@@drgeorgek Yeah, I sometimes speed conversations up a bit. It's especially doable with Sam (although it's also great to hear him in his actual speed), but with Ben it's just impossible.
@@synchronium24 Well, I'll say he's almost always quick-witted, and it's not uncommon for his opponent to have trouble following along. But I still think he's wrong on many points.
Defense usually comes down to the flasehood that there was only allowed indentured servitude that people entered into voluntarily... even tho there are verses explicitly against that and directions on how to force forever servants
Exactly! I have been saying that for years, ppl created religions not a god. They needed to make sense of the world and keep humans in check. If you threaten ppl the earth, sky will turn on them if they do wrong against others, damn straight no one is going to commit wrongdoings. Ppl who got struck by lightening, attacked by a animal or any freak accident they told ppl a GOD did this. So of ppl started teaching there children, prophets started popping up and there a religion was born.
Harris hasn’t proved anything unequivocally, ever. He used to be a minor, contrarian voice in society on moral issues. Now, nobody takes this clown seriously
But that was his point. If the creator of the universe knows everything and expected slavery to be a human institution the obvious response is that the creator would’ve also expected abolition, which, as you admit, did come into existence
My mother is a preacher and has read the bible her entire life. In fact, it's pretty much the only book I've seen her read. And when I told her about exodus 21:21, she didn't know about or even believe that it existed.
My parents have been Muslim their entire lives, but never heard of prophet Muhammad's marriage with a 6 year old girl (Aisha). However, my father believes she was married at 9 years old and that child marriage is okay. He also gives sermons sometimes. Ewww.
@@SunWKim I believe Nate’s point is that Christians claim moral authority in the Bible and yet it’s devout followers are not aware of the immoral passages in the that book.
@@BikilaEtana Christians think the whole book is infallible and the word of god until you start pointing out all the slavery, incest, genocide, blood magic, human sacrifice, talking animals etc..
Except for abolition 😂 Ben is proving his point. People were starting to figure out that slavery was immoral in the 19th century despite what the Bible says and it was a fight all over the world.
funny how that "fight all over the world" was exactly where the western influence was, and that slavery still goes on today in south america, africa, russia, china, southeast asia, india, the middle east and Japan as well until the west made them stop in 1945 it's almost like western christian culture is the only one that ever really fought or succeded in ending slavery. abolition is absolutely unique to cultures dominated by western christianity...that fact is hardly contestible. secularism isn't helping..it's quite happy to put children in lithium mines for a new battery or phone
The Bible doesnt endorce slavery at all. The second greatest miracle in the Old Testament was God freeing the Hebrews from slavery in Egypt. The Bible records historical accounts of slavery and other atrocious evils like rape as happening. It doesn't endorse them at all. Is any book that mentions slavery now endorsing it? Such a weak and deceitful argument from Sam In the New Testament, slaves in the roman empire made up 50% of the population. Doctors, lawyers, and business people were slaves. It was indentured servitude. Some where tragically mistreated, most were respected in spciety. Jesus did not support slavery, He wanted people to act in peace and not start a slave rebellion like spartacus. Thing would work out better for enslaved Christians if the Holy Spirit moved and changed things. In Paul's letter to Philemon he talks to a slave master about meeting his runaway slave and states that the slave found Jesus Christ and will return, but not as a slave but as a brother in Christ. Freedom and equality in the Bible is a constant theme. We are all made in the image of God. If you study the abolition of slavery through out history, it has been mostly followers of Jesus Christ. The truth is there, most dont want to see or admit it.
@@apokatastasian2831 Yes but then you wrongly equivocate "Western Christian culture" with "Western culture" that ended slavery. There were some Christian cultures that were morally advanced, many in North America and Europe. But then there was also the entire southern half of Africa that was almost entirely Christian. Many of those countries in Africa did not abolish slavery until the 1900s. So how exactly does your argument work there? Or what about South America, also heavily Christian? Brazil for example only abolished slavery in 1926? I thought all Christian culture was at the forefront of abolishing slavery? Clearly that is just not true, and you are furthremore confusing correlation with causation, so even if these facts did not openly contradict your position your argument is still logically wrong. And secondly, shouldn't the justifications for ending slavery be coming from religion? Why is it that none of the countries that ended slavery mentioned religion when they ended those practices? Why is it instead we find Christianity being referenced as the reason to keep slaves, especially in the American south? Doesn't that confirm even more, the notion that they were Christian had nothing to do with ending slavery? How do you just arbitrarily assume Christianity as the cause? Because of the aforementioned weak correlation that isn't even valid in many other parts of the world? And really you somehow blame secularism for putting children in lithium mines? Secularism is not a religion. It is not a belief system. It simply rejects the existence of God. There are secular humanists who radically oppose child labour just as there are secular dictatorships who enforce it. How on Earth you just assume all secular people are evil or that they collectively "don't do anything" to stop child labour is immoral and nonsensical. Just type it into google if you don't believe me, there are PLENTY of secular humanists who aggressively fight for human rights
@@radscorpion8 lol back to doing homework for you. every abolitionist movement started from christian roots.....FACT...the french and british empires deserve that credit led by christian monarchs, followed by america. the fact that some christian nations were laggards, or the slaveowning elite happenned to be in countries full of christian peasantry....and the 1% of the the slaveowners in america making biblical justifications doesn't negate that. c'mon you're smarter than that clearly. there is every reason to believe without christianity there'd still be slavery today. it persists in south america china india africa the middle east southeast asia russia and japan until the 40's when we made them stop. and yes secularism acts exactly lile a religion. it has tribal belief markers to tell it's adherents apart it has unprovable faith claims it has sacraments clergy and institutions it has it's own version of apocalypse and rapture myths. and supposedly athiest people quite often presume an afterlife, feel connected to their ancestors and say things like "karma" and "the universe gave me" all the time... i think actual athiests are as rare as hen's teeth.
It's usually some variation of " it was the morality of the time because if God didn't allow slavery then he'd lose the religion popularity contest." People will say this with a straight face and think it's an adequate explanation
@@joeb218exactly. God is supposed to have the highest moral ground there is. If he defended something evil just to conform to the state of humankind at that time, then that speaks for itself.
It’s so refreshing to see someone put pseudo-intellectuals like Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson in their place. Their abstract and convoluted arguments immediately get deconstructed the moment Sam opens his mouth, and he does it in the most calm and confident manner imaginable.
You can’t argue with facts. Shapiro points out slavery was later abolished by religious ppl. Sam rebotees by stating abolish was going against the Bible, which is true.
Not really. This was a great conversation and matching of ideas and intellectualism from differing viewpoints. Your comment alone counters what the entire point of this meeting was supposed to be.
Conservatives like Ben are more likeable than Woke people but it still does you no favors to put anybody who is that political on a pedestal. Objective, unbiased Scientists like Sam and Richard Dawkins are the best role models in the world.
Slaves of righteous men weren't treated horribly. They had respect for them, and loved them. It's like the relationship between employers(obviously righteous ones)and employees in today's world. Slaves of Egypt and other places you can't use as reference as they(the people) did not follow Elohim and so many of them let the slaves suffer, starve, overwork, etc
@biancabrummer3075 You are absolutely right, "Slaves of righteous men weren't treated horribly" as an example: Exodus 21:6 "Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever". You say "it's like the relationship between employers and employees in today's world". Then tell your employer to bore your ear through.
@mpaznic "If your brother, a Hebrew man or a Hebrew woman, is sold to you, he shall serve you six years, and in the seventh year you shall let him go free from you. And when you let him go free from you, you shall not let him go empty-handed. You shall furnish him liberally out of your flock, out of your threshing floor, and out of your winepress. As the Lord your God has blessed you, you shall give to him. You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God redeemed you; therefore I command you this today. But if he says to you, ‘I will not go out from you,’ because he loves you and your household, since he is well-off with you, then you shall take an awl, and put it through his ear into the door, and he shall be your slave forever.” (Deut 15:12-17) Please read everything in context. The slaves knew the practice of piercing their ears at that time period, for when they out of free will decide to become servants of their Master for ever. They would not choose to be slaves forever if they were treated badly. Again, like our relationship with God, we chose to be His servants forever and we would proudly where His mark on us to show we belong to a righteous God. They were proud to show the mark of their Master. www.oneforisrael.org/bible-based-teaching-from-israel/why-did-bondslaves-have-their-ear-pierced/ Read this to fully understand the connection to us being bondservants to Jesus, the role of the door, and why the ear, and the blood of the wound made by the piercing. Shalom!
Debt bondage is slavery except for the beatings, the physical chains, and the right to have debts erased through bankruptcy. Other than those things, very similar.
@@Seytom Also, in debt bondage they don't come and take your children away from you to sell them off to some other plantation, nor brand you with a hot iron like cattle or other livestock.
@@farzana6676 what about Prison labor? That's slavery existing in the US. What about prisoners of war? That's also slavery in the US. Again, enough with the hypocrisy. I hate it when non-Muslims preach as if they're holier than though when they are actually morally inferior. Delusional and lack of self awareness.
@@farzana6676 Muslims didn't enslave people because they were black. They had slaves from prisoners of war and there was a systematic way to free them. It wasn't like the kunta kinte movies in Hollywood. This is the problem with Hollywood which created most of the imagery and definition for western people.
Right? I mean like he said, he wouldn’t care even if Hunter Biden had corpses of children in his basement, as long as Trump doesn’t get elected again. A true intellectual 🤣
I always get annoyed when people say that western countries are based on these values. They took the whole book, cut away probably at least 90% of the values in there, then say that our values are based on the values in this book. It's more like this book has been in the way of creating the values we have today.
@@Kanzu999 slavery wasbanned due to Christians studying the bible. Innocent until proven guilty comes from Christianity. Consent comes from the new testament, free speech and thought cones from Jesus saying he won't punish blasphemy, Liberal society was created because Jesus was opposed to church and state merging.
@@nuckygulliver9607 For some reason I can still see your comment when I click my notification, but not when I reload the page, so I'll have to assume that your comment didn't post properly. Anyway, if you hear their conversation, Sam makes the obvious point that there were only Christians around in the west in the past. So ofc it would be Christians doing everything. And ofc it would be Christians arguing against slavery, but they were on the losing side of the theological argument, since slavery is actually endorsed in the Bible. And even *if* what you say is true, you still have to ignore all the horrible parts of the Bible when claiming that our values come from there. Besides, how were say Hindu values worse than Christian values in the past? Clearly you don't need Christianity to get a functioning society, but once it's there, it's difficult to make changes, especially if one is supposed to believe that these changes go against God. Today, we believe in stuff like equality for men and women, being kind to animals and that slavery is not okay. If anything, the Bible has been standing in the way of creating these values.
@@carllucas89 I think it's wrong to say that I "know" what is right and what is wrong, because I'm convinced that all morals (including the ones coming from religions) are subjective in nature. I just have beliefs about what I think is right and wrong. But really, it's not difficult to figure out how to behave well. Even simple rules like acting with the intent of increasing well-being and decreasing suffering will get you far and is not difficult for people to figure out. However, if one believes that they should get their morals from a holy book that was written thousands of years ago, it's easy to find bad morals as well. That's how you get a whole nation to want to kill homosexuals to consider one example. This is why I think there is a great point with the quote that goes something like "Evil people will do evil things, and good people will do good things. But in order to get good people to do evil things, that takes religion." It's not like atheists don't know how to do good. Consider countries like in Scandinavia that consistently rank among the top happiest countries in the world with small crime rates while still being the top atheistic countries in the world. However if you look at the countries in the world with the highest amount of religiosity, the trend seems to go in the other direction. Sure, correlation does not mean causation, but it still should tell us something. Atheists aren't more likely to be immoral than theists.
