Stunning Strike good in Dnd 5e? - Advanced guide to Stunning Strike
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- Опубликовано: 7 апр 2022
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But New Gator- I mean... But Kobold. What about Tasha's Hideous Laughter? D:
Howdy Kobold,
Please consider changing the music. You have been using the same old track and when you binge all your stuff all you hear is that song ESPECIALLY with shorts 🩳. Have you experimented or considered changing it up a bit? I understand RUclips-copyright is such a pain.
And I actually enjoy bagpipers and their sounds. Tell me to eat my shorts if your formula works for you!
@@tawumpas Fiine, I'll record a new song this week then. Yes. I record all the music on my own.
@@PackTactics nice I wish I could play bagpipes
It's not so much that Stunning Strike is good, it's just that Stunning Strike is just about the best use you have for your Ki.
Anything that uses more than one Ki point just drains your reserves too fast for the return you get.
You can't really rank the Monk classes because it doesn't matter what features you gain from them. You might as well play a Four Elements Monk for the free Prestidigitation, because the only features your Monk will be using is Stunning Strike, Flurry of Blows, and Patient Defense.
Everything else is a waste of Ki.
I enjoyed the monk immersion, I’m glad that this video isn’t just a whole bash on stunning strike lol. But at the end of the day I have to acknowledge gator being right. Love that you used the gatorbold in a video.
Did you watch this early via Patreon?
My favorite homebrew monk fix drops monk down to a mid level feature for one of the subclasses. His reasoning for getting rid of it is that its a loose loose power. If the strike suceeds the DM and possibly the rest of the party has less fun, if the strike fails then the monk player has less fun.
@@PandorasFolly dm shouldn't have less fun just because the monk beats their poor encounter design
I remember when we won initiative, our Monk was able to stun a boss zombie in its coffin. He stunned it every round so he never got back up. It was an easy encounter. However, this scenario only happened ONE TIME.
Most of the time he just waste ki points and hardly ever stun anything.
My Monk manages to stun boss monsters with a regularity that annoys the heck out of my DM.
@@jbirkins whoa! How? Don’t they have super high Con saves?
I did this with my monk. Honestly stunning strike is great. If you manage to stun the big baddie first round thats it, as now you have advantage on all attacks (as does everyone else).
It's also pretty good for crowd control. Pairing with flurry you can stun maybe 3/4 enemies, nullifying them for a round.
Most Dms - “Stunning strike is op and I want to nerf it”
Kobold - “let’s see if we can make Stunning strike not suck”
Honestly the problem I have with Stunning strike is more from a design standpoint than a power one... because It's really an all or nothing ability. Imagine if as a spellcaster you had an ability to burn 2/3 of your spell slots to guaranteed incapacitate an enemy for a single round without a save. I think most people would agree that the effect is very powerful, but in doing so you seriously hamper your ability to do... anything else until you can get a rest in. The GM isn't happy because you've denied one of the cornerstone monsters of the encounter a turn and opened them up to massive damage, the player isn't happy because they're stuck doing worse than cantrip damage because they've burned all their resources. Stunning strike is like that, but worse, and on top of that I think that the surface-level power of the ability is part of why monks suffer at almost everything they do: They're expected to stun, that's their job, it's the black hole that sucks in all their class features.
If there were other worthwhile conditions a monk could inflict I think they'd be in a better place.
I think moving Stunning Strike over to prof bonus per day/short rest/whatever would be a good start, maybe with a 1/round cap but you choose to use it when you hit so it becomes a bit more reliable. That way it's not a ki-devouring trap and it doesn't basically negate solo-monster fights. If I were to go further I'd let monk inflict a lighter condition for free that acted as a setup for Stunning Strike so it was even more reliable (I want it to generally work on most standard enemies without hitting current ki-haemorrhage to auto-succeed levels, y'know, standard caster-level reliability), let's go with: Dazed - disadvantage on concentration checks and saving throws to avoid becoming stunned, monks automatically inflict Dazed if they hit the same opponent with 2 or more unarmed attacks on their turn.
If monk could Dex-grapple and if tripping was worth a damn (entire movement to stand and/or opportunity attack when standing) then flurry could allow the monk to be a decent melee CCer, lift the size restrictions later to keep it viable. Maybe make disarm less garbage as well while we're here.
Yes, Stunning Strike is the most poorly designed class feature in 5e
True, and I dare to say that subclass the Way of Mercy is a literally rework monk class.
From class you get Flurry of blows. The from subclass you get Hand of Healing & Harm, one to heal the other one to inflict harm.
On 6 lvl Hand of harm give poison condition and hand of healing cure diseases ond many conditions.
On 11th level your Flurry of blows get upgreaded with your subclass features to be cheaper to use.
So my analogy is that:
Hand of harm is better and weaker Stunning Strike. Its better bc its more reliable but weaker bc Stun condition > poison condition.
And Flurry of blows get upgread. You know, like other classes, not subclasses just classes.
Like Warlock can upgread its Eldricht blast.
Fighters got Action Surge upgrade and Indomitable upgrades. Even Extra attack can be called upgrade.
Even reworked Ranger with Favored Foe, do not mistake it for Favored Enemy.
What skill upgread monks get? Well... movment speed to run from a fight faster, and
Martial art die to be able to keep up in dmg, but they cant bc of many reasons like magic items, feats.
And I am not saying that there should be feat that allows them to deal more dmg, or more magic items for it. Why?
Because if give it to monks then for fair comparason we have to give similar one to other classes.
Its like if monks power lvl is 3 and Fighters is 7 then when I give monks and fighters +3 then the diffrence is the same.
Meybe Extra Attack(1) on 17th level. 10th level ASI. Feature Purity of Body got on 9th level.
Tongue of the Sun and Moon also gives proficiency in insight checks or if you have it then the proficiency is doubled.
20th lvl if you have less then 8 ki points you regain ki points to that amount(8), also you have reached the peak of your body or mind that gives you +2 to Dex or Wis and make choosen one max stat to be 22.
The only thing what is left is stunning strike that could be more reliable for meybe against many weak opponents.
Worst part is, as a caster you can do a very similar thing to what you described but for a single spell slot and for a longer period of time
I'd be willing to say smite but yeah@@mrbananahead2005
the real problem with Ki is that too many features cost Ki and there are a lot of dead features on monk if those features were better as to not have the Ki cost or be more functional than the monk would be in someways capable
Supposedly the point of Ki is to scale which is how the Monk scales. More uses = more effectiveness. Unfortunately, this leaves Ki in the position of either being weak so that it's not broken at higher levels when you can spam it nearly every round, or strong so that it's more useful at higher levels.
It can't really achieve both unless the ki abilities themselves scale at higher levels, or at least give you optional "spend X more ki to do Y more stuff" at higher levels so that you have capable burst instead of simply spending ki to just barely keep up with everyone else.
@@AnaseSkyrider If all monk abilities had something like an amount of uses equal to half your proficiency rounded up each then costs Ki after would go a long way to buff the monk.
@@michaelrizzo7342 I feel like it would be simpler to just add WIS mod ki points. A +2 to +4 is pretty okay.
