Champion Fighter sucks in Dnd 5e! - Advanced guide to Champion Fighter
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- Опубликовано: 5 ноя 2022
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Personal homebrew idea, for Champion: Just condense things down, then add more Fighter. For example:
Improved Critical:
Beginning when you choose this archetype at 3rd level, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 18-20.
Survivor:
Starting at 7th level, at the start of each of your turns, you regain hit points equal to 5 + your Constitution modifier if you have no more than half of your hit points left. You don't gain this benefit if you have 0 hit points.
At level 15, you regain hit points equal to 10 + your Constitution modifier instead, so long as you are not at full health.
Additional Feat:
When you reach 10th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. As normal, you can't increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.
Superior Champion:
At 15th level, you can choose a second option from the Fighting Style class feature.
In addition, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 15-20.
Indomitable Warrior:
At 18th level, you attain the pinnacle of battle prowess, befitting that of a true Champion. When you score a critical hit, roll all of the attack’s damage dice _four_ times instead, and add them together. Then add any relevant modifiers as normal. Furthermore, whenever you land a critical hit, you may regain hit points equal to 1d20 + your fighter level.
Not sure how underpowered/overpowered this may be. However, it's at least better than what we started with.
how good then would champions be if the critical damage was improved by say having crit damage be your normal weapons attack roll + your weapons attack roll maximised so in the case of the great sword wielder with great weapon master its 2d6+STR+12+10
I was wondering first, but then realized, I mistook the Champion for the Battle Master Class.
Jesus Fuck, that Class *is* shitty - it is hard to be worse than an Eldritch Knight (you are always better of Multiclassing), but that one nails it.
To work properly, it should have all 5 Levels the Critrange expanded by 1 (5th, 10th, 15th, 20th) and should have the Chance to get Advantage on its own alike the Lucky Feat with a +1 on 6th, 12th and 18th.
That Way you could create a Powerful but individual Build by forming its "Style" via Feats individually but you prevent misuse of that Class through Multiclassing while keeping it interesting to Moulticlass something into it itself.
But, I gotta say, that would still be a Class I consider "boring" to play - opposed to the Battle Master. It's just "Math", what you play is not a "Campion" or such - you are a buffed up Classless Fighter.
@@Rabijeel i think every class should have a subclass that just builds on the main features, a subclass thats simple and easy to use for beginners but its only an OK class
every other subclass then can use it as a reference for "these features must be at least this powerful or better"
if so many classes suck and mechanics in dnd then why even bother playing the game?
Add Champion to the barbarian base class. Makes the brutal critical feature a little bit better.
Brutal critical is so funny because its a 1 dpr increase.
@@PackTactics I am Playing my first dnd round and i am playing a barbarian. I have the idea of multiclass into 3 fighter levels (champion) with the fighting style of Great Weapon Fighting. Dont know (and care that much) how good that actually would be.but it soundy like a heavy weapon master barbarian.
@@PackTactics yo can also put paladin and be the ultimate crit fisher whit smites
@@christianmarquez4673
Would rather have a Hexadin hexblade / paladin. Go half elf Drow and use your he blades curse and elven accuracy for Super advantage and crits at 19/20.
If you score a critical you could the apply smite, eldrith smite and also double your weapons damage as well as the hex damage you have. This can pump out around 250 dmg in one turn, but burns a lot of resources as well.
Decent for Boss fight, otherwise you can just keep shooting eldrith blasts from the distance.
I do this but make it is a fighter sub-class, also I give the survivor at 7th level and if the campaign does get to 18th level I give the option of increasing the healing to 10 + 2.5*con mod or removing the half HP restriction. The latter gets chosen more often because I allow the healing to tick outside of combat so Fighters at 18th level start at full hp for every encounter.
My first pc was a champion dual wielding fighter.
There was a hand crossbow battle master in the party, I felt completely inadequate. It nearly put me off d&d
It was your first character, no one expected it to be good. Stiff upper lipp wot wot
But who was cooler though
His character was cooler than mine for 14 levels....then I died and my bard rocked (in many senses of the word)
@@danielbarr1377 that isn't even a question, obviously the Battlemaster was cooler, Battlemaster is just better than Champion in every way. Champion is another sub-class that suffers from being designed for a longer adventuring day than most parties actually play, same as Warlock, if adventuring days were longer they'd be balanced but those days aren't longer so they are underwhelming.
@@danielbarr1377 Obviously battle masters are cooler than champions, even their dice are superior
The designers of D&D are aware.
Actual quote from Mordenkainen in MoM, published by WoTC: "Bountiful and overrated. You can't spit in this realm without hitting one. I have witnessed the birth, death, and unlife of more champions than I dare recount. Few are worth remembering."
Thats funny I didn't know that. I never read MoM because theres no kobolds in that book.
@@PackTactics but there are? Kobolds got updated.
@@russellee5216 I think it's a joke about kobolds losing Pack Tactics and therefore not being True Kobolds.
@@russellee5216 there are no kobolds in Ba Sing Se.
@@lucasramey6427 I laughed out loud... Oops
I just had a player, who has started dnd for the first time, join a long term campaign that I run. He plays a fighter, and when I asked him what subclass he was aiming for, he said wanted to play a champion. I encouraged him to perhaps play other subclasses explaining some of the difficulties of the subclass, but he really wanted to play it. So in not wanting to take that choice away from him I thought it best for him to forward with it. Since then I have made sure that I compensate the lack of power with things like early magic items, custom abilities he inherits from NPCs, and other story rewards, and it's been very interesting. So in some weird way, his low power subclass choice forced me to really pay attention to his character and create lore that supports how he attains these new abilities, which I find kind of cool, and maybe the good part of a low power subclasses.
this (and champion generally) feels like 1st or 2nd edition design. collecting moves, abilities, and magic items to make up for your class’s lack of interesting stuff used to just be how you played the game, and i think there’s definitely a kind of game where the champion would work.
it doesn’t work in a game that has things like the hexblade, battlemaster, and arcane trickster though. if everyone else is getting meaningful subclasses that have a transformative effect on how you play the game, they either won’t be motivated to get magic items or would be far more powerful than the champion.
