Check out my website ; www.diagnosedan.com For the Topdon tool used in the video: US:www.topdon.us/collections/pro... UK: www.diagnosticconnections.co.uk/ EU: eu.topdon.com/products/phoeni... For business inquiries ( not for technical questions); Diagnosedan@gmail.com
I love the mistakes at the end 😂😂. This reminds me of myself asking about another video, what if we power off the electric motor in the car, crank the engine and drive. I guess it was the VWagen which had the fault where the parking light was blinking...
I work 9 hours in the workshop. At the end of the day I still enjoy looking under the hood with Dan . Thank you for keeping it logical and simple . More diagnostics please 👍🙏🏽
Not enough staff/ time , no one wants to be a mechanic anymore. My rwd 2019 crafter van was in for egr cooler module. Was an engine and gbox drop job . Took them 6 months . I was furious . They kept putting it back for servicing , pdi and tyre work. I would have done it myself if i had ramps and it wernt warranty. Daft wee laddies want to kid on with their career . Its a ticking timebomb where cars are progressing but the skillset and attitude to put in the effort is waining
@@-robster-robster- Yes, seems to be a problem everywhere. There are massive supply issues worldwide plus the skills and attitude issues you mentioned. Your experience is a bad one for sure. 6 months is shocking.
Marvelous diagnosis, Dan. Can't believe that the dealership was satisfied with only battery replacement and didn't test further. I really liked the hammer testing of the solenoid. The 12V sort of classic starter motor makes sense how you explained but complicates things. Keep up the good work, we are loving your videos. Thanks
@@delijasasevera2212My experience from only two X3s, 2008 and 2011, is that the original batteries last 12-14 years, and about 250,000 km. Quite good, isn't it?
@@delijasasevera2212 No they shouldn’t, you don’t know that the auxiliary battery wasn’t faulty neither does Dan & at the mileage & age I wouldn’t at all be surprised to find it faulty, should they have also diagnosed a starter yes but the customer may have refused further diagnosis or lost faith not allowing them to c/o further checks, perhaps the independent should pay for it as they too couldn’t fix either, ultimately the customer owns the problem not the garage if we worked to your ideology we’d pay for everything & be broke.
The owner probably didnt want to pay for more diag time. 99% of the time its the owner that shuts down the diag process. I had a guy that installed a big sound system in his gf miata for her. Blew a bunch of fuses becasue somthing was wired incorrectly by him. That's the only diag he watned to pay me to do so I replaced the fuses and he went on his way, even though I asked if he wanted me to find out why the fuses were blown. Came back a few days later with more blown fuses yelling and cussing at me. Most customers are like this. Sorry, you have to pay for the diag + the labor to fix it we dont get paid hourly. Diag for me is 30 min = half hour labor. He wanted to cheap out thats his problem. Just to get to the point of the blown fuse. It was a rather large fuse on the ecu took awhile to test was not a simple one in the fuse box.
Great diagnosis, Dan! First time I see a starter motor driving a timing belt haha I've seen premature starter failures recently, mostly in Subaru and Honda cars. Maybe Denso quality is getting worse :(
First time for me too; only the Germans could dream up such a contraption. :) .. I bet it's there to add longevity to the main EV motor, since it has the "start/stop" system. This way, all that repeated starting wear can go towards the easily replaceable starter motor instead of killing the expensive EV motor. Good idea after bad
I see a trend in recent years, even the quality of the big brands is getting worse. Sometimes you just dont know what brand to fit. For this Starter motor we dont really have a choice, it's only available from the Dealership. That said, they can't even supply me with one. The starter motor is on backorder, i've been waiting for 3 weeks now and the car is still waiting for parts😪
It is appalling to me that if the dealership can't diagnose a fault they start replacing parts at will on the customer's cost, even if those very parts don't fix the fault.
but the new battery didn't fix the original fault! And if they'd tested the car before they'd handed it back, they'd have known it wasn't fixed.@@madds6678
@@madds6678 Do you think one very speccific case proves my point invalid? Whether you are a dealer or a customer, you must admit, that customers often get taken advantage of. "Stealership" was not invented for no reason.
Another great diagnosis and fix. It is a little depressing that a company like BMW cannot find a problem like this seeing that it is their own vehicle. More videos please, you're the best.
I think the dealer should have known a 12v starter battery would include a separate motor other than the 3 phase HV MG unit. Main dealers never fail to amaze my. Well done Dan.
Another thorough, informative video. I had no idea that a BMW hybrid has a 12v starter. Another great example of knowing your enemy. If you don't know how it works, you can't fix it. Thanks, Dan!
Moral of the story, keep your thoughts to a basic level, that could fix "big/complex" problems and as usual Dan is right when he said, "get to know how the system works", that's key to fix it!! Good job Dan!👍😎💯
Thanks, Dan, the video was very interesting! Usually there are two coils in the conventional starter relays - a main one (which moves the engagement mechanism and closes main contacts) and a "holding" one. It is very interesting if Denso used a conventional relay on this starter - in fact, there is no need to move any engagement parts there! I would not stop myself splitting apart that relay 🙂!
I'm I the only person that thinks that start stop system is stupid in none hybrid models. This channel and scanner Danner are the best educational automotive channels on RUclips.
I really appreciate your thorough diagnosis in checking continuity on ground and power. Moreover, as you know all vehicles rely on ground and was hoping that was the culprit. Nicely done there Dan!
