Overrated or Underrated Fighting Game Attacks (with Sajam)
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- Опубликовано: 25 июн 2024
- #fightinggames #streetfighter6 #guiltygear
I asked @SupermanSajam to come on the channel to talk about whether types of fighting game attacks are overrated or underated. In this video we talk about both game specific mechanics and general tactics.
0:00 - intro
0:40 - neutral skips
4:25 - projectile yrc (Guilty Gear Xrd)
7:45 - focus attack (SF4)
12:25 - interactables (Injustice)
16:07 - drive rush (SF6)
21:08 - dash blocking
25:38 - super dash (DBFZ
32:40 - dive kicks
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Edited by ChadDrawsThings - / chaddrawsthings
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#gaming #lordknight 
Игры
Thank you to Lord @supermansajam for coming on! Been a while since we did a collaboration so I wanted to try something new.
Like I said at the END of the video, lemme know your takes too!
(also pls subscribe)
Sajam will forever be a Chipotle employee in my heart
hey gamer, you want some extra guac with that?
Get the extra guac gamer, you'll need the energy to get out of pools
It’s his natural habitat
He sure knows how to make a sandwich
The carne asada is back
Ambushing Sajam with Neutral Skips as first topic is peak meanboy and it's great.
skipped the neutral conversation
Coming from the platform fighter scene it’s really struck me how different the power level of a dive kick is. In platform fighters dive kicks are generally pretty bad. Everyone has directional influence in the air/multiple jumps/fast-fall/potentially a million other ways to mix up their air approach, your opponent doesn’t have to worry about it being an overhead, dive kicks are hard to land as an air to air which matters a lot more and if you whiff you end up vulnerable on the ground, they generally kill you if used off stage, and platform fighters usually have landing lag which means even low spaced dive kicks are often unsafe. Meanwhile in traditional fighting games they are extremely strong if not very carefully balanced.
To add to this, all that control you have over your air movement in plat fighters is completely lost if you dive kick. You give up all control over your character for a linear and laggy move that often doesn't even lead to anything.
@@kekker_ definitely that’s another big part of it! dive kicks tend to lock you out of air movement options in platform fighters, even if they are an air normal which normally would allow you to keep complete control during the move outside of jumping or using a mobility special or something. Not to mention that most of them are replacing a down air which is typically an important move for edge-guarding.
Alternatively, if the dive kick is a special move it’s not so unusual that it locks you out of air options, a lot of them do that. The problem with special move dive kicks is that platform fighters tend to have fewer specials for each character. If you have a special move that moves your character you really want it to be omnidirectional, move forwards, or move up. Definitely down is the least useful, though it depends on the rest of the characters kit and how much they struggle with recovery or being juggled, downward moving specials do help you not be juggled, as long as you don’t also have a dive kick style down-air so you can mix up what you are doing (Sorry Bowser). Interestingly this makes the best “dive kicks” in platform fighters omni-directional moves that happen to have a down-forward variation. Sephiroth Slash/Omnislash is a good example.
stall n falls stink
@@PlumEXEbut then I actually find them cool in 2d fighters- slightly changing your momentum when you’re falling with something like Baiken A.D feels so fun to control.
something about saying SFV isnt about mashing with a clip of Abigail on screen is very poetic.
Two of my favorite FGC content creators
as a beginner strive player, i will now start dash blocking at every opportunity
Enjoy your trip to Celestial.
@@kevingriffith6011literally
You love to see it. Both of you have this defining trait of being like "measured veterans" in how you look at games so it's always interesting to see you discuss stuff
Oh shit, Yummy Stew and Majas at it again
it's so funny to me that LK, sajam and tasty steve are all named steve
You’re my hero
Why are these two guys so handsome
Why are you so right and true for this?
Honestly the grey hairs suit Lk so well. Brian_f has looked better than in this vid
Drink water, eat relatively healthy
Get some physical activity in occasionally
Don’t abuse drugs
Mew and Goon daily at least!
They need to have another Dive kick Tourney.
Now that's a EVO throwback game, that and Footies.
DEF Jam
Great collab! It was interesting to hear both of your thoughts on all of these mechanics!
