One thing I always thought of with mid set coaching is how do you regulate coaches communicating via text? Every player has the ability to check their phone after each game. “I’m just changing my song” while reading the text message “stop rolling at kill percent” lol
I always had a similar thought except with calls. "Music" could be the coach watching and assisting live. Something as subtle as talking about the match with friends and an active call going. It would leave a call/text history, but we'd have to get to the point of checking phones before/after matches. Which is a whole mess to propose in itself. Obviously I don't condone this behavior, but the thought remains.
Coaching not being allowed during sets is so crazy backwards. It goes against what often encapsulates the essence of a sport. In many sports the coaching is a highlight of the viewing experience.
@@kimeriksson7445 If you allowed coaching during sets it would cause sets to last longer, which would cause all sorts of problems for TOs (venue closing times, lower viewership, etc.)
My personal favorite meta is between two: right before quarantine during like G7/Frostbite 2020, or right after quarantine where Leo was playing Byleth, Spargo was shooting onto the scene, Gluto was starting to become a super top level player, Tweek was playing Diddy, etc.
I love how the foundies discussion demonstrates how the term itself is flawed and fundies/gimmick is a distinction created to make yourself feel better when you lose to a character you have no clue how to fight lol
Thank you, you elder god saint of a being. I knew that when I clicked this video that no one was going to be able to define fundies and was dreading having to watch 45 mins of people who fail to grasp even the basic principles of game theory try to tell me what "fundamentals" are. Now I don't have to waste my time.
@@bakedbuninvasion This is the craziest holier than thou comment I've ever seen. Why even click on the video if you 'dread' watching an imaginary outcome based on attributed qualities that you couldn't possibly know about?
@@RamsesEsports everyone and there mom says fundies in this community but not a single flipping person can actually define it when it is literally is probably the easiest thing you can define, but everyone is so caught up in huffing there own farts they can't take one second and look at what fundamentals look like in other games/sports. In case you need to be informed, it's controlling your character, knowing hitboxes and frame data, knowing the basic rps of the game (shield beats attack, attack beats grab, grab beats shield, dodge beats attack and grab but loses to waiting/shield, ect.) That's it. That is your fundamentals of play. Mind games and conditioning is not fundies, weird hitboxes are not inherently anti-fundies, and knowing every combo route and variants is also not fundies. Also most of my dread comes from people in the community actually listening to these idiots.
Fundies characters I think are much easier to define than was defined in the podcast. A fundies character is really just a simple character that has some niche tech but can be piloted pretty easily by anyone with a decent grasp on the fundamentals of smash without necessarily knowing all the combos and percents. A plug and play character. For that reason Fox does fit well into that category but Joker doesn’t. Joker doesn’t have the plug and play feel because you have to know how his specials work and utilizing some of his drag-downs. Characters like Lucas, Mewtwo, Wiifit are all specialized characters because you can’t just pick them and know how to deal with every matchup because they all have weird movesets. I think that is the big difference between fundies and specialist characters. While Wolf does have some pretty important combos, you could just spam fair and bair and do fairly well without always getting those true combos.
After seeing how many times Kurama parried Leo's Marth and Lucina aerials, I'm convinced fundies characters are gonna be less viable. Once you get used to the timings of these characters, things become too predictable.
I was expecting a video discussing the underwear for two called "Fundies," but after watching a bit of the video it turns out it's just about some video game. Gotta say I'm really disappointed, liked and subscribed keep up the great content guys!
"Fundies" characters are just basic. It's the same hollowness as calling a character "honest" when all that's really been described is blandness. Both terms are also inconsistently applied, rendering them mostly arbitrary.
The only thing that made pre nerf Pichu broken was the hurt box size. He was far too small and hard to hit to have that much kill power. They could have just increased hurt box size and left his back air loops and slightly nerf f-tilt and he would be a viable and balanced character.
I think NA players doing good at Kagaribi than previous events is cos they were able to get mid set coaching. Japanese are may more ignorant about coaching and i think that will ultimately make a difference.
Sometimes i think videogames coachs are a bit too optimistic about the ceiling of human precision. If you pick the the top players of the most relevant sports in the world, with huge money, huge data, huge training optimization they still make execution mistakes on the most fundamental aspects of the game, like shooting in basketball or making a simple pass in football. That argument that all players are mid is the same ppl spread about optimized melee bein 20XX, thats just maybe a shot in the dark about how realistic is consistent gameplay in Smash Bros. No matter how many players play Super Smash Bros Ultimate profissionaly, or how much money is on the scene, even with the natural technical progression, most of the meta would still rely on simple execution and plain flow charts than hiper tecnical never missing a combo Steve play, thats how top level sports work. High pressure human competition is always tricky. Never would be a player that never misses a zero to death string , the same way that the NBA field goal record is still 0.673.
