"Gender Dysphoria is FAKE:" Philosophy Mommies Fighting 😢 (& The Left STILL Has a Misogyny Problem)
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- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024
- Abigail Thorn from Philosophy Tube made a video a few months back about the systemic failures of the NHS in providing timely trans healthcare. She proposed that "gender dysphoria" is a bunk diagnosis, and now Twitter has run with that and become very nasty to her over this take. Even Natalie Wynn from ContraPoints weighed in, saying "gender dysphoria is real :)" before later deleting the tweet. Luxander goes into how not only is Philosophy Tube CORRECT on this issue, but how the reaction and backlash is indicative of leftists' hypercritical response to women in particular.
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It's just like when people feel physical pain and want medicine for that pain, and then get mad when someone points out that physical pain can be a subjective experience and different people have different levels of pain tolerance. The very concept that pain is not an objective thing you can measure with a pain-o-meter makes them angry cause they feel like you're telling them they weren't actually in pain, but what you're actually saying is that the concept of pain is so fuzzy and impossible to define concretely that you shouldn't be forced to "prove you're in pain" to get meds. You should be able to just say, "it fucking hurts" and get treatment
Okay one thing that I think is a source of a lot of tension here is people wanting there to be a clear and tidy distinction between gender dysphoria as a pathology/diagnosis("constructed") and gender dysphoria as a term to describe the feelings of distress about your body as a trans person("real") and I think the reason this is hitting a nerve with so many people is because I think Abigail is kind of saying that "Gender Dysphoria" is a term constructed by cis doctors whether its in a diagnostic setting or not.
Because it kind of is. Abigail is looking at the root of the pathologization of trans care. "Gender Dysphoria" as a term was literally coined by cisgender clinicians.
Trans people existed LONG before this. I really think she's trying to get at the fact that the way we describe being trans in the current day is so entrenched in the medical institution and when she says "gender dysphoria is fake" shes NOT saying the feelings we've come to use that term to describe them are fake, shes saying that so much of the framework we use to discuss being trans has been constructed very recently by the cisgender medical system.
And to me, this kind of deconstruction is kind of critical. I think it's getting to the heart of shit.
one thing I really really fucking struggle with as an indigenous person is seeing white trans people over and over use two-spirit and other racialized third gender identities as "proof" that trans people always existed....and then that's all they engage with racialized gender identities. They use us as a "gotcha" and then drop the subject altogether and actively misrepresent us because two-spirit does NOT fit into the white/settler definition of "trans".
Like as a native person I think of myself as both trans and two-spirit, and a secret third thing(the culturally specific to my nation third gender that were still doing work to relearn teachings about, two spirit is a modern pan-indian term) and they feel like different things(with similarities, but not the same)
And I think my upbringing as indigenous really informed why I struggled to realize I was experiencing gender dysphoria. Firstly because the emphasis in the community is that social dysphoria was secondary/not important. Like "just because you like X gender thing, or are drawn to X gender social role, doesn't make you trans". Physical dysphoria was THE defining thing that makes you trans. Secondly the emphasis on binary dysphoria. The fact that I do feel some connection to my assigned gender at birth makes sense and actually is important in a lot of teachings around two-spirit identity, but does NOT make sense in a white definition of transgender. Thirdly, and this is the most funny to me but like the white/settler definition of gender dysphoria frames physical dysphoria as SO painful. Like its described by a lot of white trans people as the worst thing they're ever experienced. And I never connected to that and I had a realization a few years ago like...no shit that for these middle and upper class white trans people that's the most painful thing they've experienced.
And it's real pain....but it was just like "holy shit" when i realized that it makes sense physical dysphoria wasn't the most painful thing that happened to me(I lost both my parents and my sister by 25) and a rough estimate for the number of people I've known who've died is like 30-35.
LIKE....okay I think there's a good analogy between transmedicalism and the construction of the "indian"/native american.
Indigenous people existed before colonization, we existed before we were ever called "indians", natives etc. But current day? It's the way we define ourselves, it's become entrenched in our lives. It's even the only framework we have currently to define and work for our rights. Like I'm canadian and in the constitution under the indian act is where all my rights are defined and kept.
For trans people, transmedicalism has become so synonymous with the way we define ourselves, the way we describe and advocate for our needs, cares, and rights that we've become not very able to define ourselves outside of language that's only existed for less than a century for the most part and literally was developed by the cis status quo.
Just like how indigenous people existed as something else before "the indian" was defined, trans people existed before the term "transsexual" or "transgender" was defined.
And I think Abigail is get at the root of that when she's challenging the validity of the term gender dysphoria.
Sorry to write like a fucking essay that meandered more and more as it went on lmaooooo. But this one got me thinking before going to work hahahahah.
@@ectoplastiic nah you stated it perfectly well.
Right but just because the concept of gender dysphoria is recent, or coined by cis people, that doesn't make it fake or inappropriate. I think the term actually fits an experience within our societies very well, and our position should be that: 1) not only is it real, it's so widespread that most people experience it to some degree at some point in their life (cis or trans), and 2) that as such, it should not be used as a barrier to medical care for trans people (just like it isn't for cis people who seek out boob jobs, gyno surgery, hormone treatment, and other forms of gender-affirming care).
I love your comment. I think you really captured her long form argument from "133 emails."
Ages ago, Abbi did a video titled "Suic!de and Ment@l He@lth" that I keep going back to while watching this debate. There, she talks quite a bit about identities being "medicalized" through a medical establishment that defines "unhealthy" as a condition that "impairs normal function" and the injustice that comes from "hetro-" or "cis-" (or whatever) "-normative" doctors trying to define what normal is.
Also, Abigail Thorn has said, in earlier videos, that her father's a surgeon. So, like, she's seen the medical mindset up close and behind-the-scenes, and she probably has a different context for understanding Medical Gatekeeping than people who only see their physician once or twice a year.
OMG, this changes everything. And frankly, not in a good way.
@@k.lambda4948 what do you mean?
Gatekeeping is good, Abagail is AGP only homosexuals can be transsexual.. just another political activist whining on about trans rights it's all theatre
Typical white male privileged background.
I look at gender dysphoria like starvation. If you've gone without food for so long that your body can't function like it would if you are well-nourished, that's a legitimate medical issue, but nobody goes to the doctor to be diagnosed with starvation just so they can get a prescription for food. Gender dysphoria can also be a legitimate medical issue, but since people should be able to access the treatment whether they have it or not, getting diagnosed with it is as superfluous as getting diagnosed with starvation.
I see it more like pregnancy it's medical but not a disorder
Like so many things with our community, we can be very quick to lash out based on past trauma instead of engaging with what is essentially an academic point that is trying to question traditional frameworks
Why tear down oppressive systems when we could spend all our time in petty bitching and infighting?
I'm cis gender so I don't have a personal take on how gender dysphoria is defined and experienced (i e., a medical category vs personal feeling). It does seem to me that this is somewhat analogous to many neurodivergent folks' relationship to ADHD and ASD.. we are considered "disordered" by the psych field, but the 'disorder' is really the incongruence between our needs and the larger society's structure that doesn't support those needs. I have to be diagnosed with the "disorder" of ADHD to get meds that help me focus and get by as a worker under capitalism, but I'm not broken. I hate having to basically say that I am in order to get the support I need. Similarly, I think trans folks should be able to get the support and care they need and want whether or not they experiencing dysphoric feelings, without having to "prove" anything.
I'm really hopeful that psychology will be so much better in the decades to come as we ourselves have more influence on research and practice ❤️
How can you be a cog in the machine if you aren't a standard size and fit?! Machines need standardization! If you don't fit neatly into one of these two boxes, it's your fault, not the system's. Stop making the system look bad! We've put a lot of time, energy, and money into convincing people the system is perfect, so don't expect sympathy from those around you... They'll just be upset with you for making them think about the system and how the system maybe doesn't actually work well for you or them. And they don't get special treatment to deal with the system so why should you?!
End scene.
I totally agree with your point: you're not disordered, our capitalist system is so rigid and inflexible that you have to be medicalized to be able to function within it. In other contexts, "ADHD" traits can be incredibly positive and beneficial to the point of an individual with them being seen as gifted, not disordered.
Much love, and thanks for your insight!
All of psychology is a scam. Every single diagnosis in any way related to mental health or neurodivergence is a form of mast cell activation syndrome. You have two separate immune systems, and doctors NEVER talk about the second because it's too complex to study effectively. Serotonin and dopamine are NOT IMPORTANT. It is ALL about histamine. Autistic and ADHD people are the way they are because of too much histamine. All the "treatments" for it are useless because they directly increase histamine levels
Gender dysphoria is not something people want or choose, it is a disorder for that reason. Getting wrongly diagnosed or worse self diagnosed is harmful. Hence the safe guards to prevent mistakes.
I think the tension comes from the fear of losing rights and gains we only just acquired. There is a fear that gender affirming care would be “demoded” to simple esthetic changes, at the same level as a bbl or a face lift. In the UK or Canada, there are a lot of non-gendered essential procedures that are not covered already (eg almost everything eye or tooth related), and coverage only seems to be shrinking every year. The idea of laser facial hair removal being covered for a cis woman is a pipe dream here. So removing the gate-keepy aspect would likely remove coverage, so only ultra wealthy people get the care they need, along with sending the message that it isn’t “real” care.
