For those wondering, kinesiology tape is cheap and available at all drug stores on shelf is the best tape for taping your mouth. My tape is 2 inches wide and the roll is about 6-10 feet. I cut with scissors about 3/8 pieces off and have them ready for bed.
Have you tried “inclined bed therapy” where you raise the head side of the bed by 6 inches/15cm so you sleep on a sloped bed? It reduces gravity’s negative effects on the airways and aids circulation. Also it costs nothing.
I get better nasal breathing by using crazy air filtration - HEPA supplied around my head while sleeping. It doesn't fix the bone/cartilage problems, but that plus nose strip finally gave me a life without headaches, and less frequently feeling steam rollered.
I have an IQair pro health plus in my home. It does help a little but there's still airflow resistance when I breathe. I do want to try more robust nose strips though.
Hey! Im not sure if you are aware, but by the looks of it you have some cranial torsion going on. I can recommend to look up Right TMMC Pattern, aswell as Left AIC Right BC Pattern. Cheers
Not sure if you've already tried it, but since your nasal cavity is larger now, it may be easier to tolerate nasal CPAP, and nasal CPAP can be quite effective.
@@markmoore3086 Right, yeah, that's what Dr. Li told me at my appointment. Has the procedure helped your sleep in it self as well though? I'm guessing the effectiveness of the procedure also depends on how small your nasal cavity originally was and how much expansion you achieved. I'm still on the fence about having it done since it seems that for many it is giving only marginal improvement in their sleep.
MSE with 10mm+ expansion combined with an aggressive 3D planned MMA 15-25mm cures sleep apnea. Its a 3dimensional problem. The maxilla is too narrow, too far back, and angled down. You have to treat the root issues
Great update!! Seems pretty normal to not have very much improvement in breathing after expansion, most people seem to need MMA with sleep apnea. Be careful of using a MAD, they can mess up the TMJ and jaw position over time. My friend has major issues now from using one for years. I'm about to start MSE, hoping it helps but guessing MMA down the line. Thanks for sharing your journey. I'm trying to get in for a DISE as well. I also need mandibular expansion, looking into possible sfot.
Hi mate, thanks for the update. For the mouth taping, if you wipe your mouth area with a wet wipe prior to applying micropore it should stay on all night. Some questions: Why don't you have a diastema? Would you consider SARPE before MMA? Could you also do a DISE with mouth tape on? I'm due to have my expander installed in July now but I'm not sure whether to do splint therapy for my TMD first or afterwards. I think EASE first is my goal atm. EASE > TMD splint > TMJ discopexy > MMA. (What a mess!)
1. The teeth naturally shift back together even if the two halves of the palate are moving apart. And EASE aims its forces higher up into the nasal cavity as opposed to the dentoalveolar portion. 2. I would consider SARPE before MMA. It doesn't make sense for me to just jump into MMA before really maximizing nasal breathing gains. 3. This is a great question. I'm not sure but I'll ask my provider. I think that order makes sense for you. Also, 'll be setting up the option to schedule calls with me if you'd like to dive deeper into anything!
Thanks for the updates! I’m considering going down to cali for expansion with Coppelson. Terrified. I already had an mma with little effect. How does your tongue feel with all the more room? Have you tried oral myofunctional therapy and lingual frenectomy with ppl who know what they’re doing? Have you considered reopening premolar extraction sites orthodontically/with SFOT for more tongue spaces? I got more questions for you lol. Was that 3-4mm nasal expansion in front of nasal cavity/maxilla only or back part as well? How does the nasal cavity degree of expansion compare to maxilla expansion and dental expansion? How’s your asymmetry been addressed/resolved? How thin exactly is your palatal bone? Mine is about 2mm and I was told that was thin but I have no frame of reference. You’re looking good!
Hey Jeremy! Thanks for your support! These are great questions - I want to do them justice and dive into more detail with you on these. Since I've been getting a lot of these types of questions, I'm opening up a calendar for individual calls very soon. Stay tuned for the link!
Few things 1. I would try and get your nasal breathing to how it should be. Kind of unclear why it is the way it is. EASE expands the nasal cavity, so if your nasal cavity is now at least average for an adult male I would guess that's probably not a huge problem. Ideally something like 24-26 mm for the aperture would be a good endpoint for you I would imagine. If you did have sufficient expansion, maybe immunotherapy could help if the problem is specifically with the nose? On the other hand the problem may not be located in the nasal cavity but actually the throat, and so in those cases MMA usually helps a lot there. Ideally when you do an MMA you want to be able to breathe at 100% as soon as you wake up, so part of the trick is figuring out how to achieve that. 2. Be very careful with MMA, as especially those who aren't recessed, they may not like the aesthetic result. So really think about that and whether you're a good fit or not for the surgery, and who you choose to do it.