@@Hazel-xl8in Well said, both of you. I really do like the premise of that fantasy. However, I have to wonder whether it's a testament to good game design when the reason you like a subclass is because it forces you to DM harder. That just sounds like a subclass that fails to hand out interesting tools - at least when you compare it to other subclasses.
I wouldn't be opposed to a line of subclasses and custom rules that were designed for this kind of play. However, I think those two groups need to be well differentiated.
This can get easily exploited if the underpowered PC starts handing his free gear to his allies.
@@xdan- Oh just to clarify, his character was not getting these things for free, he very much earned them. And he's only got one magic item, which wouldn't benefit the other players even if they could use them. I agree it would be weird if they got magic items easily, and then started giving them to their allies, thus further creating a gap in power.
Which is how dnd is supposed to be played all of the core rulebooks are just a starting point and the best part of dnd is giving players abilities unque to the campaign
WOW. Kobold's homebrew really fixed this class and I'm really excited to playtest this.
Omg I busted a guy when he said it and again when I read your comment.
I think you missed one of the other big issues with Champion fighter... it's 100% passive, and the bonuses you get are purely numbers.
You can get the experience of playing a champion fighter by playing literally any other fighter subclass, the only unique feature it gets is at level 18 with the regeneration! Not saying that every subclass needs special actions (although they do help) but more that they need to modify the base kit in a not insignificant way, the champion features are barely a blip on the radar and can honestly be pretty easily forgotten during the game.
I think this was intentional. As far as I can tell, it was designed to have as little complexity as possible so anyone could play it easily. No thoughts, only Bonk.
If I were to rework the class, I would probably keep it just as passive, and only buff its numbers. Maybe make it like the Brute Fighter UA.
@@lucario5748 The problem with a "passive only" class is that it really *isn't* new player friendly... quite the opposite in fact.
Let's say you're playing at a typical table where the game master isn't expected to memorize every single feature that every player has at their disposal. Who is going to remember when these passive features kick in? With unique actions it's easy to give a new player a character sheet that sums up every action/bonus action/reaction they have all in the same place, but passive triggers? You need to know they exist, and it's easy to lose them in all the other features you have. Effectively giving a new player champion fighter might as well be giving them a subclassless fighter.
@@kevingriffith6011 And Sidekicks fulfill that purpose much better by not pretending that a completely passive class with no features other than attacks is on the same level as something that can interact with the world in meaningful ways, not just out of but in combat as well.
Martials are A, Casters are A+B
I actually started a thing where i roll my stats before choosing a character, because the only way to enjoy being a champion is to roll at least 3 16s or higher and then you can practically ignore ASI and grab all the feats for all the flavor. Had a Champion at lvl 20 with a 20 str, 20 dex and a 22 con. He had mobile, remarkable recovery, cruel, mystic conflux, and i took duel wielding so i could fire 4 guns in one turn. My god he was terrifying.
A homebrew rule we use at our table is when calculating crit damage you simply add an additional maxed out damage die instead of rolling it. It helps with both the numbers and feeling epic (few things feel more lame than rolling two ones for your damage).
Yep. It's what Treantmonk recommended for the barbarian's Brutal Critical and it definitely works here too.
Yeah, I had an artificer with one attack per turn and a 1d6+1d4 magic weapon he made (he wasn't supposed to be in melee really but it ended up happening) and I remember critting for 1,1,1,2+1 damage. 6 damage was the saddest crit ever, considering that even his 12 strength butt should have averaged 13
Same
Stealing ty
There is a beauty in the simplicity of the starter classes given to us in the starter set. However, none of them really carry over once you’ve learned the game (except Evocation Wizard, whom I still love to this day. And life cleric.)
But yeah, if one wanted to grow from this and double down on the crit monstrosity, just go Samurai. Ended a 5-year campaign last December. One of my players ran a level 20 Samurai. Had a Flame Tongue Katana and a belt of Storm Giant strength (which the party crafted for him from the corpse of an Elder Tempest).
Point is, with 10 attacks, 8 of which at advantage, one could expect 1-2 crits a turn and over 200 damage per round.
I truly believe that Samurai is the next step up from Champion. Similar playstyle, flexible, fishes for crits, and lays out numbers
I'd say that the Fiend Patron withstood the test of time, for the most part. The only real change I'd like (and is what I implement in my games) is that the 6th level feature Dark One's Own Luck can be used prof times per long rest.
Hey man. I see what you're saying. But there are a few subclasses from the phb that are still good. Bear totem barbarian, fiendlock, moon druid, life cleric, vengeance paladin, evocation wizard, arcane trickster rogue, I like shadow monk but w/e and tbh I'm a dm but eldritch knight fighters do okay at my table.
I'd talk about sorceror and ranger too but we both know those are better cuz of later books. I do see your main point and this is really more nitpicking, you are correct, I'm just saying don't limit your creative options cuz of a, what do you call it? Like a false bias?
I can't remember the last time at least one of my players wasn't playing something from the phb
@@ohmygoditisspider7953 I think he's talking about the core rulebook subclasses, which are all like mondo simple.
@@aegisScale so was I. Every class I mentioned is in the core rulebook called "The Player's Handbook"
The only non-niche benefit I’ve seen to Champion is that it’s easy for new players to understand. Fighter is already a good introductory class for simplicity, and champion doubles down on it. Which sucks when the new player looks at the numbers and realizes they’re basically a wet sock.
It's also very easy for new players to forget exists. 100% of the features are passives, so unless you the game master are paying attention their subclass may as well not even exist most of the time. A well-structured character sheet makes active class features super easy to remember for new players, but you have to be aware of your passives at all times, and even experienced players usually aren't.
My hot take is that the fighter is a bad introductory class, because it requires a fair amount of game knowledge to be efective.
Barbarian is better IMO because of his baseline active abilities
I don't get the mentality of shoehorning new players into playing the most boring and inefective class/subclass imagineable.
Have players be introduced to the game with what they will actually experience. PHB Sorcerer is probably the best class for a completely new player to try.
@@Terker2 The best class for a new character is the one they're the most interested in playing. Even wizard can be made simple to play with a little effort from the DM
@@alvaroignacioriquelmezamud7417 +1 to that. Barbarians are ALREADY a super limited and crazy simple class with even less resources to manage than a fighter.