The Bible never condones slavery. Jesus taught us to do everything as unto Him, that includes slaves serving well. Masters were also instructed to deal kindly with their servants. The Bible also mostly talks about bondservents who bonded themselves willingly, not primarily slaves that were sold by slavetrade.
@@PlayNiceFolks not true. Human had the right to choose to build their home and migrate more freely than now. They go fish or bun their food. So, they loved terry different than now.
Aye. The point being made is if an all loving God with omniscient and omnipotent powers existed, why wouldn't he off the bat been like "slavery is a no no" does that mean that 20th century humans became more moral than God? Or is slavery actually moral and were all immoral for abolishing it?
@@marcusjackman1487 Slavery was the only way that many people would have had any chance at regular meals in the ancient world. The grocery store didn’t exist dude. You couldn’t just go through the drive through Mickey Ds if you only had a couple bucks. Life was exponentially harder then. Judging these cultures by what we have in our modern setting is exceedingly pretentious.
I love how at the very end you hear what I guess is Ben Shapiro pointing out abolishionists, yet he probably has no idea that the politics he fits into today would have more in common with the Confederates than the Lincoln Republicans. Sam in a few words shut down the ludicrous opinion that the Bible is our source of morality.
@@garyhamilton2104 That's a bullshit point. You are god. You see people eating shellfish, and wear mixed fabrics, and for some reason you can't stand that, so you give an explicite command not to eat and not to wear such things. You also see them enslaving each other, which is morally abhorrent, and you go like "Nah they'll figure that one out, who cares about the millions of slaves untill that, i'll just give them guildlines how to buy, own, and beat their slaves" This god is a moral monster, and worth no respect from anyone. Good thing he does not exist or all of us would be screwed.
@@garyhamilton2104 perhaps, but that angle coming from Shapiro is a hollow sentiment. Plus, speculating on the views of a hypothetical creator is a core flaw of political culture that Shapiro follows.
It is not endorsed in the Old Testament it is regulated and it is not the type of slavery that occurred during the transatlantic slave trade. Sam is wrong here unfortunately
@@anglophone412 My point is that the obtuse Left and their "Green Energy" NAZISM means enslavenent not only of people in the Less Developed World, but of all the Developed World as well to Marxist Ideaology that only commits mass murder ala China, USSR, Venezuela et al.
I'm in general agreement with Harris about the Bible, but he's uncharacteristically sloppy with his facts here. Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus tell slaves to serve their masters well, especially Christian masters. Harris is likely thinking of two verses from the epistles of Paul, Ephesians 6:5 and Colossians 3:22, although neither singles out ""Christian masters" for special treatment.
And weren’t those disputed texts anyways? We don’t even know who actually wrote them. But it’s an important misquote that, for me calls into question his critique of the Bible if he’s that sloppy.
I just realized earlier that slavery and Bible goes hand in hand because the relationship of God and us is supposed to be a master and his sevants, which is fundamentally akin to slavery. Then I saw this short. Coincidence? I thinketh not. 🤔
i think you just have a wrong view on what it means to declare God as master or lord. it doesn’t mean “do my bidding mortal” it means that you will, of your own free will try to become more like him and spend more time with him, ultimately allowing him to work in you.
@@matthewbenti3970 I can respect perspective. However, I don't think it matters what I personally think, the Bible clearly and repeatedly states the relationship between God and mortals as such, and I am merely stating the similarity between that and slavery, which also is a concept mentioned clearly and repeatedly.
@@chapter404th That is a good point. However, if you play that game, I can also imagine thousands and thousands of years down the line of human advancement, Bible will be so full of historically accurate but completely obsolete societal and even physical dynamics, that it becomes an extremely complex code. By then, I feel like so many literature/art/music masterpieces will have accumulated that has similar underlying truths that the Bible becomes part of a system/archive. Or do you think it can truly stand test of time, in scales unimaginable to most of us?
For those requiring reference verses: Leviticus 25:44-46New King James Version (NKJV) 44 And as for your male and female slaves whom you may have-from the nations that are around you, from them you may buy male and female slaves. 45 Moreover you may buy the children of the strangers who dwell among you, and their families who are with you, which they beget in your land; and they shall become your property. 46 And you may take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them as a possession; they shall be your permanent slaves. But regarding your brethren, the children of Israel, you shall not rule over one another with rigor. 3. Perversity and human trafficking condoned: "Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse." (1 Peter 2:18) 4. Sex slavery condoned: "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again."Exodus 21: 7-8 Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. Numbers 31:17-18 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. Ephesians 6:5 NLT
Ah the classic knit picking and out of context verses. You would think atheists would find a new way to discredit the Hebrew Bible. But of course not. Beat the same horse to the ground and regurgitate the same abused talking points spewed from one deranged soul to another. I was planning on refuting all these points in an essay by starting off with Leviticus and how the word "slave" isn’t even used in Hebrew but rather "worker"/"servant" is the closest translation and "buying" actually means "hire" in modern context, therefore making total sense (with the rest of the scripture which was conveniently left out) as it talks about hiring foreigners as workers and not fellow Israelites. If you’d have read a little further on from the apparent "condoning of sex slavery" in Exodus 21:7-8, in verse 16 it clearly outlaws slavery by recommending the death penalty for holding slaves. But of course none of this fits your narrative and so having this realization dawn on me, I am not going to waste my time picking apart this pathetic and blasphemous interpretation of the Bible. Moreover, if you’re taking advice on ethics and morals from a person who has no problem with people having corpses of children in their basement, you’re probably far too gone anyways. Maybe grow a brain of your own and think for yourself rather than worshiping someone who has a fancy degree?
@fthv you're funny. So, I suppose the following part of the verse: 6 And you may take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them as a possession; they shall be your permanent slaves. really translates to, "they shall be your PERMANENT WORKERS." I didn't even include Exodus 21:20-21: “If a man BEATS his male or female slave with a club and the slave dies as a result, the owner must be punished. But if the slave recovers within a day or two, then the owner shall not be punished, since the SLAVE IS HIS PROPERTY.” You want the last sentence to say: Since the 'WORKER' IS HIS PROPERTY? Instead of screaming, "out of context" why not acknowledge that you think these verses conflict with your perception of a perfect, benevolent God? The reality just doesn't comport with your perception, so what do you do? Instead of acknowledging reality you start off with a set of desired moral conclusions and then you set out working your way back to find a set of premises that validate your moral conclusions. I'm sorry if you're having difficulty accepting the meaning of words, but I think your anger is misplaced,... you should be angry with the people (or God) who wrote them, not me.
@fthv as for your, "out of context" charge, the short video shows EXACTLY how the theist attempt to wriggle out of unpleasant realities: ruclips.net/video/PK7P7uZFf5o/видео.html
@David Lenett You just had to cut it out of its context son? Here is the whole verse. 5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, 8 because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free. 9 And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.
It's pretty clear the bible talks about indentured servitude and that the slaves were to be treated well. Sam is the one trying to interpret it to satisfy his own views 👀 Exodus 21:16 “Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession".
The Ten Commandments never condemn slavery nor does what you mention condemning or prohibit it. You also are simply ignoring the multitude of verses that condone slavery like Leviticus 25:44-46, Exodus 21:20-21, Numbers 31, Ephesians 6, etc.
@@SupremeSquiggly buying slaves is NOT stealing. People who where sold as slaves is acceptable. Today people sell themselves into slavery on for example an hourly wage to their employer. Slavery was the only way for cities to exist. From herdsmen and Hunter gatherers people needed maidservant and other types of slaves. When YAHWEH approved of slavery it is approval of making cities. We even have the advice of not hiring or taking as slaves of your own family. We know how much trouble hiring family for work can be. So yes chattel slavery is approved but Forced LABOR is NOT condoned!! Do not steal definitely applies to someone's wages so the ten commandments DO apply to slavery!!! Commanded to kill the men, woman and children NOT to take them as slaves!!!
@@endofdaysprophetNope. It’s sad to see you so desperate to justify the Bible condoning slavery you would debase yourself and say slavery is acceptable. To also dishonestly and lazily conflate slavery, owning another human being as property, to working for a wage is absurd. Btw if you’re going to argue that it was ok for the time, in others words, as acting for moral relativism. You should know that’s incompatible with the abrahamic god. The Bible condones owning another human being as property in a multitude of verses and never condemns it.
The problem is where do we get our 21st century morals and ethics from. I think it is historically ignorant to think that good morals just sprung into existence in the last century instead of realizing that it was a gradual evolution over millennia.
literally nobody said that. harris is challenging the claim that the bible is the ultimatum of good in the world and all good values stem from the bible which is the word of the almighty all-good god.
@@carnivorous_vegan When did he say he's only arguing against the point made in the shorts video? He's just making a point any person who listens to Harris will understand the context of, unless you're a bot.
Facts. The major Portuguese merchants responsible for starting the Atlantic slave trade were largely Jewish. The Old Testament/Torah is fine with this.
Slavery is fine if people aren't being mistreated. We are essentially slaves in America until we are 18 and graduate high school. But the way they teach in school tries to keep us in the slave mindset.
That's my understanding of the matter also. If you enjoyed serving your master past the fulfillment of your debt you could continue on in a servant capacity. The outward sign was you had your ears pierced. Debts were paid not defaulted on.
You just proved the very thing Sam Harris just stated. People will try to interpret the Bible in whatever way they deem morally correct to them to fit the current time period. It’s all very convenient. Regardless of the intent of slavery’s depiction in the Bible, it was still very much used as justification for crueler slavery in later times, just as it was and still is for homophobia, misogyny, etc.
@@toohdvaetihom7088 you do realise that jesus wrote nothing right? and you do realise nothing was written about him until ten years after he was dead? and that christianity is based on one bloke having a hallucination he saw a dead bloke he NEVER MET? no one has a clue what jesus said, did or thought.
@@HarryNicNicholaswell, no. The Bible is more than Paul's letters also, bare in mind, Paul met with the apostles (those that traveled with Jesus), and there are many eye witness accounts. The book of Luke was written from interviews Luke had with those who knew Jesus personally, which is why Luke includes details like what Mary (mother of Jesus) was feeling during certain events.
@@HarryNicNicholas "nothing was written about him until ten years after he was dead" Actually it was more like 40 years after his death. seeing how the first NT writings have estimated datings to around 70 AD, IINM.
Which objective standard does Sam Harris use to say what is right or wrong about slavery or the Bible? All he has is his opinion because in an evolutionary world, he believes in, rights and wrongs change daily.
Look through the history books. Look through the literature of any country, at any time. Find me a slave or ex-slave who liked being a slave. Heard of Frederick Douglass? Go and educate yourself.
All people do is read that one part. It continues with don't allow your master to burden you with more than you can handle. In other words, treat them like employees. Not like you own them.
And the Bible derives from the Torah. So these two Jews are playing a game of being controlled opposition/dialectical oppositions. Most slave owners in America weren't European, they were Jewish--around 85%+ of the slave owners.
Jesus said I have come to set the captive free (Luke 4:18) All this western nonentity that doesn't understand basic teachings of any religion but claimed to be intelligentsia.
@@canbest7668 the problem with people like you is ignorance, copy and paste without understanding. What exactly is Jesus fulfilling according to your copy and paste?
