"No mindgames, only options" has to be one of the greatest pieces of advice I've ever heard, but also something I'd like to see changed in the way fighting games are understood more generally. Too many people not familiar with the genre seem to think that good fighting game play (beyond the execution) is about being a clairvoyant demigod that always knows exactly what their opponent wants to do. In reality, the better I've gotten at fgs the more I've realized that learning how to analyze game states and think appropriately in terms of risk/reward goes way further than simply trying to be "right" all the time.
Probably would tell myself not to play every fighting game like I wanted to go competitive. Literally took all of the fun out of them to the point that I don’t want to play them anymore bcs I’m old now and washed, I know my execution isn’t there but I already have this inherit super toxic mindset from growing up in the internet. Now I just live vicariously through you, Jwong and other greats lol.
The last bit about how you (LordKnight) wasn't getting the respect you wanted made me feel guilty, because I was a hater back in the day. But funny thing about Xrd specifically I remember seeing your tutorial about how to properly mash out of stun, using the hold back P (heh) method so if you over mash you're at least in FD instead of flailing around by accident. That made me follow your channel and really appreciate your knowledge, and needless to say I'm a believer now.
Goal Setting resonated with me. I'm fighting for my life in discord servers every day trying to get people to not crush themselves under the weight of their own expectations Winning is just a side effect of good play. The only thing you have to do is turn up to bracket and do your best!
only options was cool & the characters thing was validating cuz I play almost every character in ggst and my friends say that im throwing by not focusing on one character which is still kinda true cuz my experience is being spread pretty thin but it makes most match ups easier for me even if its losing or disadvantaged because I understand the weaknesses of most characters.
This is just fundamentally true in a lot of competitions. Oftentimes in traditional sports, the best coaches tend to be dudes who never got far in their sport of choice. It's very rare for a legend of the game to actually be a winning coach after their playing days.
I've always thought of mindgames simply as using your opponents expectations against them. This varies depending on a whole mess of factors, is it in the middle of a set, have you played this person, how good are they, etc. At game start against a new opponent, the opportunities for mind games relies entirely on how you think players of that character at that skill level will generally behave and what they might expect you to do. A simple example of a mind game mid set would be doing the same option multiple times to make it seem like this is just what you do, and then switching to something that punishes their reaction to that option. Of course, if a player is good enough, option selects and careful defensive play can negate a lot of mind games, but overall they are very useful especially at intermediate levels of play and you even see them at high levels from time to time, though generally they are more of complex than the example I gave.
I think LK's point is that "mind games" in this definition is so integral to fighting games that its much better to call it what is is: options. After you step past level of understanding the basics of the game, you are competent at piloting your character, and you understand what your opponents character does, you are both playing mind games, especially in traditional fighters like SF and Tekken. At the moment I'm playing Tekken with a friend whos a bit higher ranked than me, and after playing hundreds of matches, there will be times where be both just stand still with 5 HP waiting for the opponent to do something. You can call it mind games, but we've already been playing mind games for the past hundred matches, its constant evaluation of what option I picked, how they reacted, what were my other options, what did they pick, was I aware of that option, etc. Another point about mind games is that sometimes there are no mind games, some people play fighting games like they are single player games, they use their flow charts, and if it gets countered, they find a better flow chart. There's no mind game to play there, but that's a sign of lower level of play, and it still boils down to options for the opponent.
One of my favourite tips that I've been given is if you're struggling against a certain character constantly (Mine was Anji), have a play and practice as that character. Even if you don't go super in-depth, it helps you get a feel for their moves and strings and seeing it from the other side can help find gaps in their kit!
One piece of advice that really stuck with me that i think about since I was told it is "pick the strongest character that you think is cool" in terms of being a competitive player. It sets you up the best while still letting you enjoy the game.
The power of internal motivation is ridiculously good. It is one of those things that not many people realize but it keeps you sane and motivated with what you're trying to do. Fighting games, YT, drawing, fitness. It will all get MUCH more bareable when you pat yourself on the back for something awesome you managed to do. Maybe you finally got that combo memorized. Maybe you edited a footage in a cool way. Maybe you finally drew a hand that was not a total abomination. Or maybe you did a nice clean deadlift. It is my number one tool when I work on anything at this point. Funnily enough, a lot of people have been saying it but using different words. Like Arnold Schwartzenegger who talked about naysayers. In a way that was about focusing on your goal and achieving success in your own way. You do what you feel like you have to do. Also most people dont care. Best example is how a lot of famous celebrities have almost no friends. But also balance it out as when you do get feedback try to understand where they are coming from and improve. Unless they are trolling. This got very heavy and we were just watching a Fighting Game video. Much love, LordKnight. Stay awesome.
The part where you talk about internal versus external motivators, and particularly how you talk about it, is extremely powerful. You are touching on some very deep stuff there. Thank you for taking the time to articulate that so well, and for giving such great examples. The portion where you mention how you've been driven by spite and anger, and how that has the potential to burn someone out is incredibly valuable knowledge and you talk about it in a way that reveals so much to me. I sincerely hope that many, many people listen to this. You live up to your name in a way that is rare and irreplicable. I have the highest respect for you and what you've said here.
Importance of playing in neutral. People have a very weird tendency to learn games from very spectacular combos. This was especially noticeable to me when I returned to this genre after a two-year break, and I was basically climbing in ranked from very bottom. Great, you can do a combo that will eat half bar, but what if your opponent understands the game in neutral and knows that he has to wait out your turn, or just know how to whiff you. Just learn three simple combos that will cover AA, mid and corner, and spend the rest of time learning basics. Something that will remain with you until the end, because you can easily transfer it to other games.
I remember when I was still in Gold in SF6 and I came across a few Kimberly's and Akuma's doing entire strings on the very first opening that they'd get. Even if it was the very first hit they got. Burning themselves out in the process. (I was like "wtf? Why would you do this") and they wouldn't know what to do after being burnt out. I still won the sets lmao
As a mostly casual FG player I can confirm, this is one of the most important areas of the game, which I can tell because I'm bad at it and lose a lot. Just like, fundamentals. Neutral, pressure, defense, all the bits of a fighting game that are less glamorous. My biggest problem is that I don't know *how* to get better at it.
@@daniellemurnett2534 Figure out your spacing, practice using pokes at their maximum range. Also practice against an enemies spacing, learn what their maximum ranges are. Figure out when it’s your turn, learn the frames, and how to use frames to your advantage. A huge part of neutral also comes down to learning and recognizing what your opponent is doing. You have to pay attention to their habits and what options they are using. Like for example; in tekken let’s say you jab someone once, what does the opponent do after? Do they block? Jab back? Sidestep? Etc. Once you can expect someone’s option you can figure out how to counter it, and for the majority of fighting game players they will not change their habits. Same applies for how you’re playing, don’t become predictable and try not to lean on flowcharts. This is all easier said than done, but play long enough like this and neutral will become way more controllable
As a casual - I like doing longer and harder combos so I try to learn at least one of those, a few bnbs and anti airs and get going from there. But I don't really get frustrated when losing. I definitely see the argument if you want to skip straight into learning fundamentals and the game mechanics though.
one thing i struggle with as a perennial beginner in fighting games is trying to learn the properties of my character’s moves and how to interact with the system mechanics rather than memorizing a million different combos for different situations, but i still haven’t been able to achieve this in a fighting game yet. i’m also really inconsistent with how often i play, which stops me from making progress
I've started playing fighting games last year, and started with MK11, then Strive, then SF6, and then Tekken 8. The only thing that helps with feeling competent is just play time. There is some structured learning you can do, and following content outside of the game can help you familiarize yourself with situations that you have no encountered, but at the end of the day, the biggest hurdle is just putting in the time to play the game. The reality is that someone who has 100 more matches than you has seen probably 500 more unique interactions than you did. Someone with 1000 more matches has seen probably 2500 more unique interactions. Until you actually encounter an interaction multiple times, you won't know how to respond to it, and that's fine, because it means you can just play the game, get used to it, and then later see what didn't work.
@@radumotrescu3832 this is so obvious but so important, and it extends to things like spending all your time in training mode instead of actually playing the game (this is my issue). It doesn't matter if I can consistently do B2 loops or Acid Rain with Lee in practice mode if I can only get one solid launch (that I actually recognize and pick up) per match and don't know what to use Acid Rain against. Once I actually started _playing the video game,_ I was able to improve _way_ faster. Again, this is so painfully obvious to anyone with more than 2 braincells to rub together, but it's still worth mentioning.
