Yet again great video! I have a few questions from the point of view of a noob that hasn't played the game in 10 years doing hardcore as a pally. First I know I need to hit 60 first before thinking about raiding but I want to prepare myself now with the knowledge now. My first question is would you suggest putting one talent point in the Kings Blessing? My second question is in hardcore which type of paladin healing would be more useful in raiding? Rank one healing or the parsing healing? Bro thank you for taking the time to create these videos. It was a dense information that I needed. Also is there any other place we can follow you or donate to?
Keep your money to yourself. The kings answer = NO. Kings is kind of bad, it only increases stats gained from gear by 10% not ALL stats by 10% so its more like 6% stat gain. What's worse is that ALL the paladins not watching my videos take kings so no point in you taking it. You also have Sanctuary which is RARE for paladins to have so that will be the blessing you use. Raids have 5-6 paladins. One of them will have kings. What kind of HEALING paladin you will be get determined by the other paladins in your raid. You want about 50/50 or 33/66% split, Rank 1/ Parsers. If you want to be a parser you have to take 5/5 Holy Power for the crit and Holy Shock (its a heal while you move). Rule is basically if you want to parse = be a parser. If you don't care about parsing DO NOT be a parser. HELP the parsers parse by sacrificing your own healing and they will love you for it.
@@pallytime2156 Thanks for all this info! I might just do the rank 1, so I have a better chance of getting into raids. Your videos have been a great help. Keep up the great work!
would be nice if you add that wowhead profile for talents + items for paladin newbies :D so we can read the item stuff :D also if we are fresh 60 and dont have gear like you.. would it be better to go the standard rek bomb build? (0/25/26?) also what seal do you use with that talents? SoR?
Love the detailed vids. Playing pally now as a tank (so strickly PvE until the honor system changes) but watching these makes me look forward to some HolyReck playtime in AB or WSG. Coming at this from as a totally PvE minded guy, what are your thoughts on Black Grasps of the Destroyer for PvP purposes? If SoR makes the 8-mana gain/drain trigger twice (not sure if it does) is there an valid argument to use it? Assuming 100% time on target (which is big assumption, but the goal) with a 1.5 speed wep...thats around 50ish Mp5. Obviously, we give up the effective-HP your current hand slot gives, but does the conceptual value of "more mana" outweigh that? Do we fall into the trap of gilding the lily, because we dont HAVE mana issues to warrant this attempt at Mp5 shenannigans?
Black Grasps is mostly used vs DRUIDS, maybe vs Shadow Priests but they die screaming no matter what you are waring, go watch my PvP guide on it. Black Grasps DO NOT x2 proc. I tested it recently after everyone told me they did. 80% what the community tells you is WRONG just FYI.
IDK if this content isnt for me but I would never invite a holy to a 40man raid that has no improved blessings or bok since I'm expecting everyone to play to their full potential. Also lasting judgement is a must for raids unless ofc your setup lets you unspec from it. Which is still kinda weird because playing without lasting judgement is heavily annoying.
See you SAY that in your mind but let me present some SAD facts of life about Paladin. 1. You need 5-6 of them per 40 man raid. ALL HOLY. One of them with Blessing of Sanctuary. The MORE paladins you have = BETTER easier, safer raids, GDKP's, Onny's... so on. 2. Paladins are less than 10% of the player base. So every raid wants 15% of the raid as paladins and they are only 10% of the population. And not all of them are cool playing Holy... Then their is the "skill" level of the paladin player base. They are tards as a general rule and will underperform on the reg. So if you are talking GOOD Paladins for a raid... And you can see the math very much turning against you. Then their is Holy Paladin Fatigue. Playing H-Pally is one of the least fun things you can do in WoW, so its not uncommon to have to PAY (gold) H-Paladins to raid with you (good ones anyways) ESPECIALLY for GDKP's where they need the carry. 10 man chad crew with at least 3-4 Chad H-Pallies can solo MC and the GDKP community knows it.
Opinion on foregoing FR for 3 piece ZG bonus? I also have a big issue with this build. Helmet is locked down due to 3-slot PvP bonus and this slot is often swapped for rocket helmet and other utility helmets. I'm not convinced FR is worth going for, at least not when talking giving up chunks of stats like ZG enchants. The stun component is what needs to be resisted and it a coinflip with fire aura up. The damage resisted will roughly equate the amount of stamina lost assuming a single grenade, having high HP above what you can heal in one HoJ is also not bad since you have Bubble and HoJ and pots and healing crits. Going low stamina is gonna make the paladin vulnerable to crit streaks as mages and locks get ridonculous damage in Naxx. If you do decide to go down this route I feel as if though lawbringer makes more sense for the belt slot given the relatively cheap FR. Certainly a stronger choice than giving up a Naxx enchant on the shoulders. Your math is all over the place too. 5 attacks with 22% critical strike (well, it's actually 10 but since you're going for best of 4 we'll excuse it) does not 100% make. Not sure how you get a 100% Hand of Rag proc either, even by adding instead of multiplying, perhaps you misspoke? Also 3-4 rolls is a very small sample and you'll never be able to safely predict a kill within the small margins we have in the example. Even with a sapper and ASSUMING no fire ward (which a good mage will use and can use frost or fire spec) and no resist the Mage won't die if he has Frost Barrier up and rank 13 gear or better with stamina enchants. Won't kill a rank 13 or mixed gear Rogue either, possibly not even get them into hammer range. Not taking AGM ito account here either. And frost barrier and fire ward is and should be used simultaneously by a mage. Mana is only somewhat of an issue when using manashield and mage can just reset if need be. Even if at hammer of wrath range, there's CSm there's Ice Block, there's coldsnap frostbarrier, there's poly, bandage, dusts, LOS... Basically duel a good mage instead and post how this theory pans out. I've dueled good maged on Henhouse (Great Wizard among others) and they're not vegetables. I don't even see how your premise of 3-4 attempts to build up a reck bomb and hit it vs a Mage holds true. Not with Naxx gear,
I was keeping the build Phase 3 or 4... that's why no Naxx Stam to Shoulders. Gearing changes slightly if you have access to Naxx gear, obviously. Ease of building a char for PvP is a MASSIVE and often overlooked element in "BiS" guides. So I try to suggest a more basic setup and if you can't figure out X > Y as Naxx and AQ gear become available thats on you.
This is a fascinating read as I discord, play, and theory craft with some of the best paladin PvPers in the world and not one of them says I am wrong here. So either myself, Telryene, Peaceblade, Minnodin, DRAKOVA (who helped me make this build)... are all WRONG... or... I think you are theory crafting to much and not actually PvPing. The build here is clearly Phase 3 and would change with Naxx Gear. I have fought those Naxx gear Atiesh mages such as Smog before and the FR and Thick Obsidian plays havoc with their DPS. I have a very LONG Paladin vs Mage Guide if you really want to know why mages lose to this build. But it boils down to... 1. They can't kill you 2. If your bomb gets them sub 20% life... you can always get 1 Hammer of Wrath off before you eat a sheep. If that wrath crits (and its a x2 crit), they die. And you can do this over, and over, and over again until you either have your second bubble at about the 8m mark and they are SUPER dead. Or they got lucky with RNG before you did and you die. Keep in mind they have to get lucky RNG about 3 times in a fight, and you only 1 time. There are soft factors too such as Mage having mana issues. Heart beat duration. And the SHOCKING EASE at which you can trinket and gear swap on mages in a fight. Its 6s to drop combat. If your chasing a mage they are going to do "what" exactly to keep you in combat? Fire Blast every 8s? Stop to wand you? LOL! What about running away in a straight line with freedom on? If you want to get technical, you can sit in a FULL resist suit, SUPER unkillable, charge up 2 hander, then swap out and go for a bomb. I Read what you're saying, and I hear you. The math does sound suss yes... the sheer amount of time this strat would need... yadda yadda. But if you play it its REALLY hard for the mage to win. Which makes me wonder... are you just running at these mages and wondering why its not working? Because the cycle is "Catch a FB while in sheep >> Freedom >> Heal >> Get CS'ed >> RUN RUN RUN >> Heal to full >> Go Offensive >> Get a bomb in >> Wrath >> Get Sheeped. You can gear swap on the RUN RUN RUN... and in the chasing of the mage before they can sheep you again. Nothing they can do about it. Factor that in + a Naxx Gear upgrade... and see what you think. Also I appreciate comments like this. Its a head scratcher if you don't know the gear swapping you can do for sure. Very few mages need the gear swapping though. Just like very few mages can find their damn fire ward or have the best gear in the game. When I fight the best of the best mages... I usually sigh and buckle down for killing them 2nd or 3rd bubble. Because their will be health pots, whipper roots, burrow shells, fire wards, speed pots, tidal charms, Eye of Moabs, AGM. If I can gear swap, they can gear swap and suddenly we are both in for a wild ride.