@@solidground338 you don’t know? Who’s truly ignorant! If you’re an ridiculous apologist your claims it’s the prophecies. If you’re a realist it’s the laws of Moses. Which one are you?
@@canbest7668 Bible is about a covenant system. What is a covenant? A covenant is an agreement between two or more parties, according to the Bible, God made a covenant with Adam, God made covenant with Noah, God made covenant with Abraham, God made a covenant with children of Israel, God also made a covenant with the whole world through Jesus Christ. Bible is about covenant, the word Testament means Covenant. When the Bible said Jesus didn't abolish the law but he fulfils it, it means Jesus came to put things right, things that was prophesied in the old testament that a messiah will do When He comes. Example, it was prophesied in the Book of isaiah that the messiah will set the captive free, open the eyes of the blind, bring good news to the poor, heal the broken-hearted. More so the messiah will be the ultimate sacrifice, the lamb that be slaughter for the remission of sin, these are the fulfilment the new testament is talking about.
It's appalling that we still need to explain this to so many people. The Bible is nothing more then a collection of ancient literature written by Jews. You could base your moral world view on the Harry Potter books and get a similar result.
give me a break already. you think that without religion, people will simply start being perfectly ratiin human beings and treat eachother with respect and dignity? try justifying your position while in atheist China, the regime puts people in concentration camps, especially ethnic minorities. not all religions at equal and humans have evolved. civilizations either collapse or transform into something good or bad. "good" or "bad" is also subjective for lots of people depending on your background and culture. Dam Harris is an idealist idiot that lives inside a bubble. every single damn sci-fi novel or epic story always has a brim future in which although societies are technically and scientifically advanced, people still suffer from famine, racism, oppression, ethnic cleansing, etc.
You can defend slavery in the Bible because people can offer themselves when they have nothing else to offer. It’s like taking a job unethical or not. And God doesn’t condone a lot of things but usually works with humans in their stuggles with sin. So as an example, yes Jesus or God could say something to the sort of slaves serve your masters well but that doesn’t mean God original plan on intentions for humans is to be slaves, it’s just literally addressing a common scenario that was seen in that time. I don’t know it doesn’t seem that complicated to me.
It’s not that complicated. Most of these people have never cracked a Bible or are too prideful or miseducated to understand it if they did. This thread is a circle jerk of arrogant mouth-breathers who think that being edgy is rebelling against the Bible, when their real problem is the religious Pharisees of our day.
Early Christians had no means of enforcing an abolition on slavery. Slavery was a legally widely accepted practice within both empires (Roman and Parthia) and to violate those laws brought the weight of those institutions down upon those who resisted. Healtht pragmatism was the only sane option.
Slavery back in the day was when someone had an a large amount of debt and if he or she couldn’t pay, they would be a slave for a day or two days or maybe a month just to pay their debt
@@MR-gb5ib What's also demonstrably false is Harris' claim that the Bible "endorses slavery", The Bible regulates slavery as it does divorce, but does not endorse it - They are two different things. He made a logically fallacious leap.
It was called “indenture servitude”. If a person is so poor and no way of paying the money back, they would work as a “slave” to the debtor until the debt was paid. It was a legitimate form of payment at that time
Call it what you want, it was slavery, brutal and god endorsed it. Exodus 21:20 'And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be asurely punished. 21 Notwithstanding, if he acontinue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.' Not to mention god condones rape, if a nation decided to war against Israel, all the men were to be killed and all the women and children were to be considered spoils of war
Sure, for Hebrews. Foreigners didn't have that luxury, they could be owned as property for life, with no condition that they were sold into that position out of volition, or in more accurate terms, chattel slavery.
Sure, for Hebrews (Hebrew males more specifically, females could be sold by their fathers for life). Foreigners didn't have that luxury, they could be owned as property for life, with no condition that they were sold into that position out of volition, or in more accurate terms, chattel slavery. Leviticus 25:39-46 makes this distinction abundantly clear, but lets not let that get in the way of your pretty little narrative 😊
Exodus 21:16 “Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death” It’s funny when people that don’t know the Bible try to talk about it.
Shapiro has what I would call a "powerful engine under the hood". However, he is clearly a slave to bias on MANY topics, and that bias aligns very well with common conservative biases so they listen to him and NEVER hear them.
@@MatthewCleere I definitely think he's more concerned with being seen as right than actually being logical or advancing humanity. Public debate is more stagecraft than just about anything. I'd much rather read long-form answers on policies and see the relevant data than hear thought leaders try to "destroy" each other. It's exhausting and holds us back.
Agreed, it's hard to grasp without a good education. Philosophy and goodwill help us find the right moral path, but the modern Western concept of morality is influenced by the New Testament and Greek philosophy. For instance, the New Testament emphasizes equality, stating that we are all equal in the eyes of God and that the poor can be closer to God than the rich. It's worth noting that British abolitionists were Christians, and John Locke, often regarded as the father of democracy, was also a Christian. Additionally, the New Testament encourages critical thinking by advising us to test everything and retain what is good. Therefore, it's important to use our minds.
the problem religists have though is that if i see someone try to - say- stab someone, i try to stop them, whereas if you believe there is a god, you have to ask "god, did you sanction this" - you have NO IDEA if stabbing someone is good or bad, you need to be told. religists have NO MORALITY AT ALL.
From my understanding, biblical slavery is different from chattel slavery and war usually voluntary. Exodus 21:16 seems to be an explicit prohibition on the kind of slavery we saw in America
Jesus didn't say anything regarding slaves or slavery. The verse Sam Harris quoted was said by St. Paul in the Bible. Before criticizing Jesus atleast be sure what he said.
So U think, your boss can beat you as long as he wants as long as you don't die in a few days? Or maybe he also owns your children and grandchildren which he can sell whenever he wants???? #Exodus 21
Your state of life, whether born a slave or your an indentured servant paying off a debt, or a 21st century worker with a boss, with an authority over you. The Bible doesn't ignore or skirt around human evils, slavery, rape, incest, murder... but if you are found in these situations, these are what have been happening and continue to happen. You are to work hard, whatever your lot in life. Be respectful regardless of how you are treated. Love your enemies and those who persecute you. It never says to serve your Christian masters especially well. Jesus calls people to repent, and turn away from evil. It's wrong to ever say it was indorsed, like it's got God's stamp of approval. It does not
The bible says that the Jews were delivered from Egypt. However, there isn't any evidence that Jews lived in Egypt for 430 years. That's a long time not to have something to show for it.
@@robertbetz8461 better tell those "scholars" for whom the BuyBull is the "unalterable Word of God" that, because they don't seem to have got the memo...
Sure, let’s just ignore the fact that the slaves in the Bible were payed and respected and weren’t actually slaves, but servants If you don’t cherry pick the Bible, it’s different than you might think
If slavery where a paid position doesn’t that simply make them workers or servants? What’s the difference? 🤔 Respected slaves? Did they have like slaver contract they had to sign and honor? 😅
No where in the Bible does it support what you’re saying. It does however very clearly condone slavery, who to own, and the rules to own certain slaves. You should read the verses yourself rather than get a sugar coated and dishonest take from apologists.
@@armorris82 Under The Law of Moses it was illegal to oppress a foreigner living among you or a fellow Israelite. Therefore slavery had to be a consensual arrangement because forcing someone to be your slave is oppression. ✌🏼
You clearly didn’t read the Bible. Go read Genesis where Aberham send this concubine Hagar and his son Ishmael into the woods because Sarah didn’t want her some Issac to split his inheritance.
Ben confidently refers to abolition forgetting that the first religious objectors to slavery in the US were Quakers. Not mainstream Christians. Most Christians in the US weren’t abolitionists and supported the status quo.
The Quakers are Christians....they're a sect of Protestantism. The bulk of the abolitionist movement was run by Christian groups. Not many atheists running around at the time. The overwhelming majority of the hundreds of thousands who died fighting over this were a) White, and b) Christian. It's unheard of for a nation to break into civil war over the enslavement of an out-group. It's never happened. It happened in America, at the time a nearly ubiquitously Christian nation.
@@doubtshadow1 Well yes technically the Quakers were Christians in that they believed in Jesus - but that’s about all they had in common with the mainstream practice of Christianity during that time. They didn’t believe in the church, they didn’t believe in war, they believed in total spiritual equality among the sexes among other revolutionary ideas. Most people in the US called themselves Christians during that time (and now) so obviously most of the people on both sides of the issue were Christians. That’s just logic. But it’s important to remember the abolitionists of the time were considered extremists and outcasts in the mainstream Christian community. It was the southern Christians particularly that derived their white supremacist beliefs directly from the Old Testament. (Some things never change) So it’s really important not to generalize. Not all Christians are the same - not all Christians actually practiced the teachings of Christ.
Please tell me you know that Quakers were Protestant Christians? People cannot be this stupid. *edit* you went back and edited your post to correct your obvious error after I pointed it out and without acknowledgment. This is a great demonstration of the ethics of atheists. Just like Sam Harris, the only ethics are power.
@@wisdomsdoorstep Well I’m not sure if the other folks on this thread are aware of that - but it’s not really relevant. The point remains that during that time mainstream American Christians were overwhelmingly pro slavery.
@@devinneiss4198 This is patently false. The American abolitionist movement and the hundreds of thousands of Union sacrifices and casualties demonstrate that there were millions of abolitionists, many of whom willing to die to blot out slavery in the United States alone. Stop pretending that progressive, atheist propaganda is history. It’s not. And you didn’t even know that Quakers were Christians, demonstrating either a poor or propagandized education.
Slavery in the Bible was not based off race. In the time the Bible was written, slavery was viewed as a way to pay off a debt to another. Once the debt was paid, your servanthood/slavehood was over. One message seen throughout the Bible is that all men are created equal, in the image of God. It’s also important to keep in mind when reading the Bible we need the Bible’s historical context, not our own. If you’ve actually read the Bible and understand those proper contexts, you’ll know Sam’s reasoning is completely false.
It's funny that people can not grasp the concept of how necessary slavery was back then, considering how underdeveloped society was. "Slavery" back then was extremely different from our westernized view of it. It was a way of life, a way to provide for your family and ensure their security as much, if not much more so, as getting a job with a good company today, as well az a result of primitive war, which would hopefully be better than simply annihilating all captives. And endorsed is not AT ALL what slavery is in the Bible. Hearing Sam talk about this stuff makes me think he simply never read the Bible. Which would give me a higher opinion of him than carelessly reading the Bible. It is simply ASSUMED. Because it was simply a way of life back then, what humans did and allowed to be done to survive. Sam sounds very ill-read indeed here.
It can't be only a record of history and a moral teaching full of metaphors at the same time, you have to pick one. Otherwise you are unfortunately cherry picking.
the bible is tripe mate. you do realise that jesus wrote nothing right? and you do realise nothing was written about him until ten years after he was dead? and that christianity is based on one bloke having a hallucination he saw a dead bloke he NEVER MET? no one has a clue what jesus said, did or thought.
there is a lot of wisdom in the bible though. We can all recognize that. Doesn't mean its perfect. It was written by humans who thought they were talking to invisible beings after all.
@@ChillAssTurtle no that’s some of the bs. If you can’t see that there is any wisdom in the Bible at all, obviously there is. You don’t distill thousands of years of human knowledge without coming up with at least SOMETHING of value in there.
@@ChillAssTurtle you don’t think there is anything of value in terms of wisdom of the Bible? Whether that material was copied or altered being passed down. Either way there is some good life lessons in there. It’s like a glass of fine wine filled with flies
@@undergroundsubway7023 they stole do to others as you would have done unto you from confuscious.. thats more or less wise.. they stole it though lol no original new wisdom is in the bible no. Its all grafted on from other people.