Thanks, Shuikai! I really appreciate your thoughtful analysis and recommendations. I'm equally disappointed that my nasal breathing isn't better than it is given the expansion. First thing I'm going to do is measure the aperture from the CT scan. I'll see if it's atleast 24-26mm. I'm exploring immunotherapy right now. Nasal steroid sprays haven't done much. As for MMA, like you said, II want to make sure I come out with 100% breathing. I want to do a DISE first to see if there actually is a closure happening at the back of the throat. If so, MMA is an option. Even then, if nasal breathing isn't fixed, it won't be 100%. If that means doing another nasal expansion before MMA, so be it.
@@GrowYourFace When measuring try to make sure you do it right. Because of bone density, some might not show up on the scan, so you have to change the sensitivity so more shows up. Also why not try Afrin spray for like one day, just to see what changes there are? It's a very strong spray with addiction/rebound risk though so definitely not something you want to take again and again.
Hey man, your videos have been super helpful in my journey. I just underwent EASE w Dr. Li earlier this week and I have some questions for you: -I know you did TBD/MSE/TBD, but approximately how many months total did you expand with the TBD? How did you and Dr. Li decide to stop expanding? You were turning every other day? -How wide was your diastema throughout the process? It seems p minimal from this clip -What type of orthodontic work are you going to move forward with? -Did you have any noticeable aesthetic changes (positive or negative) after expansion? Any obvious asymmetries outside of the initial one caused by the TBD placement? Thanks so much, your channel has been the best information source I've found on this process!
Can so relate to your journey bro, just you took the correct sequence. Am going for EASE in 2 x weeks. I previously had MMA with an advancement of 8mm [got me from havjng severe OSA to having minor OSA/UARS]. Am hopeful for the EASE but know that it might not get me out of the woods. After EASE I may need revision MMA and or tonsilectomy. Not a fun journey, but a good nights rest is so important. Any updates on your journey?
@@Palasha-v3k wishing you the best with your EASE brother. I am closing in on choosing the surgeon for my MMA. Once that’s locked in, I’ll make an update. Shooting for minimum of 10mm advancement to cure sleep apnea a
Good to hear man, wish it would give you the best result. I know someone who cured their OSA with expansion and MMA, their advancement was 21mm at the pogonion, not sure if they had a genio or not, but it was definitely a large advancement. Its the second day of my EASE recovery at the moment. Would be good to somehow chat more freely about our journies?
I live in Australia and am thinking of doing Ease with DR li in the states, do you have any socials for me to ask some questions? I am also a difficult case so its hard to get info.
Sorry to bug you.....Did you stay with Dr. Kasey Li for the total expansion? Double Jaw Surgery seems so extreme.....Are you going to a Cranial Sacral Osteopath?
To be honest you I feel like you should have just opted for a double jaw surgery from the get-go. It looks like you also need advancement on top of just expansion alone.
on 4:40 you coment your RR is a bit lower, can you tell some numbers? (like the before and after to put some numbers on the improvement) i have like 13/minute when i sleep. also your Heart rate when your sleep its better? mine is about 60bpm, i just bought the oura ring like 2 days ago, great channel and good work.
Question - did you feel a difference earlier or later in your EASE? As in - after you woke up vs. 2 months? Also, what were the results of your previous sleep study (AHI / RDI)?
I felt a minor difference the day but it was a slow progression over the course of 3-4 months. I still need to do another sleep study to get post-EASE AHI/RDI. I'll do this once the TPD is removed so that I can sleep with my tongue on the roof of my mouth. It'll be more accurate.
There are multiple types of facemasks that can achieve this (for younger folks). Sandra Khan's Bow is one. For me, I need way more up and forward movement than what's possible with these devices so I'll be getting double jaw surgery (advancement) to accomplish this.
@@GrowYourFace but a double jaw surgery wont move your cheekbones up like it would if we remodeled the bones naturally... that is why I didnt do the jaw surgery, also it is extremely invasive! Good luck to you, hope it turns out good for you!
