This is hilarious. Good for Trueman. He sits there at a table, surrounded by celebrity pastors, telling them why their way of ministry is a bad idea. Perfect.
What do you mean by,"courageous"? And why would it matter who is surrounding him? I understand this may come off as snarky using these words when you cannot see my face but I ask in all humility. God Bless In Christ, Billy
@@williamclarke2020 Sure, I just mean that it is uncommon to hear someone say things that could step on the toes of those sitting next to him. Those were all “celebrity pastors” to some degree and his words had a good measure of warning to them. It should not be uncommon, but it is. More truth than carefully, crafted caveats and qualifications.
@@Celticbavarian That is clear! Much thanks in Christ for the response. I'm from Cape Breton Island, Nova Scotia where many still hold to the Celtic Scots Gaelic. I only say that because of your username. Ciad Mile Failte!! In Christ, Brother William 1Tim 4:16
A good antidote or at least a step in the right direction is the little book Memoirs of an Ordinary Pastor by Don Carson about Carson's father. Highly recommend reading it. Especially for those considering the pastorate. It's a short edifying book about an ordinary pastor and in a sense a missionary too since he pastored in French Canada.
Wow, this is serious and profound advice. I respect pastors like John Macarthur, John Piper, R.C Sproul... but what he's saying is true. We tend to worship people just because they are popular but we don't even know how they really are in their private life. We even discard pastors just because they are not popular. That's a really bad mistake.
My wife and I were members of a church which had a main preaching elder/pastor, supported by two other elders in various areas of ministry. In the beginning, that elder led a small home group, preached every Sunday, and made himself available outside of church. A few years later, he had grown so popular that he was always traveling and taking on more and more responsibilities within the SBC. It became very difficult to get more than a quick hello after service. I don't know if he was striving for that type of 'success', but we ended up leaving for a smaller church with a Pastor fully devoted to his congregation. I'm guilty of following some of the men on this panel and others not present too closely. It's human nature.
@@Scaperoot79 thank you for sharing your personal story. Some men want to focus on the breadth of their ministry instead of the depth. MacArthur wisely said years ago to focus on the depth of your ministry and God will take care of the breadth of your ministry.
Wow - that was solid! I am the teaching pastor (not senior pastor) at a "mega-church" but I love our model because we have a rotating teaching team. It isn't built around one person; a team of pastors teaches regularly, and it works very well. I think more churches would do this, but senior pastors are often too afraid to let others stand in their pulpit. There is a lot of pride in being "the guy", but the church doesn't belong to the senior pastor. It is God's church, and we owe it to the next generation to never stop raising up new leaders.
The human heart, even the regenerated heart of Christian pastors, have remnant sin so that pride and vain-glory creeps in. Having a plurality of elders and strong accountability with each other helps but is no guarantee of failure. Thank you for visiting.
Like all these guys on this platform. I'll never go to another conference again and I'll recommend that our elders do the same. It's an unhealthy culture.
Likewise. I'm pretty much all conferenced out, aside from small, local ones with small church, local pastors as the speakers. I'm tired of pastors of multi thousand member churches telling me how to do ministry in ways that are impossible for my church of 80.
Yet the biggest problem with Celebrity Pastor culture is that the local pastor is often compared to the Celebrity Pastor. It is not that the local pastor 'falls' ... but that the local pastor does not measure up to the polished production of a Celebrity Pastor Ministry. RUclips can be a misperception for the immature Christian in the pews. The Celebrity Pastor culture has shifted the perception of reality. The local pastor may not be as polished as the Celebrity Pastor but the Celebrity Pastor also often has a production team to polish an otherwise normal man.
Just to add on (I agree with everything you said), the online celebrity pastor can’t love your congregation. Your local pastor, even if he’s not as gifted of a scholar of speaker, can actually love you and your family because he’s actually there. That’s so much more important
Interesting conversation. A bigger question is who is a pastor. Actually ALL elders are to be shepherds (pastors) according to Acts 20 and 1 Peter 5. These passages can only mean a plurality of leaders. We keep hearing about "the ministry". In reality, the ministry is the obligation of EVERY Christian. (Eph. 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:) Furthermore, there is no New Testament example of a church with a single leader disguised as a senior pastor or a teaching elder. All elderS are required to teach. Wake up church and stop putting your eggs in one basket. It hasn't worked very well.
I don’t think Kenneth Copeland, Joel Osteen, Steven Furdick or the other thousands of celebrity pastors adhere to the Doctrines of Grace! The issue is the human condition and its propensity to sin!