Thank goodness we evolved with time and realized that buying and selling human beings was immoral and that we should work together for the greater good of humanity so we could all have a life worth living
Except at no point in the Bible does it say, you shall have slaves. There is no specific endorsement, and it was biblical reasoning that led the English to ban the slave trade and encourage everyone else to do so as well.
Hey friends. The Bible’s endorsement of slavery is a common misunderstanding. In 2023 when we hear the word “slave” we think primarily of the African Slave trade that ran from the 1500’s to the late 1800’s. The Bible, ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE endorses that slavery or the mistreatment of people like this. When the Bible refers to slaves, it’s referring to sort of like a bond servant. In the ancient world, there were no banks and people did not live as independently as we do now. The marketplace was limited. Entrepreneurship wasn’t like it is today. There were no companies to go work for. Instead of getting a job, you’d become a sort of bond servant for a wealthy family. Back then, a wealthy family wouldn’t go see a doctor, they would employ one. They’d have their own doctor that just worked for them. That doctor would be referred to as a “slave.” Basically, a servant of a wealthy family. Same with farmers, chefs, butchers, servants, etc. Wealthy folks just employed these people as bond servants. This was acceptable in this culture. Instead of receiving a check every week from a company like we do now, a person would receive room and board and then a severance package if you will, when their time was up. After a period of time a bond servant was released from their duties and given something for their time. Usually riches like livestock and maybe land. Kind of like military service. Our service people have limited freedom because they have to report to the government but after a period of time they are released from their responsibilities. This sort of bond service is what the Bible is referring to when it references slaves. In Ephesians where the Bible says for slaves to be obedient to your masters, it’s basically telling people to be a good employee. Honor your employer and don’t steal from them or shame them. Later when the Bible says for masters to not mistreat their slaves, it’s basically saying , “be good to your employees.” However, the Bible has been cited as an authority for evil people to commit atrocities for centuries…. Millennia actually. The Bible even says that people will do this. Another confusion is Biblical translation. Some folks believe the Bible to be full of fallacies because of how many times it has been translated. This isn’t true. The Bible is translated simply so people can understand it in their own language. As our language changes with each generation, we have a need to update this ancient language to modern speech. Jesus spoke the language of the people of his day. The goal of modern Biblical translations is to speak to people in their own language. With that being said, if you go check a modern translation of the Bible like The Message or the NKJV, you’ll see that the word slave is often swapped out for servant. Because the Bible does not endorse what we, today refer to as slavery. However, evil people who benefited from the African Slave Trade would often times point to the Bible as their way of reckoning with their own conscience or to make others go along with them. To keep society in line with them. The Bible was was also used as an authority during the Spanish inquisition…. Evil people will always twist God’s word for their gain. That’s what Satan did in the very beginning and that’s what he’s still doing now. But the truth is that the Bible is good. God is good. God loves you.
You have to read the Bible in context. It’s not a rewriting of history, it’s reading history without looking through our modern day lenses. In the Bible, slavery was used as a means of avoiding homelessness and ruin, someone would agree to slavery because of their poor circumstances or life choices and the agreement was never a life sentence. Slavery was used as a temporary solution to a problem. If anyone is rewriting history it’s this man.
@HarryNicholas For you that may be a true THOUGHT but for me your statement sounds as reasonable as the tooth fairy. So you alone can prove God has done nothing and I'm suppose to take your words and run with it? Your making a false claim and stating it as facts. Evil you say? If there is no God how can there be evil? If there's Evil there's Good and how do we objectively differentiate the two as faliable human beings?
@philcoombes2538 mm Christians were the ones who abolished slavery. And your looking at slavery with modern eyes. It was a form to pay off debts. ALSO in the New Testament Jesus made the first claim WE are ALL equal. Everyone. God Bless
Ben’s retort is predictable, “except for the abolitionists”…… uh yea dude, particularly driven by an early form of humanism in direct reaction to religious persecution, religion was created to treat curiosity, boredom and depression at a time when goats where slaughtered for favorable weather😂
Was Sam 'forced to ignore' exodus 21:16, 'So you must purge yourself of evil amoung you. And he that steals a man and sells him, or he be found in hand, he shall shall surely be put to death. So you see, there IS a place in the Bible where you can get a compelling case against slavery
Slavery was an economic necessity in ancient times, but not vital today. Bible had guidelines for slaves back then. For example, no forced enslavement. Bible also has guidelines for our economy today. We say the undocumented workers do the job that nobody wants to do for underpaid wage. James 5:5 said those who work the field for low wage cries out while we live luxurious lives. We fatten our hearts for day of slaughter. God is not mocked, we all have sinned. Judge not that you be not judged as with the same measure you judge, it will be applied to you.
![Eminem - Temporary (feat. Skylar Grey) [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZaK9Wi5ho0o/mqdefault.jpg)
Ben's voice could not possibly sound more annoying when compared to Sam's
Totally. He’s so annoying.. all that drivel without taking a breath
Haha lol… yes
@@drgeorgek Yeah, I sometimes speed conversations up a bit. It's especially doable with Sam (although it's also great to hear him in his actual speed), but with Ben it's just impossible.
Ben sounds like a cartoon character.
You're all ghey
Oh come on, I wanted to hear Shapiro’s defense of slavery.
If you watch the whole conversation, Ben is for once not able to produce any comebacks at all. He was in over his head.
@@Kanzu999 "for once"
That's awfully generous to Ben.
@@synchronium24 Well, I'll say he's almost always quick-witted, and it's not uncommon for his opponent to have trouble following along. But I still think he's wrong on many points.
Defense usually comes down to the flasehood that there was only allowed indentured servitude that people entered into voluntarily... even tho there are verses explicitly against that and directions on how to force forever servants
@@Kanzu999 he's not quick witted, unless we're counting thinking of really dumb lies on the fly under "wit".
Conservatives: “The Bible inspired our Western values.”
Reality: Western values inspire our current interpretation of the Bible. 😂
I interpreted the Bible the same as the Fathers did. So I guess we live in different realities then.
beautiful
Very much so
thanks, this is reality, and it's really weird most don't want to see it, or act as they don't know it. More should see this
The Christian’s killed peaceful spiritual Indians lol 😂
I've never heard Ben Shapiro so quiet for so long.
Haha
He's polite.
Oh, the gish galloping is coming, don't worry
@@peterflood8999hahahahaha good one
This just proves unequivocally that humans created religion. It always matches their current worldview.
Exactly! I have been saying that for years, ppl created religions not a god. They needed to make sense of the world and keep humans in check. If you threaten ppl the earth, sky will turn on them if they do wrong against others, damn straight no one is going to commit wrongdoings. Ppl who got struck by lightening, attacked by a animal or any freak accident they told ppl a GOD did this. So of ppl started teaching there children, prophets started popping up and there a religion was born.
Harris hasn’t proved anything unequivocally, ever. He used to be a minor, contrarian voice in society on moral issues. Now, nobody takes this clown seriously
Lol this doesn’t prove anything. He literally says “in my view”
Religion was created to control human behavior. Nothing more.
Religion was created to control human behavior and set up “norms”
Ben’s “Facts don’t care about your feelings” have exodus the moment he is challenged on a topic of religion
I love Ben's, "...well except for abolition..."
Abolition occurred AFTER the US was founded in spite of the Bible rather than on it.
But that was his point. If the creator of the universe knows everything and expected slavery to be a human institution the obvious response is that the creator would’ve also expected abolition, which, as you admit, did come into existence
@@ImStuckInStockton an all loving creator would have never allowed it in the first place.
@@Im_that_guy_man bro his brain is moosh.. can't save everyone from such mind forged manacles
@@ImStuckInStockton If the creator of the universe knew slavery would exist, then it is part of his design.
@@Im_that_guy_man Im not defending Bens point just clarifying since the top comment on this clip misrepresents what Ben said
My mother is a preacher and has read the bible her entire life. In fact, it's pretty much the only book I've seen her read. And when I told her about exodus 21:21, she didn't know about or even believe that it existed.
My parents have been Muslim their entire lives, but never heard of prophet Muhammad's marriage with a 6 year old girl (Aisha). However, my father believes she was married at 9 years old and that child marriage is okay. He also gives sermons sometimes. Ewww.
Slavery existed during the time of Moses. Slavery existed up to the 18th century in the USA. Not sure what your point is.
@@SunWKim I believe Nate’s point is that Christians claim moral authority in the Bible and yet it’s devout followers are not aware of the immoral passages in the that book.
That doesn’t make the Bible a fictional book. You saw exodus 21:21 and here to judge the whole book?
@@BikilaEtana Christians think the whole book is infallible and the word of god until you start pointing out all the slavery, incest, genocide, blood magic, human sacrifice, talking animals etc..
Except for abolition 😂 Ben is proving his point. People were starting to figure out that slavery was immoral in the 19th century despite what the Bible says and it was a fight all over the world.
funny how that "fight all over the world" was exactly where the western influence was, and that slavery still goes on today in south america, africa, russia, china, southeast asia, india, the middle east and Japan as well until the west made them stop in 1945
it's almost like western christian culture is the only one that ever really fought or succeded in ending slavery.
abolition is absolutely unique to cultures dominated by western christianity...that fact is hardly contestible.
secularism isn't helping..it's quite happy to put children in lithium mines for a new battery or phone
The Bible doesnt endorce slavery at all. The second greatest miracle in the Old Testament was God freeing the Hebrews from slavery in Egypt. The Bible records historical accounts of slavery and other atrocious evils like rape as happening. It doesn't endorse them at all. Is any book that mentions slavery now endorsing it? Such a weak and deceitful argument from Sam
In the New Testament, slaves in the roman empire made up 50% of the population. Doctors, lawyers, and business people were slaves. It was indentured servitude. Some where tragically mistreated, most were respected in spciety. Jesus did not support slavery, He wanted people to act in peace and not start a slave rebellion like spartacus. Thing would work out better for enslaved Christians if the Holy Spirit moved and changed things. In Paul's letter to Philemon he talks to a slave master about meeting his runaway slave and states that the slave found Jesus Christ and will return, but not as a slave but as a brother in Christ. Freedom and equality in the Bible is a constant theme. We are all made in the image of God. If you study the abolition of slavery through out history, it has been mostly followers of Jesus Christ. The truth is there, most dont want to see or admit it.
@@apokatastasian2831yea im sure its only atheists who buy new phones and ignore how the materials are mined...
Is that you Ben?
@@apokatastasian2831 Yes but then you wrongly equivocate "Western Christian culture" with "Western culture" that ended slavery. There were some Christian cultures that were morally advanced, many in North America and Europe. But then there was also the entire southern half of Africa that was almost entirely Christian. Many of those countries in Africa did not abolish slavery until the 1900s. So how exactly does your argument work there? Or what about South America, also heavily Christian? Brazil for example only abolished slavery in 1926? I thought all Christian culture was at the forefront of abolishing slavery? Clearly that is just not true, and you are furthremore confusing correlation with causation, so even if these facts did not openly contradict your position your argument is still logically wrong.
And secondly, shouldn't the justifications for ending slavery be coming from religion? Why is it that none of the countries that ended slavery mentioned religion when they ended those practices? Why is it instead we find Christianity being referenced as the reason to keep slaves, especially in the American south? Doesn't that confirm even more, the notion that they were Christian had nothing to do with ending slavery? How do you just arbitrarily assume Christianity as the cause? Because of the aforementioned weak correlation that isn't even valid in many other parts of the world?