It’s the tension between real-world consequences and what would be ideal in a better world. imo.
I'm from Argentina and trans healthcare is completly free AND you don't need any diagnosis to access it. Some people need trans health care and some don't and they understand that the only person who can know if we need it is ourselves.
Gender dysphoria? Just something some trans people feel, never was it mentioned with my doctors nor had I something to "prove" to them. They believed me and assure me I was in control of my transition and I could stop anytime if I ever wanted to. This is a possibility, it can be considered medically necessary and approached in a different way
Eye care and dental care are separate in the US, too, which I've always found incredibly odd as someone who could literally go blind if I don't regularly get my eye pressure checked. It seems like preventative care for eyesight and dental problems (which can result in infections that kill you) would be just as important as everything else that's covered by general medical coverage. And for people who excuse it by saying "not everyone has eyesight problems so why should we have to pay for your glasses", not everyone gets cancer, either. And everyone's risk for both increases as you age. Same for dental.
Yes, I think that is the fear-that if it is not seen as an acute distress based on something that is not just an aesthetic want but a need, then affirmation care wouldn’t be covered by whatever medical system a country has in place, and a new form of monetary gatekeeping would replace the other (not that monetary gatekeeping for gender affirmation care isn’t already a big issue, but that it might be seen as not a life threatening thing that needs to be treated and paid for.
I absolutely get what they’re saying-I can get behind the philosophical argument. Right, someone shouldn’t need this diagnosis to get gender affirmation treatment. Right, someone doesn’t need a particular diagnosis to say that they are trans. Right, someone doesn’t need to feel that they have to even get gender affirmation care if they feel it’s not necessary for them and still be a trans/ non-binary/ agender etc person. In a world where there are plenty of competent, skilled surgeons and people who know how to maintain healthy HRT therapy, and that the cost would be covered just by taking the individual’s self-knowledge as fact, then that would be fantastic. Is that something we should work towards-absolutely. Would I prefer that my very acute distress caused by my actual gender and the anatomy of the body I was born and grew up with didn’t have this stigma as being a mental disorder? That too would be fantastic, but we aren’t there yet.
The infrastructure needed for that ideal societal shift in how we think about being trans isn’t there. I feel our distress would be thought even more frivolous than cis people already think it is. I honestly have no solution, but we as a society need that shift, because if we don’t shoot for the ideal, we will get even less progress. Incremental improvement is probably what we will end up with if anything, but we ought to keep the ideal in mind and strive for it. We seem to be sliding backwards and it’s horrifying. The cis transphobes already think what we experience isn’t reality based. I hate having to defend my distress as real-my true gender as true-It’s exhausting. Anyway, apologies for this text wall vent and sprawling sentence structure. 😓
I remember having my first appointment with a gender clinic, after having waited for over a year (and I got lucky because most people wait for much longer over here in the Netherlands), and when I mentioned dysphoria, my cisgender therapist told me something along the lines of "well, we're here to figure out if you have that."
That line cut really deep, because it told me that they didn't believe the fact that I *knew* I was feeling dysphoric. Me saying I needed to change *my own body* to be comfortable was not enough.
It's very clear to me that Abby was referring to that definition of dysphoria, which so often gets used against us, and to keep *life saving treatment* behind a closed door that only opens if our therapist decides we're trans enough.
It's so dehumanising to reduce us to a clinical diagnosis ..
It is a necessity to stop people who don't have dysphoria from getting harmful life changing surgery.
The *"life saving treatment"* trope is getting pretty old now.
@@keyboarddancers7751
1) my comment is a year old
2) it literally is life saving treatment, it's not a "trope"
@@mikewade777 What amazes me is that anybody can be so deluded that they think they can approach a bona fide medical service and receive life-altering treatment simply because they asked for it!
I was recently told by an NHS nurse that "an accurate diagnosis isn't actually that important in mental health care". What she actually meant, I suspect, was that the psychiatrist I was trying to get referred to is too busy to deal with my concern I've been misdiagnosed, but it was still maddening to hear. Diagnosis is crucial to evidence based medicine. It's also used in law and professional standards. But I still agree the diagnostic criteria should be open to question.
Misdiagnosis is a huge problem. I will give you an example. I was diagnosed as having PTSD and I received CBT in that process. And I probably had PTSD, but I am also most likely autistic, and giving a person with autism CBT without knowing they are autistic does not work. Our brains are wired differently. My therapist was frustrated with me because I "overthink" things. And the things that I was focused on weren't productive to my therapy (at least that was what my therapist thought). But people with autism are narrowly focused and we have trouble focusing on things that we do not want to focus on. So without being properly diagnosed I received substandard, and actually harmful, care.
@@2cleverbyhalf Yeah, I've found CBT absolutely infuriating for exactly that reason. I just can't fit my brain into the paterns it seems to want to fit. Sorry you went through that.
Now, I do consider dysphoria as real, but the way it's being used clinically is wrong. Because dysphoria is a mesh-up of a bunch of unrelated consepts that are only grouped together because they eventually add up to "your gender is fucked up and you're upset about it", but the fact is that from a practical standpoint this can be *extremely* relevant to trans people's lives. I do not think that the terminology that genderfuckers use to talk about their experiences should be deemed invalid, but I also don't think that we should go about that and not aknowlage the fundamental flaws in the idea. So, yeah, that's my take on the whole thing.
7:50
YES. I didn't know I didn't want to pretend to be a man until I was afforded the opportunity to try anything else. please never stop saying this.
you don't need to know what it feels like, nor do you even need to have dysphoria to know how good euphoria is and how good that is for you all around.
Exactly!
Me too
*emotional*
I don't think this is a reading comprehension problem. I think the misunderstandings are trauma-based. It's very easy to do when triggered (and I use that in its actual clinical context), because someone in that state isn't in a logical headspace. It would serve us tremendously to process our trauma, whether through traditional therapy or on our own. Hard to do when we're being constantly traumatized, but an attempt must be made for the sake of trans liberation.
I think a big part of this discussion is the point Lux made abt trauma, moreso than any academic arguments. A lot of ppl lack the capacity to self-reflect & empathize w/ perspectives they disagree w/, esp if they're traumatized. There are perspectives not worth entertaining of course (like fascism or white supremacy), but trauma does make ppl brittle & less able to sustain scrutiny. So when traumatized ppl encounter academic arguments that retrigger those emotional traumas, they lash out, clam up, & double down rather than open up, empathize, & allow their minds to change.
That said, switching from one to the other is way, *way* more easily said than done. Using myself as an example, I really struggle w/ ADHD positivity & w/ ppl who feel happy abt or liberated by their diagnosis, bc for me my diagnosis didn't enable me to access necessary tools but instead shunted me towards a special education model that was deeply wrong for me. So when I encounter ADHD positivity, I feel deeply resentful & even envious at the ppl who are able to find joy & power in a domain where I've only found pain. & While I do have legitimate academic issues w/ some strains of ADHD positivity & self-diagnosis, it's deeply disingenuous of me to put forth those academic arguments when my actual issue is emotional. So when I started working on this w/ my ADHD counselor, I was very direct to outline the distinctions btwn my academic arguments & my root emotions. But even that step took a lot of really excellent therapy to learn to do, & there's still the whole diffcult journey of healing ahead.
I think a lot of trans ppl in this dogpile on Abigail are/were refusing to do that (emotionally difficult!) work of differentiating their arguments from their pain. & Frankly? Idk a solution to something so human & yet so deeply embedded in trans culture. But if a trans reader of this comment had a personal response to Abigail's points, I'd encourage them to take a step back & try to feel out where (emotionally) it is they're actually hurting. There's no societal answer to trauma, but we can individually do better.
-- Vivi Vendetta
(they/them)
It DOES exist. Should it be required for treatment? No. But I dunno, being suicidally depressed about your voice since 12 isn't just "sadness'. That is not at all a fair or accurate description of the absolute torture I've been through.
exactly. it feels incredibly minimizing
At what point in either this video or Abigail’s original was the feeling of dysphoria minimized to sadness? Specifically Abigail’s video when she decides what word to use you see many other words to describe it as a way to show that dysphoria is the combination of countless feelings and experiences. Couldn’t think of a more well rounded explanation of it. The clip from her livestream seems like she’s just picking one feeling out of countless. Her original video doesn’t boil it down to one feeling though, quite the opposite. Judge her point after hearing the whole thing, not from responding to one person in a livestream where she does a behind the scenes dive into that video
It could fall under depression.
Depression usually, but not always, has a reason.
I think you’re missing the point - gender dysphoria is a term created by cisgender clinicians to describe a phenomenon they observe in trans people. The feelings that gender dysphoria refers to are absolutely real. I don’t know how many diffeeent ways Abigail or the others who agree with this take can explain that. Your feelings are real and we are not debating that.
That said, trans people have existed *long* before gender dysphoria was in use as a term, and we will be here *long* after the medical community moves on to the next term they’ll use to pathologize and gatekeep us.
