The Self is an Illusion - Sam Harris
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- Опубликовано: 28 мар 2024
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Sam Harris is a neuroscientist, philosopher, New York Times best-selling author, host of Making Sense, and creator of Waking Up.
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Alex O'Connor
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Watch the full, three-hour conversation now: www.patreon.com/posts/101184504?
Is it only in full via Patreon or a delay for it to hit RUclips please Mr O'Connor? Also, finding you on RUclips has really helped with my decades old depression, the art of thinking...thank you.
No thanks.
Watch this back and look for structure and demonstration rather than opinion and woo.
This is woo.
Alex, if you want to meditate, better to start with a group experience. There is a synergy in groups where the sum is greater than the parts. We are like 60 watt bulbs. If we plug into a grid, the power available is much greater.
I worked in psyche rehab for 10 years leading meditations. I used a simple meditation of being silent and listening to music and invoking what is called "the healing stream". Energy filled the room. People with serious addiction and mental health issues found themselves deeply affected by the experience. the peace was palpable.
If the self is an illusion, then who is experiencing/having the illusion?
@@TheHuxleyAgnostic your mind, your brain, or your body.
1:43
Sam:"Have you ever taken psychedelics?"
Alex:"I have, yeah."
*Hitchens from the background:"Of course you have, you're obsessed with drugs!"*
😂😂😂 I can't.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH, this is a brilliant one!
Yes I have...a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers... and also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of Budweiser, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls...
Fear and loathing 👍🏽@@Thedeepseanomad
I read it in hitchens voice lol
Sams right eyebrow is raising higher and higher every time I see him
The comment I was looking for
Same!
Lmao😊
Because it's an illusion of Sam's right eyebrow!
@@Darth_Niki4 🤣
“You are the universe experiencing itself.”
-Alan Watts
It’s like we’re all the swamp monster except this is barely allegory. Mind blowing to think about!
What else could it be.
Bah, that's when it moves from a useful tool into pseudo religious meta physics
Oh, so the universe has a self?
@@joejohnson6327 bravo, nicely put
This is one of those rare times i find myself thinking "oh i just really hope these two hit it off" and i care more about how they interact than the conversation itself.
Perhaps its because no matter how long this single discussion ends up being, there would be nothing i enjoy more than 2 dozen more of them over the next decade.
🤢🤮
💯
The pinned comment says it's 3 hours, so I think you're in luck
Well said. Good point.
@Drengodr I just read it now and I chuckled a little. I listen to Sam's podcast too so I'm used to longer format, but Alex's are usually shorter. It figures that it's Sam, of all people, that he gets a full 3 hours out of.
I feel pretty thankful that Sam Harris is patient enough to talk about this topic everywhere he goes. I struggle with mindfulness, and understanding it, but each time it is explained, I feel lucky to be forced back to true consciousness, even if for brief moment, and reminded how important it is to keep trying.
Yeah I love that he can continuously have this patience and even enthusiasm to talk about it, and that he always does it in such depth and with his remarkable articulacy. It's like someone said in the comments about Sapolsky, he's done so many interviews about the free will stuff, but never seems to get bored with it.
Have you tried his waking up app?
Oddly, what he describes about the experience of oneness through psychedelics is something I feel like I only overcame the last time I used psylocibin. Oneness seemed to be a good thing until I realized that what it really meant was one consciousness existing forever alone, like a never-ending single player game in which you can change characters and perspectives indefinitely but never actually encounter or interact with another player. The idea that independent selves exist, however difficult it may be to understand how that could be possible, would be the only way that the understanding could shift from "oneness" to "being at one." The former is horrific to consider, while the latter seems better fitting for the labels of warmth, love, etc. Basically, the latter is a pleasant concept of being one fish in a school of fish that happen to collectively create the illusion of one big fish while the latter is a dismal idea of there actually existing only one fish that delusionally experiences its own self through myriad superficial perspectives. At 14:25, Alex does actually give a little pushback about this, but Sam shifts the subject a bit rather than addressing Alex's objection directly.
@@Sylar-451Yes it has been good for me. Makes perfect sense.
@@Cody-qh3os So I feel drawn to respond to this. Mainly because you bring up a lot of good points to consider. Your perspective is actually quite relatable to my own except I don't see either side as being better than the other. The creators decision to create the illusion of separation within itself was not born out of loneliness. It came from a sudden flash of awareness. The understanding that it could know itself. Conceptually it's very much like the Big Bang. We are a beautiful part of that.
It's sort of paradoxical because both things are true. The fact that we are incarnated onto Earth, into physical bodies, and grapple with these concepts are proof that our physical existence is extremely precious, even if you only believe in the physicality of it all. There is an importance to this "illusory" space of separation that we find ourselves in. We get to come across other aspects of ourselves and truly believe it is separate. We get to have genuine expressions of our own Free Will, and Co-create alongside the creator. We create the encounters and interactions alongside the creator, in the present moment, and help it Define what it is in that moment. It is one thing to know the potentials, but the real magic is the unique unfoldment of those potentials into reality.
So the separation is important for knowing ourselves, but the deeper truth is that we have this innate, fundamental connection with everything. That we are all One, and infinitely connected in a holographic, fractal, universe. You can learn to connect to the creation, because you are it. We do this through the moment, which is all that there really is,
At least this is my experience. I'd love to hear your take on everything. I just felt I wanted to share about my thonking.
“The more we make inner progress, the more the number of those with whom we can truly communicate decreases.”
-Emil Cioran
Gotta love Cioran haha
Inner progress is a lie. There is no where to go except up your own arse.