@@Wolfgang_von_Caelid its not obvious for people who like the competitive aspect but are intimidated by the competition itself, like me. It took me a lot of hours of sc2, chess and fighters to get to this really obvious conclusion: just play the game if its fun, if its not, take a break, if after a break its still not fun then maybe its not for you, ranked is just a way to get fair opponents, and quick play is a-ok
In Magic they have this idea of psychological player archetypes. Timmy/Tammy may for example want to win by playing the biggest creature in the game, even though it sucks from a competitive standpoint; just because it's cool. Johnny/Jenny wants to show off by winning with complex interactions. Spike wants to win no matter how. I feel like those archetypes exist in fighting games too. I'm not saying it's *wrong* to set the goal of wanting to be the best, but even for competitive people I think it's a goal that can just make you unhappy if it means not getting to play the character that inspires you. I don't think that clashes with what you said, just wanted to add it. I've never been that competitive, so I'm not sure I'd tell myself anything other than that fgc people are just generally cool and happy to help out beginners. I could've probably progressed much faster if I'd talked more to experienced players early on.
Yeah, when LK was talking about character loyalty it made me think for INO-Daru, like yeah maybe he could win with a stronger character but there’s something special about achieving it your way with the character you like and want to see win. Or another guy whose name escapes me, who refused to play Adon in sf4 because he hated his voice.
Found your content like a month ago and damn man. Great vibes, great advice, great perspectives. A lot of the stuff here resonates, not just in this video but across your recent content.
This video really helped quantify exactly the issues I've been hvaing with strive in the past few months, I take some form of break and get rusty and regress while friends who play way more progress way beyond me, leading to me not being able to properly quantify and perceive what I should be aiming for, leading to getting swept up in goals that are way too far or getting way too attached to needing to accomplish anything such that I crash super hard when I fail them. That plus playing baiken and watching her just feel worse and worse over time leading to a lot of "I know where I am making mistakes, but also see places to blame the character" getting very frustrated with how much more reward everyone else seems to get compared to her and how so many amtchups baiken just kinda stops functioning in neutral it feels like, but there's the sunk cost fallacy of playing her for 2 years that trying to switch I feel so much less experienced and have to relearn so much, it's tough but I think I can try to re aim my goals and do better.
Vetting info is so important but very hard as a low skill player. I couldn't even tell if a combo I found worked or not since I didn't know how it was supposed to work. Thankfully there are active people in the character discord that helped me out.
For me mind games is a conditioning thing. You set up expectations, and then break them. Yes, it involves options. You have certain options you can take, so you condition the opponents to 3 or the 4 options, then scarcely do the 4th. Now they are afraid of a 4th option you don't use much because of it's danger, and act to stop something that isn't likely to happen, when they probably shouldn't be. That's mind games to me.
Motivation is so important. If the game itself isn't intrinsically motivating for you, then it will be very hard to continue to play long-term. I boot up Street Fighter and just enjoy training mode, casual matches, ranked matches (win or lose) for what they are. If I didn't I wouldn't be able to play day-in, day-out for years on end. That's not to say that every part of it must be enjoyable. I've had painful hours in training trying to learn specific techniques. But my motivation for doing that is that knowing them will bring me more enjoyment long-term.
I feel like the problem with calling it mindgames is that it assumes that every opponent is on the same level that you are. Certain players are not gonna get mind gamed because they don't care about the mind game to begin with. Their gonna pick whatever option they want regardless if its wrong or right. Its only really a mindgame if you know your opponent starts overthinking.
this video was awesome. as someone who got into competitive melee back in around the same time as you then transitioned to the overarching fgc around dbfz, a lot of this rings very true.
Here's a lesson I had to learn personally: When you start having success, ESPECIALLY if the way you achieve success is with unorthodox play, there are some people who are going to be mad. They are going to try and discredit your results and your success any way they can, and say anything imaginable to put you down and discourage you from continuing what you're doing. The advice? Fuck those fuckers, and don't let them demotivate you. They lost. You didn't. They are probably also the kinds of people who play competitive team games and blame everyone else when they lose. They're not saying these things because you're bad; they're saying these things to cope with their losses while avoiding accountability for them. Source/Cred: I was the pariah of the Vampire Savior community when it first appeared on GGPO, lol.
Honestly if someone says you have a bizzare playstyle and it works you should probably keep doing it, you can be good at the game and play weird and I think even if you don't win the most you will probably end up being well liked
The amount of shit I read about mk11, which was my first game, that was total bs, is amazing. Luckily I'm older than most people will get into fighting games and my experience helped me realize this. But endless bad info is out there it's wild.
2 point kind of resonated with me. The execution one and the you are not commited to your main. I've always picked high execution or just hard character in general with the mentality of "if I can play the hardest character... I can probably play anyone right" ....oh how wrong I was. That cost me so many tournaments too. But the funny thing also was... I swap such character out and boom.... wins. One thing that I wish I knew when I started was to be patient and learn how to defend as well as you want to press offense. That has been one of the hardest lessons I've tought myself and I still struggle till this day. After all.... I didn't pay $60 dlrs to block right
"Mind games" to me has always conjured the idea of tricking your opponent into doing what you want (and are prepared to punish them for doing) by making them think you're going to do something you're not. So, what the FGC outside the Smash community tends to call "Conditioning," basically, feels like it means the same thing and is perhaps clearer in communicating how it works.
I think the motivation section really resonated with me because I fall into that trap a lot, it starts to be disheartening whether i win or fail because I not getting any love from my peers when I should be raising myself up instead of waiting for others. Also the part about not being tied to a main, I'm working on that but I genuinely can't find another character I mess with in strive right besides testament, but I do tried to play different types of characters in other games. Great vid!
I think it’s important to point out that mind games or “options” only really comes into play if both players know what is possible. So at times you need to show or condition the opponent into seeing you have said option so that you may subvert their expectations
One thing I really wish I learned earlier is to keep things very concrete. I'd ask myself stuff like "how do I improve my neutral?/did I play footsies good?" or "how do i guess better when I need to take pressure?" They are too vague to be quickly actionable, especially for a beginner. I improved SO much quicker when I kept things to stuff I could see on the screen. I can see in a replay what I get hit by, and its often clear why. Turns out blocking for 2 hits and then mashing got me killed alot more than missing some mystical footsies wisdom.
I main ryu in sf6 but they did a zangief only tournament a while back that i entered on a whim. And during my practice for the tournament i realized that i really liked how gief plays in 6 compared to previous games. And i use him just as much now and i actually win more with him lol. I still cant play charge characters to save my life
Been married to the idea of a main for awhile playing fighting games, but with you saying to try other characters (and my friends saying a bunch too) I might actually try branching out a bit.
There is one thing that I would tell my past self that will help everybody at about anything they are trying to get seriously better at. It's a saying that goes "Comparison is killer of progress." When I first started running track I would compare my times and jumps to everybody around me instead of just focusing on myself. I would have progressed so much faster if instead of comparing myself to my peers I just put in the work and tried to see small amounts of progress everyday. Fortunately, I figured this out in the summer after my first season, so I didn't continue hindering my growth.
Haha I watched this even though I'm in my late 30s, have only been learning fgs for about 4 years after a LONG time of just casual button mashing. I rarely enter tourneys and when I do, it's just to support the scene and try not to go 0-2. Having said that, this video has useful info in general for anyone looking to improve.
Mind games is abusing the human tendency to recognize patterns - in essence, you pretend to have "obvious" patterns to use your opponents adaptation against them. Thereby manipulating what the best option is in your opponents head
The problem with moving off your main, is remembering stuff, imo. In smash, I can play anyone, cuz the inputs are all the same, but when I play Strive I'm just Nago. I did learn Axl once, but I'll be darned if I remember any of his inputs. Excited for 2XKO though!
If I could go back and tell myself anything, when I was getting into them. It would probably be something to the effect of: "Gonna be real with you, if you're serious about improving at the game. The rank and wins don't matter. They'll kind of just come, as you confront stuff. So the only thing that'll ever matter for real is this: You need to learn what kind of fun you want to have and build from there. Everything else will follow."
Fuck combos lol, thats what i wouldve told my beginner self. I cared way to much about hitting crazy flashy stuff when i was starting out. It really held me back for a long time
Things i would tell my younger self about fighting games. 1. Dont play them lol 2. Play every archetype/character earlier 3. Watch your replays more 4.dont be as mean to yourself mentally. Try to be more objective. it's not that deep.