15 years ago, if twitter was in its current form and someone on there said “gender identity disorder isn’t real”, I’d imagine the knee-jerk reaction among trans folks would probably look pretty similar to this. “What do you mean it’s not real? I obviously experience a disorder of my gender identity. It’s ruining my life!” Yet here we are in 2023, with no one using the term anymore and everyone recognizing it as a made-up and defunct concept. because we understand the difference between the term clinicians were using to describe a phenomenon and the phenomenon itself. But for some reason it’s impossible for us to interrogate the same exact medical frameworks when we’re looking at it in its current form. “Gender dysphoria” (again, the *term*, not the phenomenon it describes) is just another one in a long line of terms that doctors will throw out when they find different diagnostic (read:gatekeeping) criteria that they like better for whatever reason.
What you feel and the effects it has on your life are real. It cannot be more real. No one is denying that.
What isn’t real, is the diagnosis. This made up word (for lack of a better term, I know all words are made up) is used to other trans people. Like luxander says, some cis people have the exact same feelings, but they don’t have to go through this diagnosis. They get the healthcare they need to alleviate these feelings without question. And yet, when trans people say the exact same thing, we need a psychiatric diagnosis. Only because we don’t fit into the frame cis civilization has built
What we are saying, is that everyone should have access to all of the healthcare, social recognition and safety, WITHOUT using any diagnosis. And if we get rid of “dysphoria” as a “trans illness” everyone would be able to get the care they need
It's SO frustrating seeing this play out. As a trans woman who has experienced the feeling of dysphoria, the suicidality, the anger, the dissociation. It's real. As she said. But when cisgender doctors get to define what your experience with a diagnosis that will decide whether or not you get to have the care you know you need and are aware will help, it is inherently gatekeeping. That is the critique. If you cannot engage with this without reactionary and angry responses, do not engage with it. When the wounds you're licking prevent you from speaking thoughtfully, take the time to heal and come back later. This discussion is not about your feelings. It is about how CISGENDER medical professionals get to decide for trans people and trans patients if their trans is trans enough for them.
I think another frequent issue that is happening again with this is that your reaction to something can be fine but it doesn’t necessarily make the person who caused it responsible.
Hearing “gender dysphoria isn’t real” can cause panic and pain in people used to having their experiences invalidated and ignored, but that doesn’t mean someone saying that phrase in a context where that are not ignoring those parts is wrong. You are valid in having an emotional response to something, but it isn’t on everyone else to be accommodating of every possible response in all circumstances.
It’s somewhat similar to trigger warnings. Giving a warning for a possibly triggering topic of conversation is a reasonable accommodation. Not talking about these topics in a small group conversation where one of the participants has a known issue with a particular subject is a reasonable accommodation. Preventing taking about a topic in any capacity because it might be triggering to some people that have an ability to opt out is not a reasonable accommodation.
I think there is a nuanced debate that someone could have with the points Abigail makes, but “you are ignoring the feelings and pain I have about my own gender” is not actually engaging with the points she is making.
I struggle mainly because what I've been referring to as dysphoria has been a persistent discomfort with my own body that's been ongoing since before I could speak - not feelings of jealousy or envy. I feel and work on _those_ sometimes also and so I kind of added them to the bucket of things I call 'dysphoria' - sometimes calling the one 'somatic dysphoria' and the other 'social dysphroia'. But then I hear the conversation trending in the direction of 'we need to abandon the word dysphoria altogether' and focus on envy, jealousy, and so on - trying to resolve the psychological issues.
I agree that dysphoria should not be used as a means of gatekeeping people's access to medical care.
On the other hand, it very much does feel dismissive - gaslighty, even - of the kind of discomfort I am experiencing for people to reduce it to purely psychological causes when it simply hasn't _been_ psychological - it's a sensory issue with the way my body feels, that I've always had. To be told not to use a certain word to describe it that I've been using for years just because other people who are trans don't experience that particular experience.
We're a diverse community - we should be able to discuss our experiences. Not just be told we're hallucinating things or that the various things that cause us suffering aren't real. Not everyone's experience with gender and their bodies is the same.
It's like we're trying so hard to distance ourselves from pathology that those of us who experience dysphoria in the sense I've been using it - perhaps not the same as the medical term - or whatever we want to call it going forward, if we're going to call it something else - aren't allowed to discuss our experiences. Because some people are saying that literally any discussion at all of experiencing that _is itself_ gatekeeping.
Just because we've pathologized the shit out of it doesn't mean that the alienation of not living your life on your own terms isn't extremely detrimental to your health and wellbeing. That's all dysphoria is it's an extremely normal human emotion but because trans people are the subject of course the conversation has to be a convoluted mess. Can't just be people experiencing personhood.
Thank you for this video. I thought this was Abby's best work. There have been some of her philosophy 101 videos that were not what I would consider well done from an academic level, but this video she made an argument with her own life as a salient example. It was a beautiful piece of work.
I am not trans. I am someone who was misdiagnosed with PTSD years ago. I cannot blame my therapist for this because the problem I have was not covered under the DSMV IV, I am basically autistic. I am self diagnosing this because I have not decided whether it is worthwhile to seek diagnosis and I don't know if I care about the validation of a system that has basically ignored my struggles for 50 yrs. There are 4 generations of women on this planet that have had our struggles ignored because we did not present challenges to the system. Since we struggled silently the system basically did a gigantic EFF U to all of us. So when Abby says this is a category error, and people that are entrenched in this system get really mad (and I am thinking of Poppy and Zena as an example of this) it is because their self schema is being challenged. But just look at my life as an example. I have literally suffered for decades and the system didn't include me in a diagnosis that could have helped me make sense of my struggles, helped me understand my brain just works differently, and that I am not broken. These things are important.
The same goes for trans care. Trans people are not broken. They are not disordered. They do not have mental illness. The things that are making trans people mentally ill is how society treats them. Society is fucked, trans people are just fine.
The waiting times on the NHS for gender health care is in my opinion only getting worse. It is a minimum of 5 years for 1st appointment but I know from reading articles online that some Trans people have been waiting much longer for just their first appointment. There are some who were referred by their GP way back in 2014 who haven't been seen yet. You also got to remember this is just to be assessed for gender dysphoria which is over 2 appointments a process that can take at a minimum a decade and then maybes up to another year after that before you actually get access to blockers and HRT. Add to that a minimum of 3 years before you get bottom surgery. It is even worse for trans men and non binary FTM peoples who want to have bottom surgery have to be done over two operations which that process can take years on the NHS.
I think Abigail's approach isn't unwarranted. The idea that the DSM is flawed is not new at all, and several schools of psychological thought, like multicultural, feminist and post structural perspectives, point this out all the time. If you want to research more anarchistic psychological approaches, narrative therapy and post structural approaches are a good place to start. Vicky Dickerson's work especially is good for this. We are questioning power structures and who has control over societal narratives more and more in the field.
“If you’re an expert in a flawed model…”. A perfect summation of the issue.
The way I see it, is that Abigail is interrogating the system that the idea of Gender Dysphoria is built upon, especially in the UK; we are unnecessarily pathologised in this country. Abigail isn't saying that the feelings that arise from being Trans aren't real, she's asking where that comes from, because it is almost guaranteed that the reason we feel the way we do is because society dictates how human beings should look, behave or identify regarding an arbitrary category we were placed into when we were born.
I still think that some people would feel dysphoric about particular aspects of their body, even if society were to shift it's focus to a more humanitarian one but I think that the use of it as a diagnostic criteria is unhelpful at best and a deliberate hinderance at worst.
Reminds me of how homosexuality was included in the DSM as a mental disorder until years later when people were like "oh wait... maybe it's not a mental illness after all..."
I feel like if people watched the full video she put out, it's pretty clear she doesn't think trans people's feelings are invalid. In the context of the entire video it seemed clear to me that she was talking about unfair and unnecessary obstacles to trans people getting care.
I totally relate to the anarchist's frustration toward people who cannot wrap their heads around the idea of interrogating the systems that they have internalized. I'm also autistic and find it deeply ironic that we are accused of being inflexible and "rule following robots" when my experience has taught me that neurotypical people are much, much more attached to their internalized conditioning than pretty much every autistic person I know.
"I came here to make matter-of-fact statements and exert charitability. And I'm all out of charitability."
I love this and I loved Abby's video when I first saw it. As someone who doesn't really experience a lot of dysphoria and also doesn't really fit on the binary, it was extra validating to me to see someone who *does* have that distress and IS binary trans talking about how bullshit our gatekeeping perspectives on gender are.
I'm scheduled for my "bottom surgery" in just a few days (technically a medically necessary hysto that I never thought that I would have access to)- thank the gods for my physical symptoms that made me "worthy" by medical standards. And this is the natural effect of gatekeeping. People praying for straightforward diagnosable diseases because it's their only hope at accessing care...
It would be more accurate for her to say gender dysphoria is a medical construct rather than it doesn't exist, because saying that in my country, the uk, where they have taken away hormone blockers, the nhs is free, and i waited years for access, that she could afford.
I think at least part of the problem is that people are bad at reading. It's a very common thread between a lot of these dramas. Somebody makes an argument, people misread it, then they interpret their misreading as uncharitably as possible and that's what gets spread around.