I'll tell you a story. Smog, Palm Pyro, Atiesh... is the best geared and more well known Mage of Era. When I was ranking, dusting in silithus, Smog would come pay me a visit like the A-hole he is. I got no Hand of Rag, no 2 set Rank bonus... just an Ebon Hand, 172 Fire Resist, Thick Obsidian and a dream. He found me VERY hard to kill. Annoyingly soo. I killed him a couple times with mobs... a few more times with precharge bombs and Discombobulator Ray. After a couple Ray deaths he found his "dispell curse" button and that never worked again except to dismount him. I called Drakova out to kill him. He Reflected a Pyro Blast at about 20y... and Smog BARELY got Fire Ward up in time to save his life. Drakova caught it on video. This was SO STRANGE and unknown to us both that we had to look it up and watch the video. This was how we learned Fire Ward existed and that was about 7 months ago. What's the moral of this story? Most Mages won't use Fire Ward to the point where we have been playing for YEARS and didn't even know they HAD spells like that. And Smog didn't know about Discombobulator ray, dying to it repeatedly. This is a FAR more accurate representation of the game. I have a "how to beat mages NO FUN ALLOWED" Video if you REALLY want to see the horror of what top tier vs top tier looks like theoretically. But objectively speaking... You might have 1 fight at that level a YEAR unless you go and look for it specifically. Serious fights like this between TOP pvpers usually break out over farming rights to an AREA. You die, come back properly geared, they die, they come back properly geared... You two have a 10m+ fight in the snow, desert, whatever... Win lose or draw... quickly both sides figure out that its not worth the time and come to an understanding... That's Realistic PvP.
@@pallytime2156 Not to be rude but your claims of best paladins in the world are unproven. I find that in particular americans are prone to this hyperbole, thinking their server or sometimes circle of friends is the world. Why should I even think Drakova is a great duelist or PvPer? Ultimately as well, an appeal to authority is a weak argument in this case. The build should stand on a proven track record or its own unshakable arguments. You claim the build would change with Naxx-gear, yet somewhere in the video you state that the build has nothing to get from Naxx. Fortitude of the Scourge makes sense but you already have chromatic mantle of the dawn which is a late game enchant. So what are you swapping come naxx? The notion that "the can't kill you" is pretty much true in reverse. You can't kill them unless they overcommit and/or make a mistake. They however can kill you (given this build) and just like you can get lucky and has more time on the clock (theoretically infinite) to fish for that crit finisher. However, I also want to point out that outside of duels time isn't infinite. That's why I hate playing rogue. You can set up the perfect stunlock to grind even a SL T3 Warlock down but there's usually gonna be another player showing up to ruin it for you. But yeah, you're kinda touching on the time issue already in your post. I think rather than having to get lucky with the reckbomb the ideal situation would be recking before the mage has refreshed barrier after getting Eye for an Eyed. If possible reckbatch him the moment after her lands a frostbolt crit (when blink is on CD). As for keeping you in combat, rank 1 spells all day. Pillar play helps immensely here however and I dare say makes a Paladin very difficult if not unkillable. I also do think that you typically can get out of combat at least once for a gear swap. What type of resist set would you be swapping to? Naxx cold resist set? You lose much of that FR then. I haven't tried such a swap and not sure if the stat losses are worth it or if the Mage wouldn't be able to swap to Arcane Missiles, Arcane Explosion, Blast wave (if elemental) and Fireball. I wonder if not a BIS healing set wouldn't be more effective to kill his manabar? Even if you succeed, outside of a duel, he'll just /snore and disengage. Btw, how would you say the gear loadout changes if you instead go Ret/Reck and why?
@@pallytime2156 Like, I'll totally subscribe to that with this level of gear and commitment you'll smack the crap out of any basic Mage. The same is usually (heh) true for a commited Warrior too wanting to slay mages. But IMO a mage that doesn't use fireward is a bad duelist and wouldn't win, say, any major dueling tournament. It's an essential ability in every matchup, especially with sappers around. Fireward should be accounted for in the algorithm. If you guys wanted to try your worth ask someone like Greatwizard to duel you on henhouse (only BWL/ZG gear though and no Hammer of Rag though). I dueled most mages on there and he was easily among the top 3 duelists. If you can beat him or a mage of his caliber I'd take that as modicum of proof. Past phase 3 mages only get stronger and Paladins don't really, outside of MoM which you instead make a case against picking.
I think Hand of Justice might be better. Hard to tell. Even +2% crit blank hands breath is really good. Maelstrom is 3% chance to proc per hit... but I think its PPM so it varies with weapon speed. No x2 proc chance. Hand of Justice is better if you have GEAR and Meastrom if you don't because one scales the other is flat. For PvP... THERE IS NO HIGHER DPS TRINKET than simple catching a fool for a few seconds. And trinkets that can CATCH can also be used to RUN. So they pull double duty. Naturally such value is hard to quantify. But most burst trinkets do 400 damage IF you are lucky. That's like 2s of DPS for a 1 handed Paladin or less... And enemy STILL needs to use something to get you OFF them. There just isn't a comparision.
@@pallytime2156 thanks for the reply. I don’t have hoj or black hands breadth yet, I’m prob like 25 runs deep on hoj… I do however have the maelstrom trinket. Also on a side note… I’ve been messing around with 20/0/31 and Im having an absolute blast with it. Good raid heals, great for pvp, I can dps whatever, tank whatever 5 man I want, has great synergy with pvp gear and all other tier sets. I think I’m gonna stick with this for a while. Edit: I also saw Minnodin made a cameo in your video where you test DI aggro drop. He’s actually the pala class lead in my guild and has been super helpful to me.
Two questions. 1 Could you link the gear builds in the description 2 I saw a vid recently (it came out like 11 months ago) talking about some gloves being good for pally pvp as the lightning proc is classed as physical, idk if that is more of a you or a Drakova question given it being more of a ret thing, but as I don't have any way to talk to him I can just ask you, have you guys seen those? are they worth the extra proc chance, or does losing set bonuses from judgement/marshal's make them irrelevent. If you haven't seen the vid just search up "Paladin classic gloves" and it should show up, its the one from Bradley and at time of writing has 22k views from 11months ago & Ciri from the Witcher is in the thumbnail.
They wear those gloves because they can critically strike the target procing the 15% dmg buff talent (vengeance). Vengeance isnt calculated into the critical strike that procs it, in a sense, you're losing a lot of dmg if your sitting around waiting for vengeance to proc on your melees. Those piece of gear has a chance of side stepping that wait and there are a few other items just like it. In raid its a meme. You should have like a 50% crit chance in raid. Every other swing is going to proc vengeance. Wearing shit gloves will only hurt your DPS not increase it. I dont think they were ever confirmed for procing on hit effects or chance on hit effects. I could be wrong and if I am i will start wearing them for nightfall.
@@alexanderhenderson2594 Vengeance is a deep retribution talent. I personally think deep retribution builds are a bit of a meme in pvp. Deep ret is relying almost entirely on lucky Seal of Command procs to kill opponents. Using bubbles/stuns/repents to work heals in on themselves to buy more time for SoC procs. If you go Deep retribution you'd want those gloves. Pallytime, Drakova, myself, and many others prefer to have 25 points in protection for the talent 'Reckoning'. If you want Reckoning you cant have 'vengeance'. If the 3 lightning dmg proc from the gloves cant trigger "chance on hit" effects from weapons or gear, then they arent worth considering for any one but a deep ret build pvper.
