dramatically cutting recovery frames. the fact that they buffed axl 2p to be the most degenerate spamming move in the game. it basically solos entire matchups because it's so easy for axl to react to iads on whiff.
"Increased damage" Usually a warning sign that the character didn't get any help in areas where they were struggling to apply damage in the first place. I'm looking at you, Marisa from SF6.
I hate when the character has everything you can need in a game but it's fine cause he has low damage Like you gotta see yourself slowly mixed up to death by a character that hit you and put you back in the blender each and every time but also out neutrals any character and can also get out or disadvantage for free I don't have exemples of that in the fgc but like melee Peach or Sm4sh sheik were driving me crazy back then
My take has always been that if you give a low health character high damage, that weakness literally doesn't matter, since both characters now effectively have low health.
Thats why i always prefer pixie characters over the rushdown ones. Up to this day rushdown still the arctype that i hate the most alongside zoner. (Also setplay >>> Zoner any day)
It's pretty rare but crippling a character's meter gain is a horrific way to nerf a character. I don't mean nerfing or adjusting it, but halving it a la DBFZ. Just makes the characters feel a lot worse. Also Johnny needs it in AC/+R, he is really not very strong in those games lmao, AC especially
Meter gain has to be among my most beloathed ones for sure, you're essentially just reducing the time a character gets to do what they want to do. Horribly effective but always a net-negative on fun. Really glad they kind of rolled back the meter gain changes on the fusions in DBFZ.
Could've brought up Zappa for the random character bit and shown how fucked up it gets when RNG manipulation becomes part of the characters strategy The ghost he summons is meant to be random and dictate what playstyle he has to adopt for that period but you can just watch the timer and pick the one you want lmao
The timer bit is not consistent, since only the last digits of 0, 1, and 2 actually arent random, every other number gives you a completely random summon, and combos arent nearly long enough to let you stall out for the right number
Yeah, I don't care that playing asuka and HC is hard... "You know what is also hard? Interacting with you BS character while you don't have to interact with mine at all"
@@neklin7150Asuka doesn’t fall into the “it’s hard so it’s fine” camp he’s legit SO hard that it’s just not possible to do it all the time consistently on top of the randomness and resource management and even if he is rolling a lot of neutral skip buttons go clean through cubes bc they have no priority
There is also the inverse to the low health nerf and it is the no damage nerf. I used to play the ninja Galford in Samurai Shodown and he is the epitome of doing no damage at the cost of having insane mobility, oppressive screen control, and good mixup. This trade off is especially prominent in his 5 Special iteration where his command grab does half as much damage as a regular throw. Samsho is notorious for its huge damage but the developers realized they gave Galford too many tools, so they nerfed each one of specials into being low damage or so situational that they rarely see any use.
street fighter has moved in that direction too with almost everyone having the same health. then I discovered Tekken has had identical health since the 90s. health just doesn't seem like the best lever to tweak for balance, it's just the easiest one
@@QGfk1 Sometimes it can be okay. The thing is health tweaks do nothing to change what actually plays out in the match. They're like a direct knob on the character's winrate. More health = more win, less health = less win, but a low-health character is still just as obnoxious even if they die faster.
In almost all KOF games have their characters having the same health pool and stun resistance Only in KOF XI and KOF XIV characters had different health pools and stun resistance
As a +R/Xrd Chipp main, I think he's one of the most well-made low health characters in fighting games. The concept here works really well because the high chance of Chipp succeeding in neutral (getting in on the opponent) is counterbalanced by the heavy cost of failure. Overall, the "expected value" is balanced. I think low health works poorly as a balancing factor when the character either completely dominates neutral through screen control/zoning or when the character has a perfect vortex - two cases where the low health doesn't really factor in that much. The other time I see low health used improperly is on more linear rushdown characters (like Makoto in Super SF4), but in those cases it's just straight up a mistake. I personally don't mind the "difficult to combo" thing, but that's coming from a +R player. I like not having to stop at just learning one universal BnB, and there's always ways to optimize damage. On Johnny, for instance, you can still do 2D Resshou if it's spaced out correctly, which usually means being aware of stuff like dashing momentum and adding more hits before the 2D accordingly. And you're rewarded by Johnny having some very unique (and still damaging) combo routes that don't work on anyone else. Sometimes it feels jank and unintended, but the variety is nice, it feels like it's just part of the usual learning process and it makes each MU feel like its own game.
You also forgot that chipp gameplan besides gamma blade is entirely physical, he HAS to be close, while he has good buttons, the chances of anything going wrong are higher when you need to stay close to be effective (hell, even gamma blade is short ranged) he sure is pretty well designed, i always find people enyojing fighting chipp
I think the "random" characters are fine because both players are reacting to the same thing at the same time and adjusting on the fly. When it comes to character balancing, the low health is probably the worst because it's usually never enough to balance that character. With some of the most extreme examples being Phoenix and Sylvia from Frostfire.
Bears' "I play Chipp and i deserve to get vaporized by Slayer" laugh is one of my favorite moments in FGC history lol. Makes me laugh every time i see it.
I mained Yosuke in P4A, dropped it before Ultimax came out. pretty upsetting to hear I missed the one time in any fighting game when my main was top tier, lol
I HATE pixie characters, specifically ones that have the means to play entirely out of 90% of the casts reasonable radius of interactability, I don't think low hp or low damage really matters when you get hit with unreactable 8 way mix off pretty much every touch. Luckily thats not super common these days but low interactability is still relatively common.
The only thing that comes to mind was the Kokonoe nerfs during BBCF. In particular when they gave her a super that triggered automatically after her freeze attack.
This is gonna sound super obvious, but I like it when they make fighting games where every character has low level combos with not a lot of reward and then gives you more benefits the better you get with that character; A lot of characters get crazy stuff for free and I’m just not a fan of that when it comes to balancing
@Brick_Eater_ you can make basic combos look cool and feel fun. Giving everyone OP specials for no effort is kinda lame. You say "boring", I say skill issue. Get better at the fundamentals and reading your opponents rather than relying on frame data and OP jank.