What I don’t understand is how we went from “you don’t need gender dysphoria to be trans and shouldn’t need a diagnosis to access medical care” to “gender dysphoria isn’t real.” Also, I’m a little frustrated that this has me agreeing more with Natalie than Abigail.
The first naturally leads into the second. If you don't need dysphoria to be trans, why should you need it to access transition care? Who made up the idea that you needed a specific condition that meets certain criteria in order to access transition? Who made up the concept of gender dysphoria? It wasn't trans people, that's for sure
@@LuxanderReal You’re litigating the part that I stated as a given: “you don’t need dysphoria to be trans and shouldn’t need a diagnosis to access medical care.”
The argument Abigail is making is that the terminology is intrinsically tied to medical gatekeeping, and should therefore be dismissed as a construct. The problem is that there’s no consensus on what language should replace it, other than “feeling sad,” which most people who experience what we call “dysphoria” feel is an inadequate and dismissive description of our experiences.
You missed the part where I asked who invented this concept in the first place. Trans people seemed to be able to articulate our feelings before this medicalized term was inflicted on us by cisgender gatekeepers
@@LuxanderReal Believe it or not I actually paid close attention to your words, but nothing in your response leads me to believe you paid attention to mine, which is your right. I in no way expected or required a response in the first place. Have a great day!
I'm trying to help elucidate why questioning the medical diagnosis logically leads into a questioning of the existence of the concept. There might be utility to having *a* word that describes the totality of existential anxiety that goes into being trans, I just don't think the medical term should be that word
I think Abigail is right on a philosophical lvl. But I do think that their is some rhetoric and political use to the concept of gender dysphoria, in a similar fashion to the "trapped in the wrong body" narrative. Is their such a thing as gender dysphoria, as a unique medical concept, that's exclusive to some trans people? No. Is it useful to explain to your mom or a doctor, or a politician why you need that surgery, and your insurance should cover it? Yes. It absolutely sucks that we live in a world like this, where we have to justify our own existence medically to receive healthcare. But since we do it might be more pragmatic to say that "everyone can experience gender dysphoria but when cis people do it's always covered" which gets the same point across. Not holding it against Abi though since she is right, and not being optically perfect is not a mistake (You're right no one should have to tread on eggshells because some people might misunderstand your point, especially if you've explained it in detail already).
That's a very US-based concern though. It's both better and worse in the UK. Worse because the classification of "Gender Dysphoria" as a clinical diagnosis is what entitles trans people to transition for free on the NHS. The NHS is only allowed to cure illnesses. So, getting rid of the classification would in theory mean that people can no longer get gender-affirming care on the NHS.
Better, because right now there is ridiculously excessive, abusive, and expensive segregation of gender-affirming care as Abi describes in her video, which is meaning that, while everyone in the UK have long waiting times for care, for trans people those waiting times are multiplied by, like, 30 times.
I admit...I would be a little knee jerky as well. Just because for me, knowing how I feel...if I didn't have the term gender dysphoria to define it...I would feel even more lost and confused than I do.
Sometimes these words and phrases might not be perfect and maybe there needs to be a way to examine the origins and see if another phrase or word would fit better. A way for us to pinpoint what is going on in our heads without the medical gatekeeping.
I agree with you that we do need these conversations. But I think Twitter with it's limited character usage makes it hard to fully flesh out thoughts and ideas is not a great place to do it. So it makes it hard to help people understand, they aren't being attacked, it is the medical gatekeeping that is being questioned.
Like education. Obviously I am pro public education. I think most people are. But, to question how the system of the schools works or doesn't work, to question if we are doing it the right way when it seems we are failing our kids every single day, is also worth exploring.
I know it can be frustrating when you feel like you have to dumb down concepts for people to understand what you actually are saying.
But I can understand the knee jerk reaction because when I first heard about this...my first reaction was to think she was going against the Trans community, not the cis doctors who first came up with the idea.
I was told about it on fb....as I deleted my Twitter when Elon took over. I knew it was going to be a shit show and wanted no part of it.
I am not sure honestly about what to think myself. Because having the term has helped me to define what it is I feel and I am not sure I would have been able to figure it out without the term.
But, do I also understand it is being used to deny our community care and rights? Yes I do. That part of it sucks.
For what it is worth:
The enlargening umbrella and discussions around being trans, the broadening use of the descriptor trans, rather than pan, demi, or other gender encompassing terminologies are likely difficult for some older transpeople (including me, but i am catching up ;)) who were out before insurance covered procedures, saw the reasoning(admittedly flawed) that allowed us to get coverage. Our experience was medical-ized by changing the dsm to reflect the reality people were experiencing in a way that would get our care payed for. I had this same arguments as many today, and railed against needing a diagnosis, but without it, everything was out of pocket. I bought hormones and hormone blockers online, and it was a huge expense. Once the care was covered and treatments were monitered with blood work coupled with increasing experience of medical care professionals, it was safer and less of a financial burden.
As these were the arguments used to secure care, many of us are likely alarmed that everyone being trans might mean no one is trans in the eyes of medical professionals.
I live a remote existence and have had chance social encounters leading me to realize people were using words differently today, which led me to this channel through the google to find out why. I have been enjoying the content and commentors, thank you all for your insightful ways of processing reality.
I am personally thrilled about how free people are today to express themselves. Our simple ideas of hormonal or surgical alterations may be further upended by applied genetics in the next generations who may have an altogether different take on the human form as well as the ability to alter it. We live together in exciting times! May humanity survive our own shortsightedness and may no transfolk be left behind.
Cheers!
In the US, my roomie got HRT with no dysphoria diagnosis. That's how it should work... for adults. But Idk how that would work for minors, & they definitely need access to gender affirming care too.
This was a really good watch, and it's nice to see someone else experiencing a bit of anarchist exasperation. I think an additional factor in this diagnosis discourse is the influence of assimilationist activism. In America, the gay and lesbian "movement" sought things like marriage rights with a "born this way" strategy. Because they were successful in obtaining marriage rights, the framing of something like homosexuality as an inborn trait gained some cachet. So, being "born trans" and thus naturally and necessarily having gender dysphoria is legitimized in the eyes of those who want to maintain the structures of the status quo. Desire and stuff like gender euphoric feelings are viewed with suspicion because they're not immutable or in-born, and they open the door to actual change and liberation.
Conformity can be seen as a safer bet. I don't think it's a safer bet at all, but exploring that line of thought necessarily involves cracking open the radical Pandora's box. Radical critique can then be seen as "harming" the movement for an expansion of privilege in our white supremacist, cis-hetero patriarchal system. We "go too far".
I think there's some missing context with Natalie's tweet. "Gender Dysphoria is real :)" is an exact quote of Brianna Wu. I think she is being intentionally shitposty here.
Missing the context of Natalie's tweets to misrepresent her is an Olympic sport at the point.
To be fair, I don't know that she isn't mocking Abigail for starting a whole discourse by being too vague. Natalie's shitposts are hard to parse without her purposefully comedic delivery. Still it seems like Natalie to find Brianna Wu's smiley face post funny for being laughably vague and overconfident.
Or maybe she is referencing Joanne Rowling, otherwise I sure hope she is actually shitposting cause the alternative is her intentionally pouring oil in the fire and that would be pretty sucky on her part
The majority of medics in Britain won't go anywhere near trans related treatments leaving only a very few specialists willing or able to carry out appropriate clinical assessments and then negotiate the strict funding criteria for treatment as codified in the National Health Service's National Institute for Health and Care Excellence guidelines hence the multiple years long waiting lists - between 2.5 and 5 years - for an initial appointment. Given the very well documented financial constraints under which the NHS continues to function, this situation is not likely to change any time soon.
YES to the point of communication being a two-way street
Also, people saying "she should've explained it better" after her tweet and response video instead of watching THE WHOLE VIDEO ESSAY she put out 🤦🏻
The concept of trans exclusive gender dysphoria is kinda ridiculous. When a cis woman removes facial hair, gets feminizing plastic surgery, breast augmentation, etc. is that not to feel more comfortable and feminine? Is a cis man who hates himself for looking too feminine not gender dysphoric? Is that not a mismatch between assigned sex and gender presentation?
The problem with a trans specific psychological diagnosis is that it's used to gatekeep healthcare that cis people have free access to. People change their primary and secondary sex traits for a myriad of reasons. CIS PEOPLE GET THE EXACT SAME PROCEDURES THAT TRANS PEOPLE GET ALL THE TIME. They don't need a special diagnosis. Also, people who medically transition are not all in the same headspace. Some would not meet the diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria. The trans experience is framed as one of inherent tragedy and mental illness, which is not everyone's experience.
Abby talks a lot about informed consent in that video, i.e. letting trans people make their own medical decisions without requiring a diagnosis. There is no such thing as "trans healthcare." There is only healthcare and doctors who unscientifically and negligently refuse to provide it to trans people.
If trans people want to use the term gender dysphoria to express their lived experience, I think that's fine. But Abby's point was that pathologizing all trans people and medically gatekeeping them based on a diagnosis is ridiculous and evil. It's like when homosexuality was in the dsm. I hope the diagnosis is replaced with something that better serves the community, and is no longer used for gatekeeping, othering, and oppressing.