I'll make a video on this. I am aware you Ret Reck guys would find it hard to get advice out there. TLDR is Drakova says "Stats are KING" so the item is bad.
@lumbermill8588 the gauntlets are called "Storm Gauntlets" and they do proc "chance on hit" items like HoJ, SoC, DMC:Maelstrom, etc. I have it and it feels nice when everything procs and aligns but it's a rare sight to see. You also lose a lot of raw stats when using storm gauntlets which makes me not want to use it in pvp. It's great for pve if your ret or if you're out farming with a 2h. Can work against low geared people or classes that have low hp to get procs quickly and kill them fast. I have a ton of footage using it in pvp but been to lazy to post any of it xD
This is a PvP build, Hard Core is a completely different animal. With Hard Core you would want the same stuff people war for AoE tanking / DC protection and just to fight 1 mob at a time when friends are not around. Deamonforged Breast Plate 120 healing 40% Ratio Skullflame Shield 100% Ratio Uthers Str Trinket = SUPER GOOD There is a 16 HP5 Trinket, shard of the scale I think from ZG. A few other HP5 Trinkets that are easy to get. Reflect damage also good where you can find it. Really you just want a way to survive a DC. Might be a Neck Piece with HP5 but I forget.
I would like to main tank dungeons and off-tank / heal raids. Is viable going Holy/Prot (20/31/0)? Holy tree: 5/5 Illumination. On the Protection tree, Blessing of Kings, 5/5 Toughness & Anticipation, 2/5 on Sword Specialization and Holy Shield.
@@lumbermill8588 thanks, I was wondering if its ok to not have Divine Favor (since I need the point in Holy Shield). It seems like its ok to not have Divine Favor. I don't think a guarantee crit heal is going to be too important in the grand scheme of raids.
You don't even need Illumination for Raid Healing honestly. Just do Rank 1 FoL and Max Rank HoL and your good. The issue then though is where else to I put those talents? And their aren't that man options. If you are off tanking raids you are going to find that FoLing self in between enemy auto attacks is a THING. When healing your Block Dodge Parry is not there. Other REALLY helpful things are to have are to TALK to people and have a dedicated Paladin Healer. Our main issue tanking is that our HP pool is so LOW. So RNG can com for dat as. We "compensate" for this by SEEING we just lose 2/3 of our life, and FoLing before the next hit comes in AND possibly using Instant HP items like Wipper Root, Health Pot. TRINKETS that give you HP > Than Mitigation Trinkets. Why? Because its RNG that's going to kill you and mitigation trinkets do NOTHING against that. So Trinkets that can ++your HP at a moments Notice tend to be better. Why you get good at it you can make it all the way around again to the CD's coming back up again. Bubble and BoP are also good emergency HP abilities as long as you cancel them quickly after catching heals. HEAL with Righteous Furry on. That way if Tank dies or loses agro it will be YOU the mob comes after. Which is fine. We can take it.
@pallytime2156 ehhh I don't know about r1 spamming vs max rank spamming. You have to parse to some extent or you look like dead weight. Politics is a thing when it comes to loot distribution and you want to avoid sticking out in a bad way.
How do you respond when mages counterspell Hammer of Wrath and then push for a reset during the last stage of the fight when you advocate for Hammer of Wrath post reckoning and lack skele summons and have exhausted your trinkets?
They never have counterspell. Matches the timeline of events as well. They can get it a few seconds AFTER the bomb... say 10s or so. Skelly summon is 20s away at that point. Counter spell lasts 10s, and puts mage in combat 6s. So... they what? Get 2 eating and drinking ticks in at best and then have to worry about you again + skelly on the way? We are still talking about a low life, low mana, mage who can't kill you and DESPERATELY NEEDS to get a sheep on you or skelly summons alone about to wreck him. Point is that after the bomb their is a wrath they can't Counter Spell. All they can do is sheep you. They are not 3% life. A few eating and drinking ticks are not going to fix this situation. You are a SHEEP right now, yes. But if you have PvP trinket, Bubble, Tidal charm... things are about to get interesting for the mage. You SIT the sheep until they are about to eat and drink (6s... your wrath CD is 6s)... PvP trinket and try to kill them. Counterspell... which they likely still don't have... MIGHT save them. But they can't sheep you because you run away and its a 1.5s cast. They can blink sheep you. But that's one HELL of a short duration sheep and skelly pet x2 is about to be involved. I did a Paladin vs Mage Guide Recently where I go into the stuff mages REALLY don't stand a chance to. This was not a top tier explaination of how to beat mages. This was tactics that will kill all but the best of the best mages under almost any circumstance. Notice I was even talking about Fireward which you NEVER see being used. There are also addons that let you track Counterspell CD and you can fake cast them pretty easy. x2 Skelly summon to a low health and low mana mage is usually death though 100% of the time unless they just run away in a straight line blinking forever. Other fun facts are... skelly summons keeps mage in combat but doesn't put YOU incombat so enjoy the eating and drinking and free Mounts.
I am a little drunk. Friend is insisting we get drunk and play games togeather so... I might have TLDR'ed you a bit to much there. Here my answer... 1. Go check out the Paladin vs Mage guide if you REALLY want to know how to give mages ZERO chance to win. 2. The flow of combat is that Mage CS you then trys to kill you as you RUN AWAY with freedom on. They fail to kill you. You heal to full and run at them. How you "Catch" a mage is from them using this "you running at them" as a second chance to KILL you. They fail... blink... get stunned... IB or fail to IB and get the Bomb. You will notice CS is on a 10s CD still as the Bomb Lands. Some mages opt to Run, forever keeping paladin at 30y and NEVER letting you get close. This is really Duel tactics only because it doesn't work under any other conditions. Dueling conditions is were you follow the GUIDES advice. Its also a TRAP. Mage wants you to use things to try to catch them. Don't. Realize that Skelly Pet summons keep mage in combat but let you out of combat. So you can eat / Drink off of skelly pets if they REALLY want to play a mana war. Duels last 10m, they need 5m to oom you but you can drink off of Skelly pets sooo... That is why that is not a thing at high level. It just ends in a DRAW. Mindcontrol Cap, Rocket Helm, Gnomish Cloak + Gear Swapping and BOMB threat is what kills Mages in Serious Duels. Usually how a DUEL will play out is that I will try it in my genaric Gear... being "Nice"... I will see mage taking it SUPER SERIOUSLY. I will roll my eyes. Spend the 10m to show him why that's not going to work, and in the second duel introduce them to "Mage just dies with no chance" tactics. You ware different gear for that.
@@pallytime2156 I did enjoy listening to your Paladin vs Mage guide before this video, so I really appreciate you outlining the main sequence of events you were advocating for in that video (i.e. skele summons, unique eng items) especially when PVPing as a deep holy paladin. For most of this video, however, I am under the assumption that you would be using your novel high fire resist PVP set (5 piece T2, 3 piece PVP, hand of rag, etc), during which you would not have the option to use skele summons since you are using a 2 handed weapon. So my question was asking what would you do if you couldn't follow up with skele summons in that case and hammer of wrath was counterspelled and your eng CC trinkets are on CD. I was under the impression that you would use eng trinkets to catch the mage and DPS down the mage, and if I am understanding this correctly, you are saying we should save the eng trinkets to follow up the reck bomb, hammer of wrath finisher if they don't kill the mage? Thanks again! And as a side note, I died a little inside last week when I saw the Eye of Sulfuras FINALLY drop for the first time... while I was raiding MC on a rogue alt.