@friendlyanomaly6109 I kinda a joke but on a serious note they can be mentally/emotionally challenging the deeper you get because you care the more you play it can be a hard balance of caring enough to keep playing and improving but not caring so much it starts taking away Fom other areas in your life
Seeing BBCT in his first few videos hurt my soul a little... Great game for the time but god did it age poorly... Fun concepts... Lacking in other areas... At least it created the groundwork for a series that hasn't had a new entry in nearly 10 years (BBCF came out in 2015, and we don't count BBTAG or BBEE)
Something new players should know is that they shouldn't pick a character for the wrong reasons. Don't pick a character you hate playing because some dork on the internet told you top/high tier players are lame/carried. Or conversely you pick a low tier because you think it makes you cooler and lets you pull the "i play a low tier" option select card when you lose.
idk why but all fighting games ive tried i gravitate to the "low tiers" but not because theyre a low tier, i just think they have interesting gameplay/design yada yada (a good example is testament and bedman? in ggst) but in my opinion, tier list are stupid and you can truly win as any character if youre good enough
I guess the biggest one for me is "Abusing the stuff that's in the game", which I am still struggling with today. I would refuse to use certain mechanics/strategies that I deemed "unfair" because I didn't want to rely on a crutch and beat the opponent fair and square so they have none of the excuses I would make in their stead. Naturally, if you don't even win because you let the opponent do the "unfair" stuff to you then who cares? I guess another one would be "Holding back when it's apparent my opponent isn't having fun fighting me" but that's more of a personal thing due to growing up with brothers that would stop playing if it's not fun for them. Don't know how many other folks have that experience but it haunts me.
I kinda get that, but mostly in the modern context of I don't do certain things because I can tell that this is getting nerfed as hell in the future patch and it's only gonna be good for a short time.
The best option is only the best option as long as it works consistently with minimal risk. After it no longer consistently works, the best option is the one they least expect. This could be called conditioning, or the evolving meta, but I’d like to compare these concepts to mind games today. To me mind games is getting in your opponents head and breaking mental stack, staying unpredictable. It could be as simple as a shimmy, the only reasons shimmy’s work is because of expectations. Or it could be throw looping, if the opponent dosent expect a second throw but takes both, they assume/expect there’s no way a third throw comes. And that’s why it’s possible to throw a knowledgeable player 5 times in a row and melt their health bar. This is to me more of a mindgame than a mix up. I mainly play mortal kombat, and another mind game we do to bait out punishable options is if the opponent is looking to do something off your mistake like teleport and punish or fatal blow, we will stand in neutral and press our fastest button and block or backdash, they react to the button but don’t get the punish. So we use their state of mind against them, this is partly a read, partly a bait, all mindgame. Or sometimes we even t bag in neutral to get under their skin and push them to make mistakes and take risks because they are tilted. Yes shimmy, throw looping and baiting are all common concepts on their own and to some could be considered mixups or just options. I believe using these techniques effectively comes down to if it gets into the opponents head and messes with their expectations/reactions. Because if they do, that’s when these options become most consistent. This connects with your original best options, giving you a secondary flowchart to fall back on and ensuring you stay ahead of the mental stack. If you can make someone expect an option and withhold it, thereby gaining advantage from a decision made in the past, you are currently the player with the edge in my opinion.
If I were to guess, I think people being committed to their mains (ignoring things like story/source material) is some form of sunk cost fallacy. At least I remember trying to switch off of Anji in Strive and trying out characters like Millia, Leo or Bridget was awkward and more than once I went back to Anji, because he felt familiar.
Learning by yourself with minimal to no external input is definetly important (and not just for fighting games). To gain guidance one must first gather enough questions and accumulate deep personal insight. Experiment first, learn later.
Interesting subject, & good examples. True on execution. I try to practice & use good combos, while not having them drop from difficulty. Goals are usually the ranked trophy, though I never reached it for MvCI. 😑 SFV gold took 5 years. 😐 But internal's most important. I've never got out of pools for an online or offline tournament, which is fine. Well, SF6 Iron (not my ranked goal) Tournament in Battle Hub- I got to finals. 😉Fun vid.
One thing i wish i knew b4 i started was that if you subscribe to LK your character goes up a tier and other people on FGC twitter think less poorly of themselves. They still think you are ass, but their self-esteem gets boosted somehow.
Just because you aren't doing a big damage combo doesn't mean you shouldn't be playing the character. My first intro into actually playing fighting games against others was with bbcs, and i kept switching characters because i couldn't do a combo that would match what my friend who already had been playing for a while could do with one move... he was playing Tager.
Mind games (which I personally roll into gambling, high balling, or just plain callouts) are functionally opting for exploitative play vs game-theoretically optimal options. We've talked about this in terms of risk/return constantly at the higher level of play in the FGC, but I think its critical to recognize that whether or not you opt to play explicitly towards whatever nash equilibrium exists in a given situation (hard to solve, requires a lot of discipline regardless) rather than opting towards a read ("I *know* this dude is gonna do X/Y/Z so I'll do A/B/C). As an aside, the FGC in general *heavily* trends towards exploitative play, given the short set count, the general lack of knowledge of the player base, and the fact that execution (ability to even physically perform the optimal thing) and reactions (same as above, but with variance even at the highest level, and something you can impact via mental stacking and practice) exist, rather than a pure turn based game that's fully and neatly solvable.
Awesome analysis! But I have one question, are there really game-theoretically optimal options in most modern fighting games? I think that Tekken 7 was the closest we ever got to this, because defense was so incredibly strong. A strong player like Arslan who had a specific poke heavy safe style on a character like Kazumi was probably the scariest matchup in Tekken history, but that was due to system mechanics, balance decisions, infinite stages etc. And that type of playstyle ultimately paved the way for Tekken 8 to be more coin-flippy because tournaments got boring at the end of its lifespan. But other than that, it feels like most pro players play that way, with very small room for error. But at some point, you will have to guess or make a read, that's what makes fighting games different from chess.
@@radumotrescu3832 Great points about T7, and I'd agree. This was additionally part of the issues people had with characters like Leroy or Fahk, who not only forced you guess constantly, but could load mental stacks easily, quickly, and reliably, and leads into my other point: When I say game theoretically optimal, I'm *mostly* talking about Nash equilibria right? I.E. options which picked over the course of hundreds or thousands of games will yield the highest EV or expected value. 'Easy' example might be something like Nago roundstart RPS back in S2 (when DP was functionally uninteractable for like 2/3rds of the case), wherein you might (after a bit of math) come to the conclusion you should should DP say...63% of the time, backdash beyblade 22% of the time, and 2S the remainder. These numbers are entirely fabricated, but the idea is that by showing those options with that level of regularity, you could earn the highest 'return' (combo damage into a favorable situation into another interaction point where *that* is calculated as % outcome multiplied by return, iterated to the game end point) ON AVERAGE. This would be hugely dependent on simplifying assumptions like reaction time, your ability to not drop a BNB, the opponent's ability to ALSO play around their solved nash equilibria, and so on. This doesn't really happen in game. In game, you see me do roundstart DP, and next round usually either dash block and force me to spend blood in a different interaction wherein I *don't* know the solved NE, and neither do you, and we both try to gather information on each other's understanding of the situation, or backdash/give up space to ignore the situation entirely. Most strong players have a mix of spots they understand well (labbed and mathed out) and places where they get more value out of exploitive play (watching the screen, gathering data, and making a read). Just because the math is very frustrating and complicated doesn't mean game theoretically optimal options *don't* exist, only that they're hard to figure out. Devs are trying to simplify this by improving conversion ability, raising damage, and lowering the amount of requisite system knowledge required (think unifying character weights, hurt box normalization, and homogenization of wakeup timings). TL;DR: yeah they exist but it's a little complicated
Noel Vermillion is so much fun to play. I never realized that she kinda busted😅 You truly get more out of a fighting game when you use multiple characters.
As a casual player, I love the idea of dropping "mind games" from the vocab, if only for the mental fortitude it provides. Humans are notoriously terrible for ascribing meaning to statistical events that are very likely over a long enough period of time, especially streaks. There's a reason throw throw throw shimmy highlights feel so powerful, because it feels like they really had the other person's number. But did they, or was it just two people guessing with a particular skillset and that sort of thing just... happens. Don't let them into your head and they'll have no power over you.
I play Valorant, LoL, and OW2 competitively. Just started playing sf6 and strive COMPLETE fighting game beginner. I always understood mindgames as things you as the player can do to disrupt the opponents thinking or (flowchart in fgc). Please tell me, is shimmying considered mind-gaming? In PC games it would be considered a mind game.
