It’s BS. Nat Turner and John Brown killed civilians in their uprisings but we understand that bc they were oppressed and enslaved. But when Palestinians do the same thing we call them monsters. You’re on the wrong side of history bub. You’d probably be cheering on the slave owners back then too. Gross
Clarity? He brought up the encroaching settlements, then didn't address them. He claimed the occupation ended in 2005, which it by no means did. He failed to acknowledge the blockade, or the raids, or the Isreali government's open incitement of discrimination. He acts as if the Isreali government hasn't been committing war crimes for 75 years. What is clear about this one sided mud slinging?
If Israel laid down their arms now what would happen? If Hamas, Iran, and all of the various Arab states that don’t recognize their legitimacy laid down their arms, what would happen? You know the answer.
@@maxmccann3030 The greater tragedy is the west bows down to both without firing a shot. Losing their societies while it's leaders only stand for Israel yet import Palestinians and other arabs.
Sam, we don’t have to go as far back as the atrocities of lynching of negroes. What about the US war crimes in : - Iraq - Afghanistan - Vietnam - Korea - 1954 Coup of Iran - Endless Coups of democratically elected governments and arming of right wing death squads Where does Sam get off pretending the US has acted with moral integrity. WTF. Of course what of the acts of Israel perpetrated on the Palestinians over the last 75 years, not to mention the Apartheid state of Israel today. Sam Harris has a very myopic version of History and Morality.
Sam never wants to acknowledge present Western monstrosities though. When western or Israeli forces kill innocent bystanders, he always dismisses it as "yeah, that was bad, but we had good intentions". It's so easy to sit in a safe American city and high- mindedly talk about intentions. When your family gets killed by accident, you don't care about the killers supposed morality.
All true, Sam Harris, but irrelevant. Netanyahu caused this conflict. He wanted it, he stirred up the Palestinians, and he got the response he wanted. Hamas are to be condemned for killing civilians, but that does not change the fact that Netanyahu made this happen: by shutting the Palestinian Authority out of negotiations he destroyed their standing and boosted Hamas. Then Netanyahu made life so difficult for Palestinians that it provoked a reaction and played into his hands. He was warned that Hamas were planning an attack and he did nothing about it. It's what he wanted.
@@paulr3002Netanyahu wanted this? Are you a mind reader? If not, keep your assumptions in check. In my oppinion he's using/abusing this siruation to boost his own polls and do his own war. Not unlike Bush after 9/11 and Irak. Big mess, lots of trouble, except the US can leave and Israel is stuck in it.
Sam no one said Gaza was under occupation! The occupation ended in 2006! But that is when the "blockade" of Gaza began! The Palestinians cannot even bring in cement or electronics and cannot leave Gaza! Why talk about matters you do not understand? A very simple question here is is Israel not occupying Palestinian land? Why is Israel allowed to do exactly that? And Russias occupation of Ukraine is a war crime in which you feel we need to actively fight against! Explain the hypocrisy
There is a blockade because Hamas didn't stop attacking civilians ever since, and no state will allow unstopping attacks to last forever. Palestinians are getting out of Gaza to work in Israel (before the war). How did Hamas built these tunnels and rockets? from baking powder and grass? where did they get the unending capacity to fire missiles since the war began? Where is the fuel of Shifa hospital and UNWRA? How can you call it a genocide when the population has doubled itself? You, sir, are one of the confused. plus, the fact that you think he doesn't understand, means that you have no idea what he has been doing for the last decades. To sum it up, stop copy pasting lies.
Germane, yes, but stuff like this has been going on since well before Voltaire's time. It is a wise philosophy and a wonderful quote, but it doesn't require any prescience.
"Israel remains a lonely outpost of civilised ethics in the absolute moral wasteland that is the Middle East." Meanwhile, last year, the UN condemned Israel more times than all other countries combined.
Yes, he completely lost me with this statement... Illegal settlements in the West Bank, killing of Palestinian teenagers for fun, yes, I'm sure that's civilised and ethical, Israel.
@@abluecassetteyou completely missed the point of this episode if you're comparing the morality of living in an illegal settlement (a land dispute) to the massacre of families in their homes. Also, when and where has the idf ever killed a teenager for fun? Did they post videos boasting about it, standing on a battered teenage body with thumbs up and smiling? Oh no wait, that was Hamas. Correct me if I'm wrong, send me some pics of the idf doing the same things we're seeing right now all over the internet posted by Hamas.
You're not convincing me on this moral equivalence thing. Justifying the killing of non-combatants is a slippery moral slope. The one thread that runs through so many moral commentators is my side bias, it's universal in human beings.
No one is suggesting that the deaths of non-combatants is a good thing, but it is a reality of war and war is hell. And just because war is hell doesn't mean it never needs to be fought.
not accurate if the presuppositions he makes that leads up to his opinions is flawed by either wilful ignorance or a quite specific lack of factual information in key points about the present and past leaing up to today's conflict, the reality is there a far more well versed people (no not ben shapiro, definitely not ben shapiro) we should be listening to on this topic, and as much as i love Sam and support him (shout out my fellow patreons) he is ignorant on this just like the rest of us, and he should have just stayed quiet. Sure everyone has the right to express their opinions but doesn't make it valid.
@@atisht.n.t.m4844 His entire thesis was not about the history of Israel/Palestine, territorial dispute ex, it was specifically the moral equivalence being drawn from deliberating killing citizens and using your own people as human shields and the collateral damage you get from war. That is something that can be addressed on its face without any “context” of the specific Israel/Palestine situation. Why dont you engage in that debate and tell me what you have issue with?
@@sideshowamit Thank you for summarizing the _actual point_ of the podcast. It seems to me that many of the comments under Sam Harris videos are made without having listened first.
As much as i like Sam Harris and his views about islam , i think his judgement on Israel -Palestine issue is blinded by his skepticism towards Islam. The Israel-Palestine issue is bigger than religion(yes religion is issue too) but the fact that Palestinians are stripped off from their motherland their home is a fact. Hamas indeed is a terroist organisation and its actions should be condemned but the underlying cause for the conflict should he addressed too.
Do you think the history of the conflict would be the same if the Palestinians had never supported Hamas, an organization that was founded to eliminate the Jews in the region?
@@Lord_Nordan They are, more appropriately were, on the land that Israel wants. Wait, and didn’t Netanyahu prop up Hamas to the detriment of more secular popularly elected governments in order to destabilize Palestine? Yeah I think so. Sam is blinded by his own prejudice on this one.
@@Lord_Nordan Because they've routinely attacked Israel and openly declared their intent for genocide of the Jewish race. Sam's on the nose though about the bullshittery of moral equivelancy. Comparing the aims of the groups, and the most recent events is like comparing the bombing of Dresden to the Holocaust. They're not even in the same sphere of morality. and ethics.
There are sadly too many assumptions and generalization in this argument made here. I am a former muslim myself and I come from the middle-east and I know what it is like to have been born there and to live under oppression and fear for so many years and how it influences morality. What Hamas did in this event was wrong and hideous in every way, true. But you assume that they forcefully take human shields and that the Palestinians don't have reasons to sympathize with them. You generalize and assume all these militant islamic groups are the same or hold the same cause and morals. Hamas was born out of the systematic chronic oppression and fear of the Palestinian people for decades by the Isrealis. A necessary evil. Survival instinct. To survive you might do the unthinkable. Hamas, is for some, the only thing that stands between them and eradication. Imagine a big bully with his gang behind him coming to your home because the goverment allowed them to move in without consulting you and told them to live there. punching you and your family for decades. You see your daughter die, your wife running away, etc... You sometimes catch a breath and punch back. Then the bully takes out the knife as an excuse. Then your big brother who is a physically less threatening bully defends you. Although you and your bro don't see eye to eye and he is scum of the earth, you will sympathize with him and protect him... because if not, you will die or lose more than you already lost and what little remains of your dwindling dignity and possessions. If your brother kills their families as revenge, you would struggle to condone his actions however wrong they may be. Morals can only be compared when you are under the same circumstances.
I was listening and thinking that the way he was framing most of his statements were not necessarily false. But they also left out so much. Israel doesn't have to use anyone as a human shield. It can be argued, I suppose, that no one ever does. But Israel has no motivation to do so. They're responding right now to a failure in their morally supported, high tech, rarely fails defense. There is such a power differential here. It reminds of the quote, paraphrased, that riots are the language of the oppressed. I'm not saying this about any one attack, let alone the obviously disgusting and horrible one on the 7th. I'm saying to imply that people have no reason to feel angry or desperate is intellectually dishonest.
I read many books of Sam Harris and he is normally well spoken. I logically agreed with him at first in this recording, but it didn't feel right because I know how the weak, oppressed, and desperate react first hand. It shows how drawing a frame for an argument and omitting important points to support your view is intentionally or not a misleading thing to do and can lead to an even opposing conclusion. A bias I however can understand coming from his background. The difference in power should be considered as you say, yes. The oppressed will react against the oppressors in what might be called immoral ways. Maybe they couldn't hurt the Isreali military so they went for civilians. I find it still morally wrong, unthinkable, and utterly inhumane. The end doesn't justify the means for me. But if one loses enough, one might just change their mind and use any and all means.
This is mere apologism. Sorry. Either the same moral principles apply in all situations and contexts or you are making excuses for one group out of partisanship and bias. Your exemption of Hamas and Palestinians from basic human decency and morality is the worst kind of exceptionslism I've ever seen in my lifetime. You're also clearly a victim of Palestinian propaganda. They are not nearly as "oppressed" as if often claimed. While Israel has made multiple mistakes, almost all the things which are claimed to be oppressive by Palestinians are either NOT at all - or the direct consequence of a full century of jew-hating violence and massacres. The security checkpoints came after numerous "martyr operations". The arrests of Palestinians came after terrorist groups came after suicide bombings. I could keep listing them and you'd see that in every case Israel has responded to try to protect themselves from REAL violence. As for the earlier years, at what point during the British mandate was it oppressive for Jewish refugees to buy land to farm from Arabs? At what point was it justified to slaughter Jews in the dozens for building ho'nes? Retaliation only began after massacres by Arab mobs became a trend. And then when homeless Holocaust survivors arrived after WWiI - a war in which a Mufti made a pact with Hitler to "remove all Jews" - how could anyone morally justify the response to war refugees which the Arab world gave them : to try to eliminate Israel entirely. Your perspective as an Arab is valuable only insofar as you have actually evaluated how deeply biased your perceptions are.
I have listened to you for years. I find it incredible that you have the strength to speak your wonderfully rational mind despite all the hatred you receive. You are an inspiration. I would love to hear a podcast on how you deal with it. I am in a situation where I'm hated by someone and I find it mentally damaging. I wish I had your ability to deal with it.
Harris is just a purely irrational tribalist who is clever enough to convince many that he is a rationalist. He said he didn't care if Hunter Biden had "corpses of children in his basement"--he wanted a media coverup to defeat Trump--whom he labeled "worse than Osama bin Laden." Obviously, he cares in this instance only about Jewish children, not at all about Muslim children. He is not an American, he is a tribal Jew.
Thank you, Sunshine, you put that absolutely superbly! I, likewise, find the intellectual stamina and personal courage of people such as the remarkable Sam Harris or the late Christopher Hitchens (I miss him so much!) utterly uplifting and inspiring.
@@bertputtocks903 I completely agree. Hitchens was amazing. Thank goodness RUclips has plenty of clips to revisit. Another favourite of mine is in the RUclips world is "Love letters to Dawkins" Have a lovely day.
I was thinking the same thing, it's incredible Sam has managed to remain so level headed through the past few years. I'd love to know how he keeps it together. I know he deleted his bird app account, maybe he just knows his limits and when to step away.
To this day I find it maddeningly frustrating that so many people lose their mind if one tries to explain that: A) If two controversies exist, that doesn't mean you can automatically play false equivalency with them; B) If we say one controversy is worse than the other, it doesn't mean we're saying the other is a non-controversy. So many people can't seem to realize there is a wide space between playing (false) equivalency, and a zero sum game morality. Elementary critical thought and basic morality seem to be in extreme scarcity.
Because 'zero-sum-game' morality makes things look not too good for them when you start actually counting the scores, it's much easier to just cherrypick, gaslight, strawman, and insist that any crime is "okay as long as we're the ones doing it"
I will grant Sam any day of the week that MOST of his argument is valid, but the small part where he is TOTALLY 100% WRONG needs saying. Claiming cultural superiority is the most dangerous of all human traits because at its most basic it decides the fate of people by their birth. Its the very basis for for so many of histories ugliest moments. Every cultural and tribal and nation group has its fanatics and every so often that group takes control. That usually happens when a society is under stress. We are seeing that in America right now, where there is staggering economic stress over a massive section of the population. Its what's allowed Trump to grasp the power base that he has. The stress that Israel has applied to the Palestinian people for such a long time now has lead many young Palestinians right into the arms of Hamas. Just like the stress on many young Germans in the 1930s lead them into the arms of the Nazis. The other thing is that such fanatics will mistreat their own people with MORE violence and cruelty than they treat others. In Germany people who they felt were unworthy of being shot were guillotined like Sophie Scholl whose crime was distributing anti-Nazi Pamphlets at the University of Munich. A few weeks back Vice News did a story titled _"Israel’s Far Right Government is a Gift to Settlers"_ in that story a young settler who has been REMOVED from land he has claimed on multiple occasions by ISRAELI authorities. They have told him repeatedly that this patch of land is NOT HIS to take. In the interview in one breath he's claiming that he's peaceful and he says "I'm a Jew talking to a non-Jew peacefully" In the next breath he basically says that anyone who doesn't agree with what he wants should have their heads cut off. Whenever you ignore the fanatics among any group they will fester and wait for an opportunity to grasp power. Right now Sam should have a look over his shoulder at the Libertarians in America. They've been waiting decades to grasp power and Trump opened the door for them BECAUSE the lazy establishments of both the DNC and RNC left a massive slab of the American population vulnerable to a morally bankrupt person like Trump. The lesson is: NEVER ignore the fanatic in your own culture or one day they will rip your people apart when you least expect it.
The part about cultural superiority in Sam's video is fucking appalling. I bet that's what Americans, British, French, Israelis, and Germans told themselves before each invasion (All but America successfully/unsuccessfully invaded my home country). Well done Sam! That's the first video of him I watch and will be the last.
One of the problems here is that morality is becoming kind of a flawed lens to view this conflict through. Until material conditions change significantly all this moralizing lets you be on the side of modern, civilized society but does nothing to address the actual mechanisms shaping people's very minds. Societies living under extreme stress tend to produce morally worse individuals. Many of these individuals may lean towards barbarism, like placing such a low value on the lives of their neighbors' children that they would use them as human shields. Ok, they are worse people than the Israelis that don't do this. But Palestinians practically live in a different century than the Israelis and have been swimming in these waters since birth. Proclaiming moral high ground achieves nothing and draws attention away from the fact that Israel has many more levers of control over the material situation than some destitute mobs raging in the bombed out streets of an open air prison. And holy shit, there's something very chilling about the phrase "collateral damage" at this point in history. Of course inadvertent civilian casualties are different from abduction and cold-blooded murder of children, but I fear this euphemistic passivity belies a quiet horror that modern civilized Westerners repeatedly just sweep under the rug when there are displays of anachronistic savagery to be viscerally appalled by. All of this is nihilism-inducing. Hamas are monsters, people supporting them are not far behind, Israel is justified in harsh retaliation... yet, standing around on the moral high ground seems to only distance us from any actual progress.
Literally wrong. There are countries, cultures, peoples that have suffered much worse conditions than the Palestinians, but who have yet NOT became this barbaric in enacting their resistance. If anything, Hamas (as an expression of Palestinian resistance) is an anomaly. Even Nazi concentration camp prisoners, who were literally beaten, starved, saw all their loved ones be industrially murdered, were more humane than Hamas - and its many cheerleaders around the world.
Missing from the analysis is some thought as to asymmetry of power. When the US engaged in war in Iraq it promised 'shock and awe' and when any modern advanced military sabre rattles they threaten total destruction with advanced weapons. But lesser armies can not bring shock and awe by technological means, they reign what terror they can with small arms and ammunitions but the effect is similar, with many innocent people becoming victims. Think back to when governments and the rule of law were in their early days. The State would chop off the hands off of those who stole bread. As surveillance and policing became more effective, harsh punishments were no longer necessary because the power of the state became unquestionable. The severity of punishment did not decrease on moral grounds, but because it was no longer necessary to strike fear in the population to get them to obey the law. Most people understood the power of the law was virtually absolute. Likewise I'm not convinced so called advanced civilizations and their militaries are more moral as such but rather their power has become so absolute that they have changed tactics. When that power is challenged watch the morality slip away....