@@Chappy1965 agree. Issue is not theology, while that is vitally important. But the human heart and its desire for great influence. Thank you for visiting.
You think a man can't be a celebrity or a betrayer if he parrots Calvinism? He surely can. Watch out, not just for the wolves you mention, but for the wolves you're currently feeding.
@@patricklacson Does it apply to celebrity pastors like MacArthur and Piper, or are they infallible and pure of heart? Because those guys most certainly are celebrities of the Calvinist set.
I would argue a lot of people did listen to him. There has been a massive decline in the popularity of mega ministries in the past few years like The Gospel Coalition, big conferences etc.
Maybe. Certainly even in the Apostle Paul's day he had to warn the church about "super apostles." In my own Western culture (Australia), we tend to have a mixture - Anglo's like myself can tend to be overly skeptical of authority, there is a big egalitarian bent in the culture (not just the theology of men/women sameness, but everyone sameness) with the desire in this culture to cut down the tall poppy who is too far above everyone else. There can be a healthy side of this (not taking ourselves too seriously), as well as an unhealthy side where we don't easily submit to right, righteous and godly authority (which we are biblically called to do!). However Anglos can still elevate leaders (such as the Hillsong bloke or indeed even theologically sound leaders). Asian cultures in the main cities in Australia tend* to be much, much more readily receptive of authority, and see that if someone is in authority/high up, that they must be elevated for a reason (often so!). Sometimes this means however that a Pastor can get away with much too much with little questioning, even with sin, with much too little accountability and no plurality of Elders to ensure faithfulness. In Asian Christian cultures there can also often be an overemphasis on academic success and titles (eg. must have done a Masters or Doctorate to be a Pastor), and little emphasis on the full "three C's" of godly elders/leaders (Character, Conviction and Competency). So maybe there is a tendency in most cultures to elevate Christian leaders, even if we don't call it "celebrity."
He's only stating the obvious. Celebrity pastorhood (or maybe pastoralised celebrity is a better description) is as inimical to what Jesus is about as for example the gaudy iconography which greets you in many catholic places of worship. The Bible says it better than Trueman and it always has.
I was surprised to see Carl Truman sitting with those "woke" preachers, some of whom are involved in different kinds of scandals than of a sexual nature.
Don't be surprised. Carl Truman has protected Grove City against just criticism of its descent into wokeness, and he inflicted Aimee Byrd on the church. He is also a buddy with Matthew Barrett of Midwest Theological Seminary, a guy who attacks "biblicism" as a trojan horse for neo-Catholicism.
The Calvin culture raises up, exalts, emphasizes these ‘high powered’ preachers/pastors (past and present) and tells us non-conformists who don’t buy the reformed heresy, “ see, all great scholars are Calvinists” and “ you’re a nobody” “you’re alone” … then we see that these great ones are farses and fakes …
@grannyblinda Grace and peace if you are my brother/sister in our LORD Jesus Christ! :) Yes every man can fall. Yes there are some self-proclaimed Calvanists who are all about themselves. I was one of them, and pray I fight against making it about me everyday. But what about faithful calvanistic Pastors like mine in New Zealand at my local church in Wellington? My local church in Christchurch? And what about faithful calvanistic Pastors like Dr. John MacArthur? Are these people farses and fakes? Prayers to you and your family! ben
I’m sorry that you’ve experienced Calvinists causing you to feel lesser than. In my opinion, the reason we should give for believing in Calvinism isn’t because “all of the scholars do,” but rather because we believe that it is the system of soteriology that we see set forth in the Scriptures.
I do not recognise any oteh the celebrity pastors present, but will emphatically say - God bless this man 🙏✝
Excellent perspective.
Very timely in lieu of all the pastors who fell in north Texas area lately.
Thanks for visiting. Bigger isn't always better.
This is hilarious. Good for Trueman. He sits there at a table, surrounded by celebrity pastors, telling them why their way of ministry is a bad idea. Perfect.
It was a very wise and helpful assessment of Trueman 12 years ago. Thank you for visiting.
so needed in our celebrity enamored Christendom
Such a courageous response considering who he was surrounded by. Impressive.
Yes. God is pleased to use ordinary men to proclaim His glorious gospel..
What do you mean by,"courageous"? And why would it matter who is surrounding him? I understand this may come off as snarky using these words when you cannot see my face but I ask in all humility.
God Bless
In Christ,
Billy
@@williamclarke2020 Sure, I just mean that it is uncommon to hear someone say things that could step on the toes of those sitting next to him. Those were all “celebrity pastors” to some degree and his words had a good measure of warning to them. It should not be uncommon, but it is. More truth than carefully, crafted caveats and qualifications.