Your question is a little difficult to answer because how easy or HARD the fight is really depends on how cowardly the mage is being. Does the mage just NEVER let you closer than 20y? For example. The issue here is that if the mage is Cowardly and YOU are Aggressive = Paladin loses. If Mage is Cowardly and You play into that by "saying fine... 10m long draw duel... coming up" then its a Draw. You have LOTS of gear swaping opportunities on any mage do to Fire Blast being 8s CD, 20y Range and you only needing 6s to drop combat... AND Heart Beat tick breaks that playing cowardly to the point where you don't have what I say you SHOULD have doesn't make much sense. Mages playing cowardly is a "stupidity check" on your end. Pass it and things look different. There are TWO scenarios where you get IB's out of Mage and or kill them if they don't have IB's. 1. Is you run at them>> they blink >> you nade them >> catch up to them >> give them the business >> then HoJ them 3 more Seconds of stun. No mage is going to survive 4.5s+ of melee combat with you especially when they still need to sheep you. Great they CS'ed your Hammer of Wrath... watch them eat a few more autos while they try to cast SHEEP on you with that x2 push back (also not sure if CS puts them on GCD or not). This is an IB or Die Scenario for the Mage. 2. Mage plays Cowardly. When you are running AT him he runs away. So you have to use HoJ at 10-13yrds with Leeway to catch the bastard >> He Blinks >> You goblin Mortar to catch him... and we have the sequence I talked about in the video. Other options for initiating scenario #1 are by using PvP trinket or Bubble Offensively. They have to stop running and try to SHEEP you at some point so you just eat the sheep 6yrd away from them. Trinket / Bubble it and... *See Scenario 1*. These abilities are on a 5m CD, where as IB is and Cold Snap average out to being 8m CDs. This fight can last 10m... So you have this dance where you can be in and out of Resist suits if you want (if they are running away forever and Fire Blast on 8s CD is all they have to keep you in combat which only lasts 6s, and they need to stop and running and wand you or get off 1.5s cast rank 1 frost bolt...) With reck bombs if you want to. Using all manner of items or even your base abilities and TIME to get out those IB's and set the death scenario up. We SURVIVE. Get out the IB's. Then look at what we have to work with still.
Point is, that these fights can be SO LONG that the idea that you don't have 15m CD's and other items that I NEVER tell you to use in any other duel scenario is ridiculous. We use Skelly Summons on Warlocks and Mages and MAYBE Shadow Priests but they are only really needed for Mages after 6m or more of fighting them. If you want to hurt yourself mentally. You use Bubble to force out one IB, then PvP Trinket to force out another. Then you wait the 4m or so until Bubble is back and ATTEMPT to explain to me how Mage Boy isn't SUPER dead when he gets hit with Goblin Mortar + Whatever Trinket (Goblin Bomb Dispenser for example, ZG Hero Charm, Tidal Charm, Niffty Stop Watch take your pick). You had all the time in the world to gear swap. You can't die. If you SUPER don't want to do use resist suits while you wait for Bubble to come back... And this is all without Skelly Summon Books or Rocket Helm or Gnomish Cloak or Potion usage. If the mage cannot kill you and you have a bomb threatening enough to force IB's = Mage Loses. Hard to do that without gear swapping in one package, but the fire resist Holy Reck Paladin CAN. He's the special boy that don't need to gear swap in and out of resist suits. The price he pays for this however is that you might need x2 Skelly Summon pets if things get frisky to close it out. What I was saying in the Paladin vs Mage video was "Gear Swap on them and they Die" What I was saying the Holy Reck Video was "This guy don't need no resist suit, gnomish cloak, rocket helm, mind control gear swapping but things can get interesting because of it. And as such MIGHT need x2 skelly summons to close it out." 100% of the time with that build... what ends up happening is that your "Try" to play "nice" with the mage and if they are STILL alive after everything... if PvP trinket was used a second time then Bubble will be back up next or visa versa. They have no IB's... you still have "No fun allowed" party tricks in you bags. So I usually just get frustrated... say FINE and out comes Rocket Helm or whatever other flavor of F U I feel like to end it. I have had times where I just didn't HAVE such items in my bags so I was forced to just Bomb after Bomb after BOMB until my 1 wrath I can do before I get Counter spelled Critted (which is a x2 damage crit) and might be melee crit chance based no idea. It happens often though. That can also be a thing when you run them out of IB's. Run run run >> Stop to Sheep >> HoJ >> Blink >> Nade >> Bomb >> Wrath >> Sheeped. Over and over until finally... wrath says 1500 damage and tell them "sit boy!" Or your bomb high-rolls a little bit harder than usual. I mathed a 1 in 4 wreck bomb. So you can imagine what the 1 in 8 looks like. It tends to not need Wrath to Crit. Conclusion = If you are unkillable and have a BOMB + Change that can KILL a mage (and thus force out IB's)... Mage cannot win. Mages ALWAYS have RNG possibility to kill us so all this other stuff with the gadgets and skelly summons, resist suits, and so on is just to make thing play out FASTER giving the mages as little possibility to RNG their way to victory. That build has more fire resist than you can shake a stick at, it can do the in and out resist suit meta. It has Thick Obsidian. Ret Reck kills mages if they can hit them but DIE horrifically if caught outside a full resist suit in a sheep. The Holy Reck is this odd middle ground of don't need no resist suit but CAN die in like 1 in 20 burst attempts... maybe... if bubble, healing potion, whipper root, and Major Recombo trinket didn't exist... Its touch CAN kill but usually it won't. It just maintains a VERY high win rate by touching the mage over and over until they die. @@hongscientific
You sure that 1 hand wep specialisation increase all your dmg except consecration ? So is like white , retribution aura, sor tiks, hamer ? Cos it’s in tbc like that
I didn't fully test it but it increases damage of SoR, Command, White and Judgement damage ONLY. Which in a PvE context = Nothing. But in a PvP context = Everything.
31/20/0 all time best vanilla paladin spec. Amazing for pocketing your friends in bgs and amazing for spamming your tank. I feel like you kinda miss the point of holy shock, having the heal land at the start of the global instead of at the end can be huge. Smoothing over fuck ups is what a good healer does
As a dedicated healer in BG's its "ok". BUT... we have an entire pallycast episode 3 I think talking about why REPENT is better. I recently got done ranking and healing in Era while ranking and I can say for sure that HS was not needed nor would it have made a difference. We use Holy Light almost exclusively. Holy Shock heals SO LITTLE that it is SUPER RARE that you can HS someone into a Holy Light (4s total) and they live vs Holy Light Holy Light (5s). One heals for 800 + 2500. The other for 5k. In those few cases where I would have used HS, such as there is a Priest running at me and I am running away (he wants to fear you) but I am still in support of a warrior... Cleanse is usually just as good if not better. HS is terrible. If you have never tried living without then try it, you will see. Some people still love it though.
I will play raid + duel in hardcore Is there an item to replace the rank13 gear? I'm thinking Helm of Endless Rage and Gauntlets of the Righteous Champion for max hp 5051 lower hp to 4981 Would an avenger's crown for 0.3crit and 360mp 23 spellpower be good?
Just about anything is good in Hardcore but Avengers is solid and easy to get. Gear that just has STATS is usually competative with range gear. Belt of the fallen crusader, Avenger bits and the like.
Thanks for the video Pallytime. Light bless
what about the grand crusader gear from Naxx? wouldn't that be better than t2? also how do you feel about deathbringer over flurry axe
Yet again great video! I have a few questions from the point of view of a noob that hasn't played the game in 10 years doing hardcore as a pally. First I know I need to hit 60 first before thinking about raiding but I want to prepare myself now with the knowledge now.
My first question is would you suggest putting one talent point in the Kings Blessing?
My second question is in hardcore which type of paladin healing would be more useful in raiding? Rank one healing or the parsing healing?
Bro thank you for taking the time to create these videos. It was a dense information that I needed. Also is there any other place we can follow you or donate to?
Keep your money to yourself.
The kings answer = NO. Kings is kind of bad, it only increases stats gained from gear by 10% not ALL stats by 10% so its more like 6% stat gain.
What's worse is that ALL the paladins not watching my videos take kings so no point in you taking it. You also have Sanctuary which is RARE for paladins to have so that will be the blessing you use.
Raids have 5-6 paladins. One of them will have kings.
What kind of HEALING paladin you will be get determined by the other paladins in your raid. You want about 50/50 or 33/66% split, Rank 1/ Parsers.
If you want to be a parser you have to take 5/5 Holy Power for the crit and Holy Shock (its a heal while you move).