And really you somehow blame secularism for putting children in lithium mines? Secularism is not a religion. It is not a belief system. It simply rejects the existence of God. There are secular humanists who radically oppose child labour just as there are secular dictatorships who enforce it. How on Earth you just assume all secular people are evil or that they collectively "don't do anything" to stop child labour is immoral and nonsensical. Just type it into google if you don't believe me, there are PLENTY of secular humanists who aggressively fight for human rights
@@radscorpion8 lol back to doing homework for you. every abolitionist movement started from christian roots.....FACT...the french and british empires deserve that credit led by christian monarchs, followed by america.
the fact that some christian nations were laggards, or the slaveowning elite happenned to be in countries full of christian peasantry....and the 1% of the the slaveowners in america making biblical justifications doesn't negate that.
c'mon you're smarter than that clearly. there is every reason to believe without christianity there'd still be slavery today.
it persists in
south america
china
india
africa
the middle east
southeast asia
russia
and japan until the 40's when we made them stop.
and yes secularism acts exactly lile a religion.
it has tribal belief markers to tell it's adherents apart
it has unprovable faith claims
it has sacraments
clergy and institutions
it has it's own version of apocalypse and rapture myths. and supposedly athiest people quite often presume an afterlife, feel connected to their ancestors and say things like "karma" and "the universe gave me" all the time...
i think actual athiests are as rare as hen's teeth.
aggressive interpretation is true and should be a more popular phrase with regards to all Christian and Muslim people
It's usually some variation of " it was the morality of the time because if God didn't allow slavery then he'd lose the religion popularity contest." People will say this with a straight face and think it's an adequate explanation
@@joeb218 that's pure bullshit lmao. but you're right they'd go any length to believe their delusions
Yall really want to gamble on if he'll is real or not? Aiit goodluck
@@joeb218exactly. God is supposed to have the highest moral ground there is. If he defended something evil just to conform to the state of humankind at that time, then that speaks for itself.
@@jermaineshaka-momoh5535he's obviously not
It’s so refreshing to see someone put pseudo-intellectuals like Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson in their place. Their abstract and convoluted arguments immediately get deconstructed the moment Sam opens his mouth, and he does it in the most calm and confident manner imaginable.
You're a pseudo intellectual :'(
off all things to spout, calling Jordan Peterson a pseudo intellectual is the peak of dumb things to spout.
Shapiro got spanked so god damn hard in that interview
Shapiro wishes he was lol 😂
@@adrianazollo2688 wtf😂😂😂😂
@game nat where?
@game nat What is the punishment of slavery
@@thoughtvibesz shapiro is an idiot. talking fast might fool religists but it doesn't fool people who can listen.
Sam Harris is one of the best minds of our time.
And Ben shapiro's is one of the smoothest
@@Skepticfornow XD very very smooth.. now hes defending kanyes anti semitism
@@Skepticfornow, compressed word-salad is not smooth talking.
Do not forget your capitalization and period please.
Ironically you’ve missed the joke. He has a “smooth” brain… geddit?
@@naiyang888 he was saying that Ben's mind/brain is smooth. He's saying he's stupid.
Sam=soothing Ben=disturbing
Ben is one of the least self aware humans people who always criticize others are not self aware
Ben the type who always points outward at everyone else’s faults but never looks at oneself lol
You can’t argue with facts. Shapiro points out slavery was later abolished by religious ppl. Sam rebotees by stating abolish was going against the Bible, which is true.
Umm these arnt facts tho the Bible speaks against non servitude slavery for example
Exodus 21:16
And its several more passages like this
"Anyone who steals a man or sells him shall be put to death" seems like a pretty explicitly condemnation of slavery lol
@@Odxowave the bible is definitely not consistent on slavery that's for sure.
Shapiro matched against Sam, is like playing single player games all your life and suddenly entering a MMO shooter with top ranked players.
Not really. This was a great conversation and matching of ideas and intellectualism from differing viewpoints. Your comment alone counters what the entire point of this meeting was supposed to be.
@@ce6654 yeah no.
@@pleothid yeah, no yourself.
@@ce6654 yeah, still no.
@@pleothid you have nothing to say apart from,which renders your statement invalid. Thanks for playing.
Conservatives like Ben are more likeable than Woke people but it still does you no favors to put anybody who is that political on a pedestal. Objective, unbiased Scientists like Sam and Richard Dawkins are the best role models in the world.
what does woke mean?
@@jonn9953 past tense of awake.
unbiased? funny
Slaves of righteous men weren't treated horribly. They had respect for them, and loved them. It's like the relationship between employers(obviously righteous ones)and employees in today's world. Slaves of Egypt and other places you can't use as reference as they(the people) did not follow Elohim and so many of them let the slaves suffer, starve, overwork, etc
The gold medal for mental gymnastics goes to you.
Another trained 🐒
@biancabrummer3075
You are absolutely right, "Slaves of righteous men weren't treated horribly"
as an example:
Exodus 21:6
"Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever".
You say "it's like the relationship between employers and employees in today's world".
Then tell your employer to bore your ear through.
@mpaznic "If your brother, a Hebrew man or a Hebrew woman, is sold to you, he shall serve you six years, and in the seventh year you shall let him go free from you. And when you let him go free from you, you shall not let him go empty-handed. You shall furnish him liberally out of your flock, out of your threshing floor, and out of your winepress. As the Lord your God has blessed you, you shall give to him. You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God redeemed you; therefore I command you this today. But if he says to you, ‘I will not go out from you,’ because he loves you and your household, since he is well-off with you, then you shall take an awl, and put it through his ear into the door, and he shall be your slave forever.” (Deut 15:12-17)
Please read everything in context. The slaves knew the practice of piercing their ears at that time period, for when they out of free will decide to become servants of their Master for ever. They would not choose to be slaves forever if they were treated badly. Again, like our relationship with God, we chose to be His servants forever and we would proudly where His mark on us to show we belong to a righteous God.
They were proud to show the mark of their Master.
www.oneforisrael.org/bible-based-teaching-from-israel/why-did-bondslaves-have-their-ear-pierced/
Read this to fully understand the connection to us being bondservants to Jesus, the role of the door, and why the ear, and the blood of the wound made by the piercing.
Shalom!
Stop making up bs, what plantation in the south was slaves treated well? White people wil say any damn thing
@@mpaznic "anyone who steals a man or sells him shall be put to death"
Is this not a clear condemnation of slavery?
Debt bondage is slavery so don't be a hypocrite and pretend we abolished slavery in the 21st century. Slavery is alive and well.
Debt bondage is slavery except for the beatings, the physical chains, and the right to have debts erased through bankruptcy. Other than those things, very similar.
@@Seytom Also, in debt bondage they don't come and take your children away from you to sell them off to some other plantation, nor brand you with a hot iron like cattle or other livestock.
Debt bondage is a position you put yourself into. Slavery was not really a choice offered to slaves. Islam has the same problem. 😂
@@farzana6676 what about Prison labor? That's slavery existing in the US.
What about prisoners of war? That's also slavery in the US.
Again, enough with the hypocrisy. I hate it when non-Muslims preach as if they're holier than though when they are actually morally inferior.
Delusional and lack of self awareness.
@@farzana6676 Muslims didn't enslave people because they were black. They had slaves from prisoners of war and there was a systematic way to free them.
It wasn't like the kunta kinte movies in Hollywood. This is the problem with Hollywood which created most of the imagery and definition for western people.
I am so glad we have Sam Harris in this world
Right? I mean like he said, he wouldn’t care even if Hunter Biden had corpses of children in his basement, as long as Trump doesn’t get elected again. A true intellectual 🤣
He’s a freak
Common sense and logic lol
Why,
He's strawmaning most of the time or making shitty arguments
"You're taking it out of context!" 🥴
Heard Ben's voice when I was not expecting it and was immediately relieved to not have to hear it👌
But muh Judeo-Christian values!
I always get annoyed when people say that western countries are based on these values. They took the whole book, cut away probably at least 90% of the values in there, then say that our values are based on the values in this book.
It's more like this book has been in the way of creating the values we have today.
@@Kanzu999 slavery wasbanned due to Christians studying the bible. Innocent until proven guilty comes from Christianity. Consent comes from the new testament, free speech and thought cones from Jesus saying he won't punish blasphemy, Liberal society was created because Jesus was opposed to church and state merging.
@@nuckygulliver9607 For some reason I can still see your comment when I click my notification, but not when I reload the page, so I'll have to assume that your comment didn't post properly.
Anyway, if you hear their conversation, Sam makes the obvious point that there were only Christians around in the west in the past. So ofc it would be Christians doing everything. And ofc it would be Christians arguing against slavery, but they were on the losing side of the theological argument, since slavery is actually endorsed in the Bible.
And even *if* what you say is true, you still have to ignore all the horrible parts of the Bible when claiming that our values come from there. Besides, how were say Hindu values worse than Christian values in the past? Clearly you don't need Christianity to get a functioning society, but once it's there, it's difficult to make changes, especially if one is supposed to believe that these changes go against God.
Today, we believe in stuff like equality for men and women, being kind to animals and that slavery is not okay. If anything, the Bible has been standing in the way of creating these values.
@Frey Vestergaard as an atheist, how do you know what is right and what is wrong?
@@carllucas89 I think it's wrong to say that I "know" what is right and what is wrong, because I'm convinced that all morals (including the ones coming from religions) are subjective in nature. I just have beliefs about what I think is right and wrong.
But really, it's not difficult to figure out how to behave well. Even simple rules like acting with the intent of increasing well-being and decreasing suffering will get you far and is not difficult for people to figure out. However, if one believes that they should get their morals from a holy book that was written thousands of years ago, it's easy to find bad morals as well. That's how you get a whole nation to want to kill homosexuals to consider one example.
This is why I think there is a great point with the quote that goes something like "Evil people will do evil things, and good people will do good things. But in order to get good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
It's not like atheists don't know how to do good. Consider countries like in Scandinavia that consistently rank among the top happiest countries in the world with small crime rates while still being the top atheistic countries in the world. However if you look at the countries in the world with the highest amount of religiosity, the trend seems to go in the other direction. Sure, correlation does not mean causation, but it still should tell us something. Atheists aren't more likely to be immoral than theists.
The Bible never condones slavery. Jesus taught us to do everything as unto Him, that includes slaves serving well. Masters were also instructed to deal kindly with their servants. The Bible also mostly talks about bondservents who bonded themselves willingly, not primarily slaves that were sold by slavetrade.
What do you call children born into government debt that work all their lives and can’t afford a simple home and good food?
Normal people? How most people live and have lived throughout human history.
Serfs
What children are you talking about?
@@PlayNiceFolks not true. Human had the right to choose to build their home and migrate more freely than now. They go fish or bun their food. So, they loved terry different than now.
Difference is we have billions more people. Would be impossible to do what you described.
Abolishing slavery is a modern concept, basically unheard of before the 1800’s the Bible is much older.
Aye. The point being made is if an all loving God with omniscient and omnipotent powers existed, why wouldn't he off the bat been like "slavery is a no no" does that mean that 20th century humans became more moral than God? Or is slavery actually moral and were all immoral for abolishing it?
@@marcusjackman1487 Slavery was the only way that many people would have had any chance at regular meals in the ancient world. The grocery store didn’t exist dude. You couldn’t just go through the drive through Mickey Ds if you only had a couple bucks. Life was exponentially harder then. Judging these cultures by what we have in our modern setting is exceedingly pretentious.