@@agilemind6241 I think you underestimate how beneficial dodge can be. Disadvantage to be hit and advantage on dex saves if you can see the source. If monks could do that for free every round it would be amazing
@@crownlexicon5225
Indeed. One of the nastiest things to do as a Cleric is just put up Spirit Guardians, Spiritual Weapon, and then Dodge each turn. With your 19-20 AC (Half-Plate or Full Plate) and disadvantage on attack rolls it's going to take a lot of effort by the DM to take them down. You have proficiency on Wisdom and Charisma saves, and the first ASI should go to taking Resilient (Constitution) so it's a bit difficult to land status effects on you or break your concentration. Play an Elf (of course) for advantage on Charm saves and immunity to magical Sleep.
I read of one guy who basically soloed a fight that his party was very underleveled for after the rest of the party ran away. He didn't expect to win, but he did.
Of course Cleric is one of the strongest chassis in the game, to the point that the Domain you choose is basically flavour. Knowledge, Trickery, and Light are my favorites.
It's similar with Monk (for the opposite reason) because their subclass features are so weak that the only things you'll spend Ki on are Stunning Strike, Flurry of Blows, and Patient Defense. Anything else is just a waste of Ki.
Whenever I've toyed with homebrewing with Monk, I've always included mechanics to allow them to regenerate Ki points to make things a little more interesting. Some of the ideas I've liked have been features that allow the refunding of Ki for Step of the Wind, Patient Defense, or Stunning Strike under certain conditions, a rework of Four Elements I've been working on that has it operate more like Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster and allow them to use Ki like Sorcery Points (including burning spell slots to recover Ki), and another subclass I'm brainstorming that has a Bardic Inspiration-like mechanic where the inspiration die both boosts the ally's roll and regenerates the Monk's Ki.
I feel like mechanics like that are more fun than just giving the Monk more Ki, since it makes the class's resource management more dynamic, and also captures the intended feel of the class more because it feels more like manipulating some internal energy instead of simply burning through a fuel.
My monk quick fix, they can recover ki points equal to prof bonus as an action prof bonus times per day. And two more ASIs at levels 6 and 14.
My impression before the video: if you can afford to burn 5 ki points (one for FoB and then 1 for each attack) to stun the boss because you are high level and you will be able to rest afterwards/are only doing one encounter per day, it is good. Otherwise, MAD martial chassis with no extra ASIs and "per short rest" resources targeting CON saves makes it pretty bad, if not a honeypot.
Silvery Barbs is a game-changer, but I don't think we can call a feature good if it requires a debatably broken spell cast by a different character to have a decent chance to work.
Looking forward to your input!
Magic Initiate or Fey-Touched would at least give you Silvery Barbs once per long rest
@@AnaseSkyrider I know, but I hate that XD
Definitely depends on how many fights per day you'll be doing and what kind of fight, but it's also important to remember that you're only spending 5 Ki if you fail to land the stun on any of the previous attacks. On average, you'll do better than that. If you're smart about it and use it in the right scenarios, it can win fights. (If you're not, you're gonna have a bad time.)
@@eugenides04 But even then, 'the right scenarios' are even more infrequent, and it's still a big gamble.
It's great if you have the right teammates. For example if the bard lands a bane on the enemies, and then use mind sliver (from warlock or sorcerer) thereafter, it increases the odds significantly. Even more so now with Silvery barbs. It's great until things get nerfed
"Enjoy getting yelled at by optimizes" line made the entire video for me.
I do appreciate it isn't just bashing the feature and is honest about its usability.
You can also use this in town without consequences compared to the "better" option. Common people aren't as freaked out about a guy punching someone in the head and him going woozy as they would be about someone pulling out a gun and firing, or throwing spells around. Sometimes it's nice being tough when you aren't on a battlefield.
This guy is the best. I really appreciate these in depth breakdowns and reviews. You keep up the good work and we'll keep up the good vibes.
Yoooo the Kobold finally got a sponsorship.
I hope this helps out with doing the YT full time :]
A thought that someone mentioned somewhere onhere, that's been buzzing in my head: what if Monks didn't have more Ki. What if they had less Ki? Perhaps, only *ONE* Ki. You'd have various weak things you could do to gather or focus your ki. You'd have various moderately powerful things that you could just do for free while your ki was gathered. You'd have various really strong things you could do which spend your gathered ki and release your focus. Now instead of a resource like spell slots, you're making choices about whether you'd rather coast through with gathered ki, or expend it for a bigger burst of power now at the cost of a low-power turn later. Could be a really fluid, really fun playstyle.
Sounds like Martial Focus from the 3pp “Spheres of Might“.
Sounds like smite but with a little more variety, but could be interesting
Treantmonk discussed a ThinkDM monk overhaul along those lines about a week ago with prof-bonus ki regen and max ki equal to prof-bonus plus Wis mod. Stunning Strike was also nerfed (and given a more expensive upgraded version), to make way for all the other monk features to be used more often.
@@Autonym Adding too much regen on top of constantly spending ki is too much bookkeeping. Someone wrote a comment on one of his videos asking about "what if Ki was infinite?" because of the trope of the monk who just has boundless energy, like an old man with the stamina of a well trained soldier.
I mocked up a rework idea in response to it that amounted to just making all your ki regenerate every turn, and now you only get a couple points for most of your Monk career and it becomes like a multi-component modular cunning action with only some of the ki abilities requiring a bonus action. You can't use the same ability more than once per turn. And you only learn *some* of your ki abilities from a pool, similar to maneuvers.
It's probably shit but I could repost it here if anyone's interested. It's a bit long.
That sounds similar to how the Bravely Default games work
Something worth mentioning: After a particular Errata, Grapples/Shoves automatically succeed vs Incapacitated (Stunned) creatures.
That bit about Monks needing to level DEX and WIS basically at the same time in order to have Stunning Strike (or other DC-based subclass ability) scale at all normally compared to full casters is something that WotC has to have someone explain to them. This is something that for a while has plagued Monks and Rangers that want to do more with their spells besides strictly-optimal no-save abilities, at least when compared to Paladin which either doesn't get/use ability-dependent spells, (even having Lay on Hands to make up for normally having a weaker mod when casting something like Cure Wounds), or doesn't really need to worry about them being the crux of their damage until peak levels where they get Destructive Wave.
I would argue that even Barbarian is MAD in this way, and people don't notice it because the entirety of the Barbarian's class being designed to pad out whatever unfortunate physical dumpstat you choose, from Rage's bonus damage padding STR to Danger Sense padding DEX, while pigeonholing you into a melee class that can't even get 20s in STR, DEX, and CON. I've done the point-buy builds, even with 8-stat mentals, 15-stat physicals, Mountain Dwarf for +2 STR/+2 CON, and only using ASIs to pump STR/CON then DEX with no feats, you still end up with 20, 19, 20 after your final ASI at level 19. Sure, you get 24 STR/CON at level 20 and infinite Rages, hell it's arguably second-best capstone in the game behind Moon Druid's infinite Wild Shapes. But that 19 DEX is insulting for people that just want to commit to a raw PHB dumb beatstick build and get shut-out from perfection at the end for their efforts.