As for Natalie, this kinda disappointed me. But it's not like it was a terrible take, it just makes me sad that she seemingly threw Abby under the bus. Abby's video was incredibly emotionally impactful and important. It's like DID Y'ALL SERIOUSLY WATCH THE WHOLE VIDEO AND PICK THAT ONE OPINION TO BASH HER OVER?? SHE'S CHANGING THE WORLD, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE TODAY 🤔
Such a good comment that perfectly expresses everything that I also believe.
This is so strange to watch from the outside... I am a trans man in Argentina. I am on hrt and I was not officially diagnosed with gender dysphoria. I never had to.
I got an appointment ar a hospital with an endocrinologist (it was a group, actually, the endo, a psychologist, and a social worker, they specialise in trans patients). It was come first serve first, so I showed up a thursday morning and they asked a few questions. (Do you smoke? How long have you known you're trans? How old are you? Have you ever been treated in this hospital before? Have you got a support system? How did you figure out you're trans?) If they hadn't liked any of my answers, they couldn't legally deny me treatment, at best recommend I go to therapy. They did recommend therapy for my depression. The questions were mildly invasive but they put no pressure on me to respond. They had me sign some papers (informed consent form, a list of expected and possible secondary effects, that I had to take, read, and sign at home to make sure I wasn't preassuerd into it), have my blood drawn and come back with the results. I did. Some bureaucracy and insurance shenanigans ensued. About two months after my initial appointment (actually a bit longer, but hat is on me for doing everything as last moment as possible. Could have been about just a month) I had my first shot. It was a public hospital. Since then I lost my insurance and had to move to a small town with, somehow, no endocrinologist. I still get my shots regularly and I don't pay a cent, the hospital here even pays for my trip to the city every three months to get my prescription. All I pay for is a sandwich when I'm there. The government also has to cover any surgeries I want to get done, fully, travel included.
There is no mention of "gender dysphoria" in my hospital file, only o HRT.
The problem is people listen to react instead of listening to actually understand
This is why I respectfully disagree with ms. Thorn: if you provide a gender affirming care to a cisgender person, like: mastectomy for a man with gynecomastia, or facial hair removal to a woman with hirutism, and they have been misdiagnosed, than the stakes are quite low if they're misdiagnosed; they might have reveived a treatment they could do without, but it won't affect their quality of life in a negative way. With transgender gender affirming care - it very likely will.
How so? Gender-affirming treatments are just as reversible (or not reversible) regardless of the gender of the person they're being given to. The rate of regret among trans patients for gender-affirming healthcare is also extremely low. There's no actual data to suggest that trans people receiving gender-affirming healthcare is damaging to their mental health often enough for it to be a reason to gatekeep it in the way that healthcare systems currently do.
No cis person is going to be asked invasive questions about how they dress or what kind of sex they have or be required to present their gender any certain way to receive gender-affirming healthcare. Like, no cis woman will go in for medical care and risk being denied because she wasn't wearing a dress or eyeliner that day, you know? I think it's fair enough to want ANYONE about to undergo major surgery or even less invasive gender-based healthcare to talk to a therapist first, regardless of their assigned gender at birth, but if that's the case, it should be EVERYONE and should be more about emotionally prepping the patient than dissecting their brain and deciding if it's pink or blue enough to receive treatment. (TBH in an ideal world we have a more robust system of mental healthcare *anyway*, non-gender-related surgeries can *also* be traumatizing for patients and a little therapy beforehand could benefit pretty much everyone, anyway.)
This is not a discussion of the intrinsic qualities of transness, but of its intersection with fundamentally and deeply flawed healthcare systems existing within a neoliberal framework and its broader patriarchal/white supremacist/imperialist foundations.
What an appropriate topic to bring up the rejection of unjust hierarchies (anarchism)!
Lux, I'll have to make a point to watch more of your videos (subbed).
Where I live lgbt people are at risk of encountering nationally sanctioned and clinically normalized conversion therapy, so as far as that's concerned there is good reason to question the validity of this pathological model (my term idk if it actually means something specific within the field) of psychology in conceptualizing and addressing GID / gender dysphoria (as Luxander said even he was diagnosed with GID in the States despite the diagnosis being dropped in the update from the DSM4 to DSM5, and affirming practitioners moving away from the diagnosis with the pragmatic exception for health insurance purposes). Psychological practitioners and clinicians in my region of the world are using CBT frameworks to disrupt patients' "false beliefs" which they believe formed in lgbt folks from negative social experiences or early experiences of abuse sexual or otherwise, with these experiences and beliefs pushing lgbt people away from normal(ized) sexual and gendered identification (binary cis-het) and practices to "deviant" ones, and therefore can fully dismiss international standards as a conspiracy from the west (yes this is also antisemitic) and completely rationalize and justify pathologizing our genders and sexual orientations.
So while its heuristically and pragmatically useful to work within these models in an affirming way by extending the assumed psychological healthy baseline experiences of identity and disposition to include diverse backgrounds and season it up with cultural and sociological nuance, as well as highlighting the failures and horrors resulting from conversion therapies, we ultimately need to just step out from these frameworks entirely to start looking for frameworks that are less permissive for misuse and reinterpretation.
Obviously I'm not someone who's qualified to say what is possible here, im pretty sure I've heard that this question of how to pragmatically treat psychological distress while not overextending frameworks to pathologize arguably more normal negative experiences and diverse cultural inclinations etc. is a point of frequent discussion among social workers, psychological/psychiatric practitioners and academics/theorists.
First off: I accept any person identifying themselves as trans, no need at all for dysphoria. I also share some of the criticism like the artificial gatekeeping associated with it.
But: I come from the medical field (and it traumatized me, so Im not really biased towards it...) and a diagnosis is necessary to treat a person. Or rather for insurance (univ. healthcare in germany) to pay the bills. And I think it is good that it is this way. Money is a scarce resource and there are so many treatments that dont help or are not medically indicated (explicitly NOT speaking about trans healthcare) that would drain insurance companies.
The argument as I understand it was "Would a trans person be happier if they transitioned?". Which to me is pretty similar to a breast augmentation in cis women or other cosmetic surgeries. Both the ICD-11 and the DSM-V are based on defining what deserves treatment, what is an illness/disorder/condition. And at least its not an illness any longer...
The system is not perfect, but as I see it its the only way to guarantee a scientifically based, efficient (both monetary and personnel wise) treatment for people in need. The most important motto in traumacare is: "Treat first what kills first" and dysphoric people are (per definition) at a higher risk. I dont know how to phrase it any better, its again, not at all meant to take away any persons validity!
Then again we have no informed consent in germany, which really skews the perspective.
@@RubyDooby-xh4lj Thank you! This really makes me happy! I didnt think I would do the concept justice and just sound like a transphobe or transmedicalist, none of which I am…
You’ve articulated the experience I have when trying to discuss things like this with my more liberal friends and family in a way I never could describe clearly. I tend to just get really frustrated which doesn’t help convince anyone. So thanks for that.
im so glad im disconnected from twitter enough that i did not even know any of this was going down. i remember the whole 'contrapoints cancellation' debacle back in the day and i think that was some of the most infuriating discourse ive been witness to in my day.
the way people twist trans women's words against them is absolutely abhorrent. i do think some things could be worded better but in the end, that shouldnt matter! and should never be a reason to tear someone apart. the lack of any kind of rational thinking drives me up a wall.
i understand a lot of us are operating from a place of trauma, god knows i am. being trans in this world right now is incredibly traumatizing! but we cannot use our traumas against other trans people in this way, we cannot be tearing each other apart like this. we already face enough vitriol from those outside our community
the ad hominems disguised as calling the "take" bad are everywhere
I can finally say this: omg...
Gender Dysphoria is a cisgender means to medically determine who receives care and who's trans under cisgender rules on who's acceptably trans. I never had gender dysphoria and would not have qualified medically as a trans person.. because i didn't meet GID NOR GD STANDARDS. By that logic, I was always cisgender... And so it gives fodder for folks to think i was never noncis... That i was always cis.
The Medical understanding of gender Dysphoria is that one's body and brain are broken. You're essentially coded deformed mentally.
When i saw the clinical text with respect to gender Dysphoria, i was flabbergasted how gender Dysphoria is defined: an internal distress within the bodymind where the body and brain are internally disordered. Essentially, they made a term to pathologize the body of anyone who's sex characteristics and gender identity don't match cisgender dyad standards.. you have a mind and/or brain that is disabled for not alligning with cisgenderism and dyadism
And... We need to connect gender dysphoria diagnosis with disorder of sex development... Because essentially the two diagnoses are intended to medicalize one's body and brain.
Gender dysphoria and disorder of sex development pretentiously otherise trans and/or intersex populations for not having sex characteristics and/or gender identity within cis dyad parameters..
Long story short, Twitter sucks. Maybe we should keep in mind that the platform doesn't allow for constructive arguments when we read tweets.