@@Celticbavarian That is clear! Much thanks in Christ for the response. I'm from Cape Breton Island, Nova Scotia where many still hold to the Celtic Scots Gaelic. I only say that because of your username.
Ciad Mile Failte!!
In Christ,
Brother William
1Tim 4:16
A good antidote or at least a step in the right direction is the little book Memoirs of an Ordinary Pastor by Don Carson about Carson's father. Highly recommend reading it. Especially for those considering the pastorate. It's a short edifying book about an ordinary pastor and in a sense a missionary too since he pastored in French Canada.
In Christ alone 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
Much truth here.
True words!
Wow, this is serious and profound advice. I respect pastors like John Macarthur, John Piper, R.C Sproul... but what he's saying is true. We tend to worship people just because they are popular but we don't even know how they really are in their private life. We even discard pastors just because they are not popular. That's a really bad mistake.
Thank you for visiting and Trueman speaks with clarity and precision on our American celebrity focus.
Wisdom!!!
not the people who are sitting around him...
My wife and I were members of a church which had a main preaching elder/pastor, supported by two other elders in various areas of ministry. In the beginning, that elder led a small home group, preached every Sunday, and made himself available outside of church. A few years later, he had grown so popular that he was always traveling and taking on more and more responsibilities within the SBC. It became very difficult to get more than a quick hello after service. I don't know if he was striving for that type of 'success', but we ended up leaving for a smaller church with a Pastor fully devoted to his congregation. I'm guilty of following some of the men on this panel and others not present too closely. It's human nature.
@@Scaperoot79 thank you for sharing your personal story. Some men want to focus on the breadth of their ministry instead of the depth. MacArthur wisely said years ago to focus on the depth of your ministry and God will take care of the breadth of your ministry.
Haunting. Did we pay attention?
Is this for real? Look at the men sitting next to him. All elevated as voices to be heard and followed regarding social gospel and all things CRT
Yes, Trueman offering a friendly rebuke 8 years ago.
Very interesting!
Wow - that was solid! I am the teaching pastor (not senior pastor) at a "mega-church" but I love our model because we have a rotating teaching team. It isn't built around one person; a team of pastors teaches regularly, and it works very well. I think more churches would do this, but senior pastors are often too afraid to let others stand in their pulpit. There is a lot of pride in being "the guy", but the church doesn't belong to the senior pastor. It is God's church, and we owe it to the next generation to never stop raising up new leaders.
The human heart, even the regenerated heart of Christian pastors, have remnant sin so that pride and vain-glory creeps in. Having a plurality of elders and strong accountability with each other helps but is no guarantee of failure. Thank you for visiting.
Like all these guys on this platform. I'll never go to another conference again and I'll recommend that our elders do the same. It's an unhealthy culture.
Likewise. I'm pretty much all conferenced out, aside from small, local ones with small church, local pastors as the speakers. I'm tired of pastors of multi thousand member churches telling me how to do ministry in ways that are impossible for my church of 80.
Great wisdom. Would love to hear more on this panel. What conference was this?
Together For The Gospel. I think i have a link in description
Good 👍
We don't do any of this. They do.
Yet the biggest problem with Celebrity Pastor culture is that the local pastor is often compared to the Celebrity Pastor. It is not that the local pastor 'falls' ... but that the local pastor does not measure up to the polished production of a Celebrity Pastor Ministry. RUclips can be a misperception for the immature Christian in the pews. The Celebrity Pastor culture has shifted the perception of reality. The local pastor may not be as polished as the Celebrity Pastor but the Celebrity Pastor also often has a production team to polish an otherwise normal man.
Just to add on (I agree with everything you said), the online celebrity pastor can’t love your congregation. Your local pastor, even if he’s not as gifted of a scholar of speaker, can actually love you and your family because he’s actually there. That’s so much more important
Amen
Great
Interesting conversation. A bigger question is who is a pastor. Actually ALL elders are to be shepherds (pastors) according to Acts 20 and 1 Peter 5. These passages can only mean a plurality of leaders.
We keep hearing about "the ministry". In reality, the ministry is the obligation of EVERY Christian. (Eph. 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:) Furthermore, there is no New Testament example of a church with a single leader disguised as a senior pastor or a teaching elder. All elderS are required to teach.
Wake up church and stop putting your eggs in one basket. It hasn't worked very well.
Thank you for visiting. I'll hopefully cover these topics in the weeks ahead.
Not just celebrity pastors but celebrity podcasters who pretend to be experts on theology.