I love how at the very end you hear what I guess is Ben Shapiro pointing out abolishionists, yet he probably has no idea that the politics he fits into today would have more in common with the Confederates than the Lincoln Republicans. Sam in a few words shut down the ludicrous opinion that the Bible is our source of morality.
You missed his point just like I did at first.
He's saying maybe the creator expected abolition which defeats a tiny part of sam's argument
@@garyhamilton2104 That's a bullshit point. You are god. You see people eating shellfish, and wear mixed fabrics, and for some reason you can't stand that, so you give an explicite command not to eat and not to wear such things. You also see them enslaving each other, which is morally abhorrent, and you go like "Nah they'll figure that one out, who cares about the millions of slaves untill that, i'll just give them guildlines how to buy, own, and beat their slaves" This god is a moral monster, and worth no respect from anyone. Good thing he does not exist or all of us would be screwed.
@@garyhamilton2104 perhaps, but that angle coming from Shapiro is a hollow sentiment. Plus, speculating on the views of a hypothetical creator is a core flaw of political culture that Shapiro follows.
It even true! Lol
@@garyhamilton2104 Ben's creator expected the Holocaust, but it's ok because of the Allies liberating the camps. What a loving God he worships.
It is not endorsed in the Old Testament it is regulated and it is not the type of slavery that occurred during the transatlantic slave trade. Sam is wrong here unfortunately
Slavery still exists all over the globe. Meanwhile most of us (myself included) can’t even be bothered to buy ethically sourced goods.
"ETHICALLY SOURCED GOODS"? Do you mean like the Cobalt for your EV Mercedes battery that gets mined by 5-7 year old African children by hand?
@@whyaskwhybuddry I think you are proving my point.
@@anglophone412 My point is that the obtuse Left and their "Green Energy" NAZISM means enslavenent not only of people in the Less Developed World, but of all the Developed World as well to Marxist Ideaology that only commits mass murder ala China, USSR, Venezuela et al.
bro congratulations on making several delusional comments
@@MorbiusBlueBalls Where are you getting the cobalt for the battery of your EV?
I'm in general agreement with Harris about the Bible, but he's uncharacteristically sloppy with his facts here. Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus tell slaves to serve their masters well, especially Christian masters. Harris is likely thinking of two verses from the epistles of Paul, Ephesians 6:5 and Colossians 3:22, although neither singles out ""Christian masters" for special treatment.
It never stops to amaze me how atheists either misquote or take the scriptures out of context.
@game nat moses never existed, so there is that.
@@coastline6027the gold medal for mental gymnastics goes to coastline6027
And weren’t those disputed texts anyways? We don’t even know who actually wrote them. But it’s an important misquote that, for me calls into question his critique of the Bible if he’s that sloppy.
Exodus 21:20, from 'god' himself, nuff said
I just realized earlier that slavery and Bible goes hand in hand because the relationship of God and us is supposed to be a master and his sevants, which is fundamentally akin to slavery. Then I saw this short. Coincidence? I thinketh not. 🤔
Mind forged manacles are the worst
i think you just have a wrong view on what it means to declare God as master or lord. it doesn’t mean “do my bidding mortal” it means that you will, of your own free will try to become more like him and spend more time with him, ultimately allowing him to work in you.
@@matthewbenti3970 I can respect perspective. However, I don't think it matters what I personally think, the Bible clearly and repeatedly states the relationship between God and mortals as such, and I am merely stating the similarity between that and slavery, which also is a concept mentioned clearly and repeatedly.
@@chu8 I think the question shouldn’t be whether slavery is in the Bible, but whether slavery in the Bible is moral or immoral.
@@chapter404th That is a good point. However, if you play that game, I can also imagine thousands and thousands of years down the line of human advancement, Bible will be so full of historically accurate but completely obsolete societal and even physical dynamics, that it becomes an extremely complex code. By then, I feel like so many literature/art/music masterpieces will have accumulated that has similar underlying truths that the Bible becomes part of a system/archive. Or do you think it can truly stand test of time, in scales unimaginable to most of us?
For those requiring reference verses:
Leviticus 25:44-46New King James Version (NKJV)
44 And as for your male and female slaves whom you may have-from the nations that are around you, from them you may buy male and female slaves. 45 Moreover you may buy the children of the strangers who dwell among you, and their families who are with you, which they beget in your land; and they shall become your property. 46 And you may take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them as a possession; they shall be your permanent slaves. But regarding your brethren, the children of Israel, you shall not rule over one another with rigor.
3. Perversity and human trafficking condoned: "Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse." (1 Peter 2:18)
4. Sex slavery condoned: "When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again."Exodus 21: 7-8
Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. Numbers 31:17-18
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. Ephesians 6:5 NLT
Ah the classic knit picking and out of context verses. You would think atheists would find a new way to discredit the Hebrew Bible. But of course not. Beat the same horse to the ground and regurgitate the same abused talking points spewed from one deranged soul to another.
I was planning on refuting all these points in an essay by starting off with Leviticus and how the word "slave" isn’t even used in Hebrew but rather "worker"/"servant" is the closest translation and "buying" actually means "hire" in modern context, therefore making total sense (with the rest of the scripture which was conveniently left out) as it talks about hiring foreigners as workers and not fellow Israelites. If you’d have read a little further on from the apparent "condoning of sex slavery" in Exodus 21:7-8, in verse 16 it clearly outlaws slavery by recommending the death penalty for holding slaves. But of course none of this fits your narrative and so having this realization dawn on me, I am not going to waste my time picking apart this pathetic and blasphemous interpretation of the Bible.
Moreover, if you’re taking advice on ethics and morals from a person who has no problem with people having corpses of children in their basement, you’re probably far too gone anyways. Maybe grow a brain of your own and think for yourself rather than worshiping someone who has a fancy degree?
@fthv you're funny. So, I suppose the following part of the verse:
6 And you may take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them as a possession; they shall be your permanent slaves.
really translates to, "they shall be your PERMANENT WORKERS."
I didn't even include Exodus 21:20-21:
“If a man BEATS his male or female slave with a club and the slave dies as a result, the owner must be punished. But if the slave recovers within a day or two, then the owner shall not be punished, since the SLAVE IS HIS PROPERTY.”
You want the last sentence to say:
Since the 'WORKER' IS HIS PROPERTY?
Instead of screaming, "out of context" why not acknowledge that you think these verses conflict with your perception of a perfect, benevolent God? The reality just doesn't comport with your perception, so what do you do? Instead of acknowledging reality
you start off with a set of desired moral conclusions and then you set out working your way back to find a set of premises that validate your moral conclusions.
I'm sorry if you're having difficulty accepting the meaning of words, but I think your anger is misplaced,... you should be angry with the people (or God) who wrote them, not me.
@fthv as for your, "out of context" charge, the short video shows EXACTLY how the theist attempt to wriggle out of unpleasant realities:
ruclips.net/video/PK7P7uZFf5o/видео.html
@David Lenett You just had to cut it out of its context son? Here is the whole verse.
5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, 8 because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free.
9 And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.
@David Lenett no matter how much you Satanists try, you will never make Christians turn their back on the greatest book ever written.
He’s actually right on this one. 😊 Thanks Sam for breaking this down.
It's pretty clear the bible talks about indentured servitude and that the slaves were to be treated well. Sam is the one trying to interpret it to satisfy his own views 👀 Exodus 21:16 “Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession".
Harris with the dunk
The fact is the stone tablets Moses brought down from the mountain of GOD say "DO NOT STEAL" this includes wages and free will!!!
The Ten Commandments never condemn slavery nor does what you mention condemning or prohibit it. You also are simply ignoring the multitude of verses that condone slavery like Leviticus 25:44-46, Exodus 21:20-21, Numbers 31, Ephesians 6, etc.
@@SupremeSquiggly buying slaves is NOT stealing. People who where sold as slaves is acceptable. Today people sell themselves into slavery on for example an hourly wage to their employer. Slavery was the only way for cities to exist. From herdsmen and Hunter gatherers people needed maidservant and other types of slaves. When YAHWEH approved of slavery it is approval of making cities. We even have the advice of not hiring or taking as slaves of your own family. We know how much trouble hiring family for work can be. So yes chattel slavery is approved but Forced LABOR is NOT condoned!! Do not steal definitely applies to someone's wages so the ten commandments DO apply to slavery!!! Commanded to kill the men, woman and children NOT to take them as slaves!!!
@@endofdaysprophetNope. It’s sad to see you so desperate to justify the Bible condoning slavery you would debase yourself and say slavery is acceptable. To also dishonestly and lazily conflate slavery, owning another human being as property, to working for a wage is absurd. Btw if you’re going to argue that it was ok for the time, in others words, as acting for moral relativism. You should know that’s incompatible with the abrahamic god. The Bible condones owning another human being as property in a multitude of verses and never condemns it.
Sam you should talk about slavery in present day. Don’t worry about Ben Affleck.
Wage slavery or chattle slavery
Hahahah Ben Affleck wasn't even in the debate, all he could do is yell racist!!!! Mean Gene Okerlund you trolling idiot.
we are all slaves to cash.
The Bible is a product of its time and reflects the morality of the time it was written.
Then no one should follow it anymore
@@astonvilleyes because our morality has worked out so much better.
The problem is where do we get our 21st century morals and ethics from. I think it is historically ignorant to think that good morals just sprung into existence in the last century instead of realizing that it was a gradual evolution over millennia.
literally nobody said that. harris is challenging the claim that the bible is the ultimatum of good in the world and all good values stem from the bible which is the word of the almighty all-good god.
Who said "good morals just sprung into existence in the last century" ?
Congrats. You just argued against a point which was never made
Tell me you know nothing about the enlightenment without telling me you know nothing about the enlightenment
@@carnivorous_vegan When did he say he's only arguing against the point made in the shorts video? He's just making a point any person who listens to Harris will understand the context of, unless you're a bot.
Facts. The major Portuguese merchants responsible for starting the Atlantic slave trade were largely Jewish. The Old Testament/Torah is fine with this.
Slavery is fine if people aren't being mistreated. We are essentially slaves in America until we are 18 and graduate high school. But the way they teach in school tries to keep us in the slave mindset.
A person became a slave because he was indebted to his master. He owed him. Not the understanding we have today about slavery.
That's my understanding of the matter also. If you enjoyed serving your master past the fulfillment of your debt you could continue on in a servant capacity. The outward sign was you had your ears pierced. Debts were paid not defaulted on.
Whatever fits, sigh
You just proved the very thing Sam Harris just stated. People will try to interpret the Bible in whatever way they deem morally correct to them to fit the current time period. It’s all very convenient. Regardless of the intent of slavery’s depiction in the Bible, it was still very much used as justification for crueler slavery in later times, just as it was and still is for homophobia, misogyny, etc.
Marriage is slavery 😂
@@Chocomunchie because of man not God.
do unto others as you wish to be done unto you…
He is quoting Paul...not Jesus
The entire bible is word of God
@@toohdvaetihom7088 He literally says it's a Jesus quote.
@@toohdvaetihom7088 you do realise that jesus wrote nothing right?
and you do realise nothing was written about him until ten years after he was dead?
and that christianity is based on one bloke having a hallucination he saw a dead bloke he NEVER MET?
no one has a clue what jesus said, did or thought.
@@HarryNicNicholaswell, no. The Bible is more than Paul's letters also, bare in mind, Paul met with the apostles (those that traveled with Jesus), and there are many eye witness accounts. The book of Luke was written from interviews Luke had with those who knew Jesus personally, which is why Luke includes details like what Mary (mother of Jesus) was feeling during certain events.