"A lot of characters get crazy stuff for free" as a strive player, yep, the only characters that DON'T get crazy stuff for free are never used and it's one of the reasons why losing feels so frustrating most of the time. they didn't actually do anything except make you guess wrong, the combos do themselves
I don't like it when characters are balanced by not having access to universal movement options. It's fine if they compensate it with a unique option to them that is flexible and nuanced. But most of the time they either leave them with less options, or the unique ones they have are very linear and force rps scenarioswith few options.
The whole, "We made the character hard to play, on purpose, so we could make them overpowered" is pretty annoying. Like it's not benefitting lower level players especially if they wanted to play the character, nor is it benefitting high level players because they have to deal with a deliberately OP character. The only people it really benefits are the devs, if they specifically say, "oh we want to make this character top tier for lore or favoritism or whatever reason but, like, we have to pretend like we want to balance the roster."
There’s a degree of annoyance at any top tier, that just comes with the nature of seeing the strongest character. However, when they’re EASY strong, easy to execute with braindead options, they will invite the most vitriol imaginable. At least if they’re difficult to pilot, there’s a degree of respect at the skill required to do so.
For real. There is so much I love about Strive. BUT, why is every character a brain dead monkey. And, why are the meta ones nearly completely comprised of the most gorilla like of the hominids?
100% agree, if you deal the most damage AND someone of any skill level could pick the character and get similar to identical results, then you can't blame people for calling them a crutch or a "noob character". But if there's at least some level of execution or setplay necessary to really show why they're top tier, even if you still find them annoying there's at least a sort of begrudging "alright, you earned it I guess..."
Not a recurring character but Avatar belial in granblue is kinda a balancing mess. He can do some insane damage, and good pressure with the tradeoff of having low hp while also spending his health to do his moves and also an invincible command grab super, that's also a hit if it hits from further afar. As a result he either memes you hard with some really long combos, or he spends his health without getting much and then you hit him once and he dies. And when he has 100 meter he can just grab your balls at any time. Makes it often feel like you really get to do anything whether you win or lose when you fight against him. He's not even good but fighting him is just very frustrating.
The stronger or more powerful an option is, the more difficult or risky that option has to be. Low health alone isn't the answer but lack of options can become monotonous and unfun because it becomes linear. There has to be balance between accessibility and expression of skill: enough you can grasp how to play, but not so much that the ability to display individual skill or understanding suffers It is a difficult balancing act to be sure. Anji for example is a very simple character to grasp, almost to the point of linearity. But there is *just* enough nuance in how you use those options for different playstyles to emerge within players of that character. This i feel is the key distinction in good fighting game design. Enough room for decision-making that two people playing the same character at the same skill wont necessarily make the same decisions
13:40 This is exactly the balance decision that makes me dislike Skullgirls. I hate that you have to have a specific combo for each character depending on their weight and size. Oh cool you found a combo that can ToD! Turns out it only ToD's lightweights and will drop on Mid/Heavy characters! :)
I HATE what they did to Zafina in Tekken 8, nerfing all of her actual useful tools into the ground and putting all the emphasis on a small handful of new moves they gave her, to the point her game plan is just spamming those moves because they’re the only relatively good neutral tool she has left. It’s common in a lot of Tekken 8 characters now though - one or two moves are so powerful that there’s no point in using 80% of their kit since those few moves just cover all bases
My least favorite thing is "character is good at something they/their archetype shouldn't be good at". Easiest contemporary example would be Nier from GBVSR, where she's a puppet character (traditionally a difficult, low defense, maybe risky offense, but high pressure and snowbally archetype). She kept the pressure and snowball potential, but she had top-class defense, top-class rushdown, and some of the easiest execution of any puppet character ever. And I hate this because it ends up making the character less fun to people who like the archetype, the exact players who should WANT the character to be strong. I saw traditional puppet players saying they didn't enjoy Nier because she was too free. Nother example, people play grapplers for the high-risk reads; if they made command grabs safe that would make grapplers way better yet very boring. Arguably Strive Slayer's high health fits in here too, gambly character who can afford to make more mistakes than he should. But I ESPECIALLY hate this when it's in a patch intended to buff the character. Because then oftentimes it's permanent. The character needed help; the buffs helped; the only problem is the original character doesn't feel like they exist anymore because their weakness was part of their identity. If it's part of a nerf, that's more likely to get reverted than a buff. It's harder to take away tools than it is to give them, so the devs have to be careful.
Although I wasnt playing the game at the time, KOF XIV added variable health for the first time in the KOF’s history in order to balance the game and it ended up being very unpopular. Since they just gave top tiers lower health while not fixing what made them strong
You've started thinking Shotos are cool because they are. Versatility is dope and having the tools for any situation means you're never totally checkmated. That's awesome. I love knowing that the match is in my hands.
I’m glad someone made that balancing triangle. There are characters with good mobility and damage but have bad mixups and can’t open people up, then there’s characters with good damage and mix but can’t move etc. Then there’s Izanami and Izayoi from Blazblue lol
Kimberly has almost all of those low defense drawbacks No invincible DP, long startup on her level 1 and level 3 (her invincible moves), short range on buttons so you punish whiffs, her two anti airs are easy to counter hit, and on top of that she does lower damage than average damage. So you can't defend very well outside of the universal options. Because of her short range, if you do get a hit in you often won't be able to continue the combo or you'll trade and they do more damage than you.
One i understand but often kills characters is "stance characters can't have too many good tools so all their buttons are trash" Tekken is notorious for characters that have a large amount of stances that end up being trash or mid tier at best because they don't let them have good buttons outside of stances that can also get them killed. Thing is as seen when Yoshi in T8. A good stance character is overwhelming.