I think (and hope) that for the next ed. of D&D, the Champion's features will blend into the main Fighter class features. My reasonning behind this is that the Fighting Style is now a feat, and, as seen with the Ranger presentation, multiple FS can be taken. Which is a Champion feature. So I guess we'll be saying bye bye to this subclass, and, hopefully, see it blend with the main class.
If the 1DD features we've seen so far are anything to go by, it SEEMS like WoC are content with streamlining things to the point of making some things bad. Rogues got very light nerfs, Ranger's very light buffs, Bards very light buffs. But in the name of streamlining, Bards have seemingly more limited spellcasting access, and Rogues can't abuse Reaction SA's anymore.
I have no faith for the Warrior reworks. None whatsoever.
I'd much rather Battlemaster be folded into the core class and Champion to be based around being an athlete and/or a gladiator.
@@silverbro13 rogues didn't get a slight nerf.
It's a pretty potent nerf. One sneak attack per round.
Survival feats are a level later.
@@37thgungrunts One SA per round is the intended use of SA. I've never met a player who has exploited RAW to get multiple per turn, especially if it's something like an Arcane Trickster who has other things they can do.
@@silverbro13 are you perhaps mixing up round, and turn? Everyone takes one turn and that's a round.
Honestly champions could be good if they did the 18-20 earlier, and champions alone got to double all damage on crits, at like 11th level. So strength modifiers, magic modifiers. Basically make those crits feel better then just an extra d8 or whatever the weapon does
To me a champion should be a guy who seems like a normal dude until faced with insurmountable odds and then draws on hidden strength to level the playing field. Like an anime protagonist. Maybe a future iteration can let him do bonus damage against enemies that are higher level than him or something.
Brute Fighter UA was supposed to basically be a replacement for Champion, to bring it up to par. But everyone who did the survey didn't realize that and it never got officially published.
I know he concludes by saying that Champion is akin to playing a subclass-less Fighter, but a tip from me to you: If you really want to go from 3 to 20 without a subclass, play an Arcane Archer and don't use a bow. Every one of your class features except the bonus skill proficiency you get is tied to these two weapon options. If you're sword-and-boarding, you can only access base Fighter features, so you functionally have no subclass until you use a bow. Enjoy!
Good to see "Crit Sucks part 2"
No wonder I see so much "Champion Fixes" around here
You could make improved crits a base barbarian feature; combined with reckless attack that'd actually make the brutal critical feature more meaningful. Then just give the other 3 champion features to base fighter at levels 5, 11, and 17
But kobold its fighter with extra fighter added!
It's fighter with niche accessories, which is terrible
I actually do really well with crit-fishing builds. I end up getting critical hits about 50% of the time.
I'm also using a die where half the sides are 20 but hey, I'm playing a *Fighter* , I'm still contributing less than the Wizard on his off day.
While I do not like the sub class one thing people forget is that crit auto hit. This mean that you will ways hit on 10% (15% later) vs others 5%. This does not save the subclass but does help you to hit if the DM likes to put crazy high ac monsters.
I was thinking that rather than pure damage, the secondary effects of critical hits might be more desirable, like multiclassing champion with something that can utilize crusher/slasher/piercer in multi-hit attacks (preferably under advantage). Shadow monks, dao genie warlocks, hunter rangers, or scribes wizards come to mind. On top of a basic crit, passively forcing disadvantage on a powerful enemy's attacks and/or bestowing advantage against them for the entire team (including any remaining attacks in your flurry) seems like a better outcome than crit-fishing for individual damage. Fighter conveniently offers blind fighting style, if you can sensibly use darkness/fog cloud in team play.
Makes me want to play thrown weapon fighting champion with a handaxe-wielding, devil's sight dao warlock, using both crusher and slasher. Ripe for paladin levels as well (maybe oath of the crown, to keep the enemy trapped within or at the edge of my concealment).
A video that I would like to see would be an overview of each of the Base Martial classes from strongest (aka needs the least fixing) to the weakest (aka needs the most fixing)
Also, I don't remember why you said rogues were the second weakest class so this video would be a good way to address each of the Martial's weaknesses design wise and maybe wven way they could be fixed.
I homebrew that at 8 Champion gains one more Action Surge per day and restores on short rest, and at 10 the Champion increases the critical multiplier of any weapon by 1, to a x3. At level 15 they do double strength on all attacks as well as 18-20 critical. At level 18, once per day, they can automatically succeed on a single saving throw once per long rest.
Love the homebrew, so elaborate, so fun. At least I laughed when I heard it
I hope my DM accepts it!
It might seem like a negative homebrew but its not. Its good for the game. We shouldn't have a trap option this bad in our games.
I really think Champion is a great subclass for NPC Fighters. Keep it simple-ish while still having a full-on adventurer as an NPC. Can be ally, neutral, or enemy.
@@theuncalledfor counter point: why not make a subclassless fighter as the npc?
@@limaTheNoob
Because a Champion is still stronger and more interesting than a subclassless Fighter, even if only slightly.
I love your homebrew ideas for the Champion!
Make Champion fighter a barbarian subclass with the following changes;
1. it starts out as a tanky subclass option. The capstone is now the level 3 feature, and rather than it being tied to your hp, it's tied to rage. While you are raging, you regain 5+con hp at the beginning of each of your turns. This makes this subclass stronger than totem warrior at early levels, but due to it being a fairly static amount of HP, it scales worse and balances out.
2. Remarkable Athlete isn't a combat feature. It could be a second 3rd level feature or scrapped altogether. I think making it a 3rd level feature is fine.
3. At level 6, you gain your crit feature, but it lets you crit on a 18, 19, or 20 like the capstone feature. It's at this point that your HP regen ability starts to perform worse than bear totem, so you need to make up for it with an actually good combat ability.
4. At level 10, gaining a fighting style from the fighter skill list isn't too bad, since Barbarian doesn't get fighting style options. It's a bit boring, but is fine. It would be better to get something like Elven Accuracy, but for STR weapons.
5. Since the capstone was moved to level 6, the barb needs a new capstone feature. You're level 14, towards end game. So it should be strong. If I were to take a note from WotC's book, it would be underpowered. Something like; once per turn, when you land a critical hit, you can make an additional attack as part of your attack action. If you hit the same creature with this extra attack, the creature is considered vulnerable to the damage. It sounds strong but isn't that strong. The stronger ability would be to just give Barb a third attack here, rather than a situational attack that deals double damage.