Yes, I would think so. Shimmying requires you to get into the head of the opponent, observing that they tend to throw tech often/fuzzy throw tech. Then once you understand what option they’re taking, you can try to shimmy for a risky but rewarding punish. The real mind games come from whether or not the opponent tries to adapt, if you adapt preemptively to them adapting, etc…
A few questions. How do you consistently perform combos under pressure? In training mode, I can execute some combos, but in a match its like adrenaline and nervousness kicks in and I can never get it right. Is there any training solution? Second, does learning how to play an instrument vastly improve the ability to perform combos? Can musicians find the right tempo for each combo and execute very well? Or is a musical sense of rhythm not necessary for fighting games?
I'm just some guy who's only been into fighting games for a few years, but to answer your questions - getting consistent with combos under pressure just comes from practicing doing them under pressure. If you're trying a new combo that you feel comfortable with in training mode, do your best to execute it in a match. If you can, try to focus not on winning the match, but doing the combo. Consider that a "win" in your mind. Play on an unranked mode or against friends if you can, it'll take some of the pressure off. And try to understand that even the best players drop combos under pressure sometimes, and that learning something in training mode and then learning to do it in a match are two separate steps to learning. One way to bridge the gap between doing combos in training mode and in a real match is to try to do the combo on a CPU. This is one of the few things practicing against CPUs is good for. It'll let you practice going into a combo during different situations and reacting to what's happening onscreen instead of always doing the combo in a set, predictable way. You'll notice some improvement as you keep trying to land the combo in a game, and then eventually it'll become second nature. As well, the more you play in the situations that make you nervous, whether it's online ranked, in a tournament, etc, the less nervous you'll become as you get used to them. I think having experience playing a musical instrument, especially something that uses mainly your fingers, can be very helpful to learning fighting game execution. You'll already be used to doing complicated inputs with your fingers to a certain rhythm, and the structure of practicing an instrument and practicing fighting game combos is similar. But it's something that anyone can learn. Whether you learn that by playing an instrument or learning a fighting game, you'll be able to learn it. I would say that having an "innate" musical skill or previous experience as a musician is not necessary for fighting games. It's just something you may have to spend a bit more time practicing than someone who already has some experience doing something similar.
nah none of these really resonate, i'm just not trying to become a pro player that's all. i think personally the biggest problem starting out in any pvp game is the weird notion you have to grind knowledge and execution in order to start playing online to enjoy the game, that never were the case in any game until online and auto matchmaking became a thing. back then the main draw of all of these pvp competitive games were the casual aspect, either playing against or with a buddy at home or playing against the cpu, and seriously i don't think that have changed. i think to begin with for all these pvp games you are ment to play the cpu til you can easily beat it regardless of difficulty level typically and then move onto the online experience because the cpu can't offer you anymore challenge and that is only if you want to go online, now i'm not saying you shouldn't go online instantly, you definitly can if you want to. but as someone who have been a beginner in many genres and really ran up against a wall more than once when it comes to knowledge and execution checks specifically when it relates to online pvp games, those checks often take up so much of my time that i get typically fed up with the game before i even sit down to play them because it's not about enjoying the game it's just grinding skill so i could eventually come to enjoy it and i would just burn out on the grind to try and become competent online, and then it hit me, i never did this as a kid and i had a great time and i learned way more smoothly and in a more entertaining way by just messing around playing vs the cpu or some arcade stuff or the campaign or storymode and not really caring about becoming a competent online player, i just became competent after playing against the cpu for fun after a long enough time, that's how i found my mains initially, by simply just playing. and i think just maybe this new generation have kinda lost sight of that, i know i did for a long time.
Big fan, but I think that weird interpretation of Mind Games was a you thing lol. Then again, I started with SF, where there's not that much weird "random" shit you can do and the way baiting and high risk options work are a lot more clear cut and obvious. So maybe that was just something easier to get in that environment.
It's always me. I need to learn fighting game basics hard and master shotos. I'm a dad with little time on my hands, so idk where to start, really. Mostly I just try not to mash. Lol
I work a ton and love fighters, all you can do is practice a little daily ( like 5 mins of execution ) and play matches when you got some free time, I feel yoilu
@BlueJGilbert when I first played sf4 in 2010, I couldn't do a single fireball, by the time I finished I was doing 1 frame links no problem. The human brain has an amazing ability to develop skills no matter how trivial they are. You can do it if you want it
If the game isn't fun/is no longer fun then stop playing Maybe you're on such a losing streak that it's more stressful than fun, maybe the game got a new system mechanic that ruins your enjoyment, maybe you reached a level of play where you realize how degenerate it is, among others In cases like these it's ok to drop the game and move to a different one (unless you're a pro player whose livelihood is on that game then idk) I've been feeling this way with GBVSR where the game is more annoying and frustrating than fun and it's sad but I simply cannot play that game anymore, the system mechanics along with some specific characters in the game just ruin it for me Game's are meant to be fun, if it's not then why bother... or something, idr the exact quote
I can relate on granblue sadly. I love that game but recently I noticed that I seem to just hate most of the cast as well as some system choices among other things too.
So my character crisis is a power and not a setback? I've been viewing fighting games wrong this whole time! I find many characters cool so it's really hard to pick a main, guess I'll just play them all.
Right on the title of this video, the number one thing you would have wished you should have known is that Smash is not a fighting game. That makes the top spot of the list for sure.
Fighting Games were arguably never about balance. That's something I feel like nobody talks about. I was looking at Street Fighter 2 matchups history and they they were Ryu and Ken. Which quickly made me think "If Fighting Games is all about Balance why are their Clone characters with similar moves but with better properties and stats?" the answer was Street Fighter 1. A truly balanced fighting game is completely different. We all use the game Footsie as general idea how a game will feel but I feel like games like Footsies doesn't emulate the true experience. A mirror match can happen but is generally something most players avoid because they'd rather have a "Better Matchup" than go "Even". Dhalsim vs Zangief exists very intentionally for a very long time. It's like what's happening in those more "Realistic Medieval" games where you have a wide variety of weapons at your disposal that all do different things. We're playing a "Mixed Martial Arts/Weapons" simulator in a sense. So we're going to be wildly inbalanced but due to how characters are designed that's arguably how it should be. It's hard to just admit at times "Damn my character is just not meant to have good matchups".
Its funny melee is a substantially harder game than most fighting games but fighting games look far harder. Anyways my biggest personal problem with fighting games is remembering combos. I just have a bad memory. I can spend an hour practicing one combo and then the next day I forget I even practiced it. Add on top of that, that I dont like to play just 1 character and its not good.
"there's no mind games, only option sets" is the most boring, soul-sucking, boil-all-of-what-fun-emotional-brain-stuff-is-even-still-left-at-high-level-play-into-ever-more-solitarily-math-brain-shit ive ever heard
I think another plus of playing multiple characters is counterplay knowledge. When you play a sub character, you sometimes find how people can stuff their offence. You can then implement this yourself when you go up against them.
it's thanks to "garbage info" that my info network hella shrunk. i also feel like some who give bad advice about the game/characters don't want you to get better. and internal motivation is something i hella lack, so i should work on that. thanks for the vid. :3
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
Did any of these resonate with you? Or is there something you wish you knew?
(also pls subscribe)
"No mindgames, only options" has to be one of the greatest pieces of advice I've ever heard, but also something I'd like to see changed in the way fighting games are understood more generally. Too many people not familiar with the genre seem to think that good fighting game play (beyond the execution) is about being a clairvoyant demigod that always knows exactly what their opponent wants to do. In reality, the better I've gotten at fgs the more I've realized that learning how to analyze game states and think appropriately in terms of risk/reward goes way further than simply trying to be "right" all the time.
Probably would tell myself not to play every fighting game like I wanted to go competitive. Literally took all of the fun out of them to the point that I don’t want to play them anymore bcs I’m old now and washed, I know my execution isn’t there but I already have this inherit super toxic mindset from growing up in the internet. Now I just live vicariously through you, Jwong and other greats lol.
The last bit about how you (LordKnight) wasn't getting the respect you wanted made me feel guilty, because I was a hater back in the day. But funny thing about Xrd specifically I remember seeing your tutorial about how to properly mash out of stun, using the hold back P (heh) method so if you over mash you're at least in FD instead of flailing around by accident. That made me follow your channel and really appreciate your knowledge, and needless to say I'm a believer now.
Goal Setting resonated with me. I'm fighting for my life in discord servers every day trying to get people to not crush themselves under the weight of their own expectations
Winning is just a side effect of good play. The only thing you have to do is turn up to bracket and do your best!
only options was cool & the characters thing was validating cuz I play almost every character in ggst and my friends say that im throwing by not focusing on one character which is still kinda true cuz my experience is being spread pretty thin but it makes most match ups easier for me even if its losing or disadvantaged because I understand the weaknesses of most characters.