A friend of mine, shop owner, suggested to knock on head light washer motor instead of buying a new... and the trick solved the problem! Then in my 2011 X3 30d with 246,000 km after changing engine oil, the engine didn't want to start. Died after a couple of seconds. Lots of fault codes were to be found! One code caught my attention (it's a long story), the code that suggested that the EGR valve was got stuck. So I removed the plastic cover... Yes, it didn't move now. I didn't need a hammer this time... moving it by the fingers was enough. Then I was spraying some "oil" that should stand 300°C or something. It has worked perfectly ever since that means the summer. As you see even an amateur can solve problems, but you need some help from videos, discussion fora and friends, and then you need to be able to read the fault codes.
Very smart and intelligent, Starter used when HV battery low and other main reason to save power consumption from HV battery when starting engine. I believe in some early hybrid, Honda uses it similar to this BMW, except it is not plug -in it called IMA...thank you sooooo much
Having spent some time in the past overhauling starter and alternators - That was interesting in that the 'Pull' windings of the solenoid were open circuit but the 'Hold' winding was ok - maybe taking the cap off it would reveal it's failure ? Great diagnosis however and correct in what you say - understand the system to correctly diagnose it - well done
16:05 Another interesting and informative video, Dan. What a surprise. I suppose using a 12v starter motor means you could probably jump start it at least if the 12v battery was dead as well as the high voltage battery. And for our buddies over in the US, here the term HV AC is the High Voltage Alternating Current motor, not your residential HVAC motor! 😂 Just poking fun, no offence!
Very nice video. I am not a mechanic but I have a theory: Maybe the BMW engineers put a starter motor in case the hybrid system had an issue, so the car can still start
I think maybe the nature of the hybrid drive being tacked on to a conventional engine just led to them deciding to leave the conventional system programming intact and just be passed the instruction from the ECU to "start", rather than engineering a different startup sequence.
You should tag in the video F15 40e 21A515! I have been working on one of these all day looking for information on this code and this is exactly what I needed. Ours is a 2016, but we've replaced both batteries as they both tested bad, then we had three scan tools not have the option of "replace/recode auxillary battery* and the primary battery wouldn't register either. So after finally registering both batteries with ISTA with our laptop from 2010, test drove with the exact same code coming back. Took belt drive cover off to discover exact same issue. Thank you!
This guy Dan has great trouble shooting skills. He really teaches you along the way. Great video camera work also. I like Dan's videos. He makes it looks so easy when it really isn't..
We are enjoying your content, Dan. we learn a lot, and we can't wait a month or so for new videos, even aless complicated issues are appreciated. Once a week is good, too.
I would love to see a follow up with this car, excellent though work and well explained, I learn so much from your videos, complex problems can be simple when proper technique is used, also something i do when testing starter systems, is to retest the battery from the starter, and compare the reading that I get from the battery test, showing up faults with the high amperage cables,if there is a fault present, thanks again for a great video
It's been quite a while now bmw engineers are praised again. They provide redundancy in the engine starting system to avoid the car being stranded and not only that, but they also use reputable supplier as well like denso. the one way crank pulley and the easy access for repair also adding up as cherry on top. just wow 😅. good job bmw. and thank you for Danny.
Excellent work, Dan. As far as 12v starters go, I suppose it’s a point of failure but also a point of recovery. As you say, it won’t get stranded by the HV battery going flat, it also means any normal car can help jump start it if both batteries are flat (perhaps it’s been left for a number of weeks without charge). I don’t think a belt is the best way to go though. A chain would be better I think. No need to oil it since it would be doing little work.
"As you say, it won’t get stranded by the HV battery going flat, it also means any normal car can help jump start it if both batteries are flat" Unless the 12V starter didn't work, in this particular case.
@@stevekelly5166 It didn't but normally you would not drive for 6 months without working starter motor - redundancy is good and programmers did a good job implementing it. I have a similar issue regarding redundancy in my car (Skoda) - one of the modules does not see that the car is in park (broken switch) but since there are other sensors the car works just fine. In contrary I saw a clip form south main auto with the same issue in ford and the car would not start or lock the door even though the gearbox computer had good indication of shifter position.
@@greebj If redundancy is great, why doesn't have every car two start motors? Two spark plugs per cilinder (some do), two separate fuel injection systems? Because it is expensive. And expensive does not sell cars.
Being a welder & not a diagnostics guy, I see these for rear subframe repairs. Surprisingly new ones... The dealer repair quotes for rear subframe corrosion are beyond eye-watering - I repair them pretty cheaply (very cheaply) by comparison. Interesting to see this diagnosis - but I'll stick to welding on them, because sod all nobody else wants to. :-)
We do that for waranty reasons, if customer comes back within a few weeks/Months with another part of the starter motor failing. The customer might claim (partial) waranty. If you are a DIY or when working on your personal car this is something you can try
Another great video Dan! I enjoyed that. Great presentation skills. Only thing I missed is you dismantle the relay/ solenoid to show what was wrong with it.
Great work Dan! The solution was easier than it looks at the beggining. Unbelievable that dealership couldn’t find quite simple issue of the problem, especially while pc diagnostics indicate where the problem could it be.
first rule of book rate, mechanic repair scenario. plug-in diagnostic machine. read manufactures, approved repair. complete repair and read next step. next step says return to customer to see if issue persists. if issue persists go to step two of diagnosis. in the meantime, you don't get paid to do anything else. you have to have a customer complaint to enter into the diagnosis system to start getting paid again. move onto the next vehicle to repair and start getting paid.
It is a weird failure of the starter relay. I must have an increase in resistance for it being unable to initially attract the plunger. I am pretty sure you can only replace the solenoid though.
