. I always feel weird about it, I love his character but people are just so annoying about it. I love that we finally got a slightly more REALISTICALLY feminine man, but ofc it was ruined because feminine man = himbo bimbo uwu or something along those lines. Anyway, thank youuuuuu, I’ve been wishing someone would talk about this for so long lmao.
ATE
I AM SO HAPPY TO LISTEN TO THIS YOU HAVE NO IDEA. I'm personally a big Kaveh fan and am kind of meh on Alhaitham (no judgement to people who like the latter tho or the ship, of course!) and I have been getting increasingly irritated by this in the fandom, both with "feminine" male characters and female characters overall. Yes, Kaveh can be overly sentimental, he can let his feelings get in the way of his logical judgement, but he's not "stupid" or weak, he's just different from his more strict counterpart.
I've had a mini essay of my own comparing how Alhaitham vs Nilou are treated by fans, with one being seen as important and smart and the other as vapid and "waifu material" despite both having similar roles and importance in the story, along with other characters from other media it applies to. The sad part is, as you said, a lot of this is done by women in the fandom. I think it comes from a desire to have better representation of women, but it backfires because people assume "femininity=weak" rather than understanding the traits aren't inherently tied to a character being deep or interesting or strong. Good work, and thank you! :>
Oh, yes I love this kind of content.
I love Kaveh, he’s one of my favorite characters, to the point where I pulled for Nilou (I don’t really like her that much xD, but no regrets) so I can build him properly.
Kaveh is such a realistic and relatable character. He’s a people pleaser, idealistic, deals with tons of disappointment and stress and often has no one to turn to. And he still keeps going, trying to follow his passion.
Yea hes naive, but he’s still a functioning person, and not a little baby who needs someone to protect him from all the hardships in the world.
For me, I don’t mind Kaveh x Alhaitham, I like them both and they fit well together, but oh my archon, the fanbase is rotten. Like don’t turn well written characters into Yaoi (the true meaning of Yaoi is; no tension, no punchline, no meaning; so basically p0rn without plot).
It’s one of the few ships that actually make sense, so it’s such a shame that the fandom ruins it. I don’t like most of their fanart and other content, tbh.
And don’t get me started on how they mischaracterize them-
Kaveh isn’t weak or dumb, and he certainly has a higher emotional intelligence and probably a higher IQ than Alhaitham.
Alright, as for Furina, well gotta say, she is of the best written characters in the game and I certainly like her. But I never thought of shipping her with someone. She’s perfectly fine without a romantic partner. And I don’t see why one should force ships. Same goes for Neuvillette and the other archons (maybe Zhongli can be shipped with Guizhong). It’s difficult to ship gods with mortals or other creatures who doesn’t have the same mentality as them.
Well it was a fun video, you earned a sub :)
I find Alhaitham really as bad person. Personally i would hate him, he is too nerdy and emotionaless, i was so mad to him when he treated Kaveh that way in event, tho people say thay he tried to distract Kaveh. Also about jokes Kaveh bring girly, i find them funny if this is going to stay as joke only, because Kaveh is alredy strong character, he still tried to hold himself in event after being spinned and having bad flight, also he still trying to overcome his trauma, tho he doesn't need to be manly man daddy alpha aah guy, but just himself. Also i want to characters loving and trying to help him more tbh🥲
😨.... not gonna lie i had no clue people mischaracterized him like this damn 😭 i swear there was someone else who was mischaracterized like this in the 1.x or 2.x patches. zhongli? childe? venti? idk but this has happened before for sure and it sucks that players cant comprehend that the characters in the game arent as stupid as them /hj
“This happens when straight people fetishise homosexual ships” LITERALLY YES. I’ve seen it so many times and it’s made me hate so so many ships, I’m not homophobic for hating the way a ship is portrayed pls I’m literally bi myself, but it’s insane how toxic some gay ships are made just for the sake of “babygirl” or whatever bro
Hello asabi.
hello :]
Honestly, I don't like Kaveh the slightest, but for me it is all Alhaitham's fault.
It's hard for Kaveh to keep his mental health while he dates Genshin's Sheldon Cooper.
And I can say that, I mean, I DO like Alhaitham, but he clearly is too dismissive to Kaveh's feelings more than 50% and I am being generous.