Mind games is when a Yoshimitsu player wake up hop kicks you, knowing they got blown up 5 seconds ago from trying to do the same thing earlier.
I do this all the time lol.
One huge thing I came to learn like what LK mentioned in this video...
Just because someone is good does not mean they are a good teacher.
This is just fundamentally true in a lot of competitions. Oftentimes in traditional sports, the best coaches tend to be dudes who never got far in their sport of choice. It's very rare for a legend of the game to actually be a winning coach after their playing days.
looking at you, programmers
I've always thought of mindgames simply as using your opponents expectations against them. This varies depending on a whole mess of factors, is it in the middle of a set, have you played this person, how good are they, etc. At game start against a new opponent, the opportunities for mind games relies entirely on how you think players of that character at that skill level will generally behave and what they might expect you to do. A simple example of a mind game mid set would be doing the same option multiple times to make it seem like this is just what you do, and then switching to something that punishes their reaction to that option. Of course, if a player is good enough, option selects and careful defensive play can negate a lot of mind games, but overall they are very useful especially at intermediate levels of play and you even see them at high levels from time to time, though generally they are more of complex than the example I gave.
I think LK's point is that "mind games" in this definition is so integral to fighting games that its much better to call it what is is: options. After you step past level of understanding the basics of the game, you are competent at piloting your character, and you understand what your opponents character does, you are both playing mind games, especially in traditional fighters like SF and Tekken.
At the moment I'm playing Tekken with a friend whos a bit higher ranked than me, and after playing hundreds of matches, there will be times where be both just stand still with 5 HP waiting for the opponent to do something. You can call it mind games, but we've already been playing mind games for the past hundred matches, its constant evaluation of what option I picked, how they reacted, what were my other options, what did they pick, was I aware of that option, etc.
Another point about mind games is that sometimes there are no mind games, some people play fighting games like they are single player games, they use their flow charts, and if it gets countered, they find a better flow chart. There's no mind game to play there, but that's a sign of lower level of play, and it still boils down to options for the opponent.
One of my favourite tips that I've been given is if you're struggling against a certain character constantly (Mine was Anji), have a play and practice as that character. Even if you don't go super in-depth, it helps you get a feel for their moves and strings and seeing it from the other side can help find gaps in their kit!
One piece of advice that really stuck with me that i think about since I was told it is "pick the strongest character that you think is cool" in terms of being a competitive player. It sets you up the best while still letting you enjoy the game.
Then there are the unfortunate sods who are inherently attracted to playing low tiers.
The One Piece is real 🏴☠️🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅
one piece
@@AirLancer Guilty as charged. 😔
One Piece
🤨
The power of internal motivation is ridiculously good. It is one of those things that not many people realize but it keeps you sane and motivated with what you're trying to do. Fighting games, YT, drawing, fitness. It will all get MUCH more bareable when you pat yourself on the back for something awesome you managed to do.
Maybe you finally got that combo memorized. Maybe you edited a footage in a cool way. Maybe you finally drew a hand that was not a total abomination. Or maybe you did a nice clean deadlift.
It is my number one tool when I work on anything at this point.
Funnily enough, a lot of people have been saying it but using different words. Like Arnold Schwartzenegger who talked about naysayers. In a way that was about focusing on your goal and achieving success in your own way. You do what you feel like you have to do. Also most people dont care. Best example is how a lot of famous celebrities have almost no friends.
But also balance it out as when you do get feedback try to understand where they are coming from and improve. Unless they are trolling.
This got very heavy and we were just watching a Fighting Game video.
Much love, LordKnight. Stay awesome.
Yep, this is called intrinsic motivation in psychology terms. Other one is extrinsic motivation.
The no mine games only options reminds me of Bobby Fischer talking about chess: "I dont believe in psychology. I believe in good moves."
The part where you talk about internal versus external motivators, and particularly how you talk about it, is extremely powerful. You are touching on some very deep stuff there. Thank you for taking the time to articulate that so well, and for giving such great examples. The portion where you mention how you've been driven by spite and anger, and how that has the potential to burn someone out is incredibly valuable knowledge and you talk about it in a way that reveals so much to me. I sincerely hope that many, many people listen to this. You live up to your name in a way that is rare and irreplicable. I have the highest respect for you and what you've said here.
Importance of playing in neutral. People have a very weird tendency to learn games from very spectacular combos. This was especially noticeable to me when I returned to this genre after a two-year break, and I was basically climbing in ranked from very bottom. Great, you can do a combo that will eat half bar, but what if your opponent understands the game in neutral and knows that he has to wait out your turn, or just know how to whiff you. Just learn three simple combos that will cover AA, mid and corner, and spend the rest of time learning basics. Something that will remain with you until the end, because you can easily transfer it to other games.
I remember when I was still in Gold in SF6 and I came across a few Kimberly's and Akuma's doing entire strings on the very first opening that they'd get. Even if it was the very first hit they got. Burning themselves out in the process. (I was like "wtf? Why would you do this") and they wouldn't know what to do after being burnt out. I still won the sets lmao
As a mostly casual FG player I can confirm, this is one of the most important areas of the game, which I can tell because I'm bad at it and lose a lot. Just like, fundamentals. Neutral, pressure, defense, all the bits of a fighting game that are less glamorous. My biggest problem is that I don't know *how* to get better at it.
@@daniellemurnett2534 Figure out your spacing, practice using pokes at their maximum range. Also practice against an enemies spacing, learn what their maximum ranges are. Figure out when it’s your turn, learn the frames, and how to use frames to your advantage. A huge part of neutral also comes down to learning and recognizing what your opponent is doing. You have to pay attention to their habits and what options they are using. Like for example; in tekken let’s say you jab someone once, what does the opponent do after? Do they block? Jab back? Sidestep? Etc. Once you can expect someone’s option you can figure out how to counter it, and for the majority of fighting game players they will not change their habits. Same applies for how you’re playing, don’t become predictable and try not to lean on flowcharts. This is all easier said than done, but play long enough like this and neutral will become way more controllable
As a casual - I like doing longer and harder combos so I try to learn at least one of those, a few bnbs and anti airs and get going from there. But I don't really get frustrated when losing.
I definitely see the argument if you want to skip straight into learning fundamentals and the game mechanics though.
one thing i struggle with as a perennial beginner in fighting games is trying to learn the properties of my character’s moves and how to interact with the system mechanics rather than memorizing a million different combos for different situations, but i still haven’t been able to achieve this in a fighting game yet. i’m also really inconsistent with how often i play, which stops me from making progress
I've started playing fighting games last year, and started with MK11, then Strive, then SF6, and then Tekken 8. The only thing that helps with feeling competent is just play time. There is some structured learning you can do, and following content outside of the game can help you familiarize yourself with situations that you have no encountered, but at the end of the day, the biggest hurdle is just putting in the time to play the game.
The reality is that someone who has 100 more matches than you has seen probably 500 more unique interactions than you did. Someone with 1000 more matches has seen probably 2500 more unique interactions. Until you actually encounter an interaction multiple times, you won't know how to respond to it, and that's fine, because it means you can just play the game, get used to it, and then later see what didn't work.
@@radumotrescu3832 this is so obvious but so important, and it extends to things like spending all your time in training mode instead of actually playing the game (this is my issue). It doesn't matter if I can consistently do B2 loops or Acid Rain with Lee in practice mode if I can only get one solid launch (that I actually recognize and pick up) per match and don't know what to use Acid Rain against. Once I actually started _playing the video game,_ I was able to improve _way_ faster. Again, this is so painfully obvious to anyone with more than 2 braincells to rub together, but it's still worth mentioning.
@@Wolfgang_von_Caelid its not obvious for people who like the competitive aspect but are intimidated by the competition itself, like me. It took me a lot of hours of sc2, chess and fighters to get to this really obvious conclusion: just play the game if its fun, if its not, take a break, if after a break its still not fun then maybe its not for you, ranked is just a way to get fair opponents, and quick play is a-ok
In Magic they have this idea of psychological player archetypes. Timmy/Tammy may for example want to win by playing the biggest creature in the game, even though it sucks from a competitive standpoint; just because it's cool. Johnny/Jenny wants to show off by winning with complex interactions. Spike wants to win no matter how. I feel like those archetypes exist in fighting games too. I'm not saying it's *wrong* to set the goal of wanting to be the best, but even for competitive people I think it's a goal that can just make you unhappy if it means not getting to play the character that inspires you. I don't think that clashes with what you said, just wanted to add it.