DM: Everyone ready?
Party: Yeah!
DM: um it seems you are missing a few levels
Optimizer: Yeah I wanted a challenge and thought it was only fair I started here.
DM:...
Optimizer: I can add in monk levels if that makes you feel better they are fairly empty anyway
DM: *tightens blackbelt "Let us begin"
Just to play around with numbers a bit, if we're optimizing for crit damage specfically i'd reccomend a half-orc with a greataxe, that way instead of doing 4d6+str on a crit we're doing 3d12
A lv3 champion fighter half orc with a great axe is doing 1.3 crit damage, or 2.47 with advantage (With action surge you just double it for 2.3 or 4.94 with adv). Let's skip to level 20, where we're doing 7.8 crit damage, or 14.43 with advantage (action surge equals 15.6 or 28.86 with advantage).
It's still freaking god awful, deffinately not worth biulding for. Especially at 20th level, and with it being the main feature of your subclass (at least the one everyone is hyped about) but it's almost on the verge of being something. (and excuse me if my math is wrong, as far as I can tell it's correct but these numbers seem way to high.)
As part of my homebrew to this subclass, I gave it the following benefits to hammer home the "I am a font of raw natural athletic talent and performance" fantasy:
-Reliable Skills with Athletics and Acrobatics (treat rolls of 9 or lower as 10)
-Move up to half speed when you Action Surge or Second Wind for free
-+1 to an ability score of your choice every time you gain a subclass feature - can't repeat the choice on any ability score, so you can't just stack one score
-Saving throw rerolls with Indomitable are made with advantage
-When you use your action to make weapon attacks, you can use your bonus action to make a single extra attack on the second to last subclass feature - essentially an extra attack if you're using your ENTIRE turn to make attacks
-Crit on 18-20 at capstone
The way I like to think about Fighter subclasses is to consider the Fighter class as a whole as a sandwich. The base class is the bread, with the subclass being the juicy insides . . . therefore, a Champion Fighter is a bread sandwich. You could've put anything else on your sandwich, _literally anything else_ to make the sandwich more interesting, but I guess if you wanna eat a lotta bread you _can . . ._ Just don't expect to win any sandwich contests.
Ironically, the champion does not win the contest
bread sandwiches, which actually do exist in the UK
Thanks for the vid. You could add champion features to base class fighter (whilst also making other buffs to barbarian and monk).
Maybe we can try the Pathfinder idea +1 is to hit but adds dice instead of flat 1 damage? So a +3 great sword would be prof+str+3 to hit and 5d6+str or 10d6+str on a crit?
In pathfinder, at least 2e, they're separate, and a "mundane" weapon can be modified with runes, so first off is the potency rune, giving you +x to attacks, and then there's the striking rune, giving you an extra die.
"gators in the soup" - someone from the discord server upon seeing that image
I made a homebrew fix for the champion, I tried to maintain the theme (being very simple and straightforward) and design philosophy of the campion (the design philosophy of not getting any consumable resources).
On 3rd level I added one tool and one skill proficiency.
On 7th I reworded remarkable athlete. Instead you gain expertise in athletics, +10 speed and max jump distance is doubled.
On 10th you also gain proficiency in one saving throw of your choice.
On 15th you also gain 1 legendary resistance per long rest.
On 18th your regeneration instead heals you up to full HP.
I think the 7th level is a lot more straightforward and simple, and more impactful too. Didn't want to just give them more combat stuff, the extra skill and tool at level 3 should help a little with that. And at level 10 the free resilience feels like it's good enough when combined with the extra fighting style.
I don't think the 15th superior critical is quite good enough, that's why I added legendary resistance. It's kinda cool to let a PC have LR.
That sounds actually really good! All the talk about balance and number crunching in dnd feels a bit odd for me. As i see it, choosing class and subclass is to a good extent also a choice on game design experience and difficulty, so i think i understand what the designers were going for when they put up the champion subclass. I think your hb hits the design intentions and makes it more interesting. Nice.
@@DonCarmolo thanks
Great video. But, as someone who plays a Drow Warlock with “Elven Accuracy”, I feel the need to clarify a misconception you said during the video. You see feat grants you Super Advantage (3d20 rolls) take the highest on any any attack roll that uses DEX, INT, WIS, or CHA. Which I find to be an extremely useful asset for crit fishing with my Hexblade.
Played a Crit-Fish Paladin/Fighter with Eleven Accuracy once. The ONLY reason it worked as well as it did was thanks to a pearl of power and a +1 Amulet of the Devout so I could sacrifice a channel divinity for another spell slot. With both of those the build was super fun to play and fealt super strong.
I do have one build that goes heavily into champion for crits, but not for damage purposes. It's using the two birds sling with the profane soul bloodhunter feature that gives you a 10 ft no save frighten effect around your target on crits, as well as the crusher feat to give allies advantage on crits and reposition enemies a bit to get more value out of the sling/fear aura. Reminds me a lot of the interesting on crit effects they had in Starfinder, and the only way I found to get some kind of utility out of going heavily into crit fishing. The damage potential just isn't there otherwise.
For anyone interested in trying it out it's half-drow hexblade 2/profane soul 3/champion 15. Invocations are devil's sight and eldritch mind, ASIs are crusher, elven archery, sharpshooter, resilient con if you started warlock and max out your charisma. It benefits a lot if your DM lets you use the new racial spell standard of being able to cast them with your spell slots, since it gets level 2 warlock slots but no level 2 spells. It uses darkness+devil's sight but you're at extreme range most of the time so it should be less annoying for your party hopefully, and you have fairy fire as a backup options when that doesn't work. Make active use of the spell scroll scribing rules to make shield scrolls you can tape to your arm or to avoid wasting slots on utility spells.
If I were to redesign the Champion, it would probably be something scaling the crits and doubling the value of every feature
- LVL 3: Improved Critical: 19-20 Range, Improves to 18-20 at 7th, 17-20 at 10th, 16-20 at 15th, and 15-20 at 18th.
- LVL 3: Additional Fighting Style.
- LVL 7: Remarkable Athlete.
- LVL 7: Adaptive Style; You can now exchange either of your Fighting Styles after a Short or Long Rest.