Since it didnt come up during the dash blocking segment, a good example of a game explicitly designed around a lack of dash blocking as an option is Granblue, that game has a dash macro but it can't be used to backdash, and you can only cancel dash with an attack, a forward roll or a spotdodge, all of which are very committal options. You can't perform any safe options immediately out of dash in Granblue, you have to return to neutral before you can block again. Say what you will about the current balance and the addition of 66L, but for the purposes of the discussion I think its worth bringing up.
Nice premise, big fan of this format. Would love to see it for a specific game in the future.
yay love seeing collabs ty your lordships
I think you can argue SF6 IS about mashing, because perfect parry is a super low-risk/high-reward defensive mechanic that warps offensive interactions just as much as drive rush warps neutral. You see high level players mashing on parry all the time to fish for a perfect parry into backthrow, for example
Love these two, hope you find a reason to do another collab in the future.
You both have analysis that's very beginner friendly and we can always use more of that in the FGC.
Loved this one. Would love to see this one again with Ketchup and/or Mustard
This is like the infinity war of my niche interests
That interactables bit was phenomenal
Lord Knight salt and pepper pattern looking kinda S tier
Very interesting video!! Love hearing what you guys think of this.
Genius video idea
As someone who plays potemkin and nago primarily, the dash blocking conversation was really enlightening... And alien
Good video as always. Agree that divekicks are "rated"(lol,) but I think if you expanded the scope of the topic to include anything that alters your jump arc, it would be "underrated". The directness and simplicity of the divekick I think elevates it in that category.
love the videos; it might be redundant but as an outside FGC member of these games, it's kind of hard to know what some mechanics are from not playing the games but still interested in knowing about them. It was fun hearing about your takes but would be even more fun with some context even if quickly explained. just a slight suggestion, keep it up!
I love this video concept! I feel like there's still plenty of room for more content here so I'm hoping to see more of this in the future. Looking at specific moves is fun of course, but it felt like we were seeing a little repeat of moves and it occasionally felt a bit less interactive between you and the guest when one of you maybe wasn't very familiar with the game (I still love those videos though). This felt like a very natural discourse where both parties can more easily play off one another.
Cheers LK, keep up the good work.
Banger video!
Also, while SF6 is not about 'mashing,' the current version makes blocking very scary lol.
The lil face in the bottom right corner when you go full screen is hilarious 😂
In sf6 characters blessed w a teleport for a DR can throw a projectile then follow behind it. It’s not a 1:1 comparison w projectile into YRC but it feels similar since DR in SF6 eats inputs.
Drive rush only eats your drive parry and drive rush inputs, this is a very niche scenario. Do your research next time, Broski has a good video breaking down this misconception.
I would have loved to hear your opinions on superjumping. I barely hear anything about it!
Banger video
Sajam's video "Injustice 1 Was a Real Video Game That People Played Competitively for Money" is still one of my favourites that he's ever made.
"You also may be wondering, 'what combos does this character do?' No."
This topic is perfect for jaded OG peeps like myself who *know* whats OD in fighters, but is sick of hearing about it. BUT could go on for hours about like 1 move they had to deal with and just wondered how it never got brought up.
Like my fav example is Hyde 6B, if you're a proper UNI player that move is insanely good and you love or hate it, but you'll never hear a scrub tell you they think its stupid and should be nerfed just cause its not that obvious until you get better.
As a potemkin -- yes. Dash blocking is *infuriating*. My neutral is already poor enough and generally committal. Throw in a gio just doing nothing but dash block and backdash until I make the mistake of pressing a button and the game just becomes rage-inducing. I can't even do the same.
I know the answer is to just get a life lead and be defensive, but the answer is mind-numbingly boring. It leads to very long rounds and overall uninteractive gameplay when fighting someone who's entire game plan revolves around such a playstyle.
Pleasantly surprised and glad dash blocking actually gets mentioned. When all the newcomers to Strive (I'm asuming, because I hope there is barely any players who experienced multiple FGs to actually want that) started demanding dash macros being in every other game going forward I was flabbergasted because:
1.) not every fighting game has to work the same way
2.) the implications it has on defense and neutral with how easily accessible it is with basically zero room for error are huge
Once a game has strong dash blocks it can become hella annoying to deal with.