I've never been that competitive, so I'm not sure I'd tell myself anything other than that fgc people are just generally cool and happy to help out beginners. I could've probably progressed much faster if I'd talked more to experienced players early on.
he made comparisons with these a few times !
Yeah, when LK was talking about character loyalty it made me think for INO-Daru, like yeah maybe he could win with a stronger character but there’s something special about achieving it your way with the character you like and want to see win. Or another guy whose name escapes me, who refused to play Adon in sf4 because he hated his voice.
You don’t need to be good to play in tournament. Playing in tournaments can help you get good
Found your content like a month ago and damn man. Great vibes, great advice, great perspectives. A lot of the stuff here resonates, not just in this video but across your recent content.
This video really helped quantify exactly the issues I've been hvaing with strive in the past few months, I take some form of break and get rusty and regress while friends who play way more progress way beyond me, leading to me not being able to properly quantify and perceive what I should be aiming for, leading to getting swept up in goals that are way too far or getting way too attached to needing to accomplish anything such that I crash super hard when I fail them. That plus playing baiken and watching her just feel worse and worse over time leading to a lot of "I know where I am making mistakes, but also see places to blame the character" getting very frustrated with how much more reward everyone else seems to get compared to her and how so many amtchups baiken just kinda stops functioning in neutral it feels like, but there's the sunk cost fallacy of playing her for 2 years that trying to switch I feel so much less experienced and have to relearn so much, it's tough but I think I can try to re aim my goals and do better.
Vetting info is so important but very hard as a low skill player. I couldn't even tell if a combo I found worked or not since I didn't know how it was supposed to work. Thankfully there are active people in the character discord that helped me out.
You: "You are not locked into your main"
Me: These boys ain't loyal...
Sub zero, akuma, hwoarang, yoshimitsu since day one till my grave! 🗣️🗣️
@@Codename_aether it's time to switch off your mains ! 😈
You know LK is a melee oldhead because he had to deal with "you gotta improve your mindgames" feedback
For me mind games is a conditioning thing. You set up expectations, and then break them. Yes, it involves options. You have certain options you can take, so you condition the opponents to 3 or the 4 options, then scarcely do the 4th. Now they are afraid of a 4th option you don't use much because of it's danger, and act to stop something that isn't likely to happen, when they probably shouldn't be. That's mind games to me.
Motivation is so important. If the game itself isn't intrinsically motivating for you, then it will be very hard to continue to play long-term. I boot up Street Fighter and just enjoy training mode, casual matches, ranked matches (win or lose) for what they are. If I didn't I wouldn't be able to play day-in, day-out for years on end.
That's not to say that every part of it must be enjoyable. I've had painful hours in training trying to learn specific techniques. But my motivation for doing that is that knowing them will bring me more enjoyment long-term.
You can say the term "mind games", was the real mind game that mind gamed you all those years ago.
I feel like the problem with calling it mindgames is that it assumes that every opponent is on the same level that you are. Certain players are not gonna get mind gamed because they don't care about the mind game to begin with. Their gonna pick whatever option they want regardless if its wrong or right. Its only really a mindgame if you know your opponent starts overthinking.
I love your advice! The last one is just life advice that helps with more than just fighting games and its good to hear so I appreciate it. 🙏
Dude, I haven't thought of DC++ in so long. Thank you for bringing back memories.
this video was awesome. as someone who got into competitive melee back in around the same time as you then transitioned to the overarching fgc around dbfz, a lot of this rings very true.
Here's a lesson I had to learn personally:
When you start having success, ESPECIALLY if the way you achieve success is with unorthodox play, there are some people who are going to be mad. They are going to try and discredit your results and your success any way they can, and say anything imaginable to put you down and discourage you from continuing what you're doing.
The advice? Fuck those fuckers, and don't let them demotivate you. They lost. You didn't. They are probably also the kinds of people who play competitive team games and blame everyone else when they lose. They're not saying these things because you're bad; they're saying these things to cope with their losses while avoiding accountability for them.
Source/Cred: I was the pariah of the Vampire Savior community when it first appeared on GGPO, lol.
Honestly if someone says you have a bizzare playstyle and it works you should probably keep doing it, you can be good at the game and play weird and I think even if you don't win the most you will probably end up being well liked
Games like Vampire Savior are unorthodox to begin with. These games are meant to get the best out of you no matter what your play style will be.
Love this kind of content, I'm sure it helps plenty of grow because they can relate
The amount of shit I read about mk11, which was my first game, that was total bs, is amazing. Luckily I'm older than most people will get into fighting games and my experience helped me realize this. But endless bad info is out there it's wild.
2 point kind of resonated with me. The execution one and the you are not commited to your main. I've always picked high execution or just hard character in general with the mentality of "if I can play the hardest character... I can probably play anyone right" ....oh how wrong I was. That cost me so many tournaments too. But the funny thing also was... I swap such character out and boom.... wins. One thing that I wish I knew when I started was to be patient and learn how to defend as well as you want to press offense. That has been one of the hardest lessons I've tought myself and I still struggle till this day. After all.... I didn't pay $60 dlrs to block right
"Mind games" to me has always conjured the idea of tricking your opponent into doing what you want (and are prepared to punish them for doing) by making them think you're going to do something you're not. So, what the FGC outside the Smash community tends to call "Conditioning," basically, feels like it means the same thing and is perhaps clearer in communicating how it works.
I think the motivation section really resonated with me because I fall into that trap a lot, it starts to be disheartening whether i win or fail because I not getting any love from my peers when I should be raising myself up instead of waiting for others. Also the part about not being tied to a main, I'm working on that but I genuinely can't find another character I mess with in strive right besides testament, but I do tried to play different types of characters in other games. Great vid!
Great advices, useful video
I think it’s important to point out that mind games or “options” only really comes into play if both players know what is possible. So at times you need to show or condition the opponent into seeing you have said option so that you may subvert their expectations
One thing I really wish I learned earlier is to keep things very concrete. I'd ask myself stuff like "how do I improve my neutral?/did I play footsies good?" or "how do i guess better when I need to take pressure?" They are too vague to be quickly actionable, especially for a beginner. I improved SO much quicker when I kept things to stuff I could see on the screen. I can see in a replay what I get hit by, and its often clear why. Turns out blocking for 2 hits and then mashing got me killed alot more than missing some mystical footsies wisdom.
I main ryu in sf6 but they did a zangief only tournament a while back that i entered on a whim. And during my practice for the tournament i realized that i really liked how gief plays in 6 compared to previous games. And i use him just as much now and i actually win more with him lol. I still cant play charge characters to save my life
Been married to the idea of a main for awhile playing fighting games, but with you saying to try other characters (and my friends saying a bunch too) I might actually try branching out a bit.
There is one thing that I would tell my past self that will help everybody at about anything they are trying to get seriously better at. It's a saying that goes "Comparison is killer of progress." When I first started running track I would compare my times and jumps to everybody around me instead of just focusing on myself. I would have progressed so much faster if instead of comparing myself to my peers I just put in the work and tried to see small amounts of progress everyday. Fortunately, I figured this out in the summer after my first season, so I didn't continue hindering my growth.
Haha I watched this even though I'm in my late 30s, have only been learning fgs for about 4 years after a LONG time of just casual button mashing. I rarely enter tourneys and when I do, it's just to support the scene and try not to go 0-2. Having said that, this video has useful info in general for anyone looking to improve.
Mind games is abusing the human tendency to recognize patterns - in essence, you pretend to have "obvious" patterns to use your opponents adaptation against them. Thereby manipulating what the best option is in your opponents head
The problem with moving off your main, is remembering stuff, imo. In smash, I can play anyone, cuz the inputs are all the same, but when I play Strive I'm just Nago. I did learn Axl once, but I'll be darned if I remember any of his inputs. Excited for 2XKO though!
If I could go back and tell myself anything, when I was getting into them. It would probably be something to the effect of:
"Gonna be real with you, if you're serious about improving at the game. The rank and wins don't matter. They'll kind of just come, as you confront stuff. So the only thing that'll ever matter for real is this: You need to learn what kind of fun you want to have and build from there. Everything else will follow."
Fuck combos lol, thats what i wouldve told my beginner self. I cared way to much about hitting crazy flashy stuff when i was starting out. It really held me back for a long time
Things i would tell my younger self about fighting games.
1. Dont play them lol
2. Play every archetype/character earlier
3. Watch your replays more
4.dont be as mean to yourself mentally. Try to be more objective. it's not that deep.
Why don't play them?