There is a pull and a hold coil in that relay, the pull coil failed. We can't just replace the relay for waranty reasons. If another part of the Starter motor fails within a few weeks/Months the customer might claim ( partial) waranty. If you are a DIY or when working on your own car, its something that you can try
Very interesting diagnosis, Dan! I can understand why several other shops failed to find the problem. You are always doing neat studies. I appreciate your efforts!
I have seen this exact issue but I can almost guarantee it took me much longer to figure out and I definitely didn't go to the same lengths to really narrow it down like you did. I hate working on BMW's.. when they go wrong, they tend to go spectacularly wrong.
The only hybrid vehicles that I have worked on do have a 12V starter. They have the starter at the rear of the engine so this might have escaped me if I was expecting to see a starter at the rear. Well done Dan.
Not even from the hc cargo catalogue? Something like a part number 2339303269. Must be something out there , i know it could be seen as bastardisation but also could have fitted an external solenoid as it doesnt throw a lever its basically just a mounted external solenoid. I would have tried this method as a temp test to see if it worked before ordering the full sheboodle. As there could be a bad connection not allowing enough current to energise the coil properly. . Unless the iron core was sticking to coil body. Anyway shame on the dealer not diagnosing a bad starter motor ... You pay peanuts, you get monkeys
As always, a joy to watch. Thanks for creating this movie. What surprises me is that the fault code states what's wrong, but the BMW dealership wasn't able to fix it based on that error. I guess not a lot of starter relays have failed in the past.
Redundancy is the name of the game, product knowledge goes a long way and older models may not be in newer technicians repertoire, thorough diagnostic practices as you keep reinforcing are fundamental to success, also not being too pig headed to ask others for help helps too
Mercedes C & E class hybrids have both starter & e machine, been fixing this issue for years now not uncommon but yes many people caught out by this including a issue where the starter motor is not known to be faulty by the customer & is brought in for a engine software update & then, will not start as part of the immobiliser learning process is to start the engine via the starter, you then have the difficult conversation with the client explaining their starter requires replacing to which their refuse & state it started fine before it came to you so you own it. We now check every starter works before updating any software to protect ourselves. I believe the other reason it has both motors is when driving in electric mode then kicking down into engine drive you need to start the engine via the starter to ensure a smooth handover from one drive to another as there would be a difference in speeds causing a jerk in drive which can be felt & is the big give away to a n/w starter what most customers actually complain about a gearbox issue.
Another brilliantly explained diagnosis on a complicated hybrid starter system. Like you said research and understanding of the system you're working on is key to diagnose what looked like a very technical issue, but only turned out to be a starter solenoid. Well done, you really put the main dealers mechanics to shame.
@@Diagnosedan Yes you're probably right right, but in my experience with main dealers they just want you to throw money at faults by changing parts and not taking any responsibility for their bad diagnosis. You do things very differently, and that's why you're so good at what you do mate.
I work whole day in cars and attending some training but all those not make stop to watch your videos, your videos are so great 🎉wish to work with you to learn more from you.
I always enjoy your logical thoughts to get to the heart of the problem. A lot of knowledge and common sense ( which these days is sadly lacking in a lot of places) Good onya
Hello, very good content as allways. As sombody else pointed out, the start motor might be for the case of flat main battery or electric motor failure. It is possible that an independent start motor improve confort for passengers and reliability of the electric engine system avoiding it usage for starting the engine. The good thing is that this point of failure does not compromise the car usability.
I also think it might be about HV battery, motor and inverter life. You need quite a lot of current to initially rotate the IC engine and of course HV servo and batteries can take it, but if you can use a way simpler and cheaper system to do it, it might extend Li Ion battery pack (batteries degrade faster when supplying high currents) and HV AC system life. If DC starter or starter battery fails then it's replacement is relatively cheap in comparison to HV AC system. It also adds redundancy to the system.
Very impressive diagnosis. I should like to add that this trend of needing to reprogram batteries when they are replaced needs to die in its tracks. Few things are more anti-consumer and anti Right to Repair then taking a repair that is purely mechanical forcing in a locked down digital component to the system.
It is a surprisingly smart system. It has failover lol. Nice. I mean it is surprising for nowadays when most consumer grade equipment fails outright instead of having failovers or any headroom built in anywhere.
Love all your Videos Professor Dan…..Here in the USA that car would have already been sent to the Crusher…..BMW’s are overly complicated for no reason. And the only one’s who drive them are Twinky’s that have more money than Brain’s….I am so Glad I Retired as a Master Tech in 2018 and Bought a 1970 Chevelle SS for my self and bought my wife a 1966 fastback Mustang. And we are so happy with simple but Amazing Car’s. Keep up the Good work Dan your Generation needs more Technicians like you. 🤘🏼🇺🇸🇺🇸🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧
In this case as you can see it might be overly complicated but redundant - if one system fails other takes it's place and the basic functionality is retained. Old cars are cool and reliable, but they consume more gas and are objectively less comfortable and way less safe in case of a crash. With all those systems new car becomes more complex and naturally less reliable. The diagnostic coverage is also much higher so you naturally get more errors since the same issue in the older car would not be detected at all.
I embrace technology and hate every car without a 16 pin socket🤣 Modern cars bring challenges and keep the job interesting. I would hate to just change oil and adjust carburators😮 You might just as well start working in a factory and repeat the same job all day long.
I believe the reason they put the additional starter motor it's to save the power consumption on the ev battery itself and also like you said it will help it to keep on starting even if the ev battery is dead
Great work. Use to have an old 1964 IHC 1/2 ton truck and the starter would not work. My dad was also a mechanic which I was not quite there yet. Told me to remove starter and take the solinoid of the starter. Toke it a part and flipped the copper disc for contacts, put back together and the starter worked. Just cause it is new it still the same systems for starting. Love your content.