Yea I tend to dislike “bad defense” and a similar “just get on them” type of character as it’s usually feels like a chore to do and it’s stressful when you do get on top of them as “if you let them go you are back to the bs”
As a Sol main, I don’t really like where Chipp and Millia are at in Strive. They’re not bad, but there’s a reason they’re hardly seen. Strive is quite different from previous entries, basically being 1 2 touch game. And, well, when you add that to already low health characters, you get glass. I could be fighting a really good Chipp, who I know is better at me in every aspect of the game, but if he makes even one mistake, and I land a good move, he’s gone. Yeah, there speed and mix up is mad annoying, but, when the game is already heavily based on mix ups, it’s not that strong of a reason to play them. Now if their low health was a little bit higher… I’ll probably throw my controller, but at least there would be more diversity I do like how they designed Nago’s glass canon gameplay. He has incredible moves and tools, and high hp. But to use his strong moves and mix ups, means getting closer to becoming a glass. The issue I have with it though currently (once again, as someone who plays against the character), is that there’s little incentive for the player to purposely go blood rage. As mad annoying as it was, back when Hotashi used to blood rage was so sick.
BLOOD RAGE IS A FAIL CONDITION YOU SHOULDNT BE THERE i'm glad they nerfed blood rage health shit was SO stupid when he could tank a combo and blood rage and still be the bulkiest character in the game but now he has another full bar of blood to kill you with
In MVS the playerbase suggesting adding Cooldowns to moves to "balance" them. Cooldowns are a design choice, not a balance choice. Making a character very unfun because you can't do your moves when you need them is not a good balancing strategy.
That OST selection. THATS WHY HE IS THE GOAT I would say the one I REALLY dislike its characters that are "shotos, but better" pretty much Jack of all trades with negligeable downsides compared to the reward they get across the board, without extra resources/gimmicks to make them more complicated (Order Sol, rev2 Raven, etc). Strive Sol, Xrd Elphelt, AC Testament, Strive Leo (Pre DP nerf), Rev1 Raven, Strive Sin, god they are so hateable. Also I HATE Kliff, whatever his archetype is.
The weight thing is more common in 3D fighters. DOA and Virtua Fighter come to mind. Virtua Fighter making me learn a new combo for each weight class was a bit too much for me just starting out.
how would you balance a character in a fighting game that doesn't have combos but their normals all return to neutral? in a game where other characters do combos but the execution barrier is pretty low
The only one I can really think of is the "combos randomly drop" one. I don't hate glass cannon characters, it's just a matter of figuring out what the health is worth. Not saying that's easy to do mind. I think fighting games would be poorer overall if characters like that weren't allowed to exist.
I will add on I hate characters balance around a move that is oppressive if not count but the counter requires a very strong base line to punish (and if you can punish it the character kind of falls apart). My main example is E.Honda old head butt and but slam in sf6. Was/Is E Honda op? No. Is he annoying to face as you need to be ready to perfect parry or dp at a moment notice? Yea. It just makes the character feel very linear at lower levels and makes me sad as higher levels he is just not seen. I do feel capcom is working on this as from what I know, he has been buff but nerf in these two moves.
If anyone is wondering about the music in the video check out Neo geo turf master it has an amazing OST some of SNK's best work great video as usual LK
I've gotten tired of devs intentionally making the big slow grappler archtype weak while giving balanced characters with normal mobility command grabs. If you're going to do that at least give the big guy projectiles a la Tager and Potemkin.
Surprised you didn't mention Smash characters in both the "low life" and "hard to combo" sections, since the major dominating forces for the series were always glass cannons for decades.
I think that a lot of fighting games fall into the trap of balancing the characters for the highest level of gameplay and while that makes the top level more compelling it make every start to learning the game a lot tougher when you have characters that are pub stompers and annoying to fight for new comers.
I actually don't mind the first points. It's only natural to reduce certain parameters of a character if you want them to excel at another. I can get behind the argument for balance of random mechanics though. Not only in fighting games; it's very common for luck-dependant characters to perform around 90% of a regular character in a "bad day", but then they go as high as 150% of value in a "good day".
no, compensatory balance doesn't work because fighting games don't have multitasking. You either defend or attack, not both. Increasing the attack value or decreasing defense value doesn't actually address the problem of the character being either too good at offense or being too bad at defense.
As someone who's trying to learn Strive but wants to really play Asuka, he feels like he's balanced in all the ways mentioned in the video due to mana shield. I get that the character is already good, but to me mana shield just makes him more frustrating to learn without impacting how good he can be.
I really don't like drastic framedata / property changes without visual changes as patches. Making a move from a mid to a low or vice versa without any visual change just pushes FGs as an encyclopedia simulator. Likewise when nothing changes to the visual and moves go from plus to punishable on block or vice versa in a patch. It just makes FGs worse since they're not responsible for providing a coherent visual.
Before I watch and get influenced, my least favorite is when a character has low mobility but high health and high damage off of either side of the 50/50.
Characters being frail with high skill ceiling as balance is the reason why Sniper in TF2 is never going to have an appropriate method to balancing him outside of literally removing him in game or making long range options worthless
Teddie items are in a preset order. When they added the 2nd item order, it feels random for the defender, but the Teddie player always knows what is coming next 🥹
Most characters kinda do. Faust can crawl through most f.S and 5Ks in the game, and the item timing alongside the grab and left/right mixups with certain items can really be annoying. Not only that but faust's j.H and pokes tend to be so big that it's hard to deal with by most characters. So although pot tends to struggle a lot, it's for sure not just pot lol
in regards to the first point: KOFXIV had differing health values patched into the game a little ways into its life (and i think for the first time in series history?) and i don't REALLY know how it panned out for the meta but characters like Mai got their health knocked down to 900 or so and while i totally get it i also kinda don't. idk, a little baffling on SNK's part but hey shatter all expectations
As someone completely ignorant on Tekken I'd be curious how that works. I'm familiar with like, the meme cats in Melty ducking under normal pressure strings by existing but I assume it's a different problem here.