Gandalf, excusing talking to himself, mentioned something about the ancient tradition of discussing matters with the wisest person present.
The gravity of this statement pains me. My understanding has grown significantly over the past years, and it's a slippery slope talking with people generally about spirituality. I feel like I look a little more looney the deeper my understanding goes.
@@NenJiDaPassiv That kinda shows you have no understanding. Spirituality doesn't lead to insight or wisdom, it is effectively closing your mind. IT's no coincidence the parallels that are drawn between spirituality and conservatism, ironically. You are just creating a bubble for yourself only you can't see it. You believe you are gaining understanding when in fact you are deluding yourself.
Your words also tell me you don't understand the quote nor the man who said it, if you did you'd see the irony.
Sam and Alex in conversation, what a wondeful treat!!!
Agreed. uwu
Two of my favourite public intellectuals in conversation. This is incredibly exciting. I hope it's the first of many talks. I think Alex is just as sharp and clear thinking, if not even more, in religious debates as Sam has been. This podcast is a real treat.
I've always wanted alex to delve deeper into eastern philosophies and mindfulness. He's a brilliant mind and it would be a treat to watch him unfold these concepts.
I am so excited for the full podcast!
Does anyone know when it's being released?
I never saw Alex nervous and he is not an intense expressive nervous dude, but you can clearly see he is so happy of being face to face with one of his idols. It’s like he is: “OMG IS SAM HARRIS” the entire time haha 😂
Exactly how I am watching them both together
👁️👄👁️
@@movepauserestore ME TOO HAHA 🤣
Is Sam Harris even that well regarded outside the space of "popular philosophy?"
Though I guess an atheist speaker would also look up to another well regarded atheist speaker.
@@aaryan346 Yes he is. But since his field is more close to science than philosophy it’s a little different.
Id say Sam is a very popular "public intellectual".
On a Vipassana 10 day meditation course (the practice that got sam going on the meditation path) the teacher said to me, most of the world just talks about this, here, we are doing it"
And thats so true.
How was your experience?
@@Vn-ye3km it wasn't exactly a walk in the park, and still isn't, I almost left on day 2 thinking I wasn't ready. But I persisted and its the most worthwhile thing I've ever done. Now I do 1 or 2 courses a year. and practice once or twice daily, It gets easier and easier over time. I feel incredibly lucky to have been drawn to it. I could have easily missed this deeper perspective my whole life and gone on generating ever more layers of complexes ignorantly. Now I'm going in the other direction and am filled with gratitude for how my mind has changed over the past 6 years. Thanks for asking :)
@@constantchange1145 thanks for the reply 🙏
Did you get high or visions or rather how did it change you if I may ask?
@@Vn-ye3km I didn't get high or have visions, though some do report all sorts of different transient experiences. I wouldnt say anything better than how Sam put it in this video. It has to be practiced to be experienced. And I'm careful about how I explain my experiences with it, because it's so helpful to go in without any expectations, with an open mind and ready to work. 🌱🌳 if you're looking for amazing high, bliss experiences or profound visions, that wanting might hinder progress in deeper insights or wisdom.
@@constantchange1145 what have you realised about the reality by doing this meditation..??
This was such a treat. Thank you, Alex.
I like the use of the gym and its outcome. As a meditator of almost 10 years (and waking up subscriber), there is still much to learn while simultaneously beginning again. Thank you both.
I like thay you adress the existential anxiety that is available when doing philosophy. I considered myself weak-minded when I lost some of the footing i thought i had, when i exposed myself to these questions and all their possible answers. Im glad that im not alone in thise experiences. And i love that Sam and you finally got a talk. Its been a long time coming.❤
I'm surprised how little Alex knows about Eastern Philosophy and meditation.
Yeah I thought that aswell with him doing a degree in theology
I guess he can't be knowledgeable on every theology related topics.
Philosophy too. Isn't theology mostly Christianity? @@coast73
Theology is very broad. @@coast73
A guy who is zen having no familiarity with Eastern meditation and philosophy is immensely ironic to me.
Informative! I geek out on this!
And what did you learn?
Immensely thankful to Alex and Sam Harris n RUclips for the video!!
Can't wait for the full episode!
This is what people think they sound like when they are high or drunk.
Stoked to see this whole conversation !
uwu
When Sam says at the end, that “the feeling of I” requires a prerequisite, a light by which I notice this feeling, I was instantly reminded of Heidegger’s concept of being-in-the-world. Which was, at least for me, an eye opener.
Thank you for bringing all these legends in one place.
When the student is ready, the teacher will appear
Amazingly accurate saying I've found..
Confucius right..?
Alex won't find a better mentor than Sam.
No student was ready
I hope Alex will trip with Sam. He’s “get it” then. And it’d change his entire worldview, making it more complete in a profound way.
😂
The self observing itself deconstruct itself is still the self. The self believing it doesn’t exist is still the self. The self as a noun may be an illusion, but as Bucky Fuller said, “I seem to be verb.”
You notice he can't even describe the experience without terms like "you". The transcendental unity of consciousness is never an object of consciousness but is always the basic condition of any possible object of consciousness. But Buddhist philosophy is more concerned with bringing you to that state of recognition than it is in giving it an accurate metaphysical interpretation.
I mean self and "you" are both illusions lol
@@koffeeblack5717
@@koffeeblack5717 any recommended reading/listenjng on this point?
@@koffeeblack5717The english language doesn't allow for one to not use such terms as the language is a product of its culture and its philosophies. You can describe it much better in Pali for example
@@koffeeblack5717 seems like a deficiency in language not experience
Enjoyed the convo...Alex is a smart young guy and he's getting better all the time...I wish him well...