Rule is basically if you want to parse = be a parser. If you don't care about parsing DO NOT be a parser. HELP the parsers parse by sacrificing your own healing and they will love you for it.
@@pallytime2156 Thanks for all this info! I might just do the rank 1, so I have a better chance of getting into raids. Your videos have been a great help. Keep up the great work!
would be nice if you add that wowhead profile for talents + items for paladin newbies :D so we can read the item stuff :D also if we are fresh 60 and dont have gear like you.. would it be better to go the standard rek bomb build? (0/25/26?)
also what seal do you use with that talents? SoR?
Love the detailed vids. Playing pally now as a tank (so strickly PvE until the honor system changes) but watching these makes me look forward to some HolyReck playtime in AB or WSG. Coming at this from as a totally PvE minded guy, what are your thoughts on Black Grasps of the Destroyer for PvP purposes? If SoR makes the 8-mana gain/drain trigger twice (not sure if it does) is there an valid argument to use it? Assuming 100% time on target (which is big assumption, but the goal) with a 1.5 speed wep...thats around 50ish Mp5. Obviously, we give up the effective-HP your current hand slot gives, but does the conceptual value of "more mana" outweigh that? Do we fall into the trap of gilding the lily, because we dont HAVE mana issues to warrant this attempt at Mp5 shenannigans?
Black Grasps is mostly used vs DRUIDS, maybe vs Shadow Priests but they die screaming no matter what you are waring, go watch my PvP guide on it.
Black Grasps DO NOT x2 proc. I tested it recently after everyone told me they did.
80% what the community tells you is WRONG just FYI.
@@pallytime2156 are they wrong about reckoning doesn’t work anymore? And if so what should I throw those 5 points into on a holy/prot raid spec heals
@@jamesspear1923 Who says it doesn't work?
thanks for your content dude!
great guides man
IDK if this content isnt for me but I would never invite a holy to a 40man raid that has no improved blessings or bok since I'm expecting everyone to play to their full potential. Also lasting judgement is a must for raids unless ofc your setup lets you unspec from it. Which is still kinda weird because playing without lasting judgement is heavily annoying.
See you SAY that in your mind but let me present some SAD facts of life about Paladin.
1. You need 5-6 of them per 40 man raid. ALL HOLY. One of them with Blessing of Sanctuary. The MORE paladins you have = BETTER easier, safer raids, GDKP's, Onny's... so on.
2. Paladins are less than 10% of the player base.
So every raid wants 15% of the raid as paladins and they are only 10% of the population. And not all of them are cool playing Holy...
Then their is the "skill" level of the paladin player base. They are tards as a general rule and will underperform on the reg.
So if you are talking GOOD Paladins for a raid...
And you can see the math very much turning against you.
Then their is Holy Paladin Fatigue. Playing H-Pally is one of the least fun things you can do in WoW, so its not uncommon to have to PAY (gold) H-Paladins to raid with you (good ones anyways) ESPECIALLY for GDKP's where they need the carry.
10 man chad crew with at least 3-4 Chad H-Pallies can solo MC and the GDKP community knows it.
Opinion on foregoing FR for 3 piece ZG bonus?
I also have a big issue with this build. Helmet is locked down due to 3-slot PvP bonus and this slot is often swapped for rocket helmet and other utility helmets.
I'm not convinced FR is worth going for, at least not when talking giving up chunks of stats like ZG enchants. The stun component is what needs to be resisted and it a coinflip with fire aura up. The damage resisted will roughly equate the amount of stamina lost assuming a single grenade, having high HP above what you can heal in one HoJ is also not bad since you have Bubble and HoJ and pots and healing crits. Going low stamina is gonna make the paladin vulnerable to crit streaks as mages and locks get ridonculous damage in Naxx. If you do decide to go down this route I feel as if though lawbringer makes more sense for the belt slot given the relatively cheap FR. Certainly a stronger choice than giving up a Naxx enchant on the shoulders.
Your math is all over the place too. 5 attacks with 22% critical strike (well, it's actually 10 but since you're going for best of 4 we'll excuse it) does not 100% make. Not sure how you get a 100% Hand of Rag proc either, even by adding instead of multiplying, perhaps you misspoke? Also 3-4 rolls is a very small sample and you'll never be able to safely predict a kill within the small margins we have in the example. Even with a sapper and ASSUMING no fire ward (which a good mage will use and can use frost or fire spec) and no resist the Mage won't die if he has Frost Barrier up and rank 13 gear or better with stamina enchants. Won't kill a rank 13 or mixed gear Rogue either, possibly not even get them into hammer range. Not taking AGM ito account here either. And frost barrier and fire ward is and should be used simultaneously by a mage. Mana is only somewhat of an issue when using manashield and mage can just reset if need be. Even if at hammer of wrath range, there's CSm there's Ice Block, there's coldsnap frostbarrier, there's poly, bandage, dusts, LOS... Basically duel a good mage instead and post how this theory pans out. I've dueled good maged on Henhouse (Great Wizard among others) and they're not vegetables.
I don't even see how your premise of 3-4 attempts to build up a reck bomb and hit it vs a Mage holds true. Not with Naxx gear,
I was keeping the build Phase 3 or 4... that's why no Naxx Stam to Shoulders. Gearing changes slightly if you have access to Naxx gear, obviously.
Ease of building a char for PvP is a MASSIVE and often overlooked element in "BiS" guides. So I try to suggest a more basic setup and if you can't figure out X > Y as Naxx and AQ gear become available thats on you.
This is a fascinating read as I discord, play, and theory craft with some of the best paladin PvPers in the world and not one of them says I am wrong here.
So either myself, Telryene, Peaceblade, Minnodin, DRAKOVA (who helped me make this build)... are all WRONG... or...
I think you are theory crafting to much and not actually PvPing. The build here is clearly Phase 3 and would change with Naxx Gear.
I have fought those Naxx gear Atiesh mages such as Smog before and the FR and Thick Obsidian plays havoc with their DPS.
I have a very LONG Paladin vs Mage Guide if you really want to know why mages lose to this build. But it boils down to...
1. They can't kill you
2. If your bomb gets them sub 20% life... you can always get 1 Hammer of Wrath off before you eat a sheep. If that wrath crits (and its a x2 crit), they die. And you can do this over, and over, and over again until you either have your second bubble at about the 8m mark and they are SUPER dead. Or they got lucky with RNG before you did and you die.
Keep in mind they have to get lucky RNG about 3 times in a fight, and you only 1 time.
There are soft factors too such as Mage having mana issues. Heart beat duration. And the SHOCKING EASE at which you can trinket and gear swap on mages in a fight.
Its 6s to drop combat. If your chasing a mage they are going to do "what" exactly to keep you in combat? Fire Blast every 8s? Stop to wand you? LOL!
What about running away in a straight line with freedom on?
If you want to get technical, you can sit in a FULL resist suit, SUPER unkillable, charge up 2 hander, then swap out and go for a bomb.
I Read what you're saying, and I hear you. The math does sound suss yes... the sheer amount of time this strat would need... yadda yadda.
But if you play it its REALLY hard for the mage to win.
Which makes me wonder... are you just running at these mages and wondering why its not working?
Because the cycle is "Catch a FB while in sheep >> Freedom >> Heal >> Get CS'ed >> RUN RUN RUN >> Heal to full >> Go Offensive >> Get a bomb in >> Wrath >> Get Sheeped.
You can gear swap on the RUN RUN RUN... and in the chasing of the mage before they can sheep you again.
Nothing they can do about it.
Factor that in + a Naxx Gear upgrade... and see what you think.
Also I appreciate comments like this. Its a head scratcher if you don't know the gear swapping you can do for sure.
Very few mages need the gear swapping though. Just like very few mages can find their damn fire ward or have the best gear in the game.
When I fight the best of the best mages... I usually sigh and buckle down for killing them 2nd or 3rd bubble. Because their will be health pots, whipper roots, burrow shells, fire wards, speed pots, tidal charms, Eye of Moabs, AGM.
If I can gear swap, they can gear swap and suddenly we are both in for a wild ride.
I'll tell you a story. Smog, Palm Pyro, Atiesh... is the best geared and more well known Mage of Era.