- LVL 10: Survivor ~ No longer requires Half HP; Restores Half Fighter Level + Con Modifier. Additionally, You now Recover a use of Indomitable after a Short Rest.
- LVL 15: Mastery of Arms; You may now exchange any of your fighting styles when initiative is rolled.
- LVL 18: Improved Survivor ~ HP Restoration occurs even if the fighter is at 0 HP; And Recover a use of Indomitable when Initiative is Rolled.
15-20 Crit Range is ridiculous, yes. But 9th level spells are far crazier.
If you've picked a subclass that lacks any spellcasting potential, and flavors itself around RAW physical power, enemies should be scared of making eye contact with you
The game is over at this point, let the Champion Fighter kick some ass in the one area they've focused.
Compared to other fighters, the Crit Range scaling helps them keep up damage, and the fighting style being moved up helps them at low level when the 19-20 Range is miniscule.
_ ____________ _
For the Record on Damage per attack increases the Subclass Gets...using a Greatsword at each level.
- W/O Advantage ~ 3: +0.35, 7: +0.7, 10: +1.05, 15: +1.4, 18: +1.75
- With Advantage ~ 3: +0.65, 7: +1.26, 10: +1.84, 15: +2.38, 18: +2.89
These increases on crit range are not going to break the game. But they do make it more rewarding to synergize (as well as more interesting for optimizers, since now every breakpoint of Champion is considered for multiclassing crit-builds).
I also considered making it read "Any attack roll with an outcome higher than 20 qualifies as a Critical Hit" since that would be an immediate bump to make it compete with other subclasses, but figured that would make it too appealing for multiclassed Paladins and Rogues - Even though doing this would require not benefitting as much from Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter.
There's nothing flashy like other subclasses, but the Champion is always fighting at their best persisting through raw physical prowess and mastery of basics honed to deadly precision.
Kobold: Champion fighter sucks!
Meanwhile one of my players using a minmaxed level 20 Champion with magic items: "That's... 600 damage."
Yeah. I mean it's unlikely they'll get rid of the champion but it does kind of need to go. Fold the features into the fighter class and call it a day
I think the problem hear is that grits are supposed to be big bursts of damage, but they end up not doing that very well most of the time. If we swapped the current critical hit system with one that straight up multiplies the damage based on the weapon your wielding then it would be much better.
DND used to deal 2X, 3X, and even 4X total damage on Crit depending on your weapon. Crits are nerfed in 5e because new players whine when th get owned by one. Also looks like crits on players will be nerfed in the latest DND iteration.
The thing they don’t tell you is that champion is the perfect subclass when your group of adult friends has a single parent whose 8-year-old kid wants to play but keeps wandering off.
Been playing with a DM that lets martials pick two subclasses to make them a bit stronger. You get the subclass you want to play plus whatever the DM considered the default subclass. I played a rune knight fighter and so got the champion features as well. And honestly it's like I'm just playing rune knight. Gone from level 4 to 6 over the course of like three months and I've yet to use a champion features.
Whenever you have advantage on an attack roll using Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma, you can reroll one of the dice once.
So Hexblade and Sheleighleigh apply
Hmm magic initiate Druid on a elven champion?
Brute fighter is the better one and im tired to pretend its not
Hey, I wanted to bring this up in case you had a take on it. When Tasha's came out, there was the response of "Oh hey, thrown weapon fighters finally work!" But then all I saw people proposing was Dart throwers with sharpshooter, which is like "Hey what if we could do a Crossbow expert, only worse?" I was looking for another, more interesting way to run a thrown weapon fighter. Here's what I came up with.
What's unique about thrown weapon fighters is that their weapon can change each time they attack, because they're throwing them. This is generally irrelevant, but hey, isn't it interesting that we suddenly have three feats that all activate once per turn, have no saving throw and depend on the kind of damage done? What I'm proposing isn't the most optimal damage build but will create interesting choices, and so is actually pretty fun to play.
There are a lot of crossbow expert battle master fighters, and all their fun maneuvers like menacing attack, pushing attack, etc. are all useful battlefield control abilities. Add to that, though, the Crusher and Slasher feats. Crusher especially is interesting, as it lets you push your enemy 5ft in any direction when you hit. It can combine with Pushing Attack to move the enemy 20 ft, but you can move 5ft in a different direction, as well. It gives you a lot of freedom as to which direction you can move them. You can do other fun things like push them 5ft away while using Menacing Attack so they can't close that 5ft distance on their turn, or combine a Pushing Attack with Slasher to push them 15 ft and reduce their speed 10ft.
So what I'm picturing is a fighter with a large inventory of handaxes, light hammers, javelins and spears. This fighter's a skirmisher type who fights at close-to-medium range. He'll often do something like attempting a tripping attack to knock an enemy prone, and if successful, can quickly close the distance and wail on his enemy with advantage, possibly using the opportunity for an action surge. If there are two enemies close together, he can use a handaxe pushing attack to move one back, and then a light hammer attack to bring the other one forward and take them on one-at-a-time. He can also do interesting thing with terrain effects like Spirit Guardians, where he can push an enemy out of the area and then bring them back in with a pushing attack/Crusher combo throwing a light hammer. Spirit Guardians is a 15 foot radius, so if your cleric is engaged with an enemy, and you push them 15 feet back and then stagger them forward 5 feet, they should leave the area and come back in.
Because Thrown Weapon Fighting and Dueling both apply to thrown weapons (assuming you have no weapon in your off-hand), you're getting +4 to each attack if you take the Fighting Initiate feat to gain both fighting styles. This isn't much -- especially since your weapons have such pitiful base damage -- but it's enough that you're not falling too far behind in damage. Your main objective is not to maximize damage but to exert as much control on the engagement as possible. The Piercer feat is an option for later ASIs but not as useful, as it's mostly focused on getting the most out of your damage die, and your spear's only a d6. If you use a maneuver that adds your Superiority die to its damage, though, you can reroll that die instead. Depending on how RAW your DM goes, you could theoretically add another d8/d10/d12 (whatever your superiority die is) on a crit with the Piercer feat as well. Still, because that feat doesn't affect the battlefield, and is just about adding damage, it's the least interesting of the three feats.