Check out my website ; www.diagnosedan.com
For the Topdon tool used in the video:
US:www.topdon.us/collections/pro...
UK: www.diagnosticconnections.co.uk/
EU: eu.topdon.com/products/phoeni...
For business inquiries ( not for technical questions); Diagnosedan@gmail.com
None of the links gets to a working page ...
I had no luck either.
In a sense old fashioned reasoning in a world where almost everyone's minds are coloured by the supposed modern. Well done.
Thanks for another great diagnosis.
Always pleasure to see your way of thinking and logical step by step tests to get to the root cause.
👑👑👑
I love the mistakes at the end 😂😂.
This reminds me of myself asking about another video, what if we power off the electric motor in the car, crank the engine and drive. I guess it was the VWagen which had the fault where the parking light was blinking...
I can’t believe the dealer and an independent mechanic couldn’t figure that out. The code points you right to the problem. Well done Dan!
Thanks for watching
It literally says it has a starter motor so no excuses for whoever looked at it.
Exaggeration and some bullshit of a video lol
I work 9 hours in the workshop. At the end of the day I still enjoy looking under the hood with Dan .
Thank you for keeping it logical and simple .
More diagnostics please 👍🙏🏽
Thats great to hear, you must love your job👍
@@Diagnosedan You are good teacher.
Diagnose Dan + a BMW = the best part of my week!! You the man Dan!
Or any example of German "engineering".
Thank you very much!
You and South Main Auto are two pearls of the YT diagnose world, keep on doing it !
Eric is a great tech and absolutely worth watching.
Also pine hollow diagnostic, automotive diagnostic & programming,advance level diagnostic, there are many talents out there
The more things get complicated the more they stay the same in some circumstances….. Great diagnosis Dan.
Well said :D
Thanks!
That takes me back many years in giving the solenoid a whack to try and bring it to life, cheers Dan.
It works sometimes 😂
Disappointing that a 'BMW trained' mechanic couldn't resolve this at the dealership. Well done Dan, you did it again! Fantastic bloopers by the way 🙂
More than disappointing... managers should be sacked for inadequate supervision and training !!
Yes alot of bloopers this time🤣
Not enough staff/ time , no one wants to be a mechanic anymore. My rwd 2019 crafter van was in for egr cooler module. Was an engine and gbox drop job . Took them 6 months . I was furious . They kept putting it back for servicing , pdi and tyre work. I would have done it myself if i had ramps and it wernt warranty. Daft wee laddies want to kid on with their career . Its a ticking timebomb where cars are progressing but the skillset and attitude to put in the effort is waining
@@-robster-robster- Yes, seems to be a problem everywhere. There are massive supply issues worldwide plus the skills and attitude issues you mentioned. Your experience is a bad one for sure. 6 months is shocking.
Marvelous diagnosis, Dan. Can't believe that the dealership was satisfied with only battery replacement and didn't test further. I really liked the hammer testing of the solenoid. The 12V sort of classic starter motor makes sense how you explained but complicates things. Keep up the good work, we are loving your videos. Thanks
Owner shouldn't play dealership for just replacement of the battery. If it didn't fix the issue they should be the ones that take the cost.
@@delijasasevera2212My experience from only two X3s, 2008 and 2011, is that the original batteries last 12-14 years, and about 250,000 km. Quite good, isn't it?
I suppose the dealer simply ignored the stated motor fault code and didn’t wonder why there wasn’t an auxiliary battery fault code. Shoddy work BmW.
@@delijasasevera2212 No they shouldn’t, you don’t know that the auxiliary battery wasn’t faulty neither does Dan & at the mileage & age I wouldn’t at all be surprised to find it faulty, should they have also diagnosed a starter yes but the customer may have refused further diagnosis or lost faith not allowing them to c/o further checks, perhaps the independent should pay for it as they too couldn’t fix either, ultimately the customer owns the problem not the garage if we worked to your ideology we’d pay for everything & be broke.
The owner probably didnt want to pay for more diag time. 99% of the time its the owner that shuts down the diag process. I had a guy that installed a big sound system in his gf miata for her. Blew a bunch of fuses becasue somthing was wired incorrectly by him. That's the only diag he watned to pay me to do so I replaced the fuses and he went on his way, even though I asked if he wanted me to find out why the fuses were blown. Came back a few days later with more blown fuses yelling and cussing at me. Most customers are like this. Sorry, you have to pay for the diag + the labor to fix it we dont get paid hourly. Diag for me is 30 min = half hour labor. He wanted to cheap out thats his problem. Just to get to the point of the blown fuse. It was a rather large fuse on the ecu took awhile to test was not a simple one in the fuse box.
One of my fav automotive diag channels. Wish you made more frequent videos but I understand the real world lol
I trie as hard as i can👍
Great diagnosis, Dan! First time I see a starter motor driving a timing belt haha
I've seen premature starter failures recently, mostly in Subaru and Honda cars. Maybe Denso quality is getting worse :(
First time for me too; only the Germans could dream up such a contraption. :) .. I bet it's there to add longevity to the main EV motor, since it has the "start/stop" system. This way, all that repeated starting wear can go towards the easily replaceable starter motor instead of killing the expensive EV motor. Good idea after bad
I see a trend in recent years, even the quality of the big brands is getting worse. Sometimes you just dont know what brand to fit. For this Starter motor we dont really have a choice, it's only available from the Dealership. That said, they can't even supply me with one. The starter motor is on backorder, i've been waiting for 3 weeks now and the car is still waiting for parts😪
That's too bad, I guess in this part of the world it may take about a year in that case😂
I've recently seen a brand new Denso alternator that was defective on a Honda. It got me to double check my diagnosis as it surprised me.