When I was ranking, dusting in silithus, Smog would come pay me a visit like the A-hole he is.
I got no Hand of Rag, no 2 set Rank bonus... just an Ebon Hand, 172 Fire Resist, Thick Obsidian and a dream.
He found me VERY hard to kill. Annoyingly soo.
I killed him a couple times with mobs... a few more times with precharge bombs and Discombobulator Ray.
After a couple Ray deaths he found his "dispell curse" button and that never worked again except to dismount him.
I called Drakova out to kill him. He Reflected a Pyro Blast at about 20y... and Smog BARELY got Fire Ward up in time to save his life.
Drakova caught it on video.
This was SO STRANGE and unknown to us both that we had to look it up and watch the video.
This was how we learned Fire Ward existed and that was about 7 months ago.
What's the moral of this story? Most Mages won't use Fire Ward to the point where we have been playing for YEARS and didn't even know they HAD spells like that.
And Smog didn't know about Discombobulator ray, dying to it repeatedly.
This is a FAR more accurate representation of the game.
I have a "how to beat mages NO FUN ALLOWED" Video if you REALLY want to see the horror of what top tier vs top tier looks like theoretically.
But objectively speaking...
You might have 1 fight at that level a YEAR unless you go and look for it specifically.
Serious fights like this between TOP pvpers usually break out over farming rights to an AREA. You die, come back properly geared, they die, they come back properly geared...
You two have a 10m+ fight in the snow, desert, whatever...
Win lose or draw... quickly both sides figure out that its not worth the time and come to an understanding...
That's Realistic PvP.
@@pallytime2156 Not to be rude but your claims of best paladins in the world are unproven. I find that in particular americans are prone to this hyperbole, thinking their server or sometimes circle of friends is the world. Why should I even think Drakova is a great duelist or PvPer? Ultimately as well, an appeal to authority is a weak argument in this case. The build should stand on a proven track record or its own unshakable arguments.
You claim the build would change with Naxx-gear, yet somewhere in the video you state that the build has nothing to get from Naxx. Fortitude of the Scourge makes sense but you already have chromatic mantle of the dawn which is a late game enchant. So what are you swapping come naxx?
The notion that "the can't kill you" is pretty much true in reverse. You can't kill them unless they overcommit and/or make a mistake. They however can kill you (given this build) and just like you can get lucky and has more time on the clock (theoretically infinite) to fish for that crit finisher. However, I also want to point out that outside of duels time isn't infinite. That's why I hate playing rogue. You can set up the perfect stunlock to grind even a SL T3 Warlock down but there's usually gonna be another player showing up to ruin it for you. But yeah, you're kinda touching on the time issue already in your post.
I think rather than having to get lucky with the reckbomb the ideal situation would be recking before the mage has refreshed barrier after getting Eye for an Eyed. If possible reckbatch him the moment after her lands a frostbolt crit (when blink is on CD).
As for keeping you in combat, rank 1 spells all day. Pillar play helps immensely here however and I dare say makes a Paladin very difficult if not unkillable. I also do think that you typically can get out of combat at least once for a gear swap. What type of resist set would you be swapping to? Naxx cold resist set? You lose much of that FR then. I haven't tried such a swap and not sure if the stat losses are worth it or if the Mage wouldn't be able to swap to Arcane Missiles, Arcane Explosion, Blast wave (if elemental) and Fireball. I wonder if not a BIS healing set wouldn't be more effective to kill his manabar? Even if you succeed, outside of a duel, he'll just /snore and disengage.
Btw, how would you say the gear loadout changes if you instead go Ret/Reck and why?
@@pallytime2156 Like, I'll totally subscribe to that with this level of gear and commitment you'll smack the crap out of any basic Mage. The same is usually (heh) true for a commited Warrior too wanting to slay mages.
But IMO a mage that doesn't use fireward is a bad duelist and wouldn't win, say, any major dueling tournament. It's an essential ability in every matchup, especially with sappers around. Fireward should be accounted for in the algorithm.
If you guys wanted to try your worth ask someone like Greatwizard to duel you on henhouse (only BWL/ZG gear though and no Hammer of Rag though). I dueled most mages on there and he was easily among the top 3 duelists. If you can beat him or a mage of his caliber I'd take that as modicum of proof. Past phase 3 mages only get stronger and Paladins don't really, outside of MoM which you instead make a case against picking.
i agree with reck holy, but as a healer its really handly to be able to instant heal when running
I'ts an awful lot of invest for a 25 yard range insta flash heal on a 30 second cool down.
Hey pallytime! what enchant do u put on your mug o hurt
havent commented on any of ur vids in a bit but as of right now im 7/8 judgement with ashkandi. came a long way since lightforge and brd blues lmao
Icey Enchant... when its out and in action its because you want to slow something to double down on that.@@Nistrin
Hey pallytime. What do you think about dark moon card maelstrom for this build?
I think Hand of Justice might be better. Hard to tell. Even +2% crit blank hands breath is really good.
Maelstrom is 3% chance to proc per hit... but I think its PPM so it varies with weapon speed.
No x2 proc chance.
Hand of Justice is better if you have GEAR and Meastrom if you don't because one scales the other is flat.
For PvP... THERE IS NO HIGHER DPS TRINKET than simple catching a fool for a few seconds.
And trinkets that can CATCH can also be used to RUN. So they pull double duty.
Naturally such value is hard to quantify.
But most burst trinkets do 400 damage IF you are lucky. That's like 2s of DPS for a 1 handed Paladin or less...
And enemy STILL needs to use something to get you OFF them.
There just isn't a comparision.
@@pallytime2156 thanks for the reply. I don’t have hoj or black hands breadth yet, I’m prob like 25 runs deep on hoj… I do however have the maelstrom trinket. Also on a side note… I’ve been messing around with 20/0/31 and Im having an absolute blast with it. Good raid heals, great for pvp, I can dps whatever, tank whatever 5 man I want, has great synergy with pvp gear and all other tier sets. I think I’m gonna stick with this for a while.
Edit: I also saw Minnodin made a cameo in your video where you test DI aggro drop. He’s actually the pala class lead in my guild and has been super helpful to me.
LOL. Have fun with it. That's a variation of "Classic Ret"@@Nistrin
The amount of slurping mouth sounds in this video was alarming
Great info tho!
Two questions.
1 Could you link the gear builds in the description
2 I saw a vid recently (it came out like 11 months ago) talking about some gloves being good for pally pvp as the lightning proc is classed as physical, idk if that is more of a you or a Drakova question given it being more of a ret thing, but as I don't have any way to talk to him I can just ask you, have you guys seen those? are they worth the extra proc chance, or does losing set bonuses from judgement/marshal's make them irrelevent.
If you haven't seen the vid just search up "Paladin classic gloves" and it should show up, its the one from Bradley and at time of writing has 22k views from 11months ago & Ciri from the Witcher is in the thumbnail.
They wear those gloves because they can critically strike the target procing the 15% dmg buff talent (vengeance).
Vengeance isnt calculated into the critical strike that procs it, in a sense, you're losing a lot of dmg if your sitting around waiting for vengeance to proc on your melees. Those piece of gear has a chance of side stepping that wait and there are a few other items just like it.
In raid its a meme. You should have like a 50% crit chance in raid. Every other swing is going to proc vengeance. Wearing shit gloves will only hurt your DPS not increase it.
I dont think they were ever confirmed for procing on hit effects or chance on hit effects. I could be wrong and if I am i will start wearing them for nightfall.
@@lumbermill8588I am not big brain enough to know the ins and outs of them, but in the vid the guy is mostly talking about using them for PvP not PvE.
@@alexanderhenderson2594 Vengeance is a deep retribution talent. I personally think deep retribution builds are a bit of a meme in pvp.
Deep ret is relying almost entirely on lucky Seal of Command procs to kill opponents. Using bubbles/stuns/repents to work heals in on themselves to buy more time for SoC procs.
If you go Deep retribution you'd want those gloves.
Pallytime, Drakova, myself, and many others prefer to have 25 points in protection for the talent 'Reckoning'. If you want Reckoning you cant have 'vengeance'.