@friendlyanomaly6109 I kinda a joke but on a serious note they can be mentally/emotionally challenging the deeper you get because you care the more you play it can be a hard balance of caring enough to keep playing and improving but not caring so much it starts taking away Fom other areas in your life
Seeing BBCT in his first few videos hurt my soul a little... Great game for the time but god did it age poorly... Fun concepts... Lacking in other areas...
At least it created the groundwork for a series that hasn't had a new entry in nearly 10 years (BBCF came out in 2015, and we don't count BBTAG or BBEE)
Something new players should know is that they shouldn't pick a character for the wrong reasons.
Don't pick a character you hate playing because some dork on the internet told you top/high tier players are lame/carried. Or conversely you pick a low tier because you think it makes you cooler and lets you pull the "i play a low tier" option select card when you lose.
idk why but all fighting games ive tried i gravitate to the "low tiers" but not because theyre a low tier, i just think they have interesting gameplay/design yada yada (a good example is testament and bedman? in ggst) but in my opinion, tier list are stupid and you can truly win as any character if youre good enough
I guess the biggest one for me is "Abusing the stuff that's in the game", which I am still struggling with today.
I would refuse to use certain mechanics/strategies that I deemed "unfair" because I didn't want to rely on a crutch and beat the opponent fair and square so they have none of the excuses I would make in their stead.
Naturally, if you don't even win because you let the opponent do the "unfair" stuff to you then who cares?
I guess another one would be "Holding back when it's apparent my opponent isn't having fun fighting me" but that's more of a personal thing due to growing up with brothers that would stop playing if it's not fun for them. Don't know how many other folks have that experience but it haunts me.
I kinda get that, but mostly in the modern context of I don't do certain things because I can tell that this is getting nerfed as hell in the future patch and it's only gonna be good for a short time.
This is the same cope that low tier players use. Nothing wrong with low tiers in general though.
The best option is only the best option as long as it works consistently with minimal risk. After it no longer consistently works, the best option is the one they least expect.
This could be called conditioning, or the evolving meta, but I’d like to compare these concepts to mind games today.
To me mind games is getting in your opponents head and breaking mental stack, staying unpredictable.
It could be as simple as a shimmy, the only reasons shimmy’s work is because of expectations.
Or it could be throw looping, if the opponent dosent expect a second throw but takes both, they assume/expect there’s no way a third throw comes. And that’s why it’s possible to throw a knowledgeable player 5 times in a row and melt their health bar. This is to me more of a mindgame than a mix up.
I mainly play mortal kombat, and another mind game we do to bait out punishable options is if the opponent is looking to do something off your mistake like teleport and punish or fatal blow, we will stand in neutral and press our fastest button and block or backdash, they react to the button but don’t get the punish. So we use their state of mind against them, this is partly a read, partly a bait, all mindgame.
Or sometimes we even t bag in neutral to get under their skin and push them to make mistakes and take risks because they are tilted.
Yes shimmy, throw looping and baiting are all common concepts on their own and to some could be considered mixups or just options.
I believe using these techniques effectively comes down to if it gets into the opponents head and messes with their expectations/reactions. Because if they do, that’s when these options become most consistent.
This connects with your original best options, giving you a secondary flowchart to fall back on and ensuring you stay ahead of the mental stack.
If you can make someone expect an option and withhold it, thereby gaining advantage from a decision made in the past, you are currently the player with the edge in my opinion.
If I were to guess, I think people being committed to their mains (ignoring things like story/source material) is some form of sunk cost fallacy. At least I remember trying to switch off of Anji in Strive and trying out characters like Millia, Leo or Bridget was awkward and more than once I went back to Anji, because he felt familiar.
Did you just reupload this?
I could have sworn i just heard you talking about the execution aspect of fighting games with this exact evo story
Learning by yourself with minimal to no external input is definetly important (and not just for fighting games). To gain guidance one must first gather enough questions and accumulate deep personal insight. Experiment first, learn later.
Interesting subject, & good examples.
True on execution. I try to practice & use good combos, while not having them drop from difficulty.
Goals are usually the ranked trophy, though I never reached it for MvCI. 😑 SFV gold took 5 years. 😐 But internal's most important.
I've never got out of pools for an online or offline tournament, which is fine. Well, SF6 Iron (not my ranked goal) Tournament in Battle Hub- I got to finals. 😉Fun vid.
One thing i wish i knew b4 i started was that if you subscribe to LK your character goes up a tier and other people on FGC twitter think less poorly of themselves. They still think you are ass, but their self-esteem gets boosted somehow.
Just because you aren't doing a big damage combo doesn't mean you shouldn't be playing the character. My first intro into actually playing fighting games against others was with bbcs, and i kept switching characters because i couldn't do a combo that would match what my friend who already had been playing for a while could do with one move... he was playing Tager.
Conditioning, pattern recognition, and the ability to gauge your opponent's emotional state are to me what make up mind games.
Mind games (which I personally roll into gambling, high balling, or just plain callouts) are functionally opting for exploitative play vs game-theoretically optimal options.
We've talked about this in terms of risk/return constantly at the higher level of play in the FGC, but I think its critical to recognize that whether or not you opt to play explicitly towards whatever nash equilibrium exists in a given situation (hard to solve, requires a lot of discipline regardless) rather than opting towards a read ("I *know* this dude is gonna do X/Y/Z so I'll do A/B/C). As an aside, the FGC in general *heavily* trends towards exploitative play, given the short set count, the general lack of knowledge of the player base, and the fact that execution (ability to even physically perform the optimal thing) and reactions (same as above, but with variance even at the highest level, and something you can impact via mental stacking and practice) exist, rather than a pure turn based game that's fully and neatly solvable.
Awesome analysis! But I have one question, are there really game-theoretically optimal options in most modern fighting games?
I think that Tekken 7 was the closest we ever got to this, because defense was so incredibly strong. A strong player like Arslan who had a specific poke heavy safe style on a character like Kazumi was probably the scariest matchup in Tekken history, but that was due to system mechanics, balance decisions, infinite stages etc. And that type of playstyle ultimately paved the way for Tekken 8 to be more coin-flippy because tournaments got boring at the end of its lifespan.
But other than that, it feels like most pro players play that way, with very small room for error. But at some point, you will have to guess or make a read, that's what makes fighting games different from chess.
@@radumotrescu3832
Great points about T7, and I'd agree. This was additionally part of the issues people had with characters like Leroy or Fahk, who not only forced you guess constantly, but could load mental stacks easily, quickly, and reliably, and leads into my other point:
When I say game theoretically optimal, I'm *mostly* talking about Nash equilibria right? I.E. options which picked over the course of hundreds or thousands of games will yield the highest EV or expected value. 'Easy' example might be something like Nago roundstart RPS back in S2 (when DP was functionally uninteractable for like 2/3rds of the case), wherein you might (after a bit of math) come to the conclusion you should should DP say...63% of the time, backdash beyblade 22% of the time, and 2S the remainder. These numbers are entirely fabricated, but the idea is that by showing those options with that level of regularity, you could earn the highest 'return' (combo damage into a favorable situation into another interaction point where *that* is calculated as % outcome multiplied by return, iterated to the game end point) ON AVERAGE. This would be hugely dependent on simplifying assumptions like reaction time, your ability to not drop a BNB, the opponent's ability to ALSO play around their solved nash equilibria, and so on. This doesn't really happen in game.
In game, you see me do roundstart DP, and next round usually either dash block and force me to spend blood in a different interaction wherein I *don't* know the solved NE, and neither do you, and we both try to gather information on each other's understanding of the situation, or backdash/give up space to ignore the situation entirely.
Most strong players have a mix of spots they understand well (labbed and mathed out) and places where they get more value out of exploitive play (watching the screen, gathering data, and making a read). Just because the math is very frustrating and complicated doesn't mean game theoretically optimal options *don't* exist, only that they're hard to figure out. Devs are trying to simplify this by improving conversion ability, raising damage, and lowering the amount of requisite system knowledge required (think unifying character weights, hurt box normalization, and homogenization of wakeup timings).
TL;DR: yeah they exist but it's a little complicated
Good video 👍👍
Its no fun to just pick whoever is "best" and roll in tournaments
Shoutout to Sonic R OST
I'm trying to learn venom in rev 2 and +r, i wish there was more footage of N-O
17:45 i think you are very cool
Noel Vermillion is so much fun to play. I never realized that she kinda busted😅 You truly get more out of a fighting game when you use multiple characters.
As a casual player, I love the idea of dropping "mind games" from the vocab, if only for the mental fortitude it provides. Humans are notoriously terrible for ascribing meaning to statistical events that are very likely over a long enough period of time, especially streaks. There's a reason throw throw throw shimmy highlights feel so powerful, because it feels like they really had the other person's number.