I feel this so hard as an aspie. I need a friend weird like me, man. One atypical person I really have trouble understanding and communicating with right now is my OCD boss, bless her. I always feel like I'm a stressor. She'll be doing something urgent and need help and she'll say, "Hand me the yellow comb." I'm like, "What- which type of comb? What shade of yellow?? There are multiple ways to interpret that sentence!"
(We're dog groomers. She's hella more experienced.)
But I'm not the only one, an allistic coworker also has trouble sometimes. I think I'm the worst for it though, but I will always be 100% honest with her. She's ride or die.
Gender dysphoria as an everyday term to describe the mental health issues and general negative feelings caused by gender incongruence: perfectly fine, it's definitely helped many trans (nonbinary, genderqueer, & intersex people too) people describe their experience, including me! Just don't act like it's the only trans experience, and we're good.
"Gender dysphoria" as a clinical diagnosis that is considered to be a requirement for being trans and thus something only trans people can experience: trash, only ever used to hurt us, denies us autonomy, and excludes many of us. Is actually currently being used to deny me healthcare personally :(
Philosophy folks are wild.. Abigail and Natalie fighting over the metaphysics and ontology of gender Dysphoria...
If it isn't real, then why do we need medicine for it? I think if getting trans healthcare through the NHS weren't such an inefficient and drawn out process, this wouldn't even be a conversation.
So the problem is the "separate but equal" healthcare processes. If a cis man has a self-reported low libido and dissatisfaction around not being able to build adequate muscle, he can get some testosterone prescribed by the GP without additional psychological screening, whereas every single trans man needs to be psychologically scrutinized by government employees? It's inherently discriminatory, placing an *additional* burden on trans people in an already-inefficient system
@Luxander absolute agreement there but i dont think we should throw out GD as a concept. I know my opinion isnt popular but im like very very moderately TM in that i think GD is what protects us from transness being seen as a choice. It's different than just being sad. And it takes like five minutes to diagnose once you're in front of a psychologist who isnt secretly a conversion therapist. Just fix the wait times! And add some gatekeeping for the cis people who want hormones because you're right that it isn't fair at all. Make them get a diagnosis. I mean, its prescriptions drugs we are all after, it would make sense to need a diagnosis.
All she had to say was "as a diagnosis". Thats all it was. Those 15 charecters were too much?
Maybe she expected people to be able to pick up on the entire hour of context before she started talking about the gender dysphoria term on its own
@@LuxanderReal For a single reply tweet? No, i disagree.
@@Super-BallSharp again, I guess people who put dozens of hours into their content and tweet from the context of that content maybe expect people to pay attention to the hours of work they've put in and figure people don't base their entire opinion off of tweets
@@LuxanderReal Well then it sucks to be them!
I think this discussion might be mitigated with the distinction:
gender dsyphoria diagnosis
vs
gender dsyphoria feelings.
Im under the impression that abagail makes a strong case that the former is fake, and is willing to let the latter be real. And the conflict is coming from these concepts sharing an abbreviation?
I need to keep watching....
At 9:52, lux refers to the latter as distress between their gender internally and their gender externally.
The former has a whole different definition
At 11:00,
lux captures the the core thing:
At the moment in the UK,
the gender dsyphoria diagnosis is NOT an extended and ongoing amount of gender dsyphoria feelings.
I am new to the subject and working to learn and understand so my opinion doesn't matter at this point. My thoughts / worries are the risks and experiences in the UK and the United States are very importantly different because of our BS health care system. The Far Right is pushing the idea that "gender disphoria" doesn't exist in order to get insurance no longer to pay for it. We do not have a right to any health care in the US. I honestly do not have a well thought out opinion on the DSM yet but there is a huge push here by the Right to deny access to any care one for *any gender affirming care. I see that as causing real harm. On a purely practical basis. Health care is hella expensive in the States. Most people will not be able to afford to self pay. It may not be perfect but is it the path of least harm to guarantee health care to a vulnerable population?
In Missouri the emergency rule states you can't get hormones unless you've been diagnosed with gender dysphoria for 3 years, so this diagnosis is also being weaponized to deny us care
You are 100% right there shouldn’t be a five year waiting list. There shouldn’t have to be confirmation from three different psychologists or psychiatrists proving that you are what you are. I got very lucky. I went into an endocrinologist, and I don’t have to prove anything. I said I want my inside to match my outside and that was enough. I got my hormones immediately after my first blood test and I didn’t have to prove jack. And I live in Oklahoma for crying out loud. I got very lucky.
It's amazing how differently these sorts of treatments are governed depending on where you happen to reside in the united states. The whole place seems like the left hand has no idea what the right hand is doing. Doesn't really engender much confidence in american medical practice.
I absolutely hate when people try to speak for me. Do not. 😠
Cis guy here so take this with a grain of salt but this reminds me of the debates.. should say "Debates" about gay people 20 years ago. Then too there was one side with an exterminist position and so any acknowledgment of nuance or disagreement among gay people was seen as ceding ground to the idea of our own extinction.
So hyper reacting becomes a defense mechanism. And like most defense defense mechanisms, mal adaptive in the long run.
Plus twitter is just not a good place to understand anything
Gender Dysphoria seems like a word cis people made up to describe clinical trans experience, to me. As a definition... It isn't a very good definition in its medical application. It is possible for a person to desire transition having never had significant duress to do so.
Gender Dysphoria is born from the relationship of Trans People existing in a restrictive society. It's feels like the equivalent of SLS (Shit Life Syndrome), but specific to trans people. For those with triggers related to gender dysphoria, cPTSD could be expanded.
"gPTSD?" maybe. gSLS herpaps? SLS-GD? I mean... outside of PTSD, it is likely a lot of trans folks don't retain gender dysphoria after transition. Or have so little of it that they don't need treatment (subclinical). By definition, Gender Dysphoria is not supposed to be a mental illness...
However, that isn't the reality of how it is treated, specifically by the medical community...
The idea that Gender Dysphoria is the right criteria needed for someone to access HRT... Is kinda asinine, in my opinion. Certainly, there are reasons to need medical screening for prescriptions. But as a tool, it is primarily used to gatekeep which is quite shite all around.
Pathologizing medical language is itself based around exclusion (AKA the Insurance doesn't want to pay for it, so you have to force them). Under Neoliberal Capitalism, our language for our experiences codified by the language of law and liability, rather than genuine necessity.
Gender Dysphoria is a diagnosis created by pervasive class struggle, misogyny and transphobia, not by innate dysfunction.
not everyones gender dysphoria comes from how they are socially perceived tho. my chest dysphoria was 100% physical and no matter how much people mightve accepted my gender, i still wanted to die because of it. i still dont even pass and i don't bother telling people my pronouns but ill infinitely happier because my chest is gone and it has nothing to do with how i was treated
Abigail sucks in so many ways, Natalie was the original and Abigail just stole her style.
*yawn*
When something tips in to the realm of disorder is when your ability to function is impaired.
If your dysphoria is so bad that you are struggling to function then you have a disorder. Everyone experiences dysphoria now and then but not to the degree that they are impaired.
If you are using a social service to transition and you don’t have a disorder but want to transition then you are limiting the resources available to people who desperately need it.
You can always seek care privately which I had to do because the waiting list span in to years and I traveled across the country to see a private doctor.
Over a decade on I can now function, I invested in to a career, have a house and a social circle, things I couldn’t do pre-transition.
And thats the point, I still get a little dysphoric now and then but I am functional.
abigail’s thoughts on gender dysphoria tie in nicely with the themes of her stage play “The Prince”. In that play, a pocket dimension is absorbing people from the real world and forcing them to act out shakespeare plays, believing themselves to be those characters. the three leads are trans women, so you’re watching this play and wondering, is this dimension only holding trans women captive? are the other shakespeare characters uninvolved? but you keep watching and you find out, no, all of the actors are real people who’ve been forced into these roles. in other words, the same forces that suppress the authentic lives of trans women also suppress the authentic selves of everyone
13:19 Person somehow someway manages to point out the difference between Abigail Thorn's actual position versus strawman but then ends up strawmanning Abigail anyway. Wow
I think what's missed in this is literally just the difference between "having gender dysphoria" and the feelings that qualify that diagnosis, I don't know how that managed to catch people. Honestly making access to care easier and less stigmatized will help more people be able to transition, shouldn't that be what we all want?
I'm not trans, I'm a cis woman who follows both Abigail and Nathalie. I like watching these sorts of videos because, as an LGBT person myself, I really want to learn about other people's experiences and empathize better. However, please don't call PCOS a "slight hormone imbalance" and "cis women feeling sad about growing a mustache" because it's much more than that, and that really rubbed me the wrong way. As a disabled person who unfortunately suffers from quite a few chronic illnesses, I can guarantee you PCOS hasn't "given me a mustache" yet, but it certainly has worsened my chronic pain and made my life a living hell.
Of course, there will be some people who are more or less affected, but it is an illness, and it's more than "oh I look a bit manly now" or "oh no I have acne", it is serious and although trans women and trans people in general are probably the collective that is neglected by the public healthcare system the most, and it is incredibly important to highlight these issues, cis women are also not taken very seriously by doctors, especially if they suffer from "invisible" chronic illnesses or "female" related illnesses... so let's not to add to that stigma please.