Anyway, I was looking for a fun way you could make Thrown Weapon Fighter into something better than just a short range, lower damage Crossbow Expert, and I think this fighter works. I'm not as solid at optimizing as you are, I'm curious what you thought of thrown weapons.
I have a question, empowered metamagic vs heightened metamagic, which one is more reliable damage wise? Empower spell allows you to reroll a number of dice up to equal to charisma modifier, but heightened spell forces a disadvantage to the spell's saving throw, greatly reducing the chance monsters succeed saving throws which would cause the spell to do half damage.
What scenarios would make empower and heightened metamagic more beneficial than the other in a damage standpoint? Will the extra dice rolls benefit more on overall damage in an encounter or will the reduced chance of half damage from a successful save give a better overall damage.
Nice, a fighter video!
Good homebrew 🐊, i like the🔥🐊
Well, it was early 5e, so the writers were still throwing things at the wall to see what would stick.
But kobold! Champion Fighters are a _great_ (sub)class for NPC Fighters!
What I've done for my homebrew is give Champion bonus Damage; bonuses to Saving Throws, a bit of extra Hit bonus as well as buffing Survivor by removing the restriction of half Health and increasing how much it restores.
Additionally, I give the Champion subclass bonus Hit Points similar to Draconic Bloodline.
Might not be perfect but it's something.
look on the bright side:
at least it isn't Truenamer.
So like, the Champion Fighter does have a point and it's a point that is different from most other classes... It occupies this idea of being the simplest possible class, with very few moving parts. This is important; some people really like the idea of being essentially a normal guy up against insurmountable odds, some people want a class they don't have to think about deeply so they can focus on other parts of the game, and some people are new and want to learn the system without having to learn a class as well. And it's how D&D traditionally played, so it's important for older fans, too.
But... The issue is that it is bad even when thinking of it like this
The champion's early bonus is a crit chance, which is essentially nothing. And the few abilities it does have are also not as 'invisible' as they could be. If the idea here is to be an 'invisible' subclass that is as simple as possible, it's not doing a good job at that. Why doesn't it just GET class skills, instead of this half-skill thing? Why does it get crits, instead of just a bonus to attack and damage? Why doesn't it get flat bonuses to AC or HP? A subclass with no 'real' abilities fulfils a very important role and a specific fantasy, but this just isn't doing that
The concept is also a little bit flawed in this edition, which stripped back magic items from the previous editions. The reasons generic fighters could compete was because you would eventually find magic items, and those gave you options. Fighters typically had good strength and endurance without any magical bonuses, and could use a variety of weapons. This let them be a bit more dynamic and risky when using those items they found, and let them carry more of them, and utilize more of them. But like... You don't get all that many magic items in this edition, and what you get is pretty tightly limited. The game is very heavily built around these class abilities... So what part of the game are you focusing on, if you have chosen to pick the subclass that allows you to ignore those mechanics entirely?
I have played the equivalent of a champion fighter in a Pathfinder game. I picked all passive abilities and things like Quick Draw. I trained most of my physical stats to around 18. And I focused on magic items, roleplay, and plans made in the world. I could swap between any role as I needed, to target my opponent's weaknesses. And in battle, I was someone who had HP and AC something like twice as high as some others. Champion Fighter does not allow me to do anything even close to that - There's no magic items to commission, I'm not becoming more durable (and thus able to take greater risks) until level 18, and I'm not even particularly skillful.
My change would be that most modifiers also crit, so a fighter doing 2d6+4 would do 4d6+8 on a critical, simular to what it was in 3.5
My idea: Alongside increased crit ranges, Champions should get soft crits. Basically auto hits that do not get the double damage dice.
Improved Critical
Beginning when you choose this archetype at 3rd level, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20 and automatically hit on a roll of 18.
Superior Critical
Starting at 7th level, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 18-20 and automatically hit on a roll of 16 or 17.
Perfected Critical
At 18th level, you attain the pinnacle of martial prowess. Your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 17-20 and automatically hit on a roll of 14-16. If your weapon attack scores a critical hit on a roll of 20, roll all of the attack's damage dice four times instead of twice.
I rewrote the Champion Fighter for these exact reasons. I kept it new player friendly in that most of it is fairly passive, but tried to focus on the Champion as more of a gladiator type.
First, I changed Improved Critical to include expanding to 18-20 at level 7, and 17-20 at level 16. (Albeit, most of my campaigns only go to about level 10-12)
Second, I added another level 3 feature called Showmanship. Also at 3rd level, you gain proficiency in the Performance skill if you do not already have it. If you already have proficiency in Performance, instead gain proficiency in any other Charisma based skill with which you don’t already have proficiency. In addition, you may use your Bonus Action to boast after landing a critical hit weapon attack on an enemy. By using this feature, grant yourself temporary HP equal to your fighter level + your Performance modifier. This feature may be used a number of times equal to your PB, and all expended uses are regained after a long rest. (This gives them something more to do with their BA and provides sustainability for the lone warrior concept)
Remarkable Athlete remains unchanged as I feel the expanded crit range from my earlier change is adequate.
Additional Fighting Style can be particularly useful on its own as well, so no changes.
I reworked Superior Critical to be as follows: Starting at 15th level, when your weapon attacks score a critical hit against a creature no more than one size larger than you, the target must make a Strength saving throw, DC 8+PB+Str modifier or be knocked prone. Once a creature has been knocked prone in this way, it has advantage on all future saving throws against this feature for the next 24 hours. (The time limit is in case of recurring enemies, and the advantage is to reflect the creature becoming more familiar with the technique. I considered immunity after the first, but thought advantage best for considering a level 15 ability. Casters can warp reality extensively by this point, after all. The size limit is in case someone has cast Enlarge/Reduce on you or some similar effect.)
I considered changing Survivor to remove the half-HP restriction, but instead just added advantage on Death saving throws, and rolling a 19 on a Death saving throw is treated the same as rolling a 20. Furthermore, at level 20, the feature expands to let you add your Constitution modifier to Death saving throws, making you nigh impossible to just drop dead without a finishing blow since the PCs at that point are comparable to lesser gods.
All in all, it makes the Champion far more viable while keeping devastating perks outside of the range of most multi-class considerations.