Sam, you have taken every thought and opinion I have on this conflict, HERE AND NOW, not in the past, not in the future. However right here and now in the present time and eloquently and calmly expressed them in a way I never could. Bravo my friend.
I can't believe someone who is considered an 'intellectual' could be so willfully ignorant on a subject and seek to cherry pick information to fit a biased narrative he has constructed in his head. As an example he states (while discussing human shields), "But pay attention, I'm describing concrete behaviors, behaviors that occur on only one side of this conflict". Apparently, research isn't a skill developed among the dark web intellectuals given it takes a few seconds of research to find reports published by Israeli human rights organizations exposing a list of incidents in which the IDF violated a High Court of Justice injunction by using Palestinians as human shields (as part of the "neighbor procedure") which includes IDF soldiers using Palestinian civilians in the action that led to the killing of Iyad Sawalha in Jenin on 9 Nov. 2002. His intellectually bankrupt statement also ignores the fact that Israel located many of the defense institutions in residential areas. I am lost on how Israel placing military operations in residential areas is morally different than what Hamas is accused of. And if we are talking about moral equivalence, wouldn't a state be held to a higher standard than a designated a terrorist group? Continuing on moral equivalence, what does it say about a state that would create, strengthen and fund a terrorist group (to achieve political objectives), which Israel has done in the case of Hamas? Should there not be more accountability placed on the Israeli political establishment than Palestinian society? Additionally, Palestinians didn't use taxpayer funds to create an Israeli terrorist group to counter secularists and leftists within Israeli society. Pay attention, I'm describing concrete behaviors, behaviors that try to wash away the sins of one group due to inherent biases.
Yup. I listened to this in disbelief. I was one of those who used to roll my eyes when Israel was described as an Apartheid state, but the older I get and the more I read about the conflict the more convinced I am that there is no solution except for very large concessions by the Israeli government. The UN still considers the Gaza strip to be under ockupation, btw.
"Apparently, research isn't a skill developed among the dark web intellectuals given it takes a few seconds of research to find reports published by Israeli human rights organizations exposing a list of incidents in which the IDF violated a High Court of Justice injunction by using Palestinians as human shields (as part of the "neighbor procedure") which includes IDF soldiers using Palestinian civilians in the action that led to the killing of Iyad Sawalha in Jenin on 9 Nov. 2002." This isn't a response to what Sam said. This actually supports Sam's point, particularly if you manage a bit more research. First, imagine a Palestinian human rights organization within Gaza publishing reports of Hamas using Israelis as human shields. If you managed that, now imagine Hamas prosecuting its fighters for using Israelis as human shields. The reason I'm asking you to do this is because it's worth noting that the existence of groups within Israel that attempt to hold the IDF accountable matters, and the fact that the IDF prosecuted some of its own soldiers for the "neighbor procedure" matters (this is where the "a bit more research" comes in). "I am lost on how Israel placing military operations in residential areas is morally different than what Hamas is accused of." You should not be. There is a sliding scale here, but there is a difference between having a military base in a residential area, and running an armed resistance out of a residential apartment building. Does the IDF intentionally put its bases in places that would maximize civilian casualties if they were attacked? No. Does Hamas intentionally put its bases in places that would maximize civilian casualties if they were attacked? Yes. "wouldn't a state be held to a higher standard than a designated a terrorist group?" No. Especially not when that terrorist group is the de-facto government of 2.3M people (this responsibility is by the way why some countries haven't designated Hamas as a terrorist group). This is substantially larger than some countries. "Should there not be more accountability placed on the Israeli political establishment than Palestinian society?" There should be consequences for Likud's and Netanyahu's despicable support of Hamas while undermining Palestinian moderates. Unsure what is meant by "more accountability", but I am optimistic that Netanyahu's cynical strategy toward Palestinians will be forever shut down. A 2-state solution is the only possible solution, Netanyahu should be removed from power and held responsible, the occupation of the West Bank should end, no to settlements, aid routes to Gaza should be opened, AND... there is no moral equivalence between the IDF and Hamas. Can we manage all of this, as a society, or at long last is it just too hard?
I agree with Sam on the erroneous claim of a moral equivalence between the intentions of the Israeli's as a whole and its enemies during war time, but the claim that war crimes are the exception to the rule on the side of the IDF isn't entirely accurate either - the higher death count by collateral damage is not the only means of punishment the IDF seeks out, they also restrict the supply of food and water, regularly shut off the power grid and starve millions at a time. These are war crimes. What do these tactics have to do with collateral damage? Sam is lucid in his thinking and explanations of the asymmetry between the intentions of Jihadi's and the Israelis, but when he glosses over the notion that controlling airspace, maritime and resources into Palestine is still deemed as an occupation, by both the UN and U.S. State Department, one can't help but notice the blind spots into Sam's analysis. The absence of a physical presence doesn't diminish the control of the area in the same egregious fashion as being there on ground.
The power grid was shut down because the Hamas buys fuel via the Palestinian Authority and refuses to pay for it. Also, the Palestinians are not under any circumstances "starved", there is no shortage of food in Gaza or the West Bank. The rates of obesity in Palestinian society are skyrocketing. You're simply making it up. No one disputes that Israel is blockading the Gaza strip and preventing supplies of commodities from entering. When you are at war with a belligerent enemy, you have the legal right to prevent weapons and supplies from reaching their armed forces, which is established in the laws of war for centuries. In 2011, the UN Palmer Committee ruled that the blockade of the Gaza strip was 100% legal, it's not under any circumstances a "war crime". If you pick and choose only the facts that suit your narrative, you won't be able to help find a solution to the world's problems.
@@HeadofIbis1st claim addressed: The power grid in Gaza was shut down due to a fuel shortage, which was a result of the Israeli blockade on the Gaza Strip. Amnesty International has called for Israel to lift its "illegal and inhumane" blockade and restore Gaza's electricity supply. There is zero evidence of it not being paid for. 2nd claim addressed: The Israeli blockade has had a significant impact on the availability and affordability of food and other essential goods. Amnesty International has described the blockade as a form of collective punishment that "disproportionately harms Palestinian civilians. 3rd claim addressed: While the UN Palmer Committee concluded that the blockade had a legal basis, a panel of five independent UN rights experts rejected this conclusion, stating that the blockade violated international human rights and humanitarian law. Anything else?
Israel doesn’t have to use their own people as human shields. They have military backup from the US. Using your own people as shields is a strategy born of despair.
You've missed the point entirely that using non-combatants as sheilds wouldn't work for Israel, no matter how desperate they became, because Hamas and other Islamic terrorist organizations would view it as a two-birds-one-stone situation, gladly killing the shield and the soldier; whereas Israel is actually deterred by it because they don't want to kill Palestinian non-combatants. That moral difference is the heart of this entire episode... I'm not sure how you missed it.
The point is that Israel will never use its people as human shields. It is a strategy born of a loss of humanity, and a love of death instead of life. Hamas celebrates civilian martyrdom. They do not avoid it. Sam's point is that Israel does not think this way, and therefore Hamas exploits that weakness.
@@HTtwentyten Gee I wonder what could be the reason for someone to lose humanity and embrace death ... you're pretty close to a lightbulb moment, my dude.
You're irresponsibly ignorant about the ideology that gets pumped into these movements. You expect them to think like you, to behave like you would. They do not.@@Heldarion
Israel "routinely" gives Palestinian civilians ten minute warnings before they flatten entire neighborhoods from the air to punish one or two militants (if there are any there at all), and this is what Sam calls "civilized"??
Sam's moral landscape is looking quite pockmarked with bomb craters. His argument is simply the well dressed, well educated, well presented argument is nicer. The barbarian on the other hand, who does not bother with facade, is uglier. The nicer the prison is the open air one.
Let's have Sam and Ben Affleck rekindle their debate on the upcoming anniversary of their infamous showdown on Real Time. I can't wait for Ben to explain to us how Hamas just want go about their day and "eat sandwiches".
Can't wait to hear how Israel is just acting in self defense when they commit genocide. And how when they will have killed everyone in Gaza it was just morally reasonable genocidal self defense.
Sam, according to international law Israel continued to occupy Gaza by way of its control of access by land, sea and air. It suited Israel to claim that the de facto open was no longer occupied. The fact that Israel has been able to put Gaza under siege immediately is evidence that it continued to occupy Gaza.
One side actively avoids targeting civilians while the other puts their own children in the way of bullets to make it appear as thou Israel is targeting children. One side is ashamed of killing civilians while the other live streams it. The fact that Israel even lets Gaza exist while the Palestinians don’t recognize Israel’s right to exist and Israel actually let’s them live is a miracle! The sooner Gaza is razed and rebuild by Jews the better! What have the Palestinian contributed to humanity? Welfare cases that make bombs from all the aid money..no more aid money😂🖕🏼
Man your analysis is somehow so convincing yet so incorrect. Its disturbing that so many people will listen to this and think that it is as black and white as you make it sound
This argument would make sense if not for the fact that The purpose of Hama's is to lend Justification to Netanyahu's ultra Right Wing Racist policies, which in turn justifies Hamas. Each completes the other. Didn't Netanyahu use his people for political expediency? - Egypt intelligence official says Israel ignored repeated warnings I think if you look at what's happening the actions of both Hama's and the Israeli government work counter to the interests of both the Palestinian and Israeli people. So the question is why does it keep happening? The answer may be that these actions work well for the self perpetuation of the two entities. The answer definitely isn't Islamic extremism.
Not to mention a former Israeli intelligence chief admitted that they helped create Hamas. They funded Hamas to weaken the PLO, which was far more secular. But I don't think Sam is that interested in bits of history that fall outside his argument
If Israel had only a few thousand fighters and only assault rifles for weaponry, and palestine was a nuclear power with fighter jets, tanks, bombers and able to call up a military of over 300,000 men, then I have no doubt that Israel would use their own people as human shields. It is the ridiculous imbalance of power that makes desperate people do desperate and horrible things.
@@squatch545 The very fact that Hamas knew ahead of their assault that Israel would have to respond by bombarding Gaza with all its civilians having no where to go, *IS* EXACTLY the use of civilians as human shields. No meme about it.
@@wasneeplusI’m loving life with zero jabs, great health, and no potential timebomb ticking inside me. But you keep taking your medical advice from CNN and its bigharma owners. Good luck “following the $cience.”
nobody is the preeminent voice of reason, im sure youre saying this more for praise then for accuracy, but i think he's being quite reasonable with inaccurate information
except this is completely insane. Israel is about to commit ethnic cleanising. on 1million people. How they can order the population of a place Sam says they don't controll out, is a mystery.
Nothing but sheer platitudes! .. if Hamas were embedded in the Israeli civilians would you have seen the same level of carnage taking place in Gaza right now? .. maybe you are right! There is no moral equivalence .. and just like everything it depends on which side you are standing on. You don't have any kind of moral high ground here.
You can't buffer your bigotry and Islamophobia by creating a moral ambiguity. Essentially, you are like everyone else: you chose a point where you wanted history to start (2006), build on your own narrative, which is nothing but a confirmation bias.
I came back one more time .. if you think there is any morality in occupation and genocide then you are in no position to lecture anybody about what's right and what's wrong
Thank you @samharris for so clearly helping think through these horrible events and putting them in context. It’s an amazing gift that you share and it brings a lot of light and positivity to the world.
You have left some very important facts out like: siege of Gaza( concentration camp), Isrels Zionistic expansion over Palestinian territory against Internatioanl Law and cleansing of that territory, regular attacs on Palestinians by ILLEGAL settlers, Israels refusal for two-state solution... Still what Hamas did is a terrorist attack and it should be unequivocally condemed and we shoud unequivocally condemn Israel's occupation of Palestinian land and apartheid commited against Palestinians.
It's worse than that. The propaganda and disinformation war is particularly unbalanced and there are many well-meaning people with a broken moral compass who a lol low themselves to be manipulated by that propaganda. Remember the charity television advertisements that user you cloy at your heartstrings by showing you horrifically pitiful images of "children starving in Africa?". That was for a good cause, but it was sensationalist propaganda. Now combine that with a bewildering web of lies and exaggeration and show it to people with a broken 'moral compass, as you say. That's where the Palestinian cause and it's Tehran puppeteers have come to.
Sam is a very reasonable person, in general. his political statements, however, are very naive. What he calls here "Israel has a more civilized moral code" could be easily translated as "Israel has one of the most powerful armies in the world". why take human shields if you have a real anti-bomb shield, right? And bombs. and planes. And power. And allies. Anyway. It's a shame because other than politics, Sam seems to be right about almost everything and he is clearly a positive force in the universe.
@@360tailslidfaceplant my feeling is that Sam and other people from rich countries tend to disconsider the difference between an academical debate and a debate/clash that evolves life and death situations. it's hard to be "civilized" when you are treated like an animal. The key is the material conditions, mainly, not the ideas as isolated elements. Sam, aparently, doesn't understand this.
The fact that Israel has a powerful army actually REINFORCES the point that they have a more evolved ethic, because if they wanted, every Palestinian would be dead now. In contrast, if Hamas had the same power, all Jews in Israel WOULD in fact be dead. Sam has made this exact point. It's also inconceivable to me that if Israel didn't have a powerful army, that would necessarily mean they needed to resort to attacking from behind their innocent women and children... unfortunately this is the kind of apologism that tries to justify Islamist terrorism that is often made.
It’s what we already know, feel deeply in our bones. Sam might, more often than not, be preaching to the choir; but while we can hum the tune, he knows the lyrics; indeed, has written them with perfect eloquence.
Ah, yes, the eloquence of the fanatic: He said he didn't care if Hunter Biden had "corpses of children in his basement"--he wanted a media coverup to defeat Trump
The choir is getting bigger. I am from Germany and have been following Sam's work since many years. I have often shared his online content and recommended or gifted his books. A frequent response: "Finally, some common sense". I wish more was translated into more languages. Just a few years ago no one had ever heard of him. This has definitely changed. Also, it is not only about the size of the choir, but the people in it. I think a lot of people in positions of influence pay attention to him and there is a snowball effect that you would not be able to measure based on clicks or subscription numbers alone. I find the choir analogy funny in this case. After all, it is a choir that values free and independent thinking. Maybe think of a Jazz jam session with some singing rather than a church choir.
an extremely one-sided approach to this... there is no moral right in war to begin with, and also this war DID NOT in fact start now... People go on and on about Hamas as if that justifies anything Israel does to Palestinians... well, guess what the West Bank exists without Hamas, but they're killed just and persecuted just as much! Also, a genocide takes many forms and controlling the natural resources that would allow basic human decency and livable conditions is certainly another form... Albeit, quieter so the world would judge it less. I AM NOT pro-Hamas and would never be, but I'd never support the Israeli Zionist government either. It's just crazy that British, US, German nationals... have birthright(?!) trips and Palestinians cannot be free on the land they were born. So yes, more than enough research has shown that more violence and suppression gives way to more crimes... Maybe a couple of megalomaniacs started Hamas, but its core body, those simple men that enlist are mostly regular people and WE HAVE TO wonder what they lost in their lives in order to do these acts. Sth similar should be asked about all those israeli soldiers and policemen who dehumanize and kill Palestinians on a regular basis as well though.
Does Islam "inspire more violence" than Christianity, or capitalism? Sam, a country can not maintain an apartheid system for decades and not expect that it will always go smoothly. Israel has made that choice for decades and they've vilified and demonized anyone that tried to persuade them otherwise. Can you argue with any of that? With that in mind, consider a nation that does maintain an apartheid for decades, yet expects to be able to have things like "music festivals", and still expects such things to always go smoothly. Now consider that our own nation, the USA, supported this apartheid system all this time. 9/11 didn't teach us anything. Things do not always go the way you want. If you abuse someone long enough, they may strike back. It's just that simple. I do not expect the Palestinians to survive this. None of them. This action of theirs has a sense of finality around it. I doubt that even THEY expect to survive this. After decades of being shut out of the process, by nations that claim to be democratic, maybe they felt that they had no choice. Maybe they felt that it would be better to die, as long as dying meant that they could take some portion of their enemies with them. I see your attempt to frame people who disagree with you as false equivalency, but your theoretical situation at 10:27 is also a false equivalency. Israel would never have to use their own people as human shields. They are far more powerful and they have powerful allies. As far as your notion that the Israeli government does not want to massacre the Palestinians, I would suggest that you haven't been paying attention. Netanyahu has just been impatiently waiting for an excuse, because the collective Israeli wish that the Palestinians would just starve to death already has been a real drag for him.
When it comes to this topic Sam is as dense as Osmium. When he talks about ethics he stops short of discussing the history of the conflict and of the occupation. Him talking about war crimes on the Israeli side being an exception rather than the rule is laughable nonsense!