If the 3 lightning dmg proc from the gloves cant trigger "chance on hit" effects from weapons or gear, then they arent worth considering for any one but a deep ret build pvper.
I'll make a video on this. I am aware you Ret Reck guys would find it hard to get advice out there.
TLDR is Drakova says "Stats are KING" so the item is bad.
@lumbermill8588 the gauntlets are called "Storm Gauntlets" and they do proc "chance on hit" items like HoJ, SoC, DMC:Maelstrom, etc. I have it and it feels nice when everything procs and aligns but it's a rare sight to see. You also lose a lot of raw stats when using storm gauntlets which makes me not want to use it in pvp. It's great for pve if your ret or if you're out farming with a 2h. Can work against low geared people or classes that have low hp to get procs quickly and kill them fast. I have a ton of footage using it in pvp but been to lazy to post any of it xD
What we should replace the pvp pieces with if we plan to play on the hc servers?
This is a PvP build, Hard Core is a completely different animal. With Hard Core you would want the same stuff people war for AoE tanking / DC protection and just to fight 1 mob at a time when friends are not around.
Deamonforged Breast Plate 120 healing 40% Ratio
Skullflame Shield 100% Ratio
Uthers Str Trinket = SUPER GOOD
There is a 16 HP5 Trinket, shard of the scale I think from ZG. A few other HP5 Trinkets that are easy to get.
Reflect damage also good where you can find it.
Really you just want a way to survive a DC. Might be a Neck Piece with HP5 but I forget.
I would like to main tank dungeons and off-tank / heal raids. Is viable going Holy/Prot (20/31/0)? Holy tree: 5/5 Illumination. On the Protection tree, Blessing of Kings, 5/5 Toughness & Anticipation, 2/5 on Sword Specialization and Holy Shield.
Yes, tue only talents you need for raid healing are push back reduction, improved heals, and the mana refund on crit.
@@lumbermill8588 thanks, I was wondering if its ok to not have Divine Favor (since I need the point in Holy Shield). It seems like its ok to not have Divine Favor. I don't think a guarantee crit heal is going to be too important in the grand scheme of raids.
@@Waruto No ones gonna notice at all. IMO that talent exists solely so Holy shock can actually be useful for an on the move heal.
You don't even need Illumination for Raid Healing honestly. Just do Rank 1 FoL and Max Rank HoL and your good. The issue then though is where else to I put those talents? And their aren't that man options.
If you are off tanking raids you are going to find that FoLing self in between enemy auto attacks is a THING. When healing your Block Dodge Parry is not there. Other REALLY helpful things are to have are to TALK to people and have a dedicated Paladin Healer. Our main issue tanking is that our HP pool is so LOW. So RNG can com for dat as.
We "compensate" for this by SEEING we just lose 2/3 of our life, and FoLing before the next hit comes in AND possibly using Instant HP items like Wipper Root, Health Pot.
TRINKETS that give you HP > Than Mitigation Trinkets. Why? Because its RNG that's going to kill you and mitigation trinkets do NOTHING against that. So Trinkets that can ++your HP at a moments Notice tend to be better.
Why you get good at it you can make it all the way around again to the CD's coming back up again.
Bubble and BoP are also good emergency HP abilities as long as you cancel them quickly after catching heals.
HEAL with Righteous Furry on. That way if Tank dies or loses agro it will be YOU the mob comes after. Which is fine. We can take it.
@pallytime2156 ehhh I don't know about r1 spamming vs max rank spamming. You have to parse to some extent or you look like dead weight. Politics is a thing when it comes to loot distribution and you want to avoid sticking out in a bad way.
How do you respond when mages counterspell Hammer of Wrath and then push for a reset during the last stage of the fight when you advocate for Hammer of Wrath post reckoning and lack skele summons and have exhausted your trinkets?
They never have counterspell. Matches the timeline of events as well. They can get it a few seconds AFTER the bomb... say 10s or so.
Skelly summon is 20s away at that point.
Counter spell lasts 10s, and puts mage in combat 6s.
So... they what? Get 2 eating and drinking ticks in at best and then have to worry about you again + skelly on the way?
We are still talking about a low life, low mana, mage who can't kill you and DESPERATELY NEEDS to get a sheep on you or skelly summons alone about to wreck him.
Point is that after the bomb their is a wrath they can't Counter Spell. All they can do is sheep you. They are not 3% life. A few eating and drinking ticks are not going to fix this situation.
You are a SHEEP right now, yes. But if you have PvP trinket, Bubble, Tidal charm... things are about to get interesting for the mage.
You SIT the sheep until they are about to eat and drink (6s... your wrath CD is 6s)... PvP trinket and try to kill them.
Counterspell... which they likely still don't have... MIGHT save them. But they can't sheep you because you run away and its a 1.5s cast.
They can blink sheep you. But that's one HELL of a short duration sheep and skelly pet x2 is about to be involved.
I did a Paladin vs Mage Guide Recently where I go into the stuff mages REALLY don't stand a chance to. This was not a top tier explaination of how to beat mages.
This was tactics that will kill all but the best of the best mages under almost any circumstance.
Notice I was even talking about Fireward which you NEVER see being used.
There are also addons that let you track Counterspell CD and you can fake cast them pretty easy.
x2 Skelly summon to a low health and low mana mage is usually death though 100% of the time unless they just run away in a straight line blinking forever.
Other fun facts are... skelly summons keeps mage in combat but doesn't put YOU incombat so enjoy the eating and drinking and free Mounts.
I am a little drunk. Friend is insisting we get drunk and play games togeather so...
I might have TLDR'ed you a bit to much there.
Here my answer...
1. Go check out the Paladin vs Mage guide if you REALLY want to know how to give mages ZERO chance to win.
2. The flow of combat is that Mage CS you then trys to kill you as you RUN AWAY with freedom on.
They fail to kill you. You heal to full and run at them. How you "Catch" a mage is from them using this "you running at them" as a second chance to KILL you.
They fail... blink... get stunned... IB or fail to IB and get the Bomb.
You will notice CS is on a 10s CD still as the Bomb Lands.
Some mages opt to Run, forever keeping paladin at 30y and NEVER letting you get close.
This is really Duel tactics only because it doesn't work under any other conditions. Dueling conditions is were you follow the GUIDES advice.
Its also a TRAP. Mage wants you to use things to try to catch them. Don't.
Realize that Skelly Pet summons keep mage in combat but let you out of combat. So you can eat / Drink off of skelly pets if they REALLY want to play a mana war.
Duels last 10m, they need 5m to oom you but you can drink off of Skelly pets sooo... That is why that is not a thing at high level. It just ends in a DRAW.
Mindcontrol Cap, Rocket Helm, Gnomish Cloak + Gear Swapping and BOMB threat is what kills Mages in Serious Duels.
Usually how a DUEL will play out is that I will try it in my genaric Gear... being "Nice"... I will see mage taking it SUPER SERIOUSLY. I will roll my eyes. Spend the 10m to show him why that's not going to work, and in the second duel introduce them to "Mage just dies with no chance" tactics.
You ware different gear for that.
@@pallytime2156 I did enjoy listening to your Paladin vs Mage guide before this video, so I really appreciate you outlining the main sequence of events you were advocating for in that video (i.e. skele summons, unique eng items) especially when PVPing as a deep holy paladin. For most of this video, however, I am under the assumption that you would be using your novel high fire resist PVP set (5 piece T2, 3 piece PVP, hand of rag, etc), during which you would not have the option to use skele summons since you are using a 2 handed weapon.
So my question was asking what would you do if you couldn't follow up with skele summons in that case and hammer of wrath was counterspelled and your eng CC trinkets are on CD. I was under the impression that you would use eng trinkets to catch the mage and DPS down the mage, and if I am understanding this correctly, you are saying we should save the eng trinkets to follow up the reck bomb, hammer of wrath finisher if they don't kill the mage?
Thanks again! And as a side note, I died a little inside last week when I saw the Eye of Sulfuras FINALLY drop for the first time... while I was raiding MC on a rogue alt.