I think all three of them need the Rogue's level 10 ASI just to round things out. Just one little boost to either invest in that one feat you want, and/or fully round out your main stats by level 12 instead of level 16.
You're right, which is why I prefer the Medium Armor, 14 Dex, Barbarian build. Sure, unarmored defense is nice, but you don't need it. With Half-Plate and a Shield the Barbarian can reach 19AC, or 17 without the Shield, plus bonuses for magical armour at higher levels.
Which is another reason why the Barbarian is superior to the Monk. It has options.
@@freman007 This is actually what I'm running on my Wood Elf, which ironically started conceptually as an Armored Monk build (a lot of Monk features actually don't care about wearing armor) Plan was Fighter 1-2/Monk X, XGE Cast-off Armor. Wade in with Full Plate and a Maul, and if BA attacks or absurd speed were ever needed, it's just an action to remove and BA Dash is right there. Unfortunately, it's easier to just be a Barbarian, so you don't have to worry about multiclassing minimums on top of not getting feats. You even get to keep your shield on if you take your armor off, instead of RAW needing an entirely separate action to don/doff a shield.
As for the actual Barbarian, I've been up-front investing in CON because of UA Beast Barbarian scaling off CON instead of Proficiency. DM is really nice and gave a +1 CON score boost for helping an NPC with highly dangerous research (basically, level 7 Barbarian makes two DC 18 CON saves vs shady chemical reactions and subsequent death by melting), so that opened up an ASI from +2 CON to Chef with +1 CON and mechanical flavor (also kindly let it be expertise in the tools UA-feat-style, since I had already used downtime for Cooks Utensils proficiency). Having averaged 9s on post-level-1 Hit Dice despite using a VTT, on top of being difficult to hit when behind Half Plate and a Shield, and an extra 5ft from race, at Level 11 she's got a comfortable 18 CON with 146 HP for when attacks actually land. Even uses spears/javelins with her shielding, so she technically has a ranged option!
Current highest damage successfully tanked at once was after she'd thrown a Javelin of Lightning down the barrel of an arcane cannon (figuring that the outside is too armored, maybe plugging it as deep as possible will work). DM said it caused an chain reaction that overloaded the generator, mini-Death Star-style, and she got launched off the parapet to the tune of 15d10 force damage and 4d6 bludgeoning (falling) damage. A close second was when she was dragged into a lava pit by a devil, but Fire-resistance Armor helps with that.
that description bit definitely immerses into that swaying monk. nice
Sweeeeeet
Really *Good* video. It does not lie, like others videos, to people that stunning strike is OP without any major down sides.
You covered 2 points of view and show the situation that it is fine ability to use.
Sadly monks are hurt bc of that skill. Many people thinks that monks aren't the worst class bc of Stunning Strike.
Rangers got reworked and that really helped them a lot. When monks replaced them in the category of the worst class.
Still video was about Stunning Strike and *its great video* . Very good job in being objective about the subject.
Congrats on the sponsors! Great vid as always :D
This is sort of a hot take, but I think Monks are best when the proverbial sh*t hits the fan. I see some people use a sort of 'null void' type situation where everything is laid out, and the party comes into a situation on their terms. Monks seem to be best for when things don't go smooth. They seem (the few times I've played or GM'd them) an incredibly reactive class that deals well in imperfect situations. Stunning Strike lets the Monk pull back control from the monsters. Stun the thing harassing the Wizard, etc. I think of Ki more like Edge in Shadowrun, where you use it to push yourself harder in order to get the advantage back.
There is some truth to this, but the alternative from the caster or half-caster is to use a higher lvl spell than they normally would, which is more often than not going to do more to regain control of the situation. Of the following, which do you think has a higher chance of actually happening in a situation the players are caugt unaware?
1) The Ranger was planning on sticking to Hunter's Mark because it is a cheap way to scale dmg, but ended up casting Spike Growth instead and inflicted 139 dmg and wasted 6 actions on dashing across all enemies without a ranged option that were forced to move through the difficult terrain
2) The Monk wins initiative and stun 1 enemy before running out of ki that is a big enough deal in the encounter the change the balance on its own.
You, Treantmonk, and my playtesting so far have me pretty convinced that I'm not out of line to give Monk an extra ASI (like Rogue), and bonus Ki equal to their Wisdom modifier.
Before giving them bonus ki I'd look at the number of short rests you're taking. From what I've seen too many people ignore short rests. There's several classes that want a short rest for some reason: bard, cleric, fighter, monk, paladin, wizard, and warlock. Wizard it's thing is only 1 short rest per day but, I'd have to double check the crafting rules, a short rest can be used to work on scribing spell scrolls and I think it's enough time for a first level spell scroll
@@tomraineofmagigor3499 ALL PCs should want short rests because they don't want to DIE. Instead of assuming that my parties don't take short rests, consider how mind-numbingly easy your games must be such that players don't even worry about Hit Dice.
@@Spyger279 yes I've talked to my DM about it before and I still end up with one encounter adventuring days. I'm the optimizer of the group and it can get pretty boring
@@tomraineofmagigor3499 Awww, that's a bummer, my dude. Has your DM considered using the Gritty Realism rule?
@@Spyger279 got a wild magic sorcerer in the group without attack spells and instead of using their one attacking cantrip they went in and used a dagger. Honestly just not a good group for optimizers. My point still stands it's far too common groups ignore short rests or have one encounter days. I tried dming my group and half of them freaked out when I threw stirges at them. One of them stayed calm and had cast sleep making them all go "oh. That's not bad at all" I literally had to explain to them the point that yes the encounter looked bad but it was settled with one spell making the point of the encounter the use of the spell slot and that'll effect decisions as encounters get harder not cause the monsters get harder but because resources dwindle. You can tweak a one monster encounter all you want but unless you change the rules of how the action economy works you either get simple or impossible as the only options for the fight if resources aren't first dwindled
Stunning video Kobold keep up the great work and enjoy your weekend!
You too!
That pun
Won't know the opinion until tomorrow since I can't see the video until the public release, but I'll give my opinion on the ability:
Stunning Strike is the best ability from Monk, but is also a red herring. The saving throw is Constitution, the saving throw that creatures in 5e, on average, have the highest bonus towards. It uses your Ki Save DC, which requires a Wisdom investment, which is important for a monk if you want high AC, but it is arguable whether or not it's more optimal to pump Wisdom, or to pump Constitution for more HP. It costs a ki point, and of course it does; the skill would be broken if it was just passive. But. With the other factors I mention, this can prove to be a ki point sink, with you dumping 2 or more ki per turn just trying to get a stun to stick with no guarantee that it will. For some subclasses, dumping ki into this skill is fine, but many require your ki for their main features which makes using this skill akin to a trick to get you to spend all your resources. Sure, you can choose which monsters to use and to not use this skill on depending on whether or not you know if they have a good Con bonus, and you can test the waters with 1 ki point spent. If it works on the first try, it gives your other attacks, and your allies attacks, advantage for the turn. It's a great skill when it works immediately, and can shut down enemies. But in my experience playing monk (and it's my favorite class, so I play it a lot), I find that using it is very rarely a good option unless you are desperate or you are certain you have a good likelihood of success.
