Haste is suboptimal in D&D 5E
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- Опубликовано: 30 июн 2024
- Haste isn't very good. Sorry guys.
Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
0:34 Haste Reading
1:10 Important notes
2:35 Damage (Math)
6:55 Defence
8:08 Mobility
9:23 The spell as a whole
10:40 Why its a bad spell
11:15 Twinning, legendary and magic resistance arguments
12:03 Best part of Haste is Teamwork!
12:51 Salvage
Link to Tabletop builds Article:
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Link to discord and patreon:
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The bless math is slightly wrong but it doesn't change anything really.
Certain characters definitely use haste better than others as rogues make especially potent. What I do as a rogue is take my action to dodge, and use the haste action to sneak attack.
@@YourBoyNobody530 You're correct that rogue is the best target for haste, but you're still not using it to its fullest potential. A hasted rogue should be readying their main action to make an attack on someone else's turn, and then use their haste action to attack with sneak attack. This results in 2 sneak attacks in one round.
However, even in this scenario, the added DPR of bless along with its crucial saving throw bonuses still make it a superior spell despite being a first level. While hasted rogue DPR is nice, it doesn't measure up to the effect of other third level concentration spells that can straight up win encounters, not just making your rogue do more damage.
I still haven't corrected it yet, Its been a month. Sorry guys, but I actually think I will do this correction for another video. I want to redue bless video in the future and this is perfect.
I think i have been undertanding bless wrong my hall live. Are you saing that for the minute duratión we can add a d4 for each atack!? Is not only 1d4 each one for the duration of all the spell!? Really!!!?
Best use of haste=Paladin!
(ATTACKING) just haste the paladin if lv11 it's not just a extra attack but a extra (auto smite). As a wizard main, if I can only have 1 party member I'd pick the paladin.
The barbarian gets extra benefit from haste by a fixed rage damage add on along with generally having a d12 or 2d6 strike.
(DEFENSE): You remove the only notable weakness of the paladin by giving advantage to dex saves.
The plus 2 ac is meh, but still has some worth.
(MOBILITY):A hasted paladin can move up to 120ft minimum to those pesky ranged mobs that are about to pepper you the wizard next turn.
(Magic Items)Paladin with flame tongue sword hasted is insane. a extra 3d8+2 from predictable duellist FS
(LOYALTY)You forgot the greatest value of haste, you have permanently befriended a PC. Preferably the paladin followed by barbarian.
I can tell you don't main a wizard much. Haste is great depending on your other PC's. I might even take it if with just a fighter PC because they love the extra swish though it does very little mathematically, unless the fighter with a (flame tongue) et cetera.
A wizard's hit die is paper Mache unless an abjurer, you need fiends when things go south.
Wizard: "I caste haste on the boss."
GM: "You what? Well sure, he'll take that buff."
Wizard: "Ok great. I now end concentration."
GM: "I don't know what I expected..."
Hahaha this actually happened in a game I played in.
Literally King Crimson
This has to be one of the most unique ways to cast the spell, holy crap. That would definitely earn an inspiration point for my players, if any of them ever figure it out that is :P
Must keep this in mind
Just remember that it can only be cast on a willing creature. Most of your enemies don't want you casting spells on them.
Mathematically, it might not be ideal, but nothing beats the feeling my group gets when we combine Haste, Shield of Faith, Enlarge, and Bless all on our gnome bear totem barbarian with great weapon master and set her loose on some poor bad guy that had the audacity to attack us
Last session I literally said to my beast barbarian: Hey, have you heard about berserkers?..
Do you wana be one for a minute?
Actually, that totally depends on their AC to begin with. The more AC you have, the more you benefit from additional AC.
Simple example. An enemy has 50 % chance to hit you, you can survive 10 hits from them, you are expected to survive 20 attacks then. Now you get +2 AC from a spell. The enemy has 40 % chance to hit you. You can now be expected to survive 25 attacks. Great !
Now let us say an enemy has 25 % chance to hit you, you can survive 5 hits from them, that means you can survive 20 attacks, just as above. But if give this guy a + 2 AC, the chance falls to just 15 %, that means you are now expected to survive and average of 33 attacks. That increase is so much higher than the other guy.
This means, if you can stack AC boost on top of each other, each AC boost is worth more than the last.
On offense, we another way that stacking buffs help, because most buffs stack multiplicative and not additively, that is just a fancy way of saying each buff is makes the next buff even stronger. So how good is + 1d4 damage from enlarge for example? well, depends on your chance to hit, and the amount of attacks you are doing, but since you have haste and bless, those are both high, so even though it looks like a small bonus, it adds up.
I am sure it is fun to pop it on the barbarian, but it is probably more optimal to pop it on a high AC person like a fighter or Paladin, but have fun xD
@@peterrasmussen4428 A high level barbarian can reach pretty nice AC ranges too when using a shield, although that reduces their damage quite a bit. Lvl 20 barbarian with maxed out dex and con, wielding a +3 shield and Bracers of Defense gets up to 29 AC. If we want to keep going Cloak/Ring of Protection and a Defender can bring it up to 33. So with Haste the AC would be a solid 35. But yea, most games are at lower levels where barbarians can't really match the AC of their heavy armor wielding brethren.
Rune knight bear totam haste blender. With a bard in the back who cast slow
@@backonlazer791 in my dnd group my friend made a 20 ac barb at lvl 1
the best part of casting haste on the party rogue is dropping the spell as soon as combat is over. the rogue falls limp before they can rush over and loot the bodies and secretly pocket the best loot for themselves, giving everyone else time to distribute the loot fairly.
Now this, this is someone who thinks ahead.
What what about second rogue?
@@tiredofeverything2771 That's when you twincast it.
@@Frostoad ah something the sorcerer can do better than the wizard! Good taste
But a round only lasts 6 seconds so the squad will need to be fast to snatch the loot before the Rogue is back on their feet.
Table fun is optimal, I put haste in potions that require no concentration sometimes when the party has no access to it… BECAUSE ITS FUN TO GO FAST
PCs go brr.
I prefer to break down the Effects of Haste and sell those Pots for a more reasonable Price; like a "Potion of Longstriding" granting the Movement Bonus, the "Potion of Frenzy" for the Bonus Attack/Disengage. But, all of it can also be something similar but different: Pot of Frenzy can also grant you "Rage" for example. Only the Alchemist can determine what it does exactly.
I think a concentration free haste is pretty good, much better than actual haste for yourself. Your fighter can haste himself and it essentially acts like coffee, going faster for some time then crashing after.
As a potion it actually sounds really good.
1 minute guaranteed without the cost of a spell slot. That's probably even worth serious PC level 5 money. Especially if you let them drink as bonus action to encourage the use of consumables.
you mean the potion of speed? From the DMG, literally just haste non conc
I really like the nuance. “Yeah, haste on a rogue is a win.” It’s a well-ordered mind that can see complexities in a topic.
Sentinel feat next?
There is more to it, its just a lot of math but its easy to comprehend.
Haste is also pretty huge for paladins and hexblades, as it's another opportunity to *SMITE*
@@torunsmok5890 its RIDICULOUS for paladins, and worse, bards who can do it to themselves, as you can apply it to a pegasus created with Summon Greater Steed and move in and out of almost any enemy's ability to threaten you each round as long as you're fighting outdoors
@@PackTactics combo everything in this reply thread and add in Pole arm master + Alert with 2 levels of fighter (blind fighting style) while playing a bug bear. Fuck everything in a 15ft radius of your drive-by.
Just do an archer who bobs and weaves from distance with an extra attack and boosted AC vs other projectiles. Veery good for hit & run tactics.
Important note, magic items like potions that grant haste both bypasses the concentration end problems and the caster restrictions due to concentration.
It costs gold, but as far as consumable buffs go, haste disproportionately benefits from the removal of concentration.
Can still be Dispelled off of them with Dispel Magic.
@@stevelycan2962 Ok, and the Boss/BBEG uses an action/spell slot. +Counterspell the Dispel Magic
@@stevelycan2962 I would argue that it dispels the magical lethargy too
@@_NobodySpecial_
It definitely should.
I really like the spell, I think it has a lot of utility power. Haste is one of those spells that's simply fun to cast because you're actively giving someone the spotlight and you make them feel cool and awesome. I'm the type of player that balances fun and optimization. I don't always go with the meta, I like to experiment and be creative. Anyways, when it comes to optimization, there are very few reasons to cast the haste spell over other 3rd level spells. It's very situational that depends on multiple things to be considered worth casting. Also, due to its major drawback upon losing concentration, you really have to be careful when you cast this spell. I highly don't recommend casting haste before combat starts unless your party can get a surprise round or scout the location first! In the worst-case scenario, you lose initiative, you get hit, and lose concentration... THAT'LL BE DISASTROUS!
Otherwise, just get proficiency in Alchemist's Supplies or Herbalism and spend the gold to make a potion of speed. You'll get the same effect without the drawback and no concentration!
In conclusion: I'd use haste as a situational utility spell instead of my go-to spell for combat. I think this is the only spell that allows you to interact with multiple objects in one turn.
There’s a rogue subclass feature that also grants an additional object interaction (at the cost of bonus action). While it’s extremely unlikely to ever come into play, it could be pretty funny to see someone singlehanded operating one of the siege weapons with both those extra object actions.
I was using it on my sorcerer using a dragon slayer longsword against a dragon. Would use my action to cast powerful spells, bonus action quickened booming blade, then extra action attack with the sword. Would use blink so I didn't get hit often enough to make me loose concentration
@@jb123581 The thief using their bonus action to potion a downed party member, can come up pretty frequently. There's also locking or unlocking stuff in combat, either cutting off pursuers or allowing the party to move forward, then there's using the rope or other objects to set up traps or such.
@@Zeno11Salazar I was referring to attempting to singlehandedly operate siege equipment, not the subclass feature actually seeing use. I’ve got a thief myself and regularly use it.
@@jb123581 Oh cool.
This definitely changed my perspective on how powerful Haste is, and there's a lot of good arguments here, but I feel like something that wasn't talked about enough was that most of the video is comparing Cleric/Paladin spells to Wizard/Sorcerer spells. You did bring up Fey Touched and Multiclassing but that doesn't account for the fact that taking Fey Touched or dipping into Cleric may be suboptimal/impossible based on your ability scores. This also leaves out the fact that your party may already have a Cleric who is casting Bless, and/or a Paladin who is casting Shield of Faith etc. both of which are pretty common things for those classes to be doing. After all, if you already have a Cleric in the party then there's really no point in the Wizard taking Fey Touched so they can also cast Bless.
In fact, if your party DOES already have Bless and/or Shield of Faith, both of those spells can stack with and synergize with Haste by giving that extra attack a higher chance to hit, or by stacking that AC buff even higher. If your Paladin is already casting Shield of Faith on themselves and you then give that Paladin Haste, their AC can add up to 23 with the defense fighting style and some basic equipment, and of course the higher your AC is the more potent it becomes when you stack more on top of it. Plus that near unhittable Paladin is also more resistant to Dex save damage, narrowing the means by which they can be easily damaged even further, all while also increasing their damage, making for a rather potent and buffed up front liner.
I still think that you made a lot of good points and provided some good perspective on exactly how strong Haste actually is, it would have been interesting to see more time spent directly comparing it to spells that are already on the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list like Web and Fireball, rather than glossing over those and spending most of the video comparing Haste to Bless and Shield of Faith, which I feel isn't quite fair.