But did they, or was it just two people guessing with a particular skillset and that sort of thing just... happens. Don't let them into your head and they'll have no power over you.
hey, Ryan Hart's son, great video as always. keep it up
I play Valorant, LoL, and OW2 competitively. Just started playing sf6 and strive COMPLETE fighting game beginner. I always understood mindgames as things you as the player can do to disrupt the opponents thinking or (flowchart in fgc). Please tell me, is shimmying considered mind-gaming? In PC games it would be considered a mind game.
Yes, I would think so. Shimmying requires you to get into the head of the opponent, observing that they tend to throw tech often/fuzzy throw tech. Then once you understand what option they’re taking, you can try to shimmy for a risky but rewarding punish. The real mind games come from whether or not the opponent tries to adapt, if you adapt preemptively to them adapting, etc…
mindgames is me using a level 1 super twice in a row
bc who would expect a 2nd one
A few questions. How do you consistently perform combos under pressure? In training mode, I can execute some combos, but in a match its like adrenaline and nervousness kicks in and I can never get it right. Is there any training solution? Second, does learning how to play an instrument vastly improve the ability to perform combos? Can musicians find the right tempo for each combo and execute very well? Or is a musical sense of rhythm not necessary for fighting games?
I'm just some guy who's only been into fighting games for a few years, but to answer your questions - getting consistent with combos under pressure just comes from practicing doing them under pressure. If you're trying a new combo that you feel comfortable with in training mode, do your best to execute it in a match. If you can, try to focus not on winning the match, but doing the combo. Consider that a "win" in your mind. Play on an unranked mode or against friends if you can, it'll take some of the pressure off. And try to understand that even the best players drop combos under pressure sometimes, and that learning something in training mode and then learning to do it in a match are two separate steps to learning. One way to bridge the gap between doing combos in training mode and in a real match is to try to do the combo on a CPU. This is one of the few things practicing against CPUs is good for. It'll let you practice going into a combo during different situations and reacting to what's happening onscreen instead of always doing the combo in a set, predictable way. You'll notice some improvement as you keep trying to land the combo in a game, and then eventually it'll become second nature. As well, the more you play in the situations that make you nervous, whether it's online ranked, in a tournament, etc, the less nervous you'll become as you get used to them.
I think having experience playing a musical instrument, especially something that uses mainly your fingers, can be very helpful to learning fighting game execution. You'll already be used to doing complicated inputs with your fingers to a certain rhythm, and the structure of practicing an instrument and practicing fighting game combos is similar. But it's something that anyone can learn. Whether you learn that by playing an instrument or learning a fighting game, you'll be able to learn it. I would say that having an "innate" musical skill or previous experience as a musician is not necessary for fighting games. It's just something you may have to spend a bit more time practicing than someone who already has some experience doing something similar.
nah none of these really resonate, i'm just not trying to become a pro player that's all.
i think personally the biggest problem starting out in any pvp game is the weird notion you have to grind knowledge and execution in order to start playing online to enjoy the game, that never were the case in any game until online and auto matchmaking became a thing.
back then the main draw of all of these pvp competitive games were the casual aspect, either playing against or with a buddy at home or playing against the cpu, and seriously i don't think that have changed.
i think to begin with for all these pvp games you are ment to play the cpu til you can easily beat it regardless of difficulty level typically and then move onto the online experience because the cpu can't offer you anymore challenge and that is only if you want to go online, now i'm not saying you shouldn't go online instantly, you definitly can if you want to.
but as someone who have been a beginner in many genres and really ran up against a wall more than once when it comes to knowledge and execution checks specifically when it relates to online pvp games, those checks often take up so much of my time that i get typically fed up with the game before i even sit down to play them because it's not about enjoying the game it's just grinding skill so i could eventually come to enjoy it and i would just burn out on the grind to try and become competent online, and then it hit me, i never did this as a kid and i had a great time and i learned way more smoothly and in a more entertaining way by just messing around playing vs the cpu or some arcade stuff or the campaign or storymode and not really caring about becoming a competent online player, i just became competent after playing against the cpu for fun after a long enough time, that's how i found my mains initially, by simply just playing.
and i think just maybe this new generation have kinda lost sight of that, i know i did for a long time.
Big fan, but I think that weird interpretation of Mind Games was a you thing lol.
Then again, I started with SF, where there's not that much weird "random" shit you can do and the way baiting and high risk options work are a lot more clear cut and obvious. So maybe that was just something easier to get in that environment.
It's always me. I need to learn fighting game basics hard and master shotos. I'm a dad with little time on my hands, so idk where to start, really. Mostly I just try not to mash. Lol
I work a ton and love fighters, all you can do is practice a little daily ( like 5 mins of execution ) and play matches when you got some free time, I feel yoilu
@k-ondoomer Thanks for the boost! Right now I want to learn one basic 3-hit combo and be able to Shoryuken 100% of the time.
@BlueJGilbert when I first played sf4 in 2010, I couldn't do a single fireball, by the time I finished I was doing 1 frame links no problem. The human brain has an amazing ability to develop skills no matter how trivial they are. You can do it if you want it
If the game isn't fun/is no longer fun then stop playing
Maybe you're on such a losing streak that it's more stressful than fun, maybe the game got a new system mechanic that ruins your enjoyment, maybe you reached a level of play where you realize how degenerate it is, among others
In cases like these it's ok to drop the game and move to a different one (unless you're a pro player whose livelihood is on that game then idk)
I've been feeling this way with GBVSR where the game is more annoying and frustrating than fun and it's sad but I simply cannot play that game anymore, the system mechanics along with some specific characters in the game just ruin it for me
Game's are meant to be fun, if it's not then why bother... or something, idr the exact quote
I can relate on granblue sadly. I love that game but recently I noticed that I seem to just hate most of the cast as well as some system choices among other things too.
You really gotta know not to stick to your main. I stuck with Ult marth out of pride and him looking cool. Sometimes, the glove just doesn’t fit
So my character crisis is a power and not a setback? I've been viewing fighting games wrong this whole time! I find many characters cool so it's really hard to pick a main, guess I'll just play them all.
Right on the title of this video, the number one thing you would have wished you should have known is that Smash is not a fighting game. That makes the top spot of the list for sure.
How do you get such white teeth? Did you get veneers or go to the dentist for whitening?
DC++ mentioned 👴
Play every day, that's it.
Fighting Games were arguably never about balance. That's something I feel like nobody talks about. I was looking at Street Fighter 2 matchups history and they they were Ryu and Ken. Which quickly made me think "If Fighting Games is all about Balance why are their Clone characters with similar moves but with better properties and stats?" the answer was Street Fighter 1. A truly balanced fighting game is completely different. We all use the game Footsie as general idea how a game will feel but I feel like games like Footsies doesn't emulate the true experience. A mirror match can happen but is generally something most players avoid because they'd rather have a "Better Matchup" than go "Even". Dhalsim vs Zangief exists very intentionally for a very long time. It's like what's happening in those more "Realistic Medieval" games where you have a wide variety of weapons at your disposal that all do different things. We're playing a "Mixed Martial Arts/Weapons" simulator in a sense. So we're going to be wildly inbalanced but due to how characters are designed that's arguably how it should be. It's hard to just admit at times "Damn my character is just not meant to have good matchups".
Its funny melee is a substantially harder game than most fighting games but fighting games look far harder.
Anyways my biggest personal problem with fighting games is remembering combos. I just have a bad memory. I can spend an hour practicing one combo and then the next day I forget I even practiced it. Add on top of that, that I dont like to play just 1 character and its not good.
I have the exact same problem but I think Im starting to realize who I really wanna play
your chat mixed the fuck outta me with a smooth hour of forced timeout.
Use mindgames
read the video ID 👁👁
"there's no mind games, only option sets" is the most boring, soul-sucking, boil-all-of-what-fun-emotional-brain-stuff-is-even-still-left-at-high-level-play-into-ever-more-solitarily-math-brain-shit ive ever heard
:)
first :0
Nuuuuuuu
Second :(
Third :3
Old
time for the downvotes (i am fouth)
These sorts of thumbnails are super gay and not in a good way stop it
I think another plus of playing multiple characters is counterplay knowledge. When you play a sub character, you sometimes find how people can stuff their offence. You can then implement this yourself when you go up against them.
it's thanks to "garbage info" that my info network hella shrunk. i also feel like some who give bad advice about the game/characters don't want you to get better. and internal motivation is something i hella lack, so i should work on that. thanks for the vid. :3
I’m using all these points for Fatal Fury CotW as it’ll be my first fatal fury game 🫡