Texas crouching hurtbox in TFH. Also giving big bodies unique movement that is more conventionally good rather than gimmicky (Raiden in kofxiii had arguably the best jump, MVC2 Sentinel flight, and Nago fukyo). Pot would be on that list if they made hfb better in Strive like how it is in accent core. I'm salty and the boy needs buffs while we nerf wwa.
Your video doesn't apply to Tekken at all, because it's so footsie and wiff punish focused. Being big means a bigger backdash cancel(faster) and having longer range launchers, jack 7 dominated for years in tournaments and he's actually a poke character.
@@AsshatRSA i think you have just said what made Jack-7 so good. Poking. LK mentioned faster normals. Well what does Jack 7 have? Some really fast buttons and long reach that can condition an opponent to give him time to pull off a Jackhammer or some other potent move he has.
Most things that make big bodies bad in 2D fighters are non issues in 3D fighters anyway. No fireball zoning and no jump-ins and mostly universal movement. Limb size matters more. Only downside to big bodies may be a poor sidestep due to being a chonker (doesn't apply to VF style sidestep)
Tekken’s King is definitely a benefactor of the big body trust fund. He currently has multiple armored moves he doesn’t have to commit to and powerful, fast counter hit moves on top of the best throw game.
In ACR, Potemkin is sitting pretty confortably in mid tier. His tools are still crazy, he just doesn't have the loopable unblockable or the universal pickup from slidehead otg. Potemkin Buster being 3f no counterhit recovery while crushing low will terrorize anybody in the right conditions, and he was the model of " How to make slow big body work " for everyone else past him. Slidehead and Flick are the defining moves of modern big body philosophy afterall.
Everyone says they want more big body characters represented, but every time a big body has a ghost of a chance, people change face. I honestly think they are included in (new game) rosters just because everyone expects one. All the system mechanics are like "GOGOGO SURELY I WILL WIN BECAUSE MY SPEED IS SUPERIOR" but still bother to develop a character that just goes against everything they developed. Almost like a big body character must suffer in order for a game to release lmao.
I'm kinda shocked you didn't talk about SF5 Abigail. He's pretty bad now, but there was awhile where he was the single most reviled character in the game period. He had everything, big fast buttons, high hp, absurd risk/reward on just about everything he does, he was a menace. Also gotta shout out the original garbage heavy, GG Missing Link Potemkin. To be fair, this guy is so flawed that even if you shrunk him to a quarter of his size, he'd still be utter garbage. He had ALL the big body weaknesses, and didn't really have any of the strengths either. Almost his entire kit is unsafe on hit, let alone block. He had no movement options, basically no combos in a game where nearly the entire cast has infinites, minimal defensive options, it was a bad time all around.
GGACR Pot main here! Most people now a days generally place potemkin around mid to low mid tier. He has a good few differences from Vanilla AC like no more OTGS from slidehead causing such easy unlockables (he still has unblockable setups with slidehead, but they're nowhere near as obnoxious as they are in vanilla and every character (TMK) has an escape in the form of backdash), no more frc on regular pot buster (it's now placed on Air pot buster which is a force break) and a few smaller adjustments like no gatlings off of his old 6K overhead etc. In my opinion +R pot is easily my favorite version of potemkin and the version of the character I have the most fun with! While I'm by no means a top level player, I think a really big part of why potemkin is so solid in +R is because of primarily two things: One his terrifyingly strong okizeme, and two, his reward. Potemkins okizeme isn't as varied as some other characters, but what makes it so potent is how strong each option is, he has an 18f overhead in 6k as well as 5K which is a standing low like in later games, pair this with tick grab setups and potemkin has obscenely strong oki, and all of these options lead to combos that end with hard knockdowns. Speaking of, potemkins reward in +R and to a greater extent Vanilla AC is the best its ever been in any guilty gear, so much of potemkins options reward a knockdown that it means that he can very easily loop his okizeme and grappler mix without having to be in the corner like it is in a game like Xrd. Probably the best examples being heat knuckle dropping the opponent at pots feet so that he can move up way more easily, as well as things like his 2D being special cancelable allowing him to close the gap with a hammerfall break after hitting the opponent, and things like pot having a vacuum effect on 2S giving him much stronger conversions that he doesn't have in later titles. On top of that potemkin still has obscenely high damage, meaning as long as he has the right resources many of his combos can do easily upwards of 60-80% health, with some combo starters effectively being a round ender depending on the character and (again) the resources. I think it's all these things that make him such a solid character, I hope that I get to see a version of potemkin that's as fun as he is in +R come back, since nothing else has cut it for me LOL. P.S. Sorry if this reply is a bit long btw :P
Potemkin was likely the single most influential big body character after Gief himself. The amount of tools that were spearheaded by Pot that you see in other games is absurd. Drink everytime a big body has a variant of Hammerfall.
Nah not rly. Lets be real. Super command grabs are hype because you usually need a soul read to hit them but shit like pot buster is regular strike throw but the throw does 40% and cant be teched
@@KingKayEyeDeeyou say that but most grappler is bad;ecample sf6 they get oki only from throw yet they can't strike throw,meanwhile other character can get crouching medium kick drive rush and oki from corner carry combos
@@tilting_cat3344 I said Pot Buster not heavenly. Also that logic is pretty dumb (no disrespect). If you don't jump and get pot bustered, own damn fault, if you jump and get DP'd or Heavenlied, own damn fault, if you backdash and get hit by sweep, own damn fault. If you tether him. . . Actually no if you tether potemkin you deserve what comes next (I've learned the hard way)
And then there's MvC2's Sentinel, the big body who didn't play like a big body (and dominated that game because of it). I love huge characters but it's interesting how few of them are zoners.