A minor comment: why even bother making a svae for the level 15 ability? It is a champion, after all, and it only triggers on crits, which is something the player has absolutely zero control over. The fact that you felt the need to, in tio of that, grant enemies advantage on following turns befuddles me. Even totem barbs can just use a bonus action and force a save to knock enemies prone. I think fighters should be absolutely opposite in the field of battle, melee fighters doubly so. For that reason, let them have ridiculous or even OP abilities. They are still super vulnerable, have no range and no magic.
@@limaTheNoob a valid point. The reason is mostly because I haven't had anyone get to that level to test it and didn't want to offer them excessive power only to take it away. I figured I could always improve it without complaint.
@@StupidButCunning well, you're not wrong. Buffing is always easier than nerfing. That is a valid approach.
Does the dragon's bank heist come in hardcover? I don't do pdf or online things lol.
0:41 Oh no, I don't want to face the 4 flight race Forcecage wizards.
Better homebrew: fold battle master & champion into the base fighter class.
I agree wholeheartedly. The Champion and Battlemaster subclasses just in general feel like they should be basic Fighter features.
how much better would it be if they got a feature that gave them crunchy crits?
elven accuracy works when you use hex blade or battle smith (use int or chr for attack rolls at all times, but i prefer stacking it with mounted combatant for constant advantage)
I do have a niche build that has it as a dip. It is not meant to be powerful, but a Beast Barbarian reckless attacking with TWF using handaxes with the Slasher feat and a Champion dip has (at level 8) ~57% chance to crit on a given round to proc the Slasher debuff (not counting opportunity attacks).
As a Champion with the Fisher background, I see this as a complete win.
That's actually really clever. 🤣
iirc Brute Fighter UA was supposed to be a replacement/update for Champion, but people who did the survey didn't realize that and just thought it powercreeped Champion lmao
The features you get from the Champion subclass should instead be default class features for the Fighter, and THEN you pick a Fighter subclass. Change my mind :P
An idea I had but never had the time to run the numbers on would be to give it a few extra ribbon features alongside the original improved critical levels and just add improved critical to all the other features so you end up with a critical hit on a 15+ by level 18. Probably still too weak without some magic weapon adding a bunch of damage dice.
DMs: if you have a player who wants to play champion, do two things.
1.) Encourage them not to, because it sucks and they will hate it.
2.) If they do it anyway, build a few encounters where the crit fishing strategy is important. Maybe crazy high AC where crits and AOE are the only way to hit?
I must have been miss remembering how crits worked.
I thought that it only added 1 damage dice (auto maxed) to the roll. So that the trade off between a 2d6 weapon vs a 1d12 , was while they both maxed at 12 damage the 2d6 always dealt a minimum of 2 damage, with an average of 7 rather than a 6.5, but the 1d12 had the higher crit damage, doing up to 24, while the 2d6 could only manage 18. Basically making the choice between consistent damage vs maximum damage.
But if you get the whole weapons damage dice to reroll, then there's really no reason to use weapons that only use one dice over one that has a comparable output, but use 2 dice, unless that weapon has an attribute to exploit (like damage type, or reach, or something) that the other weapon doesn't.
I probably should've figured something was wrong with how I thought crits worked when I knew spells could get crits, with 6 or more damage dice, and no one said spell crits were wimpy.
the math is correct and in fact this class needs advantage for its attacks, but you forgot many important things, firstly speaking of weapons for the melee warrior we should consider him using a Flame Tongue and for those who are going to use elven precision weapons of fire are the best way, we also have consumables like Potion of Growth, and hex if he has the magic initiate talent, and speaking of feats, I believe that Great Weapon Master makes all the difference here because it makes the critical value much higher, if you still want to put a half orc in the middle of all this would be fine.
Why use the Beta Grate-sword (slashing) when you could be using the Chad Maul (bludgeoning) instead?
That's not very optimal of you PT.
So what's your thoughts on grappler builds?
Casting conjure animals and making them grapple is my fav grappler build.
You know, I wonder how much better this subclass would be if it got brutal Criticals, but not the barbarian's, the house rule that says that the additional damage dice of a crit should be taken as having rolled max damage.
Now, I'm not sure if this would make it REALLY more powerful, but at the very least it would make it feel more powerful.
Actually, the fighter and barbarian could probably use it in their base kit, I feel like those two really deserve some love.
To be fair, Survivor, assuming a character well built, is a good well...survivability option. 10 hp of damage mitigation per turn, a bit more if we consider things like heavy armor master and adamantine armor.
Sure, at this level we seeing lots of creatures dealing 30-50 damage per hit, but we're also seeing lots of smaller creatures or smaller number attacks, that often miss, or are completely negated between Survivor and Heavy Armor Master. It does depends on the encounter, but assuming the player is trying its best with this class, it can be useful. Not top tier by far, but not entirely garbage.
As for the crit stuff, it is weak by itself, but a quick multiclass into hexblade allows elven accuracy on greatsword, increasing its overall value (even more if you find reliable ways to always get advantage). Assuming a hex warrior champion with any magic great sword that increases its dice (there's a few examples, flametongue being the main one), and a reliable source of advantage (darkness with exploits so you party doesnt complain, greater invisibility buff, etc...), you'll have a martial with more overall damage and equal survivability of a barbarian (non-zealot). Again, not much, but far from ultimate garbage (as most barbarians).
At 2:35, where does the 8.33 come from? Wouldn't the average damage for 2d6 be 7?
"But Kobald! You think everything in 5E sucks!"
Rouge player: this is a video about fighter. Why did I get slapped in the face.
I've been working on a potentinal Champion Fighter let me know what you think
3 Improved Critical you Crit on 19 - 20 ( this feature will replace improved criticals for base fighters) & Remarkable Athlete ( You gain Proficiency in 2 skills only limited in Str and Dex Skills and expertise in 1 )
7 Critical Damage does triple Damage
10 Improved Critical 17 - 20 ( this feature will replace improved criticals for base fighters)
15 Superior Critical Strike times 4 Critical Damage
18 Vorpal Strike When you roll a critical strike 17 - 19 you deal an additional 6d8 Damage. When you roll a Natural 20 you Decapitate the Enemy. Enemies that can survive without a head, creatures huge or larger, or with Legendary Resistance instead is dealt 12D8 Damage. If you wield a Vorpal Sword ( Legendary Sword )This feature activates on a 19 to 20.