@@HarryNicNicholas "nothing was written about him until ten years after he was dead"
Actually it was more like 40 years after his death. seeing how the first NT writings have estimated datings to around 70 AD, IINM.
I truly love Sam's content. And like every popular atheist he's never read the bible.
You gave nothing, but an unfounded insecure dismissal. You need to do better.
Which objective standard does Sam Harris use to say what is right or wrong about slavery or the Bible? All he has is his opinion because in an evolutionary world, he believes in, rights and wrongs change daily.
Look through the history books. Look through the literature of any country, at any time. Find me a slave or ex-slave who liked being a slave.
Heard of Frederick Douglass? Go and educate yourself.
Slavery.... true Jewish history, and as people of hardcore trade,... they had their hands on slavery,.... but so did lots of people back than...
Sam’s 14 minutes, in warnings against TRUMP from 2016.. has aged like fine cheese 🧀 & wine 🍷 💕 I’ve never loved 🥰 a person more:)
All people do is read that one part. It continues with don't allow your master to burden you with more than you can handle. In other words, treat them like employees. Not like you own them.
Could they quit? Were they free to explore other opportunities? Did they have agency over their own destiny?
It just say to Master don't be too harsh. Masters still can do whatever they want to slaves as Bible pointed out.
A slave telling his master to not give him more than he can handle? Sounds plausible,, not.
And the Bible derives from the Torah. So these two Jews are playing a game of being controlled opposition/dialectical oppositions. Most slave owners in America weren't European, they were Jewish--around 85%+ of the slave owners.
Jesus said I have come to set the captive free (Luke 4:18) All this western nonentity that doesn't understand basic teachings of any religion but claimed to be intelligentsia.
Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.”. Hmmmm....
@@canbest7668 the problem with people like you is ignorance, copy and paste without understanding. What exactly is Jesus fulfilling according to your copy and paste?
@@solidground338 you don’t know? Who’s truly ignorant!
If you’re an ridiculous apologist your claims it’s the prophecies. If you’re a realist it’s the laws of Moses.
Which one are you?
@@canbest7668 Bible is about a covenant system. What is a covenant? A covenant is an agreement between two or more parties, according to the Bible, God made a covenant with Adam, God made covenant with Noah, God made covenant with Abraham, God made a covenant with children of Israel, God also made a covenant with the whole world through Jesus Christ. Bible is about covenant, the word Testament means Covenant. When the Bible said Jesus didn't abolish the law but he fulfils it, it means Jesus came to put things right, things that was prophesied in the old testament that a messiah will do When He comes. Example, it was prophesied in the Book of isaiah that the messiah will set the captive free, open the eyes of the blind, bring good news to the poor, heal the broken-hearted. More so the messiah will be the ultimate sacrifice, the lamb that be slaughter for the remission of sin, these are the fulfilment the new testament is talking about.
@@solidground338 well it likely fiction anyway and reason points to Jesus being dead
It's appalling that we still need to explain this to so many people. The Bible is nothing more then a collection of ancient literature written by Jews.
You could base your moral world view on the Harry Potter books and get a similar result.
give me a break already.
you think that without religion, people will simply start being perfectly ratiin human beings and treat eachother with respect and dignity?
try justifying your position while in atheist China, the regime puts people in concentration camps, especially ethnic minorities.
not all religions at equal and humans have evolved. civilizations either collapse or transform into something good or bad.
"good" or "bad" is also subjective for lots of people depending on your background and culture.
Dam Harris is an idealist idiot that lives inside a bubble.
every single damn sci-fi novel or epic story always has a brim future in which although societies are technically and scientifically advanced, people still suffer from famine, racism, oppression, ethnic cleansing, etc.
Agree 💯
You can defend slavery in the Bible because people can offer themselves when they have nothing else to offer. It’s like taking a job unethical or not. And God doesn’t condone a lot of things but usually works with humans in their stuggles with sin. So as an example, yes Jesus or God could say something to the sort of slaves serve your masters well but that doesn’t mean God original plan on intentions for humans is to be slaves, it’s just literally addressing a common scenario that was seen in that time. I don’t know it doesn’t seem that complicated to me.
It’s not that complicated. Most of these people have never cracked a Bible or are too prideful or miseducated to understand it if they did. This thread is a circle jerk of arrogant mouth-breathers who think that being edgy is rebelling against the Bible, when their real problem is the religious Pharisees of our day.
It's not complicated unless someone hates the truth.
Early Christians had no means of enforcing an abolition on slavery. Slavery was a legally widely accepted practice within both empires (Roman and Parthia) and to violate those laws brought the weight of those institutions down upon those who resisted. Healtht pragmatism was the only sane option.
Slavery back in the day was when someone had an a large amount of debt and if he or she couldn’t pay, they would be a slave for a day or two days or maybe a month just to pay their debt
bollocks, that's just the weak excuses of a coward who can't face reality, accept it, own it, god was fine with slaves.
Excellent point, Sam.
@@coastline6027demonstrably false.
@@MR-gb5ib What's also demonstrably false is Harris' claim that the Bible "endorses slavery",
The Bible regulates slavery as it does divorce, but does not endorse it - They are two different things.
He made a logically fallacious leap.
there were no christians at the time of Jesus.
It was called “indenture servitude”. If a person is so poor and no way of paying the money back, they would work as a “slave” to the debtor until the debt was paid. It was a legitimate form of payment at that time
🐂💩
Call it what you want, it was slavery, brutal and god endorsed it. Exodus 21:20 'And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be asurely punished. 21 Notwithstanding, if he acontinue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.'
Not to mention god condones rape, if a nation decided to war against Israel, all the men were to be killed and all the women and children were to be considered spoils of war
Sure, for Hebrews. Foreigners didn't have that luxury, they could be owned as property for life, with no condition that they were sold into that position out of volition, or in more accurate terms, chattel slavery.
Sure, for Hebrews (Hebrew males more specifically, females could be sold by their fathers for life). Foreigners didn't have that luxury, they could be owned as property for life, with no condition that they were sold into that position out of volition, or in more accurate terms, chattel slavery.
Leviticus 25:39-46 makes this distinction abundantly clear, but lets not let that get in the way of your pretty little narrative 😊
Exodus 21:16 “Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death”
It’s funny when people that don’t know the Bible try to talk about it.
Shapiro is sometimes right, but mostly a fallacious weasel :)
Shapiro has what I would call a "powerful engine under the hood". However, he is clearly a slave to bias on MANY topics, and that bias aligns very well with common conservative biases so they listen to him and NEVER hear them.
@@MatthewCleere I definitely think he's more concerned with being seen as right than actually being logical or advancing humanity. Public debate is more stagecraft than just about anything. I'd much rather read long-form answers on policies and see the relevant data than hear thought leaders try to "destroy" each other. It's exhausting and holds us back.
Weasel is the perfect word to describe Ben.
He
Does nothing but criticize others yet he is so far behind being an awkward human himself
Awakened
I need the whole convo
spot on.
Jesus can't have said to serve Christian masters because Christianity wasn't formed until after his death.
Agreed, it's hard to grasp without a good education. Philosophy and goodwill help us find the right moral path, but the modern Western concept of morality is influenced by the New Testament and Greek philosophy. For instance, the New Testament emphasizes equality, stating that we are all equal in the eyes of God and that the poor can be closer to God than the rich. It's worth noting that British abolitionists were Christians, and John Locke, often regarded as the father of democracy, was also a Christian. Additionally, the New Testament encourages critical thinking by advising us to test everything and retain what is good. Therefore, it's important to use our minds.
the problem religists have though is that if i see someone try to - say- stab someone,
i try to stop them, whereas if you believe there is a god, you have to ask "god, did
you sanction this" - you have NO IDEA if stabbing someone is good or bad, you need
to be told. religists have NO MORALITY AT ALL.
Brilliant as usual from Sam.
From my understanding, biblical slavery is different from chattel slavery and war usually voluntary. Exodus 21:16 seems to be an explicit prohibition on the kind of slavery we saw in America
Read what it say and increase your understanding, don't go by secondhand interpretations.
Excelent Sam Harris
Where can I watch the full interview? I’d love to hear Harris tear squeaky mcsqeekster a new one.
I think if you search for Sam Harris and Ben Shapiro debate I would be surprised if it didn't show up. I watched it, very good video.
Jesus didn't say anything regarding slaves or slavery. The verse Sam Harris quoted was said by St. Paul in the Bible. Before criticizing Jesus atleast be sure what he said.
Yall out here paying people 8.50$ an hour crying about slavery. They treated their slaves better than you treat yours.
If i get paid 8.50 per hour, at least my boss can't take my children and sell them.
The fuck you talking about?
Yet he accepts gods gift of israel to any jew in the world,displacing non jews who have been there since time immemorial...
Replace slavery with employment
Wanna be my employee, I promise to only beat you within inch of your life
So U think, your boss can beat you as long as he wants as long as you don't die in a few days? Or maybe he also owns your children and grandchildren which he can sell whenever he wants????
#Exodus 21
You can quit your job any day you like. You can not quit slavery…
Jesus taught us to love one another. Fact: Christians led the effort to abolish slavery.
No one will ever agree on religion.
Because theres no god
@@ChillAssTurtle no, there has been many gods
@@tomevans4402 have been? Gods go away? Lol what
@@ChillAssTurtle read history, many gods. Over and over again
@@tomevans4402 ya, all made up
Your state of life, whether born a slave or your an indentured servant paying off a debt, or a 21st century worker with a boss, with an authority over you. The Bible doesn't ignore or skirt around human evils, slavery, rape, incest, murder... but if you are found in these situations, these are what have been happening and continue to happen. You are to work hard, whatever your lot in life. Be respectful regardless of how you are treated. Love your enemies and those who persecute you. It never says to serve your Christian masters especially well. Jesus calls people to repent, and turn away from evil. It's wrong to ever say it was indorsed, like it's got God's stamp of approval. It does not
Actually it is.
I‘m not a Christian but didn’t god rescue his people from slavery in Egypt? In my view that’s a pretty compelling case against slavery
The bible says that the Jews were delivered from Egypt. However, there isn't any evidence that Jews lived in Egypt for 430 years. That's a long time not to have something to show for it.
The Bible has sets of rules for owning people as property. That’s pretty pro slavery don’t ya think?
After 400 years, or 20 generations? Not the slam dunk you think it is
Except no biblical scholar thinks the story is remotely true. It's just a story.
@@robertbetz8461 better tell those "scholars" for whom the BuyBull is the "unalterable Word of God" that, because they don't seem to have got the memo...
Except God took His people OUT of slavery
And allowed them to enslave other s! Isn't God great.
P.s. the Hebrews were never slaves in egypt.
Which implies he knew it existed, & was not the workers paradise the Biblical apologists insist it was...
Sure, let’s just ignore the fact that the slaves in the Bible were payed and respected and weren’t actually slaves, but servants
If you don’t cherry pick the Bible, it’s different than you might think
If slavery where a paid position doesn’t that simply make them workers or servants? What’s the difference? 🤔
Respected slaves? Did they have like slaver contract they had to sign and honor? 😅
No where in the Bible does it support what you’re saying. It does however very clearly condone slavery, who to own, and the rules to own certain slaves. You should read the verses yourself rather than get a sugar coated and dishonest take from apologists.