In my opinion, the skill should be a once per turn ability that is free when you hit with an unarmed strike, and it should be a more forgiving saving throw than Constitution. It would give monk the utility to use it each turn, but not trick newer players into dumping all their ki into a skill that might not even work. Again, it's the best ability for monk, but it's also designed in a deceptive way that makes it worse than it appears to be. This does not change the fact that it's still good, just only when you really know how and when to use it.
Way of the astral self helps with the wis problem, and playing treatmonk improved monk is good aswell because you get some uses that don't punish you with burning all ki in a blink of an eye
@@joaoluizmoraesgomes7778 The problem with Astral self is that most of the time you're not using Wis for your attack and damage rolls, not even while you have your spirit arms up :-/
I don't think I'm a fan of "one free stun a turn" angle. An unlucky monster is liable to get stunned for multiple rounds at no cost.
I think it would be better to say "spend 1 key point, all attacks you make stun on failed save until the end of your turn" making it better at breaking through the poor DC and high saves of Con
Really loved this video
A grapple also ends if the grappler is stunned! Also a non intuitive find in the rules…
This is where I get all my power gamer info.
I can't tell if my monk fix is pretty straight forward or completely convoluted. I basically took the monk from the original Final Fantasy Tactics videogame and made all it's moves the base monk kit.
Basically the healing trick from Tasha's, most subclass ki point abilities, and stunning strike are unchanged. They can also cast lesser restoration for 1 ki point.
Monks can dodge, dash, or disengage as a bonus action. No ki points.
Flurry of blows loses the key point cost and becomes "As an action, roll your martial arts dice. Make a number of unarmed strikes against an adjacent target equal to the number rolled."
They also get a single hit 30 foot ranged attack, and a 20 foot line ground pound. Both are actions, cost no ki, and deal martial arts dice damage.
The videogame monk also had a death strike, but that's covered by the open hand monk capstone.
Another scenario stunning strike is useful for: hostage situations. Monks typically roll higher initiative than casters, so they often act first in a round. They have enough movement speed to make up for the range disadvantage, most of the time, too. If you're fighting a creature that's holding a commoner hostage, who they'll attack (and certainly kill) on their first round in combat, it's better to have a 5th level monk with Stunning Strike than a 5th level caster with Hold Person (or especially Web, since the creature can still attack), because of the following:
1. Higher initiative. The monk will move first more often than the caster will, thanks to their high Dexterity score, so there's a better chance he acts before the baddie.
2. Better Chance to Hit. With Flurry of Blows and Extra Attack, the monk has 4 opportunities to stun, and only has to spend his ki when he actually hits his target. With 5 ki points at 5th level, spending 1 for Flurry of Blows, this almost guarantees the stun will land, as the monk can attempt a stun for every one of his 4 hits that round.
3. Recovering Ki on a Short Rest. Unlike a non-warlock caster's spell slots, monks can recover their ki in a short rest, meaning that - if you get to short rest between each encounter - your monk can use all their ki every single encounter. Additionally, although it's not a lot of healing, Quickened Healing from Tasha's allows the monk to expend unused ki points before a short rest to heal up, so they'll be able to negate some of the damage they take during combat.
Hostage situations happen all the time in official modules. (Spoilers for Lost Mine of Phandelver) It's honestly a shame that LMoP, which features at least 3 separate hostage situations, and other occurrences with non-combat NPCs present in combat, ends at 5th level, when the monk actually gets this ability.
Lastly, although it's not optimal, if you really want to lean into stunning strike for single boss encounters, the subclass that gets the most use out of it is Way of the Astral Self. It'll firmly cement you as a close-to-medium-range combatant, though. You get to use Wisdom for your attack rolls for 10 minutes at the cost of a ki point, you get extra reach for these attack rolls, you'll never have disadvantage to hit due to darkness, you can plot how to save a hostage with your teammate without letting the enemy know what you're saying, and lastly (though this is late level), you get extra damage, elemental resistance, and AC in melee - complete with a third attack action bringing your total hits per round that can activate stunning strike up to 5. Not recommended unless you're a fan of Jojo's, though.
My chronurgy wizard has +13 to initiative, and at 14th level can force a target to fail a save. Can subtle cast hold monster with metamagic adept
Monks don't get ANYTHING special for initiative. Do they scale better with dex? Sure, but then you have a weaker stun. War wizard and chronurgy gets bonus to initiative equal to their int. Bladesingers ger increased movement speed and scales well with dex. All of them have access to wizard spells that can give them better mobility, damage and cc. But you don't need any of that, in a hostage situation you just cast vortex warp and its automatically solved.
Also, bringing up that hostage situations happen a lot in modules them giving an example of one that cannot apply because they don't go 5th level is kinda retarded. Unless you meant to be playing devils advocate, but I really don't think you need to
Ah, I haven't yet purchased Strixhaven or Explorer's Guide to Wildemount. I shall go through these books soon.
@@MyLittlePonyTheater I'd recommend it, lots of cool stuff in those books.
Stunning strike is pretty good if you can get the wisdom to start, such as with rolling stats, and if you pick your battles.
Kobold also gives advantage
Hey, just wanted to say I've been seeing you pop up as a reference off of RUclips. On Reddit or other D&D forums this week I've been seeing a lot of "oh kobold did a video about that" or "I think pack tactics has a video explaining it." I even saw someone say "that little blue guy who loves conjure animals."
You're unofficially an official source for theorycraft.
Good, contextual description of MAD.
Remember guys: Paralyzed>Stunned>Restrained.
Each of these conditions give advantage on the affected target with slight variations.
The way I generally like to buff stunning strike is I take the fey touched feat with my monks. You get a +1 to wisdom which helps, misty step which is great on a monk, and you can get silvery barbs to force disadvantage on their con save
I think those are good recommendations. I tend to use them on my high level monk on my boss fights where I've managed not to burn much ki beforehand. It's niche. But it happens from time to time. And it can be very effective, especially with BBEGs who do large amounts of AoE damage if they get their turn.
it's interesting watching these, as I'm a DM for a party of six, and somehow, the party is lacking a proper caster. We have a Paladin and a Ranger, that's the closest we have, but aside from that, we have a fighter, a rogue, a barbarian, and a monk, all of whom have chosen against casting subclasses.
it's made things... interesting
I've had a high level Way of the Open Hand Monk completely shut down 2 equal level casters in the first turn of combat.