Alex is getting wiser and wiser
thats true for litterally every human being on the planet. But okay.
@@Mikael-jt1hk Not necessarily. He’s starting to _get it,_ he’s getting closer and closer. There are many people on the planet who have no idea and are nowhere close…
@@epicbehavior Get what? Nowhere close to what? The more you learn and the more you understand....the less you actually do.
There are people out there, many people, who gain new information and either refuse to do anything about it, or flat out reject it because it does not align with their world view. Regardless of the truth of the new information. So no, not everyone gets wiser lol
@@DirtmopAZ Yep, and it’s very obvious he has enough awareness and IQ such that he can go from being _skeptical_ about something to things clicking quickly.
You can assess someone intelligence pretty accurately by watching how they take on new concepts and what they do with it.
Am I the only one that believes that this "self is an illusion" philosophy is just idiotic?
Who knows. Maybe I am just deceived by my illusionary self.
Really enjoying watching where your curiosity is taking you
I’ve had an ego death experience and it wasn’t a net positive on my life. It led to me losing stuff I feel was helpful like my will, my agency and my creativity. Maybe if it happened on purpose after years of religious practices, losing my desires and sense of self would of felt like a relief. But to me, the resulting time afterwards felt a lot more like disassociation and depression
Sam Harris! Wow!! Go on, Alex! it's great to watch your career going stellar, dude. You're very good!👍
Seeing this interview, I think it would really interesting to have Dr. K from the channel HealthyGamerGG to come on to talk about philosophy, the idea of consciousness, and maybe more in-depth meditation.
I've been meditating for 4 years, thanks to discovering Sam Harris' app during the pandemic. It has significantly changed my life, but one thing I've always struggled with was this idea of "scrutiny of self" that he always describes. This video helped me finally get a glimpse of it for the first time. Thanks for sharing this conversation.
Props on Alex for letting Sam interview himself.
Just listening to these guys talk about this subject is so wonderful. I've loved Sam and Alex for a long time and seeing both of them now, describing a phenomenon I enjoy, is just bunkers.
Exactly my thoughts!
Sam started my mindfulness journey back in 2014 (as well as my off again on again love for bjj) and he and Alex were the first atheistic content I consumed after leaving Christianity. It truly feels like I was "born again" as an atheist and like I've been waiting for these two minds to meet my entire life.
The gym analogy is great
Thank you Alez
This new style of videos is great
"There is only experience"
That says it all. It's not too complicated.
If there is a "you", you are literally made of all your experiences.
Everyone thinks they are "me".
So the so-called "self" is merely a composite of its experiences? Does this mean the self doesn't truly exist, only the experiences exist and the brain generates a consciousness based on these experiences?
@@chaunceyfauntleroymontgome3535 if the experiences exist and the self is just a phenomenon that expresses the entirety of experiences, then wouldn’t that mean the self also exists the same experiences do
self is just another experience in the panorama
@_Sloppyham I should think so, but the inescapability of the effects of one's own genetic predispositions and environment, make me wonder how the self can possibly exist. This thing we view as our unique self is so heavily constrained by our external and internal environment that it makes it hard to think of a quality that is truly inherent to that self. Think of your personal 'self', for example. Can you think of a quality of your 'self' that can not be traced to some environmental/social/cultural factor or genetic predisposition? If not, where can we locate this supposed unique self? As far as my dumb ass can tell, nowhere.
I'm probably wrong about all this but it's fun to think about anyway
Why are you taking what Sam Harris is saying as Gospel. There is most definitely a self. To deny this is to deny one of the most basic obvious facts of existence and experience. Our experiences, influences, and behaviors mold our "self", for the better or the worse. What is most profound is that our inner self innately knows to a degree what is wrong and right behavior. And when we behave contrary to our nature, we experience pain, regret, Anxiety and suffer. The self must be nurtured through behaving and thinking in ways that are in congruence with our inner nature or else the dissonance causes inner upheaval and unrest. This is the fundamental claim of religion. That the Creator after having created man based on a certain nature than revealed guidance that was in line with man's inner nature, by following which mankind could attain peace on the personal, familial, national and international levels.
Weren't there a lot of scandels with Better help? Like them illegally selling personal therapy data, and the therapists not actually being qualified to do what they do?
Could you elaborate on your considerations to partner with better help?
Look. They're sponsoring our favourite RUclipsrs and providing sufficient funding to help them do worthwhile projects like this one. Let's all just quietly let it happen and agree not to use their services.
@William1w1 that would work, but only if everyone was aware that they are no good.
People tend to trust their favourite youtubers as well, especially someone like Alex, who tends to do his research. My point is that not everybody knows they're bad, and thus, people will get scammed. Not good!
Sam Harris’ Waking Up app is incredible. It’s helped me and taught me so much.
I am amused at what a high-INT low-WIS idea it is to say that the most real thing that any of us can experience is an illusion. 'If I don't understand how it works, then it's just unknowable or not even really there.'
Alex please learn more about Buddhism. Keen for the full episode!
Hearing sam explain everything I've personally observed myself doing, like distinguishing the separation from hearing and consciousness and the separation from self, etc...
Just feels crazy reflecting on things and just trying to grow intellectually as a person. Coming across a video expressing the ability for others to do that too is so cool.