Yeah. I would really like to see the comparison of spells within the same classes without needing to multiclass.
I think its cool that you Can multiclass/feat to get some of these options. But I really would like to know more options of what a raw wizard has that is better than some of the meta spells that arent as good as people think. Instead of mainly comparing a wizards toolkit to a sorcerers or clerics.
Great analysis
@@AlongCameASpider if you have played on a table with 4 or 5 players at minimum you now that that analysis(From the video) is wrong. That bullshit math he does with bless giving you damage is terrible. Who gives a f*ck if the increase on your chance to hit CAN give you more damage, dude we want to see the max damage when we make it all. bless most of times is like oh "12+6 to hit" master says "hits", the cleric goes "why you don't even remember you guys have bless". Sure Bless is good but haste is just LOT better, with his logic of chance to hit improving damage, taking a +2 to str gives more damage than GWP. that's just ridiculous.
@@pontoquente1825 The math he does is DPR, the average damage done based on averages of rolls, on average with bless you'll do more damage than with haste, it just doesn't feel as good.
He literally talks about that though
"there's a difference between feeling powerful and BEING powerful" this quote is how you know you've become a true power gamer
One thing not considered here is that while bless may be more average damage than haste, haste has the potential to provide more burst damage and burst damage can end a fight in one set of lucky rolls. For example: a level 5 fighter who gets two attacks, while blessed can still only do the damage of two attacks assuming both hit. But that same fighter under the effects of haste has the potential to straight up do 50% more damage assuming all attacks hit (even though there is a smaller chance of that happening). There may not be an enemy after a round or two of 50% increased damage on your biggest damage dealing barbarian or fighter.
Also note that two handed weapons are best with haste, never do the math assuming a longsword. Finally haste allows more rolls, and if you have advantage already, then thats more advantage rolls, which allows you to fish for more critical hits. Ultimately I think haste IS a good spell, IF they removed the part about losing a turn when it's cancelled, that takes a decent (not top tier) spell, and kind of ruins it straight up.
In my current campaign, our tiefling rogue with 40 foot movement and assassinate got hasted by our bladesong wizard. They were able to kill two people in one turn. Then just massacre someone else on their next turn.
@@Max_Pendragon But hasn't that second NPC not already acted by then? And don't you only get sneak attack on one attack per turn? So your first attack could kill someone, the next would just have doubled dice and your modifier
edit: I reached the rogue part of the vid. So you use the extra Attack to SA one creature on your own turn and then with Ready Action you wait until what, they act? and then strike again and wait for your own turn to repeat this cycle?
@@zimzimph What? I don't understand what you are talking about with your edit, why would you take a ready action when you can just attack the second person with your second action? I also didn't say I was playing the tiefling, in fact the opposite.
The second NPC wouldn't have acted yet because it was still the tieflings first turn when they attacked it, You do one stab to the first guy, which is a critical sneak attack and then critical from weapon (Yes sneak attack has double damage dice too), then with your second action go to the other guy and attack him, this time using your bonus action for an offhand weapon attack, so two weapon criticals there. The last guy was on round 2 of combat so no assassinate bonus there, but that was still 3 total weapon attacks on him (attack, bonus offhand, haste attack), plus a sneak attack since he was otherwise engaged. Still a scary amount of carnage for the character.
Haste gives you an extra action, not an extra weapon attack, the action is fairly limited and only provides one weapon attack from it but still. You also don't need to throw all your attacks on the same target, you can move between attacks, even extra attacks.
I have an haste scroll, the effect last one minute so yeah. 10 TURNS TO HAVE FUN.
Also i am a samurái.
Haste is good for súper novas, i figured this out while trying to do some brain work about my first dungeon boss.
You kind of hurt your own argument there. “Haste could let a fighter do 50% more damage!”
Only if that fighter has one Extra attack. The wording on haste prohibits it from scaling well in mid or late game play. You will only ever Add +1 attack to your target’s action economy. As your fighter gains more and more extra attacks, haste becomes substantially worse, especially due to it not even allowing you to dodge with the extra action. You go from potentially +50% to 33% to 25% as your fighter levels up… further showing the infinite scalability of Bless as it provides a bonus to EVERY one of those attacks.
Haste’s most useful aspect is in the name. It is a hyper mobility tool, and it has the added benefit of being particularly good on rogues who can use the additional movement and action very effectively for Dashing, Hiding, and Disengaging as needed. But it is not an All Purpose god buff. It feels good to go fast but it really isn’t that good.
It’s suboptimal in a sense of if you are doing it for a “extra attack” it’s not super practical in those terms but if you consider everything else it gives you it’s worth the pick up in a lot of situations.
First it’s THE best item when a enemy is on the run. There are very few things that can outrun a double dash haste that is 180 feet of movement. I know there are spells but those require saving throws and it’s more optimal. But keep in mind those require saving throws that CAN fail and if you miss the enemy may get away. Unless you cast ANOTHER spell to catch up. But it’s better to haste a high str character and double dash them back towards all the party shit that takes even less saving throws.
2.Also the disengage actions is really good on characters that wanna dip in and out like rouge. They can come in for a flank and easily get out of the way of combat safely.
3rd important thing is that there are situations where certain enemies of interest of allies are over 30 feet away. Passively doubling your movement makes you basically have a fighter be anywhere on the map in combat if things take a turn and one of your allies are about to go down.
TLDR; haste is only suboptimal if you are using it for a extra attack and that’s it. But is better than the alternatives for a robust amount of situations that may happen during or after combat.
Exactly. Sure other spells do each part better or almost as good, but Haste does all three (extra attack, defense and mobility) for one casting and one concentration. If you are waiting for someone to cast Fly, Bless and Shield of Faith you are waiting for three people to cast spells and each use their concentration.
Is the extra attack nice on my Barbarian in combat? Sure. But it's him being an Orc as well so he can Dash as a Bonus action if it's towards an enemy so he can move 160' and still attack 3 times starting at level 5, means he can move to tank wherever he needs to, so long as things are on the ground. Also it means no enemy gets to flee the party, since he can go 240' and still get 2 attacks off.
The difference of one spell and one concentration vs. 3 is significant. It is a 3rd level spell but so is Fly. For Sorcerers they can Twin it as well, which admittedly costs Sorcery Points but the dpr can become as good or better than Bless depending on party composition. It is still a 3rd level vs. a 1st level but it still does so much more than just the dpr.
I agree. I feel like people forget that the best spells in DnD are the one's that are versatile.
@@theodorehunter4765 you remind me of another point, that with it taking three spells all with concentration to get something that is admittedly better than what Haste does, that's also determining three spells people need to memorize for the day. To be fair Haste and Fly are ones pretty much always good to memorize, but 1 spell/concentration vs. 3 means Haste seems worth it.
30ft normal movement,
2x speed = 60ft
Take both actions as Dash = 180ft per round.
This is if you aren't using other spells, a race like Tabaxi, or a magic item the gives speed or bonus action dash.
@@RedrumZombies if this was about my math above, as I stated it was about the Orc barbarian I play starting at or above level 5. His base speed is 40' due to being a barbarian doubled by Haste to 80', as an Orc he can use his bonus action to Dash so long as it's towards an enemy. So movement +Bonus action gives him 160' and he still has action plus Haste action for three attacks. If someone is past 160' then he can use the Haste action and now he's covered 240' and still has his action to attack twice.
There are three classes which give speed boosts (Monk, Barbarian and Rogue, the last through bonus action dash) and a couple races which have better than 30' movement and definitely those with less than 30' all benefit a great deal from having their speed doubled. True, the advantage on Dex saves is worthless on the Barbarian since s/he already has it through Danger Sense, but I still say Haste does a lot for one spell/concentration. I wouldn't memorize it necessarily if we were dungeon diving, but in big open spaces it can be very powerful.
Haste is a party-comp dependent spell. You got a barbarian willing to reckless? Throw it on em, extra hit is big-boi 1d12+str+rage in advantage, +2 makes helps with the downside of reckless, mobility let's them get in and focus on priority targets. Got an AC tank Paladin ready to Smite? Have them throw Shield of Faith on themselves and suddenly they're a smite machine no one can touch. Have a Crit-fish Vengeance Paladin with Eleven Accuracy? Congrats, your their new best friend. Got a rogue? Sneak attacks are now much more reliable, they can peel easier, and have better defenses if targeted at range. If you answered yes to any of these questions, or answered yes to multiple and are a Sorcerer (and thus can twin) you should have this spell on your back-pocket.
I completely agree. Its a situational spell with great benifit if used right
I refuse to believe that in practice haste only adds 0.07dpr to a melee fighter. It's assuming you roll average and we all know that dice swing high and low most times. Considering to hit bonus's you're most likey gonna make that attack and get 4-9 dmg extra
and if they're ancestral guardian barb it's especially good
@@carlsmagicbicep9736 You refused to believe math... what a unique level of stupidity lmao
@@DragonKingSkye Yeah because in my experience it's WAY better than just maths can explain. Math is a way of predicting not a perfect example of everything. He's right about the haste not being as good as it shows but I'm confident that 0.07dpr is a miscalculation. If you show me the working sure but i'm not convinced.
As a Fighter/Sorcerer with a Paladin bro, twining haste with only a 5% chance to drop concentration is pretty poggers
5% chance? Are you applying the "always fail on nat 1" houserule?
Because if you have +9 on Con saves, you don't need to care about concentration saves until you take at least 22 damage in one hit.
Nat ones on saves auto fail unlike checks
@@ttlovepie101 the nat 1s only apply on attack rolls, saves and checks do not auto-fail on 1s by RAW
@@ttlovepie101 get that 6e bs out of my house
Hastes effectiveness on non-rogues can also be effected by whatever additional riders a character has. Flame tongue, rage damage, GWM/SS can really start to make that extra attack have some nice value, even just an extra chance to smite can be nice (though that one is less reliable than the others.)
Twin hasting our rogue and cleric, who had holy weapon on each of them as well as enlarge, made for some fine extra damage to lay into, as well as help them get across the battlefield to engage with the enemy and keep them away from our back line without contending with significant punishment.
Still you bring up some fair criticisms and I do think that 2nd level, or 3rd level without the debuff should probably be considered as a home adjustment.
Okay but seriously: a wizard casting haste on the guy that the druid polymorphed into a giant ape is freaking awesome! Talk about going ape sh*t!
Better to cast enlarge/reduce if you're doing it to something polymorphed. Usually already large or huge, might as well make it bigger to aggro
Haste and Fly on an ally Polymorphed into a Giant Ape
@@MegaPokefan97 this is sounding more and more like a "build-your-own-Vegeta" lol
@@edwardcottontail8705 indeed, Kakkarot
@@MegaPokefan97 he is the hype!
Haste may not be a very optimal spell for combat, sure. But, there's one type of encounter where haste can absolutely save the day: a chase scene. Double movement, plus an extra action to dash if need be? You can close the gap with almost *anything* that's running from you.
As an example, I was in a game a while back where this very instance came up. The group was being targeted, and so we all set up for the night wary. My character - order of the lycan blood hunter - had a longsword of warning that woke him up as we were beset by a single vampire spawn (long story, I'm pretty sure the DM never understood how weapons of warning actually worked). The rest of the party is awakened, the spawn recognizes it's outnumbered and outmatched, and splits. Chase sequence ensues.