Another thing I've noticed is that in certain older games, the big bodies had restrictive cancel routes or huge recovery on most of their moves... which meant they had bad combos, which meant they had bad damage, which meant they don't even get the BENEFITS of being a big body. Also, I've wanted to mention this for a while but didn't have a spot so I'll talk about him here: Earthquake form Samurai Shodown (2019). Is he a big body? In the literal sense, yes, but "Big Body" in this context describes a mechanical character archetype that he DOESN'T fit into. Is he large? Yes, absolutely. But big bodies are also slow and hit really hard, neither of which describe Earthquake. He has a slow run speed, but he has all the mobility options of the "ninja" characters, those being wall jumps and teleports. They're worse than normal, but he HAS them, and that makes his mobility at least average. Damage? Well, his big "SamSho Button" has damage dependent on distance as it's a multi-hit move. The first hit even has fast startup for a heavy so it's not even slow. The only metric by which Earthquake is a "Big Body" is his size, and I think that's really interesting!
Especially for Skullgirls. Big Band? Slip up and he’s just armoring or parrying through your shit to delete 50% from your health with just two bars of meter even in 3v3. Cerebella? A combo of mobility and armor that can play some mind games with her command grabs. Beowulf? Less armor, but have fun keeping a good one out of your face with how fast he can close the gap Eliza? You have to get to HER. Not the other way around. Same for Black Dahlia only once you get to her, you now have to deal with her counter and that she may already have a bomb attached you or an assist limiting what you can just throw out.
You can add Virtua Fighter 5 to that list, as the big bodies are generally hard to combo (lower launch height) and to ring out and the heaviest character in the game is like top 3
11:09 potemkin is pretty solid in plus r. He doesn't have that unblockable loop, but he still has solid anti zoning tools, like flick, and pretty good pressure on knockdown, with his overhead low mixup, vacuum on crouching slash, heat knuckle withouth extend leaving the oponnent close, etc I say for me one of the better ways to make a grappler good, is just helping them keep the pressure up close, once they get it. Like for example Abel in street fighter 4 had a step kick that he could dash cancel, helping him close distance, and keep pressure even outside point blank range. Xrd Potemkin in the other hand, had heat knuckle send the opponet full screen, even without extend, so he had to slowly get in *again*
One thing I actually have never understood is the need to make grapplers and big bodies have little to no defense. Like, the point of them having high Hp and damage is because they must conquer their space to the enemy, and profit from it. That much is clear. But when they are being mauled in a corner, they usually can do almost nothing to stop it, and it becomes a one-player game, which is not the reason of their high Hp. I am not asking to give a combo-able counter or a Strive Sol's DP, but something that allows a "get off me" not hidden behind a resource system, and even this is often denied (Strive Pot had one, was removed and left with nothing for almost two years, got a new one -WWA-, and people are already crying out to remove this one too). And when I ask or read about it, its some sort of obvious, fundamental thing that no one explains in the end. So, why is that?
Thing is they do have good defense but not up close and even up close they present big threat if your offense is not clean. Just as they have to get in on you, you have to get in on them due to big buttons they usually have and that is the main trade off(you can't have it all right ?). Asking for good get off me defense is similar idea to giving zoner the same, it is just counter productive. If grappler puts you in messed up situation then your mistake is made before hand and same is true if you manage to get in on them. HP and dmage is big part of defense that is main reason why pot just takes a dump on millia or chipp for example who are supposed to typically eat grapplers for lunch.(not in gg but as archetype match up)
This is only a guess, so take it with a grain of salt, but Grapplers can't have invincible reversals entirely because of RPS on wake-up, being unable to have any kind of truly safe offense against them that isn't "run back to neutral". Typically the response to an invincible reversal is to block on the opponent's wake-up, which can usually be mixed in with a shimmy to catch normal throws. Blocking on the opponent's wake-up also is extremely safe in exchange for having very little reward if you don't get the read on the reversal. The problem comes in against a grappler, because grapplers can beat someone trying to block on your wake-up. You can't really shimmy a character with Gief's grab range, so in general the 'safe' option against grapplers is to go for meaties since they don't have reversals. Essentially, if a grappler had an invincible reversal then the player on offense would be forced into a guessing game every time they knock the grappler down. If you go for meaty buttons you lose to reversal, if you go for blocking their wake-up then you lose to wake up command grab. The only safe option is to back off completely and go back to neutral. They'd feel EXTREMELY BAD to play against.
Thing is they kinda used to. Pretty much up until the SFV era command grabs themselves had some decent defensive utility. In SF4 SPD was 2 frames, and throws had priority over strikes. Basically this meant if you left even a 1 frame gap in your pressure you'd get scooped, even though grabs weren't actually invincible. Pot Buster was also much faster, and actually had a frame of invul. You could IB PB tons of strings if you're opponents weren't careful. But nowadays command grabs are slower and more damaging, so they don't really have any utility in modern games. Waldstein from Under Night is an exception, his 360A is 3 frames so it isn't that hard to shield and interrupt strings with it. But shielding carries a lot more risk in UNI2, so it's still somewhat rare to see normal SPD used defensively.
SNK does what no one else dares to when it comes to grapplers. At times they have amazing defense. Most grapplers in KoF come with a command throw with full invul and a command throw with 1 start-up frame. The extended range on command throws mean they can punish things on block that other archetypes can't. Some grapplers also have parry grabs. Are these grapplers top tier then? Well, in KoF even non-grapplers have command throws at times (albeit neither with 1 frame startup, nor invul). Also jump arcs are very important in that game and that's where they fall off a little. Even so, KoF as a series has seen a fair amount of top tier grapplers and quite often, the bottom tiers are anything but grapplers
Oh man, the recent CEO Guilty Gear Strive tournament which has the Pot player, was so much fun to watch. Even when he lost to tempest, us matches were entertaining.
An example I can think of is making more things universal. Universal jumpsquats in ssbu and universal 4 frames in sf6 come to mind. Big characters used to suffer in these very general areas.