The problem with fundies characters is that they don't have actual kill confirms. Characters such as Wolf, Palutena, Joker, and Aegis rely on smash attacks to kill, which isn't easy by any means.
Does Tony think human beings are robots? The game has been out for 5 years and you’re telling me much of the roster isn’t optimized. People drop combos because we don’t have perfect fingers, we don’t have perfect motor function, we don’t have perfect reflexes. This will always be a factor no matter how much a character is pushed to their limits. Not saying there isn’t room for improvement but some characters people point to being theoretically broken (like shulk) have yet to bring any significant results
@@Alphahunter456 Ad hom, cute. I never said I was good, all I’m saying is there’s a cap to proficiency and that doesn’t manifest in perfect play, because that isn’t possible. Players like Riddles are are so strong because he’s a lot more consistent in his inputs and situational awareness than other Kazuyas, but let’s not pretend that he can simply end a match in 30 seconds every match, thats not how it works.
Imo, characters like Palu, Wolf, and Luci are just going to progressively get worse as time goes on. In a game of win conditions, they just don't have any. (Believe me, I'm a Palu secondary, I know.)
Lol. I love tony. He's always smiling.
Tony be like 😁
One thing I always thought of with mid set coaching is how do you regulate coaches communicating via text? Every player has the ability to check their phone after each game.
“I’m just changing my song” while reading the text message “stop rolling at kill percent” lol
I always had a similar thought except with calls.
"Music" could be the coach watching and assisting live. Something as subtle as talking about the match with friends and an active call going. It would leave a call/text history, but we'd have to get to the point of checking phones before/after matches. Which is a whole mess to propose in itself.
Obviously I don't condone this behavior, but the thought remains.
@@Kyiros I never even considered just straight up having a conversation live in the headphones lmao
Great point.
Funny enough, it does occur, their are some top players using a phone call with their coach will playing the game
Coaching not being allowed during sets is so crazy backwards. It goes against what often encapsulates the essence of a sport.
In many sports the coaching is a highlight of the viewing experience.
@@kimeriksson7445 If you allowed coaching during sets it would cause sets to last longer, which would cause all sorts of problems for TOs (venue closing times, lower viewership, etc.)
This was a super thought-provoking episode, one of my favorites from you guys!!
My personal favorite meta is between two: right before quarantine during like G7/Frostbite 2020, or right after quarantine where Leo was playing Byleth, Spargo was shooting onto the scene, Gluto was starting to become a super top level player, Tweek was playing Diddy, etc.
Wah, coaches talks !
Veeeery interesting ! Insightful ! And original
Thanks for this gentleman!!! Great episode
Tony looking sharp as always
Fundies can’t be dying if they already been dead - Sun TSU the art of elite smash
jajajajaja don't get me started on that.
adapting to lag is fundamental playing online
As a fundies player, i can confirm
IMO the game’s funnest era was RIGHT before MinMin lol. Game felt fairly balanced LMAO
Like the 8.0 gimvitational era right?
I love how the foundies discussion demonstrates how the term itself is flawed and fundies/gimmick is a distinction created to make yourself feel better when you lose to a character you have no clue how to fight lol
Thank you, you elder god saint of a being. I knew that when I clicked this video that no one was going to be able to define fundies and was dreading having to watch 45 mins of people who fail to grasp even the basic principles of game theory try to tell me what "fundamentals" are. Now I don't have to waste my time.
@@bakedbuninvasion This is the craziest holier than thou comment I've ever seen. Why even click on the video if you 'dread' watching an imaginary outcome based on attributed qualities that you couldn't possibly know about?
@@RamsesEsports everyone and there mom says fundies in this community but not a single flipping person can actually define it when it is literally is probably the easiest thing you can define, but everyone is so caught up in huffing there own farts they can't take one second and look at what fundamentals look like in other games/sports.
In case you need to be informed, it's controlling your character, knowing hitboxes and frame data, knowing the basic rps of the game (shield beats attack, attack beats grab, grab beats shield, dodge beats attack and grab but loses to waiting/shield, ect.)
That's it. That is your fundamentals of play. Mind games and conditioning is not fundies, weird hitboxes are not inherently anti-fundies, and knowing every combo route and variants is also not fundies.
Also most of my dread comes from people in the community actually listening to these idiots.
@@bakedbuninvasion Actual troglodyte behaviour to an absurd degree. Please don't come back, thank you.