Also reading the comments saying about how this is all essentially Buddhism and how alex didnt already know, as someone from the uk i can totally see how you would be able to come to being mindful without necessarily needing knowledge of eastern cultures as they can be quite stigmatised in the uk thus other methods will likely be taken for self improvement before then exploring those cultures
It's not Buddhism though because it's not true. Oneness is just an illusion.
@Darkloid21 i don't know if you're saying his perception of being able to analyse the thoughts and impulses happening in your brain isn't true or that Buddhism isn't true. As for Buddhism, I didn't say or necessarily believe it's true, especially when it comes to assention or becoming a higher state. I believe we are just what we are animals on a big rock. But I was simply saying it's understandable that someone from the uk wouldn't be so aware to the concepts within Buddhism
@@DRoW1l His perception of being able to analyze these things is wrong. It’s sad to see as a neuroscientist he doesn’t see that mediation just alters the blood flow to the areas of the brain that maintain our separateness from other things around us. He’s not talking about insight but literally just the result of altering your brain.
He’s also wrong about what meditation leads to. It’s just sad to see them both so wrong about it. Nevermind that mediation affects everyone wildly differently and psychedelic experiences don’t mean or prove anything.
@Darkloid21 curiosly, doesn't it bode for his point in some ways. What I mean is, the way i see it, the whole meditation thing is meant to be a parallel to being able to alter how your brain is functioning as if you were to take drugs of a kind. What we think and feel are just combinations of those electro signals and hormones, and like you said, bloodflow / oxygen levels all having different effects on our consciousness. Unless I'm completely misunderstanding, being able to observe that your consciousness/internal monologue is dictated by these things as opposed to believing we are special with higher levels of being, we're just essentially super smart monkeys. The way I think of it is that our internal monologue is just one of if not our best problem solving tool. But our sense of identity and self develope as its best way to discern our impacts on others and theirs to us. I can sit talking to friends playing games and completely dissociate from my sense of self or identity, purely in the moment. And I just hope that the point of the meditation or breathing practice is just a way to realise that our sense of self or identity is infact dictated by those impulses, thoughts will come to use whether we want to think them or not. And come a fair few situations discerning that 'I want' type of thought, especially an impulse to consume something we know we shouldn't, helps greatly to understand our body's effects on our thought processes and in some way give us a small element of controll by trying to understand why we thought what we thought.
Anyway, that's how I interpret it, but I, too, am not a neuroscientist, so if I got things wrong, clarification would be great.
Ty for reading anyhow
@@DRoW1l Not really. He’s not saying these are just chemicals, but at the same time he’s talking about this divorced from the spiritual context that makes it make sense.
An alteration to normal functioning doesn’t lead to truth here. There is a center putting this all together and experiencing it and it’s the brain. We even know where the self is located as well.
Your “sense” of self is a self not just a sense. You aren’t dissociating when you play games. In fact a lot of that processing happens prior to you being aware of it, so your thoughts are really just you being aware of what the brain already decided.
In short he’s wrong about everything in this. He has no idea what he is talking about and it shows. Not only does he get the neuroscience wrong but also the spiritual aspects of it. There is a reason you can’t talk about meditation outside the schools that teach it. Otherwise you end up with idiots like Sam who don’t know what they’re talking about.
You don’t have control over your thoughts and whether you want to think them and that’s not what meditation is about. Honestly people need to stop listening to Sam, he’s fallen off. Being a clear communicator doesn’t mean you know what you’re talking about.
Like in the last part, consciousness is a sense too, a sense of being aware. We are reducible to a sense, we aren’t more than that. Our brains take in data and model reality, not really perceive it. We even make predictions to compensate for our perception lag. So consciousness isn’t some prior thing to sensation, it is sensation. It’s impossible to be in the moment
We are the mind, not consciousness, everything he’s talking about is thought. Even that state of just being is thought and mind too.
Like I said, he knows nothing.
Sam is always interesting meditating is really helpful I've been doing it for months and I am more productive and less emotional would recommend to anyone
I have found that so much of the struggle in contemplating these topics comes down to a definitional problem.
We often are using the terms “conscious” and “self” differently than others are in a conversation and we end up speaking at orthogonals to each other.
It's my sincere hope that Alex commits more fully to the endeavor of investigating consciousness and its associated subjects.
The addition of someone with his exceptional articulation and keen analytical abilities to this domain would be immensely valuable.
We would greatly benefit from having such a brilliant communicator and sharp thinker join the space.
Took a couple of hits of acid once in college, and about 7 hours in, I realized that my emotions had flown off somewhere. It wasn't bad, it good, just weird. We headed home from our adventure, and once there, I was compelled to listen to a specific album. All of the emotions came crashing back on me and I felt so free and fine. Like all was right in the universe.
What was the album? 👀
TELL US DESERT SKY GUY, WHAT WAS THE ALBUM
What. Is. The. Album?
Until he spills the beans, may I suggest _Science_ by Incubus. That has been the soundtrack to many a trip for me. Or how about the Screaming Headless Torsos. I was on acid the first time I heard them and I was completely enthralled.
@@nuynobi FUDGE YEAH SCIENCE BY INCUBUS
Ok, I would definitely love to see a lot more conversations between these two.
Harris has made it quite far, imagine being able to meet Alex!
(seriously, I high Harris in very high esteem, but I just love seeing Alex being actual, full-time philosopher. Remember taking a look at this teen-age youtuber who was already thinking way better than most academic adults I knew)
I think that's going a bit far. He's a RUclipsr, not a full-time philosopher. Does he have an academic qualification is philosophy? Does he hold an academic post? Has he had any papers published in academic journals? Has he come up with any new theories?