@@ssk363 I know, I'm bummed I'll miss out on cheekbone movement but my top priority is getting enough advancement to really open up the pharyngeal airway and cure my sleep apnea... and it seems like that will require at least 10 or more millimeters of advancement. It doesn't seem feasible to achieve that much movement with the Bow.
@@GrowYourFace Dr David Buck does not only palatal expansion but he also make his own device that pushes maxilla up and forward in adults! He is in the US though..
If you want to go beyond the 3-4 mm, why not continue with the expansion phase? When I consulted with Dr. Kasey Li, he told me the expansion phase can be continued in theory forever (up to and even beyond 10 mm) but is stopped in practice when no further improvements in nasal breathing are experienced (usually around 5 - 7 mm). Did you stop because you were not noticing further improvements?
For me, I had to stop in large part because of my bite. The upper jaw can expand too large for the lower jaw. Then what do you do? There's no suture on the mandible. I know Dr. Yusefian does something like DAME.
@@markmoore3086 I will have EASE done within the next few months. How much expansion were you able to achieve? Will you need to have braces or invisalign to correct your bite and/or diasemta? Are you happy you had the procedure done?
If you haven’t already, orofacial myofunctional therapy to improve tongue tone and position to keep it out of the airway.
For those wondering, kinesiology tape is cheap and available at all drug stores on shelf is the best tape for taping your mouth. My tape is 2 inches wide and the roll is about 6-10 feet. I cut with scissors about 3/8 pieces off and have them ready for bed.
Good luck with your journey
Nice update, I think, hormonal improvement result of exercise and a good diet can also help a lot, to get results even further. Good luck
Thanks for the updates, I've been looking into doing ease for a while. I'd love to see your updates for MMA as well.
Thanks for following! I'll keep up the updates as I learn more about MMA!
Have you tried “inclined bed therapy” where you raise the head side of the bed by 6 inches/15cm so you sleep on a sloped bed? It reduces gravity’s negative effects on the airways and aids circulation. Also it costs nothing.
I just got this! It's definitely been helping so far
So crazy. I was just thinking about you yesterday and wondering how everything was going with the expansion.
😏
Haha, appreciate your thoughts!
I get better nasal breathing by using crazy air filtration - HEPA supplied around my head while sleeping. It doesn't fix the bone/cartilage problems, but that plus nose strip finally gave me a life without headaches, and less frequently feeling steam rollered.
I have an IQair pro health plus in my home. It does help a little but there's still airflow resistance when I breathe. I do want to try more robust nose strips though.
Thankyou for the update. xx
Have you noticed any cosmetic benefits like wider smile and better under eye support?
Hey! Im not sure if you are aware, but by the looks of it you have some cranial torsion going on. I can recommend to look up Right TMMC Pattern, aswell as Left AIC Right BC Pattern. Cheers
Not sure if you've already tried it, but since your nasal cavity is larger now, it may be easier to tolerate nasal CPAP, and nasal CPAP can be quite effective.
I'm wrapping up EASE now, and that's one thing I've noticed... CPAP is more tolerable now than it was before.
@@markmoore3086 Right, yeah, that's what Dr. Li told me at my appointment. Has the procedure helped your sleep in it self as well though? I'm guessing the effectiveness of the procedure also depends on how small your nasal cavity originally was and how much expansion you achieved. I'm still on the fence about having it done since it seems that for many it is giving only marginal improvement in their sleep.
MSE with 10mm+ expansion combined with an aggressive 3D planned MMA 15-25mm cures sleep apnea.
Its a 3dimensional problem. The maxilla is too narrow, too far back, and angled down. You have to treat the root issues
Great update!! Seems pretty normal to not have very much improvement in breathing after expansion, most people seem to need MMA with sleep apnea. Be careful of using a MAD, they can mess up the TMJ and jaw position over time. My friend has major issues now from using one for years. I'm about to start MSE, hoping it helps but guessing MMA down the line. Thanks for sharing your journey. I'm trying to get in for a DISE as well. I also need mandibular expansion, looking into possible sfot.
Hi mate, thanks for the update. For the mouth taping, if you wipe your mouth area with a wet wipe prior to applying micropore it should stay on all night.
Some questions:
Why don't you have a diastema?
Would you consider SARPE before MMA?
Could you also do a DISE with mouth tape on?
I'm due to have my expander installed in July now but I'm not sure whether to do splint therapy for my TMD first or afterwards. I think EASE first is my goal atm. EASE > TMD splint > TMJ discopexy > MMA. (What a mess!)