Those "PCOS, mustache and hormone imbalance" comments were outrageously dismissive and disrespectful. I cannot imagine a section of society *LESS* likely to receive, from trans advocates, a sensitive and empathic understanding and appreciation of women's health issues, than *women!*
This is from a paper I wrote titled, “Understanding the Transgender Mystery”
What is Gender dysphoria? This occurs when a transgender person’s biological body at birth doesn't match their knowledge of who they are. For example, if they are born a biological male but know they are a female this causes gender dysphoria.
What happens is the transgender person’s brain tries to process this in the background but it can't. Much like an endless loop in a computer…it is stuck. A high percentage of their brain is working in the background and they miss a lot of what is going on all around them. They are often not mentally present in relationships.
An example is if they go to a movie, a lot of the movie doesn't register and days later they can't recall much of the movie. This is hard for people who aren't transgender to understand as they don't experience gender dysphoria.
Here is another example that is easy to relate to. Have you ever left on a vacation and suddenly wondered if you closed the garage door? You find out that none of the passengers in your car are sure it was closed either.
This becomes a problem your brain can’t solve! Your mind starts going in an endless loop. You lose a lot of your connection with what is going on around you as your brain is using most of its power trying to solve, again in the background, a problem it can’t. The only answers are to go back home, call a neighbor, check a video camera, etc.
That is what gender dysphoria is like. For example, a transgender woman knows her inner self is female but what she sees when she looks in a mirror, and what other people see when they look at her, is a man. She is a female mind (gender) in a biological male body. Her brain is caught in an endless loop. The only answer is to discover that she is transgender and to relieve her gender dysphoria she will probably need to transition. Being transgender is hard but not as hard as being someone you’re not.
FFS!
And can I just say that having trauma over being dismissed as trans is a funky reason for attacking a trans person for claiming that all trans people are valid?
There is some confusion and conflation of having the right to do something and and getting society to pay for it. You should be able to do whatever you want so long as you pay all the costs associated. If you want society to pay for something, then there has to be a societal need/benefit. If gender dysphoria isn't a medical diagnosis/problem, fine, what does the health care system need to do? Unless you have a medical "problem," why should the medical system pay to fix a problem that doesn't exist? Hormones and surgery are necessary if we are trying to fix a medical problem. Is it a medical problem or just something you want to do?
I think this is a deeply inhumane approach to wellness, but sure, if trans people can't get treatment because we just want it, then the NHS should also refuse to cover viagra and finasteride and any other non-medically-necessary gender-related care that cis people get routinely
Also, as a ND person who can't really properly separate my gender and my neurodivergence (and no, I didn't wait for medical approval of that one either), I can't help but wonder how much of gender dysphoria is innate and how much of it is a byproduct of the society we live in.
There are definitely things that would be a significant struggle for me no matter how accepting and accommodating society were (time agnosia being the first thing that comes to mind) and obviously the same is true for many (most?) trans people, but in both cases a HUGE amount of my distress would be eliminated just by being accepting in a world that has a space made just to fit me instead of expecting me to reshape myself to fit in. Like, I wouldn't care about having breasts at all if I could just walk out and check the mail without a top on - if I lived in a world where I not only wouldn't need to worry about state violence (because I live in one of two states that have fully outlawed the presence of the "female nipple" under anything but full opacity) but I also wouldn't have to worry about community violence or being labeled a predator for literally just existing in ways that others are allowed to exist without question. My top "dysphoria" is very literally entirely socially constructed.
Of course others (cis and trans) would still have varying degrees of distress over not having the body they want, regardless of the level of acceptance, but it's impossible to tease apart how much of it actually falls into that category in our current dystopian state
Great video! Couldn't agree more!
“is it any surprise that a group of people prone to abuse is having a strong reaction to someone saying their gender dysphoria is fake” no, it’s not surprising that a group of traumatized people is having an irrational trauma response. but something being understandable doesn’t make it reasonable, i think that people have a responsibility not to let their knee-jerk reactions to things run away with them.
Honestly, I am of the opinion that if gender dysphoria is a real thing, then cis men are probably the group that suffer it the most. What are incels experiencing if not a form of gender dysphoria; their expectations of their experience of gender is not meeting the reality of their experience and they are in the grips of severe cognitive dissonance as a result. I suspect most people experience some form of gender dysphoria at some point in their lives, particularly in their teens, because gender as currently constructed is a panopticon we are all stuck inside.
Luxander, I wish I could meet you in person. I feel like we have very similar worldviews. I'm a transmasc ancom parent who homeschools their kids :)
Are you on the discord? Because Lux has a discord (Hi I'm Max I'm one of the mods) and it's always open so please come in and say hello! discord.gg/kDahtN6h
It isn't about how trans people are feeling, but rather how the term was created as a way to define our feelings in order to diagnose and bill for us not being cisgender.
The thing that some people aren't getting is that the diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria itself is medical gatekeeping. Saying that you must be diagnosed with Gender Dysphoria in order to transition is invalidating to trans people who don't experience body based dysphoria or social dysphoria who do want to transition. The fact that We want to transition is enough. The Gender Dysphoria diagnosis itself is the problem. The feelings of dysphoria are valid but it shouldn't be a necessity to transition.
I'll go one more on this. No one should even have to identify as trans, or another gender, just to be able to express themselves in society in the way that best fits them.
Wow. I am deeply depressed by this chat. Despite the constant "think about this" they absolutely refused to.
I'm so tired of this community. I'm so, so tired of everyone in the community attacking each other. This is absurd.
I think it's good to have spirited disagreements, and I'm still cool with the folks who were disagreeing in chat. I think part of the problem was the perception that the clip we showed was a direct response to the twitter outrage, in which case it would've felt pretty dismissive, so we were having both the discussion of whether Abigail is right on the issue alongside a discussion of whether she was harming the community by being flippant about having hurt people's feelings (which I don't think should have been a topic of discussion at all, but the thing about misogyny is that you tend to not notice you're doing it)
When I saw Abigail's video, I didn't react to her statement. It's a long video and I don't even remember that she said that. But I see how it perfectly makes sense in the context. And no, gender dysphoria shouldn't be a diagnosis that is necessary for getting trans gender health care. On the other hand, for me, learning the term gender dysphoria and what it means was a relief, finally I had a word for real experiences I had, but couldn't describe or understand. To me, gender dysphoria isn't so much a diagnosis, but it's a word that describes the feeling I had for the first time as a twelve year old (as far as I remember), when that stupid girl on the bus to summer camp told me "I can see that you're a girl" and these words hit me like a physical punch in the guts. That feeling, that experience is real, whatever you call it.
The problem is that, colloquially, trans people use the word "dysphoria" to refer not to a clinical diagnosis, but to that set of negative emotions related to discomfort with physical sex and/or social gender presentation. What you call "Dysphoria-associated feelings" *is* what many of us call dysphoria. Erasing the diagnosis and therefore the barriers to transition and medical care? Fine! Great! But in order to let go of the word representing that feeling, we need a replacement, and nowhere in this discourse has one been offered. I feel something that I colloquially call dysphoria, and if I cannot call it dysphoria, I need to be able to call it something else. Erasing the word itself creates this problem, which is what so many people are emotionally lashing back against.
Then people are emotionally lashing back against a point no one was making. Y'all need to get better at listening?
@@LuxanderReal Very specifically, it's not a "point" people are bristling about at all, but an erasure of useful descriptive language. If we as a community disavow dysphoria as a term, I no longer have the language to describe feeling dysphoric about something, which I see as a pretty relevant loss. As soon as we have replacement language to fill that gap, arguments against dysphoria as a diagnosis become disambiguated, meaning it's a clearer banner to rally behind.
Again, if you listen closely, the issue at hand is about retiring the term dysphoria as a DIAGNOSIS not getting rid of the word to describe your feelings.
@@LuxanderReal Hi! I've rewatched your video and realized my frustrations with it were entirely due to feeling infantilized by the implication that not immediately understanding context (a very common predicament for my nd ass) means I'm not allowed an opinion on a topic.
Anyway I got sidetracked and managed to entirely forget you'd addressed the entirety of my concerns in the first half of the video..... Sorry for wasting your time re-arguing it
I ended up losing a friendship because they didn't believe in gender euphoria without dysphoria 💀
so it seems like the feelings of gender dysphoria do exist. I've experienced some myself.
But they shouldn't be used in a clinical setting because you can transition just because it would bring you more joy to transition.
You don't have "gender dysphoria", just means it shouldn't be inextricably linked, especially in the medical sense.
but the depression from ur gender disconnect you had or have are real.
30:44 this is such a good point!
It’s gotta be quite the adjustment. To go from people usually assuming you’re a knowledgeable, competent person & speaking ‘in good faith’; to people assuming that you’re dumb, being unreasonable, & “too aggressive”
I have just stumbled across this video, and I just wanna say that we need MORE of this in the gender conversation and this video does nothing but good. Articulately opening up the conversation and approaching it philosophically without jumping to social conclusions. Reading the comments of this community- it's awesome
I mean, you could say the same thing she is saying about a lot of different medical treatments but thats just how the medical industry works in general. its not an attack on trans people. thats just how medical stuff works. if im in severe pain, i cant just go in and tell the doctors i want pain medication. i have to essentially 'prove' that im in enough pain to neccesitate a certain line of treatment. You could call it gatekeeping... or just medical practitioners doing their jobs which is to actually diagnose an issue before they treat it.