Honestly i would love to see the Monks have a 2 tier system for features, a cool down ki less version for all of them and a Ki fuelled version, for Example Flurry of Blows/Double Strike, When you use Ki you can make 2 extra unarmed strikes as a bonus Action or use NO ki for double strike you can do 1 extra unarmed strike as a bonus action. or Patient defence No ki you can use the Dodge action as a Bonus action on your turn, Ki fuelled you can spend 1 ki point to add your proficiency bonus to your AC
Well I can give at least one scenario where stun is stronger than just killing something: When you have to catch it. While many spellcasters have some method of disabling a target at range, monk has a couple of neat details that make them pretty good at fulfilling a (albeit niche) role in a party comp in the form of the "Kidnapper". Monk gets the most consistently high speed out of any class in the game, and if they get the chance to catch up to a fleeing target and stun them it makes capturing that target almost guaranteed. Combine it with (or don't, some times all you need is) an Athletics trained grapple and you can just take off with some poor enemy. Monk may not be a great sustain tank but it can dodge tank for long enough against one foe for your party to deal with less enemies and then just sweep up the rest with you. This Kidnapper role is niche but it is quite rare to do well in this game, especially without magic.
Unless you're running a strength based monk (dunno why you would) your grapple is going to be low because you'll be having 8-10 strength, since you need Dex, Con AND Wis to be a monk. Not to mention web and entangle just stopping people in their tracks.
I have a question is there a sub class that can change savings throw types It might be only for there own spells but it would be fun to work with
the idea of a monk burning legendary resistances is the one I love the most, imagine a lv17 or so party, so when the boss happen to have legendary resistances, they can either force it on a stunning strike or risking to instantly die because of the Open hand in the room, son now the party can do 200 or so damage when just one stunning strike hits, well that is a way to put the rope against said boss
"Isn't DEATH better than STUN?!"
Something about the way this was said and emphasized made me laugh really hard lol. Great video, dood!
Man, I would LOVE to see Pack Tactics discussing Pathfinder 2e builds
I've been thinking about it but there isn't an audience for it.
Great vid, comment for algorithm :)
The way he says Data made me smile lol
Smile, or facepalm? And melee?
@@willjcus a little of both lol
One thing I do at my table with monk and Sorcerer is giving per level 1.5 (rounded down) of their resource to them.
I'm sure these videos are focused solely without magic items in mind, but I think something a lot of people have overlooked is the Dragonhide Belts in Fizban's that tried to offset the MADness of Monk.
The Dragonhide Belt+1 reads "This finely detailed belt is made of dragonhide. While wearing it, you gain a +1 bonus to the saving throw DCs of your ki features. In addition, you can use an action to regain ki points equal to a roll of your Martial Arts die. You can't use this action again until the next dawn." There's two more levels of this that increase the bonus up to +3. The Ki recovery isn't the best, but my big emphasis is the +1~3 DCs. I've had an idea milling about in my head for years running a tanky STR Barb/Monk multi class and this item makes the build seem less like a nightmare to make effective. Definitely looking forward to a chance to play it out and begging politely for these items.
casters get items that raise their DC's aswell and the caster Dc is naturally higher because they aren't MAD. Also caster have range and more damage
I made stunning strike lose the need to use ki to use the feature and made it a # of times equal to your PB. Allowing them to use their ki for other actions and it also restricts the amount of times they can use it per short rest
Neat bonus to Stun strike, you can do basically the same thing as the gunk of attacking twice with a weapon as action and then one more weapon attack as b.a. but hey you also have a chance of stunning and with Dedicated Weapon you might be doing those attacks with a longsword or Warhammer, maybe even a magic one at higher levels.
I give monks "recover one ki point on a critical" and it enhanced the experience a lot.
Features like this are great and it makes me wonder whether it should be a class or a subclass feature.
Recommended fix for Stunning Fist. When you choose to use stunning fist, you can choose to convert all the damage DEALT (not rolled) with your attack to increase the DC of your stun.
Ah yes DC 32. Hell no. Stun is a strong condition
A little strong on monks with flat damage increases. Great Weapon Master isn't available, but things like Charger, Aasimar's Celestial Revelation, and Goblin's Fury of the Small can all add onto damage and make the DC super high. Especially if you use the old version of Goblin that added its level instead of its proficiency bonus.
@@normal6483 First the monk has to hit, then they have to spend a Ki point, then the enemy has to fail it. After all that, the stun only lasts 1 round and its against a single opponent who takes no damage from the attack. BBEGs usually have legendary saves to get out of it. I dont think its too strong considering the vast majority of players who play monk dont go for large single damage dealing attacks.
@@semadamadipirior8111 That's because there's no benefit to doing so - if doing so made the saving throw impossible to succeed against without Legendary Resistance, they absolutely would. If you miss you don't waste a ki point, and if you can pump the damage to increase the DC then enemies failing their save is a non-issue. In fact, by allowing monks to focus on purely their attack stat, (usually Dex,) this would make missing less of an issue, especially if you use something like Fury of the Small or Aasimar's Celestial Revelation since those can be applied after a hit.
The highest modifier currently in the bestiary is +19 for the Aspect of Tiamat and Aspect of Bahamut, meaning the highest possible roll is 39.
Assuming you have 10 Wis your DC at level 20 would start at DC 14. An average punch would deal 1d10+5, for an average of 10.5, raising the DC to 24. Fury of the Small would add 20 damage and raise this to 44, making it so even the highest Con save in the game cannot pass.
Even without Fury of the Small, other sources of damage increase are possible. Charger adds +5. Aasimar Celestial Revelation adds your Proficiency bonus for +6. A +3 weapon adds +3, while even a mere Flametongue adds 2d6 for an average of +6. The Gloves of Soul-Catching add 2d10, for an average of +11. And what if magic gets involved? A Hexblade or Genie warlock dip can get you Hex for 1d6 or about +3.5 and add your proficiency bonus or another +6. Holy Weapon from an ally adds 2d8 or about +9 and Enlarge adds 1d4 or about +2.5. So many sources of damage increase exist in the game and the more you stack onto your attacks the more you can force enemies to fail their saves. Stunned for 1 round is brutal, especially since you can keep pounding it in round after round. The more likely the save is to land, the few ki points you have to spend activating it, so the cost diminished in turn.
@@normal6483 A lot of what you suggest is multiclassing which, IMO, only optimizers and powergamers normally do in 5e. And I never account for level 20 in these sorts of things because, AFAIK, only 1% of games ever get close to lvl 20. So let's design this around the 1% of 1% for the level 20 powergamers. Just restrict the DC increase by dividing it by 5. So for every 5 damage they would have done, it increases the DC by +1 and they can only do it for a single target per round.
Epic video
I love stunning strike. I had a game where there was a Caster boss with minions. I got right up to him, activated Stunning Blow, the rest of my attacks that turn got advantage then burned another Ki to use Patient Defense and just, Neo matrix dodged all his minions attacks. Then on my next turn, I just flurry of blows, all attacks with advantage because the stun doesn't end until the *end* of your turn. That plus some ranged attacks from my allies took him down, felt oh so satisfying.
Pack Tactics points out the obvious issue between dex and wis for monks on point buy.
*Astral Monks* and weirdos who use *Shillelagh* with monks for whatever reason: Laughing in Wisdom to hit.
Part of the problem is that monks still need DEX for AC. You can wear armor, but then you lose Martial Arts and Unarmored Speed. A tortle could work, I suppose.
@@Greywander87 and at that point you’re building master oogway
@@Greywander87 The Best AC is not being a Target to begin with.