"Everyone and their Mom"
29:10 agree so much with Ramses' point here
"Im a tool" - Charles 2023
😂😂😂
Fundies characters I think are much easier to define than was defined in the podcast. A fundies character is really just a simple character that has some niche tech but can be piloted pretty easily by anyone with a decent grasp on the fundamentals of smash without necessarily knowing all the combos and percents. A plug and play character. For that reason Fox does fit well into that category but Joker doesn’t. Joker doesn’t have the plug and play feel because you have to know how his specials work and utilizing some of his drag-downs. Characters like Lucas, Mewtwo, Wiifit are all specialized characters because you can’t just pick them and know how to deal with every matchup because they all have weird movesets. I think that is the big difference between fundies and specialist characters. While Wolf does have some pretty important combos, you could just spam fair and bair and do fairly well without always getting those true combos.
After seeing how many times Kurama parried Leo's Marth and Lucina aerials, I'm convinced fundies characters are gonna be less viable. Once you get used to the timings of these characters, things become too predictable.
I was expecting a video discussing the underwear for two called "Fundies," but after watching a bit of the video it turns out it's just about some video game. Gotta say I'm really disappointed, liked and subscribed keep up the great content guys!
joker gun: what other characters create that similar scenario. not fundies
"Fundies" characters are just basic. It's the same hollowness as calling a character "honest" when all that's really been described is blandness. Both terms are also inconsistently applied, rendering them mostly arbitrary.
Wolf is so not basic at all
"Prepatch Pichu was fine, Void is just..."
My man, ftilt, that is frame 4, killed at 90%.
The only thing that made pre nerf Pichu broken was the hurt box size. He was far too small and hard to hit to have that much kill power. They could have just increased hurt box size and left his back air loops and slightly nerf f-tilt and he would be a viable and balanced character.
so?
Pichu wishes killing at 90 were special. Week 1 Wolf can fair bair you at 80
@@CarbonMalite wolf bair aint f4 on one of the fastest character tho
@@chalybee8689 F7 fair that's twice as large
I think NA players doing good at Kagaribi than previous events is cos they were able to get mid set coaching. Japanese are may more ignorant about coaching and i think that will ultimately make a difference.
this argument has been going on since street fighter 2 was succeeded by darkstalkers
Yup
Sometimes i think videogames coachs are a bit too optimistic about the ceiling of human precision. If you pick the the top players of the most relevant sports in the world, with huge money, huge data, huge training optimization they still make execution mistakes on the most fundamental aspects of the game, like shooting in basketball or making a simple pass in football. That argument that all players are mid is the same ppl spread about optimized melee bein 20XX, thats just maybe a shot in the dark about how realistic is consistent gameplay in Smash Bros. No matter how many players play Super Smash Bros Ultimate profissionaly, or how much money is on the scene, even with the natural technical progression, most of the meta would still rely on simple execution and plain flow charts than hiper tecnical never missing a combo Steve play, thats how top level sports work. High pressure human competition is always tricky. Never would be a player that never misses a zero to death string , the same way that the NBA field goal record is still 0.673.
Funsies > fundies
The problem with fundies characters is that they don't have actual kill confirms. Characters such as Wolf, Palutena, Joker, and Aegis rely on smash attacks to kill, which isn't easy by any means.
Which ultimate player would have the biggest entourage if that was the meta?
👍
Lucina up special is frame 6 OoS
5 actually
frame 1 invul
@@fromjahwluvonly in the air. Oos is frame 4
The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.
The characters are falling off because in the long term because they don’t have depth and thus can’t keep up in rate at meta development
Does Tony think human beings are robots? The game has been out for 5 years and you’re telling me much of the roster isn’t optimized. People drop combos because we don’t have perfect fingers, we don’t have perfect motor function, we don’t have perfect reflexes. This will always be a factor no matter how much a character is pushed to their limits. Not saying there isn’t room for improvement but some characters people point to being theoretically broken (like shulk) have yet to bring any significant results
found the midplayer
bro...
20 years later melee people are still improving and finding new meta. I think if thats the case for melee its even more so the case for Ultimate.
@@Alphahunter456 Ad hom, cute. I never said I was good, all I’m saying is there’s a cap to proficiency and that doesn’t manifest in perfect play, because that isn’t possible. Players like Riddles are are so strong because he’s a lot more consistent in his inputs and situational awareness than other Kazuyas, but let’s not pretend that he can simply end a match in 30 seconds every match, thats not how it works.
Top players are still getting much better at smash. MkLeo didn’t get worse at smash, every else just got better at a faster rate.
Fundiessss
Imo, characters like Palu, Wolf, and Luci are just going to progressively get worse as time goes on. In a game of win conditions, they just don't have any. (Believe me, I'm a Palu secondary, I know.)
Your wrong palu wolf and lucina are fine (I’m a palu secondary I know)
What frame 1 option does Lucina have?
He's referring to her frame 1 invincibility on aerial dolphin slash.
If fundies are dying then y’all are just bad💀💀💀. That’s the biggest john I’ve heard
They are dying, unfortunately
Ultimate players think fundamentals are either sitting still pr doing dashback.
Fundies? More like fundead lmao gottem
First