@paulakroy2635 I can definitely see that argument. From my experience it does slightly lessen character variety, but the increased functionality and viability it can lead to is worthwhile if the characters are different otherwise imo.
@@paulakroy2635idk I think 4 frame jab in street fighter is a great example. It’s stupid to have moves safe on some characters but not on others (for reasons besides spacing)
This video could have been titled "How KoF made their big bodies and grapplers viable." No f-shiki. Juggle hurtboxes the same for everyone. Full screen lows. Armor that works. Good normals. Armored or Invulnerable grabs. Yep, all present across the kof big boys and girls.
I hate playing against big bodies with command grabs, cause 50/50 for dear life feels like hell. But I love watching someone else go through that hell, the struggle is entertaining to a hilarious degree.
Then you have Virtua fighter 5 where Big Bodies have the highly advantageous "heavy weight class" meaning you can't juggle them high enough for many combo routes and they're much harder to ring out. Oh, but you bet they can combo and ring out lighter characters with ease
Speaking of Big Bodies, and your awesome Anakaris Vampire Savior video in the past... explaining those type of old school games. Have you ever looked into that sort of- Hyper-esque Darkstalkers version of DS3/VS1/VS2/VH2 game on the Dreamcast called Vampire Chronicle for Matching Service which the PSP Chaos Tower is originally based from? Very interesting version, it is now with rollback on Fightcade 2 and Nulldc Bear. Would love to hear a dissection of that special version of the game... the improvements that it brings and the pseudo (not so faithful but interesting) play modes such as being able to play a Vampire, Hunter, Savior & Savior 2 style of any character... and modes like Vampire, Hunter & Savior that define meter system and round system format. There's even funky stuff like Hunter version of BB Hood (which doesn't actually exist in Hunter) is a motion character instead of charge.... very interesting stuff. Game still plays like a VS1/VS2 game with the same turbo speed you would expect from VS1/VS2 and it's not entirely faithful to their respective games when you see style of choices... take it more of an inspiration and kinda restoring some aspects like original input of movelists if they have changed or... things like Dimitri's Hunter/Vampire Fireball returning to what it was in Hunter/Vampire. Dashes also change too... like Hsienko having a regular dash under Vampire mode, instead of her slow disappearing in and out dashes. There's even some 2017 local tourneys of this game in recent times, that even the likes of MikeZ have played in person. Feel like it would be an interesting dive in for a retro fighting game video... Vampire Chronicle for Matching Service, Hyper Street Fighter 2, or even the likes of Darkstalkers Vampire Savior 1 Arrange with Dee and every character under mostly VS1 based balancing & mechanics with the right balancing dipswitches on from the Vampire Darkstalkers PS2 Collection and Hyper Street Fighter Alpha from the Anthology PS2 Collection... It felt like it was the MKX variation system before variation systems were even a thing. Here's some reference links: ruclips.net/video/0yFNEZGOtTM/видео.html ruclips.net/video/5e3KEzQARoY/видео.html
I think that, for a long time, they thought that huge grab damage, on a really low skill opponent, was seen as bad or against the casual player. That is one of the only reasons I can think of why it lasted this long. Grabs were also seen as cheap in the reallll old days.
I think the issue is somewhat indirect. Most devs have decided that aggression should be rewarded. This works great for rushdown and even for Zoning, as system mechanics focused on canceling and converting can be great for long range pressure. But it puts Grappler/Turtle characters in an awkward position. They're inherently defensive so they can't be too good or else it will encourage reactive rather than proactive play. I think this is what's hurting the Big Boys the most, what was once their main selling point, strong defense, is often intentionally nerfed. Potemkin and Zangief used to be able to use their grabs defensively, to the point where even madmen like Kazunoko would slow down and keep a safe distance. Now people usually think of Grapplers as weak defensively. This focus on offense also means devs usually don't design more than one explicit Grappler so turtling is a lot more limited on a meta level. Waldstein is actually pretty strong in UNI2, his grabs work fine defensively and the new system mechanics make turtling better compared to previous versions. But there are like 20 other characters with more on the way, all with different pressure tools to account for. Meanwhile they only have to practice cracking Wald, maybe Enkidu and Akatsuki on a stretch. I'm hoping Ogre will be the T. Hawk to Walds Zangief, but I won't hold my breath.
Bring back the Arcsys Grappler Backdash! (context: In many arcsys games, grapplers and other big bodies get an absurd number of I-frames on their back dash. Like 20 frames of invul or something.)
But then you knock them down to their advantage, no? They can command throw your bait (even if you move out of regular throw range) and they can reversal everything else then. A good parry is fair game though
dlanor from the umineko fighter can just summon a barrier that blocks all projectiles and walk at you with it up. Also her offense is ridiculous for a variety of reasons.
even in GGST Giovanna previously had an infinite against standing potemkin where she could go 66 5K > J.S > J.H > J.D > 66 5K ... over and over (until the wall breaks :P)
Speaking of latin queens Doesn't Gio still have that rejump loop on big bodies? Also interesting to note differences between big bodies and grapplers, they're not always the same thing, eg Marisa.
It is a mixup, if they block the move high (which is confirmable by Slayer), he can do a high/low that Pot can't respond to unless they do deflect shield. The black beat is there to say Pot could have blocked (and that he was in guard crush state). You should notice that Pot is still standing, even though he is blocking low.
@@LordKnightfgcI think I understand it now, I had to google it. The blockstun keeps his hitboxes high so when he blocks low he still gets hit because of the stun and the way animations work.
I like Shiffon from daemon bride, she's a full screen zoner who in addition to covering the screen in projectiles has traps and heavy normals that cover the entire known universe, but when you get through all her bullshit she goes surprise I'm a grappler and hits you with an ex command grab that puts your ass back in the opposite corner, great character design, not at all frustrating to deal with.