Im playing a Barbonk at lvl 9 (3 Barbarian 6 Monk). And stunning strike is a huge favor in my turn. Which i use as my BA attack after my 1st turn BA is entering rage if needed in fight. But i use stunning strike only 1 time if they make the save i dont try again right away. But i limit once per combat as I'm normally after the heavy hit enemy as i chose ancestors Barbarian subclass. So even if i hit in rage attackers have DISADV on attacks on everyone but me. So i play a front-liner that can stunn, protect and deal damage all in one
another small thing stunning strike has going for it is how few creatures are immune to that condition, pretty much only swarms cannot be stunned. Compare this to the direct upgrade condition of paralyzed, which much more creatures ARE immune to, and especially the ones that you want to shut down. For example, the caster calling upon powerful arcane energy cannot use hold monster to stop either a lich or a terrasque, but both are very vulnerable to a well-timed swift kick to the groin.
my favourite moment when i played monk was probably when I was playing as a fairy monk. my dm allowed a homebrew tiny race of fairies which gave dex. so I made a character called Zaar Wurldo who had crazy stealth and innate magic for invisibility which made un basically unseeable to the naked eye.
so I partner up with another player who was a bard to act as their "body guard" when I went around the battle field unseen to use fury of blows to throw them dozens of feet away out of nowhere as 4 giant fist marks appear on my opponents as they get stunned for a round. best fucking feeling ever
Hey tact pactics whats your opinion on animate dead? Is it worth while or should I take a different 3rd level spell?
It depends but overall, good spell. Its a little annoying for roleplay. That in itself might be a highlight for you because its story telling, you know? Its really easy to collect dead chickens and turn them into skeleton archers rules as written.
@@PackTactics I love that
@@PackTactics thanks
@@PackTactics doesn't the spell specify Humanoid corpse?
Also, animate dead is great for Help action on skills. Any spell with permanent effect is worth considering usually. And Skeletons are very portable, just put it in an ossuary except when you need an extra pair of hands. Or slap magic mouth on the corpse with a few trigger phrases before animating and stick Mr Speak-n-Zomb in full plate or other full-body disguise.
Combat use? Eh they die pretty quick, and humanoid corpses get inconvenient to acquire as you fight more and more monsters instead of bandits. Much better as lackeys than fodder.
@@dragonboyjgh It does not. It only specifies Humanoid corpses if you're making zombies. For skeletons (which are the better option), you only need any pile of bones.
That said, it makes sense to house rule that you need bone piles from humanoids, but even then, all you need is Fabricate and some calcium.
Good way to buff stunning strike is if an enemy is incapacitated they don't gain AC from thier Dex bonus. Kinda makes since cause they can't move. Now the enemy is easier to hit for the rest of the party and would be even more worth it against a boss ( if it gains AC from Dex).
Great video kobold! I have a question , do you share Treantmonks point of view that the monk is the weakest class in the game?
No. Well. Depends. Like he's correct about Monks using fists and stuff, thats the worst class in the game but hes wrong with Gunks and SS/CBE Monks. Those Range Monks are much more viable than a barbarian for example so overall, Monks aren't the worst class in the game but at the same time its a very bad class.
@@PackTactics Thank you for answering! I love your videos, you've been an great inspiration :D
I'm going to leverage your team building angle. Automatically failing dex saves and strength saves can be huge, and advantage on attacks, likewise.
The thing about Ki is that you only need to use one point at a time. If you stun on the first hit, then you don't have to try to stun after that and you burn the ki, and if it doesn't work, you aren't shit out of luck, but still have 2-3 more attempts to get it to land, depending on how desperate the situation is. Everyone blows their load like Ki is infinite, but really, they need to ration that out like Warlocks and their spellslots.
1:12 YES YES YES this is a problem I often find with the PHB. You need to check rules in several chapters for one ruling.
If you don't like going into melee to stunning strike I recommend playing as a bugbear since they have a 10ft punch on their turn if you perfer more range I recommend grabbing a whip for more reach now you can stunning strike someone then immediately start gunning them down with your gunk build
unfortunately, stunning strike HAS to be an unarmed strike. The bugbear reach works, but a whip wouldn't. However, astral self monk gives you a pair of astral arms that can make unarmed strikes from 10 feet away, and they work off of wisdom. Astral Self also completely shifts the Monk meta into an SAD class with the astral arms using Wisdom as their attack stat. It costs a ki point at initial activation, but it more than makes up for it in the other benefits it provides you. (You're hitting just as often as if you were using Dex, but still have the Wisdom to bump up that save DC!)
DM’s hate stunning strike cuz it often makes boss encounters trivial.
Can you make a few videos introducing people to 3.5?
If you cant take actions or reactions while stunned does that mean you can take bonus actions? Or by actions do they mean both non-bonus and bonus
I think this video is great as it highlights what I think is the two biggest problem with the Monk class.
* Stunning Strike has been quoted multiple times by multiple people as the reason why Monks just can't be as good as other martial classes. And yet it really is the make-believe monster under the bed for the exact reason stated. It is contested by CON which is already overinflated on far too many monsters, its DC is determined by a secondary stat for Monks, not its primary. It requires melee on a class that as pointed out in other videos, does not actually thrive in many melee situations and of course, devours Ki which brings me to my next point...
* EVERYTHING a Monk does costs Ki. Monks need Ki for virtually every class ability worth a damn. You want that mobility Monks are supposed to be good at? That will cost you. You want that Dodge as a bonus action so you explode slightly slower in melee? That will cost you. Want to throw out an extra unarmed attack that will still put you behind the curve compared to the damage output of other martial classes? That will cost you. Want to actually use your subclass abilities? Oh you better believe that is going to cost you. You haemorrhage Ki like lunatic with a gut wound and virtually every trick up your sleeves takes resources from the exact same pool.
Sure, you get them back on a short rest but so do a lot of classes. A Battle Master Fighter gets his superiority dice back on a short rest too, for example. But a Battle Master who runs out of those dice still has cards to play. He has a better AC, better hit die, still has access to Action Surge, Second Wind and Indominable and an extra base attack if he is lv 11 or higher. And just throwing out basic attacks, he is sure as hell going to out damage a Monk without Ki unless the Battle Master is armed with a bath towel.
All in all, I think this video just goes to show how fundamentally lousy the Monk class is even at its core mechanics. While not the only class like this, at least some others got a patch-job via potent and competitive subclasses. Monk didn't even get that.
Can you make a video explaining how Spellslots work when you multiclass 2 casters and when to decide if it's better to go straight or to multiclass?
That's easy. When you multiclass 2 full casters your spell slot progression is unchanged. When should you multiclass? That's not easy to answer. I do it when I get a particular magic I want for a combo or strategy.
For Half-casters is kinda annoying to explain, but use the spell slot calculator and you will understand it.
The players handbook has a multiclassing section where it explains it but I'll do my best to summarize. When you multiclass two casters you add all your levels and there's a chart that explains how many slots you have. Half casters (paladin, ranger and artificer) use half your level and eldritch knight and arcane trickster use 1/3 your level (rounded down I believed). Spells known are done separately, so maybe you can learn 4 wizard spells and 2 sorcerer.