"The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] *but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence.* Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do." -- Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
@@ovariantrolley2327 All it ever had was divide and rule. There is a little imperialust hiding behind every chest-thumping superiority-oozing comment. Reply...
In each location that Western Nations went people flocked. Native people flocked to the trading posts that the British set up in India and in Africa. They brought medicine, mechanical technology, modern knowledge of math and science, enlightened ideas of human value, and ultimately were the root from which the abolition of slavery stemmed. The European spread across the world was a spectacular advance for indigenous people. The life expectancy of indigenous people went up, maternal and infant mortality went down, people who were oppressed by violent warlords were able to economically engage and education began to flourish. To further prove the point, after the withdrawal of Europe, colonial Powers from Africa Aunt South Asia, were people from Europe trying to go to South Asia More for people from South Asia and Africa trying to go to Europe? Europe is filled with the people from its former colonies because the former colonies were such spectacular places to live compared with uncolonized places. This used to be common knowledge but has been erased by modern Marxism.
I like how having border check points on a border that isn't legally a border and a blockade on a place that isnt legally considered another country isn't occupation.
It literally isn't. Occupying something means actually being there. You can argue that it's bad, but at least know what words mean before you use them.
Two points to clarify: there is reputable evidence that the IDF does target civilians and that the IDF has at times used human shield. I agree Hamas is worse. But I don’t think the IDF takes as great care to save innocent lives as Sam seems to think here.
Where are you getting this "reputable evidence" in the middle of an ongoing war. Do you work within the Israeli intelligence services? Funny, my work as a historian has always shown me that such information is simply not available during wartime. We always have to go digging it up to correct the narratives of events once wars are over. And yet you have better information already. We should definitely make you chair of a research department right away with these impressive skills of discovery
The asymmetry we see in tactics is due to an asymmetry of power. Using your own people as human shields is reprehensible, and what Hamas has done cannot be rationally defended. But it can be put into context. This kind of tactic is one that is used by those who have far less power than their opposition. They're actually hoping for an overreaction from the opposition, so that the overreaction can be used as evidence that their opposition is humane. What they are doing is at least as much about guerrilla warfare as it is about jihad. The Israeli government has issued a warning to the Palestinians in Gaza with an evacuation order where about a million people are supposed to evacuate in 24 hrs. I don't think this is a reasonable order, and think it's likely that the only reason such warnings are given is that the rest of the world is watching. If Israel were not an apartheid state that heavily persecutes the Palestinians, Hamas would probably have little support from the broader Palestinian community. I think as it is, they only have about 30% support, though I haven't checked into that figure. Desperate people do desperate things. I certainly wouldn't say religion has nothing to do with what's going on there, but it's not the base issue here. Let's not broad brush the Palestinians. And, of course, folks shouldn't broad brush the Israelis either. There's a spectrum of folks in Israel ranging from those who want to absolutely exterminate all Palestinians to those who understand that the persecution of Palestinians needs to stop. Yes, intentions matter. I strongly doubt most Palestinians intended for this to happen. I also suspect Israeli forces won't be so careful about minimizing collateral damage. Let's not try to dumb down what's going on there.
@@anjofa7 I certainly don't think ALL Palestinians would wipe out ALL of Israel, and I doubt most would. There was a time before the establishment of the modern State of Israel where Palestians and Jews co-existed well enough. And as far as Palestinians today who would want to eliminate Israel, some of that is going to be a reaction to how they've been treated to Israel in a way similar to how black racism against whites is often a reaction of the racism they've experienced from whites. I think there's also different meanings to the idea of wiping out the Israeli state. Many folks, including Palestinians believe that that region should not have a state named Israel where non-jews are second class citizens at most. They might be ok with a state named in a matter that doesn't favor Jewish folks and that represents Jews, Arabs, etc equally. Of course, I'm quite sure you can find Palestinians who would be happy to exterminate all Jews. But keep in mind that this is a complex continuum. Let's not try to dumb this down, so that we can make easy but simplistically inaccurate judgments about who the good guys and bad guys are.
“Desperate people do desperate things” Maybe, but not like this (necessarily). The Kurds experienced everything the Palestinians have - and far far worse - the Kurds have committed acts of terrorism, but never like this and, more critically, never with such joy. The Kurds don’t celebrate the deaths of Turks or Iraqi Arabs with joy and fireworks and sweets. The Irish were under brutal occupation for 800 years! The Irish of course committed terrorism, but it’s main focus was always military - and even then - Irish people didn’t dance in the streets of Dublin and Cork. One of the worst terror attacks of the Troubles, the Le Mons restaurant bombing, the very next day, the IRA apologized for it and said they never intended to kill and harm that many civilians. The worst excesses of Irish terrorism caused a loss in popular support among the Irish populace, not celebrations. During apartheid-era S. Africa, the ANC famously avoided terrorism against white south africans, the ANC made a deliberate decision not to kill white south African civilians. Implicit in your statement is that if any of us faced the hardship and oppression the Palestinians have faced, we would or could act the same. But I cannot imagine ever murdering a baby, or being happy a baby was killed, I could never imagine bludgeoning a wounded farm worker to death with a hoe or be happy upon seeing the deed done. We have too many examples of oppressed peoples not succumbing to this level of barbarity. In 1929 there were Palestinian riots which were eerily similar to the current Gaza war, with Jewish infants and toddlers being butchered, women raped, men castrated & killed, etc. This was long before apartheid or mass dispossession and certainly long before Gaza was made an “open air prison” for nearly 2 decades. So why was the brutality exactly the same? I understand by 1929 there was already a Zionist movement and Arabs feared the loss of Palestine and that would explain the nationalist fervor. However, if the level of brutality we have seen over the past few days is a product of 75 or 50 years of constant and systemic repression, shouldn’t what occurred before all that been less barbarous?
He didn't single Islam out specifically, to prove this particular point. He's simply stating that moral progress happens, and needs to be protected from people who are pathologically confused.
Sam Harris has argued that feeling anger or seeking revenge against a murderer is as pointless as harbouring those same feelings toward a bear or a hurricane that has killed a loved one, since in his view, all are simply acting according to their nature and circumstances beyond their control. This suggests a philosophy of detachment from retributive emotions and actions. However, he appears to hold a contrasting view when it comes to Israel's right to wipe out Hamas terrorists, even when such actions have resulted in the deaths of thousands of children as collateral damage. I find it challenging to reconcile these two positions, where he discourages personal vengeance yet appears to justify large-scale retaliation.
You don’t have to hate someone or something to realize it’s destructive path. I would not feel hate towards a murderer, but I would still feel deeply that society should be protected from him.
Here he goes again, didn’t he try this with Noam Chomsky. At what Point did Israel take the high moral ground : - was it when they perpetuated the first Nakba in 1947/48 - when they took illegal control of the West Bank and Gaza Strip - when The UN and other humanitarian groups proclaimed Israel an Apartheid state - they’re policies have contributed to over 90% of the casualties between Israel and Palestine, arePalestinian . Et, etc, Sam argues in a vacuum and becomes completelyAhistorical in regards to this Middle East crisis that has played out over 75 years. How can anyone attempt to prioritise the death of innocent children of Israel as barbaric, and diminish the deaths of innocent Palestinians as collateral damage. They are both morally equivalent and repugnant. Sam has the luxury of living in the US where the depravities of the US, throughout the rest of the world since 1945, are somehow forgiven and largely forgotten. The US has no moral high ground, their war crimes were shown by Assange, now he rots in a prison. Sam lives under the protection of an Empire that never has to pay for its crimes of humanity, and somehow he takes the moral high ground. 🧐😬🤢🤮
First Nakba, second Nakba. BS. If you guys didn’t attack Israel the very first day of partition trying to throw Israel to the sea nothing would happen. It matters who attacks first. Hitler’s Germany attacked Stalin’s USSR. Both were terrible totalitarian states. But Germany got all the blame because it attacked first. Now. Throw out of your hearts the idea to drive Israel to the sea. No matter what Quran or Hadith says. these are just old books not to be taken seriously.
Thank you from Karmiel in the Galilee. We are so used to initial support for defending ourselves that lasts for a day or two and then it all evaporates after a couple of days, or perhaps a couple of weeks. However, this time, the outrage, hurt, and sheer numbers of the dead and how they died is so great, I don’t think we can afford to stop until Hamas is dismantled. And if the general assembly of the UN, & the security council (including Russia), the useful idiots in the EU, and the rest condemn us, so be it. But it would be nice for a change if at least part of the Western world had a smidgeon of the integrity of my grandfather’s generation who understood evil when they saw it and fought it in WWII.
I know right just like UA blew up their own POWs lol so many m0r0ns so little time. But hey yeah HAMAS apologists "you leave the bombing of hospitals and random innocent civilians to us!!!"
Its quite clearly not black vs white. It's dark gray vs a slightly lighter shade of gray. No one is coming out of this looking like moral superstars but there's significant daylight between the intentions of Hamas and the depths of depravity they are willing to go vs Israel. I think it's quite possible to not like either side here and still recognize that they're playing on different fields and by different rule books.
@@willr8768 I have no dog in this fight and could not care less who "wins." That said, it's easy to paint yourself as the morally superior when technology is on your side. The way Hamas produces casualties is the ONLY way they can produce these casualties because they are so outgunned by the other side. One side of this conflict has homemade rockets that are little more than fireworks along with small arms while the other side has fighter and bomber jets, tanks, drones and other military hardware provided free of charge by the US. It's easy to paint the little guy as moral monsters because they have such a graphic way of producing the very same results as the other side. Take a look at the footage coming out of Gaza. Those people are just as injured and just as dead and just as much civilians.
You're right, it's hard to imagine the Israeli's making themselves available as human shields because they have not been an occupied people living in horrid conditions. I know you pretend occupation of Gaza ended in 2005, but the UN and many humanitarian orgs don't agree because of the severe blockades that Israel imposes. Try imagining living in one of the most densely populated places on earth (~21,000 people per square mile), 45%+ unemployment, and most all of your resources controlled by your "non-occupier". What might you stoop to when there is nothing to loose?
who is more cowardly? the weaker team that uses girillia and terror warfare or the team that is superior that uses unnatural and inhuman advanced tech to avoid having to steep down to the filthy peasants on the battlefield and in the mobs, but can just sit in their furnished bunkers and send drones to do their dirty work or to paralyse humans through the threat of godlike violence?
Comparing the carnage perpetrated by both sides and pointing out, that Israelis would never use their own citizens as human shields, and that this is proof of how much more monstrous Hamas is, conveniently ignores other important facts, or glosses over them. It’s only part of the story and it’s framed this way because of cognitive dissonance. This makes it difficult in having a wider, more objective view of this conflict. Biases run rampant when it comes to people articulating their thoughts on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Yes, it was a terrorist attack by Hamas. What many people including pundits find difficult most of all, is asking what has created and perpetuated the monstrosities being carried out? The question doesn't get asked for obvious reasons. When it does get raised, it’s quickly rationalised by pointing out that regardless of what causes these monstrosities, they’re never justified. This rationale exists because of how difficult it is to accept atrocities having causes, but it doesn't mean they don’t exist, or that they can’t be responsible for them. To reiterate, “yes” the Hamas attack was an act of terror. Decades of abuse creates victims and monsters causing endless loops of suffering. It’s profoundly sad, as reality often is.
You are generalizing the sins of extremists on a whole population. Remember, revenge will beget revenge and until you look for a real solution, the cycle will sadly continue.
I've been estranged from you for a long time, Sam - mostly due to my libertarian sensibilities. However, at times like this, I'm reminded that there is no greater speaker on the ethical differences in warfare than you. Thank you for this excellent monologue. Oh... and.... uh...... I miss you.
And yet nothing on the occupation, theft of land and systematic brutlaisation of an entire people and started it all off by blaming Islam (again). I agree with much of what Sam says but he has never, whenever he has spoken on this issue, just accepted that israel is in breach of countless un resolutions and that the Palestinian people deserve a just outcome after 80 years of shit. If only he could just acknowledge that, hed gain so much more credibility when he speaks on this issue.
I have been watching Sam Harris videos on RUclips for 12+ years and i have read The end of faith, and Free Will, great books. He started to lose me when he aligned with the whole IDW thing, and also how gentle he was on Jordan Peterson in their debates which isn't something i've seen him do 10 years ago. I never thought of him as islamophobe as he was pointing out certain things that were central to radical Islam or even regular islam. However, to see him now just say that Israel is a lonely outpost of democracy in the middle east, when what they are actually doing is ethnically cleansing and preparing to anex the rest of the Palestine as is obvious to anyone who glances at the map over time. Even if you think that Islam is a violent and net negative religion, advocating eradication is never the right way to go. ps. he also got trolled on the whole alien revelation thing by "super secret alien guy" and that sort of made it pretty clear to me, people can be right about certain things, even experts....yet be completely idiotic on other things, but the whole israel thing is just downright evil.
Agree, it is astonishing how a rational person can be so completely blind and biased. A scientist would start with numbers: 10,000 Palestinians dead, 1,400 Israelis killed. With this fact at hand, the analysis of assigning blame becomes impossible. Israel is the most powerful in the region and therefore must take the lead towards peace.
@@dollarette peace is irrelevant, cleansing the holy land was always the goal only an idiot/piece of shit zionist cant see that. It appears Sam is the latter.
Lol you really haven't a single clue. Hamas is literally telling (and showing) the world what their intentions are yet you lot don't even believe them! If Hamas paid down their weapons tomorrow they would have a state. If Israel laid down there weapons tomorrow there would be no Israel. What is Israel to do? 🤔
@@dollaretteUtterly stupid. You have understood nothing. Did Israel intentionally kill those people? Has Hamas no responsibility? This is like arguing with small children.
Sam left out a major fact, not all Palestinian are Muslim, some are actually Christian. The media is focused only on Hamas and it's henious acts. Which yes, a majority (53% per last poll in 2021) of Palestinian in Gaza support, but most likely out of choice and desperation that has turned into hate. Israel has de facto created an aparatheid state full of hate and racism. Looking at the number of civilian casualties on both sides since 2008 to September 2023 there were 20x more Palestinian casualties, 6407 vs 308 reported by OCHA. I condone acts of terrorists and war crimes but painting it as if its the west value vs Muslim value is really what Israel wants us to believe. It's a distorted view of the conflict that's been waging for decades. Palestinians have been suffering the most humiliating and unfair treatment both by Israel and the west. How would you feel if armed man came into your house at night to force you out of your house by force and give it away to some strangers because once upon a time this land belonged to them? Something that current generations of Palestinians have nothing to do with. Is that the kind of world you stand for? A world were hate dictates what is right and wrong? Israel must change its behaviour and make amends to find stability and peace in the region as the most powerful side. Solutions have been put on the table for decades but neither side has really made the effort to make it happen, due to greed, self interrest and corruption - both economic and moral. The claim that Israel could at any moment have caused a genocide but hasn't is absurd, it's in its own interest to keep this conflict alive so that it can keep getting support and money from Washington in order for it to survive in the hostile environment it keeps nurturing in order to take over all the Palestinian land. p.s. Might have left out some facts and key points, but I'm in no way comparing the atrocities perpetuated by both sides.
Not all Palestinians are Palestinians, they are Arabs from Syria, Egypt, Jordan, etc.etc..! Palestinians are fake ethnic group that forces it’s self into Israel!!! Israel gained independence just like Pakistan; Palestinians had the same opportunity to be independent yet they would rather go to war with Israel than live in peace. Not all “Palestinians” are Muslims, not all are Christian, not all are atheists or straight 😂. How would you you like to be killed by Muslims in the middle of the night for being yourself???
Thank you Sam very well said. I am always amazed at your ability to put into words the feeling and emotions and the truth of situations like this. All the best to you and yours.
@samharrisorg Hi Sam, I do agree that intentions matter. Can you then explain the intentions behind Israel's continued support of West Bank settlements, which are war crimes under Article 8 (2) (b) (viii) of the Rome Statute?
@@JashariRilind Great, I have never heard it, but this is not the point. I am not saying he is for the settlements, but how can he explain the motivation. How do the settlements fit with his narrative that Israel just wants to live peacefully with Palestinians?
@@fialeks That is a very valid point and I also made it on a comment under this Video. I do not think the Israeli government has any honest intentions have peace with the palestinians.
@@BowzKnows Israel has special forces, one of the best military forces in the Middle East, one of the best intelligent agencies in the world........ Why Don't they do special operations and stop indiscriminately killing those babies...... If their army can kill babies then there is no need for having those special forces......... Secondly, if israel should stop acting like an apartheid, genocidal, and rogue state and should stop interventions in the middle east, then we might reach a peaceful middle east
Yes ..... a lot of truth in what you say Sam but we must realise that the anger of the Palestinians is off the scale for the horrendous injustices they have suffered. This has led to all this madness.