I use my turn to turn into hybrid form and barrel out the window after the vamp spawn as it takes its turn to try to book it. The party sorcerer uses their turn to cast haste on me. At this point, it's basically chase scene over! I catch up to the thing no problem, and use my regular action to grapple with hybrid form's advantage on strength checks. I win and manage to lock it in place for our echo knight fighter to *eviscerate* the thing.
Could we have won without haste? Probably, yeah. But that extra speed meant it was over a few extra rounds early (doubly nice since we were in a town in the middle of the night, and anyone seeing a lycanthrope, i.e. me, in the street would probably want its head on a pike).
chase scense always feel like the dm cheating to me. like
dm : "the enemy turns and runs away"
me : "i chase it"
dm : "it turns the corner"
me : "i turn the corner"
dm : "it's gone"
.
.
dms always do that, as soon as you lose lime of sight, the dm just goes *poof* the enemy vanishes.
there was even an adventure league module, we were trying to sneak up on a guy and the dm made us roll 3 times for stealth and on the third roll someone stepped on a twig and the guy we were stalking suddenly dashes off into the woods with impossible speed and we try to chase him and the DM doesn't even let us roll, just says "you tried to follow him but you got lost and turned around and ended up back here" and the ranger was like "wtf, i have tracking and i took the feat that lets me always have a perfect sense of directionl and the dm was like "nope, don't care"
.
.
meanwhile, afterward, i went online and looked at that adventure module and there was a paragraph in there it did explain that the bad guy was carrying a potion of speed, which i guess is how he escaped so quick but it mentioned nothing about making us roll multiple times and it had text in there for what to do if we successfully sneak up and capture the guy, and there was nothing in there about "magical forest that makes the players get lost and end up right back where they started with rangers tracking nullified ". it should be possible to catch the guy but that dm pretty much was determined not to let us catch this guy, .
after that, i taught my wizard misty step, haste, dimension door.
next time the dm tried to make an enemy escape, we were upstairs in a tavern and then enemy ran downstairs and i misty stepped downstairs, literally teleported next to them and caught them and the DM stared daggers at me, as if I just cheated . .
Haste can be used by a level 11 artificer to activate their spell storing item with the hasted action. Activating spell storing item makes use of the “use an object” action to replicate a spell effect which isn’t actually spell casting.
Use of the spellstoring item can’t be counterspelled either.
"This baby can hold so many mirror images in it."
-My armorer tanking specialist artificier.
It can be Counterspelled, because you are casting the spell. Any spell can be countered, regardless of who or what cast it or how it was done.
@@tomm35 spellstoring item doesn’t use casting. It works with the “use an object” action.
It can’t be counterspelled.
@@tomm35 Nope, Bob is right. You can't counterspell it RAW because counterspell works on specifically seeing the casting of the spell. "If the creature is casting a spell.."
This specifically says you activate the effect of the spell, not cast it. This is extremely precise language that was intentionally put into the SSI ability creation.
Every other item that has spells in it: ring of spell storing, staff of the magi, etc specifically says you cast a spell from its charges. The artificier SSI does not. So even Rules as intentioned you can't counterspell.
RAW- you can't counterspell.
RAI- you can't counterspell.
At your table? You can allow the spell to be countered by a counterspell if you wanted. Nothing stopping it.
@@KingSparda Sorry for bringing a comment to an old comment chain but I wanted to clarify @Tom M's point.
The Effect of Ring of spell storing has particular wording as to how it works. I'll quote the relevent points but please double check the effect of it to verify what I quote from it is true.
At the start of the third paragraph:
"While wearing this ring, you can cast any spell stored in it. The spell uses the slot level, spell save DC, spell Attack bonus, and Spellcasting ability of the original caster, but is otherwise treated as if you cast the spell."
With this section of the item effect, It clearly says that using casts from the ring counts as the user 'casting the spell' and not 'using an object'. So this item being used would still count as casting a spell for the trigger of counterspell by RAW because the item itself says so.
I guess I was lucky quite often, because in one of the campaigns I play in we had loads of encounters where all aspects of the haste spell were useful. I am playing a fighter so I might be biased here, but I can think of a dozen occasions where haste was the thing that enabled me to actually get in melee range without having to dash. Currently we are fighting loads of enemies with magic resistance and fire immunity so fireball and web would not be great alternatives and nobody in my party has access to the bless spell.
I think haste preforms much better on allies with better on-hit damage such as Paladins using divine smite
Pretty useful on people with magic weapons, too. And if you cast it on a barbarian, they can even grapple or shove with ease. Giving haste a non damaging advantage.
Love the idea of using your action to cast Haste on yourself as a wizard, then get hit and lose concentration so you've lost two actions casting the spell.
Okay you mentioned a lot of different spells which all do one part of haste’s job as well at a cheaper price, or better at the same price. The issue is that haste does all of those things and all of the examples you gave only do one. Yah my Swiss Army knife is a kinda meh knife and a kinda meh screwdriver, but it’s a better screwdriver than any other knife I have which is why it’s useful to carry around in my pocket. Multitools can’t be compared to things which only accomplish one aspect of what they do, especially in a case like this where all or most of the multi tool’s benefits can be used at once.
I do think haste is overrated but I think you reached a bit too far to make your point and kinda ended up diluting the argument.
The issue with Swiss Army knives is that they're very meh at their jobs, which is offset by the fact that they're small and cheap. I want my multitools to be cheaper than my specific tools; that way I can use the multitool in most situations when I only need a little assistance, but I have access to the stronger tools if necessary.
The issue with Haste is that it's a 3rd level spell that isn't modal, so you have to use every piece of it at once. This is akin to opening every item on your Swiss Army knife whenever you use it while also paying $50 each time. It would be a whole lot cheaper to just buy a screwdriver, a knife, and a bottle opener and keep all three nearby rather than being forced to use all three at once. There's also the fact that Haste gains zero benefit from being cast at higher levels, whereas the other spells do.
In short, Haste as a multitool is even worse because you're using a very powerful resource for three separate benefits that you won't always want together that also comes with a significant downside should your concentration end.
@@abderianagelast7868 On a wizard ill give you it not being the best, but on other classes the spell list is smaller and thus the "compactness" matters. Also on the topic of "its like pulling out every tool at once" a huge thing with haste is that you CAN do that, in dnd if the tool is concentration you can only use one at a time so if youd wanna use more, haste is the only way.
He addresses this at around ten minutes. Why would you ever need a Swiss army knife that can be a mediocre knife or a screwdriver when it can never be both things at once? The multitool will probably only ever give you the benefits of 1 tool at a time, meaning you are always better off using something that is both cheaper and more specialized.
@@dumbwaki5877 Okay but that fundamentally doesn't apply here because it literally does give you all at once. The actual argument you could make against my point is that you probably only ever NEED one of those tools at a time, but thats kinda down to your DM's style and what they tend to throw at you.
@@Meichrob7 You know what would really help your argument, if there were a class that could cast it twice and with most sub classes had a pretty high opportunity cost for every spell they chose and had a pretty small number of decent buff spells. That way one person could use one aspect of the spell and the other person could use the other.
Be a sorc, cast it on the rogue for double sneak attack and the cleric for survivability and mobility, profit. It's pretty risky but pretty fun.
its funny that when calculating dpr between bless and haste, you did a build with a +3 mod and d4 damage die for haste vs a +4 mod with a d8 damage die for bless, and bless came out better, wow, who could have seen that coming?
after watching a few of his videos recently, ive got to say, not sure why anyone listens to him lol. feel like he just makes a bunch of bad faith arguments all the time like this
The mod difference comes from how they spent the 4th level ASI
The weapon is a good combo as you can apply sharpshooter up to 3 times instead of 2
Actually he gave haste a better build, it had a sharpshooter which adds +10 to the damage, but sacrifices the asi and higher weapon damage. Without bless and haste the character that had haste was a higher damage character. Quite the opposite to your point
@@Johnrobertx If you try to deal the plus 10 damage, you get a -5 penalty to hit, which drastically reduces the odds of the attack landing. Adding sharpshooter is bad faith, as the math *only helps* pack tactics point.
@@siege1289 it’s been a long time since I posted this comment so I had to review, however given the chance to hit he gave sharpshooter increases the overall damage even with the -5 to hit. This is why I use sharpshooter on all my damage builds. It does not always do this but in the example he gave it does do so.
Pro argument: * It is fun! * And I used it to great effect on an armorer artificer: The armorer was able to run around and impose disadvantage on all the opponents attacks, with an AC of 25 or so not minding the AoOs.
I also like it on a bladesinger as the AC bonus makes him very hard to hit. Certainly not optimal there, but viable & fun ;-)
I think it’s great on Artificer
Use it on my bladesinger/bloodhunter. Absolute monster in combat for single target dps and once I get higher levels, I'll be adding my int to my con saves which already have advantage
it does almost weight of 2 1st level slots in terms of raw numbers and at the same time it adds it's own extra utility, which is close to a third level slot, the mobility does give it's own action to disengage and I find that somewhat notable. it pairs rather well with a paladin, giving them the ability to get picks on more fragile back liners and safely return to position and get and extra smite when that is unnecessary. The smites raw value is enough that an additional smite per turn can be worthwhile provided you play with the kind of dm where you would want to expend such resources.
I would like to say that it should either be without the massive downside or add some kind of additional damage on top of the effect.
*(casts Haste on the DM.)*
Haste is one of those spells that isn't actually as easy to quantify in pure power. yes, you can calculate the dpr vs a bless spell, but it doesn't get the whole picture across.
it's Shield of Faith entirely (but without the oft forgotten requisite of the platinum rings), it's (on a 30' move speed creature) triple Longstrider, though for less duration, it's pseudo dodge (advantage on dex saves), so it's already a few spells in one, but it's an extra action, which is actually huge, no matter the dpr.
being able to take an extra action, even if it's limited on what you can do, is always going to be powerful, just for the sheer power of the action economy, that the side who takes more turns tends to come out on top.
if you were a fighter with action surge, but got to use it only on certain things, but at will for a minute, everyone would be saying it's busted as heck, but that's what this is, plus other elements.
it's also worth pointing out that getting to cast basically 3 spells in one (shield of faith, longstrider, and whatever you'd classify the extra action being) is worth it for the action economy alone.
it means that a grave cleric could make a weapon attack (haste action), Spiritual Weapon attack, and then lob out a Path To The Grave CD for the paladin to go ham with.
someone who's on fire can spend their action extinguishing the flames and still attack that turn.
someone can freely move around the battlefield with the "free" disengage action and still do their turn, such as dropping a 3rd level cure wounds on a downed party member, instead of taking potentially 5 AoOs and dropping in the process.
with the double move speed, that's an action not spent dashing to reach a foe 60 feet away, or even 120, with the only downside to 60-120 being not having an extra attack from haste, while you'd otherwise be 2+ rounds away, particularly if you have a penalty for not attacking that round (like a barbarian).
someone who's not a rogue could hide for "free" and pop out for advantage on the attack, or remain hidden to basically get a better version of the dodge action if they succeed (and then get advantage next turn anyway)
it also makes someone an instant pseudo-rogue. a free action to dash, disengage, or hide (or other things) sounds a lot like cunning action.
sure, it might not have numerical advantage, but that doesn't mean it's suboptimal, because fights aren't always damage-centric. if someone needs to do a use an object action to shatter the mcguffin of anti-bad guy plot, or there are environmental things to interact with, or there are just mobility issues, or any one of a dozen other things that aren't just pure damage focused, Haste is a god-tier spell.