@@omp199 fair points, but there are several actual philosophers who haven't created any new relevant theories, I mean things that make people think in radically new, better way.
I'm more interested in merits or actual effect than academic titles. With CS background in uni I definitely value academics, but when it comes to rational thinking, epistemology and religion, I'd imagine Alex has caused much more good than all our most famous philosophers in Finland combined, due to his polite, witty questions he started asking publicly already during his early years.
This is a method that was helpful for me personally with this sort of thing:
Asking myself: who do I believe I am? Whatever comes up, I notice it. Because I notice it, that means I am behind it, and it is not me, so I let it go of what came up. What am I thinking about next? Is that me? If not, I also let it go, because I am looking for my true self. I continue to let go of everything that is not me (not push it away, just relinquish it, just letting it drift away). Lo and behold, I am left with only raw experience at the end, not having found myself anywhere, I am left with no self.
And what got me here? The act (sensation?) of letting go of each of the things that came up prior.
So for me, re-accessing No-self becomes as simple as 'letting go' and learning to consistently access that sensation (action?) without even having to go through that questioning process, just letting go, and then sitting with what is left: no self, just experience.
I think this also ties in with the 'No-free will" stuff. Who is it behind your experience that is trying to control it, to access the no-self, to do anything? If there is no free will, who is trying to control what? Just a dog trying to hold its own leash.
Very well put.
Who lets go?
Just be mindful of this idea of "letting go" because it can be a subtle thought or image one is identified with. You can't actually grasp experience or let go, you can only become aware of that which was unable to be grasped in the first place. If you do have thoughts or images of "letting go", you want to be aware of that as yet another object in consciousness 👍
@@richardmccabe2392 thank you for the tip!
Sam Harris talks, I listens
Underrated comment
@@zouhe1r underrated response 🙏
Stop he is actually really dumb
Have you listened to his views on Gaza?
@@ZER0-- I have not
It was a good talk. To really relate what Sam Harris tries to convey there is a need to try a Tibetan type of meditation with open eyes. It's not difficult to practice and it's interesting experience.
From about 17:00 to about 20:15 was VERY GOOD!
These discussions about self, etc, are more relevant than ever, in an age of the dawn of AGI.
I cannot wait for the full release of this episode!
Beautiful conversation. I’m understanding what Iam more every day 🙏🏾
Alex cranking up that stage light
Very interesting conversation. I was typing some notes earlier, and had a memory of high school typing class (is that even a thing anymore?) remembering the struggle to get words from my mind through the typewriter and on to the paper accurately. I think our thoughts are similar in that we are practiced at thinking, and our subconscious just takes over. Kind of like driving. The first month of driving took some effort and attention, but once you were practiced the motions just started to flow. The problem is that all that subconscious flow into the world is only governed by past experiences, reactions, and environments, and has very little to do with who we are. I am a life coach and I have seen more lives turned around just by realizing that we mistakenly identified ourselves by the flow of the subconscious.
This is something I have hoped for for quite a while. That one or some of these deep skeptics would find an intimate conversation with someone who can translate esoteric or mystical experiences (mostly as part of Eastern, not Abrahamic thought) into language and ideas the western mind can take in. Harris is very good at this, as were Ram Dass and Alan Watts, and it takes talent to do this well. This is a huge step away from discourses with fundamentalist Christian theists. Dawkins had conversations with a Hindu scholar and a Buddhist monk and neither had this particular talent, therefore the communication was clumsy and ineffective.
Harris presents a basic, non challenging, non theist basis for his perceptions, which have a strong Buddhist flavor (which is a non theist philosophy but has recognition of transcendental reality as part of the nature of things), but he speaks from a base of his own experience, which is important.
This is what I have been trying to get across for quite a while. That the nature of self, of consciousness and existence ( they haven't gone to the latter from what I have seen, Harris is very careful to lay a very strong foundation) has very little to do with conventional Abrahamic religious thinking and acknowledges profoundly that consciousness exists beyond the perceptions or operations of the intellect.
I applaud Alex for his openness and refusal to indulge in resistance. More than interesting.
The analogy at the end is similar to one I use in that there are not common reference points. If someone has lived in a desert for hundreds of years and you talk about swimming in the vast ocean, they most likely would think you are nuts. Harris does an exemplary job of describing weight lifting as an example.
In Shogun Toranaga asks Blackthorne to share his knowledge of the world. What Blackthorne tells him completely blows Toranaga's mind because it is so outside of his field of conception and experience, and Toranaga is an exceptionally intelligent and astute human being.
There is no such thing as "esoteric" or "mystical" experiences.
@@threestars2164 blanket statements have a hard time being completely truthful
why? religions don't have anything to offer to either science or skepticism, lol
@@threestars2164 Clarify please
@@victorgreen6944 Books and books and sacred texts have been written about this and there have been thousands if not millions of hours of discourse. I am not here to write another one as a comment and recapitulate what now in our time is readily and easily available.
I accidentally took somewhere around 50-70 hits of LSD. (I took an eyedrop container into the bathroom at a concert, I was trying to give myself a drop and instead I squirted the entire thing.)
I sat there and stared at a statue of Bhudda in a friend's house after the concert.
I experienced an ego death, as in I did not have a sensation of self anymore. What I had were flashing visions of the faces of everyone I'd ever known, or seen, and a bunch my mind invented, and felt profound love for all of them, forgiveness for their faults. Jesus and Bhudda kept emerging from the sea of faces.
I felt unity with every human's struggles, their love, their flaws, their genius, their failures and successes.
It was like looking out through all the human eyes throughout history with immense loving kindness and empathy.