I may not play Smash competitively anymore but I'm always rooting for my boy K Rool. He's so much fun to play (though I'm like one of three people who think he's better than bottom tier, it seems) especially since he got a ton of stuff other heavies in smash typically don't have.
Someone mentioned King already but Marduk in Tekken 7 was also an absolute menace, and lately, Jack-8 has been buffed so much a lot of people consider him a top tier.
I think that both Capcom and ArcSys have traditionally hated letting big bodies be strong. I think grapplers have thrived more often in SNK games in the previous eras. Capcom only let a big body be good on accident with Sentinel in Marvel 2. He had all the traditional big body weaknesses, but because of unintended behaviors he was one of the highest mobility characters instead of the lowest. In addition he had many of the things you note from this video, full screen tools that are threatening with full screen damage into super. He also had advantage in the war of attrition with the combination of big body highest health status, while doing really well in trades and also at accruing chip over time. Instead of being the character that needed to get in, in the majority of matchups other characters needed to get in on him. I think that another thing which allows grapplers to be pushed in the current meta for games is that there's a stronger push toward offense with mechanics that let characters get closer together more easily on both sides. For characters that want to interact closer together this is beneficial and it serves the big bodies. There's also an aversion to certain types of strong zoning existing and more tools universally to get through it, so one of the primary weaknesses of having an oversized hurtbox in that it's hard to get around things is often less impactful than it previously was.
I think people said kragg is high tier in rivals of aether but most people say to me that tier lists are so fake in that game except for the top 8 characters
Could you make a guide on the ninja (chipp?) from guilty gear? Plz. I bought gg and want too make him my main but it is a bit too much. Could you help?
There’s probably already good guides out there from people with more Chipp-specific experience. Also I highly recommend the Dustloop wiki if you want to learn more about how to play a character in Strive.
I think SNK and many airdashers are better than some of their more grounded counterparts at adding to the utility of the big bodies over flattening their balance to lack of mobility and high single hit damage. I'd love if more took what is inherently unique about the characters and made those the malleable points. I think it'd be neat to take the weakness of the big hurtbox and instead had it so they were a stance character that could alter that big weakness with skill.
The word fuzzy is extremely confused and messy in the english speaking FGC. The term got used for a few different things with no regard to clarity for years. The correct term for this specific tech here is f-shiki , based on a Venom player named F back in old Gear that invented/ popularized it.
Non grappler big bodies are in a really good spot rn and its friggin awesome, even grapplers are doing good like pot sitting in mid tier and gief sitting in mid - high tier
Turns out having strong universal mechanics and then not taking them away from the big bodies helps a lot. Then having their damage at the absurd levels is enough to matter.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned SFV Laura. She was an absolute menance, and that was before iDom got his hands on her. He kind of changed everything after that.
@@webbowser8834 Yeah, you're right. In my mind, "Big bodies" and Grapplers are the same, but in reality that's not always case. Abigail and Birdie woulda been the big bodies, and they were beasts too.
@@Count_Virgil Oh yeah, the two are absolutely big bodies. Birdie is arguably a grappler too, though Abigail is firmly in the Juggernaut style of big body.
What ways have you noticed that they have buffed big bodies in other games?
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Texas crouching hurtbox in TFH. Also giving big bodies unique movement that is more conventionally good rather than gimmicky (Raiden in kofxiii had arguably the best jump, MVC2 Sentinel flight, and Nago fukyo). Pot would be on that list if they made hfb better in Strive like how it is in accent core. I'm salty and the boy needs buffs while we nerf wwa.
Haggar in umvc3 has all the weakness but also lariat
Your video doesn't apply to Tekken at all, because it's so footsie and wiff punish focused. Being big means a bigger backdash cancel(faster) and having longer range launchers, jack 7 dominated for years in tournaments and he's actually a poke character.
@@AsshatRSA i think you have just said what made Jack-7 so good. Poking. LK mentioned faster normals. Well what does Jack 7 have? Some really fast buttons and long reach that can condition an opponent to give him time to pull off a Jackhammer or some other potent move he has.
Most things that make big bodies bad in 2D fighters are non issues in 3D fighters anyway. No fireball zoning and no jump-ins and mostly universal movement. Limb size matters more. Only downside to big bodies may be a poor sidestep due to being a chonker (doesn't apply to VF style sidestep)
I read the title as Big Booty Characters and thought LK had lost it.
I was about to comment this exact thing
nah ur right. GL & Honda got it.
petition for LK to make this video
@@niccpolitic6129 And who could forget the greatest ass in fighting games: Victor Darkstalkers.
Big Booty Characters have always been god tier.
'gief stocks are on the rise in sf6 too!
EPIC!
Tekken’s King is definitely a benefactor of the big body trust fund. He currently has multiple armored moves he doesn’t have to commit to and powerful, fast counter hit moves on top of the best throw game.
Fuck gigas, a literal big body I guess
@@manuelito1233Gigas was consistently bad but in the same game, Jack was really strong for a long time.
@@manuelito1233gigas is ass, we're talking about big body characters that are good
In ACR, Potemkin is sitting pretty confortably in mid tier. His tools are still crazy, he just doesn't have the loopable unblockable or the universal pickup from slidehead otg.
Potemkin Buster being 3f no counterhit recovery while crushing low will terrorize anybody in the right conditions, and he was the model of " How to make slow big body work " for everyone else past him.
Slidehead and Flick are the defining moves of modern big body philosophy afterall.
Everyone says they want more big body characters represented, but every time a big body has a ghost of a chance, people change face.
I honestly think they are included in (new game) rosters just because everyone expects one. All the system mechanics are like "GOGOGO SURELY I WILL WIN BECAUSE MY SPEED IS SUPERIOR" but still bother to develop a character that just goes against everything they developed. Almost like a big body character must suffer in order for a game to release lmao.