@@arachnofiend2859 Basically, the Bear's hunched over posture means that their push box is ahead of where their legs are, so to hit them with lows you need to be substantially closer than usual, if at all. And forget about using a low that needs a clean hit, like Demoman. Not going to happen.
if all of these balancing tactics for glass canon characters are annoying, then what balancing choices do you think are enjoyable for these types of characters if any?
Another annoying balance factor is high health characters gaining more resources because of their higher health. For characters like Potemkin and Slayer it can be pretty obnoxious since they can build 50 tension since you need a lot of hits compared to them who will kill you in far less.
Random items are such a fine line. I think it's a fun mechanic from a casual perspective, so they certainly have a place in fighting games, but I feel like there's a way to do it right for the competitive side as well. Here's my take on random items: Random items are entirely okay if they are both readable and reactable. Ideally they all have similar-ish effects (all some kind of neutral tool, or they all poke without tons of combo potential, etc). Readable: The different items in a random item move's pool are all distinct enough to be fairly discernable by both you and your opponent. Reactable: Unless specifically set up, the item takes long enough to connect that the opponent has enough time to appropriately defend against it. Different items could require different defense strategies, and the opponent needs a fair amount of time to make that decision.
No -Asuka player daisuke has hit us with the he’s hard so it’s fine two times now,not only that top Asuka players like gobou find him extremely hard and frustrating to play
“hey fighting this character might feel like pulling teeth, but if you touch them they explode into a billion pieces” great now I get to not play the game when I’m losing AND winning Look, I’m a Chipp main in GGST, but I would vastly prefer if they took some of his stronger stuff away and standardized health. I like his speedy play style, but that’s all I really care about. I don’t care much if his power gets reduced.
I feel like it really isn’t hard (read: impossible) to balance fighting game characters. I think a majority of devs are just so disconnected from what people actually have problems with and don’t understand why characters are suffering so they just make bad decisions like “Lots of people say this character is struggling and they don’t make top 8, so let’s juice the fuck out of them without meaningfully changing anyone else.” Even mistakes in balancing are preferable to radio silence for a year or more, but most devs I think genuinely don’t care about or understand the games health in a deeper, “competitive” sense. I think it’d be a mistake to overbalance the game with weekly patches or whatever, but the poor balancing decisions that we see even today are just inexcusable for people whose job it is to develop the game, IMO.
The reason it's more difficult is because your opinion is a lot different from the guy's next to you. So devs often just have to go off somebody's viewpoint. Balancing would be easy if there was just a right answer, but there just isn't a way to make everyone happy all the time.
That does not answer the question I asked WHY r they "bad"? U say because they are "bad"... Elaborate bro this ain't kindergarten. Or r u really just here to troll?
What type of recurring character balance annoys you?
(also pls subscribe🙏🏾)
dramatically cutting recovery frames. the fact that they buffed axl 2p to be the most degenerate spamming move in the game. it basically solos entire matchups because it's so easy for axl to react to iads on whiff.
when they keep making zato the worst character over and over again
"Increased damage"
Usually a warning sign that the character didn't get any help in areas where they were struggling to apply damage in the first place.
I'm looking at you, Marisa from SF6.
I hate when the character has everything you can need in a game but it's fine cause he has low damage
Like you gotta see yourself slowly mixed up to death by a character that hit you and put you back in the blender each and every time but also out neutrals any character and can also get out or disadvantage for free
I don't have exemples of that in the fgc but like melee Peach or Sm4sh sheik were driving me crazy back then
Meter dps, you can't dp too often anyway so it doesn't really make a difference.
Special shoutout to UNIST Vatista who was immune to getting Counter Hit for 8 years.
its the same for her in BBTAG too lol
Thanks to running into Vatista players in BBTag I only learned reg hit routes
RIP BOZO carried asses !
10 years actually lmfao
Bro what 💀
My take has always been that if you give a low health character high damage, that weakness literally doesn't matter, since both characters now effectively have low health.
Thats why i always prefer pixie characters over the rushdown ones. Up to this day rushdown still the arctype that i hate the most alongside zoner. (Also setplay >>> Zoner any day)
exactly! "ok so now we both die in 3 combos instead of 4" all it did was lessen the number of interactions across the board
and usually that character gets a couple more tools than the usual characters
*cough* akuma *cough*
@@MegafanX123I think you just hate playing fighting games my dude
@@mrblooper1994 Sorry, I may sound stupid but I genuinely don't understand what you said
The worst one is the "broken but low hp" I fucking hate that shit
he dies in one hit bro. bro he dies so easy. bro wym they have no hp they can't be broken. bro!!!!
@@coolfish420 Especially annoying when they have a dp or wakeup super that's plus
@@benisign They tend to have a premium mash button too! These characters legit get some of the best defensive tools in the game it's crazy
So, Akuma?
@@thementalorder1233 Akuma isnt the only one like this, but yes shit like akuma
Im surprised you didnt mention the all Time famous "its a hard character so its okay", its not really common nowadays i believed but still
Happy chaos
Tekken 7 had a lot of this.
Yea this one is married to “their thing is tied to a resource so it’s fine” the birth sentence to so much obscenity
I was surprised too i was sure he was gonna talk about it
Izanami...
"the older you get, the cooler ryu become"
Real
It's pretty rare but crippling a character's meter gain is a horrific way to nerf a character. I don't mean nerfing or adjusting it, but halving it a la DBFZ. Just makes the characters feel a lot worse.
Also Johnny needs it in AC/+R, he is really not very strong in those games lmao, AC especially
Meter gain has to be among my most beloathed ones for sure, you're essentially just reducing the time a character gets to do what they want to do.
Horribly effective but always a net-negative on fun.
Really glad they kind of rolled back the meter gain changes on the fusions in DBFZ.
Ram on Xrd...