Taking potions that your alchemist has made and still be able to make 3 weapon attacks and use second wind all in the same turn is BUSTED, at level 11 and with some resistances from rune knight I can say haste is one of the most fun and powerfull spells. Also having 24 Ac with defensive style+heavy armor+Alchemist reforge+ shield+haste is godly.
Not to mention you become a great skirmisher. You can run 30 ft, attack, bonus action, disengage, and then run 30 ft away. On a monk this is even better. I have a sorc monk that could make 1 weapon attack, a quicken booming blade attack, disengage, and move 40 feet away.
@@007ohboyAgonizing Blast >>>
I agree! Definitely removing concentration. Makes it feel buff and can give it to more characters. But minute ends you gotta worry about that last round
You should also be able to upcast it to affect multiple targets. Turn your whole team into a bunch of Barry Allens
@@CrowePerch agreed! Not sure if I should make it every 2 lvls or 1 lvl though. A 5th lvl slot would give you 3 Barry Allen's and that seems way to strong since it's not concentration. Thoughts?
@@airdragon11studios I’d be ok with one target per level personally. There’s a lot of more powerful spells at 5th level anyway, like bigbys hand or telekinesis
@@CrowePerch fair enough. Definitely will add those on and see how it feels. Thanks for replies!
@@CrowePerch I wouldn't say those are more powerful than double speed and an extra attack for your fighter, paladin, and rogue....
Haste works really well on a higher level artificer, specifically Artilleriest, 11th level minimum. They now have the Spell Storing Item, which is specified in errata that activating it is the "Use an Object" action. Now the high AC artificer has more AC and can equivalently cast 2 spells on their turn, which is actually a good dpr buff. Also artificers have con save proficiency and don't get some of these other spells. I've used it on a few artificers, and it has really helped take down a boss.
Works even better on an Armorer (guardian). You are giving disadvantage to 3 enemies, getting in the fight faster, you can fly really fast (winged boots), have a high AC and (as mentioned) have Con proficiency, meaning you might not even need the mind sharpener. Essentially, in conjunction with the things you previously mentioned such as lack of dps spell alternatives, you use all three listed benefits and don't suffer from any of the drawbacks mentioned in the video. I play an armorer who regularly uses haste on herself, and I have lost concentration only once over the course of a year of playing. It was due to _dispel magic_, so I lost a turn, and the enemy lost a turn. If the only way to remove haste is to kill me or trade queens, I'd say I'm pretty good. Oh and did I mention 60 ft fly speed, and an AC of 26?
The solution is simple. Have a Cleric and a Sorcerer in one party. Bless the party, double cast haste, look for cover.
PS Haste on a crossbow expert bloodhunter with hand crossbow is scarier than haste on a barbarian. Strongly recommend
I would really have to disagree with your "You lose a turn after it ends", from how I see Haste, the name tells it all, you use Haste hastely (ha ha), it's a burst damage spell. My Blood Hunter/Hexblade uses a Musket in battle, when given haste against a bigger enemy, who she has "prepared" a bit (Hexblade's curse + Crimson Rite + Hex spell), she deals another d12+2d6+10 damage each turn (unless she rolls really bad), which is usually enough end the fight before the spell runs-out. To sum it up, I see Haste's turn loss as a weakness that isn't meant to affect the player, as it should provide the party (especially when Twinned on 2 good damage-dealers) with enough DPR that they finish the fight before it runs out.
If a fight lasts longer then a minute something has gone horribly horribly wrong
The issue with the spell ending is when the caster's concentration on Haste is broken generally
@ichigo I would argue that there is better burst than an average of 21.5 dmg (assuming you hit 100% of the time) per round against a single target though. Fireball will give you more damage (assuming 100% saving throw failure) results against several targets in 1 round. Conjure Animals will likely give you more burst against a single target, as you get 8 attacks immediately (assuming CR 1/4th) even if each individual attack’s damage will likely be lower.
@@cubicengineering4715 Most spellcasters I know get Proficiency in CON saves (either in-built or through other means) and an Amulet of Health to get their CON high enough for most saves.
@@TronHammer Of course there are better ways to get high damage, probably the best target for Haste is either the Brute Fighter from UA, or a Barbarian, guys that deal a lot of damage in a single hit, so giving them an additional attack means a lot, my party's Barbarian easily deals 30+ DMG with a single hit, even when he doesn't roll that well.
The best use case for Haste: If you get charmed/mind controlled, you cast it on the bad guy. That way when you lose concentration or break out of the charm, you give your whole team a free turn on the BBEG..
Not a bad idea! I like it but the BBEG might not be willing to take the haste.
@@PackTactics doesn't charm make the creature willing?
@@juanpauloarcillas7600 No. Charmed or not, the creature can say yes or no.
That's completely meta gaming though.
This can fool a new dm
In Pathfinder 1e, haste is a buff for the whole party with no extra downsides. If someone is coming from PF, it's totally understandable why they would pick this spell despite it being way worse in this system.
I'm currently in a Kingmaker campaign with a bunch of players who are mostly 5e players, every new spell level I tell them what my spells do and they just go HOLY SHIT THAT'S SO MUCH BETTER THAN 5E!
When I told them I could haste the entire party with no downside, no concentration, and have it last for more rounds than a combat will ever reasonably last for, they were over the moon. Made myself a wand of haste.
Everybody harps on the fact that the Phantom Steed is killed in one hit, they always seem to miss the fact that once it's been hit it fades away slowly over the course of one minute. So even after it's been hit you still have it for up to 10 rounds of combat which is pretty much always more than enough to finish the fight.
When the spell ends it fades over a minute. The steed still has health and dies when reduced to zero health. That is separate from the spell ending. The spell ends if the stead takes damage, it has the statistics for a riding horse. But a riding horse has 13 health and the spell doesn’t have any text that would say anything else but the usual happens if the riding horse is reduced to zero hp before the spell ends, or before the stead disappears a minute after the spell ends
@@Mr_Maiq_The_Liar That’s fair. I wasn’t really thinking of “killed in one hit” in terms of “the low HP means it’s unlikely to survive more than one hit” but rather the spell’s “damage = gone” line. A lot of people act like that line means it could step on a rock the wrong way and instantly poof out of existence, and those are the people my comment was aimed at.
But even from the perspective of “not likely to survive more than one hit” that doesn’t mean it’s guaranteed to go out in one. It becomes progressively less likely to survive one hit as you level but even a claw attack from an Ancient Red Dragon has a tiny chance to snake eyes and not kill the Steed (2d6+10). And even if it is just one, any attacks that go toward getting rid of a phantom steed are attacks that aren’t hitting the party. So even if the enemy beat you in initiative and took out your steed before you got to take advantage of its mobility boost you still got value out of it. The only situation where you won’t get any value out of it is if it gets caught in a big AOE before your first turn. And at that point, oh well, it was free and you loose nothing.
@@ArtGuyCharlie put this way. Haste has a 1/10 chance to turn a hit into a miss, and phantom steed has about a 1/30-36 chance of surviving one hit, which if it’s an AOE against you, doesn’t even subtract from the action economy against you it just adds to the conditions inflicted upon you
Haste runs the risk of incapacitating if the spell ends but phantom stead has you fall prone when the stead dies. Which is far more likely to happen
You can't ride Phantom Steed's fade according to RAW. According to Jeremy Crawford, the fade is to allow you a minute to dismount, not to ride.
@@Mr_Maiq_The_Liar the spell end if the steed takes any damage. That is explicitly stated in the spell.
"there is a diference in feel powerfull and be powerfull" my dude, your wisdom hit im my soul
We have a Battle Master/Bladesinger in my party who exclusively Hastes himself; that coupled with Shield gives him a 30 AC.
So except for crits, nothing hits him to lose the concentration, and he simply walks to the most advantageous positions to fight with no care of Opprtunity attacks.
However, this is a very specific build to get as much AC as possible, not a shining example of how good Haste is.
Give that man a flametongue and fear him, and don't let the dm give him cloak of displacement. I'd argue bladesinger is one of the only very high value haste targets
Haste is best on rogues and melee clerics, classes balanced around hitting really hard once, and if they miss their turn is wasted.
Haste is really good on rouges. Rouge can attack with their haste action, them prepare action to attack again. On a regular lvl. 5 rouge it adds 10.8dpr, but on a kobold rouge with pack tactics active, it can add 15.12
At the cost of the wizards concentration, a 3rd level slot, and the rouges reactions, we can double the DPS of the rouge.
Assuming a Kobold rouge with pack tactics active, a short bow or hand crossbow, and 18 Dex, they deal 4d6+4 damage per hit with snak attack. If the enemies have an average of 15 AC, and the Kobold rouge has advantage, the rouges DPR is (3.5*4+4)*0.84=15.12
With haste, they can do this twice, since they guarantee their reaction gets used on the attack.
haste is also really good when applying rouge. I can get my makeup on twice as fast. less time in front of the mirror.
Smooth brain: Using haste to run away
Big brain: Using phantom steed to run away
Galaxy brain: Casting haste on your phantom steed to run away
Great video liked the overall breakdown of the spell.
Thank you!!!!
I can really only think of one situation where Haste really shines outside of Rogue: When you have a melee character in your party who is trying to deal with a particularly slippery opponent (who can't fly) because it does double-duty: making the recipient effectively impossible to run away from while also adding on some extra damage. A rogue or barbarian with haste cast on them can move 240 feet per round, and can still use their attack actions at 160 feet meaning that it effectively negates many of the popular combat teleportation spells. Plus if the enemy spellcaster does that thing where they charm the barbarian after you haste them, you can deny them value from their charm effect by dropping your concentration!
Naturally, this just means the opponent will try extra hard to break your concentration... or they'll opt to trade you two of your turns for one of theirs and simply use Dispel Magic to break your haste.
In reality this is a self-buff spell for a Gish that is looking to cast a spell but can get the bonus action off the Attack action. This way they can attack twice while still getting off a spell.
There is a reason its almost never cast at my tables. That being said in the right circumstances with the rogue as mentioned or a GWM recklessly attacking barbarian against foes with lowish ACs, it can wrack up a lot of bonus damage.
As a new viewer I’ve really been enjoying your videos. Subscribed!
On another note, thank you for talking about the positives of bless. Whenever I talk to people about builds, it’s always about hunters mark, hex and other damage increasing stuff on power attack builds. Personally I’d prefer bless, nailing that sharpshooter shot will give you way more damage reliably.
It's pretty good on a tank who has a pretty high AC. AC doesn't become very useful until it's hitting the mid twenties again most mobs past level 6, but if your tank has access to Shield and a good AC to start, the plus 2 becomes a lot more relevant. Very few creatures, even big ones, regularly get a 28 to hit. Also good on tank because they're definitely going to want that move speed, and using the action to attack is the least exciting thing you can use it for. Dodge action to prevent hits even if surrounded or restrained or whatnot, disengaging without sacrificing your attack action, more often than not these are relevant in a fight.
Granted, bless, phantom steed, fly and shield of faith would better better than Haste if cast on one guy, but that's a whole lot of spells to cast on one guy--the value of Haste is that it's a package deal, it doesn't take two clerics and a wizard (who also gives up their own steed). It's valuable if you're making use of every part of the package, which martial classes can, and it allows your cleric to have spirit guardians devouring all the goblins because they aren't blowing their concentration on shield of faith.