I think you can expect people to become animals when you keep them in an open air prison for decades. We need a real solution in this region of the world. While I am sure there is overlap, not all Palestinians are in Hamas.
There was a point in very recent history that there was no military blockade at that border, and Israelis lived under constant threat of bus bombings, wedding bombings, pizzeria bombings, stabbings, kidnappings, rocket fire etc. So now there's a blockade for good reason. Hamas has genocidal aspirations, it says so in their charter and after their most recent attack, it should be obvious. Also noteworthy, many Palistinians hold work visas and cross that border daily to make money for their families because there is little economic opportunity under Hamas. The prison analogy breaks down there. I grant that other aspects (Isrsel controlling electricity, supply lines) are more befiting of the analogy, but at a certain point, after thousands of years of slaughter by outsiders and being surrounded by a sea of Arab nations who have repeatedly attacked - you can understand why there is a need for unusual security measures at Israel's borders.
You are confusing two things. Yes, Israel has basically locked up Gaza by building walls and checkpoints. In effect locked the Palestinians in an air prison to mitigate terrorist attacks. But the blockade has nothing to do with it. The blockade controls what comes in to Gaza at the mercy of Israel. That means little to no medicine, little to no UN supplies and absolutely no trade. I think this is what OP meant.
@@arete_ it's worth noting that Gaza borders Egypt as well... that aside - there really is no alternative that I can see when the ruling party of a neighboring state has as its sole mission your destruction. The point you make is valid, how limiting it is to live behind a military blockade, but unless Hamas is removed from power its the only way to keep Israelis safe.
Thanks Sam, this is exactly what I was trying to explain to a very confused person yesterday. If we don't understand the evident asymmetry in the level of human development and culture between an Israeli soldier and a Hamas terrorist we will never know who to watch out for.
@@frankgradus9474 I would say that at the basis of religion there is the capacity for transcendence and at the basis of the capacity for transcendence there are healthy cognitive faculties. Certain dogmatic religions not only do not accompany healthy cognitive and emotional development, but they completely preclude it.
Does anyone else think that history might shed some light on the behavior of Hamas and Israel? ruclips.net/video/6foH3Zc82ZQ/видео.htmlsi=Zx92HHBDXV55257S
--Imagine being born in the US and saying "not all cultures have the same ethics around the application of violence." And then in the same breath conflating different Islamic fundamentalist factions and proceeding to demonize them as a homogenous group. All the while speaking in a way to conflate the fundamentalists with Islam at large. --In this audio clip Sam Harris himself is standing at the bottom of the Grand Canyon, in the middle of a Monty Python sketch, unable to recognize himself as the butt of the joke.
I strongly disagree with his underlying assertion that there is something fundamentally different about “people and cultures” who, in his example, celebrate barbarism or “revel in war crimes” It seems obvious to me that the Palestinian people from Gaza have had their culture and worldview completely shaped by what has been done to them. Jihadism doesn’t arise out of nowhere. It arises from persecution and inequality. He speaks to “maintaining the moral progress of civilization.” Where is that moral progress when thousands of innocent children are being slaughtered? Where is the concern for war crimes that Israel is currently perpetrating? Yes, the use of human shields is despicable. The violence done by Hamas is despicable. As is the violence being done by Israel. There’s a difference between collateral damage and intentional murder? I disagree. I strongly disagree. He’s sweeping aside the deaths of equally innocent human beings as “less bad” than the deaths of the festival attendees. They are not. All death created by violence are equally tragic. All I’m hearing are excuses and dehumanization of the Palestinians. Calling the Middle East a “moral wasteland” is disgusting. And he says it in the same breath as excusing any future war crimes Israel might commit? Come on. He says that collateral damage in regrettable and unwanted? At this stage in the conflict, I truly doubt that can be said. For all the incredible might of the American military, all of the advanced weaponry that we have shared with Israel, I very much doubt that wholesale slaughter is the best that can be done.
I'm a Sam Harris fanatic, and I love how you approach this so rationally. I get what you're getting to with regards to the moral grounds here. And I won't ever say it's okay to put your own people at the stake for the goal of invoking an enemy's response. Radical Islamic groups are not okay, especially if a future is to built upon its values. I'm not super academic and knowledgeable about politics and philosophy. But I am a South African who has experienced the ramifications of Apartheid and still see on a daily basis how people are still trying to fight for a freedom long thought to have been "won". I know my experience doesn't even come close to the Palestinians' daily reality, but I can attempt to empathize. It's important to consider that Israel isn't at the point of having to put their own people in the middle of the battlefield...they have the US and most of the West on their side and if they ever get to this point, then their ancient religious ways (which isn't far different from Islamic radicalist groups, might surface and we'll see the same thing or even worse- the so-called "Christian" nations with their values won't think twice before killing and slaughtering)...Palestine on the other side has nothing. Hamas is fighting for its people to the end of freeing them from Israel who forcefully took their land from them, not for purposes of horror. Yet you seem to claim that the "progressive western values" can be seen in Israel's approach to all this. But most of the West is built upon slaughtering of innocent people to get what they want (not need). Palestine has nothing else left to do. I am sure most Palestines also don't fully agree with Hamas' ways, but at least someone is standing up for them. No other nation is standing up for them, so how else should you engage in conflict with a Western backed enemy? It's easy to make moral judgments if it's not your country being stolen from under your feet. What should Palestine do? Engage in discussions with the other side? That hasn't worked yet...and why should they ask for something that was stolen from them in the first place? If the Bully at school and all his older friends at school keep traumatizing and abusing me and takes things that are mine and indignifies me and comes into my home, no, takes my home and everything i know on a daily basis, it would be best to just turn the cheek and ask them nicely to stop? Or would it be better to get my big brother (whose views on peace and love might not be the same as mine) to step in and help? It will obviously lead to a fight. Palestine isn't just standing up against Israel. This nation is standing up against a barbaric West and Hamas is the big brother. Slaughter seems to be okay if it comes from the West, but not okay if the other side is doing it. It would be nice if Palestine had the power of other nations behind it to at least peacefully come to terms with this "nation", Israel. Hamas' provoked actions are not desired. Better ways of doing this could be thought of...but for how long will the nations of the world with all its power and "morality" just sit and watch how the Palestinians and their cultures and beauty are slowly but surely being removed from this Earth? THAT is more evil than what Hamas is doing. Western sanctimonious disposition is the newest form of radical evil in this world. It's a new moral ground.
I see zero objective quality to these analyses. To be clear--Hamas is very much a terrorist group but Israel and the powers that be are terrorist nations. Pick your side-they all commit violent and horrific atrocities. The clear difference is the rhetoric used. "western" nations are on the "right side" of history because they are writing it and we live in a west thus that's what we will see. Being someone who follows Sam Harris, Daniel Dennet, Chris Hitchens, etc. I thought I'd get some real objectivity, but I was sadly mistaken.
I didn't say anything about how many palestinians support hamas. Whether 50% or 80% or 90% support hamas, you're claiming it's okay to commit war crimes. Ugly stance youre taking there. You're just putting words in my mouth and not addressing the fact that both sides are guilty except one boasts massive power while the other has their electricity water and movement restricted. I feel bad for you and I hope one day you grow a heart that's not just for the people that look like you @@deeky1239
Relations of power, that is, who has it and who doesn't. are what matters. Your comment is among the few that address that fact. I find it most interesting that Sam Harris doesn't bother to address this point and instead frames his argument in terms of good versus evil. I find it puzzling that someone as intelligent as Sam Harris seems to avoid mentioning power relations in not only this podcast but in others such as his recent discussion with David Brooks and his Climate change podcast as well. Actually I find the omission quite revealing.
"If we recognize the monstrosities of the past, we surely must recognize the monstrosities of the present." One problem, of course, is that many still refuse to recognize the monstrosities of the past. In fact, they're busy making sure their own culture's monstrosities are glossed over or completely ignored in history classes. People will always be eager to acknowledge the monstrosities of others.
The “monstrosity” is an evolutionary feature encoded in our dna for times of extreme desperation. We in the west have the luxury of not have dealing with this “monstrosity” feature since ww2.
A certain dynamic that you need to see sam. You say Israelis would never use their people as human shields , yet Palestinians would never bully others and try to subjigate them. This is the dynamic of the bully and its victim, the bully has an insecurity which he fills by humiliating his victim and provoking a response. This response he then uses as excuse to further put down (kill/deport) his victim. At all times he has a false sense of security that he wants to keep through bullying and in that sense you are right that Israel doesn't want to have much losses, its the victim that is ready to lose more in order to get rid of his bully due to the depravity, hatred and desperation that he is in . And in that sense the bully creates the terrorist. You think Israel really wants to get rid of hamas? They may want to hit them hard but they will still keep them because that keeps them fed with the sense of superiority, killing would just relif the suffering but they want to make them suffer as much a possible, maybe to make them feel like how they had suffered during history. And in that sense the victim can turn also into the bully. Israeli was a victim that became a bully to redeem itself. I still believe this war might actually bring peace. The bully continues to provoke since he doesn't expect much from his victim. But when the victim responds in the most Unexpected and outragious way. The bully will give him a final hit, the hardest, but will be more hesitant to provoke another fight due to the hightened risk of losing his sense of security . Your belief of a morality that is more superior than another is part of the problem as it denies that we all have to learn from one another.
Ah, yes, the moral clarity of the fanatic: He said he didn't care if Hunter Biden had "corpses of children in his basement"--he wanted a media coverup to defeat Trump.
It is not moral clarity to say Israeli violence is better than Hamas violence. Both are abhorrent. To say Israel is free from moral responsibility towards its neighbour and that the evil by Hamas is the only evil is not moral clarity but moral bankruptcy.
@@7king8debs79 That's not what Sam said, but a twisted biased parody or strawman distortion of what he said. You are effectively arguing against your own lies. Intellectual bankruptcy?
@rozzgrey8015 did you listen to the man's words? He effectively absolved Israeli of crimes against humanity. He connected evil only to Hamas and Islam. The slaughter of children is abhorrent WHOEVER does it. Harris gives Israel a free pass because of the Hamas tactics. I'm unsure where you believe there was a strawman argument. I listened to the man's rhetoric and didn't buy it.
as if you're saying something profound. the crimes are obvious, as are your bias and ego.
This clarity is what is missing from much of the online debate at the moment. Thanks Sam for your wisdom.
It’s BS. Nat Turner and John Brown killed civilians in their uprisings but we understand that bc they were oppressed and enslaved. But when Palestinians do the same thing we call them monsters. You’re on the wrong side of history bub. You’d probably be cheering on the slave owners back then too. Gross
Clarity? He brought up the encroaching settlements, then didn't address them. He claimed the occupation ended in 2005, which it by no means did. He failed to acknowledge the blockade, or the raids, or the Isreali government's open incitement of discrimination.
He acts as if the Isreali government hasn't been committing war crimes for 75 years. What is clear about this one sided mud slinging?
If Israel laid down their arms now what would happen?
If Hamas, Iran, and all of the various Arab states that don’t recognize their legitimacy laid down their arms, what would happen?
You know the answer.
@@maxmccann3030 The greater tragedy is the west bows down to both without firing a shot. Losing their societies while it's leaders only stand for Israel yet import Palestinians and other arabs.
U call that wisdom - he is a liar- there r no human shields when Israel uses 1000lb bombs and destroys everything in sight.
"If we recognise the monstrosities of the past, we should recognise the monstrosities of the present."
Well said and thank you, Sam.
Sam, we don’t have to go as far back as the atrocities of lynching of negroes.
What about the US war crimes in :
- Iraq
- Afghanistan
- Vietnam
- Korea
- 1954 Coup of Iran
- Endless Coups of democratically elected governments and arming of right wing death squads
Where does Sam get off pretending the US has acted with moral integrity. WTF.
Of course what of the acts of Israel perpetrated on the Palestinians over the last 75 years, not to mention the Apartheid state of Israel today.
Sam Harris has a very myopic version of History and Morality.
Sam never wants to acknowledge present Western monstrosities though. When western or Israeli forces kill innocent bystanders, he always dismisses it as "yeah, that was bad, but we had good intentions". It's so easy to sit in a safe American city and high- mindedly talk about intentions. When your family gets killed by accident, you don't care about the killers supposed morality.
All true, Sam Harris, but irrelevant. Netanyahu caused this conflict. He wanted it, he stirred up the Palestinians, and he got the response he wanted. Hamas are to be condemned for killing civilians, but that does not change the fact that Netanyahu made this happen: by shutting the Palestinian Authority out of negotiations he destroyed their standing and boosted Hamas. Then Netanyahu made life so difficult for Palestinians that it provoked a reaction and played into his hands. He was warned that Hamas were planning an attack and he did nothing about it. It's what he wanted.
@@paulr3002Netanyahu wanted this? Are you a mind reader? If not, keep your assumptions in check. In my oppinion he's using/abusing this siruation to boost his own polls and do his own war. Not unlike Bush after 9/11 and Irak. Big mess, lots of trouble, except the US can leave and Israel is stuck in it.
Guess the planet is flat too.@@paulr3002
Sam no one said Gaza was under occupation! The occupation ended in 2006! But that is when the "blockade" of Gaza began!
The Palestinians cannot even bring in cement or electronics and cannot leave Gaza!
Why talk about matters you do not understand?
A very simple question here is is Israel not occupying Palestinian land?
Why is Israel allowed to do exactly that? And Russias occupation of Ukraine is a war crime in which you feel we need to actively fight against!
Explain the hypocrisy
There is a blockade because Hamas didn't stop attacking civilians ever since, and no state will allow unstopping attacks to last forever. Palestinians are getting out of Gaza to work in Israel (before the war). How did Hamas built these tunnels and rockets? from baking powder and grass? where did they get the unending capacity to fire missiles since the war began? Where is the fuel of Shifa hospital and UNWRA? How can you call it a genocide when the population has doubled itself? You, sir, are one of the confused. plus, the fact that you think he doesn't understand, means that you have no idea what he has been doing for the last decades. To sum it up, stop copy pasting lies.
Please never stop repeating yourself Sam!
😂
Maybe some of the stuff from 2015 to 2023 could do without repeating.
@@RafaleKez4 Exactly. Reality check time. The hypothetical bodies in the basement aren't as compelling as the real ones in the street.
Voltaire remains as prescient and germane as ever.
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities."
Germane, yes, but stuff like this has been going on since well before Voltaire's time. It is a wise philosophy and a wonderful quote, but it doesn't require any prescience.
Thank you for this quote, five months later
"Israel remains a lonely outpost of civilised ethics in the absolute moral wasteland that is the Middle East."
Meanwhile, last year, the UN condemned Israel more times than all other countries combined.
The UN is a joke nowadays
@@TheOriginalTPro What's that based on?
@@T_J_ the UN ignores the outcomes of it's own voting system & therefor is anti-democracy due to overwhelming fear of disobeying USA + Israel
Yes, he completely lost me with this statement... Illegal settlements in the West Bank, killing of Palestinian teenagers for fun, yes, I'm sure that's civilised and ethical, Israel.
@@abluecassetteyou completely missed the point of this episode if you're comparing the morality of living in an illegal settlement (a land dispute) to the massacre of families in their homes. Also, when and where has the idf ever killed a teenager for fun? Did they post videos boasting about it, standing on a battered teenage body with thumbs up and smiling? Oh no wait, that was Hamas. Correct me if I'm wrong, send me some pics of the idf doing the same things we're seeing right now all over the internet posted by Hamas.
You're not convincing me on this moral equivalence thing. Justifying the killing of non-combatants is a slippery moral slope. The one thread that runs through so many moral commentators is my side bias, it's universal in human beings.
No one is suggesting that the deaths of non-combatants is a good thing, but it is a reality of war and war is hell. And just because war is hell doesn't mean it never needs to be fought.
I always think Sam is at his best during difficult times like these. Well said Sam.
Covid?
@@andrewofaiur sure
@@andrewofaiur lol
@@andrewofaiur nope, not so much 😂 But on previous incidents of terrorism, and the killing of George Floyd.
@@kayoss2306 Advising people to listen to experts is a pretty safe take.
I really do love how Sam just masterfully crystallizes ideas and can be so pinpoint accurate and clear.
I love Sam but... Pinpointing an obvious non helpful fact?
not accurate if the presuppositions he makes that leads up to his opinions is flawed by either wilful ignorance or a quite specific lack of factual information in key points about the present and past leaing up to today's conflict,
the reality is there a far more well versed people (no not ben shapiro, definitely not ben shapiro) we should be listening to on this topic, and as much as i love Sam and support him (shout out my fellow patreons) he is ignorant on this just like the rest of us, and he should have just stayed quiet. Sure everyone has the right to express their opinions but doesn't make it valid.