Shoutout to my boy Jubei who's always in crouching state because he's so short, so he always can get hit with crouching specific combos LOL
Could've brought up Zappa for the random character bit and shown how fucked up it gets when RNG manipulation becomes part of the characters strategy
The ghost he summons is meant to be random and dictate what playstyle he has to adopt for that period but you can just watch the timer and pick the one you want lmao
The timer bit is not consistent, since only the last digits of 0, 1, and 2 actually arent random, every other number gives you a completely random summon, and combos arent nearly long enough to let you stall out for the right number
Doesn't Strive HC also have an RNG mechanic on his gun?
@@user-et3xn2jm1u Technically his aim isn't perfect, but at close range and with the use of curse the rng should be negligible.
"It's hard to do, therefore it's fine". No, you're not allowed to have the best tools/damage in the game just because of execution.
"it's hard but it's fine" is a vid longer than a Lord of the rings film 💀💀💀💀💀💀
Yeah, I don't care that playing asuka and HC is hard... "You know what is also hard? Interacting with you BS character while you don't have to interact with mine at all"
@@neklin7150Asuka doesn’t fall into the “it’s hard so it’s fine” camp he’s legit SO hard that it’s just not possible to do it all the time consistently on top of the randomness and resource management and even if he is rolling a lot of neutral skip buttons go clean through cubes bc they have no priority
Izanami gaming
@@BudewFan_ and other jokes you can tell yourself
There is also the inverse to the low health nerf and it is the no damage nerf. I used to play the ninja Galford in Samurai Shodown and he is the epitome of doing no damage at the cost of having insane mobility, oppressive screen control, and good mixup. This trade off is especially prominent in his 5 Special iteration where his command grab does half as much damage as a regular throw. Samsho is notorious for its huge damage but the developers realized they gave Galford too many tools, so they nerfed each one of specials into being low damage or so situational that they rarely see any use.
I can appreciate Skullgirls and KoF13 giving all characters universal health.
street fighter has moved in that direction too with almost everyone having the same health. then I discovered Tekken has had identical health since the 90s. health just doesn't seem like the best lever to tweak for balance, it's just the easiest one
@QGfk1 Um acktually, SF3 and Guilty gear always had characters have the same Health. It was Defense that was changing 🤓
@@QGfk1 Sometimes it can be okay. The thing is health tweaks do nothing to change what actually plays out in the match. They're like a direct knob on the character's winrate. More health = more win, less health = less win, but a low-health character is still just as obnoxious even if they die faster.
Thing is skullgirls has horrible balance lol
In almost all KOF games have their characters having the same health pool and stun resistance
Only in KOF XI and KOF XIV characters had different health pools and stun resistance
As a +R/Xrd Chipp main, I think he's one of the most well-made low health characters in fighting games. The concept here works really well because the high chance of Chipp succeeding in neutral (getting in on the opponent) is counterbalanced by the heavy cost of failure. Overall, the "expected value" is balanced.
I think low health works poorly as a balancing factor when the character either completely dominates neutral through screen control/zoning or when the character has a perfect vortex - two cases where the low health doesn't really factor in that much. The other time I see low health used improperly is on more linear rushdown characters (like Makoto in Super SF4), but in those cases it's just straight up a mistake.
I personally don't mind the "difficult to combo" thing, but that's coming from a +R player. I like not having to stop at just learning one universal BnB, and there's always ways to optimize damage. On Johnny, for instance, you can still do 2D Resshou if it's spaced out correctly, which usually means being aware of stuff like dashing momentum and adding more hits before the 2D accordingly. And you're rewarded by Johnny having some very unique (and still damaging) combo routes that don't work on anyone else. Sometimes it feels jank and unintended, but the variety is nice, it feels like it's just part of the usual learning process and it makes each MU feel like its own game.
You also forgot that chipp gameplan besides gamma blade is entirely physical, he HAS to be close, while he has good buttons, the chances of anything going wrong are higher when you need to stay close to be effective (hell, even gamma blade is short ranged) he sure is pretty well designed, i always find people enyojing fighting chipp
I think the "random" characters are fine because both players are reacting to the same thing at the same time and adjusting on the fly.
When it comes to character balancing, the low health is probably the worst because it's usually never enough to balance that character. With some of the most extreme examples being Phoenix and Sylvia from Frostfire.
Bears' "I play Chipp and i deserve to get vaporized by Slayer" laugh is one of my favorite moments in FGC history lol. Makes me laugh every time i see it.
I mained Yosuke in P4A, dropped it before Ultimax came out. pretty upsetting to hear I missed the one time in any fighting game when my main was top tier, lol
Yosuke and Yu were my 2 favourites to play in ultimax
Shoutout to ultimate fox for being very light and getting combo'd for being a fast-faller AND being top tier his whole life!
I HATE pixie characters, specifically ones that have the means to play entirely out of 90% of the casts reasonable radius of interactability, I don't think low hp or low damage really matters when you get hit with unreactable 8 way mix off pretty much every touch. Luckily thats not super common these days but low interactability is still relatively common.
Chipp zanuff my behated
Low damage basically means nothing when it’s impossible to block them. Valkanhayn in Blazblue lol
I hate Millia Rage with all my soul
The only thing that comes to mind was the Kokonoe nerfs during BBCF. In particular when they gave her a super that triggered automatically after her freeze attack.
This is gonna sound super obvious, but I like it when they make fighting games where every character has low level combos with not a lot of reward and then gives you more benefits the better you get with that character; A lot of characters get crazy stuff for free and I’m just not a fan of that when it comes to balancing
BOOOOOORIIIING
@@Brick_Eater_ Oh hey there, Ben; How's the water?
@Brick_Eater_ you can make basic combos look cool and feel fun. Giving everyone OP specials for no effort is kinda lame. You say "boring", I say skill issue. Get better at the fundamentals and reading your opponents rather than relying on frame data and OP jank.
@@jramirez4310 Isn't frame data apart of fundamentals?