As for when and when not to multiclass is really up to your character, build, and campaign. I personally love multiclassing and PC's will almost always be strong but you can't reverse it once done so put a little thought before you do it.
Sorry for the wall of text and I hope this helped you.
@@chatyxd6078 for the artificer you round up, because wizards was having a laugh
@@Ahamaga It's probably because Artificers are the only half caster with level-1 spellcasting. The others start at level 2.
@@AnaseSkyrider that actually makes sense
I really love Monks for some reason, but most people say they are kinda sucky. I don't know where i saw this, actually i think it was here in Pack Tactics, but the way I fix my Monks is making them not a skirmisher but a Duelist/assassin with huge movement and different defenses like evasin etc. and I achieve that by giving them an ability at level 1 that uses wisdom instead of con for hp that way they can mostly ignore con and not be a piece of paper.
I played stunning strike monk in my old campaign.. had 2 rogues in the team who got free sneak attacks every round when i stunned them. was super fun.
I am playing a Bugbear Astral Self monk, which allows me to maximize Wisdom instead of Dexterity. That with the combine reach from the racial bonus and astral self I am playing a monk that can avoid going into real melee. I have been using stunning strike to shutdown one enemy per combat. A Ki point to avoid a full turn of a enimie and gain advantage feels worth it.
I could absolutely be remembering wrong and or it doesn't change anything but doesn't stunning strike last until the end of you next turn?
So it lasts almost 2 turns IF you land it. Plus the other turns between which you totally mentioned.
This is why I actually like the Astral Monk. Wis attacks, Wis DC. Best stunner.
Monk time!
Here is a build that might optimize stunning strike.
Astral self uses wisdom for attacks.
Rabbit folk adds PB to initiative.
Do you think this will solve some of the problems?
Astral Self is so violently bad that this doesn't really fix anything
You have to spend 1 ki point every encounter to get the arms that use WIS. Might as well just stunning strike again.
@@cephelos1098 compared to the other monks, it's not that bad. It's one ki for 10 minutes. So it's only 1 ki fewer than a base monk and you can have a higher DC without sacrificing "to hit"
I am only looking at the 3rd level abilities. Since he had focused on level 5.
@@AnaseSkyrider according to the video, he is burning all his ki in one fight. I am using that as a baseline for my reasoning.
@@dragonhearthx8369 At that point all you're doing is picking a subclass that effectively puts you 1 or more levels behind other monks (depending on your encounters per day) in your ki availability just so you can gain a couple extra points on your DC and then have more feat availability to spend on weak feats since monks have almost no great feats.
Mobile is less useful since you have reach with your arms. You can't do any powerhouse combos like the Shadow Monk's devil sight + darkness. Crusher is an okay feat. Feats to get spells like Silvery Barbs are one use per long rest, not really game-changing.
Could set them up for a Disintegrate spell too
The main reason I think stunning strike is bad is because aside from the awful ki consumption that's inherent to all Monk does the best targets for it are the hardest to use it on. Obviously it's bad vs multiple targets because it's single target, but against single enemies that enemy will likely have high hp to compensate, as such they will have a high con score and likely proficiency in con saves due to concentration or flavour endurance. I don't think burning legendary resistance is a good tactical option either as for casters you mostly want to avoid spells that give them a save anyway in those cases and otherwise you're using all your resources to not get anything anyway and dealing damage is just better. The sad part is when looking to homebrew Monk rules I wouldn't change stunning strike because con save makes sense and it should cost a resource to cc enemies, but because ki is such a poor resource and stunning strike is often monks best use of ki it makes Monk seem underwhelming.
There used to be a table for monks taking a new vow to gain more ki during advancement, I think it was pathfinder, but something that would be really nice just as a standard concept in making your monk. Monks used to be known for the vow they adhered to. In gameplay, it gave ki hungry monks the ability to keep up with everyone else in the party.
That's Pathfinder. Monk wasn't great in PF either with it's BAB and many other issues, and Monk Unchained broke compatibility with a lot of archetypes. But it was super fun to make it work and could do some pretty interesting things.
Pack Tactics discussing to hit percentage vs failed saving throw percentage: "There's an ability score problem here."
Way of the Astral Self: _"I missed the part where that's my problem."_
Just me or should Ki points ALSO come from your wisdom mod or proficiency? Having the same amount of Ki points as your level is kinda "meh".
👍🏻
Another way to reduce the ki cost would be to make stunning strike affect all attacks until the beginning of your next turn, in other words, every attack you make including reactions have a chance to activate it all for 1 ki, but this doesn't fix the problem with ki in general
Well, not sure if anyone mentioned this, but if you have a monk and someone that can hex in the party- the hexer can force disadvantage on con saves. Sure you are wasting a turn to set up, but against a boss, well you are going to take a turn or two to set up anyway.
Wasting a turn on hex here is not worth it.
How to play a monk.
Go Barbarian and Rogue as a multiclass. 2 in rogue (Or 3 if you want arcane trickster) rest in barbarian.
Congrats your 1 level behind the monk in class feature progression for a little bit, but you have 4 more AC, twice the hp, features that actually turn the tide of battle, more skills, more RP hooks, and you can disengauge as a bonus action without needing to spend a limited resource.
No downside at all considering most of Monk’s features are too situational at early levels and the great ones too late to get at all😂
It is worth mentioning that an open hand monk can use a flurry of blows attack to make an opponent prone if they fail a dex save, which they will automatically if they're stunned. This will give triple advantage on any melee attack for a whole round. Even the casters could just use shocking grasp on their turn with a ×3 chance to crit. A level 5 party could easily kill an archmage in 1 round if the initiative is good. Especially considering the monk has 4 chances to stun on their first turn. And even if they do blow their load on turn 1, there might not even be a turn 2 to worry about.
That's... not how advantage works. It doesn't stack.
@40Found you are correct. I haven't been playing for very long and the group I play with stacks advantage. I was quite surprised when I found out that wasn't raw😅
“It’s fine to blow them all”
- 8:00 Kobold 2022
What about shillelagh if you take shillelagh via a multi-class or feat it would allow you to focus on increasing your wisdom and therefore increase your ki save DC as well as your attack rolls. Granted it does require a bonus action to activate so you likely won't be using martial arts or flurry of blows the first round. But if you ask me a quarter staff + shillelagh + polearm master is probably more optimal. One of the major weaknesses of the Monk is that the Monk is MAD (multi-atribute dependent) but if you can use wisdom as your attack modifier you depend a lot more on a single attribute. Obviously you don't want to neglect your Dexterity but you can increase your Wisdom and still scale fairly well.
I'm watching this again later today. You deserve the ad revenue, and I fell like I need to watch again just to let it soak in. I have a player with a backup monk player, and am trying to figure out if it needs balanced to make the player feel they're contributing.
Incapacitated creates also auto fail to resist grapple checks. Stun, grapple, throw into the Wizards' Wall of Fire. It will take immediate damage, and then end its turn in the wall.