@@atisht.n.t.m4844 His entire thesis was not about the history of Israel/Palestine, territorial dispute ex, it was specifically the moral equivalence being drawn from deliberating killing citizens and using your own people as human shields and the collateral damage you get from war. That is something that can be addressed on its face without any “context” of the specific Israel/Palestine situation. Why dont you engage in that debate and tell me what you have issue with?
@@sideshowamitalmost everyone that criticizes Sam doesn't understand what his opinions are. It's hilarious
@@sideshowamit Thank you for summarizing the _actual point_ of the podcast. It seems to me that many of the comments under Sam Harris videos are made without having listened first.
As much as i like Sam Harris and his views about islam ,
i think his judgement on Israel -Palestine issue is blinded by his skepticism towards Islam.
The Israel-Palestine issue is bigger than religion(yes religion is issue too) but the fact that Palestinians are stripped off from their motherland their home is a fact.
Hamas indeed is a terroist organisation and its actions should be condemned but the underlying cause for the conflict should he addressed too.
Do you think the history of the conflict would be the same if the Palestinians had never supported Hamas, an organization that was founded to eliminate the Jews in the region?
@@Lord_Nordan- do you think Hamas would exist if the Palestinians had long ago been given equal rights and access to a hopeful future?
@@stevelocke3667 Why haven't they been given equal rights and treatment?
@@Lord_Nordan They are, more appropriately were, on the land that Israel wants. Wait, and didn’t Netanyahu prop up Hamas to the detriment of more secular popularly elected governments in order to destabilize Palestine? Yeah I think so. Sam is blinded by his own prejudice on this one.
@@Lord_Nordan Because they've routinely attacked Israel and openly declared their intent for genocide of the Jewish race. Sam's on the nose though about the bullshittery of moral equivelancy. Comparing the aims of the groups, and the most recent events is like comparing the bombing of Dresden to the Holocaust. They're not even in the same sphere of morality. and ethics.
There are sadly too many assumptions and generalization in this argument made here. I am a former muslim myself and I come from the middle-east and I know what it is like to have been born there and to live under oppression and fear for so many years and how it influences morality. What Hamas did in this event was wrong and hideous in every way, true. But you assume that they forcefully take human shields and that the Palestinians don't have reasons to sympathize with them. You generalize and assume all these militant islamic groups are the same or hold the same cause and morals. Hamas was born out of the systematic chronic oppression and fear of the Palestinian people for decades by the Isrealis. A necessary evil. Survival instinct. To survive you might do the unthinkable. Hamas, is for some, the only thing that stands between them and eradication. Imagine a big bully with his gang behind him coming to your home because the goverment allowed them to move in without consulting you and told them to live there. punching you and your family for decades. You see your daughter die, your wife running away, etc... You sometimes catch a breath and punch back. Then the bully takes out the knife as an excuse. Then your big brother who is a physically less threatening bully defends you. Although you and your bro don't see eye to eye and he is scum of the earth, you will sympathize with him and protect him... because if not, you will die or lose more than you already lost and what little remains of your dwindling dignity and possessions. If your brother kills their families as revenge, you would struggle to condone his actions however wrong they may be. Morals can only be compared when you are under the same circumstances.
I was listening and thinking that the way he was framing most of his statements were not necessarily false. But they also left out so much. Israel doesn't have to use anyone as a human shield. It can be argued, I suppose, that no one ever does. But Israel has no motivation to do so. They're responding right now to a failure in their morally supported, high tech, rarely fails defense. There is such a power differential here. It reminds of the quote, paraphrased, that riots are the language of the oppressed. I'm not saying this about any one attack, let alone the obviously disgusting and horrible one on the 7th. I'm saying to imply that people have no reason to feel angry or desperate is intellectually dishonest.
I read many books of Sam Harris and he is normally well spoken. I logically agreed with him at first in this recording, but it didn't feel right because I know how the weak, oppressed, and desperate react first hand. It shows how drawing a frame for an argument and omitting important points to support your view is intentionally or not a misleading thing to do and can lead to an even opposing conclusion. A bias I however can understand coming from his background.
The difference in power should be considered as you say, yes.
The oppressed will react against the oppressors in what might be called immoral ways. Maybe they couldn't hurt the Isreali military so they went for civilians. I find it still morally wrong, unthinkable, and utterly inhumane. The end doesn't justify the means for me. But if one loses enough, one might just change their mind and use any and all means.
This is mere apologism. Sorry. Either the same moral principles apply in all situations and contexts or you are making excuses for one group out of partisanship and bias.
Your exemption of Hamas and Palestinians from basic human decency and morality is the worst kind of exceptionslism I've ever seen in my lifetime.
You're also clearly a victim of Palestinian propaganda. They are not nearly as "oppressed" as if often claimed. While Israel has made multiple mistakes, almost all the things which are claimed to be oppressive by Palestinians are either NOT at all - or the direct consequence of a full century of jew-hating violence and massacres. The security checkpoints came after numerous "martyr operations". The arrests of Palestinians came after terrorist groups came after suicide bombings. I could keep listing them and you'd see that in every case Israel has responded to try to protect themselves from REAL violence.
As for the earlier years, at what point during the British mandate was it oppressive for Jewish refugees to buy land to farm from Arabs? At what point was it justified to slaughter Jews in the dozens for building ho'nes? Retaliation only began after massacres by Arab mobs became a trend. And then when homeless Holocaust survivors arrived after WWiI - a war in which a Mufti made a pact with Hitler to "remove all Jews" - how could anyone morally justify the response to war refugees which the Arab world gave them : to try to eliminate Israel entirely.
Your perspective as an Arab is valuable only insofar as you have actually evaluated how deeply biased your perceptions are.
I have listened to you for years. I find it incredible that you have the strength to speak your wonderfully rational mind despite all the hatred you receive. You are an inspiration. I would love to hear a podcast on how you deal with it. I am in a situation where I'm hated by someone and I find it mentally damaging. I wish I had your ability to deal with it.
Harris is just a purely irrational tribalist who is clever enough to convince many that he is a rationalist. He said he didn't care if Hunter Biden had "corpses of children in his basement"--he wanted a media coverup to defeat Trump--whom he labeled "worse than Osama bin Laden." Obviously, he cares in this instance only about Jewish children, not at all about Muslim children. He is not an American, he is a tribal Jew.
Thank you, Sunshine, you put that absolutely superbly!
I, likewise, find the intellectual stamina and personal courage of people such as the remarkable Sam Harris or the late Christopher Hitchens (I miss him so much!) utterly uplifting and inspiring.
@@bertputtocks903 I completely agree. Hitchens was amazing. Thank goodness RUclips has plenty of clips to revisit. Another favourite of mine is in the RUclips world is "Love letters to Dawkins" Have a lovely day.
I was thinking the same thing, it's incredible Sam has managed to remain so level headed through the past few years. I'd love to know how he keeps it together. I know he deleted his bird app account, maybe he just knows his limits and when to step away.
@@BryanLawlor Nonsense.
To this day I find it maddeningly frustrating that so many people lose their mind if one tries to explain that:
A) If two controversies exist, that doesn't mean you can automatically play false equivalency with them;
B) If we say one controversy is worse than the other, it doesn't mean we're saying the other is a non-controversy.
So many people can't seem to realize there is a wide space between playing (false) equivalency, and a zero sum game morality. Elementary critical thought and basic morality seem to be in extreme scarcity.
Because 'zero-sum-game' morality makes things look not too good for them when you start actually counting the scores,
it's much easier to just cherrypick, gaslight, strawman, and insist that any crime is "okay as long as we're the ones doing it"
Most people just aren't very intelligent.
I will grant Sam any day of the week that MOST of his argument is valid, but the small part where he is TOTALLY 100% WRONG needs saying.
Claiming cultural superiority is the most dangerous of all human traits because at its most basic it decides the fate of people by their birth. Its the very basis for for so many of histories ugliest moments. Every cultural and tribal and nation group has its fanatics and every so often that group takes control. That usually happens when a society is under stress. We are seeing that in America right now, where there is staggering economic stress over a massive section of the population. Its what's allowed Trump to grasp the power base that he has.
The stress that Israel has applied to the Palestinian people for such a long time now has lead many young Palestinians right into the arms of Hamas. Just like the stress on many young Germans in the 1930s lead them into the arms of the Nazis.
The other thing is that such fanatics will mistreat their own people with MORE violence and cruelty than they treat others. In Germany people who they felt were unworthy of being shot were guillotined like Sophie Scholl whose crime was distributing anti-Nazi Pamphlets at the University of Munich.
A few weeks back Vice News did a story titled _"Israel’s Far Right Government is a Gift to Settlers"_ in that story a young settler who has been REMOVED from land he has claimed on multiple occasions by ISRAELI authorities. They have told him repeatedly that this patch of land is NOT HIS to take. In the interview in one breath he's claiming that he's peaceful and he says "I'm a Jew talking to a non-Jew peacefully" In the next breath he basically says that anyone who doesn't agree with what he wants should have their heads cut off.
Whenever you ignore the fanatics among any group they will fester and wait for an opportunity to grasp power. Right now Sam should have a look over his shoulder at the Libertarians in America. They've been waiting decades to grasp power and Trump opened the door for them BECAUSE the lazy establishments of both the DNC and RNC left a massive slab of the American population vulnerable to a morally bankrupt person like Trump.
The lesson is:
NEVER ignore the fanatic in your own culture or one day they will rip your people apart when you least expect it.
The part about cultural superiority in Sam's video is fucking appalling. I bet that's what Americans, British, French, Israelis, and Germans told themselves before each invasion (All but America successfully/unsuccessfully invaded my home country). Well done Sam! That's the first video of him I watch and will be the last.
@@aabouelkhir5023 Cya
One of the problems here is that morality is becoming kind of a flawed lens to view this conflict through. Until material conditions change significantly all this moralizing lets you be on the side of modern, civilized society but does nothing to address the actual mechanisms shaping people's very minds. Societies living under extreme stress tend to produce morally worse individuals. Many of these individuals may lean towards barbarism, like placing such a low value on the lives of their neighbors' children that they would use them as human shields. Ok, they are worse people than the Israelis that don't do this. But Palestinians practically live in a different century than the Israelis and have been swimming in these waters since birth. Proclaiming moral high ground achieves nothing and draws attention away from the fact that Israel has many more levers of control over the material situation than some destitute mobs raging in the bombed out streets of an open air prison.
And holy shit, there's something very chilling about the phrase "collateral damage" at this point in history. Of course inadvertent civilian casualties are different from abduction and cold-blooded murder of children, but I fear this euphemistic passivity belies a quiet horror that modern civilized Westerners repeatedly just sweep under the rug when there are displays of anachronistic savagery to be viscerally appalled by.
All of this is nihilism-inducing. Hamas are monsters, people supporting them are not far behind, Israel is justified in harsh retaliation... yet, standing around on the moral high ground seems to only distance us from any actual progress.
You are overthinking it. Israel has the moral high ground. Israel is not TRYING to kill innocent civilians. Intentions matter a LOT.
They literally want to complete the holocaust ..
You make good points, but ultimately I agree with the commenter above.
Literally wrong. There are countries, cultures, peoples that have suffered much worse conditions than the Palestinians, but who have yet NOT became this barbaric in enacting their resistance. If anything, Hamas (as an expression of Palestinian resistance) is an anomaly. Even Nazi concentration camp prisoners, who were literally beaten, starved, saw all their loved ones be industrially murdered, were more humane than Hamas - and its many cheerleaders around the world.
How do you square all that with people living in the most developed countries on the planet forming mobs and chanting "gas the Jews"?
Missing from the analysis is some thought as to asymmetry of power. When the US engaged in war in Iraq it promised 'shock and awe' and when any modern advanced military sabre rattles they threaten total destruction with advanced weapons. But lesser armies can not bring shock and awe by technological means, they reign what terror they can with small arms and ammunitions but the effect is similar, with many innocent people becoming victims. Think back to when governments and the rule of law were in their early days. The State would chop off the hands off of those who stole bread. As surveillance and policing became more effective, harsh punishments were no longer necessary because the power of the state became unquestionable. The severity of punishment did not decrease on moral grounds, but because it was no longer necessary to strike fear in the population to get them to obey the law. Most people understood the power of the law was virtually absolute. Likewise I'm not convinced so called advanced civilizations and their militaries are more moral as such but rather their power has become so absolute that they have changed tactics. When that power is challenged watch the morality slip away....
Very clarifying. Thanks for doing this, especially in the face of all the hate that will inevitably come your way.
As a (3rd gen) Palestinian / Lebanese - American, I can’t agree more. Very well said, Sam.
Is an Israeli, Thank you brother. Reason knows no bounds
And your family decided to emigrate. Sometimes you can just decide whether you want to be right or if you want to be happy.
You are a shameful example of a Palestinian/Lebanese if you're telling the truth (which I highly doubt).
From one American to another, I'm glad you're here, and I hope if you have any family and friends over there, that they're ok.
Do you still agree after more than three months of war?
Sam, you have taken every thought and opinion I have on this conflict, HERE AND NOW, not in the past, not in the future. However right here and now in the present time and eloquently and calmly expressed them in a way I never could. Bravo my friend.
I can't believe someone who is considered an 'intellectual' could be so willfully ignorant on a subject and seek to cherry pick information to fit a biased narrative he has constructed in his head. As an example he states (while discussing human shields), "But pay attention, I'm describing concrete behaviors, behaviors that occur on only one side of this conflict". Apparently, research isn't a skill developed among the dark web intellectuals given it takes a few seconds of research to find reports published by Israeli human rights organizations exposing a list of incidents in which the IDF violated a High Court of Justice injunction by using Palestinians as human shields (as part of the "neighbor procedure") which includes IDF soldiers using Palestinian civilians in the action that led to the killing of Iyad Sawalha in Jenin on 9 Nov. 2002. His intellectually bankrupt statement also ignores the fact that Israel located many of the defense institutions in residential areas. I am lost on how Israel placing military operations in residential areas is morally different than what Hamas is accused of. And if we are talking about moral equivalence, wouldn't a state be held to a higher standard than a designated a terrorist group?
Continuing on moral equivalence, what does it say about a state that would create, strengthen and fund a terrorist group (to achieve political objectives), which Israel has done in the case of Hamas? Should there not be more accountability placed on the Israeli political establishment than Palestinian society? Additionally, Palestinians didn't use taxpayer funds to create an Israeli terrorist group to counter secularists and leftists within Israeli society. Pay attention, I'm describing concrete behaviors, behaviors that try to wash away the sins of one group due to inherent biases.
Yup. I listened to this in disbelief. I was one of those who used to roll my eyes when Israel was described as an Apartheid state, but the older I get and the more I read about the conflict the more convinced I am that there is no solution except for very large concessions by the Israeli government.
The UN still considers the Gaza strip to be under ockupation, btw.
couldnt even make it through the video, thats a first for me.
I’m not going to take any kind of “intellectual” argument made by someone w a Wikipedia drop down about Islamophobia Controversies.
Im glad there are some sensible people left here lol. Thank you for this!
"Apparently, research isn't a skill developed among the dark web intellectuals given it takes a few seconds of research to find reports published by Israeli human rights organizations exposing a list of incidents in which the IDF violated a High Court of Justice injunction by using Palestinians as human shields (as part of the "neighbor procedure") which includes IDF soldiers using Palestinian civilians in the action that led to the killing of Iyad Sawalha in Jenin on 9 Nov. 2002."
This isn't a response to what Sam said. This actually supports Sam's point, particularly if you manage a bit more research.
First, imagine a Palestinian human rights organization within Gaza publishing reports of Hamas using Israelis as human shields. If you managed that, now imagine Hamas prosecuting its fighters for using Israelis as human shields. The reason I'm asking you to do this is because it's worth noting that the existence of groups within Israel that attempt to hold the IDF accountable matters, and the fact that the IDF prosecuted some of its own soldiers for the "neighbor procedure" matters (this is where the "a bit more research" comes in).
"I am lost on how Israel placing military operations in residential areas is morally different than what Hamas is accused of."
You should not be. There is a sliding scale here, but there is a difference between having a military base in a residential area, and running an armed resistance out of a residential apartment building. Does the IDF intentionally put its bases in places that would maximize civilian casualties if they were attacked? No. Does Hamas intentionally put its bases in places that would maximize civilian casualties if they were attacked? Yes.
"wouldn't a state be held to a higher standard than a designated a terrorist group?"