"A lot of characters get crazy stuff for free" as a strive player, yep, the only characters that DON'T get crazy stuff for free are never used and it's one of the reasons why losing feels so frustrating most of the time. they didn't actually do anything except make you guess wrong, the combos do themselves
I don't like it when characters are balanced by not having access to universal movement options. It's fine if they compensate it with a unique option to them that is flexible and nuanced. But most of the time they either leave them with less options, or the unique ones they have are very linear and force rps scenarioswith few options.
Akuma from HD Remix was the epitome of a "glass cannon".
The whole, "We made the character hard to play, on purpose, so we could make them overpowered" is pretty annoying.
Like it's not benefitting lower level players especially if they wanted to play the character, nor is it benefitting high level players because they have to deal with a deliberately OP character.
The only people it really benefits are the devs, if they specifically say, "oh we want to make this character top tier for lore or favoritism or whatever reason but, like, we have to pretend like we want to balance the roster."
There’s a degree of annoyance at any top tier, that just comes with the nature of seeing the strongest character.
However, when they’re EASY strong, easy to execute with braindead options, they will invite the most vitriol imaginable.
At least if they’re difficult to pilot, there’s a degree of respect at the skill required to do so.
For real. There is so much I love about Strive. BUT, why is every character a brain dead monkey. And, why are the meta ones nearly completely comprised of the most gorilla like of the hominids?
100% agree, if you deal the most damage AND someone of any skill level could pick the character and get similar to identical results, then you can't blame people for calling them a crutch or a "noob character". But if there's at least some level of execution or setplay necessary to really show why they're top tier, even if you still find them annoying there's at least a sort of begrudging "alright, you earned it I guess..."
Not a recurring character but Avatar belial in granblue is kinda a balancing mess. He can do some insane damage, and good pressure with the tradeoff of having low hp while also spending his health to do his moves and also an invincible command grab super, that's also a hit if it hits from further afar. As a result he either memes you hard with some really long combos, or he spends his health without getting much and then you hit him once and he dies. And when he has 100 meter he can just grab your balls at any time. Makes it often feel like you really get to do anything whether you win or lose when you fight against him.
He's not even good but fighting him is just very frustrating.
The stronger or more powerful an option is, the more difficult or risky that option has to be.
Low health alone isn't the answer but lack of options can become monotonous and unfun because it becomes linear.
There has to be balance between accessibility and expression of skill: enough you can grasp how to play, but not so much that the ability to display individual skill or understanding suffers
It is a difficult balancing act to be sure.
Anji for example is a very simple character to grasp, almost to the point of linearity. But there is *just* enough nuance in how you use those options for different playstyles to emerge within players of that character.
This i feel is the key distinction in good fighting game design. Enough room for decision-making that two people playing the same character at the same skill wont necessarily make the same decisions
13:40 This is exactly the balance decision that makes me dislike Skullgirls. I hate that you have to have a specific combo for each character depending on their weight and size. Oh cool you found a combo that can ToD! Turns out it only ToD's lightweights and will drop on Mid/Heavy characters! :)
I HATE what they did to Zafina in Tekken 8, nerfing all of her actual useful tools into the ground and putting all the emphasis on a small handful of new moves they gave her, to the point her game plan is just spamming those moves because they’re the only relatively good neutral tool she has left.
It’s common in a lot of Tekken 8 characters now though - one or two moves are so powerful that there’s no point in using 80% of their kit since those few moves just cover all bases
My least favorite thing is "character is good at something they/their archetype shouldn't be good at". Easiest contemporary example would be Nier from GBVSR, where she's a puppet character (traditionally a difficult, low defense, maybe risky offense, but high pressure and snowbally archetype). She kept the pressure and snowball potential, but she had top-class defense, top-class rushdown, and some of the easiest execution of any puppet character ever. And I hate this because it ends up making the character less fun to people who like the archetype, the exact players who should WANT the character to be strong. I saw traditional puppet players saying they didn't enjoy Nier because she was too free. Nother example, people play grapplers for the high-risk reads; if they made command grabs safe that would make grapplers way better yet very boring. Arguably Strive Slayer's high health fits in here too, gambly character who can afford to make more mistakes than he should.
But I ESPECIALLY hate this when it's in a patch intended to buff the character. Because then oftentimes it's permanent. The character needed help; the buffs helped; the only problem is the original character doesn't feel like they exist anymore because their weakness was part of their identity. If it's part of a nerf, that's more likely to get reverted than a buff. It's harder to take away tools than it is to give them, so the devs have to be careful.
Although I wasnt playing the game at the time, KOF XIV added variable health for the first time in the KOF’s history in order to balance the game and it ended up being very unpopular. Since they just gave top tiers lower health while not fixing what made them strong
Nintendo 3DS Internet Settings menu music????
GOATED
You've started thinking Shotos are cool because they are. Versatility is dope and having the tools for any situation means you're never totally checkmated. That's awesome. I love knowing that the match is in my hands.
I’m glad someone made that balancing triangle. There are characters with good mobility and damage but have bad mixups and can’t open people up, then there’s characters with good damage and mix but can’t move etc. Then there’s Izanami and Izayoi from Blazblue lol
Kimberly has almost all of those low defense drawbacks
No invincible DP, long startup on her level 1 and level 3 (her invincible moves), short range on buttons so you punish whiffs, her two anti airs are easy to counter hit, and on top of that she does lower damage than average damage.
So you can't defend very well outside of the universal options. Because of her short range, if you do get a hit in you often won't be able to continue the combo or you'll trade and they do more damage than you.
One i understand but often kills characters is "stance characters can't have too many good tools so all their buttons are trash"
Tekken is notorious for characters that have a large amount of stances that end up being trash or mid tier at best because they don't let them have good buttons outside of stances that can also get them killed.
Thing is as seen when Yoshi in T8. A good stance character is overwhelming.