It obliterated my ability to feel angry at people. I can still get frustrated at situations other people are causing, but never angry at the person.
Before I'd even heard Sam Harris or Sopolsky talk about free will I had already begun to treat people as if they were not to blame for their own actions. The experience profoundly impacted the way that I view other people, and the way I treat them.
I didn't even have to take LSD to get there, it sort of just made sense as I grew older.
Not sure why an ape having a hallucination is profound. You have to be some kind of narcissist to believe you "feel" the suffering of the children screaming out for help as they starve to death all over the world.
Beautiful experience. May the auspicious happen
I'm jealous. Sounds like the most incredibly moving and profound experience.
@@ramudon2428 I'm sure I would have arrived at the same place either way, but definitely not when I was 20 years old.
I was quick to forgive peers, but never authority figures.
Diversifying the series I see 🙌🏼
It comes down to quality of conversation . These discussions, no matter what your views are , represent what podcasts, and social media were going to aspire to .
Instead for the most part it is the nutritional equivalent to junk food for the mind what is out there
These are the people I find interesting , great video
exactly! huge emphasis on NO MATTER WHAT YOUR VIEWS ARE. There is always something to take away and consider.
If the self is an illusion, what should I call the thing that has been successfully decieved?
The ego is a common term used
@@Jhawk_2k is the ego also an illusion? It seems to me eventually you hit something that is distinct and irreducable i.e. nonillusory.
@@dylancompton3107 yes, the ego is also considered an illusion. The ego is something we describe that is not permanent, something ever changing therefore illusory.
You're correct, there must be something that can be considered irreducible. Sam is attempting to point us to this very irreducible fact. Since words and thoughts are always changing it can't be them, which is why words can't ever describe this place.
It quickly becomes clear that something lies beyond thought, but we also intuit that there must be something finite to what we're looking for. Each of our tasks is to discover this for ourselves.
Pseudo-self
@@Jhawk_2k very interesting.
I'm personally very happy to see Alex grown up into such a grand intellectual having conversations with the best minds on his podcast. It's such a pleasure to listen
😂 Pretty sad, if Harris is one of the "best minds".
@@TheHuxleyAgnostic ok Harris is not Leonard Susskind or Joshua Bach but he's pretty incredible guy
There isn't just one layer of greatest minds. Sam Harris is definitely among the layers of great and so is Alex.
I'm really proud of what these guys are adding to our understanding.
Salute to them both...
@@TheHuxleyAgnostic can't argue with facts my guy 😂 I would like to see who you think has a great mind...Trump 😂😂😂😂😂
@@jgarciajr82 Dumpty is dumber than a stump, and the fact is that Sam is pretty close. You also don't seem very bright, with that massive swing and a miss.
self is not illusion but it essence of your being which reveal itself in decisions you made and your ego.
what is humanity if not struggle and conflict between reason and emotion, morality and desire.
every moment your are making decision between them. often you don't think before making decisions because your self choose something else over your reason and rationality.
idea of self is rooted in decision which you make.
Iv listened to Alex for years and I was looking forward to the day he gives Buddhist/non dualism philosophy a proper go. Good to see him not appear to be too resistant to these sort of concepts. All his arguments against the existence of god are based on countering the abrahamic religions. After a year of daily meditation I’m not sure he would hold the same views on the matter ☮️
I think or at least hope that Sam Harris could be a good doorway or bridge in that sense, just like Jordan Peterson is acting as a doorway or bridge into (orthodox) Christianity.
The wonderful thing about eastern traditions is that they implore direct engagement with their subject matter rather than leaving it up to ultimate subservience. This of course does not preclude some adherents to follow these traditions blindly nor mean that all followers of western traditions do not explore the implications in great detail, but that the difference in emphasis plays a huge role in how these traditions manifest. There's no one "Buddhism" or "Hinduism" because of how much these practices can vary person to person, let alone school to school. While it should, rightly be pointed out that western traditions have plenty of sub groups, the actual core way people practice their faiths is still quite similar overall.
In this clip, Harris, presents a wonderful and digestible explanation of anatman and why meditation can be helpful and also why it is so difficult. Even if one thinks of this is eastern mumbo jumbo in the end, I still challenge people to really think through the implications of anatman and why it might not be so bad. Much of western thought is still gated behind orientalism and that we are all better served to break down these barriers.
"Direct engagement" yet there's no self to do the "direct engagement"? Mkay
You can really see it all starting to click for Alex here. If somehow he is reading this, I hope you explore this more as many of us can attest that there is something very life changing on the other side.
What do you mean by "the other side"?
@@ZER0-- I’m mainly referring to the insights you gain when when you learn to meditate and examine the contents of consciousness. The difference between an examined life and an unexamined one really can feel like a total different side.
Following on from the knee pain example, it's no more mysterious that this pain needs to originate in some other part of your body and travel via a continuous nervous pathway across your leg and body to your head and brain in order to be felt as knee pain by "you", than it is for some thoughts to originate from some other person and be communicated across some air to your senses and brain in order to be thought by "you".
In the same way that neurons need to communicate to one another in order to complete a thought or feeling, with each neuron appearing distinct and separated like the bodies of different people, and with some firing one way and others another, people are equally just nodes in a grand "mind" that houses them all and allows them to connect up in just the same way. In that sense we are all one. Hallucinogens simply allow you to experience this more presently, presumably by breaking down the boundaries that narrow our minds to focus more acutely on just the most immediate things. That would be what the hippie stereotype of "open your mind" would be referring to. It alleviates the kind of fear that you only need for life-threatening situations.