I thought this was going to be dodgy German electrics for sure. Not good when you cant even trust the Japanese parts.
So bad that the dealership couldn't find the cause of this problem. You just diagnosed it like a pro as always!
Yes that was unfortunate
This is my second time watching this. It's fun watching a pro in action. This stuff is better than tv.
Always a highlight of the day, going on a diagnosing journey with Master Dan
We did it together 💪👊
It is appalling to me that if the dealership can't diagnose a fault they start replacing parts at will on the customer's cost, even if those very parts don't fix the fault.
How do you know the battery wasn’t faulty & needed one fitted first before c/o further tests & that the customer didn’t want to pay for further tests
but the new battery didn't fix the original fault! And if they'd tested the car before they'd handed it back, they'd have known it wasn't fixed.@@madds6678
@@madds6678 Do you think one very speccific case proves my point invalid? Whether you are a dealer or a customer, you must admit, that customers often get taken advantage of. "Stealership" was not invented for no reason.
@@madds6678was the stop start battery tested? Was the 12v starter motor tested? Seems to me they gave up too easily
@@paulwoods7857 I agree especially for such a new car and considering the DTC mentioned the belt driven starter.
Another great diagnosis and fix. It is a little depressing that a company like BMW cannot find a problem like this seeing that it is their own vehicle. More videos please, you're the best.
In all fairness i'm pretty sure that most Bmw technicians would have diagnosed it right the first time
I think the dealer should have known a 12v starter battery would include a separate motor other than the 3 phase HV MG unit. Main dealers never fail to amaze my. Well done Dan.
Thanks for watching and taking the time to leave a comment its really appreciated
Another thorough, informative video. I had no idea that a BMW hybrid has a 12v starter. Another great example of knowing your enemy. If you don't know how it works, you can't fix it.
Thanks, Dan!
Exactly, sometimes we need to do some research on new systems or systems we dont see very often
DD is one smart tech . BMW replaced the auxiliary battery, and did not fix the problem.
Logic and proper diagnostic steps did . Bravo Dan .
Thanks for watching
Another great diagnosis, Dan! 👏👏👏 You make it look so easy! 😜
It not always is, in this case you really need to do some research and after that its quite easy to diagnose
Outstanding Dan! I really enjoy working together.
I'm glad you were here to help😂
Just as with Eric O. You are the last but best resort.
You'd make for a excellent teacher also!
Thanks for watching
Long time no See on RUclips Dan!..
I'm Extremely happy because I'll learn what a start/stop system is! Lets! go🎉
Thanks for watching again
Dan is not only a good electrician/diagnostician, but also a skilled mechanic!
In my country there is not really a difference, one guy does it all😂
@@Diagnosedanmorning Don my e90 give me this code 2a2d
You can send me a number please are you in the US 🇺🇸
Moral of the story, keep your thoughts to a basic level, that could fix "big/complex" problems and as usual Dan is right when he said, "get to know how the system works", that's key to fix it!! Good job Dan!👍😎💯
Thanks, Dan, the video was very interesting! Usually there are two coils in the conventional starter relays - a main one (which moves the engagement mechanism and closes main contacts) and a "holding" one. It is very interesting if Denso used a conventional relay on this starter - in fact, there is no need to move any engagement parts there! I would not stop myself splitting apart that relay 🙂!
In some cases they want the old part back, and now i can still put it all back together 🤣
I'm I the only person that thinks that start stop system is stupid in none hybrid models. This channel and scanner Danner are the best educational automotive channels on RUclips.
I really appreciate your thorough diagnosis in checking continuity on ground and power. Moreover, as you know all vehicles rely on ground and was hoping that was the culprit. Nicely done there Dan!
Thank you
In some cases, things aren't so complicated like we think..! Thanks again Dan..! Very informative video.
The hammer trick on the starter never fails 😂😂.
Good job as always Dan.
A friend of mine, shop owner, suggested to knock on head light washer motor instead of buying a new... and the trick solved the problem!
Then in my 2011 X3 30d with 246,000 km after changing engine oil, the engine didn't want to start. Died after a couple of seconds.
Lots of fault codes were to be found! One code caught my attention (it's a long story), the code that suggested that the EGR valve was got stuck.
So I removed the plastic cover... Yes, it didn't move now.
I didn't need a hammer this time... moving it by the fingers was enough. Then I was spraying some "oil" that should stand 300°C or something. It has worked perfectly ever since that means the summer.
As you see even an amateur can solve problems, but you need some help from videos, discussion fora and friends, and then you need to be able to read the fault codes.
"percussive maintenance"!! aka give it a smack
@@NiddNetworks "kinetic adjustment"
Only when trying to film it😂
Great job in finding the cause. The other technicians aren't skilled like you are. We need DiagnoseDans in this world.
Thank you
That’s some great detective work and you made that seem very easy! This is why I’m a dedicated watcher of your videos Dan! Thank you for sharing!
Thanks for watching my videos its really appreciated!
My first video to understanding about start stop in hybrid really enjoyed
Another great video Dan .. love the way you work through these issues 👍
Thank you very much
Very smart and intelligent, Starter used when HV battery low and other main reason to save power consumption from HV battery when starting engine. I believe in some early hybrid, Honda uses it similar to this BMW, except it is not plug -in it called IMA...thank you sooooo much
Thanks for the great comment
This was once again a great example of amazing knowledge and logic. Keep it up!