As for taking a dip into cleric: yeah that's a good strategy, but it's hard to find a class that it isn't a good idea to dip into for power. 5e classes are super frontloaded, taking a dip into anything is going to be stronger than leveling through one class. The issue is that it's not always what you want to do/not allowed.
It's basically Solemn Simulacrum from MtG: None of its individual effects are great, but it does so many effects for its cost it's worth it. You've got AC, mobility, damage, dex saves, and utility.
It was basically made for the Wizard to put on the Paladin; they lack mobility, have bad dex saves, can benefit from the extra action, due to their high AC they benefit the most from AC boosts.
"I did it to my players once as Strahd."
Me, maniacally rubbing my hands together as I'm prepping my next CoS session...
"Casting this on yourself is worse no matter who you are?" -- What about a Tank build Armorer Artificer with Guardian Armor? The Gauntlet attacks that the armorer has cause their enemies to have disadvantage against targets other than themselves. Having an extra attack to stack that on additional enemies can be greatly beneficial. Haste also gives the target +2 AC. As a tank with infusions for additional AC, an artificer can easily have 22 (or higher) AC with plate mail and shield (post level 9 obviously). Artificer's also have Proficiency in Constitution saving throws and can take an infusion that allows them to use a reaction to auto save a concentration check (after you know you fail) which is pretty good odds. In other words, it is hard to break their concentration on haste, they can stack more debuffs, are able move about the map much easier to assist their allies. And be a useful tank since many enemies would not be able to hit them easily or their allies. There are some flaws to this method sure (like magic missile or constant AOE spells), but it makes for a nasty combo. You really only want to utilize haste on yourself if there are many enemies but little to no casters. Why am I arguing this point? Not sure just like sharing a situation I believe would constitute casting haste on yourself. I know not many people get to play higher level campaigns and might not get up to level 9 (when half casters get the ability to cast 3rd level spells). BUT this is a sleeper that I don't see many people bring up (artificers in general).
"Why cast Haste (one spell) when you can cast Bless + Phantom Steed + Shield of Faith (3 spells)"?
Lmfao ikr
Haste + Rogue is fun =)
But I do like haste + horizon walker. I prefer to concentrate on haste than hunter mark.
But Conjure animals is right there!!! Swarm the enemies with puppies!!!!
If ONLY there was another 3rd level damage option for a Horizon Walker Ranger that completely outclassed Haste, amirite? What was it? Fonjure Canimals?
@@PackTactics By the time ranger gets to summon dogs around most creatures are immune to them though
@@WildBandit300 Thats fine, They can block the creatures, grapple or dodge and stuff. Just be generally annoying.
@@WildBandit300 Conjure giant owls to give the whole party a fly speed, and maybe baboons / flying monkeys to throw someone's magic stones with pack tactics!
Regarding the "Why Bless is a better spell over Haste breakdown:" Last I checked, Wizards and Rangers don't get Bless, (most; outside of the Strength and Zeal UA domains) clerics don't get Haste, and only specific sub-class Paladins can get both the Haste and/or Bless. I'm not sure if you count the Plane Shift Amokhet, but if so, then Bless is better than Haste also for those Cleric and other Paladin sub-classes. The one exception is if allowed a spell-casting class that gets the Rakdos Cultist Background (which is made for the Ravica realm, but this is not necessarily for sanctioned play, but some do not allow play-test material even in private campaigns.)
The numbers for DPS being better for Bless vs Haste add up, but not the scenario compared, unless you are of the (sub) classes mentioned above.(The one background aside, Divine soul sorcerers are the other other sub class outside of former play-testing/PSA that get Bless outside of Cleric/Paladin.)
Plus, the Haste benefits for Adding 2 to your target's (yes, never cast haste on yourself) AC and doubling their speed for that melee type to actually reach their target (I'm looking at you 25' Dwarf Melee build Paladin or fighter or other build with Full Plate or maybe a Gnome/Halfling Hexblade Warlock if not a Bowlock.)
Edit: Oh yeah, and advantage to Dex ST. Also, it's a bit of an argument if it's worth dipping into cleric or going capstone for wizard builds, and that depends on your contingency build character. If you plan on MC builds, then your argument is definitely sound for group buff but better for haste if doing a singular character's Buff in the short term. Also you start casting Bless *and* shield of faith and that's multiple actions even if both L1 spells. you are squandering your actions for not casting one L3 haste, if your party are doing the multi-buff on one big bad combatant in your party stacked.
But again, depends on your contingency if doing a singular person or a multi person buff control casting. It's better if one caster can do one spell rather than multiple spells if done in the midst of combat. If you have time before then sure, cast the multiple lower level spells.
And anyway as Johnathan Shi and others have said here and elsewhere, you (the plural group you) should have abilities/spells that can also target a rouge's *reaction* so they can get an additional sneak attack damage instead of just hasting.
But if you have the option to cast Bless vs Haste, the pure DPR of Bless is higher, that is true; just check the contingency you are in to see what action economy is more important and what individuals (whether yourself or another or others) would benefit from what spell/s and/or response(s) the PC(s) can do.
But I will see what you redo in the bless video to see how it's revision stacks up, and look forward to your wisdom Pack Tactics.
Oh and when I play my wiz, that barbarian Warforged always protects his haste buddy. Saved my targeted butt many times cause I was always ready with the haste. 😀
the best wizard is a wizard with 1 level in either twilight cleric or peace cleric
@@hannayapelekai1628 having played a Twilight cleric, I fully agree with this dip if you decide to multi-class this way.
@@joshuacr yea twilight cleric is arguably the most OP subclass in the game, on one of the better classes in the game
Ive made a build that benefits even more than rogues from this spell! (Prerequisite, level 14 totem barbarian unfortunately, take eagle, bear, and then eagle again) Grapple any two nearby enemies while under this spell, and immediately cause ~10d6 falling damage to both, using your bonus action and hasted action to dash, land on one of your new friends to halve your falling damage (which you are also resistant to), and just use the rest of your saved 20ft of movement to get up from prone, and just repeat until you are holding pancakes,
use your action on subsequent turns to continue attacking your prone and grappled enemies with unarmed strikes, or if you haven’t gotten the fighting style from a feat, just use it to dash as well
I've been working on an undead race for some time, and one of the subraces is inspired by Frankenstein's monster. Similar to the flesh golem, they're immune to lightning damage, and instead convert lightning damage to temp HP and gain the same effect as Haste (but non-magical), and have to spend some of that temp HP every turn to keep it active (thus taking damage can end the Haste effect sooner). I used to wonder if this was perhaps too strong, but now I'm seeing how it could even be a liability.
Which, if anything, just makes them more interesting. It would be tricky to exploit this, but two dragons, one with lightning breath, could do it by tag-teaming with breath weapons.
Just a public thought:
If haste worked like slow in that it could target up to X creatures in an area how would it affect your opinion of the spell? Would you think it more balanced against other 3rd level spells?
That would change my perception by a lot.
The reason that Haste is so weak for third level has everything to do with the 3.5 version of the Spell.
It used to be ungodly insane: multi target (one per level), longer (one round per level, could be easily doubled), and added 1 extra attack to the full attack action. There was no such thing as Concentration back then, so it was bonkers. They nerfed it, but went overboard because of the perception of it in their head. It is but a shadow of what it once was, and could use a buff: either by making it multi targeted again, and turning the incapacitation into a slow effect; OR, by only making the additional action unrestricted, making it much more versatile and much deadlier to use.
@@gabrieleluigipia3830 thank you for this perspective. my only old edition experience is the baldurs gate games and haste was pretty damn powerful there too ;D
An additional thing you overlooked is that you can Dash more than once in a turn. That means you can Dash thrice while hasted if you're a monk or Rogue. Combo with other speed buffs for hilarity.
The all-in-one nature of the spell also makes it attractive for combats where you expect shifting conditions, or for non-prepared casters. Not to mention it can be prepared in Glyph of Warding or a potion.
Whoop di do.
Target an enemy creature. Wait for your DM to say that of course the enemy is willing to have haste cast on it. Immediately drop the spell and make them exhausted.
Warning, only works once per DM.
I play sorcerer's and I twin it. I think you are also vastly underestimating +2 AC in 5E and the huge amount of mobility you get from all the movement. Every miss is more HP you/they/others don't need to heal. I typically play with people where one person concentrates on bless and another concentrates on twinned haste (typically me).
Haste is very useful when put in to a consumable like a potion. Haste with concentration is not the greatest.
Haste without concentration? Amazing
It's always fun to watch your videos
When the time comes I won't remember these facts, but they are nice to know nonetheless XD
This is actually a really interesting analysis!
As somebody who's playing a character who is designed to not have any big booms and just make everyone else feel cool I'll still have it to give specific characters cool moments, especially since she's not using her 3rd level slots as much for other things and has a feature to make her better at concentration, but this video is definitely going to have me relying on good old _bless_ way more now!
Haste is a blast to buff on your allies though. My whole table gets worked up on the Paladin about to kick some ass.
Bless is the bardic inspiration we all forget to apply and have to be badgered to use.
Always remember bless! Its huge!
Thought: consider (if you know or can ask enemy AC) only adding Bless if you know it could affect the outcome.
And then noting down everytime you cause it to hit.
Could help y'all not forget.
@@albertdanquah4597 with bounded accuracy, bless can almost always affect the outcome. There are still times when there are better spells to cast, but it really is one of those boring, but practical, combat spells that a cleric would be wise to keep on their preparation list.
I'm playing a Paladin and my mate a Ranger , we just hit 9th level and we both get Haste on our subclasses list. We had a conversation straight away, The ranged archery (with Sharpshooter)Ranger casts haste on the melee paladin and the paladin casts Bless on the team. With bless 1d4, charisma +2 and con +2 the paladin has an OK (not superb)concentration check, but if he loses concentration he is still hasted. Works so far as long as the ranger doesn't get targeted. Great combo for teamwork.
@@samuelbroad11 87.5% (this is with bless) on concentration check is not just OK, it is actually good! A Sorcerer at the same level needs 18 on con to beat your save unless they also have warcaster which you could also have.
This more or less summarizes 90% of my experiences with haste.
I really do wish it was better. Maybe if it was a bonus action to cast and didn't loose you a turn when it ended it would be more worth while.
Hast is amazing on a polymorphed target. Hasting a T rex increases it's dpr by 30.94 and the T rex's bite restrains so giving it more bites also adds to the control the team has
Casting it on yourself is BEST if you're an Armorer Artificer (stack the AC, get a mind sharpener and even if you still get hit, you aren't dropping Con. Plus, that's three enemies per turn you are giving disadvantage on all attacks to, vs the usual two.
Wow, I sure am glad you've proved that Bless is a better DPR buff than Haste. (At Level 5)
That's really going to matter for the 1 (one) Subclass in the game that ever has the option of choosing between these spells. (Divine Soul Sorc')
It's not even worth mentioning your 'questionable' choices of example builds to calculate DPR, or how Haste works better on allies with high DPH, or how it innately scales in effectiveness without upcasting unlike some other 3rd Level Spells.
But I'm sure the Divine Soul Sorcerers out there will be very grateful for the advice about how to buff their party's Level 5 Subclass-less Crossbow Expert Ranger.
Why is it questionable? I showed my equation and presented what they are. I went with the best build for the level and then I went with the worst and both times bless pulls ahead.