Your question is a little difficult to answer because how easy or HARD the fight is really depends on how cowardly the mage is being. Does the mage just NEVER let you closer than 20y? For example.
The issue here is that if the mage is Cowardly and YOU are Aggressive = Paladin loses.
If Mage is Cowardly and You play into that by "saying fine... 10m long draw duel... coming up" then its a Draw.
You have LOTS of gear swaping opportunities on any mage do to Fire Blast being 8s CD, 20y Range and you only needing 6s to drop combat... AND Heart Beat tick breaks that playing cowardly to the point where you don't have what I say you SHOULD have doesn't make much sense.
Mages playing cowardly is a "stupidity check" on your end. Pass it and things look different.
There are TWO scenarios where you get IB's out of Mage and or kill them if they don't have IB's.
1. Is you run at them>> they blink >> you nade them >> catch up to them >> give them the business >> then HoJ them 3 more Seconds of stun.
No mage is going to survive 4.5s+ of melee combat with you especially when they still need to sheep you. Great they CS'ed your Hammer of Wrath... watch them eat a few more autos while they try to cast SHEEP on you with that x2 push back (also not sure if CS puts them on GCD or not).
This is an IB or Die Scenario for the Mage.
2. Mage plays Cowardly. When you are running AT him he runs away. So you have to use HoJ at 10-13yrds with Leeway to catch the bastard >> He Blinks >> You goblin Mortar to catch him... and we have the sequence I talked about in the video.
Other options for initiating scenario #1 are by using PvP trinket or Bubble Offensively. They have to stop running and try to SHEEP you at some point so you just eat the sheep 6yrd away from them. Trinket / Bubble it and... *See Scenario 1*.
These abilities are on a 5m CD, where as IB is and Cold Snap average out to being 8m CDs. This fight can last 10m...
So you have this dance where you can be in and out of Resist suits if you want (if they are running away forever and Fire Blast on 8s CD is all they have to keep you in combat which only lasts 6s, and they need to stop and running and wand you or get off 1.5s cast rank 1 frost bolt...)
With reck bombs if you want to. Using all manner of items or even your base abilities and TIME to get out those IB's and set the death scenario up.
We SURVIVE. Get out the IB's. Then look at what we have to work with still.
Point is, that these fights can be SO LONG that the idea that you don't have 15m CD's and other items that I NEVER tell you to use in any other duel scenario is ridiculous. We use Skelly Summons on Warlocks and Mages and MAYBE Shadow Priests but they are only really needed for Mages after 6m or more of fighting them.
If you want to hurt yourself mentally. You use Bubble to force out one IB, then PvP Trinket to force out another. Then you wait the 4m or so until Bubble is back and ATTEMPT to explain to me how Mage Boy isn't SUPER dead when he gets hit with Goblin Mortar + Whatever Trinket (Goblin Bomb Dispenser for example, ZG Hero Charm, Tidal Charm, Niffty Stop Watch take your pick).
You had all the time in the world to gear swap. You can't die. If you SUPER don't want to do use resist suits while you wait for Bubble to come back...
And this is all without Skelly Summon Books or Rocket Helm or Gnomish Cloak or Potion usage.
If the mage cannot kill you and you have a bomb threatening enough to force IB's = Mage Loses.
Hard to do that without gear swapping in one package, but the fire resist Holy Reck Paladin CAN. He's the special boy that don't need to gear swap in and out of resist suits.
The price he pays for this however is that you might need x2 Skelly Summon pets if things get frisky to close it out.
What I was saying in the Paladin vs Mage video was "Gear Swap on them and they Die"
What I was saying the Holy Reck Video was "This guy don't need no resist suit, gnomish cloak, rocket helm, mind control gear swapping but things can get interesting because of it. And as such MIGHT need x2 skelly summons to close it out."
100% of the time with that build... what ends up happening is that your "Try" to play "nice" with the mage and if they are STILL alive after everything... if PvP trinket was used a second time then Bubble will be back up next or visa versa. They have no IB's... you still have "No fun allowed" party tricks in you bags.
So I usually just get frustrated... say FINE and out comes Rocket Helm or whatever other flavor of F U I feel like to end it.
I have had times where I just didn't HAVE such items in my bags so I was forced to just Bomb after Bomb after BOMB until my 1 wrath I can do before I get Counter spelled Critted (which is a x2 damage crit) and might be melee crit chance based no idea. It happens often though.
That can also be a thing when you run them out of IB's.
Run run run >> Stop to Sheep >> HoJ >> Blink >> Nade >> Bomb >> Wrath >> Sheeped.
Over and over until finally... wrath says 1500 damage and tell them "sit boy!" Or your bomb high-rolls a little bit harder than usual. I mathed a 1 in 4 wreck bomb. So you can imagine what the 1 in 8 looks like. It tends to not need Wrath to Crit.
Conclusion = If you are unkillable and have a BOMB + Change that can KILL a mage (and thus force out IB's)... Mage cannot win.
Mages ALWAYS have RNG possibility to kill us so all this other stuff with the gadgets and skelly summons, resist suits, and so on is just to make thing play out FASTER giving the mages as little possibility to RNG their way to victory.
That build has more fire resist than you can shake a stick at, it can do the in and out resist suit meta. It has Thick Obsidian.
Ret Reck kills mages if they can hit them but DIE horrifically if caught outside a full resist suit in a sheep.
The Holy Reck is this odd middle ground of don't need no resist suit but CAN die in like 1 in 20 burst attempts... maybe... if bubble, healing potion, whipper root, and Major Recombo trinket didn't exist...
Its touch CAN kill but usually it won't.
It just maintains a VERY high win rate by touching the mage over and over until they die.
@@hongscientific
For Repent Healer in BG is it better to go 20/0/31 or 0/18/33?
You want the in combat healing and the 12% better heals so 15 points go into the Holy Tree or more.
@@pallytime2156 ty
Illumination or guardians favor? Seems guardians favor would be bis right?
Yes. 16s Freedoms on a 20s CD is the world in many matchups@@miguelanessoares7039
You sure that 1 hand wep specialisation increase all your dmg except consecration ? So is like white , retribution aura, sor tiks, hamer ? Cos it’s in tbc like that
I didn't fully test it but it increases damage of SoR, Command, White and Judgement damage ONLY. Which in a PvE context = Nothing. But in a PvP context = Everything.
@@pallytime2156 strange that it does what not it ses. Thx for info !!!
31/20/0 all time best vanilla paladin spec. Amazing for pocketing your friends in bgs and amazing for spamming your tank. I feel like you kinda miss the point of holy shock, having the heal land at the start of the global instead of at the end can be huge. Smoothing over fuck ups is what a good healer does
As a dedicated healer in BG's its "ok". BUT... we have an entire pallycast episode 3 I think talking about why REPENT is better.
I recently got done ranking and healing in Era while ranking and I can say for sure that HS was not needed nor would it have made a difference.
We use Holy Light almost exclusively. Holy Shock heals SO LITTLE that it is SUPER RARE that you can HS someone into a Holy Light (4s total) and they live vs Holy Light Holy Light (5s).
One heals for 800 + 2500. The other for 5k.
In those few cases where I would have used HS, such as there is a Priest running at me and I am running away (he wants to fear you) but I am still in support of a warrior... Cleanse is usually just as good if not better.
HS is terrible. If you have never tried living without then try it, you will see. Some people still love it though.
I will play raid + duel in hardcore
Is there an item to replace the rank13 gear?
I'm thinking Helm of Endless Rage and Gauntlets of the Righteous Champion for max hp 5051
lower hp to 4981
Would an avenger's crown for 0.3crit and 360mp 23 spellpower be good?
Just about anything is good in Hardcore but Avengers is solid and easy to get. Gear that just has STATS is usually competative with range gear. Belt of the fallen crusader, Avenger bits and the like.
Thank you. I'm your big fan for a long time. Please continue to make good videos.
a video about what macros you are using?
Classic WoW paladins don't really use Macro's. Class don't really need them.
Yeah, I know. I sound lazy. But can you post your wowhead gear link? :P
No. Go watch most recent video. There are like 9 of them. Have fun.
Im such an auction house andy when leveling