Thanks!
Brilliant as usual Dan, the way you keep up to date with technology is incredible so envious of your ability to diagnose,
Thanks!
Having spent some time in the past overhauling starter and alternators - That was interesting in that the 'Pull' windings of the solenoid were open circuit but the 'Hold' winding was ok - maybe taking the cap off it would reveal it's failure ? Great diagnosis however and correct in what you say - understand the system to correctly diagnose it - well done
In some cases they want the old starter back, so i didn't want to pull it apart to far🤣
Your miles ahead of others with your logic paths, I find it so helpful in this new system
Its great to hear the videos are useful
16:05 Another interesting and informative video, Dan. What a surprise.
I suppose using a 12v starter motor means you could probably jump start it at least if the 12v battery was dead as well as the high voltage battery. And for our buddies over in the US, here the term HV AC is the High Voltage Alternating Current motor, not your residential HVAC motor! 😂
Just poking fun, no offence!
Ah, yes hvac i didn't even realise it could mean something else😂
This shows that the biggest issue is alot of people dont slow down and look at the information they have in front of them . Nice work
True
Very nice video. I am not a mechanic but I have a theory: Maybe the BMW engineers put a starter motor in case the hybrid system had an issue, so the car can still start
Yes but why it attempts to start the car first with 12v starter if this is there for as a backup?
@@MatrixTheme maybe because the big electric motor from the hybrid system draws a significant amount of power
I think maybe the nature of the hybrid drive being tacked on to a conventional engine just led to them deciding to leave the conventional system programming intact and just be passed the instruction from the ECU to "start", rather than engineering a different startup sequence.
Thats one of the benefits
You should tag in the video F15 40e 21A515! I have been working on one of these all day looking for information on this code and this is exactly what I needed. Ours is a 2016, but we've replaced both batteries as they both tested bad, then we had three scan tools not have the option of "replace/recode auxillary battery* and the primary battery wouldn't register either. So after finally registering both batteries with ISTA with our laptop from 2010, test drove with the exact same code coming back. Took belt drive cover off to discover exact same issue.
Thank you!
Great work Dan once again. I never knew they had a backup starter motor either! 👍
Now you know😁🤣
This guy Dan has great trouble shooting skills. He really teaches you along the way. Great video camera work also. I like Dan's videos. He makes it looks so easy when it really isn't..
We are enjoying your content, Dan. we learn a lot, and we can't wait a month or so for new videos, even aless complicated issues are appreciated. Once a week is good, too.
😁👍
Another award winning diagnosis and repair!
Thanks!
I would love to see a follow up with this car, excellent though work and well explained, I learn so much from your videos, complex problems can be simple when proper technique is used, also something i do when testing starter systems, is to retest the battery from the starter, and compare the reading that I get from the battery test, showing up faults with the high amperage cables,if there is a fault present, thanks again for a great video
Its my pleasure, i:m glad you liked the video
It's been quite a while now bmw engineers are praised again. They provide redundancy in the engine starting system to avoid the car being stranded and not only that, but they also use reputable supplier as well like denso. the one way crank pulley and the easy access for repair also adding up as cherry on top. just wow 😅. good job bmw. and thank you for Danny.
Reputable brand but it still failed 😂
@@Diagnosedan hahaha 😂 bmw ordered the second quality
Hi Dan, nice to see you again! Thank you!
If this were my car, i would replace the relay with a used one. No need to buy a new starter motor.
Thanks for watching
Excellent work, Dan.
As far as 12v starters go, I suppose it’s a point of failure but also a point of recovery. As you say, it won’t get stranded by the HV battery going flat, it also means any normal car can help jump start it if both batteries are flat (perhaps it’s been left for a number of weeks without charge). I don’t think a belt is the best way to go though. A chain would be better I think. No need to oil it since it would be doing little work.
"As you say, it won’t get stranded by the HV battery going flat, it also means any normal car can help jump start it if both batteries are flat"
Unless the 12V starter didn't work, in this particular case.
@@stevekelly5166 It didn't but normally you would not drive for 6 months without working starter motor - redundancy is good and programmers did a good job implementing it. I have a similar issue regarding redundancy in my car (Skoda) - one of the modules does not see that the car is in park (broken switch) but since there are other sensors the car works just fine. In contrary I saw a clip form south main auto with the same issue in ford and the car would not start or lock the door even though the gearbox computer had good indication of shifter position.
The redundancy is great. A dealer service dept being unable to identify which of the 2 systems has failed, is not.
@@greebj If redundancy is great, why doesn't have every car two start motors? Two spark plugs per cilinder (some do), two separate fuel injection systems? Because it is expensive. And expensive does not sell cars.
The point still stands though in this case. Have you ever seen a Prius with a flat hybrid battery?
Being a welder & not a diagnostics guy, I see these for rear subframe repairs. Surprisingly new ones... The dealer repair quotes for rear subframe corrosion are beyond eye-watering - I repair them pretty cheaply (very cheaply) by comparison. Interesting to see this diagnosis - but I'll stick to welding on them, because sod all nobody else wants to. :-)
Great job, more work for you than 😊
Great job, but I am puzzled as why to replace the whole starter instead of replacing the solenoid ( relay) alone?
I think you can't buy the parts anywhere in this case. Unfortunately.