Yea I tend to dislike “bad defense” and a similar “just get on them” type of character as it’s usually feels like a chore to do and it’s stressful when you do get on top of them as “if you let them go you are back to the bs”
As a Sol main, I don’t really like where Chipp and Millia are at in Strive. They’re not bad, but there’s a reason they’re hardly seen.
Strive is quite different from previous entries, basically being 1 2 touch game. And, well, when you add that to already low health characters, you get glass. I could be fighting a really good Chipp, who I know is better at me in every aspect of the game, but if he makes even one mistake, and I land a good move, he’s gone. Yeah, there speed and mix up is mad annoying, but, when the game is already heavily based on mix ups, it’s not that strong of a reason to play them. Now if their low health was a little bit higher… I’ll probably throw my controller, but at least there would be more diversity
I do like how they designed Nago’s glass canon gameplay. He has incredible moves and tools, and high hp. But to use his strong moves and mix ups, means getting closer to becoming a glass. The issue I have with it though currently (once again, as someone who plays against the character), is that there’s little incentive for the player to purposely go blood rage. As mad annoying as it was, back when Hotashi used to blood rage was so sick.
BLOOD RAGE IS A FAIL CONDITION YOU SHOULDNT BE THERE
i'm glad they nerfed blood rage health shit was SO stupid when he could tank a combo and blood rage and still be the bulkiest character in the game but now he has another full bar of blood to kill you with
In MVS the playerbase suggesting adding Cooldowns to moves to "balance" them. Cooldowns are a design choice, not a balance choice. Making a character very unfun because you can't do your moves when you need them is not a good balancing strategy.
That OST selection.
THATS WHY HE IS THE GOAT
I would say the one I REALLY dislike its characters that are "shotos, but better" pretty much Jack of all trades with negligeable downsides compared to the reward they get across the board, without extra resources/gimmicks to make them more complicated (Order Sol, rev2 Raven, etc).
Strive Sol, Xrd Elphelt, AC Testament, Strive Leo (Pre DP nerf), Rev1 Raven, Strive Sin, god they are so hateable.
Also I HATE Kliff, whatever his archetype is.
I'm surprised you didn't mention Belial for "shoto but better"
@@drewsbiggestfan689 I deadass forgot.
I wouldnt call AC testament a shoto
The weight thing is more common in 3D fighters. DOA and Virtua Fighter come to mind. Virtua Fighter making me learn a new combo for each weight class was a bit too much for me just starting out.
how would you balance a character in a fighting game that doesn't have combos but their normals all return to neutral? in a game where other characters do combos but the execution barrier is pretty low
Bro just forgot Teddie this shit is crazy
Wait I forgot it's preset in the two lists nvm
Yes the thing that makes him broken is it's not random 💀
#teddiegyat
@@lordknightfgc ok but even if it was random wouldn’t shit like 1.0 keys still make him broken af
I hate "jack of all trades master of none" characters that are actually master of all trades AND simple to play
"Random early game, not so much mid and late game." The average round is 20 seconds
The only one I can really think of is the "combos randomly drop" one. I don't hate glass cannon characters, it's just a matter of figuring out what the health is worth. Not saying that's easy to do mind. I think fighting games would be poorer overall if characters like that weren't allowed to exist.
I will add on I hate characters balance around a move that is oppressive if not count but the counter requires a very strong base line to punish (and if you can punish it the character kind of falls apart). My main example is E.Honda old head butt and but slam in sf6. Was/Is E Honda op? No. Is he annoying to face as you need to be ready to perfect parry or dp at a moment notice? Yea.
It just makes the character feel very linear at lower levels and makes me sad as higher levels he is just not seen. I do feel capcom is working on this as from what I know, he has been buff but nerf in these two moves.
If anyone is wondering about the music in the video check out Neo geo turf master it has an amazing OST some of SNK's best work great video as usual LK
you can start by not making impossible to balance gimmicks
I've gotten tired of devs intentionally making the big slow grappler archtype weak while giving balanced characters with normal mobility command grabs.
If you're going to do that at least give the big guy projectiles a la Tager and Potemkin.
*character has the most broken attack ever*
“but it’s hard though”
Jojos HFTF is the core example of no characters being annoying because each one is an unbalanced mess
Low health and random were the two I expected, very solid vid
Teddie somehow not catching a stray is shocking, biggest offender in my eyes.
Surprised you didn't mention Smash characters in both the "low life" and "hard to combo" sections, since the major dominating forces for the series were always glass cannons for decades.
I think that a lot of fighting games fall into the trap of balancing the characters for the highest level of gameplay and while that makes the top level more compelling it make every start to learning the game a lot tougher when you have characters that are pub stompers and annoying to fight for new comers.
I expected to see "bad defense" slayer here
I actually don't mind the first points. It's only natural to reduce certain parameters of a character if you want them to excel at another. I can get behind the argument for balance of random mechanics though. Not only in fighting games; it's very common for luck-dependant characters to perform around 90% of a regular character in a "bad day", but then they go as high as 150% of value in a "good day".
no, compensatory balance doesn't work because fighting games don't have multitasking. You either defend or attack, not both. Increasing the attack value or decreasing defense value doesn't actually address the problem of the character being either too good at offense or being too bad at defense.
As someone who's trying to learn Strive but wants to really play Asuka, he feels like he's balanced in all the ways mentioned in the video due to mana shield. I get that the character is already good, but to me mana shield just makes him more frustrating to learn without impacting how good he can be.
I really don't like drastic framedata / property changes without visual changes as patches. Making a move from a mid to a low or vice versa without any visual change just pushes FGs as an encyclopedia simulator.
Likewise when nothing changes to the visual and moves go from plus to punishable on block or vice versa in a patch. It just makes FGs worse since they're not responsible for providing a coherent visual.
6:33 As a Suisei/Anji player... yeah. This sucks.
my wish has been answered ( no stick sound ) thanks for the goat video
Before I watch and get influenced, my least favorite is when a character has low mobility but high health and high damage off of either side of the 50/50.