I don't think I'm skilled/smart enough at fighting games to give a super informed opinion, but since you asked:
Neutral Skips -- Overrated. Like you both said, this is just a part of neutral that you have to learn.
Projectile YRC -- I didn't play Xrd, so I'll just go with a middle response and say rated. I really don't have any grounds to speak on this.
Focus Attack -- Rated. It didn't bother me overmuch at the bottom level of casual play that I experienced.
Interactibles -- Rated. I didn't play Injustice either, so I'll just default to a middle response again.
Drive Rush -- Underrated. Just because it's such a crucial part of the game that makes or breaks you depending on how good your character's Drive Rush is.
Dash Blocking -- Underrated. In games where it appears it's always a strong way to get in on your opponent, in my experience.
Super Dash -- Overrated. Even at my low level there were clear answers to raw Super Dash that you could do, which was what most of the people on my level had complaints about.
Dive Kicks -- Underrated. They're such a powerful approach tool even when they suck.
Lmao Sajam low key called LK out for his DBZF treachery in the past had me actually cackling over here 😂😂😂
I remember SFV Akuma projectile YRC (red fireball V-Trigger cancel on whiff[did you jump?])
14:22 lol the jwong reference
I relied so heavily on SF4 focus attacks. Coming to 6 I'm questioning if I was ever any good.
Londrekia theme let’s gooooo
can we get a video about LK's skincare routine please
I got flashbacks this entire video lol
I could honestly listen to Lord Knight and Sajam chat about fighting games I think literally endlessly. They’re always instant watches for me.
Hell yeah! I've never been this early. GODDAMN!
Secommnd
This is a good video
I took quite a hiatus from Strive. Was quite weird to return and folks said Sin wasn’t trash. Eagerly hopped in and enjoyed the fun minus his still trash a$$ dive kick 35:40
6:57 I'm here playing Slayer wondering where my vote is.
Divekicks make me overthink when a character who has one is in the air, whether I'm controlling them or not.
So what if a game made it so Dash-blocking gives an extra couple frames of block stun if you do it? Assume it works as intended and you still have a dash macro; just a small nerf to Forward dash then press back.
29:30 the staggering might of the phrase "let me open your mind as an aside."
anyway the dash block portion was super interesting. That point might really might influence the design of the next generation of fighting games. Also "interactables could never happen in current year" is probably net good but hearing it makes me sad. Probably a lot of ideas that ALSO can never happen anymore and something of value was probably lost on the way.
SF4 Yun is the reason Lily's condor dive has to be as rough as it is. Being able to dive kick off of a neutral jump is just bananas. They had to make it unsafe on block and not give you any conversions because being able to neutral jump, confirm your opponent has done something you can punish and *then* commit to the jump in is crazy.
Given how weak Lily is. That might help balance her.
Balance weak characters around broken move is good balance design.
@@ironboy89satire?
new jamradio dropped!
12:32 Rewind basically lost a major in grand finals MK11 because he allowed Nicolas to pick a stage with an interactable that favored Kabal and unfavored Kotal Kahn. Now Nicolas is an insane player so if they played on a different stage he still could have won grand finals.
Basically there's a stage where one of the interactables lets you jump for free like absolutely nothing, Kotal is a command grab character and Kabal has an air dash. You can do the math. Interactables be crazy😂😂😂
All of the points about "smash" (has combos, invented power rankings, invented vip rooms, is difficult) only apply to melee. Except the smell thing. That one applies to ultimate as well.
Focus attack is so fucking good and rewarding to master. It doesn't completely skip neutral but rather it adds another layer to the neutral sandwich (defensive, offensive, and focus, which is both). It's super brilliant and feels so good to use.
Projectile YRC is extremely similar to using Ambush Kameos in MK1 right now to cover your frames/mix. Like you get to call in Stryker/Kano, and just do literally anything while being ignorant of their frames, and come out + on block. OH/Low mix, stupid unsafe moves made plus, etc... It warps the game.
And interactables may as well have been like playing Smash with items on LOL. They had NO purpose being in competitive tournaments.