When there is no reference point of permanence in objectivity that is constant, that gives meaning to lived experiences and life, then self is illusory and you are an illusion- > deceptivism.
It's so funny that Harris accepts basically the entirety of Humean skepticism except his morality.
What's a "Humean"?
A follower of David Hume's philosophy
Because he is a neocon
If the self is an illusion, then to whom does this illusion appear (and presumably) deceive?
Things do not appear to anything. There is just apprearence without a subject. Try and look for that which is observing stuff and see if you can find something which isn't a new appearance and the reciever of experiences. Subjects are a product of language. But just like we don't think objects have female/male essences like we see in certain languages we do project the structure of language onto experience when talking about subjects. And i know it feels this way, like the contrated feelings of the seeming first person body and thoughts rapidly following other thoughts about a person living a life. Or when you think you are conscious of something it's just a thought about a thought about a thought or different sense modalitie.
@@lucasheijdeman2581 If you don't realize that you've just strung together a series of self-contradictory assertions, there is no hope for a rational discourse.
Technically nobody. Once the illusion is thoroughly revealed, it's revealed that nobody was deceived. There was simply an appearance of deception
@@ZTAudioWhat is the contradiction? Please give me the formal inference structure. But even then contradictions seems perfectly fine to talk about concepts if you want them. Like i can stipulate concepts and rules for the usage of the concepts which are contradictory and you would perfectly know what i mean. For example: 1.All vultures are Wultures. 2. All Wultures are not black. 3. Delia is a black vulture. C. Delia is and is not a Wulture. You may want to say that you only adhere to classical logics and want to reframe contradictions like the liar paradox in different language (like partly or approximately, or in a certain sense.) But to say this is meaningless or non rational (as i assume you do) seems like a bias/failure of imagination on your part as three valence logics have turned out to be very useful in certain domains where classical logic turn out to be fruitless. What do you mean by rational here? It seems to me you are using to word to signify those things you don't like as you are unable to defeat the problem of the criterion. (You either assume/question beg for a certain proposition being rational/a correct instance of rationality without means of showing why that proposition as opposed to another account or you assume/beg the question for a methodology for sorting out rational from non rational propositions without first knowing what rational means in the first place so that you can differentiate the correct from the non correct method.) And because i aestheticly prefer that rationality can be reduced to consistency patterns in rule following and/or instrumentality towards goals in other cases depending on the social context i don't see how i am irrational as i seem to be forfilling my goal of replying to your vacous criticism without a problem.
The self being a useful construct does not make it an illusion. Going so far as to claim it literally doesn't exist as part of the mind results in statements that eat themselves. Like some of the other responses. It's odd to "me" that some feel the need to go this far when processing the idea that a fully concentrated essence doesn't exist.
self is an illusion and the self only lives for a fraction of a second. It’s incredible how the “self” is born but it doesn’t survive as long as you thought. this also seems in accordance with what Sam is saying
It's there every time you look for it. That's the opposite of illusion, that's Truth.
If the self is an illusion, then who is the illusion for?
Great conversation... yet the self is not identical to the ego. Even if the self is just a mental construction is absolutely necessary. I agree with the sense of freedom that gives pure consciousness, but that could be just a deeper level of the self.
Please help me understand! Still a question remains: Who is the subject that feels the tranquility/emptiness that is achieved after the self is removed?
Everyone else around you feels it, because you are no longer a problem child...❤
No… the self is a muscle contraction appearing in consciousness…
Peace is the result of this recognition that the self is an illusion…
long lasting peace is the result of discovering that consciousness is infinite…
No subject. There is seeing, but no seer; hearing, but no hearer; thinking, but no thinker.
@@maxk3062 but still there is somebody realizes “there is no thinker” and experiences the peace. Why would you pursue this peace if there is nobody feeling the peace?
@@ivangonzalez1954 who is experiencing the peace? Do you mean oneness with the universe when you said discovering consciousness is infinite?
Alex is the reason I am interested in Philosophy
It's a shame some people need an icon of some sort, whether it's a thing or person to get them interested in deeper concepts.
That's awesome, he has impacted my philosophical journey greatly as well
@@dxcSOUL Idk man, it's so great when someone can sort thoughts out for you and hold your hands until u can walk. It's more like an introductory guide than an idol
@@dxcSOULWhy is that a shame? The result is the same, more people interested. Which is a good thing.
@@dxcSOUL
He never said Alex is his icon, just the reason he is interested in philosophy.
They are analysing Advaita Vedanta philosophy in Hinduism.
For construction of thought building rememberbrane and fluency layerings, I would have hoped to have been built a linguistic ‘structure of routes’ of highly important words that denote certain meaning involved in following directions and purposes.
I think that’s a plan for improving cognition and understandings of complexities of equalial and equational thinking.
Only, I don’t have all words or any evidence that such a speed dialing could work.
“We are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively”. For me, Hicks summed it up with this.
Who is Hicks?
@@ZER0-- Bill Hicks
That’s completely wrong. Consciousness is literally just brain activity
@@hesqn77 People have been debating this for millennia, and science still doesn't have an empirically proven answer to the question. Yet you're here stating your assumption as if it's fact? Have I missed something? Has a scientific revolution somehow passed me by?
Bro stop teasing us with these bites off the full podcast
True. It could help someone but it's locked behind a paywall lol
You’d rather see none of it then? It’s 23 minutes, and you’re whining about being teased..
I think it will be uploaded to RUclips eventually, on Patreon it is a timed exclusive. Which is fair I reckon.