No. Especially not when that terrorist group is the de-facto government of 2.3M people (this responsibility is by the way why some countries haven't designated Hamas as a terrorist group). This is substantially larger than some countries.
"Should there not be more accountability placed on the Israeli political establishment than Palestinian society?"
There should be consequences for Likud's and Netanyahu's despicable support of Hamas while undermining Palestinian moderates. Unsure what is meant by "more accountability", but I am optimistic that Netanyahu's cynical strategy toward Palestinians will be forever shut down.
A 2-state solution is the only possible solution, Netanyahu should be removed from power and held responsible, the occupation of the West Bank should end, no to settlements, aid routes to Gaza should be opened, AND... there is no moral equivalence between the IDF and Hamas. Can we manage all of this, as a society, or at long last is it just too hard?
I agree with Sam on the erroneous claim of a moral equivalence between the intentions of the Israeli's as a whole and its enemies during war time, but the claim that war crimes are the exception to the rule on the side of the IDF isn't entirely accurate either - the higher death count by collateral damage is not the only means of punishment the IDF seeks out, they also restrict the supply of food and water, regularly shut off the power grid and starve millions at a time. These are war crimes. What do these tactics have to do with collateral damage? Sam is lucid in his thinking and explanations of the asymmetry between the intentions of Jihadi's and the Israelis, but when he glosses over the notion that controlling airspace, maritime and resources into Palestine is still deemed as an occupation, by both the UN and U.S. State Department, one can't help but notice the blind spots into Sam's analysis. The absence of a physical presence doesn't diminish the control of the area in the same egregious fashion as being there on ground.
The power grid was shut down because the Hamas buys fuel via the Palestinian Authority and refuses to pay for it. Also, the Palestinians are not under any circumstances "starved", there is no shortage of food in Gaza or the West Bank. The rates of obesity in Palestinian society are skyrocketing. You're simply making it up.
No one disputes that Israel is blockading the Gaza strip and preventing supplies of commodities from entering. When you are at war with a belligerent enemy, you have the legal right to prevent weapons and supplies from reaching their armed forces, which is established in the laws of war for centuries. In 2011, the UN Palmer Committee ruled that the blockade of the Gaza strip was 100% legal, it's not under any circumstances a "war crime". If you pick and choose only the facts that suit your narrative, you won't be able to help find a solution to the world's problems.
@@HeadofIbis1st claim addressed: The power grid in Gaza was shut down due to a fuel shortage, which was a result of the Israeli blockade on the Gaza Strip. Amnesty International has called for Israel to lift its "illegal and inhumane" blockade and restore Gaza's electricity supply. There is zero evidence of it not being paid for. 2nd claim addressed: The Israeli blockade has had a significant impact on the availability and affordability of food and other essential goods. Amnesty International has described the blockade as a form of collective punishment that "disproportionately harms Palestinian civilians. 3rd claim addressed: While the UN Palmer Committee concluded that the blockade had a legal basis, a panel of five independent UN rights experts rejected this conclusion, stating that the blockade violated international human rights and humanitarian law. Anything else?
Israel doesn’t have to use their own people as human shields. They have military backup from the US.
Using your own people as shields is a strategy born of despair.
You've missed the point entirely that using non-combatants as sheilds wouldn't work for Israel, no matter how desperate they became, because Hamas and other Islamic terrorist organizations would view it as a two-birds-one-stone situation, gladly killing the shield and the soldier; whereas Israel is actually deterred by it because they don't want to kill Palestinian non-combatants. That moral difference is the heart of this entire episode... I'm not sure how you missed it.
The point is that Israel will never use its people as human shields. It is a strategy born of a loss of humanity, and a love of death instead of life. Hamas celebrates civilian martyrdom. They do not avoid it. Sam's point is that Israel does not think this way, and therefore Hamas exploits that weakness.
@@HTtwentyten though israel has gladly uses other palestinians as human shields.
@@HTtwentyten Gee I wonder what could be the reason for someone to lose humanity and embrace death ... you're pretty close to a lightbulb moment, my dude.
You're irresponsibly ignorant about the ideology that gets pumped into these movements. You expect them to think like you, to behave like you would. They do not.@@Heldarion
Thank you, Sam.
You always bring so much order into the mental chaos that is happening all around us. You're deeply appreciated.
Israel "routinely" gives Palestinian civilians ten minute warnings before they flatten entire neighborhoods from the air to punish one or two militants (if there are any there at all), and this is what Sam calls "civilized"??
Really, was it unclear that Hamas is slightly more evil than the people who decide to torture and starve Palestinans?
@@jozefwoo8079 torture?
Calm criticism is not equal to accurate criticism
@@atisht.n.t.m4844 and yet he is both
Sam's moral landscape is looking quite pockmarked with bomb craters. His argument is simply the well dressed, well educated, well presented argument is nicer. The barbarian on the other hand, who does not bother with facade, is uglier.
The nicer the prison is the open air one.
Let's have Sam and Ben Affleck rekindle their debate on the upcoming anniversary of their infamous showdown on Real Time. I can't wait for Ben to explain to us how Hamas just want go about their day and "eat sandwiches".
Can't wait to hear how Israel is just acting in self defense when they commit genocide. And how when they will have killed everyone in Gaza it was just morally reasonable genocidal self defense.
I revisited that video just yesterday to end a long tiring day with a good laugh. Your comment has me genuinely laughing out loud
James Dunphy, I don't know you. But I already love you.
HEAR, HEAR!!! ✌
He never said that. But it’s interesting how very little compassion you have for Palestinians
@@mrmoto66 Ben quite literally said that "muslims are just trying to make sandwiches" lol
Sam, according to international law Israel continued to occupy Gaza by way of its control of access by land, sea and air. It suited Israel to claim that the de facto open was no longer occupied. The fact that Israel has been able to put Gaza under siege immediately is evidence that it continued to occupy Gaza.
You support baby decapitators.
The IDF blockaded Gaza to stop bomb and rocket making material from getting in, Hamas is and was a hostile entity in control of Gaza.
you make it sound like it's an open and shut case but as a matter of fact you can convincingly argue both sides from an IHL perspective
@@crampton16 There’s no both sides here. Only one is delighting in savagery.
One side actively avoids targeting civilians while the other puts their own children in the way of bullets to make it appear as thou Israel is targeting children. One side is ashamed of killing civilians while the other live streams it. The fact that Israel even lets Gaza exist while the Palestinians don’t recognize Israel’s right to exist and Israel actually let’s them live is a miracle! The sooner Gaza is razed and rebuild by Jews the better! What have the Palestinian contributed to humanity? Welfare cases that make bombs from all the aid money..no more aid money😂🖕🏼
As usual, Sam outdoes the entire news media for clarity, wisdom and sanity.
Man your analysis is somehow so convincing yet so incorrect. Its disturbing that so many people will listen to this and think that it is as black and white as you make it sound
This argument would make sense if not for the fact that The purpose of Hama's is to lend Justification to Netanyahu's ultra Right Wing Racist policies, which in turn justifies Hamas.
Each completes the other.
Didn't Netanyahu use his people for political expediency? - Egypt intelligence official says Israel ignored repeated warnings
I think if you look at what's happening the actions of both Hama's and the Israeli government work counter to the interests of both the Palestinian and Israeli people.
So the question is why does it keep happening?
The answer may be that these actions work well for the self perpetuation of the two entities.
The answer definitely isn't Islamic extremism.
Not to mention a former Israeli intelligence chief admitted that they helped create Hamas. They funded Hamas to weaken the PLO, which was far more secular. But I don't think Sam is that interested in bits of history that fall outside his argument
Facts
Exactly. Netanyahu doesn't want a two-state solution. He's happy that Hamas is there, giving the Israeli govt an excuse to eliminate them.
You lost me at "justifies Hamas"....another attempt at moral equivalence that Sam is pointing out here.
@@sennsita01 Extremely reductive. Try again.
If Israel had only a few thousand fighters and only assault rifles for weaponry, and palestine was a nuclear power with fighter jets, tanks, bombers and able to call up a military of over 300,000 men, then I have no doubt that Israel would use their own people as human shields. It is the ridiculous imbalance of power that makes desperate people do desperate and horrible things.
I've been thinking about what Sam Harris is gonna say about this all week.
Like you couldn't predict what he was going to say about this...
@lolizorz Like we couldn't predict how you antisemitic jihadophiles would respond to this attack?
Same, was looking it up almost everyday on youtube. Began to get annoyed when I kept seeing the brain thumbnail for his psychedelics video. 😅
@@lolizorzyou could probably predict what he was going to say. But he just has a gift of articulating complex topics to the point of absolute clarity.
@@lolizorz I had a vague notion of what he might drive at, but I knew his actual words would help to catalyze my own thinking on the issue.
Thank you man...
I am so sick of the lies. The hypocrisy.
The human shield example is devastating. Sam Harris has nailed it with his calm logic. The guy is indispensable.
I like how the people who bomb and open fire on supposed human shields of children are the good guys in your demented brain.
Bollicks
The human shield meme has been debunked all over the internet.
@@squatch545 The very fact that Hamas knew ahead of their assault that Israel would have to respond by bombarding Gaza with all its civilians having no where to go, *IS* EXACTLY the use of civilians as human shields. No meme about it.
no its not. stop spreading lies@@squatch545
Sam always clarifies a difficult situation beautifully.
Ham Sarris does it better
Tell that to people who ended up with heart attacks and strokes after listening to his pushing of the quackccines.
@@Mac-ku3xu you mean his pointing out that medical science was supportive of the vaccine? It's the people he criticised who were pushing quackery.
@@wasneeplusI’m loving life with zero jabs, great health, and no potential timebomb ticking inside me. But you keep taking your medical advice from CNN and its bigharma owners. Good luck “following the $cience.”
@Mac-ku3xu it's crazy that people will believe alternative media over the WHO and CDC which is full of experts.
The preeminent voice of reason. Thank you, Sam
nobody is the preeminent voice of reason, im sure youre saying this more for praise then for accuracy, but i think he's being quite reasonable with inaccurate information
Sam lost his grasp on reason long ago
except this is completely insane. Israel is about to commit ethnic cleanising. on 1million people. How they can order the population of a place Sam says they don't controll out, is a mystery.
@@gmw3083give some examples
He is Jewish I don’t trust him
Nothing but sheer platitudes! .. if Hamas were embedded in the Israeli civilians would you have seen the same level of carnage taking place in Gaza right now? .. maybe you are right! There is no moral equivalence .. and just like everything it depends on which side you are standing on. You don't have any kind of moral high ground here.
You can't buffer your bigotry and Islamophobia by creating a moral ambiguity. Essentially, you are like everyone else: you chose a point where you wanted history to start (2006), build on your own narrative, which is nothing but a confirmation bias.
I came back one more time .. if you think there is any morality in occupation and genocide then you are in no position to lecture anybody about what's right and what's wrong
The world needs more minds like Sam Harris'
Thank you @samharris for so clearly helping think through these horrible events and putting them in context. It’s an amazing gift that you share and it brings a lot of light and positivity to the world.
You have left some very important facts out like: siege of Gaza( concentration camp), Isrels Zionistic expansion over Palestinian territory against Internatioanl Law and cleansing of that territory, regular attacs on Palestinians by ILLEGAL settlers, Israels refusal for two-state solution...
Still what Hamas did is a terrorist attack and it should be unequivocally condemed and we shoud unequivocally condemn Israel's occupation of Palestinian land and apartheid commited against Palestinians.
If your moral compass is attuned to the suffering of only one side, your compass is broken, and so is your humanity.
It's worse than that. The propaganda and disinformation war is particularly unbalanced and there are many well-meaning people with a broken moral compass who a lol low themselves to be manipulated by that propaganda.
Remember the charity television advertisements that user you cloy at your heartstrings by showing you horrifically pitiful images of "children starving in Africa?". That was for a good cause, but it was sensationalist propaganda. Now combine that with a bewildering web of lies and exaggeration and show it to people with a broken 'moral compass, as you say. That's where the Palestinian cause and it's Tehran puppeteers have come to.
Sam is a very reasonable person, in general. his political statements, however, are very naive. What he calls here "Israel has a more civilized moral code" could be easily translated as "Israel has one of the most powerful armies in the world". why take human shields if you have a real anti-bomb shield, right? And bombs. and planes. And power. And allies. Anyway. It's a shame because other than politics, Sam seems to be right about almost everything and he is clearly a positive force in the universe.
It's his refusal to accept that some things are political that undermines his thinking on other issues though.
@@360tailslidfaceplant my feeling is that Sam and other people from rich countries tend to disconsider the difference between an academical debate and a debate/clash that evolves life and death situations. it's hard to be "civilized" when you are treated like an animal. The key is the material conditions, mainly, not the ideas as isolated elements. Sam, aparently, doesn't understand this.
@@danielkraucher6864 I completely agree with you. But he comes at other issues the same way, like police brutality in America for example.
He’s cynical not naive IMHO
The fact that Israel has a powerful army actually REINFORCES the point that they have a more evolved ethic, because if they wanted, every Palestinian would be dead now. In contrast, if Hamas had the same power, all Jews in Israel WOULD in fact be dead. Sam has made this exact point. It's also inconceivable to me that if Israel didn't have a powerful army, that would necessarily mean they needed to resort to attacking from behind their innocent women and children... unfortunately this is the kind of apologism that tries to justify Islamist terrorism that is often made.
Thank you Sam for saying so eloquently what the truth of the problem . Hope for a peaceful turn away from extremism and deescalation of violence
It’s what we already know, feel deeply in our bones. Sam might, more often than not, be preaching to the choir; but while we can hum the tune, he knows the lyrics; indeed, has written them with perfect eloquence.
Well said
Ah, yes, the eloquence of the fanatic: He said he didn't care if Hunter Biden had "corpses of children in his basement"--he wanted a media coverup to defeat Trump
My friend this carries the same flavor as Sam's lyrics, beautiful.
🙏!
The choir is getting bigger. I am from Germany and have been following Sam's work since many years. I have often shared his online content and recommended or gifted his books. A frequent response: "Finally, some common sense". I wish more was translated into more languages.
Just a few years ago no one had ever heard of him. This has definitely changed. Also, it is not only about the size of the choir, but the people in it. I think a lot of people in positions of influence pay attention to him and there is a snowball effect that you would not be able to measure based on clicks or subscription numbers alone.
I find the choir analogy funny in this case. After all, it is a choir that values free and independent thinking. Maybe think of a Jazz jam session with some singing rather than a church choir.
an extremely one-sided approach to this... there is no moral right in war to begin with, and also this war DID NOT in fact start now... People go on and on about Hamas as if that justifies anything Israel does to Palestinians... well, guess what the West Bank exists without Hamas, but they're killed just and persecuted just as much! Also, a genocide takes many forms and controlling the natural resources that would allow basic human decency and livable conditions is certainly another form... Albeit, quieter so the world would judge it less. I AM NOT pro-Hamas and would never be, but I'd never support the Israeli Zionist government either. It's just crazy that British, US, German nationals... have birthright(?!) trips and Palestinians cannot be free on the land they were born. So yes, more than enough research has shown that more violence and suppression gives way to more crimes... Maybe a couple of megalomaniacs started Hamas, but its core body, those simple men that enlist are mostly regular people and WE HAVE TO wonder what they lost in their lives in order to do these acts. Sth similar should be asked about all those israeli soldiers and policemen who dehumanize and kill Palestinians on a regular basis as well though.
Does Islam "inspire more violence" than Christianity, or capitalism?
Sam, a country can not maintain an apartheid system for decades and not expect that it will always go smoothly. Israel has made that choice for decades and they've vilified and demonized anyone that tried to persuade them otherwise.
Can you argue with any of that?
With that in mind, consider a nation that does maintain an apartheid for decades, yet expects to be able to have things like "music festivals", and still expects such things to always go smoothly.
Now consider that our own nation, the USA, supported this apartheid system all this time. 9/11 didn't teach us anything. Things do not always go the way you want. If you abuse someone long enough, they may strike back. It's just that simple.
I do not expect the Palestinians to survive this. None of them. This action of theirs has a sense of finality around it. I doubt that even THEY expect to survive this. After decades of being shut out of the process, by nations that claim to be democratic, maybe they felt that they had no choice. Maybe they felt that it would be better to die, as long as dying meant that they could take some portion of their enemies with them.
I see your attempt to frame people who disagree with you as false equivalency, but your theoretical situation at 10:27 is also a false equivalency. Israel would never have to use their own people as human shields. They are far more powerful and they have powerful allies.
As far as your notion that the Israeli government does not want to massacre the Palestinians, I would suggest that you haven't been paying attention. Netanyahu has just been impatiently waiting for an excuse, because the collective Israeli wish that the Palestinians would just starve to death already has been a real drag for him.