1. The teeth naturally shift back together even if the two halves of the palate are moving apart. And EASE aims its forces higher up into the nasal cavity as opposed to the dentoalveolar portion.
2. I would consider SARPE before MMA. It doesn't make sense for me to just jump into MMA before really maximizing nasal breathing gains.
3. This is a great question. I'm not sure but I'll ask my provider.
I think that order makes sense for you. Also, 'll be setting up the option to schedule calls with me if you'd like to dive deeper into anything!
You face looks more symmetric now.
Thanks for the updates! I’m considering going down to cali for expansion with Coppelson. Terrified. I already had an mma with little effect. How does your tongue feel with all the more room? Have you tried oral myofunctional therapy and lingual frenectomy with ppl who know what they’re doing? Have you considered reopening premolar extraction sites orthodontically/with SFOT for more tongue spaces? I got more questions for you lol. Was that 3-4mm nasal expansion in front of nasal cavity/maxilla only or back part as well? How does the nasal cavity degree of expansion compare to maxilla expansion and dental expansion? How’s your asymmetry been addressed/resolved? How thin exactly is your palatal bone? Mine is about 2mm and I was told that was thin but I have no frame of reference. You’re looking good!
Hey Jeremy! Thanks for your support! These are great questions - I want to do them justice and dive into more detail with you on these. Since I've been getting a lot of these types of questions, I'm opening up a calendar for individual calls very soon. Stay tuned for the link!
Few things
1. I would try and get your nasal breathing to how it should be. Kind of unclear why it is the way it is. EASE expands the nasal cavity, so if your nasal cavity is now at least average for an adult male I would guess that's probably not a huge problem. Ideally something like 24-26 mm for the aperture would be a good endpoint for you I would imagine. If you did have sufficient expansion, maybe immunotherapy could help if the problem is specifically with the nose? On the other hand the problem may not be located in the nasal cavity but actually the throat, and so in those cases MMA usually helps a lot there. Ideally when you do an MMA you want to be able to breathe at 100% as soon as you wake up, so part of the trick is figuring out how to achieve that.
2. Be very careful with MMA, as especially those who aren't recessed, they may not like the aesthetic result. So really think about that and whether you're a good fit or not for the surgery, and who you choose to do it.
Thanks, Shuikai! I really appreciate your thoughtful analysis and recommendations. I'm equally disappointed that my nasal breathing isn't better than it is given the expansion. First thing I'm going to do is measure the aperture from the CT scan. I'll see if it's atleast 24-26mm.
I'm exploring immunotherapy right now. Nasal steroid sprays haven't done much. As for MMA, like you said, II want to make sure I come out with 100% breathing. I want to do a DISE first to see if there actually is a closure happening at the back of the throat. If so, MMA is an option. Even then, if nasal breathing isn't fixed, it won't be 100%. If that means doing another nasal expansion before MMA, so be it.
@@GrowYourFace When measuring try to make sure you do it right. Because of bone density, some might not show up on the scan, so you have to change the sensitivity so more shows up.
Also why not try Afrin spray for like one day, just to see what changes there are? It's a very strong spray with addiction/rebound risk though so definitely not something you want to take again and again.
Does immunotherapy make you immune forever after a ~3 year course? Or do you have to keep doing it forever?
Hey man, your videos have been super helpful in my journey. I just underwent EASE w Dr. Li earlier this week and I have some questions for you:
-I know you did TBD/MSE/TBD, but approximately how many months total did you expand with the TBD? How did you and Dr. Li decide to stop expanding? You were turning every other day?
-How wide was your diastema throughout the process? It seems p minimal from this clip
-What type of orthodontic work are you going to move forward with?
-Did you have any noticeable aesthetic changes (positive or negative) after expansion? Any obvious asymmetries outside of the initial one caused by the TBD placement?
Thanks so much, your channel has been the best information source I've found on this process!
Can so relate to your journey bro, just you took the correct sequence. Am going for EASE in 2 x weeks. I previously had MMA with an advancement of 8mm [got me from havjng severe OSA to having minor OSA/UARS]. Am hopeful for the EASE but know that it might not get me out of the woods. After EASE I may need revision MMA and or tonsilectomy. Not a fun journey, but a good nights rest is so important. Any updates on your journey?