I'm kinda shocked you didn't talk about SF5 Abigail. He's pretty bad now, but there was awhile where he was the single most reviled character in the game period. He had everything, big fast buttons, high hp, absurd risk/reward on just about everything he does, he was a menace.
Also gotta shout out the original garbage heavy, GG Missing Link Potemkin. To be fair, this guy is so flawed that even if you shrunk him to a quarter of his size, he'd still be utter garbage. He had ALL the big body weaknesses, and didn't really have any of the strengths either. Almost his entire kit is unsafe on hit, let alone block. He had no movement options, basically no combos in a game where nearly the entire cast has infinites, minimal defensive options, it was a bad time all around.
GGACR Pot main here! Most people now a days generally place potemkin around mid to low mid tier. He has a good few differences from Vanilla AC like no more OTGS from slidehead causing such easy unlockables (he still has unblockable setups with slidehead, but they're nowhere near as obnoxious as they are in vanilla and every character (TMK) has an escape in the form of backdash), no more frc on regular pot buster (it's now placed on Air pot buster which is a force break) and a few smaller adjustments like no gatlings off of his old 6K overhead etc. In my opinion +R pot is easily my favorite version of potemkin and the version of the character I have the most fun with!
While I'm by no means a top level player, I think a really big part of why potemkin is so solid in +R is because of primarily two things: One his terrifyingly strong okizeme, and two, his reward. Potemkins okizeme isn't as varied as some other characters, but what makes it so potent is how strong each option is, he has an 18f overhead in 6k as well as 5K which is a standing low like in later games, pair this with tick grab setups and potemkin has obscenely strong oki, and all of these options lead to combos that end with hard knockdowns. Speaking of, potemkins reward in +R and to a greater extent Vanilla AC is the best its ever been in any guilty gear, so much of potemkins options reward a knockdown that it means that he can very easily loop his okizeme and grappler mix without having to be in the corner like it is in a game like Xrd. Probably the best examples being heat knuckle dropping the opponent at pots feet so that he can move up way more easily, as well as things like his 2D being special cancelable allowing him to close the gap with a hammerfall break after hitting the opponent, and things like pot having a vacuum effect on 2S giving him much stronger conversions that he doesn't have in later titles. On top of that potemkin still has obscenely high damage, meaning as long as he has the right resources many of his combos can do easily upwards of 60-80% health, with some combo starters effectively being a round ender depending on the character and (again) the resources. I think it's all these things that make him such a solid character, I hope that I get to see a version of potemkin that's as fun as he is in +R come back, since nothing else has cut it for me LOL.
P.S.
Sorry if this reply is a bit long btw :P
Potemkin was likely the single most influential big body character after Gief himself. The amount of tools that were spearheaded by Pot that you see in other games is absurd. Drink everytime a big body has a variant of Hammerfall.
It's like devs realized that watching someone getting hit by a powerful command grab is actually a hype moment in a tournament :p
Nah not rly. Lets be real. Super command grabs are hype because you usually need a soul read to hit them but shit like pot buster is regular strike throw but the throw does 40% and cant be teched
@@KingKayEyeDeeyou say that but most grappler is bad;ecample sf6 they get oki only from throw yet they can't strike throw,meanwhile other character can get crouching medium kick drive rush and oki from corner carry combos
@@tilting_cat3344IDK have you seen the glue eaters or Guilty Gear players whenever there's a Pot Buster. They eat that shit up
@@CantHandleThis6 if they jump vs potemkin it's their own damn fault
@@tilting_cat3344 I said Pot Buster not heavenly. Also that logic is pretty dumb (no disrespect). If you don't jump and get pot bustered, own damn fault, if you jump and get DP'd or Heavenlied, own damn fault, if you backdash and get hit by sweep, own damn fault. If you tether him. . . Actually no if you tether potemkin you deserve what comes next (I've learned the hard way)
And then there's MvC2's Sentinel, the big body who didn't play like a big body (and dominated that game because of it).
I love huge characters but it's interesting how few of them are zoners.
+R Justice is another cool example of super slow big body zoner. Although she's somehow a lightweight character in that game, for reasons lol.
@@Nooctae Good example. I forgot about her. I didn't know that she was counted as a lightweight though. Classic Wild Balance right there lol
Another thing I've noticed is that in certain older games, the big bodies had restrictive cancel routes or huge recovery on most of their moves... which meant they had bad combos, which meant they had bad damage, which meant they don't even get the BENEFITS of being a big body.
Also, I've wanted to mention this for a while but didn't have a spot so I'll talk about him here: Earthquake form Samurai Shodown (2019). Is he a big body? In the literal sense, yes, but "Big Body" in this context describes a mechanical character archetype that he DOESN'T fit into.
Is he large? Yes, absolutely. But big bodies are also slow and hit really hard, neither of which describe Earthquake. He has a slow run speed, but he has all the mobility options of the "ninja" characters, those being wall jumps and teleports. They're worse than normal, but he HAS them, and that makes his mobility at least average.
Damage? Well, his big "SamSho Button" has damage dependent on distance as it's a multi-hit move. The first hit even has fast startup for a heavy so it's not even slow. The only metric by which Earthquake is a "Big Body" is his size, and I think that's really interesting!
If you play SNK, Skullgirls, or Them's fighten herds. You are feasting good with the big bodies. Also MVC somewhat.
Especially for Skullgirls. Big Band? Slip up and he’s just armoring or parrying through your shit to delete 50% from your health with just two bars of meter even in 3v3.
Cerebella? A combo of mobility and armor that can play some mind games with her command grabs.
Beowulf? Less armor, but have fun keeping a good one out of your face with how fast he can close the gap
Eliza? You have to get to HER. Not the other way around. Same for Black Dahlia only once you get to her, you now have to deal with her counter and that she may already have a bomb attached you or an assist limiting what you can just throw out.