I suspect it's more a way to milk some extra views out of the conversations
Alex is my version of an Alpha. Knowledge is power. The way he carries himself and speaks I respect and take notes.
Interactions occurring. No moment ever the same. Interconnected. No separation. Patterns remain similars rippling.
A scientific examination of your own experience from the first-person perspective. These ideas are some of the most profound I've ever come across.
bro i did that when i was 19 with a bong in a shed on a bucket
U can’t have a scientific examination from a first person view because the view itself could be altered so u just can’t
its not a scientific examination if it comes from your personal experience, that's not how the scientific method works at all.
@@thevrb5298Name any type of experience that ISN'T "from a first person perspective".
@@joaocosta3506My point is that there's no such thing as experience which doesn't come from a first person perspective.
I wasn't talking about the scientific method.
However, I'll mention that Ken Wilbur used to talk about applying the scientific method to spirituality; and I'll post a link to an old video (it's very short) in which he expounds on the concept of it in another reply (to show that I know what you mean and agree, and I even have something interesting to show you about it).
I want to talk about the duality of Sam’s eyebrows
lol, the whole human eyebrows status and attraction thing cracks me up. humans are so silly.
@@uk7769 Eyebrow lifting = Ego
Sam Harris was in my brain taking notes while I was sorting stuff out.
Alex won't find a better mentor than Sam.
the thing is experiencing all these experiences sober is very difficult as it requires to dissolve the ego
Full video when? Eagerly waiting :)
Same bro, same
Usually released on Sundays
Its out now if you pay some money on his patreon
Alex is a snake....why would he release the full video......he's part of the problem and only want to tease you for more
Okay, Mr. Harris, I am going to listen. Despite any potential arguments I have concerning the self.
Two brilliant minds at their peak. 🇦🇺 😊
why do i feel like i'm listening to a younger and an older brother having a conversation...?
I’ve listened to Sam talk about this before and I still don’t understand what he’s talking about exactly. I don’t get what he means by “center of consciousness.” I’m not sure that I ever thought there was a center to my consciousness because I don’t even know what that means. Is Sam sure that everyone has this sense of ego he describes before having ego death? Because I kind of think I never had such an idea to begin with. I only have a sense of self to an extent that makes logical sense. For example, Ik that I am a person that exists and Ik that I can’t see what Sam is doing this exact moment because I’m not at the same spot as him, and Ik that I can’t see what’s behind me right now without turning my head because my eyes are on the front of my head and I need my eyes to see anything.
Do you feel like the author of your thoughts? Do you feel like an entity that can exert will?
@@motorhead48067 I think that my brain is the cause of my thoughts, so whether or not I am the author of my thoughts depends on whether or not I am my brain. And I know that I am an organism that can do things and I know that my judgment and reasoning can play a role in determining the things that I do. Is that what you mean when you ask if I feel like I am an entity that can exert will?
@@motorhead48067 I think that my brain is the cause of my thoughts. And I am an organism that can do things and I can plan out the things I do before I do those things. Is that what you mean when you ask if I feel like an entity that can exert will?
@@Homo_sAPEien You cn check the whole video for context.. as this is a clipping.. where he has covered it better
Alex asks a question about meditation.. that may answer your question
I suppose it could be possible for somebody to never develop ego. For most people it isn't clear what ego is until ego death happens the first time because it's the contrast between ego and no-ego that makes it clear, right?
When the complete conversation will be available in youtube ?
I get the sense that Sam Harris understands these concepts intellectually and not spiritually.
What's the difference?
It's good to see you moving towards spirituality based explorations over the logical fallacies and religious debates. It's better to learn the universal principles that religion has built dogma on top of than the religions themselves.
No religion is based on "universal principles" and neither is your new-age rubbish.
@@threestars2164 I disagree but I appreciate your opinion. Love and Light to you my friend!
I know a guy who took psychedelics in his early 20s. He experienced a profound glimpse of reality and then dedicated his life to understanding what the hell happened.
I meditated for 30 years then took LSD. For me it confirmed so much of what I have seen through meditation and other practices.
Either way, we both ended up pretty much in the same place.
My favorite explanation has been that psychadelics are a helicopter ride to the top of the mountain of enlightenment. They can show you the peak but that's never going to be like making the hike yourself.
Mindfulness and spirituality is a serious grappling with the emotional world of your existence, it's something you really can't logic yourself to the end of. If you put in the work though you will feel fulfillment and effortlessness in everything you do. I know that sounds spacy but it's the truth.
You ended up in your brain.
cspace1234nz could you elaborate? But my assumption is your talking about how we’re (I) am just one consciousness i am you just as much as you = i are me i am talking to myself just as much as you = i are talking to yourself = i everything and everyone are figments of my imagination just as much as everyone and everything are figments of your = I imagination. The singularity. But please do elaborate more of what you was talking about.
It's not real. Just your brain "seeing" things. It has very little bearing on your day to day reality. This is coming from a hardcore believer who had numerous "divine visions" since childhood through to early adulthood. It's a load of rollox 😁
@@robertdomergue1946 ….it’s really very simple when it comes down to it and there’s a great many saints sages and gurus have spoken way more eloquently than I ever could, but it’s about realising we are not who or what we think we are. It’s the realisation of our true nature, beyond the mind/ego.
I love how Sam chooses his words so carefully. I have this fantasy that one day he’ll go on a zen retreat or something similar and have satori (sudden enlightenment) and then come back and attempt to talk about it.
fascinating!
Alex is so cool he has trained himself to close and open his ears. F*cking legend.