I don’t think Kenneth Copeland, Joel Osteen, Steven Furdick or the other thousands of celebrity pastors adhere to the Doctrines of Grace! The issue is the human condition and its propensity to sin!
@@Chappy1965 agree. Issue is not theology, while that is vitally important. But the human heart and its desire for great influence. Thank you for visiting.
You think a man can't be a celebrity or a betrayer if he parrots Calvinism? He surely can. Watch out, not just for the wolves you mention, but for the wolves you're currently feeding.
@@immanuelcan3310 the deceitful heart (jer 17:9) applies to all Christians, Calvinists, non-Calvinists, celebrity pastors, or ordinary pastors
@@patricklacson Does it apply to celebrity pastors like MacArthur and Piper, or are they infallible and pure of heart? Because those guys most certainly are celebrities of the Calvinist set.
Yet, among the Reformed....Calvin, a self-educated and glorified lay theologian, is as a god.
Sad that no one listened to him. How hard would it be to have country preachers in the line up. Nope. $$ and ego in the way.
I would argue a lot of people did listen to him. There has been a massive decline in the popularity of mega ministries in the past few years like The Gospel Coalition, big conferences etc.
@@doctor1alex interesting
Every culture is a celebrity culture.
No
Maybe. Certainly even in the Apostle Paul's day he had to warn the church about "super apostles." In my own Western culture (Australia), we tend to have a mixture - Anglo's like myself can tend to be overly skeptical of authority, there is a big egalitarian bent in the culture (not just the theology of men/women sameness, but everyone sameness) with the desire in this culture to cut down the tall poppy who is too far above everyone else. There can be a healthy side of this (not taking ourselves too seriously), as well as an unhealthy side where we don't easily submit to right, righteous and godly authority (which we are biblically called to do!). However Anglos can still elevate leaders (such as the Hillsong bloke or indeed even theologically sound leaders).
Asian cultures in the main cities in Australia tend* to be much, much more readily receptive of authority, and see that if someone is in authority/high up, that they must be elevated for a reason (often so!). Sometimes this means however that a Pastor can get away with much too much with little questioning, even with sin, with much too little accountability and no plurality of Elders to ensure faithfulness. In Asian Christian cultures there can also often be an overemphasis on academic success and titles (eg. must have done a Masters or Doctorate to be a Pastor), and little emphasis on the full "three C's" of godly elders/leaders (Character, Conviction and Competency).
So maybe there is a tendency in most cultures to elevate Christian leaders, even if we don't call it "celebrity."
He's only stating the obvious. Celebrity pastorhood (or maybe pastoralised celebrity is a better description) is as inimical to what Jesus is about as for example the gaudy iconography which greets you in many catholic places of worship. The Bible says it better than Trueman and it always has.
I was surprised to see Carl Truman sitting with those "woke" preachers, some of whom are involved in different kinds of scandals than of a sexual nature.
Don't be surprised. Carl Truman has protected Grove City against just criticism of its descent into wokeness, and he inflicted Aimee Byrd on the church. He is also a buddy with Matthew Barrett of Midwest Theological Seminary, a guy who attacks "biblicism" as a trojan horse for neo-Catholicism.
Celebrity is poison.
The Calvin culture raises up, exalts, emphasizes these ‘high powered’ preachers/pastors (past and present) and tells us non-conformists who don’t buy the reformed heresy, “ see, all great scholars are Calvinists” and “ you’re a nobody” “you’re alone” … then we see that these great ones are farses and fakes …
Thank you for visiting.
@grannyblinda
Grace and peace if you are my brother/sister in our LORD Jesus Christ! :)
Yes every man can fall. Yes there are some self-proclaimed Calvanists who are all about themselves. I was one of them, and pray I fight against making it about me everyday.
But what about faithful calvanistic Pastors like mine in New Zealand at my local church in Wellington? My local church in Christchurch?
And what about faithful calvanistic Pastors like Dr. John MacArthur?
Are these people farses and fakes?
Prayers to you and your family!
ben
And now put it into practise. That was good advice.
I’m sorry that you’ve experienced Calvinists causing you to feel lesser than.
In my opinion, the reason we should give for believing in Calvinism isn’t because “all of the scholars do,” but rather because we believe that it is the system of soteriology that we see set forth in the Scriptures.
@@spencerenright I'm sorry that all you hear is Calvinism instead of a warning that transcends all theological systems.
All pastors in the above closed down churches and bowed to the covididolatry. That’s how a celebrity virtue signals.
Thank you for visiting and sharing your thoughts.
Amen.