You can add Virtua Fighter 5 to that list, as the big bodies are generally hard to combo (lower launch height) and to ring out and the heaviest character in the game is like top 3
Oh god Strive Pot 2P is frame 8, no wonder players wanted 5P to hit crouchers so bad.
11:09 potemkin is pretty solid in plus r. He doesn't have that unblockable loop, but he still has solid anti zoning tools, like flick, and pretty good pressure on knockdown, with his overhead low mixup, vacuum on crouching slash, heat knuckle withouth extend leaving the oponnent close, etc
I say for me one of the better ways to make a grappler good, is just helping them keep the pressure up close, once they get it. Like for example Abel in street fighter 4 had a step kick that he could dash cancel, helping him close distance, and keep pressure even outside point blank range. Xrd Potemkin in the other hand, had heat knuckle send the opponet full screen, even without extend, so he had to slowly get in *again*
Nago and goldlewis moment
I love being able to obliterate my opponents like feeding paper into a paper shredder after landing a surprise beyblade in neutral
0:27 I also have the issue of being too big where I can't get in.
One thing I actually have never understood is the need to make grapplers and big bodies have little to no defense.
Like, the point of them having high Hp and damage is because they must conquer their space to the enemy, and profit from it. That much is clear.
But when they are being mauled in a corner, they usually can do almost nothing to stop it, and it becomes a one-player game, which is not the reason of their high Hp.
I am not asking to give a combo-able counter or a Strive Sol's DP, but something that allows a "get off me" not hidden behind a resource system, and even this is often denied (Strive Pot had one, was removed and left with nothing for almost two years, got a new one -WWA-, and people are already crying out to remove this one too).
And when I ask or read about it, its some sort of obvious, fundamental thing that no one explains in the end.
So, why is that?
Thing is they do have good defense but not up close and even up close they present big threat if your offense is not clean. Just as they have to get in on you, you have to get in on them due to big buttons they usually have and that is the main trade off(you can't have it all right ?). Asking for good get off me defense is similar idea to giving zoner the same, it is just counter productive. If grappler puts you in messed up situation then your mistake is made before hand and same is true if you manage to get in on them.
HP and dmage is big part of defense that is main reason why pot just takes a dump on millia or chipp for example who are supposed to typically eat grapplers for lunch.(not in gg but as archetype match up)
This is only a guess, so take it with a grain of salt, but Grapplers can't have invincible reversals entirely because of RPS on wake-up, being unable to have any kind of truly safe offense against them that isn't "run back to neutral".
Typically the response to an invincible reversal is to block on the opponent's wake-up, which can usually be mixed in with a shimmy to catch normal throws. Blocking on the opponent's wake-up also is extremely safe in exchange for having very little reward if you don't get the read on the reversal.
The problem comes in against a grappler, because grapplers can beat someone trying to block on your wake-up. You can't really shimmy a character with Gief's grab range, so in general the 'safe' option against grapplers is to go for meaties since they don't have reversals.
Essentially, if a grappler had an invincible reversal then the player on offense would be forced into a guessing game every time they knock the grappler down. If you go for meaty buttons you lose to reversal, if you go for blocking their wake-up then you lose to wake up command grab. The only safe option is to back off completely and go back to neutral. They'd feel EXTREMELY BAD to play against.
Thing is they kinda used to. Pretty much up until the SFV era command grabs themselves had some decent defensive utility. In SF4 SPD was 2 frames, and throws had priority over strikes. Basically this meant if you left even a 1 frame gap in your pressure you'd get scooped, even though grabs weren't actually invincible.
Pot Buster was also much faster, and actually had a frame of invul. You could IB PB tons of strings if you're opponents weren't careful.
But nowadays command grabs are slower and more damaging, so they don't really have any utility in modern games. Waldstein from Under Night is an exception, his 360A is 3 frames so it isn't that hard to shield and interrupt strings with it. But shielding carries a lot more risk in UNI2, so it's still somewhat rare to see normal SPD used defensively.
@@kevingriffith6011 That is not a guess, that is major reason for sure.
SNK does what no one else dares to when it comes to grapplers. At times they have amazing defense. Most grapplers in KoF come with a command throw with full invul and a command throw with 1 start-up frame. The extended range on command throws mean they can punish things on block that other archetypes can't. Some grapplers also have parry grabs. Are these grapplers top tier then?
Well, in KoF even non-grapplers have command throws at times (albeit neither with 1 frame startup, nor invul). Also jump arcs are very important in that game and that's where they fall off a little. Even so, KoF as a series has seen a fair amount of top tier grapplers and quite often, the bottom tiers are anything but grapplers
waiting for them to add a non big body grappler to guilty gear
(like blue mary or hinako in kof)
That's just Sol.
@@Nooctaethis is true
like hakuman!
@@Nooctae bro has 1 grab
Whuddya mean, Ky is right there!
You cannot tell my Ky isn't a grappler.
We did it, we went a video talking about big body characters without mentioning White Wild Assault!!! Nature is healing!
Quote on quote free thinkers doing hammer fall fast rc garuda
Oh man, the recent CEO Guilty Gear Strive tournament which has the Pot player, was so much fun to watch. Even when he lost to tempest, us matches were entertaining.
Not enough Abigail SFV footage, great big body character.
Arcade edition Abigail was really badly designed, idk much about the character but was he good before AE?
@@cosmic5665he is pretty much bottom tier in any game except arcade edition
An example I can think of is making more things universal.
Universal jumpsquats in ssbu and universal 4 frames in sf6 come to mind. Big characters used to suffer in these very general areas.
That's one of the things KoF does as well. The Grapplers are just allowed to run and use all four jumps, it's great.