@@Palasha-v3k wishing you the best with your EASE brother. I am closing in on choosing the surgeon for my MMA. Once that’s locked in, I’ll make an update. Shooting for minimum of 10mm advancement to cure sleep apnea a
Good to hear man, wish it would give you the best result. I know someone who cured their OSA with expansion and MMA, their advancement was 21mm at the pogonion, not sure if they had a genio or not, but it was definitely a large advancement. Its the second day of my EASE recovery at the moment. Would be good to somehow chat more freely about our journies?
Can you tell me.....did the surgical split of the maxilla take place under local or general anaesthetics? Thankyou
I live in Australia and am thinking of doing Ease with DR li in the states, do you have any socials for me to ask some questions? I am also a difficult case so its hard to get info.
Hey, did you end up going to the states for EASE? :)
Have you got any asymmetrys on your palate?
Garcia Sandra Anderson Charles Thomas William
Sorry to bug you.....Did you stay with Dr. Kasey Li for the total expansion? Double Jaw Surgery seems so extreme.....Are you going to a Cranial Sacral Osteopath?
Do you feel you look different? ie. better looking?
To be honest you I feel like you should have just opted for a double jaw surgery from the get-go. It looks like you also need advancement on top of just expansion alone.
on 4:40 you coment your RR is a bit lower, can you tell some numbers? (like the before and after to put some numbers on the improvement) i have like 13/minute when i sleep.
also your Heart rate when your sleep its better? mine is about 60bpm, i just bought the oura ring like 2 days ago, great channel and good work.
sorry the average HR its about 63-65
any change in width of your face? expansion in cheeckbones?
Question - did you feel a difference earlier or later in your EASE? As in - after you woke up vs. 2 months? Also, what were the results of your previous sleep study (AHI / RDI)?
I felt a minor difference the day but it was a slow progression over the course of 3-4 months. I still need to do another sleep study to get post-EASE AHI/RDI. I'll do this once the TPD is removed so that I can sleep with my tongue on the roof of my mouth. It'll be more accurate.
@@GrowYourFace Got it, But, what were your AHI/RDI results of your first sleep study?
Are you still under the guidance of Dr. Li?
Are you planning on moving maxilla up and forward? I heard there is a device for that as well, not just palatal expansion
What device is this? Are you talking about the reverse pull facemask/headgear pr something else?
There are multiple types of facemasks that can achieve this (for younger folks). Sandra Khan's Bow is one. For me, I need way more up and forward movement than what's possible with these devices so I'll be getting double jaw surgery (advancement) to accomplish this.
@@GrowYourFace but a double jaw surgery wont move your cheekbones up like it would if we remodeled the bones naturally... that is why I didnt do the jaw surgery, also it is extremely invasive! Good luck to you, hope it turns out good for you!
@@ssk363 I know, I'm bummed I'll miss out on cheekbone movement but my top priority is getting enough advancement to really open up the pharyngeal airway and cure my sleep apnea... and it seems like that will require at least 10 or more millimeters of advancement. It doesn't seem feasible to achieve that much movement with the Bow.
@@GrowYourFace Dr David Buck does not only palatal expansion but he also make his own device that pushes maxilla up and forward in adults! He is in the US though..
Hey man, Loved these updates I have a burning question did your Nose Get wider by the end of Treatment.
Maybe with myofunctional therapy you will see more improvement after getting all this done
Is it possible to wear headgear with ease?
Unfortunately, it isn't. There are no points of anchorage from the TPD to attach any form of headgear to.
@@GrowYourFace So would you say mse is better for those also looking for forward movement of maxilla
@@swagpeach9850 Yes, because the MSE can be made to have anchors on the outer arms for something like a facemask to attach to.
How much does this jaw expander costs ?
40-50k
30k actually
If you want to go beyond the 3-4 mm, why not continue with the expansion phase? When I consulted with Dr. Kasey Li, he told me the expansion phase can be continued in theory forever (up to and even beyond 10 mm) but is stopped in practice when no further improvements in nasal breathing are experienced (usually around 5 - 7 mm). Did you stop because you were not noticing further improvements?
For me, I had to stop in large part because of my bite. The upper jaw can expand too large for the lower jaw. Then what do you do? There's no suture on the mandible. I know Dr. Yusefian does something like DAME.
@@markmoore3086 I will have EASE done within the next few months. How much expansion were you able to achieve? Will you need to have braces or invisalign to correct your bite and/or diasemta? Are you happy you had the procedure done?
@@dxftxsaplo yes you have to
MMA?
Maxillo mandibular advancement. Double jaw surgery.
People have a really hard time accepting the way they look
Such a blind comment.