Tho i do think that , if there isnt already, there probably should be a 'wider net' about what they consider to be dysphoria since not all people experience dypshoria in the same way. its not always a huge amount of distress and sometimes just a general misalignment where you arent super distressed but know you would feel BETTER as the opposite sex.. im not sure if that level of understanding is always present. So i do agree THERE, but medical gatekeeping in general is just par for the course with the med. industry in general not a trans thing specifically.
The problem is that cis people have access to the same healthcare trans people are asking for, for the same reasons trans people want it, and are getting access to it with no hassle whatsoever while trans people have to spend years on waiting lists and answer extremely invasive questions about their childhoods and sex lifes in order to access it. This is literally just discrimination and is being actively used to opress and humiliate trans people, it's not actually about making sure people "really need it". This was literally explained in the video.
Contrapoints had turned on everything she believed before passing
Ok, I didn't know Abigail Thorn and the channel she is on. So first, I went and watched that full video in order to be able to watch this one. Watching yours now.
24:57 THIS, this right here is the source of tension, and everything relating to trans medicalism. Gender dysphoria is ESSENTIAL to so many people because they feel it is what legitimizes them being trans. They see it as proof that they arent just "going through a phase" and that it's not just "a trend". Because theyve used it as a shield so much they dont want let go of it, for fear that suddenly those attacks and others might hold some water.
This is ultimately why we need to be very deliberate about what terminology we use and how we articulate ourselves in these topics, because though I understand what's meant, even I had an initial negative reaction, because it was not presented in a way that offered any rebuttals to transphobic claims, and thus was initially perceived as an attack.
I'm also autistic, I do heavily lean towards Anarchism, and I do agree with Abigail, but when she said that in the video, I instantly thought "Oh, crap, she's going to ruffle some feathers". Thing is, most people have self awareness of a slug, unless they were put in a position where they had to consciously reevaluate their whole existence. And even those who had to do some serious introspection more often than not stop at their inner self. With that in mind, Abigail should've known a horde of brainless zombies would come after her, even though she hadn't done anything wrong.
Sometimes a Dx is an important identity for people. We are trained not to unravel that if it's therapeutic for people, maybe that happens later.
this isnt bout the vid just wanted to tell you that ur vid about pansexuals was helpful. ive recently done some exploring of my sexuality (in corn mostly) and discoverd that after being exposed to both genders in that way that i now dont care about the differences. i acknowledge the gender but that doesnt change my attraction towards them its more about them ad your vid was good at explaining that and just made me more sure in this time of confusion. so thank you
The emphasis on gender *euphoria* appeals to me as a trans person, esp an agender trans person for whom the action of transition itself is a hard thing to categorize and pin down for myself. I don't like the idea of my identity being defined by the pain that it brings me. I felt that way when I came out as gay 20 years ago, and I didn't get comfortable defining myself as non-binary or trans until I found things that brought me joy instead of just mental anguish. In an ideal world, my euphoria would remain - or better, turn into The Norm and be unremarkable! - but my negative feelings about my body would not. Discarding any medicalization of transness is the logical conclusion of that, I think.
I really don’t think this is the conversation we necessarily need to be having right now. The distress I experience is why I want to transition medically, I already identify as male without it, and don’t think anyone should have to meet any criteria to identify as the gender they’re most comfortable with and pursue medical transition. I do believe that is the mainstream trans opinion on the matter. Word mincing and redefining criteria during a time where we are being legislated out of our very existence just seems like a distraction from the most pressing issues. That said, Abi should not have been attacked for her opinion. This is an issue with everyone who turned her take into “drama” moreso than her holding an opinion which diverts from the majority.
I think this is an extremely America-centric perspective. In the UK, the medical gatekeeping *is* the primary function of their oppression, they don't have a bunch of laws being passed, and yet lots of trans people are still suffering and dying. Just a different source for the same agony, and this matters for an *entire* country of people's medical access
That’s fair enough. I have noticed the UK is more insidious about how they deny people their identities, but I didn’t let that information fully inform my comment. That said, I think my take was America centric because I’ve seen so many people whom I know to be Americans participating in this dogpile rather than focusing on things that are important right now in their own country.
While I think what we call "gender dysphoria" absolutely exists, what's unclear is what gender dysphoria might look and feel like in a much more tolerant, relaxed, open society, and I hope we can all live to see that evolution.
I think Zena and Poppy had the most persuasive and informed critique of Abigail's hot take that made me refine my own stance a bit, and I recommend people at least give it a listen.
But, hoo, boy, while I fully understand *why* people reacted as they did, it's wild that some people reacted so angrily and violently to Abigail trying to make a case for, essentially, tearing down the fences that prevent people from just doing whatever they want with their bodies and selves, to the point where they were willing to just deny/revoke her whole identity and status as a trans woman.
We're so sensitive to people invalidating our experience and our pain in order to insult, dehumanize, or oppress us that we can't even pick up on somebody trying to employ a rhetorical sleight-of-hand (whether deftly or ineptly, depending on your perspective) to honestly try to *empower* and *liberate* us!
I think Zena and Poppy presenting their view as going after the "idiotic" take from Philosophy Tube was a contribution to the angry and violent backlash against Abigail, and frankly their framing is a complete turn-off from me bothering to listen to their perspective. I didn't title my video with attacks and insults, and I'm not going to seek the perspective of people who ridicule my honest ideas like that. Does not set the stage for constructive dialogue.
@@LuxanderReal , I definitely would've been more delicate in my critique, personally, and I wish they had been, too--but, it makes perfect sense for people to get angry or frustrated when they see others misusing or abusing terminology or concepts from their field and/or failing to appreciate nuanced concepts or processes that their field emphasizes or depends on. They were also correct that in our current sociopolitical environment, completely de-medicalizing gender dysphoria could very well mean that a lot of people just wouldn't be able to access hormones or surgery anymore.
Mainly, I think they've flagged the important question of how healthcare providers best fit into the equation and how they can still do their due diligence without serving as a pointless or counterproductive roadblock.
IMHO, we need to figure out some sort of structure or plan for protecting and supporting healthcare providers who are willing to take a good-faith risk in supporting their clients' personal autonomy. If we want less extraneous gatekeeping, we need to make it safe for providers to engage in less extraneous gatekeeping without undue or excessive fear of being slapped for that.
Actually cis women do need to go through psych evaluation if they wish procedures to be paid by health insurances if they want to "enhance" their gender..normally it's just considered "vanity"...
About Abby: i think in that stream she could have established the category error description a bit more!
In the video herself she explains it more..(and mentions that debunking disphoria would be worthy of a doctorate, so it can be a complex idea)
While I consider myself a trans ally, the trans community has been ridiculously frustrating recently. Everyone is so on edge (understandably) and reactionary that they're hurting their own movement. They (the ones misinterpreting what Abigale said) are like the spastic kid that is perpetually in a meltdown state where all understanding and reason go out the window and are unable to form coherent sentences which leads people to treat them like a child having a meltdown and not take them seriously. I've been saying for a couple years that general reading comprehension and literacy has decreased and its genuinely concerning.
I'm honestly scared for the trans community. Me, being a straight white male, does not mean I'm inherently a bad person with bad takes or that I'm incapable of empathy. I shouldn't be told to "just go ahead and make a why I left the left video you bigot" and then be dogpiled by the very people I'm trying to defend and bring reason and understanding to. It feels like if anyone has a take that expands upon "Trans people good", then you're automatically a threat. It seriously makes me not want to continue spending literal hours, sometimes on a single message, everyday trying to perfectly word things to get through to them. But I will continue fighting for their rights that they're unknowingly destroying because its the morally correct thing to not want bad things to happen to anyone.
I hate the fact that gender dysphoria is used as a litmus test for if someone is "trans enough" and I don't think every trans person who seeks life-saving medical intervention has it or should be diagnosed with it to receive it, but I think to say "it doesn't exist" is short sighted. The medical community shouldn't use it to gate keep, but if the feelings are real then I don't know why the current name we use to describe the reason for those feelings isn't. Is there a better term that we in the community have for it, or what systems would be preferable to put in place instead to assure care for those experiencing those feelings without excluding those who don't or accidentally recommending it to cis people who are experiencing a different trauma?
I similarly was diagnosed with "gender identity disorder" but my therapist wrote down "anxiety" instead so that insurance would cover my appointments, so I get the resentment for having to go through a system set up by cis doctors and insurance companies to access care. However, I wouldn't have known I personally was trans to begin with if I hadn't read the definition of GID and identified so strongly with it, I just thought I was weird prior to reading about it. That was before trans people were as visible in society though, so I'm very open to the idea of restructuring the way we treat transition in general to be more accessible to all trans people.
Weird because Natalie made a video critical of psychiatry a few years back. Sounds like they would agree 100% about this if they were to have a conversation off-twitter.