I like that hoodie sajam got
32:04 mk1 if you consider it 2v2
I would like to see someone from a 3d fighting game scene.
Based LK snap was so godlike. They put the worst feature (30f variable timing) on the best feature and I could never look at the game the same.
Also I'm still sad about mbtl dash having startup so you can't really dash block well when all the other aspects of movement feel so incredible.
:O Sajam!
Strive also has a ton of plus frames and a ton of special cancels that are safe, so can't you aggress against dash block with pokes yourself?
You get a conversion on hit, and on block i can't imagine not being safe.
My favorite neutral skip is NA Xrd IAD YRC into nothing
Most powerful Chipotle employee
Why is there a Guatemalan tech store employee on my screen
My least favorite thing about marvel was incoming mixups so when dbz players eluded the system that avoided those by using snapback I was sad lol
woah
Tenmakujinkyaku
As a yomi hustle player, no other game has a stronger neutral skip. Cowboy teleport is the ultimate neutral skip and every other example is overrated
It's brought up in the video, but didn't have It's own section and it's the current discourse going around FGC Twitter.
Will be DP RC be discussed in a future video?
Interactables sound like stage hazards from Smash Bros.
music too quiet
Commenting for the algo.
The big issu with DR, imo, is that it overcentralizes the game and makes every thing feel way same-y.
The vs game they toned down is mk1, they treated a vs game like a 1v1 game and missed that assists need to be powerful and exciting
Oh no. In my mind, arena interactables are worse than smash items.
Injustice Interactables are more of a Neutral Skip than Drive Rush or 66L will ever be.
I thought LK was younger than me like bro how old is he? He has grey hair like that already? Like i swear when i used to watch him when dbfz dropped he was like 18
I think next video needs to go over Melty Shield, that'd be a wacky discussion.
his beard only connects on his right LOL
Fighterz interactable is the dragonballs 🙂
The neutral skip criticism isnt about wether or not they are overpowered or not it's about what playstyle they incentivise/funnel the game into
Even if I did like playing NRS games, I’d still hate interactables.
Take a shot every time Sajam fixes his hair
death
What do you mean capcom games are about mashing. Only recent ones, but people used to actually block
Bro obviously didn't see the air quotes
Wait I thought this guy lived in a chipotle
Can believe fgc has fallen so much to where chipotle workers are notable guests
Batman trait with otg dumpster is just one of many reasons I'm glad I don't play Injustice
The two most reasonable FGC streamers in the West. Thank you for being an oasis in the desert hellscape that is Twitter
I thought this was a Sajam video and then a black fella popped up
2 hours of sajam going on about fgc shit to sleep 2
I don't know if I'd say it's too powerful, but I really don't like BRC in neutral in Strive. The lamest interaction in that game is when one person BRCs forward and the other BRCs backward in response. And when only one person has the meter to use it, they risk almost nothing and have enough time to do the exactly correct counter to whatever the opponent just did. It makes the game non-committal in a way that I dislike. Still better than Xrd YRC, though.
Is Lord using a beauty filter?
Heyo. While I enjoyed this video because I enjoy hearing the way both you and sajam talk and think, I feel like there was too much agreeing going on, y'know?
It might be better to structure this so one side gets to argue for and the other against, just because hearing somebody trying to defend projectile Yrc sounds hilarious :v
Better dive kick is all Jamie needs
LK looks like a kid impersonating an old man.
FighterZ ruined Arc. It has a fantastic presentation, but I was addicted to the BlazBlue games. Oversimplification ruined Strive (and probably the other Arc fighting games since then... I stopped caring since Strive). Everyone can now mash you to death with a strong hitter and one button, dealing as much damage with each hit as you with a 10 hit combo. FighterZ was basically nothing but watching the opponent do endless combos with barely an option to escape. I miss complex fighting but a simple burst mechanic. Seriously play Guilty Gear XX after Strive, you will have a mental breakdown. The fact alone that your air dashing character doesnt slowly crashland like a loser. Even MK1 has more satisfying arial options.
You can tell LK hasn’t played dragon ball in a minute because current kid buu is like bottom 10 and current Ginyu is one of the most fucked up set play characters in the game