@@armorris82
Under The Law of Moses it was illegal to oppress a foreigner living among you or a fellow Israelite. Therefore slavery had to be a consensual arrangement because forcing someone to be your slave is oppression. ✌🏼
You missed the part where you could take gentiles as slaves for life
@@jsmall10671
You could only if they consented. It was unlawful to oppress a foreigner (gentile).
Slavery in the bible didn't mean to dehumanize people the way America did.
You clearly didn’t read the Bible. Go read Genesis where Aberham send this concubine Hagar and his son Ishmael into the woods because Sarah didn’t want her some Issac to split his inheritance.
Ben confidently refers to abolition forgetting that the first religious objectors to slavery in the US were Quakers. Not mainstream Christians. Most Christians in the US weren’t abolitionists and supported the status quo.
The Quakers are Christians....they're a sect of Protestantism.
The bulk of the abolitionist movement was run by Christian groups. Not many atheists running around at the time. The overwhelming majority of the hundreds of thousands who died fighting over this were a) White, and b) Christian. It's unheard of for a nation to break into civil war over the enslavement of an out-group. It's never happened. It happened in America, at the time a nearly ubiquitously Christian nation.
@@doubtshadow1 Well yes technically the Quakers were Christians in that they believed in Jesus - but that’s about all they had in common with the mainstream practice of Christianity during that time. They didn’t believe in the church, they didn’t believe in war, they believed in total spiritual equality among the sexes among other revolutionary ideas.
Most people in the US called themselves Christians during that time (and now) so obviously most of the people on both sides of the issue were Christians. That’s just logic. But it’s important to remember the abolitionists of the time were considered extremists and outcasts in the mainstream Christian community.
It was the southern Christians particularly that derived their white supremacist beliefs directly from the Old Testament. (Some things never change) So it’s really important not to generalize. Not all Christians are the same - not all Christians actually practiced the teachings of Christ.
Please tell me you know that Quakers were Protestant Christians? People cannot be this stupid.
*edit* you went back and edited your post to correct your obvious error after I pointed it out and without acknowledgment. This is a great demonstration of the ethics of atheists. Just like Sam Harris, the only ethics are power.
@@wisdomsdoorstep Well I’m not sure if the other folks on this thread are aware of that - but it’s not really relevant. The point remains that during that time mainstream American Christians were overwhelmingly pro slavery.
@@devinneiss4198 This is patently false. The American abolitionist movement and the hundreds of thousands of Union sacrifices and casualties demonstrate that there were millions of abolitionists, many of whom willing to die to blot out slavery in the United States alone. Stop pretending that progressive, atheist propaganda is history. It’s not. And you didn’t even know that Quakers were Christians, demonstrating either a poor or propagandized education.
Slavery in the Bible was not based off race. In the time the Bible was written, slavery was viewed as a way to pay off a debt to another. Once the debt was paid, your servanthood/slavehood was over. One message seen throughout the Bible is that all men are created equal, in the image of God. It’s also important to keep in mind when reading the Bible we need the Bible’s historical context, not our own. If you’ve actually read the Bible and understand those proper contexts, you’ll know Sam’s reasoning is completely false.
You can't deny the New Testament is a pretty good book Sam as a buddhist
The gold medal for mental gymnastics goes to..... You
@@slavaukraine963 thanks, worked hard for it
lmao did you even read it?
@Evisceration by Turtle you read dictionaries for meaning
@Evisceration by Turtle you claimed it is horrid because it consists of nonsense. Either this or you're bad at expressing your aeguments
It's funny that people can not grasp the concept of how necessary slavery was back then, considering how underdeveloped society was.
"Slavery" back then was extremely different from our westernized view of it. It was a way of life, a way to provide for your family and ensure their security as much, if not much more so, as getting a job with a good company today, as well az a result of primitive war, which would hopefully be better than simply annihilating all captives.
And endorsed is not AT ALL what slavery is in the Bible. Hearing Sam talk about this stuff makes me think he simply never read the Bible. Which would give me a higher opinion of him than carelessly reading the Bible. It is simply ASSUMED. Because it was simply a way of life back then, what humans did and allowed to be done to survive.
Sam sounds very ill-read indeed here.
So Yahweh was affected by time? So much for omnipotent being
@@CCP-Lies Yawh doesn't force humans out of their sin.
The Bible isn’t about God condoning these awful things. It’s a record of history.
It can't be only a record of history and a moral teaching full of metaphors at the same time, you have to pick one. Otherwise you are unfortunately cherry picking.
the bible is tripe mate.
you do realise that jesus wrote nothing right?
and you do realise nothing was written about him until ten years after he was dead?
and that christianity is based on one bloke having a hallucination he saw a dead bloke he NEVER MET?
no one has a clue what jesus said, did or thought.
Why would a grown man sit around fighting something he doesn’t believe in if there wasn’t some kind of an internal conflict going on?
Because of the actual harm the religious do to society, like the current anti-lgbtq insanity engulfing the right in america.
your logic is so bad lmao
Because it's morally repugnant?
there is a lot of wisdom in the bible though. We can all recognize that. Doesn't mean its perfect. It was written by humans who thought they were talking to invisible beings after all.
Like not boiling baby goats in the mother goats blood. Thats a pearl of wisdom for sure :)
@@ChillAssTurtle no that’s some of the bs. If you can’t see that there is any wisdom in the Bible at all, obviously there is. You don’t distill thousands of years of human knowledge without coming up with at least SOMETHING of value in there.
@@undergroundsubway7023 nothing new.. it just copy n pasted pre existing stuff lol please read the book and the history of relevant regions
@@ChillAssTurtle you don’t think there is anything of value in terms of wisdom of the Bible? Whether that material was copied or altered being passed down. Either way there is some good life lessons in there. It’s like a glass of fine wine filled with flies
@@undergroundsubway7023 they stole do to others as you would have done unto you from confuscious.. thats more or less wise.. they stole it though lol no original new wisdom is in the bible no. Its all grafted on from other people.
Thank goodness we evolved with time and realized that buying and selling human beings was immoral and that we should work together for the greater good of humanity so we could all have a life worth living
This comment section is like a picture of npcs enjoying sams farts
Except at no point in the Bible does it say, you shall have slaves. There is no specific endorsement, and it was biblical reasoning that led the English to ban the slave trade and encourage everyone else to do so as well.
Sam you lost me years ago bro 🤦🏻♂️
Why?
Youve been lost for far longer
@@DamnThatsFunny308 he just talks so much shit about religion instead of respecting individuals rights and hes a sellout to crooked politicians
He started losing me years ago but he lost me completely with his "children's corpses in the basement" remark a few months back.
I am far from atheist but I agree with Sam here lol
Hey friends. The Bible’s endorsement of slavery is a common misunderstanding. In 2023 when we hear the word “slave” we think primarily of the African Slave trade that ran from the 1500’s to the late 1800’s. The Bible, ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE endorses that slavery or the mistreatment of people like this. When the Bible refers to slaves, it’s referring to sort of like a bond servant. In the ancient world, there were no banks and people did not live as independently as we do now. The marketplace was limited. Entrepreneurship wasn’t like it is today. There were no companies to go work for. Instead of getting a job, you’d become a sort of bond servant for a wealthy family.
Back then, a wealthy family wouldn’t go see a doctor, they would employ one. They’d have their own doctor that just worked for them. That doctor would be referred to as a “slave.” Basically, a servant of a wealthy family. Same with farmers, chefs, butchers, servants, etc. Wealthy folks just employed these people as bond servants. This was acceptable in this culture. Instead of receiving a check every week from a company like we do now, a person would receive room and board and then a severance package if you will, when their time was up. After a period of time a bond servant was released from their duties and given something for their time. Usually riches like livestock and maybe land. Kind of like military service. Our service people have limited freedom because they have to report to the government but after a period of time they are released from their responsibilities. This sort of bond service is what the Bible is referring to when it references slaves. In Ephesians where the Bible says for slaves to be obedient to your masters, it’s basically telling people to be a good employee. Honor your employer and don’t steal from them or shame them. Later when the Bible says for masters to not mistreat their slaves, it’s basically saying , “be good to your employees.”
However, the Bible has been cited as an authority for evil people to commit atrocities for centuries…. Millennia actually. The Bible even says that people will do this.
Another confusion is Biblical translation. Some folks believe the Bible to be full of fallacies because of how many times it has been translated. This isn’t true. The Bible is translated simply so people can understand it in their own language. As our language changes with each generation, we have a need to update this ancient language to modern speech. Jesus spoke the language of the people of his day. The goal of modern Biblical translations is to speak to people in their own language. With that being said, if you go check a modern translation of the Bible like The Message or the NKJV, you’ll see that the word slave is often swapped out for servant. Because the Bible does not endorse what we, today refer to as slavery.
However, evil people who benefited from the African Slave Trade would often times point to the Bible as their way of reckoning with their own conscience or to make others go along with them. To keep society in line with them.
The Bible was was also used as an authority during the Spanish inquisition…. Evil people will always twist God’s word for their gain. That’s what Satan did in the very beginning and that’s what he’s still doing now.
But the truth is that the Bible is good. God is good. God loves you.
What is found in the bible is immoral.
You have to read the Bible in context. It’s not a rewriting of history, it’s reading history without looking through our modern day lenses. In the Bible, slavery was used as a means of avoiding homelessness and ruin, someone would agree to slavery because of their poor circumstances or life choices and the agreement was never a life sentence. Slavery was used as a temporary solution to a problem.
If anyone is rewriting history it’s this man.
You obviously have not read the Bible. This atheist has and I find large parts of it truly disgusting.
Love your neighbors as yourself.
As humans we will never understand or be able to comprehend God until we are being judged.
God bless you all
Bit hard on slaves, that...
god has never stopped any evil in the world, never stopped a war, never stopped a theft, never stopped slavery - there is no god, we do all the work.
@HarryNicholas For you that may be a true THOUGHT but for me your statement sounds as reasonable as the tooth fairy. So you alone can prove God has done nothing and I'm suppose to take your words and run with it? Your making a false claim and stating it as facts.
Evil you say? If there is no God how can there be evil? If there's Evil there's Good and how do we objectively differentiate the two as faliable human beings?
@philcoombes2538 mm Christians were the ones who abolished slavery. And your looking at slavery with modern eyes. It was a form to pay off debts. ALSO in the New Testament Jesus made the first claim WE are ALL equal. Everyone.
God Bless
He just said it " reinterpreting rather aggressivelly" and he reads the bible and interprets the bible on his own convenience.
Don't be ignorant.. Slavery was common in that time. Slaves obey your masters is the same as employees obey your superiors.
Ben’s retort is predictable, “except for the abolitionists”…… uh yea dude, particularly driven by an early form of humanism in direct reaction to religious persecution, religion was created to treat curiosity, boredom and depression at a time when goats where slaughtered for favorable weather😂
The Bible days don’t play with Sam.
Was Sam 'forced to ignore' exodus 21:16, 'So you must purge yourself of evil amoung you. And he that steals a man and sells him, or he be found in hand, he shall shall surely be put to death. So you see, there IS a place in the Bible where you can get a compelling case against slavery
Not when properly studied.
Slavery is not = evil
People in debt are slaves to the lender
Slavery was an economic necessity in ancient times, but not vital today. Bible had guidelines for slaves back then. For example, no forced enslavement. Bible also has guidelines for our economy today. We say the undocumented workers do the job that nobody wants to do for underpaid wage. James 5:5 said those who work the field for low wage cries out while we live luxurious lives. We fatten our hearts for day of slaughter. God is not mocked, we all have sinned. Judge not that you be not judged as with the same measure you judge, it will be applied to you.