Also I've elaborated on multiclassing and picking fey touched feat.
The only questionable math I saw was that you included crit damage in the bless calculation, but since crits always hit bless does nothing for you there.
@@ATMOSK1234 I'll fix it later. It doesn't change the math much anyways.
2 different subclases of paladin get both bless and haste just saying.
Haste is good for sandbagging and making the Barbarian feel like they made valid life choices.
I appreciate this video, mostly because it lined up with something that I think I had started to pick up on subconsciously without entirely realizing it.
I had been playing a Chronurgist in an Icewindale campaign in a party where I was the only full caster. I normally would have chosen Haste for the flavor reasons here, but I decided to try out Slow, and I quickly came to realize that it was much more powerful for a spell that is supposed to be roughly equivalent in strength with Haste. While it's true that the targets get repeatable Wisdom saving throws, you get up to 6 targets as opposed to 1. Even if you only use Slow to target a single big creature, the spell can often just tilt the combat heavily in your favor with that failed save.
Anything that fails is severely hampered. Melee characters have their speed reduced by half (making it exceptionally hard to close the distance and nearly impossible to flee), and casters have a 50% chance to take 2 turns to cast 1 spell that has a casting time of an action. As it limits the action economy of all effected by forcing a choice between action and bonus action, nullifies reactions, and limiting to only one attack per turn regardless of Extra Attack/Multi Attack, most enemies become incredibly minor threats when Slowed. It also lowers AC and Dex Save, which means other players are more likely to get hits and finish off these targets.
As a Chronurgist, I was often going first, meaning that, if I led off with Slow, the rest of my party got to take advantage of weakened enemies. There were several instances where the fights that would have been difficult quickly shifted in our favor just because enemies could not make full use of their action economy, and in a party with low healing, that ended up keeping us out of trouble far more than just buffing one character and running to avoid damage would have ever done.
In "The Unexpectables", I think the only time they used Haste (from a scroll, if recall correctly) was during the climax of the Plane of Air adventure.
[Mild spoiler ahead]
The party needed to get from one section of the palace to another while being chased by the adventures Big Bad. Borky, the Orc barbarian, picked up the NPC they were helping, which halved his speed, so Panic (Tiefling bard) cast the party's Haste scroll on him so he could run faster (instead of halved movement, Borky now had _triple_ movement (movement halved + movement doubled = normal movement, Move action + Dash Action + Bonus Action Dash)). In character, Borky didn't even notice the effect after the spell ended when they reached their destination, he just assumed he was winded after running around the palace dodging an Oni's attacks while carrying a guy.
"Just a single level dip in cleric."
So, you don't wanna cast Fireball at 5th player level? Huh...
It's about as good as 3 1st level spells together, at a single action, single concentration.
It's a good option, like most spells. Though you don't generally need the movement speed boost. (When you do, Haste gives a party member a whole extra turn though.)
Hear me out on this: why not just dip cleric at 6th level then?
Don't want Meteor Swarm at 17th?
You'll always be a level behind on your main class's features. It's not the most stupid thing imaginable to multiclass, but let's be honest, it's not without its flaws.
@@Marhathor
I originally replied on the presupposition that Kobold was comparing Haste to a some spells you get from dipping in Cleric and that, if one were to do so and still wanted Fireball, just delay the level.
If my Wizard builds ride or die based on the immediacy of learning Meteor Swarm of all spells, then something went horribly wrong in my campaigns and I should probably consider getting Wish instead lol.
I just think it's a bit ridiculous to go "Oh, the wizard has a sub-optimal spell, better start multiclassing". I mean, it's wizard, the class with the biggest spell list. If you desperately need great support spells like Bless, don't play a wizard, play a cleric. Enjoy Revivify at 5th player level, etc. Multiclassing is powerful in very specific cases, but doing it purely to expand your spell list is a waste from any min-maxer's POV.
@@Marhathor I agree that's ridiculous. Kobold agrees too and even mentions such a case at around 5:45. If there's no rogue or barbarian around, just cast a different spell.
Wow, you really have a way of making your own very biased opinions sound like fact. I haven’t seen this much cherry picking since I left the farm.
You might get more bang for your buck with Bless, MAYBE. But considering Bless isn’t on either the Sorcerer OR Wizard spell list, what does that matter? The Wizard can Haste while the Cleric casts Bless.
The simple fact that you had to compare it to a spell that’s not even on the same spell lists already shows that it out performs most others
I'd say the video makes a strong case for not throwing haste out ALL the time. I'd say it has very good uses, much more than the video makes it out to be, but still. I'd say your best bet is throwing haste on a GWM barbarian (who gets much more use out of a third attack) or a rogue. But even suboptimally, throwing it on the worst case I could think of (two weapon ranger) they STILL essentially get the benefits of the dash action for free, +2 AC, advantage on dex saves, and the ability to disengage while keeping all 3 of their attacks at level 5. Your coked up ranger is hitting 3 targets per turn and none of them get to hit back if they're melee.
Point is, dude’s entire channel is basically dedicated to being a D&D hipster and trashing things that are “mainstream”
This made me remember when I started 5e.
Coming straight out of 3.5e into 5e, playing a Wizard and picking spells like Enlarge and Haste and then when using them in combat, hearing the DM explain how those worked now in 5e almost made me drop the class.
in my campain we modified haste a little bit to make it more vilable: it doesn't take concentration, but when the spell ends the target straight up falls asleep for 1 minute, and he can't wake up before the time under any circumstance.
It's also great on Paladin whether it be the ones who get it as oath spells or a party member casting it on one. The extra attack is another opportunity to smite and not lose half your damage on a miss as well as the movement and AC help you get up to the bad guy and thrive. It's not a go to but it something in the back pocket especially if the Paladin wasn't going to get there this turn anyway. However, the caster and or the Paladin should have Resilient Constitution and War Caster, which are good feats anyway and will help provide sustain to keep providing dividends and avoid the dreaded penalty until after the So yes still niche, but Paladins are there with Rogues in it being viable to use .
Yeah, a Paladin is likely in heavy armor anyway, so the +2 to AC makes them a lot less likely to get hit and drop concentration, especially if you stack Warcaster (which is fair since his examples looked at GWM/SS characters, or saying you should take Fey-Touched to get access to Bless). While Bless will directly benefit your attack rolls, an extra attack is still a pretty good way to get another chance at Smites, and that extra attack can still deal its own damage and Smite as well.
Ok leaving aside the fact that haste is persistent damage and couldn't be compared with bless, I'll grant that I'd much rather cast bless that I'd cast haste.
but.
-A cleric dip isn't as free as it seems. Arteficer is much easier to fit in a build, since with con proficiency you don't have to take res con, and not taking arty means you aren't able to secure your con save with lucky untill 4 if you choose custom lineage or variant human, later if you choose any other race.
-If you are taking fey touched as a wizard there is no reason to not take gift of alacrity instead. If you are a chronugist there is no reason not to take telekinetic instead of fey touched.
Now that's the same for defense. any way to buff the defences of allies isn't available to wizards, that's the first spell they see that is useful in that role.
For mobility, wizards have better options, let's focus on both phantom steed and fly.
Phantom steed lasts 1 hour, is difficult to give to the whole party unless you decide no not use the short rest for yourself (and no sane dm would allow rest casting), and requires a spell taken that you might not afford. It's one of the best third level spells, but saying that it gives the right party member mobility when you need it is just wrong, it gives you mobility at basically 0 cost for the start of the day, but that will eventually stop being the case.
Fly is a better comparison, but fly isn't as good at role compression. you get better mobility, but you don't get the defense boost that you will need sometimes, and you don't get the damage buff (wich again, isn't once per turn. that's important in multiple ways, that we'll look at soon.)
Now, all of the comparison with debuffs aren't that good. the whole thing with buffs is that they stick 100% of the times, and comparing it with something that might just not stick isn't fair. Tasha's mind whip doesn't have a 70% chance to stick, it has a 30% chance to do nothing and waste your action.
Now you made a good comparison in the video, and the comparison is with fireball. Fireball deals an average of 22,4 damage, assuming 40% chance to succeed the saving throw, wich we can assume in most non rogue cases to be the damage of haste in something like 3/4 rounds, and that's against only 1 enemy. even if the enemy passes the saving throw, it's still almost 2 rounds worth of damage, and against multiple opponents it's not even a comparison.
First of all and most obvious, you shouldn't cast haste if you can get 3 or more monsters with an hypnotic pattern or a similar spell. Your debuff is there for that reason.
Second, you shouldn't cast haste if all you get is the attack damage. It's just not worth it.
Before getting to conclusions, it's not fair to say that every situation in wich enemies can't be approached in turn 1 is a situation in wich you could just cast hypnotic pattern.
If you don't win initiative enemies will divide by running towards you. they will start spreading while approaching the moment they see a spellcaster. you could fall in a very particular ambush. enemies could be immune to the mass debuff that you took at level 5 for some reason.
Now
which are the situations in wich casting haste has a big impact.
-If you have someone that can deal massive damage in one hit, of course.
-If you are any wizard build that can't access cleric spells and wants an option to apply a defensive buff to your allies.
-If you have any need for a significant mobility boost on an ally, the easiest example is a melee that can't get to your opponent on turn one and would lose on a complete attack.
-If one of your melee allies with good AC doesn't have a good hit point situation, you will help secure their survival while adding some damage. casting haste on a heavy armor Paladin can, in some situations, halve the chance they'll get hit.
-In a lot of situations where you get the chance to cast it before the battle. if you add the fact that you don't need any action to set up suddenly the damage becomes much more appealing.
-door tanking
-haste debuffing someone for the memes?
Now I believe that the role compression and the significant defensive buff utility that evades most wizard builds is a good addition to the wizard arsenal, but to all of this i need to add one caviat.
-Only cast haste if your concentration is absolutely secured.
The chance to drop haste by accident might as well be adding a saving throw to the spell
But I'll say this, I played an Artychron recently, the most common wizard build between optimizers, and simce I took lucky at level 5 I never lost concentration once. I'm now at level 8. I would love to dodge and draw attacks.
So I'd say, consider haste if you're playing a wizard with secured concentration and good AC that can't access the cleric spell list. That's a significant portion of wizards.
Also yes, the haste nerf was unnecessary to say the least
I must add,a sorcerer casting haste is not at all as you describe, double haste is using a lot of resources, but it's also only using one action. and the further you go in levels the less precious sorcery points become.
@@crunter4270 But further levels you go like when you get 4th level spells, you're then twinning Polymorph. So who cares about Haste?
@@PackTactics sure but you'll have to wait for 4th level spells first, and eventually polymorph falls off
@@crunter4270 No it doesn't. Polymorph saves your friends and opening fights with it. Polymorph is relevant at higher levels do to that fact, bless is relevant at higher levels because better damage for cheap slots solves better. Haste isn't relevant when you get it or later levels. Why would it be relevant at later levels? I read this twice now? lol
the thing I really want you to get out of this is theres a problem with the package through many angles. I optimise, I want all 3 effects to be effective every round for me to get the most out of the spell. You'll find thats very hard to do, majority of cases you are getting 2 effects in reality. So... Not optimal. I don't want to put anything to waste.