Welcome back to planet earth Sam. It's been a while. With you fully on this.
People are fighting over magical rocks and supernatural olive trees in an otherwise barren desert. Thanks Religion!
Some people are trying to expand their borders to those of a fictitious realm of three thousand years ago. Others want their homes back.
It's good to know that those that can think can see the picture as it is. Your support is appreciated, Sam.
I trust you, and so I listened to your message and it changed my thinking. Thank you.
When it comes to this topic Sam is as dense as Osmium. When he talks about ethics he stops short of discussing the history of the conflict and of the occupation. Him talking about war crimes on the Israeli side being an exception rather than the rule is laughable nonsense!
@@alexhoffmanjazzbut I guess you do?
The clarity we all need.
"The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] *but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence.* Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do." -- Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
Also: it had better ideas.
@@ovariantrolley2327 All it ever had was divide and rule.
There is a little imperialust hiding behind every chest-thumping superiority-oozing comment.
Reply...
In each location that Western Nations went people flocked. Native people flocked to the trading posts that the British set up in India and in Africa. They brought medicine, mechanical technology, modern knowledge of math and science, enlightened ideas of human value, and ultimately were the root from which the abolition of slavery stemmed. The European spread across the world was a spectacular advance for indigenous people. The life expectancy of indigenous people went up, maternal and infant mortality went down, people who were oppressed by violent warlords were able to economically engage and education began to flourish. To further prove the point, after the withdrawal of Europe, colonial Powers from Africa Aunt South Asia, were people from Europe trying to go to South Asia More for people from South Asia and Africa trying to go to Europe? Europe is filled with the people from its former colonies because the former colonies were such spectacular places to live compared with uncolonized places. This used to be common knowledge but has been erased by modern Marxism.
@@MrJustonce123 "Do-goodism" is not the point.
What lurks beyond "do-goodism" is the ulterior motive.
I like how having border check points on a border that isn't legally a border and a blockade on a place that isnt legally considered another country isn't occupation.
👍
Uh, why WOULDN'T you have all that if the rulers of the other country want to wipe you out, and state such plainly in their charter?
Ask yourself why they have them.
Because the Palestinians keep committing jihadi suicide attacks.
It literally isn't. Occupying something means actually being there. You can argue that it's bad, but at least know what words mean before you use them.
Thank you Sam for helping me get my mind back on track.
Thank you so much for making this podcast.
Two points to clarify: there is reputable evidence that the IDF does target civilians and that the IDF has at times used human shield. I agree Hamas is worse. But I don’t think the IDF takes as great care to save innocent lives as Sam seems to think here.
Your evidence please. Liar.
Where are you getting this "reputable evidence" in the middle of an ongoing war. Do you work within the Israeli intelligence services?
Funny, my work as a historian has always shown me that such information is simply not available during wartime. We always have to go digging it up to correct the narratives of events once wars are over. And yet you have better information already. We should definitely make you chair of a research department right away with these impressive skills of discovery
@@RobespierreThePoof My comment is 6 months old and was responding to Sam's views on the IDF's past conduct. I was not commenting on the ongoing war.
The asymmetry we see in tactics is due to an asymmetry of power. Using your own people as human shields is reprehensible, and what Hamas has done cannot be rationally defended. But it can be put into context. This kind of tactic is one that is used by those who have far less power than their opposition. They're actually hoping for an overreaction from the opposition, so that the overreaction can be used as evidence that their opposition is humane. What they are doing is at least as much about guerrilla warfare as it is about jihad.
The Israeli government has issued a warning to the Palestinians in Gaza with an evacuation order where about a million people are supposed to evacuate in 24 hrs. I don't think this is a reasonable order, and think it's likely that the only reason such warnings are given is that the rest of the world is watching.
If Israel were not an apartheid state that heavily persecutes the Palestinians, Hamas would probably have little support from the broader Palestinian community. I think as it is, they only have about 30% support, though I haven't checked into that figure. Desperate people do desperate things. I certainly wouldn't say religion has nothing to do with what's going on there, but it's not the base issue here.
Let's not broad brush the Palestinians. And, of course, folks shouldn't broad brush the Israelis either. There's a spectrum of folks in Israel ranging from those who want to absolutely exterminate all Palestinians to those who understand that the persecution of Palestinians needs to stop.
Yes, intentions matter. I strongly doubt most Palestinians intended for this to happen. I also suspect Israeli forces won't be so careful about minimizing collateral damage.
Let's not try to dumb down what's going on there.
So you essentially reject 10:25 to 10:59. You believe that if their roles were swapped, power included, then Palestine would NOT eradicate Israel?
@@anjofa7 I certainly don't think ALL Palestinians would wipe out ALL of Israel, and I doubt most would. There was a time before the establishment of the modern State of Israel where Palestians and Jews co-existed well enough.
And as far as Palestinians today who would want to eliminate Israel, some of that is going to be a reaction to how they've been treated to Israel in a way similar to how black racism against whites is often a reaction of the racism they've experienced from whites. I think there's also different meanings to the idea of wiping out the Israeli state. Many folks, including Palestinians believe that that region should not have a state named Israel where non-jews are second class citizens at most. They might be ok with a state named in a matter that doesn't favor Jewish folks and that represents Jews, Arabs, etc equally. Of course, I'm quite sure you can find Palestinians who would be happy to exterminate all Jews. But keep in mind that this is a complex continuum. Let's not try to dumb this down, so that we can make easy but simplistically inaccurate judgments about who the good guys and bad guys are.
@@anjofa7 Also, to be extra nitpicky, in that time span, Harris mentions Hamas rather than Palestinians as a whole.
@@rowdyriemer ok but do have a response to my question?
“Desperate people do desperate things”
Maybe, but not like this (necessarily).
The Kurds experienced everything the Palestinians have - and far far worse - the Kurds have committed acts of terrorism, but never like this and, more critically, never with such joy. The Kurds don’t celebrate the deaths of Turks or Iraqi Arabs with joy and fireworks and sweets.
The Irish were under brutal occupation for 800 years! The Irish of course committed terrorism, but it’s main focus was always military - and even then - Irish people didn’t dance in the streets of Dublin and Cork. One of the worst terror attacks of the Troubles, the Le Mons restaurant bombing, the very next day, the IRA apologized for it and said they never intended to kill and harm that many civilians. The worst excesses of Irish terrorism caused a loss in popular support among the Irish populace, not celebrations.
During apartheid-era S. Africa, the ANC famously avoided terrorism against white south africans, the ANC made a deliberate decision not to kill white south African civilians.
Implicit in your statement is that if any of us faced the hardship and oppression the Palestinians have faced, we would or could act the same.
But I cannot imagine ever murdering a baby, or being happy a baby was killed, I could never imagine bludgeoning a wounded farm worker to death with a hoe or be happy upon seeing the deed done. We have too many examples of oppressed peoples not succumbing to this level of barbarity.
In 1929 there were Palestinian riots which were eerily similar to the current Gaza war, with Jewish infants and toddlers being butchered, women raped, men castrated & killed, etc.
This was long before apartheid or mass dispossession and certainly long before Gaza was made an “open air prison” for nearly 2 decades.
So why was the brutality exactly the same? I understand by 1929 there was already a Zionist movement and Arabs feared the loss of Palestine and that would explain the nationalist fervor. However, if the level of brutality we have seen over the past few days is a product of 75 or 50 years of constant and systemic repression, shouldn’t what occurred before all that been less barbarous?
And the children strapped with bombs phenomenon was used in Vietnam too, not just Iraq. I wonder if Islam also had something to do with it.
He didn't single Islam out specifically, to prove this particular point. He's simply stating that moral progress happens, and needs to be protected from people who are pathologically confused.
@@HTtwentyten Absolutely. Too bad the US helped create al qaeda and allowed them to enter Iraq en masse. Unspeakable evil.
Thank you for this dose of sanity.
Sam Harris has argued that feeling anger or seeking revenge against a murderer is as pointless as harbouring those same feelings toward a bear or a hurricane that has killed a loved one, since in his view, all are simply acting according to their nature and circumstances beyond their control. This suggests a philosophy of detachment from retributive emotions and actions. However, he appears to hold a contrasting view when it comes to Israel's right to wipe out Hamas terrorists, even when such actions have resulted in the deaths of thousands of children as collateral damage. I find it challenging to reconcile these two positions, where he discourages personal vengeance yet appears to justify large-scale retaliation.
I think there is an element of, we must do this to survive, from everyone evolved.
You don’t have to hate someone or something to realize it’s destructive path. I would not feel hate towards a murderer, but I would still feel deeply that society should be protected from him.
Very sloppy analogy. Thats always the truly with analogies, you know.
Yeah this critique doesn’t hold up to even the most surface level amount of scrutiny.
Here he goes again, didn’t he try this with Noam Chomsky.
At what Point did Israel take the high moral ground :
- was it when they perpetuated the first Nakba in 1947/48
- when they took illegal control of the West Bank and Gaza Strip
- when The UN and other humanitarian groups proclaimed Israel an Apartheid state
- they’re policies have contributed to over 90% of the casualties between Israel and Palestine, arePalestinian .
Et, etc,
Sam argues in a vacuum and becomes completelyAhistorical in regards to this Middle East crisis that has played out over 75 years.
How can anyone attempt to prioritise the death of innocent children of Israel as barbaric, and diminish the deaths of innocent Palestinians as collateral damage.
They are both morally equivalent and repugnant.
Sam has the luxury of living in the US where the depravities of the US, throughout the rest of the world since 1945, are somehow forgiven and largely forgotten.
The US has no moral high ground, their war crimes were shown by Assange, now he rots in a prison.
Sam lives under the protection of an Empire that never has to pay for its crimes of humanity, and somehow he takes the moral high ground.
🧐😬🤢🤮
First Nakba, second Nakba. BS. If you guys didn’t attack Israel the very first day of partition trying to throw Israel to the sea nothing would happen. It matters who attacks first. Hitler’s Germany attacked Stalin’s USSR. Both were terrible totalitarian states. But Germany got all the blame because it attacked first. Now. Throw out of your hearts the idea to drive Israel to the sea. No matter what Quran or Hadith says. these are just old books not to be taken seriously.
This couldn't have been said in a better way. Thanks.
Thank you from Karmiel in the Galilee. We are so used to initial support for defending ourselves that lasts for a day or two and then it all evaporates after a couple of days, or perhaps a couple of weeks. However, this time, the outrage, hurt, and sheer numbers of the dead and how they died is so great, I don’t think we can afford to stop until Hamas is dismantled. And if the general assembly of the UN, & the security council (including Russia), the useful idiots in the EU, and the rest condemn us, so be it.
But it would be nice for a change if at least part of the Western world had a smidgeon of the integrity of my grandfather’s generation who understood evil when they saw it and fought it in WWII.
Why are we worrying about Hamas when Israel just bombed a hospital?
I know right just like UA blew up their own POWs lol so many m0r0ns so little time. But hey yeah HAMAS apologists "you leave the bombing of hospitals and random innocent civilians to us!!!"
Very well said Sam. I hope the right people hear it.
This is the single best thing that could have been said about the subject right now. Brilliantly explained.
Someone else who obviously doesn’t have a clue
@@ibntulun9405 And you do? 😂😂😂😂😂
@@GSDKXV He was holding a little mirror up as he typed that, so it all holds up.
@@GSDKXV "😂😂😂😂😂" Well... yes. I have a clue.
I agree "moral equivalence" is a danger.
I think "black vs white" is also a slippery slope.
It's more of a cliff than a slippery slope..
This entire video is sophistry and war propaganda.
Its quite clearly not black vs white. It's dark gray vs a slightly lighter shade of gray. No one is coming out of this looking like moral superstars but there's significant daylight between the intentions of Hamas and the depths of depravity they are willing to go vs Israel. I think it's quite possible to not like either side here and still recognize that they're playing on different fields and by different rule books.
@@willr8768 I have no dog in this fight and could not care less who "wins." That said, it's easy to paint yourself as the morally superior when technology is on your side. The way Hamas produces casualties is the ONLY way they can produce these casualties because they are so outgunned by the other side. One side of this conflict has homemade rockets that are little more than fireworks along with small arms while the other side has fighter and bomber jets, tanks, drones and other military hardware provided free of charge by the US.
It's easy to paint the little guy as moral monsters because they have such a graphic way of producing the very same results as the other side. Take a look at the footage coming out of Gaza. Those people are just as injured and just as dead and just as much civilians.
You're right, it's hard to imagine the Israeli's making themselves available as human shields because they have not been an occupied people living in horrid conditions. I know you pretend occupation of Gaza ended in 2005, but the UN and many humanitarian orgs don't agree because of the severe blockades that Israel imposes. Try imagining living in one of the most densely populated places on earth (~21,000 people per square mile), 45%+ unemployment, and most all of your resources controlled by your "non-occupier". What might you stoop to when there is nothing to loose?
Been waiting for Sam to say something. Thanks Sam. You’re a beacon of reason and sanity.
who is more cowardly? the weaker team that uses girillia and terror warfare or the team that is superior that uses unnatural and inhuman advanced tech to avoid having to steep down to the filthy peasants on the battlefield and in the mobs, but can just sit in their furnished bunkers and send drones to do their dirty work or to paralyse humans through the threat of godlike violence?
Comparing the carnage perpetrated by both sides and pointing out, that Israelis would never use their own citizens as human shields, and that this is proof of how much more monstrous Hamas is, conveniently ignores other important facts, or glosses over them. It’s only part of the story and it’s framed this way because of cognitive dissonance. This makes it difficult in having a wider, more objective view of this conflict. Biases run rampant when it comes to people articulating their thoughts on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Yes, it was a terrorist attack by Hamas. What many people including pundits find difficult most of all, is asking what has created and perpetuated the monstrosities being carried out? The question doesn't get asked for obvious reasons. When it does get raised, it’s quickly rationalised by pointing out that regardless of what causes these monstrosities, they’re never justified. This rationale exists because of how difficult it is to accept atrocities having causes, but it doesn't mean they don’t exist, or that they can’t be responsible for them. To reiterate, “yes” the Hamas attack was an act of terror. Decades of abuse creates victims and monsters causing endless loops of suffering. It’s profoundly sad, as reality often is.
You are generalizing the sins of extremists on a whole population. Remember, revenge will beget revenge and until you look for a real solution, the cycle will sadly continue.
I've been estranged from you for a long time, Sam - mostly due to my libertarian sensibilities. However, at times like this, I'm reminded that there is no greater speaker on the ethical differences in warfare than you. Thank you for this excellent monologue. Oh... and.... uh...... I miss you.
LOL. You sound like an emotional sycophant that read a bad translation of Baudelaire.
Pro Palestine people feel like you did about Sam's criticism of Trump
@@Thisisahandle701 They feel like he's mostly correct but won't shut up about it? I think you missed the mark on me, pumpkin.
And yet nothing on the occupation, theft of land and systematic brutlaisation of an entire people and started it all off by blaming Islam (again). I agree with much of what Sam says but he has never, whenever he has spoken on this issue, just accepted that israel is in breach of countless un resolutions and that the Palestinian people deserve a just outcome after 80 years of shit. If only he could just acknowledge that, hed gain so much more credibility when he speaks on this issue.
He is Jewish.
I'm happy, Sam, how directly and eloquently you talk about this topic. A lot of this should just be common sense. Maybe all of it.
Mr. President...wow! An honor to run into you here, sir.
I have been watching Sam Harris videos on RUclips for 12+ years and i have read The end of faith, and Free Will, great books.
He started to lose me when he aligned with the whole IDW thing, and also how gentle he was on Jordan Peterson in their debates which isn't something i've seen him do 10 years ago.
I never thought of him as islamophobe as he was pointing out certain things that were central to radical Islam or even regular islam.
However, to see him now just say that Israel is a lonely outpost of democracy in the middle east, when what they are actually doing is ethnically cleansing and preparing to anex the rest of the Palestine as is obvious to anyone who glances at the map over time.
Even if you think that Islam is a violent and net negative religion, advocating eradication is never the right way to go.
ps. he also got trolled on the whole alien revelation thing by "super secret alien guy" and that sort of made it pretty clear to me, people can be right about certain things, even experts....yet be completely idiotic on other things, but the whole israel thing is just downright evil.
Agree, it is astonishing how a rational person can be so completely blind and biased. A scientist would start with numbers: 10,000 Palestinians dead, 1,400 Israelis killed. With this fact at hand, the analysis of assigning blame becomes impossible. Israel is the most powerful in the region and therefore must take the lead towards peace.
@@dollarette peace is irrelevant, cleansing the holy land was always the goal only an idiot/piece of shit zionist cant see that. It appears Sam is the latter.