Losing character indentiry isn’t the ideal design solution
@paulakroy2635 I can definitely see that argument. From my experience it does slightly lessen character variety, but the increased functionality and viability it can lead to is worthwhile if the characters are different otherwise imo.
@@paulakroy2635idk I think 4 frame jab in street fighter is a great example. It’s stupid to have moves safe on some characters but not on others (for reasons besides spacing)
@@paulakroy2635 yes, It does make characters feel “samey” in a way.
Big guys are just difficult to design so it is worth some experimentation.
This video could have been titled "How KoF made their big bodies and grapplers viable." No f-shiki. Juggle hurtboxes the same for everyone. Full screen lows. Armor that works. Good normals. Armored or Invulnerable grabs. Yep, all present across the kof big boys and girls.
CP and CF made all my years of struggling with tager and getting walled out by Jin j.C worth it
In dbfz rn, you can argue that like 3 of the top 5-10 is big bodies (cell, jiren, nappa)
I hate playing against big bodies with command grabs, cause 50/50 for dear life feels like hell. But I love watching someone else go through that hell, the struggle is entertaining to a hilarious degree.
Then you have Virtua fighter 5 where Big Bodies have the highly advantageous "heavy weight class" meaning you can't juggle them high enough for many combo routes and they're much harder to ring out.
Oh, but you bet they can combo and ring out lighter characters with ease
Speaking of Big Bodies, and your awesome Anakaris Vampire Savior video in the past... explaining those type of old school games.
Have you ever looked into that sort of- Hyper-esque Darkstalkers version of DS3/VS1/VS2/VH2 game on the Dreamcast called Vampire Chronicle for Matching Service which the PSP Chaos Tower is originally based from? Very interesting version, it is now with rollback on Fightcade 2 and Nulldc Bear. Would love to hear a dissection of that special version of the game... the improvements that it brings and the pseudo (not so faithful but interesting) play modes such as being able to play a Vampire, Hunter, Savior & Savior 2 style of any character... and modes like Vampire, Hunter & Savior that define meter system and round system format.
There's even funky stuff like Hunter version of BB Hood (which doesn't actually exist in Hunter) is a motion character instead of charge.... very interesting stuff. Game still plays like a VS1/VS2 game with the same turbo speed you would expect from VS1/VS2 and it's not entirely faithful to their respective games when you see style of choices... take it more of an inspiration and kinda restoring some aspects like original input of movelists if they have changed or... things like Dimitri's Hunter/Vampire Fireball returning to what it was in Hunter/Vampire. Dashes also change too... like Hsienko having a regular dash under Vampire mode, instead of her slow disappearing in and out dashes.
There's even some 2017 local tourneys of this game in recent times, that even the likes of MikeZ have played in person.
Feel like it would be an interesting dive in for a retro fighting game video... Vampire Chronicle for Matching Service, Hyper Street Fighter 2, or even the likes of Darkstalkers Vampire Savior 1 Arrange with Dee and every character under mostly VS1 based balancing & mechanics with the right balancing dipswitches on from the Vampire Darkstalkers PS2 Collection and Hyper Street Fighter Alpha from the Anthology PS2 Collection...
It felt like it was the MKX variation system before variation systems were even a thing.
Here's some reference links:
ruclips.net/video/0yFNEZGOtTM/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/5e3KEzQARoY/видео.html
I think that, for a long time, they thought that huge grab damage, on a really low skill opponent, was seen as bad or against the casual player. That is one of the only reasons I can think of why it lasted this long. Grabs were also seen as cheap in the reallll old days.
Hold up who tf is calling it an offensive fuzzy guard? Its fuzzy guard break. Because it beats fuzzy guard.
Uni grappler and bigbodys are usually powerful: Gordeau (A tier) Waldstein (A-B tier) Merk (S-Atier) so yea...
They are strong!
" Latin Queens " 😅
I agree that Accent Core Potemkin was an absolute menace. He was considered to be A tier in that version of Guilty Gear.
I think the issue is somewhat indirect. Most devs have decided that aggression should be rewarded. This works great for rushdown and even for Zoning, as system mechanics focused on canceling and converting can be great for long range pressure. But it puts Grappler/Turtle characters in an awkward position.
They're inherently defensive so they can't be too good or else it will encourage reactive rather than proactive play. I think this is what's hurting the Big Boys the most, what was once their main selling point, strong defense, is often intentionally nerfed. Potemkin and Zangief used to be able to use their grabs defensively, to the point where even madmen like Kazunoko would slow down and keep a safe distance. Now people usually think of Grapplers as weak defensively.
This focus on offense also means devs usually don't design more than one explicit Grappler so turtling is a lot more limited on a meta level. Waldstein is actually pretty strong in UNI2, his grabs work fine defensively and the new system mechanics make turtling better compared to previous versions. But there are like 20 other characters with more on the way, all with different pressure tools to account for. Meanwhile they only have to practice cracking Wald, maybe Enkidu and Akatsuki on a stretch. I'm hoping Ogre will be the T. Hawk to Walds Zangief, but I won't hold my breath.
Fun video, I like these characters despite being terrible with them.
I think big body should have meterless reversal
Bring back the Arcsys Grappler Backdash!
(context: In many arcsys games, grapplers and other big bodies get an absurd number of I-frames on their back dash. Like 20 frames of invul or something.)
But then you knock them down to their advantage, no? They can command throw your bait (even if you move out of regular throw range) and they can reversal everything else then.
A good parry is fair game though
why do you blink so much no offense just curious
dlanor from the umineko fighter can just summon a barrier that blocks all projectiles and walk at you with it up. Also her offense is ridiculous for a variety of reasons.
With big body comes big responsibility
even in GGST Giovanna previously had an infinite against standing potemkin where she could go 66 5K > J.S > J.H > J.D > 66 5K ... over and over (until the wall breaks :P)
Speaking of latin queens Doesn't Gio still have that rejump loop on big bodies?