10:15
"you could've ended the fight with your 3rd level slot but instead you decided to use it to have more fun. Unoptimized"
I mean you're on an optimization channel. Idk what you expected
@@bigsmoke8816 fair
To be fair, when the extra movement speed saves you actions because your barbarian 70 feet away was going to dash, or when you fight as a skirmisher. It maths better for the value of each action, than if the movement speed meant nothing and you’re just making one extra attack. The damage increase of making 3 attacks instead of none is worth it. Movement speed hardly means nothing on melee martials
Also: a glory Paladin can haste themselves and their stead, and can remain a threat as a tank via a con save good enough to not worry about failing.
While there aren’t many tank abilities, there are some. compel duel, sentinel and such
Haste can be useful in these situations:
The speed saves an action, in addition to the action granted.
In conjunction with fly.
Fleaing enemies,
Paladins twinning it on steads
Rogues
Martials who spent resource on hits, like monks paladins and some rangers can blow more resources a turn if it’s the last fight of a day. Or who have rider effects of significant use
The target themselves has a tank ability that directs or suggests attacks towards them. Or is otherwise for other reasons a primary target
The interact with an object action is used sufficiently, such as poisoning a blade with a sufficiently powerful poison.
The target is the only one fighting.
In races or non combat based tests of speed.
Generally though you want to find a way to either benefit from one of the clauses of mobility damage or defense more than the spell is intended by either having tank abilities, rider effects or effects that can be pumped into attacks at will, or additional need for mobility, or somehow benefit form all 3 at the same time. By needing mobility initially in a fight, while also having a need for offense and being a primary tank.
It’s not that unlikely to benefit sufficiently from all 3 clauses. Just take any melee martial who starts more than their speed feet away, and who’s damage isn’t dependent on making extreme amounts of attacks but 1 or 2 powerful attacks, and who can function as a tank. In other words, barbarians paladins and rangers. And to their credit, some rangers and paladins do get this spell themselves.
Doing the math of a dps of a ranger who makes 3 attacks a turn is not the best situation. Try it on someone who makes two and each clause is about as strong as a first level spell and it excels with other abilities that grow stronger the more attacks someone makes such as stunning strike (although it itself is weak) smite, holy weapon, spirit shroud or other rider effects
It combines alright with bless but see how it combines with holy weapon or spirit shroud for some real numbers.
Why would you say something so controversial yet so brave?
Because shaking the meta is a healthy thing to do. Haste has always been bad and its beyond me why me and my friends are the first to say it on a big platform.
While I can see your point, I am very afraid, Pack, you are mixing up Cleric spell list with other classes' spell list: If wizard or sorcerer (also druid) had access to those sweet cleric buff spells, I am pretty sure less people would defend haste.
Phantom Steed is a ritual spell, so it does not have to compete with haste. You can cast haste at other melee PC on your awesome Phantom Steed while laughing at Big Brained Big Badass who is engaing with same melee PC guy whom haste is casted on. (As I have pointed before it would be more awesome if I can cast bless while mounted on Phantom Steed, but I am very afraid I, as non cleric, does not have access to Phantom Steed and Bless at the same time)
I said dip for it or take Fey Touched feat. The Fey Touched feat is a half feat so it doesn't hinder your progression to 20 Int or Charisma.
Its interesting watching these. I dont play 5th ed D&D with main experience being 3.5 and pathfinder where haste is a staple as affects multiple people, it only lasts rounds/lvl (3 rounds when first get it) but you dont need to concentrate on it so after you cast you go one with other spells or action. Interesting to see the change
I play an armorer artificer and have made a TON of items that kinda work like spell gems so im basically always taubting with my action and casting spells with the haste action through using objects that replicate said spells.
Also i have the infusion to not lose concentration just in case.
I find it fun, even if its not optimal
Nah, sorry.
We stan “Haste” in this household, no exceptions. 😚
But you know what is optimal? These videos.
Thank you!
the thing you might want to consider is, haste does not just give extra dmg but more ac and movement speed, all in one spell slot saying its bad because its too expensive yet you are using multiple spells for all the effects that haste gives. cleric cant caste all these effects in one turn. that aside, bless affects accuracy, not dmg, you may hit more, but it does not mean you are crit-ing more or attacking twice. I appreciate it but if you are going to separate the buffs and calling it bad then you are just ignoring its biggest benefit, you are not spending multiple spellslots on one person. you don't need to use, fly, shield of fate, and bless. you just need to cast haste and position yourself in a safe spot. (also how often are you with a steed?)
My favourite underrated thing about Haste is that while it's buffing your GWM Barbarian, it's also covering exceptionally well against charm/mind control effects targeting that character.
It's not even a reaction to drop concentration at the start of the Barbarian's turn, which will take away their action and movement in the event of mind control, normally without affecting their ability to retry the wisdom save. And failing that, it gives the rest of the party an extra round to solve the problem/get out of the way. All for free, and while freeing up your concentration.
When compared to Bless, you can't even drop Bless on the Barbarian without losing the bonus for everyone else, and he still gets to attack straightaway.
If you have a party member who is vulnerable to Wisdom saves and you couldn't afford to take a turn getting targeted by them, strongly consider casting Haste on them before fights where you know there is a good chance of mind control.
Yeah if you’re not casting haste on a Zealot Barb to get them into melee range round 1 where they otherwise would be unable to close the gap its not worth it IMO. There are better spells.
Final move that salvages something from this dumpster fire of a spell - Hexblade 2 Bladesinger X. This meme build will allow you to replace one weapon attack per Attack action with a cantrip, so you can double EB and double crossbow attack on subsequent turns, firing one EB on the round you cast it.
Not that this is better than a normal wizard with higher than 13 Int or anything, but it's one extra redeeming quality to add to this massively overrated spell's obituary.
I think Haste would be passable as a 2nd-level spell without the lethargy, with the TPK button on dropped conc I rank it on par with some 1st-level spells.
Haste's attack is one weapon attack, like gfb or booming blade, so it isn't part of the attack action, therefore being (RAW) invalid for the trade off
@@xuklysc no, it is an attack action, it just specifies that that specific instance of an attack action can only be one weapon attack. That means that it can't be used with Bladesinger to substitute it for a spell, but it does trigger things like Polearm Master and Crossbow Expert for their bonus action attacks, so you could do something like action: Booming Blade, Haste action: attack with your glaive, bonus action: glaive butt attack.
Haste combines well with Mirror Image, Armor of Agathys, and Hellish Rebuke (on the off chance you do get hit). Especially if your first level was in Sorcerer and you have Proficiency in Concentration, rendering your chances of being disrupted insignificant. It also works exceptionally well on a melee mage who can Quicken a SCAG cantrip like Booming or Green-Flame Blade, then follow it with two (or three, depending on your build) normal attacks or even smites. Yes, *literally all enemies* in the vicinity will be gunning for you due to your generally being obscene with glowing and outputting damage, but that means they won't be targeting your allies, who are then free to make use of your massively threatening distraction as they see fit. Which in the case of one of my party members included Wild Shaping into an Earth Elemental and pulling people into the walls/ground.
With AC being superliminal, haste is an amazing tool to cast on yourself as an Artificer. With an AC of 24-25 (plate +2 infusion, +1 shield/infusion, cloak of protection, fighter 1), a +2 bonus to AC makes you untouchable! As battlesmith you have access to shield as well, boosting effective AC as high as 32 meaning most enemies need to crit to hit. With the mind sharpener and proficiency in con saves, you will never lose concentration (I've been playing a hasted artificer for over a year, only time I lost haste was due to dispel magic, ie, the enemy traded their action and spell for my next action). Speaking from experience, the added movement is also a big bonus
You can dodge and make one attack in the same turn. If you have sentinel that’s amazing.
You can say this isn’t good, but I just have to disagree.
I'm not really a sentinel guy. One reaction to shut down one creature isn't something I care about.
Wait until you hear about Spirit Guardians
@@PackTactics sentinel plus haste is pretty good on a paladin.
It’s really good in some encounters.
@@shanderraa7751 that doesn’t change anything. Only one class actually gets to choose between the two.
@@PackTactics Hard agree. 5e already has a massive emphasis on standing completely still as it is. It’s so weird that a big ass dragon can be completely stopped in his ascent because a level 5 fighter love tapped him with his janky broadsword.
Let's first get this out of the way: Haste shouldn't be a 2nd level spell, not by a long shot. I understand that you find it a bad spell (and I disagree with that statement as well), but let's think about balance. Imagine a situation where a character at third level can access to 2 attacks without a caviat like dual weld (no modifier into your damage) or Polearm Master (reduce your dice to a d4) or Hand Crossbow Crossbow Master (being lame ;p ), while also adding 2 AC, advantage dex save and extra mobility. It's waaaaaay too much for Levels 3 and 4. The buffs do stack overall, and it puts a Level 5 PC into a Level 3 group.
Another problem I've seen with your arguments, at least on the attack portion, is that it considers two classes that benefit the least with the extra attack. A non-Hunter's Mark Ranger and a Fighter do enjoy an extra attack, but it would be similar to having dual weld. On the other hand, a Paladin, who enjoys hitting more due to Smite; or a Barbarian, who can stack Rage damage or the mini smite in the case of Zealot, enjoy an extra attack a lot more than an extra d4 on hit, since they care more about how many attacks they can do rather than if they can hit an attack. Even GWMs can use Haste well, but they can use both spells well enough.
I don't agree with comparing Haste with Bless due to two reasons. The first one you do cover on your video, both are from different classes and normally you can't access them, and I find multiclassing a a pretty unreasonable counter-argument. Not every Wizard, Artificer and Sorcerer will have a 13 in Wisdom so they can multiclass into Cleric (or 13 STr and Cha to grab it via Paladin). And while they can grab Fey Touched to gain Bless (and Misty Step), this is less of a problem with Haste and more the potency of Fey Touched, allowing something that normally wouldn't be accessible easy to gain while also gaining an ASI. The only ones that can really compare between the two are Divine Soul Sorcerers and certain Paladins, and on those occasions, Bless is usually a better option (unless you really want to power yourself up with Haste as a Paladin since your Con saves will be better than average).
The second reason, and the main reason I defend Haste as a good spell (not amazing, but good enough to be considered on certain Artificers and Sorcerers), is the fact that it gives the three buffs to the player, and all of them can be useful. If you are a ranged fighter with a bow, while you say the attack is irrelevant because "it may or may not come", I think it's relevant enough to be considered due to the alright increase in damage and opportunities to attack. If you are running away with disengage, while you say the defensive side is irrelevant, I say that it can provide extra safety against ranged foe (something that you rarely consider in your videos). If you are a melee fighter and stay at the frontline, instead of the mobility being "irrelevant", you can catch foes if they try to run away and still have your whole action to attack.
And that's not even considering the actions you can do with your Attack action, like Grappling, Shoving and Tripping. You can do those without sacrificing an attack, since you will have the attack you "wasted" in your backburner. For martials that get creative with your turns, who knows the value of grappling and tripping foes to control the battlefield, let your casters be safe and increase the power of your martial friends, Haste is an incredible spell, because you use all of their options on different occasions. Sure, Fly is a better mobility tool, Bless is a better attacking tool and Shield of Fate is a better defensive tool, but only one spell grants you all those options bundled into one place, all of them having situational uses that each shine on a different situations: Haste.