I do have a question, so in this video, and many other videos, you express that range is better than melee. I agree with you, most monsters don't have ranged attacks, and therefore you can attack without being in danger most of the time. However there is a question I have for you. In your games and in these examples that you are talking about, do you track ammunition? I only ask, because to me that is part of the balance of range vs melee, that melee puts you in danger more but with range you only have so many attacks because of ammunition. Many always make the argument of RAW for almost everything, but yet ignore parts of raw such as encumbrance, tracking ammunition, food and water, spell components (V,S,M). Tracking ammo, food and water, spell components, encumbrance... all of those things aren't optional technically speaking, they are part of the basic standard rules aka RAW. Maybe you do track ammo, but if you don't then I think it's not a fair comparison anymore. Same with everything else, those parts of the game exist for a reason. To ignore them but then make the assumption that things like multiclass and feats are a given when technically those that are optional rules, to me is strange. Not being judgmental btw, your video's are full of info and help me in various aspects of the game, I just want to know if you take into account all the rules when talking about RAW and optimization because if you aren't taking them into account, how might it affect a truly RAW game? Thanks, great videos btw!
Ammo isn't a big drawback though. You can recover half of it after each fight. You get 20 for 1gp and they only weigh 1lb. Comparitively a greatsword is 6lbs so you can have 120 arrows and recover half after each fight for 6gp and not be weighed down more than a greatsword. We'll ignore the 50gp cost because starter equipment. Meanwhile when we look at spell components, again you just use starter equipment via an arcane focus. Some have a material cost, but a lot of the best spells don't. For Verbal RAW the only thing I can think of is a spell. I don't think there's a martial maneuver that can silence a creature. For S, there's no counter to this that doesn't apply to melee combat. Grappling doesn't prevent this. You need to apply a condition that just stops actions in general. like stunning or incapacitating. Material components are where you're going to have an easier time shutting down a caster than a martial. You could disarm them and take their focus, and since they're investing in their spell DC they're less likely to pass a strength or acrobatics check. However for this to work, you need to have a free hand to prevent the caster just picking it up for free. So you can't use a shield or two handed weapon.
In both cases, there is technically an advantage to melee, but that advantage is negligible compared to all the advantages being at a range has over melee and casting has over martial.
@@NightWing1800 thank you for your perspective. I feel like there is more to it at times given how many variables come up in d&d, and of course interpretation of certain rules compared to rules as intended. For example a question in practicality is how many quivers can you have on your body at once. Things like that. I know there is a magic item that holds more than 20 arrows and it also holds spears, rods and javelin. So is that Item useless cause you can hold 6 quivers anyway. Stuff like the bag of holding takes a full action to take out an item. Not sure if you get what I mean. But thank you for your input :)
@@rodentowl9415 Thats fair, but are you making 20 attacks in a combat? With Crossbow Expert getting 3 attacks thats 6 rounds before you see any penalty assuming you only have one quiver of 20 arrows. Then you can refill it OoC.
@@NightWing1800 The party could be in a dungeon, low level (so less money, resources, no bag of hold etc.) and they go from encounter to encounter and run out of arrows by the boss or by a couple of the encounters later. I know you mentioned they can recover half their arrows, is that a rule somewhere that I missed or what your group does?
@@rodentowl9415 Page 146 of the PHB. Takes 1 minute.
and I buy that you'd have limited ability to carry more than one quiver at a time in a way that lets you actually use it, but there's not really a situation I can think of that would limit you to 1 quiver over the course of an adventure. At the very least it'd be niche and would be vastly outweighed by the benefits of just not being in melee combat. You can store your back up quivers with your bedroll and what not. You can have your friends carry quivers on their backs. There's plenty of ways to have a quiver on hand even if you have no bag of holding, horse or cart.
And again, it's 1gp. That's the same price as a night at the inn, and also very much less than it would cost for a wizard to add scrolls to their spellbook or for a caster to craft scrolls or the party in general to buy healing potions. In what world are we saying that a fight or a ranger cant afford 5 gold pieces? It's a negligible cost.
omg, ty for pointing out how the Incapacitated Condition in the Appendix doesn't just outright way that it ends Concentration! Edit: Wait, are you basically saying Stunning Strike is a waste of KI? Is it a trap?
I didn't say that. I said it was ok but it has so many things going against it.
Stunning strike is a fun clutch ability. When it succeeds with an organized team they can take advantage of it.
As someone who plays monks a lot, I feel like the design space of Stunning Strike is a big pitfall. It's either useless or it's too good and it burns through resources way too fast. Consequently it takes up space in the monk kit they could have been allocated to more useful abilities like bigger hit die, higher AC, or more ASI so they could afford feats.
About a year ago I talked to my DM and traded away Stunning Strike for a d10 hit die and Open Palm Techniques and it was a huge improvement! I had enough HP to properly survive as a front line character, I my Ki lasted way longer and while I had a lot more options in combat, and most of all my character felt more like a Martial artist that allowed combat encounters to have a narrative more interesting than "I hit the monster, the monster wasn't stunned. The monster hit me."
When you have a level 1 dwarf walk up, enlarge himself, and grapple a dragon down in a round breaking the module.. youll be looking foward to near free stuns as an option.
Hey Kobold! If I'm playing a Dao Warlock, and I have to choose only 1 EB invocation, should I choose Agonizing for the damage, or Repelling for the control and spike Growth synergy?
if you can get spike growth up consistently id go for repelling
A comment full of kinetic energy
The weird thing about stunning strike is if there is any way to "skip" your turns this means the duration increases in RAW.
Yet on the flipside if you make turns more common it is possible to make stunning strike literally end.
It is a weird wording which makes no sense in actuality, though DnD might lack the tools to pull either.
i have been summoned by the magic words pillars of eternity
playing poe is what thought me control is king
Viability of shillelagh, PAM and kensei monk?
My group plays short rests as at least one hour and long rests as at least one week. I can’t stress enough the equalizing effect this has between long rest classes and short rest classes.
I think the stunning strike is best used with teamwork.
There are other abilities, and spells, that put disadvantage on saving throws. Even con saving throws. Example, Wrathful Smite.
Against legendary resistances the solution is to use spells that demands ability checks rather than saves like maze or telekinesis. Or no saves like force cage. Or use a buff like bless or polymorph. Or use a summon. Like conjure animals. Lots of ways to bypass saves
Not only that but Casters have better ways to improve those chances
Like In your example, I can use telekinesis, my roll was sadly too low, but wait! I’m a Sorcerer and have the Magical Guidance feature, since it’s a check that I clearly failed, I can reroll it to get a better number, but sadly, the boss rolled a high number regardless…. silvery Barb time! Finally he fails the check, he gets restrained, and I use the advantage part for myself to give advantage on the next check I have to make to keep them restrained. The best of all of this is that since I used an action to restrain rather than a spell, I can quicken another spell.
Monks don’t have that option, they are just… stunbots 😭
@@cattiston374 telekinesis is probably better on a bard though. they add half their proficiency to the roll plus silvery barbs plus bardic inspiration.