We do that for waranty reasons, if customer comes back within a few weeks/Months with another part of the starter motor failing. The customer might claim (partial) waranty. If you are a DIY or when working on your personal car this is something you can try
Just the knowledge of how this system works is worth the watch.
Another great video Dan! I enjoyed that. Great presentation skills. Only thing I missed is you dismantle the relay/ solenoid to show what was wrong with it.
He's outsourcing that to Ivan, for a no parts required sequel.
In some cases they want the old unit back and i didn't want to dismantle it to far😂
@@johnnyblue4799he hates working on Bmw😂
@@Diagnosedan That's why he needs more of them... to get used to working on Europe's finest cars.
This guy reminds me of my late brother-in-law only he work on jaguar cars for over 40 years before he passed one of best mechanics I've met.
I'm sorry to hear about your brother in law.
Love watching your videos Dan. I'm learning so much about the different systems fitted to new cars. Many thanks buddy 😎👍
Its my pleasure, glad you liked it
Great work Dan! The solution was easier than it looks at the beggining. Unbelievable that dealership couldn’t find quite simple issue of the problem, especially while pc diagnostics indicate where the problem could it be.
Some technicians overcomplicate things😉
When the dealer can't fix their own cars, you know they're too complicated.
No, you know dealers are fucking incompetent. That's my experience.
Seems to me the dealers have to make their money somewhere
No,they have BAD mechanicker....🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮
My experience.
first rule of book rate, mechanic repair scenario. plug-in diagnostic machine. read manufactures, approved repair. complete repair and read next step. next step says return to customer to see if issue persists. if issue persists go to step two of diagnosis. in the meantime, you don't get paid to do anything else. you have to have a customer complaint to enter into the diagnosis system to start getting paid again. move onto the next vehicle to repair and start getting paid.
And they don't pay and train their staff properly because it's a race to the skills bottom
Once again it was proved that there are no shortcuts tests tests until a conclusion is reached. I learned more about the hybrid thank you Dan.
Its a pleasure
It is a weird failure of the starter relay. I must have an increase in resistance for it being unable to initially attract the plunger. I am pretty sure you can only replace the solenoid though.
not only increase in resistance
some kind of short or open in coil
not enough magnetic field
There is a pull and a hold coil in that relay, the pull coil failed.
We can't just replace the relay for waranty reasons. If another part of the Starter motor fails within a few weeks/Months the customer might claim ( partial) waranty. If you are a DIY or when working on your own car, its something that you can try
@@Diagnosedan That makes sense! Thanks you for your time explaining.
@@Diagnosedancan you purchase just the solenoid? Is it available ?
Great diagnosis. Loved the end part. Just shows us subscribers how much effort you put into doing your uploads many thanks super Dan 👍🏼
Very interesting diagnosis, Dan! I can understand why several other shops failed to find the problem. You are always doing neat studies. I appreciate your efforts!
Thank you
Yeah it’s been a while Dan🎉
One video every month for the last few years😊
I have seen this exact issue but I can almost guarantee it took me much longer to figure out and I definitely didn't go to the same lengths to really narrow it down like you did. I hate working on BMW's.. when they go wrong, they tend to go spectacularly wrong.
I guess you say "hate" because you dont see them very often and have poor accessibility to technical information and parts.
Wow. Been waiting ages for a video from you. Always love your diagnosis methods
Ages........thats long😂
Beautiful diagnostic as always Dan… well done 🫡🫡🚨🚨
Thanks!
The only hybrid vehicles that I have worked on do have a 12V starter. They have the starter at the rear of the engine so this might have escaped me if I was expecting to see a starter at the rear. Well done Dan.
Yep Mercedes have both
Some have most don't
This guy is incredibly brilliant.
🤣🤣
Guess you can't buy that solenoid by itself...
Nope
Not even from the hc cargo catalogue? Something like a part number
2339303269. Must be something out there , i know it could be seen as bastardisation but also could have fitted an external solenoid as it doesnt throw a lever its basically just a mounted external solenoid. I would have tried this method as a temp test to see if it worked before ordering the full sheboodle. As there could be a bad connection not allowing enough current to energise the coil properly. . Unless the iron core was sticking to coil body.
Anyway shame on the dealer not diagnosing a bad starter motor ... You pay peanuts, you get monkeys
Lol,, yeah I would have knocking myself out trying to find a workaround to replace JUST the solenoid !! @@-robster-robster-
Your the man Dan,will stick to my 2011 Mondeo 161 k miles.
Hi Dan …. Been watching you for years from uk ….. always good to see a master at work and master of his trade … keep up the excellent work
Thanks for watching my videos for all these years, you have no idea how much this is appreciated
Sofa I am concerned you are the best electrical car technician I have seen in my life presently😊😅
Thanks for watching
As always, a joy to watch. Thanks for creating this movie. What surprises me is that the fault code states what's wrong, but the BMW dealership wasn't able to fix it based on that error. I guess not a lot of starter relays have failed in the past.
Thanks for your comment
Redundancy is the name of the game, product knowledge goes a long way and older models may not be in newer technicians repertoire, thorough diagnostic practices as you keep reinforcing are fundamental to success, also not being too pig headed to ask others for help helps too
Dan, great content, modern day car are getting so complicated, they need Dan the man to fix them!!
😁🤣
Thank you Dan for showing us the trouble that even the so called "experts" could not solve.
Thanks for watching
Mercedes C & E class hybrids have both starter & e machine, been fixing this issue for years now not uncommon but yes many people caught out by this including a issue where the starter motor is not known to be faulty by the customer & is brought in for a engine software update & then, will not start as part of the immobiliser learning process is to start the engine via the starter, you then have the difficult conversation with the client explaining their starter requires replacing to which their refuse & state it started fine before it came to you so you own it. We now check every starter works before updating any software to protect ourselves.