Lastly, even on the situation you say "Haste can be savaged" I disagree upon. Putting Haste on a Rogue is a trap, since while they can use all three buffs well enough, the problem is that unless they are the fabled Grapple Rogue, the only way they can defend you is by killing something with Sneak Attack, and well, that can just don't work. The best users for the Haste buff are Barbarians and Paladins, since they can protect your caster hide (while you also provide your own buffs, there are plenty of great non-concentration defensive buffs to yourself like Mirror Image or the simple Shield) while also being a threat to the people who ignore them and go straight to you. A Barbarian can grapple, a Paladin can cast his protective buffs into you.
Overall, while I agree that Haste is overrated and on most situations there are better spells, it's not a bad spell and certainty shouldn't be at 2nd level... It just gives you too much stuff, even if most of it is situational, to be a 2nd level spell. Even the concentration isn't a huge problem because, while it does limit a bit your other options, you can still cast some amazing spells while concentrating on Haste.
Its balanced as a level 2 spell because you'll rarely get to use the whole package of the spell, you'll be using 2/3 of the spell majority of the time and they're not very good to begin with then on top of that, you have the looming consequences with concentration. Where else can we put it? Its not a 3rd level spell in power.
@@PackTactics A spell with multiple components, be them multiple buffs or debuffs, rarely will give all the three bonuses on one single fight, but it is the variety, the knowledge of having those buffs for different situations is what really matters on the case of Haste.
It's a similar concept to card games like Hearthstone or Magic. Some cards are seen in competitive decks, even thought they do "less" than comparative cards because they are bundled with other things, creating "a discount" to it. People use Cagematch Custodian on Hearthstone instead of Voracious Reader, two cards that have similar purposes (drawing cards), with the later being able to draw multiple cards in a turn, because Cagematch also brings a weapon. It's the concept of bundled advantages that makes Haste too strong for 2nd level.
Hell, let's take another TTRPG to compare. Haste on Pathfinder gives you even less options for the player, with the extra action being only to either strike with a weapon or move. But it's still 3rd level because first it removes the Concentration disadvantage and second, it still gives you two really powerful situational buffs. Sure, it's going to be rare that you use all 3 effects, but it's way less unlikely that a normal situation uses 2 of those, either a runaway that uses the AC and the extra speed, a charge that uses the speed and the attack or a bunker down that uses the defensive and attack. Haste may not be better than things like Fly for Mobility or Shield of Faith for defense, but bringing those buffs together means that you don't need to choose one of each, you have one tool that solves both problems, even thought it doesn't solve them quite as well as the specialized tool.
I honestly find the concentration to be a fair price to pay. 5e is geared towards action economy, and a spell that allows you to cheat it must come with a severe drawback. Besides, with how many way to make the odds in your favor when using concentration checks (4 of the 7 classes that can access Haste either has Constitution proficiency or a way to boost concentration naturally, with the other half being the ones I don't really suggest into [Wizards, Land Druids and Horizon Walker Rangers]), it doesn't become an issue with proper positioning and defensive buffs (Mirror Image is your best friend with Haste, but Mage Armor, Shield or even Phantom Steed to run away). Just watch out for casters, Dispel Magic can be a bitch.
I think a fair way to consider Haste is that it allows you to cast Shield of Faith, Expeditious Retreat and "Bless" (I know a d4 extra and an attack aren't the same, it's just for the sake of example) on the same target. Three spells that all require concentration bundled into one that also requires it. And thinking like that, it's a pretty nice bundle.
Slight question: Does haste change in effectiveness on vengeance paladin since they can allow it to also target their steed? I mean, I'm guessing it won't outperform 3rd level bless, but against this 16AC enemy, that should be an additional 6.05 dpr, increasing to 8.77 dpr if the target gets knocked prone at some point because of trampling charge.
I've had a lot of success using Haste on myself as a Sorcerer/Paladin. Bless is definitely better for the party in most situations, but Haste gives you so much more flexibility as a dedicated melee combatant about where you are on the map and you're going to hit. Sure, you can do the same thing with a Ranged weapon, but I can't smite on a ranged weapon.
Quickening Haste lets you get off three attacks, three 60' movements (or 120' each with a Find Steed: letting you charge something at around 30 mph).
Haste's power isn't in any one benefit. There is never a moment in time where you're using the whole package: it's power is in adjusting mid-fight what you're doing. If you're tanking on one side of the battle field, and you either eliminated the problem, or need to deal on a more pressing front, Haste lets you do that, when Bless or SoF wouldn't.
Shield of Faith is more efficient for your own defense, Bless is better for the party's offense and defense. But you don't really need to worry about losing Concentration on Haste if you're wearing Heavy Armor, have Warcaster, have a shield already, and are adding your Charisma to the save.
If you quicken an attack cantrip like Green-Flame Blade, you can attack up to four times in a turn. That's four opportunities in a round to find a crit to Smite on. Crit Fishing isn't inherently great, but it's just another perk you get to do on a Paladin.
As for something like Mind Whip or Phantasmal Force instead, a proper Wizard should absolutely be considering whether or not it's better to use a CC debuff, but they aren't necessarily always better. Phantasmal Force doesn't work on all creature types. Maybe your party isn't burning through Legendary Resistances enough for Mind Whip to help. Maybe you have Line of Sight to your teammates, but not your enemies. Does that mean you should be casting Haste? Well, maybe.
Even if Phantasmal Force and Mind Whip might be generally better, is it really optimal for a caster build to include every conceivably worthwhile CC/debuff spell? Does a Wizard really need Web, AND Phantasmal Force, AND Mind Whip AND Hypnotic Pattern AND Cause Fear... prepared? I don't think so. I think it would be better to have whatever you deem to be the most relevant control tools from that list, and then a buff like Haste, or Bless, for when those situations aren't relevant. Most of them cost concentration, so you can't cast all of them in an encounter anyway.
As for casting it on a Rogue, you should also remember that at the next tier of spellcraft is Greater Invisibility, which a Rogue will also love you for.
tl;dr Haste is not always the best spell. It depends on your party composition much more than other easier buffs. But when it *is* the right spell, it makes for some real "Play of the Game" kind of moments. The Community overrates it, but I think this video underrates it. Haste is a teammate enabler spell that lets you spotlight a specific party member.
It's best targets are burst damage melee fighters like Rogues, Paladins, and Barbarians who ordinarily have good mobility and damage but need a dash of extra kick in an encounter to wreck house. There is never a moment where the full power of the spell is being utilized because one of the benefits is not going to be relevant, but because it gives so much flexibility to the target, they can shift roles and position much easier.
Underrated utility is casting Haste on an enemy to trick them out of their turn.
More underrated utility is casting Haste on a bad teammate and immediately ending it out of spite or revenge.
I've been saying FOREVER, that haste on a paladin spell list is a trap. And yet nearly EVERY paladin ranking video or build guide talks about paladins hasting themselves and how "good" it is. These same paladins that don't have Con save proficiency OR War Caster (typically). I LAUGH every time someone ranks Vengeance paladin high, because they have access to Haste. I'm glad someone else sees how bad haste is. I would say Haste is the 3rd level version of "Find Traps".
I wouldn't say its find traps level of bad but its bad. Optimisation scene is very flawed, theres a lot of cases where playing normally like a straight class and picking decent stuff and some bangers here and there are straight up better than optimisation. I joined youtube because Min maxing, powergaming and optimisation are all sub optimal majority of the time and I'm tired of saying the same things over and over again in discord and reddit. Shaking the meta is healthy.
@@PackTactics Yea I was being hyperbolic. But when level 1 spells like Shield of Faith and Expeditious Retreat can grant you a reasonable facsimile of 2/3 of the spell, at 1/3 the spell level... and you said yourself that you almost never use all 3 aspects of Haste in conjunction.... The only thing 1st level spells can't simulate is the extra attack / hide / disengage. But as you also showed, Bless (which paladins already have access to) mathematically outperforms the DPR gain from the extra attack by several times. AND none of the 1st level spells cause their target to loose a round when they end...
I've been playing a horizon walker ranger with the Mobile feat, and the speed buff is quite noticable in this fringe case. It's a fun build because it feels like a skirmisher, running in for quick hits before retreating out of range in cover all in one turn. But haste isn't used nearly as much as I expected. A lot of times the base move and distant strike is enough, and there's other spells that are better in the moment, or it's more effective as a martial character to just hit them.
I'm glad to hear you say it's suboptimal, as a year ago saying I'm playing a ranger that doesn't use hunter's mark or care to cast haste seemed like it would be bad. Now, I feel pretty validated lol
"As a Wizard, you could dip into Cleric for these excellent early support spells"
Or... you could play Cleric? (Or Divine Soul Sorcerer?)
Shoot, with Divine Soul, you can pick up Bless as a bonus spell (or Bane, or Cure Wounds, or Inflict Wounds; one bonus spell, and since you have the Cleric List, Bless is always available).
I do have a small change to haste (which was how my DM & I thought it worked until we checked the spell description & figured our way was a bit better) which makes it a much better defense.
Allow the extra action to be used to dodge, which fits really well with the theme of the spell as well I think.
Also, as interesting as these breakdowns are, I think they would really benefit if there was a dedicated section to possible fixes that would make it live up to its reputation and to a 3rd level spell slot. I say this because while other RUclipsrs do that kind of thing, you could bring a more mathematical angle to yours (i.e. my change is balanced and I have the numbers to prove it!)
Not going to act like you don’t have a point here. But here’s my case: Haste is waaay better in practice than it is on paper. Here is what my party was able to do with a twinned Haste in a deadly encounter:
- Dash with the Haste action, then use the Help action to give the Rogue who was originally 100ft away advantage on an attack (I had a melee build and the enemy was flying)
- Get an extra attack that allowed me to Defensive Flourish (my other two attacks missed, and the AC bump later saved me from a ton of damage)
- Chug a potion to restore hit points, then still cast a spell that turn.
- The immediate boost to both speed and Dex saves allowed my party to spread out and greatly reduce the effectiveness of the opponent’s breath weapon.
- The extra movement basically neutralized difficult terrain.
In short, I agree that in a straight forward encounter where things like long range, cover, difficult terrain, etc. aren’t present, yes, other spells are measurably better. But in an encounter where you need mobility and extra action economy to account for obstacles, Haste has its place.
All the same, thanks for changing my mind! I’ve come to see this less as a god tier spell”, but I’m not sure it’s a “bad” spell either. I’d consider it a “know your DM” spell. If you know your DM likes to give you encounters with a lot of curveballs, Haste helps you account for the unexpected. But if your encounters are essentially JRPGish, yeah, just cast Bless or Fireball.
You can use your initial action to cast a spell/dodge and the haste attack on the things specified
I’m an armorer artificer lover I’m a game where the dm occasionally runs battle royals similar to the critical role one shots. I use this and boots of speed to dash around and focus on looting with the extra actions to dash, open chests, or hide while using pass without trace.
The two biggest benefits to Haste, in my experience, is:
1) 2x the speed and Disengage on the additional action makes it able to attack then move away without provoking an opportunity attack which allows for much better battle control and reduce risk in melee
2) An Eldritch Knight/Wizard (War Magic tradition with War Caster feat) has Eldritch Strike (which on hit the enemy has disadvantage on saving throws against a spell you cast before the end of the next turn) thus if able to cast spells and hit enemies then they are much more likely to fail the saving throws meaning that even cantrips like Booming Blade can deal, on average, 90 damage (225 damage if the enemy moves willingly) in 10 rounds while dissuading the enemy from moving! There is also Toll the Dead which can, on average, deal 195 necrotic damage in 10 rounds! Most of the time the enemy is likely going to be dead before the spell ends.