If we go any more low key we'll be at the opera.
Characters being frail with high skill ceiling as balance is the reason why Sniper in TF2 is never going to have an appropriate method to balancing him outside of literally removing him in game or making long range options worthless
This is more of a 3d fighting game thing but I hate characters with no mix who then get to counterhit you for breathing
"low health" ussualy don't balance it enough, Zero from UMCV3
I've always thought.... Low Life is the MOST MEDIOCRE WAY to "balance" what is intended to be a Top tier character
chipp works well because he's kinda of low damage as well. at least low damage per hit
Not including Teddy in "randomness for balance" is criminal. That bear is Even More reliant on items than Faust is.
Teddie is not random though.
Teddie items are in a preset order.
When they added the 2nd item order, it feels random for the defender, but the Teddie player always knows what is coming next 🥹
Your eyes look bloodshot, make sure you're getting your rest!
Great video Lord "Lord Knight "Arcsys Fighting Game Legend "Lord Knight" " Knight. I too hate Faust.
I also like just playing shotos. I just want to know that I'm good at the game, not good at a gimmick.
Can we get a video about the opposite, talking about the "best" ways to balance a character?
The timing for comboing faust really fks me up, I play Potemkin, does any other character have problmes with that faust hurtbox?/timing
Most characters kinda do. Faust can crawl through most f.S and 5Ks in the game, and the item timing alongside the grab and left/right mixups with certain items can really be annoying. Not only that but faust's j.H and pokes tend to be so big that it's hard to deal with by most characters. So although pot tends to struggle a lot, it's for sure not just pot lol
...Is that fucking THPS 2 music?
Metal slug ost?
in regards to the first point: KOFXIV had differing health values patched into the game a little ways into its life (and i think for the first time in series history?) and i don't REALLY know how it panned out for the meta but characters like Mai got their health knocked down to 900 or so and while i totally get it i also kinda don't. idk, a little baffling on SNK's part but hey shatter all expectations
No one can convince me chipp in plus r has low damage
Absolute the worst has to be a character just being substantially less vulnerable to a standard way of opening someone up.
Looking at you, Bears.
As someone completely ignorant on Tekken I'd be curious how that works. I'm familiar with like, the meme cats in Melty ducking under normal pressure strings by existing but I assume it's a different problem here.
@@arachnofiend2859 Basically, the Bear's hunched over posture means that their push box is ahead of where their legs are, so to hit them with lows you need to be substantially closer than usual, if at all.
And forget about using a low that needs a clean hit, like Demoman. Not going to happen.
if all of these balancing tactics for glass canon characters are annoying, then what balancing choices do you think are enjoyable for these types of characters if any?
I think the most annoying thing is when the top tiers never change And when they keep making Szato awful
you have to be sick in the head to not love toa's taunt combo
Another annoying balance factor is high health characters gaining more resources because of their higher health. For characters like Potemkin and Slayer it can be pretty obnoxious since they can build 50 tension since you need a lot of hits compared to them who will kill you in far less.
angry fgc uncle :3
Top 8 King!
Random items are such a fine line. I think it's a fun mechanic from a casual perspective, so they certainly have a place in fighting games, but I feel like there's a way to do it right for the competitive side as well. Here's my take on random items:
Random items are entirely okay if they are both readable and reactable. Ideally they all have similar-ish effects (all some kind of neutral tool, or they all poke without tons of combo potential, etc).
Readable: The different items in a random item move's pool are all distinct enough to be fairly discernable by both you and your opponent.
Reactable: Unless specifically set up, the item takes long enough to connect that the opponent has enough time to appropriately defend against it. Different items could require different defense strategies, and the opponent needs a fair amount of time to make that decision.
whatever archetype HC and asuka are
masturbators since the are playing, with themselves
Zoner?
@@benisign zoner
glass cannon (asuka) types also rng spliced in
Sorry but the Asuka hate came over me. Is there anyone who genuinely believes Asuka is a well designed fighting game character?
No but he is a cool one
No -Asuka player daisuke has hit us with the he’s hard so it’s fine two times now,not only that top Asuka players like gobou find him extremely hard and frustrating to play
True!!!
Day 15835 of asking for a marg video
“hey fighting this character might feel like pulling teeth, but if you touch them they explode into a billion pieces”
great now I get to not play the game when I’m losing AND winning
Look, I’m a Chipp main in GGST, but I would vastly prefer if they took some of his stronger stuff away and standardized health. I like his speedy play style, but that’s all I really care about. I don’t care much if his power gets reduced.
I feel like it really isn’t hard (read: impossible) to balance fighting game characters. I think a majority of devs are just so disconnected from what people actually have problems with and don’t understand why characters are suffering so they just make bad decisions like “Lots of people say this character is struggling and they don’t make top 8, so let’s juice the fuck out of them without meaningfully changing anyone else.” Even mistakes in balancing are preferable to radio silence for a year or more, but most devs I think genuinely don’t care about or understand the games health in a deeper, “competitive” sense.
I think it’d be a mistake to overbalance the game with weekly patches or whatever, but the poor balancing decisions that we see even today are just inexcusable for people whose job it is to develop the game, IMO.
The reason it's more difficult is because your opinion is a lot different from the guy's next to you. So devs often just have to go off somebody's viewpoint. Balancing would be easy if there was just a right answer, but there just isn't a way to make everyone happy all the time.
I don't think you understand how mathematically complex fighting games are.
No Milia mentioned in glass cannon. L video
To be a cannon you have to do good damage dummy, and her mobility/offense is worse than Chipp
it is NOT hard to balance a fighting game character
Then y aren't all fighting games(made by experienced devs) old or new balanced?
@@neon-lake because the devs are BAD at balancing them
That does not answer the question
I asked WHY r they "bad"? U say because they are "bad"... Elaborate bro this ain't kindergarten.
Or r u really just here to troll?
just here to troll tbh
How many FGs have you made?