That's my general ideal fix
Also with base fighters I would give them improved critical at 9, and 13
Are you considering the damage bonuses from great weapon master or sharpshooter because most champion fighter builds use either one of those feats since it bumps DPR significantly since the minus to hit is largely negated through advantage and the expanded crit range
Pretty much all fighters go gwm or ss. If you get a 18-20 on the dice roll you're gonna hit. I'd rather actually get subclass features.
@@Synetik Fair I don't play champion personally I was just questioning the damage math since the difference between + 5 for your damage mod per hit and + 15 is a fairly large average DPR shift when your crit range is 15-25.75% of your attacks and you have 8-9 attacks to work with
you could use a feature from volos and give the champion an extra 2d6 damage to every hit if the champion is over 50% health. It's might not be too flavorful or interesting but it's more useful than just a 5% crit increase especially if you move the survivor feature up to earlier levels.
Half orc feature makes it a little more fun, at least. =D
As someone who played champion for there first character I have sentimental feelings to it but that aside it does need work things that I would do to make this better one through leveling up instead of it being at first 20 or 19 for for critical hit it’ll be 20,19,18 this will be your level three feature then as we move on through leveling up somewhere you’d be able to add your constitution modifier plus your strength modifier or Dexterity modifier to the damage it’s not much extra damage but it’s something at this level you would also gain another feature you would get expertise in martial and simple weapons you’re a champion you missing shouldn’t really be a thing that much then when you hit the level where you would normally be able to critical hit on an 18 instead now you can critical hit on 17,16 and finally for the Kapstone ability we would remove the half your your hit points limitation like you said you’re level 18 it’s not needed does it fix the subclass no spell casters are still stronger but I think it’s a better version than what we got and you can get more out of it this way. PS also for people who are looking to use the subclass how it is in the players handbook that version use a maul it does the same amount of damage as the great sword but because it’s a Bludgeoning damage less stuff resists or immune to it at lower levels😉
Give the fighter a +2 to hit with all weapons instead of another fighting style, instead of the jumping thing give them the capstone as proficiency + con while below 1/2 HP, as a capstone the champion recovers 1 use of action surge when they score a critical hit and they may use that action surge this turn if they haven't already used it.
(watched sponsor segment)
Nooo, Gator! Get out of that water! There's adventurers near by that are anywhere from level 5 to level 15, and I don't think any of them are Champion Fighters!!
This is why you use a Elven Curved Blade when you use Elven Accuracy. Think the sword the Dwarf King has in the Hobbit movies. It is a two handed finesse weapon that is a D10 damage. It is finesse because hey are made of a Mithral alloy.
The real good homebrew for Champion Fighter is to run the Brute Fighter instead, and go from there.
Rogue? 2nd weakest class? That took me completely by surprise lol, is there a video on that? Because damn if I don't see rogue's consistently clean house in many campaigns with their consistent burst DPS and being masters of skill checks.
The video on the OneDND Rogue changes runs down why the class is considered weak in optimized circles
This might be good with something like polearm Master so you can attack more
No mention about pairing with crusher/slasher? Viability critiques always focus on damage, damage damage, but I feel rarely consider utility. A 3lvl dip into fighter can give a martial a lot of utility with a fighting style, action surge, and a boost to crit chance when pairing with slasher/crusher. Giving your whole team ADV for a round or giving an enemy DIS for a whole round could be a viable use for a multiclassed champion.
What if we add the brute subclass to the championship? How "broken" will it be then? (Playable for sure but will it outshine the rest of the fighters?)
Its ok.
My first character was a sword and board human champion fighter.
By the gods it sucked, but i had fun regardless.
I give improved critical to my barbs, +1 crit range every extra cit die. They need the damage boost at higher levels. Thanks to advantage from reckless attack it's actually a pretty major boost
(total crit dpr at 5 first brutal critical, 11 at second, and 18 dpr at 3rd. still pretty mild but a huge improvement over normal brutal critical and definitely feels powerful)
Champion I feel isn't that hard to fix, remove the extra critical range, just make it so that whenever they hit, they roll a D6 and if it comes up as a 6, they double the base number of damage die of their weapon.
at a 65% chance to hit of which 5% is critical, that'd add ~.69 damage a hit or ~.98 on advantage with a D10 weapon. Which goes up to ~1.37 and ~1.97 respectively when you get the extra die from a 5 on the D6 and finally too ~2.06 & ~2.95 when it ends at 4+ on the D6. you can essentially double crit with this of course, which I think makes it at least more random where champion is usually less random/slightly more predictable. Also these numbers are assuming you do not apply the advantage to the D6 itself when you have that.
the sword at 2:17 is crooked and fills me with rage
Something I gave fighters champions is the ability to throw weapons, in addition gaining additional attack of opportunities equal to proficiency bonus per round. And as well as being able to make an attack of opportunity if an enemy attacks an ally, but only with melee weapons or thrown weapons
Can you make this video with the "crunchy crits" or "brutal critical" or whatever people call the critical homebrew rule?
The one I'm referring to is: Max damage die, then roll normal on top of
Cool dragon!
I could see using a crit fishing build if you were guaranteed items with on crit features, but who is really handing out stuff like a vorpal greatsword at an early enough level to make that a viable decision for most of your career?
I reworked champion in my games, they still had all the champion features but I added on top of it but retained the simplistic design. Champions are supposed to be the pinnacle of a warrior and the subclass features should give you that feeling while making sure it stayed a beginner friendly class.. Level 3 +1 to attack & dmg at level 15 this becomes +2 Level 7 gain an additional feat. Level 10 pick 1 of the fighting styles you learned and it improves significantly. Level 18 Regen kicks in as a reaction stance that last 1 min when you take damage instead of half hp.
Finally felt the champion was on par with the other fighter classes after these changes so I wanted to share what my fix was.
what i do with champion (and assassin rogue) is dismantle the features and give them all to base fighter at various levels. crit on 19 is given at lvl 4, remarkable athlete at lvl 6, additional fighting style at lvl 8, superior critical at lvl 11, and survivor at lvl 13
This is why my group plays with Brutal Criticals.
Max damage plus 1 damage dice plus modifiers.