I believe the other reason it has both motors is when driving in electric mode then kicking down into engine drive you need to start the engine via the starter to ensure a smooth handover from one drive to another as there would be a difference in speeds causing a jerk in drive which can be felt & is the big give away to a n/w starter what most customers actually complain about a gearbox issue.
Thats one of the benefits of that 12V starter! Good thinking 👊
great job Dan. been doing BMW for 30years and still doing it, makes me feel bad that the dealership couldn't diagnose the vehicle properly..
In all fairness i'm pretty sure that most dealer Bmw technicians would have diagnosed it right the first time.
Good to see you again dan
Beautiful diagnosis as always
Thank you very much
Another brilliantly explained diagnosis on a complicated hybrid starter system. Like you said research and understanding of the system you're working on is key to diagnose what looked like a very technical issue, but only turned out to be a starter solenoid. Well done, you really put the main dealers mechanics to shame.
In all fairness i'm pretty sure that most dealer Bmw technicians would have diagnosed it right the first time
@@Diagnosedan Yes you're probably right right, but in my experience with main dealers they just want you to throw money at faults by changing parts and not taking any responsibility for their bad diagnosis. You do things very differently, and that's why you're so good at what you do mate.
You are one of the top professionals in RUclips !
Thanks!!
I work whole day in cars and attending some training but all those not make stop to watch your videos, your videos are so great 🎉wish to work with you to learn more from you.
I Love watching Dan work! I always feel a little smarter after each video!
Great!
you have a gift of being able to explain problems in a that is not confusing. great video
Thats great to hear
Great practical analysis, pity they don’t teach basics like this.
Keep up the good teaching.
I will, thanks for watching
Old school hammer trick to get a starter motor to work. Priceless..
I always enjoy your logical thoughts to get to the heart of the problem. A lot of knowledge and common sense ( which these days is sadly lacking in a lot of places) Good onya
Thanks for the kind words
Hello, very good content as allways. As sombody else pointed out, the start motor might be for the case of flat main battery or electric motor failure. It is possible that an independent start motor improve confort for passengers and reliability of the electric engine system avoiding it usage for starting the engine. The good thing is that this point of failure does not compromise the car usability.
I also think it might be about HV battery, motor and inverter life. You need quite a lot of current to initially rotate the IC engine and of course HV servo and batteries can take it, but if you can use a way simpler and cheaper system to do it, it might extend Li Ion battery pack (batteries degrade faster when supplying high currents) and HV AC system life. If DC starter or starter battery fails then it's replacement is relatively cheap in comparison to HV AC system. It also adds redundancy to the system.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts
Very impressive diagnosis. I should like to add that this trend of needing to reprogram batteries when they are replaced needs to die in its tracks. Few things are more anti-consumer and anti Right to Repair then taking a repair that is purely mechanical forcing in a locked down digital component to the system.
The story has 2 sides.......you still can replace the battery yourself but you need the right tools
Diagnose Dan is the Don of Diagnosis!
🤣🤣👍
To fix it, you need to know how it works. Good job Dan and thanks for sharing👏
Exactly!
It is a surprisingly smart system. It has failover lol. Nice. I mean it is surprising for nowadays when most consumer grade equipment fails outright instead of having failovers or any headroom built in anywhere.
The solenoid has two windings. One heavy one to pull it in and a lighter one to hold it when the motor is running. The heavy winding is open.
Exactly!
Love all your Videos Professor Dan…..Here in the USA that car would have already been sent to the Crusher…..BMW’s are overly complicated for no reason. And the only one’s who drive them are Twinky’s that have more money than Brain’s….I am so Glad I Retired as a Master Tech in 2018 and Bought a 1970 Chevelle SS for my self and bought my wife a 1966 fastback Mustang. And we are so happy with simple but Amazing Car’s. Keep up the Good work Dan your Generation needs more Technicians like you. 🤘🏼🇺🇸🇺🇸🇬🇧🇬🇧🇬🇧
In this case as you can see it might be overly complicated but redundant - if one system fails other takes it's place and the basic functionality is retained. Old cars are cool and reliable, but they consume more gas and are objectively less comfortable and way less safe in case of a crash. With all those systems new car becomes more complex and naturally less reliable. The diagnostic coverage is also much higher so you naturally get more errors since the same issue in the older car would not be detected at all.
I embrace technology and hate every car without a 16 pin socket🤣 Modern cars bring challenges and keep the job interesting. I would hate to just change oil and adjust carburators😮 You might just as well start working in a factory and repeat the same job all day long.
I believe the reason they put the additional starter motor it's to save the power consumption on the ev battery itself and also like you said it will help it to keep on starting even if the ev battery is dead
Thanks for watching!
Amazing diagnostic once again. As 330E G20 BMW hybrid owner this was very interisting overall.
Thank you
Great work. Use to have an old 1964 IHC 1/2 ton truck and the starter would not work. My dad was also a mechanic which I was not quite there yet. Told me to remove starter and take the solinoid of the starter. Toke it a part and flipped the copper disc for contacts, put back together and the starter worked. Just cause it is new it still the same systems for starting. Love your content.
Great fix!
Once again - What an amazing job Dan!! That said, I think it's awful that BMW themselves couldn't help the owner of the vehicle in the first place.
Yes that was unfortunate
Very good again Dan! It's the coil in the solenoid that got shorten therefore it cannot act as a electromagnet.
Thanks for watching