Lol you really haven't a single clue. Hamas is literally telling (and showing) the world what their intentions are yet you lot don't even believe them!
If Hamas paid down their weapons tomorrow they would have a state. If Israel laid down there weapons tomorrow there would be no Israel.
What is Israel to do? 🤔
@@dollaretteUtterly stupid. You have understood nothing. Did Israel intentionally kill those people? Has Hamas no responsibility? This is like arguing with small children.
The voice of reason has spoken. Thank you Sam!
Reason needs no prophet and speaks for itself!
@@thetobyg Reason doesn't speak, it's a cognitive process that should be expressed into words so our own beliefs can be challenged.
Thanks for holding the line on truth even when it’s inconvenient or goes against the mainstream
Which mainstream are you talking about?
US and Israel, truly the underdogs here lol
@@notafantbhI interact with a lot of normies, most of them twist themselves into pretzels defending the terrorist Hamas.
Thank you Sam for this well reasoned, clear and enlightening description of false moral equivalence.
Sam left out a major fact, not all Palestinian are Muslim, some are actually Christian. The media is focused only on Hamas and it's henious acts. Which yes, a majority (53% per last poll in 2021) of Palestinian in Gaza support, but most likely out of choice and desperation that has turned into hate. Israel has de facto created an aparatheid state full of hate and racism. Looking at the number of civilian casualties on both sides since 2008 to September 2023 there were 20x more Palestinian casualties, 6407 vs 308 reported by OCHA. I condone acts of terrorists and war crimes but painting it as if its the west value vs Muslim value is really what Israel wants us to believe. It's a distorted view of the conflict that's been waging for decades. Palestinians have been suffering the most humiliating and unfair treatment both by Israel and the west. How would you feel if armed man came into your house at night to force you out of your house by force and give it away to some strangers because once upon a time this land belonged to them? Something that current generations of Palestinians have nothing to do with. Is that the kind of world you stand for? A world were hate dictates what is right and wrong? Israel must change its behaviour and make amends to find stability and peace in the region as the most powerful side. Solutions have been put on the table for decades but neither side has really made the effort to make it happen, due to greed, self interrest and corruption - both economic and moral. The claim that Israel could at any moment have caused a genocide but hasn't is absurd, it's in its own interest to keep this conflict alive so that it can keep getting support and money from Washington in order for it to survive in the hostile environment it keeps nurturing in order to take over all the Palestinian land.
p.s. Might have left out some facts and key points, but I'm in no way comparing the atrocities perpetuated by both sides.
Not all Palestinians are Palestinians, they are Arabs from Syria, Egypt, Jordan, etc.etc..! Palestinians are fake ethnic group that forces it’s self into Israel!!!
Israel gained independence just like Pakistan; Palestinians had the same opportunity to be independent yet they would rather go to war with Israel than live in peace.
Not all “Palestinians” are Muslims, not all are Christian, not all are atheists or straight 😂. How would you you like to be killed by Muslims in the middle of the night for being yourself???
So wise, and much needed. Thank you.
Thank you Sam very well said. I am always amazed at your ability to put into words the feeling and emotions and the truth of situations like this. All the best to you and yours.
@samharrisorg Hi Sam, I do agree that intentions matter. Can you then explain the intentions behind Israel's continued support of West Bank settlements, which are war crimes under Article 8 (2) (b) (viii) of the Rome Statute?
Oops, someone with a logical mind and some integrity. That's a bit awkward.
Sam has said that he is absolutely against the settlements on many occasions.
@@JashariRilind Great, I have never heard it, but this is not the point. I am not saying he is for the settlements, but how can he explain the motivation. How do the settlements fit with his narrative that Israel just wants to live peacefully with Palestinians?
@@fialeks That is a very valid point and I also made it on a comment under this Video. I do not think the Israeli government has any honest intentions have peace with the palestinians.
Taking the lives of helpless children is wrong and no amount of mental gymnastics will ever make it right.
So what would you suggest be done? Global caliphate?
@@BowzKnowseducation? Lol
@@Cloveis always the best solution but might be last that for now but going forward for sure!
Interesting that you (and many others) mention the "children" who are killed. Almost as if you've bought into propaganda.
@@BowzKnows
Israel has special forces, one of the best military forces in the Middle East, one of the best intelligent agencies in the world........
Why Don't they do special operations and stop indiscriminately killing those babies......
If their army can kill babies then there is no need for having those special forces.........
Secondly, if israel should stop acting like an apartheid, genocidal, and rogue state and should stop interventions in the middle east, then we might reach a peaceful middle east
Yes ..... a lot of truth in what you say Sam but we must realise that the anger of the Palestinians is off the scale for the horrendous injustices they have suffered. This has led to all this madness.
I think you can expect people to become animals when you keep them in an open air prison for decades. We need a real solution in this region of the world. While I am sure there is overlap, not all Palestinians are in Hamas.
There was a point in very recent history that there was no military blockade at that border, and Israelis lived under constant threat of bus bombings, wedding bombings, pizzeria bombings, stabbings, kidnappings, rocket fire etc. So now there's a blockade for good reason. Hamas has genocidal aspirations, it says so in their charter and after their most recent attack, it should be obvious.
Also noteworthy, many Palistinians hold work visas and cross that border daily to make money for their families because there is little economic opportunity under Hamas. The prison analogy breaks down there. I grant that other aspects (Isrsel controlling electricity, supply lines) are more befiting of the analogy, but at a certain point, after thousands of years of slaughter by outsiders and being surrounded by a sea of Arab nations who have repeatedly attacked - you can understand why there is a need for unusual security measures at Israel's borders.
You are confusing two things. Yes, Israel has basically locked up Gaza by building walls and checkpoints. In effect locked the Palestinians in an air prison to mitigate terrorist attacks. But the blockade has nothing to do with it. The blockade controls what comes in to Gaza at the mercy of Israel. That means little to no medicine, little to no UN supplies and absolutely no trade. I think this is what OP meant.
@@arete_ when all the supplies or trade is used to purchase weapons and plan attacks.... what then?
@@arete_ it's worth noting that Gaza borders Egypt as well... that aside - there really is no alternative that I can see when the ruling party of a neighboring state has as its sole mission your destruction. The point you make is valid, how limiting it is to live behind a military blockade, but unless Hamas is removed from power its the only way to keep Israelis safe.
Thanks Sam, this is exactly what I was trying to explain to a very confused person yesterday. If we don't understand the evident asymmetry in the level of human development and culture between an Israeli soldier and a Hamas terrorist we will never know who to watch out for.
It's not only you saying/reckoning this.
“Culture is the root of politics,
and religion is the root of culture.”
- Richard John Neuhaus
@@frankgradus9474 I would say that at the basis of religion there is the capacity for transcendence and at the basis of the capacity for transcendence there are healthy cognitive faculties. Certain dogmatic religions not only do not accompany healthy cognitive and emotional development, but they completely preclude it.
@@marcellalog2236 I thorougly agree.
@@marcellalog2236 I'll also add:
עם ישראל חי
Does anyone else think that history might shed some light on the behavior of Hamas and Israel?
ruclips.net/video/6foH3Zc82ZQ/видео.htmlsi=Zx92HHBDXV55257S
How does an open atheist use the word Sin in a discussion about Morality in this context? Draw your own conclusions!
Secular sin just refers to horrendous acts and boggle moral consciousness.
Thank you for a sane, common sense view on this savagery.
Thank you for putting it in logical words
--Imagine being born in the US and saying "not all cultures have the same ethics around the application of violence." And then in the same breath conflating different Islamic fundamentalist factions and proceeding to demonize them as a homogenous group. All the while speaking in a way to conflate the fundamentalists with Islam at large.
--In this audio clip Sam Harris himself is standing at the bottom of the Grand Canyon, in the middle of a Monty Python sketch, unable to recognize himself as the butt of the joke.
I strongly disagree with his underlying assertion that there is something fundamentally different about “people and cultures” who, in his example, celebrate barbarism or “revel in war crimes”
It seems obvious to me that the Palestinian people from Gaza have had their culture and worldview completely shaped by what has been done to them.
Jihadism doesn’t arise out of nowhere. It arises from persecution and inequality.
He speaks to “maintaining the moral progress of civilization.” Where is that moral progress when thousands of innocent children are being slaughtered? Where is the concern for war crimes that Israel is currently perpetrating?
Yes, the use of human shields is despicable. The violence done by Hamas is despicable. As is the violence being done by Israel.
There’s a difference between collateral damage and intentional murder? I disagree. I strongly disagree. He’s sweeping aside the deaths of equally innocent human beings as “less bad” than the deaths of the festival attendees. They are not. All death created by violence are equally tragic.
All I’m hearing are excuses and dehumanization of the Palestinians. Calling the Middle East a “moral wasteland” is disgusting. And he says it in the same breath as excusing any future war crimes Israel might commit? Come on.
He says that collateral damage in regrettable and unwanted? At this stage in the conflict, I truly doubt that can be said.
For all the incredible might of the American military, all of the advanced weaponry that we have shared with Israel, I very much doubt that wholesale slaughter is the best that can be done.
I'm a Sam Harris fanatic, and I love how you approach this so rationally. I get what you're getting to with regards to the moral grounds here. And I won't ever say it's okay to put your own people at the stake for the goal of invoking an enemy's response. Radical Islamic groups are not okay, especially if a future is to built upon its values. I'm not super academic and knowledgeable about politics and philosophy. But I am a South African who has experienced the ramifications of Apartheid and still see on a daily basis how people are still trying to fight for a freedom long thought to have been "won". I know my experience doesn't even come close to the Palestinians' daily reality, but I can attempt to empathize.
It's important to consider that Israel isn't at the point of having to put their own people in the middle of the battlefield...they have the US and most of the West on their side and if they ever get to this point, then their ancient religious ways (which isn't far different from Islamic radicalist groups, might surface and we'll see the same thing or even worse- the so-called "Christian" nations with their values won't think twice before killing and slaughtering)...Palestine on the other side has nothing. Hamas is fighting for its people to the end of freeing them from Israel who forcefully took their land from them, not for purposes of horror.
Yet you seem to claim that the "progressive western values" can be seen in Israel's approach to all this. But most of the West is built upon slaughtering of innocent people to get what they want (not need).
Palestine has nothing else left to do. I am sure most Palestines also don't fully agree with Hamas' ways, but at least someone is standing up for them. No other nation is standing up for them, so how else should you engage in conflict with a Western backed enemy? It's easy to make moral judgments if it's not your country being stolen from under your feet. What should Palestine do? Engage in discussions with the other side? That hasn't worked yet...and why should they ask for something that was stolen from them in the first place?
If the Bully at school and all his older friends at school keep traumatizing and abusing me and takes things that are mine and indignifies me and comes into my home, no, takes my home and everything i know on a daily basis, it would be best to just turn the cheek and ask them nicely to stop? Or would it be better to get my big brother (whose views on peace and love might not be the same as mine) to step in and help? It will obviously lead to a fight. Palestine isn't just standing up against Israel. This nation is standing up against a barbaric West and Hamas is the big brother.
Slaughter seems to be okay if it comes from the West, but not okay if the other side is doing it. It would be nice if Palestine had the power of other nations behind it to at least peacefully come to terms with this "nation", Israel. Hamas' provoked actions are not desired. Better ways of doing this could be thought of...but for how long will the nations of the world with all its power and "morality" just sit and watch how the Palestinians and their cultures and beauty are slowly but surely being removed from this Earth? THAT is more evil than what Hamas is doing.
Western sanctimonious disposition is the newest form of radical evil in this world.
It's a new moral ground.
I see zero objective quality to these analyses. To be clear--Hamas is very much a terrorist group but Israel and the powers that be are terrorist nations. Pick your side-they all commit violent and horrific atrocities. The clear difference is the rhetoric used. "western" nations are on the "right side" of history because they are writing it and we live in a west thus that's what we will see. Being someone who follows Sam Harris, Daniel Dennet, Chris Hitchens, etc. I thought I'd get some real objectivity, but I was sadly mistaken.
You are delusional to think at least half the Palestinians don't support Hamas. Absolutely clueless.
I didn't say anything about how many palestinians support hamas. Whether 50% or 80% or 90% support hamas, you're claiming it's okay to commit war crimes. Ugly stance youre taking there. You're just putting words in my mouth and not addressing the fact that both sides are guilty except one boasts massive power while the other has their electricity water and movement restricted. I feel bad for you and I hope one day you grow a heart that's not just for the people that look like you
@@deeky1239
100 Percent…..I live in the West and I am ashamed…..
Relations of power, that is, who has it and who doesn't. are what matters. Your comment is among the few that address that fact. I find it most interesting that Sam Harris doesn't bother to address this point and instead frames his argument in terms of good versus evil. I find it puzzling that someone as intelligent as Sam Harris seems to avoid mentioning power relations in not only this podcast but in others such as his recent discussion with David Brooks and his Climate change podcast as well. Actually I find the omission quite revealing.
"If we recognize the monstrosities of the past, we surely must recognize the monstrosities of the present." One problem, of course, is that many still refuse to recognize the monstrosities of the past. In fact, they're busy making sure their own culture's monstrosities are glossed over or completely ignored in history classes. People will always be eager to acknowledge the monstrosities of others.
The “monstrosity” is an evolutionary feature encoded in our dna for times of extreme desperation. We in the west have the luxury of not have dealing with this “monstrosity” feature since ww2.
So let's recreate the monstrosities, but with the roles reversed, because that's justice, folks. Neanderthal wisdom.
If you're referring to 1948, check back what happened in 1929. The Jews didn't start this.
I want to be Sam Harris in my next life. As usual, you speak the truth so eloquently and powerfully. Thank you Sam
Too bad Sam doesn't believe in a next life.
You don't want to be Sam Harris. I've already been there. The world loses it's color and everything turns to legos.
@@agookchild , living in LEGO city sounds pretty cool actually.
@@HR-yd5ib it is for 30 minutes, but everything tastes like plastic.
@@agookchild ... LOL ... yes ... somehow assumed to be a LEGO figure living there ;-)
Thank you Sam. Your words and wisdom and you manner of speaking has brought a calmness to my thundering heart and perturbed mind. Thank you.
Thanks Sam, I hope you do a full episode soon, like the "can we pull back from the brink" in 2020
That is one of my favourite podcast episodes on any topic.
A certain dynamic that you need to see sam.
You say Israelis would never use their people as human shields , yet Palestinians would never bully others and try to subjigate them.
This is the dynamic of the bully and its victim, the bully has an insecurity which he fills by humiliating his victim and provoking a response.
This response he then uses as excuse to further put down (kill/deport) his victim.
At all times he has a false sense of security that he wants to keep through bullying and in that sense you are right that Israel doesn't want to have much losses, its the victim that is ready to lose more in order to get rid of his bully due to the depravity, hatred and desperation that he is in .
And in that sense the bully creates the terrorist.
You think Israel really wants to get rid of hamas?
They may want to hit them hard but they will still keep them because that keeps them fed with the sense of superiority, killing would just relif the suffering but they want to make them suffer as much a possible, maybe to make them feel like how they had suffered during history.
And in that sense the victim can turn also into the bully.
Israeli was a victim that became a bully to redeem itself.
I still believe this war might actually bring peace.
The bully continues to provoke since he doesn't expect much from his victim.
But when the victim responds in the most Unexpected and outragious way. The bully will give him a final hit, the hardest, but will be more hesitant to provoke another fight due to the hightened risk of losing his sense of security .
Your belief of a morality that is more superior than another is part of the problem as it denies that we all have to learn from one another.
Moral clarity. Thanks, Sam. I agree 100%.
Ah, yes, the moral clarity of the fanatic: He said he didn't care if Hunter Biden had "corpses of children in his basement"--he wanted a media coverup to defeat Trump.
It is not moral clarity to say Israeli violence is better than Hamas violence. Both are abhorrent. To say Israel is free from moral responsibility towards its neighbour and that the evil by Hamas is the only evil is not moral clarity but moral bankruptcy.
@@7king8debs79 That's not what Sam said, but a twisted biased parody or strawman distortion of what he said. You are effectively arguing against your own lies. Intellectual bankruptcy?
@rozzgrey8015 did you listen to the man's words? He effectively absolved Israeli of crimes against humanity. He connected evil only to Hamas and Islam. The slaughter of children is abhorrent WHOEVER does it. Harris gives Israel a free pass because of the Hamas tactics. I'm unsure where you believe there was a strawman argument. I listened to the man's rhetoric and didn't buy it.
@@7king8debs79So you agree with Sam then?
Your comment comparing the human Shields situation if Israel did it versus Hamas doing it really hit home. It speaks volumes