Also interesting to note differences between big bodies and grapplers, they're not always the same thing, eg Marisa.
8:55 I don’t understand. What mixup? You just did air normals and pot blocked low so he got hit.
It is a mixup, if they block the move high (which is confirmable by Slayer), he can do a high/low that Pot can't respond to unless they do deflect shield. The black beat is there to say Pot could have blocked (and that he was in guard crush state).
You should notice that Pot is still standing, even though he is blocking low.
@@LordKnightfgcI think I understand it now, I had to google it. The blockstun keeps his hitboxes high so when he blocks low he still gets hit because of the stun and the way animations work.
I like Shiffon from daemon bride, she's a full screen zoner who in addition to covering the screen in projectiles has traps and heavy normals that cover the entire known universe, but when you get through all her bullshit she goes surprise I'm a grappler and hits you with an ex command grab that puts your ass back in the opposite corner, great character design, not at all frustrating to deal with.
I may not play Smash competitively anymore but I'm always rooting for my boy K Rool. He's so much fun to play (though I'm like one of three people who think he's better than bottom tier, it seems) especially since he got a ton of stuff other heavies in smash typically don't have.
Someone mentioned King already but Marduk in Tekken 7 was also an absolute menace, and lately, Jack-8 has been buffed so much a lot of people consider him a top tier.
I think that both Capcom and ArcSys have traditionally hated letting big bodies be strong. I think grapplers have thrived more often in SNK games in the previous eras.
Capcom only let a big body be good on accident with Sentinel in Marvel 2. He had all the traditional big body weaknesses, but because of unintended behaviors he was one of the highest mobility characters instead of the lowest. In addition he had many of the things you note from this video, full screen tools that are threatening with full screen damage into super. He also had advantage in the war of attrition with the combination of big body highest health status, while doing really well in trades and also at accruing chip over time. Instead of being the character that needed to get in, in the majority of matchups other characters needed to get in on him.
I think that another thing which allows grapplers to be pushed in the current meta for games is that there's a stronger push toward offense with mechanics that let characters get closer together more easily on both sides. For characters that want to interact closer together this is beneficial and it serves the big bodies. There's also an aversion to certain types of strong zoning existing and more tools universally to get through it, so one of the primary weaknesses of having an oversized hurtbox in that it's hard to get around things is often less impactful than it previously was.
If only heavies were good in platform fighters, the only remotely good heavy in Ultimate is bowser (Kazuya is a heavy weight in stats but not spirit)
Falcon is a heavyweight high tier in Melee, as well as Yoshi.
I think people said kragg is high tier in rivals of aether but most people say to me that tier lists are so fake in that game except for the top 8 characters
Could you make a guide on the ninja (chipp?) from guilty gear? Plz. I bought gg and want too make him my main but it is a bit too much. Could you help?
There’s probably already good guides out there from people with more Chipp-specific experience. Also I highly recommend the Dustloop wiki if you want to learn more about how to play a character in Strive.
@@longbeing Big thanks.
I think SNK and many airdashers are better than some of their more grounded counterparts at adding to the utility of the big bodies over flattening their balance to lack of mobility and high single hit damage. I'd love if more took what is inherently unique about the characters and made those the malleable points. I think it'd be neat to take the weakness of the big hurtbox and instead had it so they were a stance character that could alter that big weakness with skill.
LKs hairline goes crazy
Big Boys Foreveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer
Broly and 16 keep me coming back even though my super dash timing is trash.
Day 2 asking for Zato
white wild assault trauma
FGC be like: GIVE ME THAT FATBOY
The funny thing is calamity trigger tager had exactly one winning matchup and it was brutally winning
... Against ragna.
Weren't his only winning mus against Hakumen (who was also just as bad as him) and Noel due to sledge armor ?
7:47 I've never heard the term "offensive fuzzy guard". I always thought people called it "fuzzy" cuz it was short for "fuzzy guard break"
The word fuzzy is extremely confused and messy in the english speaking FGC. The term got used for a few different things with no regard to clarity for years. The correct term for this specific tech here is f-shiki , based on a Venom player named F back in old Gear that invented/ popularized it.
There are many definitions for fuzzy on offense or defense, I call it offensive fuzzy guard because it makes it more clear for people.
Here because of Marisa from Street Fighter 💪🏻
Non grappler big bodies are in a really good spot rn and its friggin awesome, even grapplers are doing good like pot sitting in mid tier and gief sitting in mid - high tier
💪🏽
KOF: let the mf run
bro forgot to mention sf6 zangief, rn contesting for top 1 by top players which is funny
Turns out having strong universal mechanics and then not taking them away from the big bodies helps a lot. Then having their damage at the absurd levels is enough to matter.
@@EvilPineappl Poor Manon got her drive rush shot so that Zangief could carry the grappler banner lol
Yeah gief is good but the ones saying hes top 1 are salty lol
Ban potemkin, ionwanna deal with that shit
🤣
@scrubquotes
Scrub is a mindset 🗣️🗣️🗣️
I'm surprised no one has mentioned SFV Laura. She was an absolute menance, and that was before iDom got his hands on her. He kind of changed everything after that.
Laura isn't really a big body. Grappler yes, absolutely. But her size is pretty average compared to the rest of the cast.
@@webbowser8834 Yeah, you're right. In my mind, "Big bodies" and Grapplers are the same, but in reality that's not always case. Abigail and Birdie woulda been the big bodies, and they were beasts too.
@@Count_Virgil Oh yeah, the two are absolutely big bodies. Birdie is arguably a grappler too, though Abigail is firmly in the Juggernaut style of big body.
Grapplers arent people
yeah they're fighting game characters
Can confirm
Grappler haters really like trying to make grapplers look like what themselves look like